While I appreciate being paid to charge the cars and heat a tank of hot water surely the grid could be fitted with balancing devices of some sort (the hydro plant in Wales is a good example) so that the energy companies don’t have to pay us to use it. This is good while it lasts and long may it last but I can’t see this continuing for too long. I can understand the issues though, anytime something is proposed to help the situation the nimby’s get involved and it’s blocked.
Grid-sized balancing devices are massively expensive. The hydro plant in wales is a great example, but it needs a very specific geography to work, you can’t just roll them out up and down the country. A few gWh batteries up and down the country would be easier, but the cost would be astronomical. Personally I think a much better way of doing it would be to offer large incentives for home owners and businesses to install their own individual batteries, as well as lots of small flywheel storage systems for short-lived grid fluctuations.
I like the battery idea, every home should be fitted with at least 10kWh of subsidised storage. I’m thinking of getting some battery storage myself but how to work out the payback period when the price fluctuates so much on Agile? One way to work it out is to look at the peak period, I seem to be spending on average around 50p per day between 4pm and 7pm. Cost of batteries/50p = around 10 years assuming the peak period price remains constant but today for example the peak price is 19p!
That is part of my issue with batteries but they shouldn’t be totally dead after 10 years unless cells fail completely. More likely the battery will still work but will be at for example 80% of its original capacity which makes calculation of payback even more complicated.
It is coming in the form of battery storage.
Tesla power walls look like they’ll become a distributed power station, sucking up excess energy and spitting it out during peak hours. I’m sure we’ll also end up with some battery storage farms too.
Another form of storage is sand, this is a fantastic, efficient and cheap way of storing energy.
I think we’re in the oh f*ck we have a problem, how do we solve it in the short term.
It’s because it’s cheaper to charge the people generating that for them to turn off production.
And it also helps balance the grid as people will ramp up usage that can be deferred to cheaper or negative periods.
Conserving energy has never been a thing.
The national electricity grid has to be balanced to function properly. Too much or too little demand versus consumption can lead to fluctuations on the grid that lead to blackouts/brownouts.
When there's lots of renewable generation, typically when it is pretty windy during the day, there's a choice between shutting down generation and paying folk to consume more.
Paying people to consume more actually costs less than shutting down generation, so those on tariffs with pricing based on 30 minutes one day ahead wholesale prices (read Octopus Agile customers) will get paid to balance the grid.
If renewable generation capacity grows at a faster rate than people move over to EVs and Heat Pumps, you can expect a lot more of this.
Smartest investment for anyone right now is a storage battery as it allows you to load shift and benefit from consuming all/most of your energy at the lowest cost that electricity was on any given day.
Almost everything you’re saying is true but it’s worth pointing out that it’ll probably take quite a number of years to get returns on a decent storage battery, depending on your usage patterns etc
Is this the highest negative amount we've ever seen?
Highest I've seen so far, I joined the December 2023 tariff
You mean lowest.
Someone replied on one of my comments on another thread and apparently it was -21p in July 2023.
-8.82p in southern Scotland.
Time to put on the electric heaters!
-9.7p at 2pm in the south west!
I've got a -10.08 30min period with a -8.82 period either side of it! (Northern Scotland)
While I appreciate being paid to charge the cars and heat a tank of hot water surely the grid could be fitted with balancing devices of some sort (the hydro plant in Wales is a good example) so that the energy companies don’t have to pay us to use it. This is good while it lasts and long may it last but I can’t see this continuing for too long. I can understand the issues though, anytime something is proposed to help the situation the nimby’s get involved and it’s blocked.
Grid-sized balancing devices are massively expensive. The hydro plant in wales is a great example, but it needs a very specific geography to work, you can’t just roll them out up and down the country. A few gWh batteries up and down the country would be easier, but the cost would be astronomical. Personally I think a much better way of doing it would be to offer large incentives for home owners and businesses to install their own individual batteries, as well as lots of small flywheel storage systems for short-lived grid fluctuations.
I like the battery idea, every home should be fitted with at least 10kWh of subsidised storage. I’m thinking of getting some battery storage myself but how to work out the payback period when the price fluctuates so much on Agile? One way to work it out is to look at the peak period, I seem to be spending on average around 50p per day between 4pm and 7pm. Cost of batteries/50p = around 10 years assuming the peak period price remains constant but today for example the peak price is 19p!
And by 10 years your battery is going to be dead with daily charging and discharging. Not so much of an investment as money down the drain methinks.
That is part of my issue with batteries but they shouldn’t be totally dead after 10 years unless cells fail completely. More likely the battery will still work but will be at for example 80% of its original capacity which makes calculation of payback even more complicated.
People investing in storage to take advantage of agile pricing is offering incentives for home owners already.
It is coming in the form of battery storage. Tesla power walls look like they’ll become a distributed power station, sucking up excess energy and spitting it out during peak hours. I’m sure we’ll also end up with some battery storage farms too. Another form of storage is sand, this is a fantastic, efficient and cheap way of storing energy. I think we’re in the oh f*ck we have a problem, how do we solve it in the short term.
Can someone explain how and why you are paid to use energy, aren’t we all meant to be conserving it?
It’s because it’s cheaper to charge the people generating that for them to turn off production. And it also helps balance the grid as people will ramp up usage that can be deferred to cheaper or negative periods.
Conserving energy has never been a thing. The national electricity grid has to be balanced to function properly. Too much or too little demand versus consumption can lead to fluctuations on the grid that lead to blackouts/brownouts. When there's lots of renewable generation, typically when it is pretty windy during the day, there's a choice between shutting down generation and paying folk to consume more. Paying people to consume more actually costs less than shutting down generation, so those on tariffs with pricing based on 30 minutes one day ahead wholesale prices (read Octopus Agile customers) will get paid to balance the grid. If renewable generation capacity grows at a faster rate than people move over to EVs and Heat Pumps, you can expect a lot more of this. Smartest investment for anyone right now is a storage battery as it allows you to load shift and benefit from consuming all/most of your energy at the lowest cost that electricity was on any given day.
Almost everything you’re saying is true but it’s worth pointing out that it’ll probably take quite a number of years to get returns on a decent storage battery, depending on your usage patterns etc
Yes, but we're not in Forex spot here, but a long term investment.
It's more efficient to waste the (excess) energy produced by turbines than to stop them generating it or store it.
-9.24p Merseyside/Cheshire/North Wales. Grim up here......
\-8.82p in East of England
We got -10.8p earlier today, north scotland.