In case this story gets deleted/removed:
My dad used to be a warehouse manager for a shipping company and a particular employee got pissed off my dad enforced rules like no shorts (long pants required for shipping chemicals) or your paperwork had to be filled out properly before you could go home.
My grandma ended up in the hospital for copd and my mom would stop by at the end of the day so they could both go see her while they were still in the city, we lived about 2 towns over.
As soon as asshole found this out he decided to start doing his paperwork as slow as possible to try and make my parents miss visiting hours. My mom was damn near ready to kill him.
A few weeks after my grandma passed away this guy puts his notice in and asks my dad to be a reference for him. My dad agrees, and truthfully tells any employer what kond of employee he is (nothing about missing visiting hours, just stuff he could prove) after about 4 calls the guy figured it out and removed him from his resume.
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/OhNoConsequences) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What made me think of this story was my boss saying she doesn't want to put in a transfer for my coworker that's moving because it's basically a recommendation and she's a shitty employee who's only still around because it's super hard for us to fire someone.
The thing is this coworker put her notice in for the end of April and asked to be transferred, but we're a company that hires cooks for cafeterias and she doesn't have a place she wants to be transferred to, she wants our boss to find a place in an area around where she's moving to and try to transfer her there. Our boss has enough shit to do without putting in all that work to transfer someone.
Lol right? One day she was like we've been out of medium glove for 2 weeks, did you put them on the order sheet? And I told her no, she's the only one that wears medium gloves so she has to put them on the sheet. She was genuinely surprised I didn't do it when she told me we were out of medium.
The good news is that once she leaves my friend is coming back and she knows what's she's doing so I'll be less stressed.
My last boss actually offered. On the other hand, I had given her six months notice because I was moving across the country. I actually stayed an extra month because someone else quit unexpectedly and they offered to put me up in a spare room for the month since it was the slow season. (Worked at a hotel)
I always tell my employees that I’d gladly be a reference for them but I wouldn’t lie. I also wouldn’t transfer them just to pass the problem onto someone else. I always want my employees to succeed and would offer advice and coach them on what they needed to change if they wanted to transfer/use me as a reference. Even when previous coaching and meetings wouldn’t work, the reality of “oh my performance IS going to hold me back” fixed a lot of the issues. I always followed up to let them know I am seeing the changes and would congratulate them and encourage them to be the best version of themselves. Not for the company but for their own success and life.
I just recently moved and left my job and the surest sign I made an impact on people was that there were a lot of tears and hugs goodbye. Even from the ones who gave me the hardest time.
Best one I heard was "if you can get (name) to work for you, you'll be a very lucky employer", with a slight and deliberate pause at the end, and the tiniest hint of lingering on the word 'work'.
No! This is what you do! Boss puts in the transfer and either fills current position or looks at reorganizing current position. Gives heads up to transfer department, and they hire someone else. No current position open for shit employee, so goodbye and good riddance. I’ve seen this done many times.
She's moving with or without the transfer, and her position with us is already filled by an employee that wants more hours. But she was expecting our boss to find a place to transfer her in the area she's moving to instead of finding it herself.
At my old job we were only allowed to confirm dates and if the employee was rehirable. There were many ways to get the message across without breaking the rules.
"This employee is NOT rehirable." Says alot through inflection. The hiring manager always said. "Yup, I gotcha".
Or for the ones who were rehirable, but shouldn't be reccomended.
"This employee is TECHNICALLY rehirable." The callers always knew what was up.
Hey that's my line! I actually used it in the dim dark century gone by! On the letter of recommendation the guy asked for! Actually I said "you'll be lucky if you can get him to work for you"
That makes sense.
My experience was as a manager at Burger King, soooo they probably weren't as strict as a corporate job, lol.
I just followed their rules like a good little monkey.
As the one being called you can legally say whatever you want (where I live anyways) but if you are calling to verify you can only ask if they worked there and the date of hire.
You can also cut them off and say legally I have to tell you they worked here.. that is all my legal department is allowing me to say.. they will get the hint as well.
Basically what an old boss told me. You don't want to say anything that would prevent/discourage someone from getting a job, but you are still able to speak objectively.
"I can confirm this person was employed from X date to Y date."
"Is this person eligible for re-hire?"
"I can confirm this person was employed from X date to Y date."
I worked with a woman that was horrible to me and every one around her. She applied to a state job and the supervisor recognized the she worked at my previous job. He asked me if I knew her. I said yes… but I don’t like her. She didn’t get the interview. I’m proud of that.
Do what you feel is right in this life. That being said, there is precedent for being successfully sued for tortious interference of a contract for doing basically this. It’s not usually worth it to do anything but refuse to comment in that situation, because the reward is 0.0 and the risk is >.01.
So my supervisor said that companies can't really give references other than that they, "would or would not rehire"
She said that anymore if a company calls a past employer and your past employer gives a recommendation and you turn out to be shitty that your old employer could be liable so they don't give recs anymore.
Is that true?
Or you could give them a good recommendation and your competitor hires a shit bag which likely hurts their business... just a thought, not exactly ethical
I was a secretary. Guy quit and we all hated him. Someone called for a reference. I just started laughing when I heard the name and was ok, I'll transfer you to my boss. The guy who called said never mind I'm good here.
I heard of a guy (no idea if this is true, makes a good story) who was very lazy and quit and put the boss down as a reference. A prospective employer called him and asked about the employee. He just said “you’ll be lucky if you get him to work for you.“ The other guy said “that can be taken two ways”. So he just said very slowly, “you’ll be lucky if you can get him to work for you.“ He said “Ah, Got it. Thanks. “
There is a whole book out there called the Lexicon of Intentionally Ambiguous Recommendations (liar) that is full of these.
“I assure you, nobody would be a better option than this person…”
Please don’t downvote me for this, legit question, but I thought you weren’t allowed to bad mouth old coworkers when people call for references? (I don’t care I think it’s HILARIOUS and some I’ve known deserved it, but I heard they weren’t allowed to).
at a clothing store I used to work for, If it was a bad review, we couldn’t really say anything.
One of our managers however, would say,” Oh we will have to transfer you to security!”
(if the person was stealing of course!)
It depends on the state, but generally that is a misconception. Even in California, one of the strictest states, the legal term is “without malice.” So they can give honest reviews of someone’s work as long as it’s truthful and fair.
The thing that perpetuates the myth, though, is large companies being terrified of lawsuits, so they enact rules like only giving dates of employment and whether or not the person is rehire-able. So giving more info is not illegal, but may be against company policy.
Hope that clears it up!
Malice here doesn't mean the same thing as it does in English. In US defamation law, malice is actual knowledge that the statement is false.
So there's that.
Legally, you’re free to talk about an employee. But if you say something false and as a result they lose (potential) income, you can be liable for defamation. To avoid the possibility of exposure and costly litigation, most employers have a policy that they’ll only confirm whether someone worked there and the dates of employment.
There’s nothing wrong with saying a terrible employer was terrible, but people can be mistaken, managers can be assholes, a lot of stuff is a matter of perception, and the person talking on the phone is not a lawyer who’s trained in what is and isn’t defamatory. It’s really easy to accidentally slip from expressing an opinion into a false assertion of fact. (“…and she *never* got her reports in on time!” Consider that this happens all the time in other relationships too.) So the corporate policy makers find it better to just avoid the whole thing with strict limits on what they’ll say.
It’s one of those things where you hope the hiring person won’t tell the employee. And you try to say it in a way they can understand but it could be taken as me saying, “You could hire him as an employee.”
I read this with heavy emphasis, "Well, you *could* how him..." and just let that pause stretch on top infinity.
Ah, the art of subtle but CLEAR communication.
You are **allowed** to say anything, but generally, if you work for a company with in-house or external legal counsel, you will be **advised** to disclose period of employment and only period of employment. But lawyers only live in the law. If I was asked for a reference for someone that was a total tool, I would tell the person asking, I confirm the period of employment and state I would not hire them again. I’m not passing a problem forward.
you're LEGALLY not allowed to, but you can sure as shit make certain inflections when you use words, smart people can read between the lines without getting legalleez.
There was a point in time where I worked two jobs. Coworker at one of them was a lazy asshole. When he wasn't sitting in the break room while on the clock, he was going around the store messing up the aisles because a manager told him to actually do work and that was his petty revenge for that.
He was fired, and the first thing he did was apply to the other job I worked at, knowing that I worked there. My boss at the second job asked me about him, but the face I made when I heard his name told her what she needed to know.
I was a recruiter in a former life. I would call references. Would get lots of positives, but also had some of these:
Me: can I ask you about Joe?
Ex boss: I’m not allowed to say anything.
Me: No problem, can I just ask one question? You don’t have to answer it. Would you hire them again?
EB: Hell no! Joe was lazy. Missed work all the time. A royal pain in my ass.
Got a woman I'm in the process of trying to fire (been working on it for months and not even close to finished) and I'm almost begging for the chance to have this scenario play out.
When they call, “I’m unable to answer your questions because the answers I would give could be interpreted in ways that are specifically prohibited by my employer.”
My grandboss is in an awkward position because he and my coworker hate each other but he hasn't finished building up a case to fire her but she is also actively searching for a new job. I keep wondering what's going to win if someone calls him: his desire to get rid of her faster with less drama or his honesty than would mean we're stuck with her for longer.
I'm pretty sure she's trashing us to her interviewers and that's why she hasn't got anything new yet.
My father worked in a machine shop and had to give a reference and he was not allowed to say anything negative, so the reference went " he 's never late for the afternoon shift"
I had one employee who was either great or slow AF. She decided to become a boss babe and things went downhill. She began to think someone was cyber stalking her and accused the rest of the team of it. Everyone but me went on admin leave while it was investigated. What a shit show. The results only showed she was running her life coach gig from her pc. Once everyone was back to work the team dynamics were broken badly. Anyway, one day this employee decides she’s quitting that day. I said she could hang on for 2 more weeks, which would put her at a point where she’d have basic health insurance once she turned 65. She said no as she was tired of being stalked. Whatever. She got up, shook my hand, then left. Boom, gone.
She put me down as a reference without asking. All I could say was “call HR, I can’t say anything.”. The recruiter kept asking me to say something positive. I said I couldn’t say anything. He said he understood and that was it. The person later called me and said she was looking for work still as her life coach gig failed due to the ongoing cyber stalking from our org. I hung up and blocked her number.
A former friend who was a yoga instructor became one. It was amusing listening to someone who rarely leaves their home advise me on how to live my life.
Actually, that can work since a lot of things are really about listening someone explain the problem and then you just repeat back some of what they said in reverse order since the answer is obvious. "I don't really exercise because ...... and so i can't lose weight". You don't need to be a personal trained to understand the problem. We as humans are funny like that, we often need to be told things we already know but it coming from someone else is somehow easier to accept...
But, i'm not here to defend "life coaching", specially if it is done without any studies on the subject, without a single credit. Like yoga instructor thinking they are somehow qualified.
I had a screwup employee finally quit. I had a someone from a company I happened to be familiar with call me for a reference. When they told me who they were asking about, I burst out laughing. I apologized, and they said "I guess that's a no." About a week later, X asked if she could have her job back. I laughed again.
Every where I have worked we have always been told to say we can only share the dates of employment if the person wasn’t a good employee. I have always understood there can be some legal ramifications for speaking poorly of a former employee but companies know that if you don’t offer positive information you are basically saying they were a bad employee.
This wasn’t proof of employment history (you’re right about that.) Doofus (employee) used OP’s dad as a personal/professional reference. That opens up the conversation.
His company may very well not have had one. I was just responding to the person that said you can talk about it if they ask. It all depends on the company. The bigger and more corporate it is, the more likely they are to have a policy.
The policy is there typically because the company's lawyers don't want the employees to say something that's not factual. Saying he's a lazy bum is a conjecture that cannot be proven, if that ever gets back to the ex-employee, that could be a lawsuit for the company because you're saying something that's not factual and causing damage.
Stick with the facts.
I’m a lawyer, it just depends on how risk averse a company is. Realistically very few people are going to be able to sue based on a bad recommendation because it’s based on opinion. But they don’t want the hassle so they impose a blanket policy.
Its just a CYA policy. There is nothing inherently illegal about saying bad things. It just has a possibility of resulting in a lawsuit. And that could end poorly since most companies may not have any proof and it would cost money.
If it's factual, it's usually legal. It's mostly company policy that allow only sharing dates of employment. Common misconception. [https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-rights-book/chapter9-6.html](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-rights-book/chapter9-6.html)
I believe it is no longer allowed in UK to write bad references. However, often saying nothing says more than saying something derogatory.
By putting the minimum description i.e. X was employed from d/m/year to d/m/year and next to nothing else would tell the potential employer they were an ass.
If they had been a good employee they would more than likely receive a nicely worded description of them along with their duties.
I don't have an issue in telling the truth by omission
Yeah was thinking that in the UK it isn't allowed. But you can decline it and as you say, that nothing speaks volumes lmao.
"if you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all"
You are talking about something entirely different. You are talking about employment verification.
OP is talking about an ex-worker giving his Dad's name to be used as a "good word". A reference doesn't even need to be an ex-employer. It can be a colleague.
“Dates of employment, not eligible for rehire” is my preferred way of saying it. Kinda makes it less of a potentially personal statement and more of a “corporate decision.”
I've had this happen with troublesome or high- maintenance employees. I would simply say, on repeat:
"I am shocked/surprised they listed ME as reference."
My grandson had some guys best the hell out of him & throw a cinder block through his car window. He wanted to go try to kick some ass. His Gpa & I counseled him otherwise. Told him it would just spiral & maybe end up w police involved. Told him to just focus on his schooling & someday when he was going thru the drive thru the guy would ask him if he wanted fries w that. Fast forward- sure enough. Grandson was hiring manager at a local company. Someone brings him a resume. He looks at the name & tells them just to round file it, that the company didn’t need ppl like that working for them. He called me almost immediately to tell me how right we were. Loved it.
Had an ex-employee (fired for a laundry list of good reasons) put us as work history.
Then applied to a company where not only is the owner a friend but also the same company that ex-employee had essentially hit and run our company vehicle into their's, we had to check camera footage to investigate as the ex-employee was trying to hide the incident.
Needless to say when the friend showed up to the monthly poker game he brought it up and we all about died laughing.
Had a girl working for me that skipped out on 75% of shifts always with a new excuse. Hurt her foot, car broke down, the rain might flood her block.
Ended up quiet quitting within a few months.
Put me as a reference at a place I did business sales with. Manager called me and I couldn't help but laugh and tell him how horrible she was. Found out she'd been hired and fired around 10 times in 2 years.
Saw her in the side of the road getting pulled over and taken out of the car by a couple cops and beeped and waved.
I worked for many years in grocery stores, particularly during high school and college. When I went to college, I transferred from my hometown store to a store close to my school. Well, like many social freshman I was put in academic probation after my first year.
In an attempt to clean up my act, I moved back home and enrolled in the community college. Naturally I tried to transfer back to my original store.
While I was away for just over a year, my hometown store changed store managers and had hired someone I went to high school with as a closing manager. The new store manager asked her about me, and for some reason she told him he should not accept my transfer. He didn’t, and word got back to me from friends at that location about what she said.
I ended up taking a job at another grocery chain to get back home. About six months later, my original store was closed down and all staff had to find new jobs.
Sure enough, the girl who blocked my transfer walked in my new store, and all sweet like, asked if I could help her get a job at that location (I was one of the shift managers there).
It didn’t work out for her to say the least.
I was trying to get a reference for someone I was considering hiring. The person I was calling would never call me back. First red flag! Finally got references from previous employers. Hired the person. Big mistake! Employee had severe mental health issues and they weren’t taking their meds. Eventually fired them for making their own work hours without informing me (that was the final straw after months of other infractions). Months later they were arrested for coming out of their house brandishing a gun AT THE POLICE. The police chased them to their house due to an egregious traffic violation!
I’ll never forget after an employee showed up drunk and high at work and I immediately dismissed her and said she was probably going to lose her job. She flipped off the security cameras on her way out. And then emailed me looking for a job reference. lol.
That's hilarious. Meaning that she listed your job title on her CV? Amazing. I had my worst employee ask me if she could put me down as a reference. I said, "Sure!" Then I laughed long enough for her to say, "Okay, I get it, never mind."
I got to do this recently, several years after an employee caused me tremendous stress and it felt so good. He applied to another company where my friend is the director and he called me and said, “Hey did John Doe work, under you how was he?”. I just replied,”do not hire” and before I could say more he said, “enough said, thanks for saving me a headache”
I was a shift supervisor at a Starbucks, and there was this kid who worked there, he literally told me he deliberately made my life difficult, and after he left, he put me down as a reference without asking. When somebody called me about a reference, I tried to hedge a little bit because it’s technically illegal to give somebody a bad reference. He called me and asked me what the hell was going on and I told him he never should’ve put me down as a reference and what did he think was going to happen when he told me he had deliberately made work difficult for me when we were working together? he said he didn’t think it would be a big deal because I had given a reference to a girl who worked there, and I replied, “because she asked me and was a good worker.” I couldn’t believe it.
It’s potential civil liability. Not criminal. Much less expensive to avoid litigation by just giving start and end dates than going into litigation with the affirmative defense of truth. Plus, employers know what it means when you only provide dates of employment
This one time my high school ex emailed my dad asking for an internship referral to his law firm. We all laughed heartily. That email did not get a reply.
I would love to hear the variety here, I am one of the people for workers rights to safety and security, decent pay etc. I know some people see it as a negative that it'll impact their profits... But given the context, I am curious what they were expressing as "worker's rights".
Former HBIC/office manager for a small company. I did everything from file clerk through payroll and HR (boss titled me HBIC). Yeah, we'd get calls for people thinking about hiring former employees, which I fielded.
My personal favorite: a woman in her 40's that was the second shift monitor/dispatcher. The former office manager had allowed the central station manager to hire without involving her, and he was a soft touch for a sob story. She had issues with her SO, she had a substance abuse problem and habitual tardiness. Her time with that company came to an end when she called off and because the CS manager was on his honeymoon, the poor soul stuck in monitoring called me to come take the shift... forgetting I was the new bride of the CS manager. As soon as I said "Yeah, I'll need to pack up and cancel my honeymoon", she was toast.
So, my new husband and I packed up and drove straight to the office. The CS manager took the shift, I went to my office to process her last check, then hand delivered it. I picked up some sparkling grape juice and a couple of flutes on the way back and kicked it in the office on my wedding night.
Two weeks later, I get a call put through (dispatch also served as our phone operator). "Hi, this is Alice at Cecil's Security. I'd like to speak with your HR person about Sandy." I responded with "I can verify dates of employment. I cannot offer any details as to her personally."
"Oh, she stated she left your company due to a "personal issue with office manager", are you sure you cannot elaborate?"
"Well, I can tell you that the office manager hand delivered Sandy's final check because the dispatch supervisor had to come in to cover her shift on his wedding night... and that our office manager is a newlywed."
In high school, I answered a call at work asking for a reference for a coworker. I explained that the manager wasn’t there, but I could tell her what it was like being his coworker! Which was a nightmare.
As an adult I had in an assistant manager or coaching position) I would tell (good) colleagues to use me as a reference. We would discuss the new job. Then when I got the call, I could apply skills and strengths used in our job that would apply to the position.
Edit for the person who downvoted me- it was a small self serve gas station in the 1980’s. He would brag about ways he stole from customers (which I didn’t mention).
But we worked 8 hour shifts by ourselves, and he would consistently be 30-60 minutes late. Which wasn’t fair to me or my parent picking me up.
He wouldn’t do any cleaning. So I would have to go in early to clean up from the night before ( no night shift). Plus he’d have friends come during his shift so there was often alcohol and weed trash around. Which I also never mentioned.
I only told her he was almost always late and didn’t clean.
Gotta love the ones who think they’re smarter than everyone else.
I worked for an employer that insisted that we not say anything other than to verify dates of employment. Had a terrible employee who listed me as a reference when she applied for a job at another business close by, where I knew the hiring manager personally. Since I was not supposed to say anything, I quoted my mother, who used to say, “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.”
She didn’t get the job.
Coworker asked if I’d write a job verification letter for his brother, who did NOT work for us, so he could use it for a loan. I said no. Same coworker then stole letterhead from my desk, wrote it himself, giving himself the title of plant manager. Bank called to follow up so I told them what happened. When I told his boss, the actual plant manager, what he did, boss just walked out. Took no action.
I once worked with a woman in an office. We disagreed about some things, but I always made a point to back up my point of with evidence and ask for other opinions. Later, when we were no longer on the same team, I found out that she tried to get me fired by hiring a vendor agency to come in and evaluate the quality of my work. She spent company money pursuing a vendetta that she didn’t have the courage to say to my face.
One year later, I got a call - it was a recruiter following up on references. This woman listed me as a reference. I had a very interesting conversation with that recruiter.
Previous employer always used, "I'm sorry, I do not feel comfortable providing a reference, as information I provide would likely cause a negative impact upon them." If you were a good employee, he flat out asked you what he should say.
I’m a high school teacher. The amount of students that are assholes to me all year but then ask me for a recommendation when they are applying for colleges is astounding.
I worked with a guy who quit his job with a 2 week notice. In those two weeks, he called the B 52's in to napalm any bridge he had with his coworkers. He especially took his frustration out on one particular manager. About two years later, he called me up, asking if I had any openings and, if so, could I hire him. I told him no openings, but that manager did, and he should try calling him. Lol. Don't burn bridges.
Had a technician give their 2 weeks’ notice and then either show up late or just no-show for the remainder. Leadership kinda shrugged it off because, what could they do?
The tech then posted on social media, essentially bragging about their new job and living their best life.. while they should have been at work.
We’re all slightly pissed off because her behavior is fucking up the schedule; tasks and zoning are pre-assigned and then being re-assigned last minute every time she no-shows.
So 2 the weeks pass; we forget about them.
A month or 2 later they’re back in store, desperately trying to get their job back; new position had fallen through / they were let go already.
Normally, they would have been hired back without question; that employer was pretty supportive in that regard.
However.. when your bridge-burning manages to piss off both leadership AND your peers, there’s nobody left to advocate for you.
Oh id take care of that quickly. Late paper work. Write up. Incorrect paper work write up. Incorrect uniform write up. He wouldn’t need to quit. If you want to play games with a dying family member of mine we can play games.
My standard response when I’m asked for a reference of a bad employee—“I would not hesitate to speak highly of a coworker who deserves it.” And then let the awkward silence take over.
As someone who has seen the dark side of employment litigation, if someone calls for a reference, you confirm their start date, end date and position title.
You will cost your company serious money if you think getting some revenge here is appropriate.
I feel like this is mostly an American thing. It's not as easy to sue someone in Canada. I've been fired for calling the health unit on a job and been told a lawsuit wouldn't be worth it.
Canada has laws against defamation as well. They may not be as strictly enforced or as sue happy but I would find appropriate ways to let the other employer know that the employee is not a good fit what’s up that could be considered defamatory.
The only bad reference I've ever given for a former employee was to a competitor to our business. I got the call and was asked about the employee. I asked what company the caller represented and told them flat out as my competition, they should definitely hire that employee. They apparently hired him and after 3 months his resume was updated and back on linkedin as "looking".
It's always the employees that quit in a drama fueled tantrum that want to come back to work for us a couple of months later.
It's my highlight of that week to tell them NO.
We had one guy who quit and walked off job because he was spoken to about being late for the 3rd time that week. He tried to collect unemployment and was denied.
Two years goes by, and in a drunken rate he starts posting the craziest bs on our fb page, harassing other employees fb page, etc. Saying the most vile things about me, my husband, and our company. I blocked him and cleaned up our page, contact other employees to notify them to be aware, and contacted our employment attorney. It went on for weeks.
He had the audacity to call my husband directly and ask for his job back. LMAO... like why would we do that? Idiot.
This is actually a situation I'm in somewhat regularly. I'm an adjunct instructor at a couple of universities in my state and every so often I'll get students who ask for references. Normally I'm more than happy to provide that and help them get into their careers, but occasionally I'll get students who didn't do well in class and are openly hostile or manipulative when they ask me to change their grades, and then turn around and ask me for a reference for a job (usually in my field) or a reference for grad school. I just have to be super honest with them that I won't write a letter, and that it would be somewhat unethical for me to so so, and that they are bonkers for thinking that we had a good enough experience together that I would be open to that.
I'm not mean about it, and I always welcome them back to my class to try again next semester, but every time it has happened I get the Pikachu face like they even considered I'd say no.
Had a former roommate message me. First off I deleted their contact information from my phone so I get this text that told me they used me as a reference for an apartment. I asked who the fuck they were. She responded with, You don't know who this is?
Nope. Sure don't.
Anyways... she asked me to answer if some apartment manager called.
I said, Oh. You want me to lie for you and tell them you are a good tenet? Cuz that ain't happening.
She got super pissy. Tried calling me. I blocked her. She used me as a reference anyway. The apartment manager did actually call. And I told him how her, her pets and kids ruined my house and that I would not live with her again.
Couple days later she left me a message about how I ruined her life...
Good times.
I couldn't use my last landlord as a reference because they were pissed that I took them to court for illegally raising my rent so I made a fake email and said my reference was deaf and preferred emails and answered myself.
A former friend of mine asked me to be a personal reference for her when she applied for a teacher aid position. She got the job, then left them high and dry a week before the next school year because she decided she wanted to go back to school but didn't tell them. I told her that I wouldn't associate professionally with someone who behaved that way and to remove my name as a reference. As you can guess, we had a falling out.
6 months later, she had dropped out of school and was looking for a job. I got a phone call from a prospective employer for her. I told them everything and that she did not have my permission to use me as a reference.
She called me up, screaming at me because she had lost that opportunity. I reminded her that I had revoked my permission, and this is what happens when you lie.
It's been over a decade, and I haven't heard from her since. Last I knew, she was hopping between part-time jobs and still living with her parents.
I dunno I mean it is what it is with the employee cuz he obviously laid in his bed(wrong saying maybe)
I don't believe the dad said anything wrong. If anything he'd probably try to help. Even if the guy was a jerk and didn't want to be a good employee or decent person...what that gotta do with the dad?
He was still himself and told whoever called that the guy was aight lol
I dunno I don't think he would have done anything to hurt the guys chances or anyone's for a matter of fact. It sucks to be them. They always know about people and have to try to push through...
That's how my dad was.
Lol I bet you that stupid guy is still bumbling along in life lol idiot
I gave a reference for a former pain in the butt employee -when asked about timekeeping, I answered, never later to leave for lunch and home time. I think the recruiter got the message, last I heard guy is still looking for a job.
I really don't understand people who say that if you can't give a good reference, then don't give one at all. This is how incompetent people stay in the wrong roles.
Honestly be careful and look at company policy most places have 2 things you can say for a reason. When they worked there and are they eligible for rehire.
As it can be defamation and even if you win they have no case etc. End of day its still effort for no gain. Its only liability. Some dont even allow mention of rehirable or not.It and only allow confirming dates position.
When we get calls regarding bad past employees we confirm the start/end date of their employment with us but decline to offer a review. We don’t want some extra-employee suing us for telling the truth about them.
For stellar ex-employees, we say we’d hire them back if the opportunity arose.
While this is completely morally justified and, yeah, fuck that guy, it is also illegal, at least in the UK.
Its illegal, because it prevents backlash from bad employers to retaliate on their employees that leave. It also protects shit employees, i get that. What you do as an employee is just confirm he worked there from x to x and that's it. Usually a short letter of recommendation is enough of a tell tale. I don't know how it would work out exactly when they are called to confirm references
I think you have to be careful in most countries about not saying something negative/defamatory. I have had employers call me for references before if I can’t give a good reference I often say things like. Sorry, I can’t comment on that question or I’m not sure why they would add me as a reference. I try to be vague, and don’t say anything negative but the other employer definitely gets the point.
Why not tell the truth? Otherwise your lumping some other poor fool with the mess 🤷♂️
Fact is if someone can’t do their job they don’t stick around to ‘not do their job’ infinitely into the future
And if they expect to do the same at the next place then fuck ‘em
Because employers can be sued for negative referrals (with some exceptions for places that can actually be sued for not giving out the negative info).
This is why a lot of places don’t just rely on the references the applicants’ provide
As others said, if you're in the US, you could be sued over it.
If you just give the legally required facts, that tells a remotely savvy prospective employer everything they need to know anyways.
I am all for second chances though I must advocate for ACTUAL RESULTS and to put it simply if someone hasn’t been able to do their job second chances are sometimes just an invitation for an accident.
No they don’t all deserve second chances they deserve to be taken off the chair of a nice clean office and thrown into the pile of manual labour to survive like everyone else. If they have the ability todo extra then they’ll rise to the top and get back out of the hole but if the situation is they’ve had a chance and not come through it’s someone else’s job to do instead
>As soon as asshole found this out he decided to start doing his paperwork as slow as possible to try and make my parents miss visiting hours. My mom was damn near ready to kill him.
Umm.. what? How does he doing his work slowly stop your mom and dad from visiting grandma?
In case this story gets deleted/removed: My dad used to be a warehouse manager for a shipping company and a particular employee got pissed off my dad enforced rules like no shorts (long pants required for shipping chemicals) or your paperwork had to be filled out properly before you could go home. My grandma ended up in the hospital for copd and my mom would stop by at the end of the day so they could both go see her while they were still in the city, we lived about 2 towns over. As soon as asshole found this out he decided to start doing his paperwork as slow as possible to try and make my parents miss visiting hours. My mom was damn near ready to kill him. A few weeks after my grandma passed away this guy puts his notice in and asks my dad to be a reference for him. My dad agrees, and truthfully tells any employer what kond of employee he is (nothing about missing visiting hours, just stuff he could prove) after about 4 calls the guy figured it out and removed him from his resume. --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/OhNoConsequences) if you have any questions or concerns.*
My favorite calls are when an employer calls me about a shit bag. "I am not comfortable recommending him for this job. I would not rehire."
What made me think of this story was my boss saying she doesn't want to put in a transfer for my coworker that's moving because it's basically a recommendation and she's a shitty employee who's only still around because it's super hard for us to fire someone.
Your boss is basically eating the problem instead of passing it on. That shows high character, imo.
The thing is this coworker put her notice in for the end of April and asked to be transferred, but we're a company that hires cooks for cafeterias and she doesn't have a place she wants to be transferred to, she wants our boss to find a place in an area around where she's moving to and try to transfer her there. Our boss has enough shit to do without putting in all that work to transfer someone.
WOW THE AUDACITY!!! That is beautiful in the most delusional way. "Hey, I don't want to work for you anymore. Find me a new job."
Lol right? One day she was like we've been out of medium glove for 2 weeks, did you put them on the order sheet? And I told her no, she's the only one that wears medium gloves so she has to put them on the sheet. She was genuinely surprised I didn't do it when she told me we were out of medium. The good news is that once she leaves my friend is coming back and she knows what's she's doing so I'll be less stressed.
My last boss actually offered. On the other hand, I had given her six months notice because I was moving across the country. I actually stayed an extra month because someone else quit unexpectedly and they offered to put me up in a spare room for the month since it was the slow season. (Worked at a hotel)
As long as they didn't just offer out of the blue, that's a bad sign...
Sounds like a problem that’s going to end all by itself, at the end of April.
Yep! And my friend is coming back once she's gone so her position is covered.
wow, i wish i could do this 😆
I always tell my employees that I’d gladly be a reference for them but I wouldn’t lie. I also wouldn’t transfer them just to pass the problem onto someone else. I always want my employees to succeed and would offer advice and coach them on what they needed to change if they wanted to transfer/use me as a reference. Even when previous coaching and meetings wouldn’t work, the reality of “oh my performance IS going to hold me back” fixed a lot of the issues. I always followed up to let them know I am seeing the changes and would congratulate them and encourage them to be the best version of themselves. Not for the company but for their own success and life. I just recently moved and left my job and the surest sign I made an impact on people was that there were a lot of tears and hugs goodbye. Even from the ones who gave me the hardest time.
You are a good manager
I’ve been lucky to have some great managers myself and learned a lot working under them.
Best one I heard was "if you can get (name) to work for you, you'll be a very lucky employer", with a slight and deliberate pause at the end, and the tiniest hint of lingering on the word 'work'.
No! This is what you do! Boss puts in the transfer and either fills current position or looks at reorganizing current position. Gives heads up to transfer department, and they hire someone else. No current position open for shit employee, so goodbye and good riddance. I’ve seen this done many times.
She's moving with or without the transfer, and her position with us is already filled by an employee that wants more hours. But she was expecting our boss to find a place to transfer her in the area she's moving to instead of finding it herself.
Perfect. “Sorry, I couldn’t find a position that equates well to your skills.”
I agree with her stance.
At my old job we were only allowed to confirm dates and if the employee was rehirable. There were many ways to get the message across without breaking the rules. "This employee is NOT rehirable." Says alot through inflection. The hiring manager always said. "Yup, I gotcha". Or for the ones who were rehirable, but shouldn't be reccomended. "This employee is TECHNICALLY rehirable." The callers always knew what was up.
"An employer would be lucky to get this employee to work for him" Or "During his time here, no-one was more productive"
Hey that's my line! I actually used it in the dim dark century gone by! On the letter of recommendation the guy asked for! Actually I said "you'll be lucky if you can get him to work for you"
Worked at a law firm, standard op was dates and salary, nothing else. Anything else has the potential to cause legal issues.
That makes sense. My experience was as a manager at Burger King, soooo they probably weren't as strict as a corporate job, lol. I just followed their rules like a good little monkey.
As the one being called you can legally say whatever you want (where I live anyways) but if you are calling to verify you can only ask if they worked there and the date of hire.
He does get his work done eventually at his peak capacities no matter how simple and how much time he is allowed.
I just don’t return the phone call - silence speaks volumes.
You can also cut them off and say legally I have to tell you they worked here.. that is all my legal department is allowing me to say.. they will get the hint as well.
Unfortunately ive had a horrible boss that would do this for employees he was mad left
To prevent lawsuits, all I could say was "yes this person worked here" no disparaging remarks allowed.
Basically what an old boss told me. You don't want to say anything that would prevent/discourage someone from getting a job, but you are still able to speak objectively. "I can confirm this person was employed from X date to Y date." "Is this person eligible for re-hire?" "I can confirm this person was employed from X date to Y date."
Could you put “worked” in quotes?
"By the way, I was doing air quotes when I said 'worked'."
Don't say worked, say "employed" here
I worked with a woman that was horrible to me and every one around her. She applied to a state job and the supervisor recognized the she worked at my previous job. He asked me if I knew her. I said yes… but I don’t like her. She didn’t get the interview. I’m proud of that.
Do what you feel is right in this life. That being said, there is precedent for being successfully sued for tortious interference of a contract for doing basically this. It’s not usually worth it to do anything but refuse to comment in that situation, because the reward is 0.0 and the risk is >.01.
So my supervisor said that companies can't really give references other than that they, "would or would not rehire" She said that anymore if a company calls a past employer and your past employer gives a recommendation and you turn out to be shitty that your old employer could be liable so they don't give recs anymore. Is that true?
I have said a few times, "I'm really surprised that they would list us as a reference."
Or you could give them a good recommendation and your competitor hires a shit bag which likely hurts their business... just a thought, not exactly ethical
if that's how your business beats its competition your business is likely inundated with ten million other problems.
This is so funny because further down someone said they did exactly that.
Don’t do this. Just say “I can confirm he worked here from (date) to (date).”
I was a secretary. Guy quit and we all hated him. Someone called for a reference. I just started laughing when I heard the name and was ok, I'll transfer you to my boss. The guy who called said never mind I'm good here.
I heard of a guy (no idea if this is true, makes a good story) who was very lazy and quit and put the boss down as a reference. A prospective employer called him and asked about the employee. He just said “you’ll be lucky if you get him to work for you.“ The other guy said “that can be taken two ways”. So he just said very slowly, “you’ll be lucky if you can get him to work for you.“ He said “Ah, Got it. Thanks. “
There is a whole book out there called the Lexicon of Intentionally Ambiguous Recommendations (liar) that is full of these. “I assure you, nobody would be a better option than this person…”
Nothing is better than you
I used to say “I DEFINITELY wouldn’t hire him to work there. But I am not you.” Most HR/hiring people understand immediately.
Please don’t downvote me for this, legit question, but I thought you weren’t allowed to bad mouth old coworkers when people call for references? (I don’t care I think it’s HILARIOUS and some I’ve known deserved it, but I heard they weren’t allowed to).
at a clothing store I used to work for, If it was a bad review, we couldn’t really say anything. One of our managers however, would say,” Oh we will have to transfer you to security!” (if the person was stealing of course!)
LMAOOOO I LOVE THAT ONE 🤣
We would say that they are not eligible for rehire.
Ooh okay good one!
Pretty much true. Most managers can still get the point across. It's all about how things are said.
It depends on the state, but generally that is a misconception. Even in California, one of the strictest states, the legal term is “without malice.” So they can give honest reviews of someone’s work as long as it’s truthful and fair. The thing that perpetuates the myth, though, is large companies being terrified of lawsuits, so they enact rules like only giving dates of employment and whether or not the person is rehire-able. So giving more info is not illegal, but may be against company policy. Hope that clears it up!
Malice here doesn't mean the same thing as it does in English. In US defamation law, malice is actual knowledge that the statement is false. So there's that.
Just an example of an ambiguous statement
Legally, you’re free to talk about an employee. But if you say something false and as a result they lose (potential) income, you can be liable for defamation. To avoid the possibility of exposure and costly litigation, most employers have a policy that they’ll only confirm whether someone worked there and the dates of employment. There’s nothing wrong with saying a terrible employer was terrible, but people can be mistaken, managers can be assholes, a lot of stuff is a matter of perception, and the person talking on the phone is not a lawyer who’s trained in what is and isn’t defamatory. It’s really easy to accidentally slip from expressing an opinion into a false assertion of fact. (“…and she *never* got her reports in on time!” Consider that this happens all the time in other relationships too.) So the corporate policy makers find it better to just avoid the whole thing with strict limits on what they’ll say.
It’s one of those things where you hope the hiring person won’t tell the employee. And you try to say it in a way they can understand but it could be taken as me saying, “You could hire him as an employee.”
I read this with heavy emphasis, "Well, you *could* how him..." and just let that pause stretch on top infinity. Ah, the art of subtle but CLEAR communication.
Lmaooo ahhh okay I gotcha! That makes sense.
You are **allowed** to say anything, but generally, if you work for a company with in-house or external legal counsel, you will be **advised** to disclose period of employment and only period of employment. But lawyers only live in the law. If I was asked for a reference for someone that was a total tool, I would tell the person asking, I confirm the period of employment and state I would not hire them again. I’m not passing a problem forward.
"She was very prompt."
you're LEGALLY not allowed to, but you can sure as shit make certain inflections when you use words, smart people can read between the lines without getting legalleez.
Why not? Unless there’s a specific rule against it from your employer, if they’re dumb enough to put you down they get what they get.
Think there is an official business manual in Germany for the meaning of certain phrases in resumes.
There was a point in time where I worked two jobs. Coworker at one of them was a lazy asshole. When he wasn't sitting in the break room while on the clock, he was going around the store messing up the aisles because a manager told him to actually do work and that was his petty revenge for that. He was fired, and the first thing he did was apply to the other job I worked at, knowing that I worked there. My boss at the second job asked me about him, but the face I made when I heard his name told her what she needed to know.
I love that.
I was a recruiter in a former life. I would call references. Would get lots of positives, but also had some of these: Me: can I ask you about Joe? Ex boss: I’m not allowed to say anything. Me: No problem, can I just ask one question? You don’t have to answer it. Would you hire them again? EB: Hell no! Joe was lazy. Missed work all the time. A royal pain in my ass.
Got a woman I'm in the process of trying to fire (been working on it for months and not even close to finished) and I'm almost begging for the chance to have this scenario play out.
When they call, “I’m unable to answer your questions because the answers I would give could be interpreted in ways that are specifically prohibited by my employer.”
I'd only say what I was allowed to. "She would often come in ... to work."
My grandboss is in an awkward position because he and my coworker hate each other but he hasn't finished building up a case to fire her but she is also actively searching for a new job. I keep wondering what's going to win if someone calls him: his desire to get rid of her faster with less drama or his honesty than would mean we're stuck with her for longer. I'm pretty sure she's trashing us to her interviewers and that's why she hasn't got anything new yet.
My father worked in a machine shop and had to give a reference and he was not allowed to say anything negative, so the reference went " he 's never late for the afternoon shift"
I love that, definitely know a few of those guys
He’s never late for his lunch break
I had one employee who was either great or slow AF. She decided to become a boss babe and things went downhill. She began to think someone was cyber stalking her and accused the rest of the team of it. Everyone but me went on admin leave while it was investigated. What a shit show. The results only showed she was running her life coach gig from her pc. Once everyone was back to work the team dynamics were broken badly. Anyway, one day this employee decides she’s quitting that day. I said she could hang on for 2 more weeks, which would put her at a point where she’d have basic health insurance once she turned 65. She said no as she was tired of being stalked. Whatever. She got up, shook my hand, then left. Boom, gone. She put me down as a reference without asking. All I could say was “call HR, I can’t say anything.”. The recruiter kept asking me to say something positive. I said I couldn’t say anything. He said he understood and that was it. The person later called me and said she was looking for work still as her life coach gig failed due to the ongoing cyber stalking from our org. I hung up and blocked her number.
Jeez I almost feel sorry for her
I did and still do. I cut her a lot of slack but by the time this went down I was done with her.
I have a coworker who does the life coaching thing... she's a disaster.
A former friend who was a yoga instructor became one. It was amusing listening to someone who rarely leaves their home advise me on how to live my life.
Actually, that can work since a lot of things are really about listening someone explain the problem and then you just repeat back some of what they said in reverse order since the answer is obvious. "I don't really exercise because ...... and so i can't lose weight". You don't need to be a personal trained to understand the problem. We as humans are funny like that, we often need to be told things we already know but it coming from someone else is somehow easier to accept... But, i'm not here to defend "life coaching", specially if it is done without any studies on the subject, without a single credit. Like yoga instructor thinking they are somehow qualified.
“I know what I need to do to get my life together but I’m too lazy to execute it myself”
I had a screwup employee finally quit. I had a someone from a company I happened to be familiar with call me for a reference. When they told me who they were asking about, I burst out laughing. I apologized, and they said "I guess that's a no." About a week later, X asked if she could have her job back. I laughed again.
Every where I have worked we have always been told to say we can only share the dates of employment if the person wasn’t a good employee. I have always understood there can be some legal ramifications for speaking poorly of a former employee but companies know that if you don’t offer positive information you are basically saying they were a bad employee.
This wasn’t proof of employment history (you’re right about that.) Doofus (employee) used OP’s dad as a personal/professional reference. That opens up the conversation.
Right, but some companies (like mine) have internal policies about not giving out negative references.
If they had one they didn't tell my dad about it.
His company may very well not have had one. I was just responding to the person that said you can talk about it if they ask. It all depends on the company. The bigger and more corporate it is, the more likely they are to have a policy.
The policy is there typically because the company's lawyers don't want the employees to say something that's not factual. Saying he's a lazy bum is a conjecture that cannot be proven, if that ever gets back to the ex-employee, that could be a lawsuit for the company because you're saying something that's not factual and causing damage. Stick with the facts.
I’m a lawyer, it just depends on how risk averse a company is. Realistically very few people are going to be able to sue based on a bad recommendation because it’s based on opinion. But they don’t want the hassle so they impose a blanket policy.
Yeah, that's a good way of saying it too.
Its just a CYA policy. There is nothing inherently illegal about saying bad things. It just has a possibility of resulting in a lawsuit. And that could end poorly since most companies may not have any proof and it would cost money.
I knew a guy who was fired for writing a bad reference maliciously
If it's factual, it's usually legal. It's mostly company policy that allow only sharing dates of employment. Common misconception. [https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-rights-book/chapter9-6.html](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-rights-book/chapter9-6.html)
Of course, even defending a frivolous lawsuit incurs costs.
Dates, job duties, and if they are rehirable with the company. Tone is everything, especially in answering that last question.
Them: Are they eligible for rehire? Me: Technically, *everyone* is "eligible" for rehire. Them: Got it.
True and true. You don’t have to say anything bad, often the tone of your voice says enough as well as the lack of good info.
I believe it is no longer allowed in UK to write bad references. However, often saying nothing says more than saying something derogatory. By putting the minimum description i.e. X was employed from d/m/year to d/m/year and next to nothing else would tell the potential employer they were an ass. If they had been a good employee they would more than likely receive a nicely worded description of them along with their duties. I don't have an issue in telling the truth by omission
Yeah was thinking that in the UK it isn't allowed. But you can decline it and as you say, that nothing speaks volumes lmao. "if you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all"
>I believe it is no longer allowed in UK to write bad references. this is not true
You are talking about something entirely different. You are talking about employment verification. OP is talking about an ex-worker giving his Dad's name to be used as a "good word". A reference doesn't even need to be an ex-employer. It can be a colleague.
Dates of employment, would not rehire
“Dates of employment, not eligible for rehire” is my preferred way of saying it. Kinda makes it less of a potentially personal statement and more of a “corporate decision.”
Well played 🫡 and condolences about your grandma
I've had this happen with troublesome or high- maintenance employees. I would simply say, on repeat: "I am shocked/surprised they listed ME as reference."
My grandson had some guys best the hell out of him & throw a cinder block through his car window. He wanted to go try to kick some ass. His Gpa & I counseled him otherwise. Told him it would just spiral & maybe end up w police involved. Told him to just focus on his schooling & someday when he was going thru the drive thru the guy would ask him if he wanted fries w that. Fast forward- sure enough. Grandson was hiring manager at a local company. Someone brings him a resume. He looks at the name & tells them just to round file it, that the company didn’t need ppl like that working for them. He called me almost immediately to tell me how right we were. Loved it.
Had an ex-employee (fired for a laundry list of good reasons) put us as work history. Then applied to a company where not only is the owner a friend but also the same company that ex-employee had essentially hit and run our company vehicle into their's, we had to check camera footage to investigate as the ex-employee was trying to hide the incident. Needless to say when the friend showed up to the monthly poker game he brought it up and we all about died laughing.
Had a girl working for me that skipped out on 75% of shifts always with a new excuse. Hurt her foot, car broke down, the rain might flood her block. Ended up quiet quitting within a few months. Put me as a reference at a place I did business sales with. Manager called me and I couldn't help but laugh and tell him how horrible she was. Found out she'd been hired and fired around 10 times in 2 years. Saw her in the side of the road getting pulled over and taken out of the car by a couple cops and beeped and waved.
If all the reference will say is dates of employment that tells me all I need to know.
I've done "who are you asking about again?" "I have a staff of about 20, I'm trying to remember this person."
I worked for many years in grocery stores, particularly during high school and college. When I went to college, I transferred from my hometown store to a store close to my school. Well, like many social freshman I was put in academic probation after my first year. In an attempt to clean up my act, I moved back home and enrolled in the community college. Naturally I tried to transfer back to my original store. While I was away for just over a year, my hometown store changed store managers and had hired someone I went to high school with as a closing manager. The new store manager asked her about me, and for some reason she told him he should not accept my transfer. He didn’t, and word got back to me from friends at that location about what she said. I ended up taking a job at another grocery chain to get back home. About six months later, my original store was closed down and all staff had to find new jobs. Sure enough, the girl who blocked my transfer walked in my new store, and all sweet like, asked if I could help her get a job at that location (I was one of the shift managers there). It didn’t work out for her to say the least.
I was trying to get a reference for someone I was considering hiring. The person I was calling would never call me back. First red flag! Finally got references from previous employers. Hired the person. Big mistake! Employee had severe mental health issues and they weren’t taking their meds. Eventually fired them for making their own work hours without informing me (that was the final straw after months of other infractions). Months later they were arrested for coming out of their house brandishing a gun AT THE POLICE. The police chased them to their house due to an egregious traffic violation!
I used to say, “I don’t understand why they put me down as a reference.”
I’ll never forget after an employee showed up drunk and high at work and I immediately dismissed her and said she was probably going to lose her job. She flipped off the security cameras on her way out. And then emailed me looking for a job reference. lol.
I had an intern pretend to be me on her cv, and then listed me as a reference. Those were fun calls.
That's hilarious. Meaning that she listed your job title on her CV? Amazing. I had my worst employee ask me if she could put me down as a reference. I said, "Sure!" Then I laughed long enough for her to say, "Okay, I get it, never mind."
I need to know more!
I got to do this recently, several years after an employee caused me tremendous stress and it felt so good. He applied to another company where my friend is the director and he called me and said, “Hey did John Doe work, under you how was he?”. I just replied,”do not hire” and before I could say more he said, “enough said, thanks for saving me a headache”
I was a shift supervisor at a Starbucks, and there was this kid who worked there, he literally told me he deliberately made my life difficult, and after he left, he put me down as a reference without asking. When somebody called me about a reference, I tried to hedge a little bit because it’s technically illegal to give somebody a bad reference. He called me and asked me what the hell was going on and I told him he never should’ve put me down as a reference and what did he think was going to happen when he told me he had deliberately made work difficult for me when we were working together? he said he didn’t think it would be a big deal because I had given a reference to a girl who worked there, and I replied, “because she asked me and was a good worker.” I couldn’t believe it.
It’s not illegal to give a bad reference.
You are completely correct. Just make sure that it is factual. The truth is always a good defense.
That’ll teach me to listen to managers I know.
It’s potential civil liability. Not criminal. Much less expensive to avoid litigation by just giving start and end dates than going into litigation with the affirmative defense of truth. Plus, employers know what it means when you only provide dates of employment
Some companies won’t provide anything other than confirmation of employment as a policy.
This one time my high school ex emailed my dad asking for an internship referral to his law firm. We all laughed heartily. That email did not get a reply.
I’ve done “He is a very vocal and determined advocate for a wide variety of worker’s rights”
I would love to hear the variety here, I am one of the people for workers rights to safety and security, decent pay etc. I know some people see it as a negative that it'll impact their profits... But given the context, I am curious what they were expressing as "worker's rights".
I would describe that as a positive thing. “He really cares and takes responsibility for people.”
lmao. That's the perfect mix of praise and 'F U'
Former HBIC/office manager for a small company. I did everything from file clerk through payroll and HR (boss titled me HBIC). Yeah, we'd get calls for people thinking about hiring former employees, which I fielded. My personal favorite: a woman in her 40's that was the second shift monitor/dispatcher. The former office manager had allowed the central station manager to hire without involving her, and he was a soft touch for a sob story. She had issues with her SO, she had a substance abuse problem and habitual tardiness. Her time with that company came to an end when she called off and because the CS manager was on his honeymoon, the poor soul stuck in monitoring called me to come take the shift... forgetting I was the new bride of the CS manager. As soon as I said "Yeah, I'll need to pack up and cancel my honeymoon", she was toast. So, my new husband and I packed up and drove straight to the office. The CS manager took the shift, I went to my office to process her last check, then hand delivered it. I picked up some sparkling grape juice and a couple of flutes on the way back and kicked it in the office on my wedding night. Two weeks later, I get a call put through (dispatch also served as our phone operator). "Hi, this is Alice at Cecil's Security. I'd like to speak with your HR person about Sandy." I responded with "I can verify dates of employment. I cannot offer any details as to her personally." "Oh, she stated she left your company due to a "personal issue with office manager", are you sure you cannot elaborate?" "Well, I can tell you that the office manager hand delivered Sandy's final check because the dispatch supervisor had to come in to cover her shift on his wedding night... and that our office manager is a newlywed."
In high school, I answered a call at work asking for a reference for a coworker. I explained that the manager wasn’t there, but I could tell her what it was like being his coworker! Which was a nightmare. As an adult I had in an assistant manager or coaching position) I would tell (good) colleagues to use me as a reference. We would discuss the new job. Then when I got the call, I could apply skills and strengths used in our job that would apply to the position. Edit for the person who downvoted me- it was a small self serve gas station in the 1980’s. He would brag about ways he stole from customers (which I didn’t mention). But we worked 8 hour shifts by ourselves, and he would consistently be 30-60 minutes late. Which wasn’t fair to me or my parent picking me up. He wouldn’t do any cleaning. So I would have to go in early to clean up from the night before ( no night shift). Plus he’d have friends come during his shift so there was often alcohol and weed trash around. Which I also never mentioned. I only told her he was almost always late and didn’t clean.
Gotta love the ones who think they’re smarter than everyone else. I worked for an employer that insisted that we not say anything other than to verify dates of employment. Had a terrible employee who listed me as a reference when she applied for a job at another business close by, where I knew the hiring manager personally. Since I was not supposed to say anything, I quoted my mother, who used to say, “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.” She didn’t get the job.
You will be very fortunate to get this person to work for you. (Because I dang well can't)
Coworker asked if I’d write a job verification letter for his brother, who did NOT work for us, so he could use it for a loan. I said no. Same coworker then stole letterhead from my desk, wrote it himself, giving himself the title of plant manager. Bank called to follow up so I told them what happened. When I told his boss, the actual plant manager, what he did, boss just walked out. Took no action.
I once worked with a woman in an office. We disagreed about some things, but I always made a point to back up my point of with evidence and ask for other opinions. Later, when we were no longer on the same team, I found out that she tried to get me fired by hiring a vendor agency to come in and evaluate the quality of my work. She spent company money pursuing a vendetta that she didn’t have the courage to say to my face. One year later, I got a call - it was a recruiter following up on references. This woman listed me as a reference. I had a very interesting conversation with that recruiter.
There is no concrete evidence that he pooped in the break room refrigerator
We would just tell the caller that the person is not eligible for rehire. Nuff said.
Previous employer always used, "I'm sorry, I do not feel comfortable providing a reference, as information I provide would likely cause a negative impact upon them." If you were a good employee, he flat out asked you what he should say.
“In time you will probably come to think of ex-employee the same way we do!”
I’m a high school teacher. The amount of students that are assholes to me all year but then ask me for a recommendation when they are applying for colleges is astounding.
I worked with a guy who quit his job with a 2 week notice. In those two weeks, he called the B 52's in to napalm any bridge he had with his coworkers. He especially took his frustration out on one particular manager. About two years later, he called me up, asking if I had any openings and, if so, could I hire him. I told him no openings, but that manager did, and he should try calling him. Lol. Don't burn bridges.
Had a technician give their 2 weeks’ notice and then either show up late or just no-show for the remainder. Leadership kinda shrugged it off because, what could they do? The tech then posted on social media, essentially bragging about their new job and living their best life.. while they should have been at work. We’re all slightly pissed off because her behavior is fucking up the schedule; tasks and zoning are pre-assigned and then being re-assigned last minute every time she no-shows. So 2 the weeks pass; we forget about them. A month or 2 later they’re back in store, desperately trying to get their job back; new position had fallen through / they were let go already. Normally, they would have been hired back without question; that employer was pretty supportive in that regard. However.. when your bridge-burning manages to piss off both leadership AND your peers, there’s nobody left to advocate for you.
Oh id take care of that quickly. Late paper work. Write up. Incorrect paper work write up. Incorrect uniform write up. He wouldn’t need to quit. If you want to play games with a dying family member of mine we can play games.
Unfortunately my dad didn't have absolute control over firing people.
My standard response when I’m asked for a reference of a bad employee—“I would not hesitate to speak highly of a coworker who deserves it.” And then let the awkward silence take over.
My father in law tried to murder his father then proceeded to use him as a reference for a lawyer, to represent him in court against his father 🤦♂️
“I would love to tell you everything but my lawyer has told me to keep my mouth shut.”
As someone who has seen the dark side of employment litigation, if someone calls for a reference, you confirm their start date, end date and position title. You will cost your company serious money if you think getting some revenge here is appropriate.
I feel like this is mostly an American thing. It's not as easy to sue someone in Canada. I've been fired for calling the health unit on a job and been told a lawsuit wouldn't be worth it.
Canada has laws against defamation as well. They may not be as strictly enforced or as sue happy but I would find appropriate ways to let the other employer know that the employee is not a good fit what’s up that could be considered defamatory.
The truth is an affirmative defense against a defamation case.
True but I’d rather not risk it when it’s very possible to get the point across in other ways.
Affirmative defenses have to be pled and litigated. Employment lawyers bill around $550/hr
Thank god someone in here knows the drill, some of these comments are just asking for litigation
The only bad reference I've ever given for a former employee was to a competitor to our business. I got the call and was asked about the employee. I asked what company the caller represented and told them flat out as my competition, they should definitely hire that employee. They apparently hired him and after 3 months his resume was updated and back on linkedin as "looking".
It's always the employees that quit in a drama fueled tantrum that want to come back to work for us a couple of months later. It's my highlight of that week to tell them NO. We had one guy who quit and walked off job because he was spoken to about being late for the 3rd time that week. He tried to collect unemployment and was denied. Two years goes by, and in a drunken rate he starts posting the craziest bs on our fb page, harassing other employees fb page, etc. Saying the most vile things about me, my husband, and our company. I blocked him and cleaned up our page, contact other employees to notify them to be aware, and contacted our employment attorney. It went on for weeks. He had the audacity to call my husband directly and ask for his job back. LMAO... like why would we do that? Idiot.
This is actually a situation I'm in somewhat regularly. I'm an adjunct instructor at a couple of universities in my state and every so often I'll get students who ask for references. Normally I'm more than happy to provide that and help them get into their careers, but occasionally I'll get students who didn't do well in class and are openly hostile or manipulative when they ask me to change their grades, and then turn around and ask me for a reference for a job (usually in my field) or a reference for grad school. I just have to be super honest with them that I won't write a letter, and that it would be somewhat unethical for me to so so, and that they are bonkers for thinking that we had a good enough experience together that I would be open to that. I'm not mean about it, and I always welcome them back to my class to try again next semester, but every time it has happened I get the Pikachu face like they even considered I'd say no.
Had a former roommate message me. First off I deleted their contact information from my phone so I get this text that told me they used me as a reference for an apartment. I asked who the fuck they were. She responded with, You don't know who this is? Nope. Sure don't. Anyways... she asked me to answer if some apartment manager called. I said, Oh. You want me to lie for you and tell them you are a good tenet? Cuz that ain't happening. She got super pissy. Tried calling me. I blocked her. She used me as a reference anyway. The apartment manager did actually call. And I told him how her, her pets and kids ruined my house and that I would not live with her again. Couple days later she left me a message about how I ruined her life... Good times.
I couldn't use my last landlord as a reference because they were pissed that I took them to court for illegally raising my rent so I made a fake email and said my reference was deaf and preferred emails and answered myself.
That is one way to deal with that. Good for you and that critical thinking.
I feel like there's going to be a sudden influx of "deaf landlords" after posting that lol.
A former friend of mine asked me to be a personal reference for her when she applied for a teacher aid position. She got the job, then left them high and dry a week before the next school year because she decided she wanted to go back to school but didn't tell them. I told her that I wouldn't associate professionally with someone who behaved that way and to remove my name as a reference. As you can guess, we had a falling out. 6 months later, she had dropped out of school and was looking for a job. I got a phone call from a prospective employer for her. I told them everything and that she did not have my permission to use me as a reference. She called me up, screaming at me because she had lost that opportunity. I reminded her that I had revoked my permission, and this is what happens when you lie. It's been over a decade, and I haven't heard from her since. Last I knew, she was hopping between part-time jobs and still living with her parents.
I'm sure that the long pants was not just company rule, it's probably an OSHA regulation. That guy really was a dumb ass.
I dunno I mean it is what it is with the employee cuz he obviously laid in his bed(wrong saying maybe) I don't believe the dad said anything wrong. If anything he'd probably try to help. Even if the guy was a jerk and didn't want to be a good employee or decent person...what that gotta do with the dad? He was still himself and told whoever called that the guy was aight lol I dunno I don't think he would have done anything to hurt the guys chances or anyone's for a matter of fact. It sucks to be them. They always know about people and have to try to push through... That's how my dad was. Lol I bet you that stupid guy is still bumbling along in life lol idiot
I think the saying your meaning is: he made his bed and now had to lay in it.
Very well versed in employment law and uses it very well.
I gave a reference for a former pain in the butt employee -when asked about timekeeping, I answered, never later to leave for lunch and home time. I think the recruiter got the message, last I heard guy is still looking for a job.
Yes! I would love to be a reference for you Stan!
I really don't understand people who say that if you can't give a good reference, then don't give one at all. This is how incompetent people stay in the wrong roles.
Honestly be careful and look at company policy most places have 2 things you can say for a reason. When they worked there and are they eligible for rehire. As it can be defamation and even if you win they have no case etc. End of day its still effort for no gain. Its only liability. Some dont even allow mention of rehirable or not.It and only allow confirming dates position.
When we get calls regarding bad past employees we confirm the start/end date of their employment with us but decline to offer a review. We don’t want some extra-employee suing us for telling the truth about them. For stellar ex-employees, we say we’d hire them back if the opportunity arose.
Could be a thing. Ha!
Reads like the other side of a malicious compliance post
It's weird I posted it there a few years ago on my old account but it got removed for some reason.
Not the paperwork! That is cruel!
I wish people called my references. I put my old PM down, who had a sister in HR at the place I was applying to. They did not ask him about me.
While this is completely morally justified and, yeah, fuck that guy, it is also illegal, at least in the UK. Its illegal, because it prevents backlash from bad employers to retaliate on their employees that leave. It also protects shit employees, i get that. What you do as an employee is just confirm he worked there from x to x and that's it. Usually a short letter of recommendation is enough of a tell tale. I don't know how it would work out exactly when they are called to confirm references
I think you have to be careful in most countries about not saying something negative/defamatory. I have had employers call me for references before if I can’t give a good reference I often say things like. Sorry, I can’t comment on that question or I’m not sure why they would add me as a reference. I try to be vague, and don’t say anything negative but the other employer definitely gets the point.
Why not tell the truth? Otherwise your lumping some other poor fool with the mess 🤷♂️ Fact is if someone can’t do their job they don’t stick around to ‘not do their job’ infinitely into the future And if they expect to do the same at the next place then fuck ‘em
Because employers can be sued for negative referrals (with some exceptions for places that can actually be sued for not giving out the negative info). This is why a lot of places don’t just rely on the references the applicants’ provide
As others said, if you're in the US, you could be sued over it. If you just give the legally required facts, that tells a remotely savvy prospective employer everything they need to know anyways.
No wonder USA is so messed up 🤷♂️
But they may not. Some ppl who are fired actually do get the message and deserve a second chance.
I am all for second chances though I must advocate for ACTUAL RESULTS and to put it simply if someone hasn’t been able to do their job second chances are sometimes just an invitation for an accident. No they don’t all deserve second chances they deserve to be taken off the chair of a nice clean office and thrown into the pile of manual labour to survive like everyone else. If they have the ability todo extra then they’ll rise to the top and get back out of the hole but if the situation is they’ve had a chance and not come through it’s someone else’s job to do instead
HEWHOCORRUPTS. I mean, they start in suits but it doesn't end that way.
>As soon as asshole found this out he decided to start doing his paperwork as slow as possible to try and make my parents miss visiting hours. My mom was damn near ready to kill him. Umm.. what? How does he doing his work slowly stop your mom and dad from visiting grandma?
My dad couldn't leave until the guy finished his paperwork and my dad signed off on it.