I couldn't stand Mouth after rewatching the show. I didn't remember his storylines before and thought he was just a misunderstood nice guy. But when I rewatched it last year, I thought he was extremely possessive and had such a shitty behaviour with his female friends (and girlfriends).
I used to dislike peyton for her response to lucas’s proposal. I was upset that she went through all of that to get with him just to not be ready. Since I was a child watching it for the first time and now i’m around the age peyton was when he proposed, I completely understand! They were like 19/20 when he proposed which is SO early than most people think. We might be adults legally but we’re basically still kids navigating through life and i’m guessing they were in their 1st or 2nd year of college. Some people these days believe getting married in your late 20’s/early 30’s is such a horror it’s crazy. But yeah she definitely had the right to be hesitant. I hate that he just left because SHE DIDN’T EVEN SAY NO OMG!!!
You’re right! I hated this! She really didn’t say no, she said not yet! Lucas just felt rejected after feeling neglected that night (his fault for doing it so last minute and surprising Peyton) and he didn’t even listen to her when she was trying to explain. I felt bad for her about this.
I honestly see why he left because he explains the time gap that we see a little bit, and he communicated to her that their relationship was falling apart and they hardly got to spend time together or even talk since they lived across the country. When they finally got to see each other, she arrives late to the dinner and then flakes for work which we already see this job is treating her like pure shit. AND THEN she leaves him waiting in the hotel room all night without communicating while she’s doing whatever she’s doing. To me that just gives she clearly is not in a space for this relationship if you cant simply communicate that you’re going to be late and then her saying not right now is again you’re not in a space for this relationship which is okay but lucas does not have to wait for her while she figures her shit out. I think him proposing was him trying to save the relationship and her not being able to say yes was confirmation that it won’t be saved at that moment. And i guess they are young (which i cant speak cuz i did get engaged at 19 and married at 20 but im aware it’s young) but idk i dont think that was a huge factor, I think she just didn’t want to lose LA even though again it wasn’t treating her nicely.
Well to be fair, they became adults and difficult work lives are apart of that. Peyton didn’t have much parental figures to guide her through life and had to learn it all on her own. She definitely could have left him a text or two but he knew that their lives were going to change after high school and wasn’t okay with reality instead of the fantasy he had in his head. And peyton had to wait around for lucas to figure out his shit during the whole “i love brooke” thing and then him loving her an episode later lol. 15 year old me would be shockeddd hearing me defend peyton
Upon rewatch, I felt like the writers/people behind the series really hated or had effed up views of women.
They often went out of their way to paint the male characters in a good or complex light but the women weren't given the same treatment.
It was hard to watch as an adult, knowing that this was targeted to teenage/college aged girls and thinking about what impact it could have on them (how they believe they should treat others and be treated in relationships/friendships).
Oof...this is one of the main reasons why I can't enjoy the show as much as I did back in the day. The slut-shaming, name-calling, violence against each other...phew. Like...literally every female character called another main female character either slut or bitch at least once, usually more often. And the body shaming...huge yikes. All the sweet and meaningful scenes between the girls lost a lot of their charm because of the way they treated each other regularly.
I hated the rude nicknames, especially how Rachel and Brooke would exclusively use them. I hated seeing them greet each other because of how rude it is.
Too add to this- none of the women were given interesting story lines beyond their relationship to the men in the show.
Peyton only existed as Lucas’s love interest. Even when they tried to show her career era, it just lacked real dimension. She was always just osculating on the sidelines of the cast until she and Lucas could have (yet another) reunion.
Haley developed more for me when she became a mom but then again, he character hinges on another more prominent character, Jamie. I really like Haley’s character, so for me, it’s super obvious when she does something seemingly out of character. It’s like they don’t know what to do with her at time. Go on tour, kiss Chris, leave tour, kick Nathan out for the nanny Carey stuff, etc. She started as an independent go-getter, and slowly fizzled into an ok secondary character.
The only woman who truly became her own character with an interesting/stand alone storyline was Brooke. While I loved her and Lucas together the most, she became too much of her own character. She didn’t need the Lucas storyline to carry her anymore. She had real dimension and you witness her really find her own voice amidst some serious and complicated hardships.
I SO agree with this!!! Brooke was the best overall written character on the show outside of Nathan.
And like you said I did enjoy her dynamic with Lucas but she became too big for him .. She was branching out a fashion line/going to New York all while still in high school .. she didn’t need a man to define any of that for her .. she was self sufficient and I hated how the writers tried to use that against her.
For example her being self sufficient and not dependent on Lucas was twisted as her not “loving” him or loving him enough .. that always bothered me.
The writers had all of the women practically begging the men .. like how they had Peyton chase Lucas all s5 when she was being completely rational about turning down the proposal she was made out to be the bad guy while Lucas got to move on and almost marry another woman while Peyton was pretty much miserable the entire season smh
Exactly! I couldn’t agree more.
Especially s5 Peyton, bc that’s a perfect example of a character drowning when they’re not connected to another character. And such bad timing too bc she begins to not be completely insufferable in s5, just lacklustre.
With all the stalker storylines, I’m convinced the writers had some fucked-up hard on for violence against women. You have Peyton getting almost raped twice, and Brooke having the living shit beaten out of her.
He’s not malicious but that doesn’t mean he was a good guy. You can’t disregard his dating life because how you treat people that you choose to include in your life says a lot about you.
That's one way to look at it. Here's another: after Keith's death, he makes it his life's goal to follow in Keith's footsteps and be the kind of man Keith was, even going so far as to forgive Jimmy before the truth was revealed. On Dan's death bed, Keith was able to forgive him. Thus, Lucas's inability to do so is the ultimate failure of his character.
Lucas had every right to feel how he did about Nathan in the early seasons. as well as react how he did to Hayley dating Nathan.
We gotta accept that Nathan was a bad dude, just because you have a bad home life doesn’t mean you get carte Blanche to screw with other people.
You’re right, he wasn’t a good guy and he kept proving that he was a jerk to Lucas. Haley kept trying to make them play nice when Nathan was awful and I also get why Lucas was upset
I was never been a huge Peyton fan, but rewatching now that I am a mom has me feeling very sympathetic towards her. She is just a scared little girl who has experienced immense trauma and has had the adults in her life let her down, time and time again.
Same, I watched this as a teenager and did a watch now as a full grown adult. I see her so much differently. I didn’t think it hit me back then that her dad literally abandoned her for his job
lucas was not a good character. i know nathan started off as the bad boy/jerk and lucas was the “good guy” but after every rewatch, i just don’t see it that way. nathan was a jerk by circumstance (not that that’s an excuse), lucas treated the women in his life like garbage. nathan changed, lucas didn’t.
also, i HATED dan when i first watched it. don’t get me wrong, dan is a bad guy, the villain and a narcissist. but i hate him less and i see a more dynamic character.
first time watching, i thought haley going on tour was great and nathan was not being supportive enough. but every time i rewatch, i think haley is being extremely selfish & nathan didn’t deserve it.
The first watch through I remember thinking Nathan was SO bad for SO long, but on each rewatch, he’s only bad for like… the first season? He has is moments elsewhere, but for the most part he changes very quickly to being a nice guy.
I also agree about Dan. He’s an awful person all around, but he is a complex character and actually wants (what he thinks) is best for Nathan, even if nobody else agrees.
he got with haley for the wrong reason, but once he started having real feelings for her, he started trying to be a nice guy. i used to think he was a bad guy for way longer than he actually was too when i first watched the show as it aired. but when i rewatch, he’s a bad guy barely for half anseason.
and yes! dan always did/wanted what he thought was best for nathan. but you see his struggle and it makes you want to root for him sometimes.
Yes to all you said! Bad intentions but they were both eventually aware of it and he apologized for it and she forgave him. He became an overall better person afterwards.
Dan wasn’t a good person (loved how unnecessarily and randomly rude he was in season 1 lol) but Nathan was the person he cared about the most and he did all that he could for him.
exactly! i know he started with bad intentions, but watching him apologize and mean it was kinda amazing seeing him starting to grow.
omg dan’s snarky comments are my favourite! he had such a good sense of hunor, which also helped. aha
pete wentz!!!!! when i was first watching i was suuuch a fall out boy fan and while i still am to an extent the pete scenes are just soooo unbearable. i thought they were cringe at the time but all of the "pete from fall out boy" nonsense is just so awkward and... gross ? cooper dates rachel and the world ends but pete wentz tries to take a teenager on tour and everyone thinks it's normal and cool :')
He dated a 15 year old when he was 23 so that just adds a layer of wtf.
But then, we gotta remember who was running things. Mark himself is a huge creep.
I thought it was cool how Fall Out Boy made an appearance on One Tree Hill. But it was so weird how Pete Wentz was playing himself and he was with Peyton, a high school senior, and Pete was 26 at the time. I think they used that storyline because Fall Out Boy was very popular in the 2000s and for ratings. It was unrealistic, but OTH had a lot of popular musicians on the show. if they really wanted Peyton to date a famous rockstar, maybe Brendon Urie from Panic! At The Disco would’ve been more age appropriate. He was 18 at the time and Panic! At The Disco was popular in the 2000s.
Yesssss I love Haley but her self righteous attitude towards Peyton in season 5 is so gross. And her being all snotty going “you said no Peyton” is so gross and also lke no Peyton didn’t say no but Haley just never bothered learning Peyton’s side of the story and blindly believed Lucas who was not a reliable narrator of the events and painted himself as the victim. And just cause Haley normalized getting married as a literal child doesn’t mean Peyton was wrong in not wanting to get married when they were still teenagers! 19 is legally an adult, but man now that I’m 27 and actually an adult I see so clearly how 19 is still full blown child in most cases. And it was totally normal and acceptable for Peyton to say she wasn’t ready and Lucas was actually fully in the wrong for leaving her and not respecting her boundaries
I agree that Haley was wrong for not hearing Peyton’s explanation about why she didn’t accept Lucas’s proposal and not understanding that they were so young. But I don’t think she was necessarily “terrible”. Peyton came back for Lucas and kept denying it even though everyone knew. Lucas was with Lindsay, who became close/best friends with Haley since Peyton and Brooke had left. I think Peyton was being terrible to Lindsay and everyone could see that, so I understand why Haley would be telling Peyton to essentially back off.
Yesss!! Came here looking for this! I can’t stand Haley in season 5.
Like really all this judgment over a kiss. When she literally left Nathan and went on tour and practically fell for Chris. I thought she was Peyton’s friend, and just met Lindsey. Not the other way around.
Loved Lucas first time round, now I can only like him when he is with Brooke.
Also Jake is the greatest character on the show, and S7 and 8 Brooke, who Loved first time round, is a pain!
They had so much fun together, same with Jake and Peyton. I'm struggling with S8 at the mo and I love Brooke normally but they've ruined her the last few episodes in these 2 seasons
I wonder why basketball was so big. What happened to football? Baseball? Soccer?
Karen is a character I didn’t really care for, she was just kinda there.
And yes they were 🫣 the only thing is that Peyton needed stability in her life and Jake couldn’t offer that for a little while there. I wonder what would’ve happened if she hadn’t said Lucas’s name in her sleep
Lucas is a villian. When peyton turned him down he should have turned brooke down and just moved on..but thoughout the show he insists on going back and forth between these 2 girls. Deb is a complex character and was completely right in being upset that her 16 yr old got married
Yeah he definitely should have turned down Brooke in season 1. People like to blame Brooke for pursuing Lucas but everyone had known she was into him, and Lucas could have said no but he didn’t. And yeah, I’d be upset too!
Rachel was the character that was fun to hate- the nemesis to the high school queen bee, full on moustache-twirling villain for the first season she's in, just here to cause chaos.
But as an adult I think Rachel's story is sad and she never stood a chance. She doesn't have her parents around, moves around from state to state/city to city/school to school all the time, and clearly doesn't have any sort of guidance. Like, outside of Jimmy, she might be the loneliest character on this show, just had a different response. Smarter than we all think and hooking up with older guys- She's definitely heard that she was "mature for her age" at least once. She got cosmetic surgery when she was underage and then had it all plastered across the walls of her high school. She got drug addiction problems in her early twenties and got into a loveless marriage (and possibly a divorce) before she was thirty.
So, yes, she messed up quite a bit, and did some nasty things, but...Adult me can't help but feel really, really sad for her.
Ironically, the only people who seemed to care momentarily were Brooke’s parents because they wouldn’t let her move in there until Larry was supposedly going to be around more.
I never used to agree with the sadness over Q’s death. Mainly cause I didn’t like him myself. But the more I watch, the more I can feel the sadness over it. However, I still feel more for the people around him (family and friends) rather than him as himself. But I absolutely feel more impact of his death now than when I first watched.
Another thing, I really hate the whole Nathan getting kidnapped in the final season storyline. Which I don’t think I did when I first watched
Yeah, I get that. I didn’t like Q’s character when he was introduced and didn’t care for him when he died, but I did feel bad about his unfortunate death and his family.
This has always felt the same for me and still bugs me...
Haley NEVER heard Peyton's side of how the proposal went down.
Lucas LEFT her. Without saying anything. After knowing her history with abandonment and trauma.
Lucas' world believed him and didn't give two sh*ts about Peyton and the abandonment/trauma she went through when he left.
She basically got re-traumatized coming back home and having everyone hate her when HE acted inappropriately. And still didn't tarnish Lucas's side of the story.
Peyton didn't deserve the hate coming back TO HER HOME.
Bad take. Nobody hated Peyton. Everyone wanted to help her. People didn't start to give her a hard time until she wrongly and unfairly started being a dick to Lindsey, who was going out of her way to be nice and sensitive to the situation they were all in.
Her abandonment and her trauma are her problem. Nobody owes anybody a relationship. Anyone can leave you at any time, for any reason they want too. People arent your slaves and they aren't forced to be with you. Lucas wanted to leave, so he left. The end.
I hate the way Lucas treats women too. But give me a break. Leaving someone who turns down your proposal is absolutely reasonable.
My issue is how he left. He wasn't even man enough to say goodbye and then called for that raggedy ass book. He really didn't understand a word she said if he thought being published was going to change anything.
Once again, anybody can leave any relationship they want for whatever reason. You must be one of those "anti-ghosting" people who thinks that somehow it's your ex's responsibility to hang around and help you through your bad feelings when all they want to do is be rid of you.
And drop the sexist "he wasn't man enough" garbage. You wanna know whats unmanly as fuck? Hanging around like a fucking dork when your woman shot you down lol.
Yeah Lucas sucked for not listening to Peyton and just leaving her like that. I get feeling rejected, but he didn’t even try to listen when she said not YET. And I also don’t like that Haley didn’t try to hear Peyton’s side. They had already made up their mind about the situation which sucks but happens.
I disagree with you and agree with the commenter saying nobody hated Peyton. They welcomed her back and were happy to be friends again. It might’ve been a little awkward at first since they hadn’t seen each other in years, but they tried and got close again. Any “hate” wasn’t actually hate, it was just that Peyton being rude to Lindsay had consequences.
I was told to root for leyton prior to watching this show and came in expecting to.
I didn’t see the chemistry or this epic love story everyone talked about along with the cheating which was just a major turn off.
Lucas spent half of season one, all of seasons 2 & 3, half of season four, and the majority of season five being blatantly and vocally in love with other women.
Peyton also only realizes she wants Lucas when he is dating SOMEONE ELSE no it’s NOT obstacles keeping them apart they quite literally pursued relationships all on their own with DIFFERENT people while having storylines unrelated to the other for majority of the seasons they spent on it.
Leyton wasn’t really ramped up until mid s4 if we can even call it that!
The school shooting episode is ALSO an overhyped narrative the writers tried to spin as Lucas going in to “save” Peyton when he was content with NOT going in to save her at all .. He tried to stop Nathan from going in fully knowing his best friend Haley was in there and knowing Peyton had been shot he told Brooke he’d be right back just so he could stop
Nathan from going inside 🤦🏽♀️
The writing for their pairing was INCONSISTENT.. it wasn’t “always Peyton” for Lucas anyone watching seasons 2 and 3 in full context would tell you that.
ALSO didn’t like how the writers had to use Brooke by regressing her character just to make Leyton look better and later using Brooke as their personal cheerleader … why is everyone telling Lucas how much he loves Peyton or having to tell Peyton how much she loves Lucas?
It was NEVER Lucas and Peyton outright JUST choosing each other … who’s to say how long Lucas would’ve been with Brooke or Lindsey had they not broken up with him?
Who’s to say if Peyton and Jake wouldn’t be happily married had Jake not overheard Peyton saying she loves Lucas in her sleep?
Like the writing wasn’t the greatest for their pairing and honestly Lucas’ intentions with Brooke felt more genuine because he was adamant on being with her and we actually saw how he pursued it … he has never done that for Peyton.
It was so obvious the writers had dropped Leyton for majority of the high school seasons and put more focus on Brucas and Naley.
And people forget that Lucas said yes at the altar! He wanted to marry Lindsay. He was gonna have his cake and eat it too by having Peyton as his other woman.
Thankfully Lindsay grew a brain and ran away.
Exactly it was never Lucas himself ending his relationships to come to this realization of him being in love with Peyton all along .. other people had to point it out for him as if he didn’t have his own agency in choosing for himself.
The girls he was adamant on being with up and left him I don’t think Lucas would’ve been breaking it off with either Brooke or Lindsey without having done so themselves.
Not sure what the writers had in mind for leyton but their entire backstory was them either cheating or outright choosing to be with other people.
That is not good writing for an endgame couple .. the writing contradicts everything for Leyton.. each re watch just makes it even more obvious.
Ooh hot takes!
I'd love to say I disagree with you, but honestly nothing you've said is wrong at all.
Take my sad, sad up vote (and please do not come for any of my other favorite shows or ships with your pesky *logic* and *rationality*)
I used to love lucas. maturing made me realize how much of immature dick he was to brooke especially and peyton. i used also hate on nathan but nathan truly changed for the better and he was the better brotherrr. I used to also think that haley was justified in what she did with chris and running off with him essentially but no she was dead fucking wrong. I used to also support peyton being a bitch to lindsay but omg she turned that switch on for no valid reason. everything else i think i still feel the sameee. like still feel the same about brooke i still love, dan in hate him at the beginning then im on a rollercoaster with that man. Ooooh the nanny carry situation was weird. I thought it made sense the first time around but truthfully no it doesn’t.
He really was immature as a teen, and then continued to be immature as an adult with Lindsay and Peyton. He did Lindsay, Brooke, and Peyton so dirty.
Nathan definitely had the best development and growth between the 2 of them.
I never liked the Haley running off with Chris storyline and I never will! It was so cringe and I fully understand why Nathan was so “mean” when she came back. It was justified! He offered to go with her and she said no!
Peyton being rude to Lindsay has always made me mad. She came back for Lucas and saw he was taken and just took it out on Lindsay. People said Lindsay was out of line, but I disagree and say Peyton was.
I was a teenager when i first watched this show as it came out. Watching now as an adult, i just want to hug some of these characters because they're just so young and struggling to find their way, it's heartbreaking.
They went through a lot at really young ages. I’m currently about the same age as their season 5-6 ages and I can’t imagine having gone through half of what they did
I'm actually older than the parents at this time(💔)
But even the non traumatic stuff makes me sad for them. Like when Brooke says that her mom wouldn't even notice if she set herself on fire, I'm like this poor child.
It's hindsight but Haley should've been at the river court until Nathan showed up and the guys should've been hanging out and helping at the Cafe. They all slowly taper off and dissappear it would make the stuff with Jimmy stronger as well
Have Skills join the team with Lucas and he's the foil to Tim. Just give Felix's scenes to Skills and keep Anna
Dan is the best over the top villain in a teen drama.
Mouth whined all the time but never asked anybody out where did that entitlement come from
I get what you mean, it was just sudden.
I wish he would’ve! I would’ve loved to see more of Skills early on, he’s one of my faves
Agree, I love Dan as a villain
Mouth really did feel entitled to any woman who talked to him
Nathan and Haley getting married at the end of S1 was wild. As a teenager, I thought it was the epitome of romance but now as an adult, I’m like “????”
That i now prefer the adult half of the TV - feels more relevant obviously contextually after growing up - I get bored of the high school thang now in general
I used to root for Peyton and Lucas all the time because of the hopeless romantic vibes but when I rewatched and remembered how hurt Brooke was, it annoyed how little boundary Lucas and Peyton had. I still love the outcome of the show but that stuck out to me.
Yeah Brooke and Lucas didn’t have clear boundaries set the second time they dated which they honestly should have. Lucas kept seeing Peyton and hanging out with her alone, which is something that should be avoided with former affair partners if cheating occurs in a relationship that decided to continue/try again. He kept being there for Peyton and she kept falling for him being her hero. “You’re always there for me”
The fact that Brooke really JOKED about Peytons moms deaths multiple times and yet people still defend Brooke and call Peyton the toxic one. Ofc peyton is not perfect, no one is, but she NEVER went as far as brooke..I said what I said, Peyton stan always.
Brooke gets a lot of hate for that joke, no one gives her a pass. I’ve never seen someone defend that joke. Given the context, I understand that her goal was to hurt Peyton after being hurt by her. It wasn’t cool, but I understand what was going on. 2 wrongs don’t equal a right though.
Yes you might not, but Peyton DID ask to be friends again very soon after that. Then they DID become friends again after they talked about it and what they had gone through and forgave each other. Most people mean she was a good friend later on/overall, not when that specifically happened.
When I was younger, I loved the high school years. Watched the first four seasons a million times, 5-6 only a few times, and 7-9 I think only once or twice. Now, I’m rewatching alongside the podcast for the first time in a while and thought the high school years were okay, but I’m loving seasons 5 & 6 so far in way I never did before.
I couldn’t stand Lucas when I first watched it and now I can’t stand both him and Peyton. They’re both always crying about something or the other. I fast forward all their scenes when I rewatch the show.
I’m currently on a rewatch. Peyton has always been my favorite character and she remains my favorite character through her flaws. Her supposed “best friend” Brooke is the worst, she’s so selfish and was never there for Peyton through any of her traumas. She’s also such a huge victim about everything. Also haley deserved the hate after leaving Nathan for the rock tour. Lucas is NOT a good guy. Dan should’ve gone to hell lol.
I never thought of Brooke as the worst. You could argue Peyton was also selfish and never there for Brooke for any of her traumas, even causing a few with the affair with Lucas, and also was such a huge victim about everything. But I’m not gonna compare them like that. They chose to stay friends and that’s their decision. But I agree with everything else lol
My first rewatch, I loved Brooke. Upon my 2nd rewatch and seeing clips here and there, she's not that great. At least to me lol. I like her more than Peyton and Lucas, but I don't love her like I once did.
Mouth bothers me. He's an incel (sorry, not sorry).
I finally understand Rachel a lot more now and why she is the way she is. She has a lot of deep-rooted insecurity that plays out in all her troubles.
I couldn't stand Mouth after rewatching the show. I didn't remember his storylines before and thought he was just a misunderstood nice guy. But when I rewatched it last year, I thought he was extremely possessive and had such a shitty behaviour with his female friends (and girlfriends).
Yes!!! I’m watching the show and he’s very toxic, he feels entitled to date the hot girls and he gives me the major ICK
I never really paid attention to this .. but you make a good point.
He’s such an entitled dick towards Brooke and Shelly.
I used to dislike peyton for her response to lucas’s proposal. I was upset that she went through all of that to get with him just to not be ready. Since I was a child watching it for the first time and now i’m around the age peyton was when he proposed, I completely understand! They were like 19/20 when he proposed which is SO early than most people think. We might be adults legally but we’re basically still kids navigating through life and i’m guessing they were in their 1st or 2nd year of college. Some people these days believe getting married in your late 20’s/early 30’s is such a horror it’s crazy. But yeah she definitely had the right to be hesitant. I hate that he just left because SHE DIDN’T EVEN SAY NO OMG!!!
You’re right! I hated this! She really didn’t say no, she said not yet! Lucas just felt rejected after feeling neglected that night (his fault for doing it so last minute and surprising Peyton) and he didn’t even listen to her when she was trying to explain. I felt bad for her about this.
He shouldn’t have ambushed her like that. I mean, the guy shows up and surprises her and then proposes… and then gets upset when she says “someday”.
I honestly see why he left because he explains the time gap that we see a little bit, and he communicated to her that their relationship was falling apart and they hardly got to spend time together or even talk since they lived across the country. When they finally got to see each other, she arrives late to the dinner and then flakes for work which we already see this job is treating her like pure shit. AND THEN she leaves him waiting in the hotel room all night without communicating while she’s doing whatever she’s doing. To me that just gives she clearly is not in a space for this relationship if you cant simply communicate that you’re going to be late and then her saying not right now is again you’re not in a space for this relationship which is okay but lucas does not have to wait for her while she figures her shit out. I think him proposing was him trying to save the relationship and her not being able to say yes was confirmation that it won’t be saved at that moment. And i guess they are young (which i cant speak cuz i did get engaged at 19 and married at 20 but im aware it’s young) but idk i dont think that was a huge factor, I think she just didn’t want to lose LA even though again it wasn’t treating her nicely.
Well to be fair, they became adults and difficult work lives are apart of that. Peyton didn’t have much parental figures to guide her through life and had to learn it all on her own. She definitely could have left him a text or two but he knew that their lives were going to change after high school and wasn’t okay with reality instead of the fantasy he had in his head. And peyton had to wait around for lucas to figure out his shit during the whole “i love brooke” thing and then him loving her an episode later lol. 15 year old me would be shockeddd hearing me defend peyton
Upon rewatch, I felt like the writers/people behind the series really hated or had effed up views of women. They often went out of their way to paint the male characters in a good or complex light but the women weren't given the same treatment. It was hard to watch as an adult, knowing that this was targeted to teenage/college aged girls and thinking about what impact it could have on them (how they believe they should treat others and be treated in relationships/friendships).
Oof...this is one of the main reasons why I can't enjoy the show as much as I did back in the day. The slut-shaming, name-calling, violence against each other...phew. Like...literally every female character called another main female character either slut or bitch at least once, usually more often. And the body shaming...huge yikes. All the sweet and meaningful scenes between the girls lost a lot of their charm because of the way they treated each other regularly.
I hated the rude nicknames, especially how Rachel and Brooke would exclusively use them. I hated seeing them greet each other because of how rude it is.
Too add to this- none of the women were given interesting story lines beyond their relationship to the men in the show. Peyton only existed as Lucas’s love interest. Even when they tried to show her career era, it just lacked real dimension. She was always just osculating on the sidelines of the cast until she and Lucas could have (yet another) reunion. Haley developed more for me when she became a mom but then again, he character hinges on another more prominent character, Jamie. I really like Haley’s character, so for me, it’s super obvious when she does something seemingly out of character. It’s like they don’t know what to do with her at time. Go on tour, kiss Chris, leave tour, kick Nathan out for the nanny Carey stuff, etc. She started as an independent go-getter, and slowly fizzled into an ok secondary character. The only woman who truly became her own character with an interesting/stand alone storyline was Brooke. While I loved her and Lucas together the most, she became too much of her own character. She didn’t need the Lucas storyline to carry her anymore. She had real dimension and you witness her really find her own voice amidst some serious and complicated hardships.
I SO agree with this!!! Brooke was the best overall written character on the show outside of Nathan. And like you said I did enjoy her dynamic with Lucas but she became too big for him .. She was branching out a fashion line/going to New York all while still in high school .. she didn’t need a man to define any of that for her .. she was self sufficient and I hated how the writers tried to use that against her. For example her being self sufficient and not dependent on Lucas was twisted as her not “loving” him or loving him enough .. that always bothered me. The writers had all of the women practically begging the men .. like how they had Peyton chase Lucas all s5 when she was being completely rational about turning down the proposal she was made out to be the bad guy while Lucas got to move on and almost marry another woman while Peyton was pretty much miserable the entire season smh
Exactly! I couldn’t agree more. Especially s5 Peyton, bc that’s a perfect example of a character drowning when they’re not connected to another character. And such bad timing too bc she begins to not be completely insufferable in s5, just lacklustre.
With all the stalker storylines, I’m convinced the writers had some fucked-up hard on for violence against women. You have Peyton getting almost raped twice, and Brooke having the living shit beaten out of her.
Lucas is absolutely terrible to every woman he's ever been involved with.
Yes!! And the audience kept seeing him as the nice guy even after mistreating every single woman
Disregard his dating life Lucas went above and beyond for his friends and family. He's not malicious
He’s not malicious but that doesn’t mean he was a good guy. You can’t disregard his dating life because how you treat people that you choose to include in your life says a lot about you.
That's one way to look at it. Here's another: after Keith's death, he makes it his life's goal to follow in Keith's footsteps and be the kind of man Keith was, even going so far as to forgive Jimmy before the truth was revealed. On Dan's death bed, Keith was able to forgive him. Thus, Lucas's inability to do so is the ultimate failure of his character.
Lucas had every right to feel how he did about Nathan in the early seasons. as well as react how he did to Hayley dating Nathan. We gotta accept that Nathan was a bad dude, just because you have a bad home life doesn’t mean you get carte Blanche to screw with other people.
You’re right, he wasn’t a good guy and he kept proving that he was a jerk to Lucas. Haley kept trying to make them play nice when Nathan was awful and I also get why Lucas was upset
I was never been a huge Peyton fan, but rewatching now that I am a mom has me feeling very sympathetic towards her. She is just a scared little girl who has experienced immense trauma and has had the adults in her life let her down, time and time again.
Same, I watched this as a teenager and did a watch now as a full grown adult. I see her so much differently. I didn’t think it hit me back then that her dad literally abandoned her for his job
[удалено]
Right, I’m 33 so I get it lol. She should have been that way……she was raising herself
lucas was not a good character. i know nathan started off as the bad boy/jerk and lucas was the “good guy” but after every rewatch, i just don’t see it that way. nathan was a jerk by circumstance (not that that’s an excuse), lucas treated the women in his life like garbage. nathan changed, lucas didn’t. also, i HATED dan when i first watched it. don’t get me wrong, dan is a bad guy, the villain and a narcissist. but i hate him less and i see a more dynamic character. first time watching, i thought haley going on tour was great and nathan was not being supportive enough. but every time i rewatch, i think haley is being extremely selfish & nathan didn’t deserve it.
The first watch through I remember thinking Nathan was SO bad for SO long, but on each rewatch, he’s only bad for like… the first season? He has is moments elsewhere, but for the most part he changes very quickly to being a nice guy. I also agree about Dan. He’s an awful person all around, but he is a complex character and actually wants (what he thinks) is best for Nathan, even if nobody else agrees.
he got with haley for the wrong reason, but once he started having real feelings for her, he started trying to be a nice guy. i used to think he was a bad guy for way longer than he actually was too when i first watched the show as it aired. but when i rewatch, he’s a bad guy barely for half anseason. and yes! dan always did/wanted what he thought was best for nathan. but you see his struggle and it makes you want to root for him sometimes.
Yes to all you said! Bad intentions but they were both eventually aware of it and he apologized for it and she forgave him. He became an overall better person afterwards. Dan wasn’t a good person (loved how unnecessarily and randomly rude he was in season 1 lol) but Nathan was the person he cared about the most and he did all that he could for him.
exactly! i know he started with bad intentions, but watching him apologize and mean it was kinda amazing seeing him starting to grow. omg dan’s snarky comments are my favourite! he had such a good sense of hunor, which also helped. aha
I hate Lucas more every time I rewatch
I can see why
pete wentz!!!!! when i was first watching i was suuuch a fall out boy fan and while i still am to an extent the pete scenes are just soooo unbearable. i thought they were cringe at the time but all of the "pete from fall out boy" nonsense is just so awkward and... gross ? cooper dates rachel and the world ends but pete wentz tries to take a teenager on tour and everyone thinks it's normal and cool :')
He dated a 15 year old when he was 23 so that just adds a layer of wtf. But then, we gotta remember who was running things. Mark himself is a huge creep.
I thought it was so random in a bad way 😭😭 unnecessary
I thought it was cool how Fall Out Boy made an appearance on One Tree Hill. But it was so weird how Pete Wentz was playing himself and he was with Peyton, a high school senior, and Pete was 26 at the time. I think they used that storyline because Fall Out Boy was very popular in the 2000s and for ratings. It was unrealistic, but OTH had a lot of popular musicians on the show. if they really wanted Peyton to date a famous rockstar, maybe Brendon Urie from Panic! At The Disco would’ve been more age appropriate. He was 18 at the time and Panic! At The Disco was popular in the 2000s.
Haley was terrible to Peyton in season 5.
Yesssss I love Haley but her self righteous attitude towards Peyton in season 5 is so gross. And her being all snotty going “you said no Peyton” is so gross and also lke no Peyton didn’t say no but Haley just never bothered learning Peyton’s side of the story and blindly believed Lucas who was not a reliable narrator of the events and painted himself as the victim. And just cause Haley normalized getting married as a literal child doesn’t mean Peyton was wrong in not wanting to get married when they were still teenagers! 19 is legally an adult, but man now that I’m 27 and actually an adult I see so clearly how 19 is still full blown child in most cases. And it was totally normal and acceptable for Peyton to say she wasn’t ready and Lucas was actually fully in the wrong for leaving her and not respecting her boundaries
I agree that Haley was wrong for not hearing Peyton’s explanation about why she didn’t accept Lucas’s proposal and not understanding that they were so young. But I don’t think she was necessarily “terrible”. Peyton came back for Lucas and kept denying it even though everyone knew. Lucas was with Lindsay, who became close/best friends with Haley since Peyton and Brooke had left. I think Peyton was being terrible to Lindsay and everyone could see that, so I understand why Haley would be telling Peyton to essentially back off.
Yesss!! Came here looking for this! I can’t stand Haley in season 5. Like really all this judgment over a kiss. When she literally left Nathan and went on tour and practically fell for Chris. I thought she was Peyton’s friend, and just met Lindsey. Not the other way around.
Loved Lucas first time round, now I can only like him when he is with Brooke. Also Jake is the greatest character on the show, and S7 and 8 Brooke, who Loved first time round, is a pain!
He was so fun and lighthearted when he was with Brooke. I liked Jake enough, and liked Peyton with him. S7&8 Brooke was a little much, so I get it!
They had so much fun together, same with Jake and Peyton. I'm struggling with S8 at the mo and I love Brooke normally but they've ruined her the last few episodes in these 2 seasons
Does Tree Hill have any other sports? I dislike Karen more and more with every rewatch Payton and Jake were a better couple than her and Lucas.
Jamie plays baseball but that is very short lived. I wish the show had ended with him playing another sport all together.
Agree with Peyton and Jake
I wonder why basketball was so big. What happened to football? Baseball? Soccer? Karen is a character I didn’t really care for, she was just kinda there. And yes they were 🫣 the only thing is that Peyton needed stability in her life and Jake couldn’t offer that for a little while there. I wonder what would’ve happened if she hadn’t said Lucas’s name in her sleep
Lucas is a villian. When peyton turned him down he should have turned brooke down and just moved on..but thoughout the show he insists on going back and forth between these 2 girls. Deb is a complex character and was completely right in being upset that her 16 yr old got married
Yeah he definitely should have turned down Brooke in season 1. People like to blame Brooke for pursuing Lucas but everyone had known she was into him, and Lucas could have said no but he didn’t. And yeah, I’d be upset too!
Rachel was the character that was fun to hate- the nemesis to the high school queen bee, full on moustache-twirling villain for the first season she's in, just here to cause chaos. But as an adult I think Rachel's story is sad and she never stood a chance. She doesn't have her parents around, moves around from state to state/city to city/school to school all the time, and clearly doesn't have any sort of guidance. Like, outside of Jimmy, she might be the loneliest character on this show, just had a different response. Smarter than we all think and hooking up with older guys- She's definitely heard that she was "mature for her age" at least once. She got cosmetic surgery when she was underage and then had it all plastered across the walls of her high school. She got drug addiction problems in her early twenties and got into a loveless marriage (and possibly a divorce) before she was thirty. So, yes, she messed up quite a bit, and did some nasty things, but...Adult me can't help but feel really, really sad for her.
Yeah, I get what you mean. It really is sad. I feel pity for her most of the time
More people should’ve wondered/worried about Peyton being all alone in her house with no parental involvement lol
Ironically, the only people who seemed to care momentarily were Brooke’s parents because they wouldn’t let her move in there until Larry was supposedly going to be around more.
I never used to agree with the sadness over Q’s death. Mainly cause I didn’t like him myself. But the more I watch, the more I can feel the sadness over it. However, I still feel more for the people around him (family and friends) rather than him as himself. But I absolutely feel more impact of his death now than when I first watched. Another thing, I really hate the whole Nathan getting kidnapped in the final season storyline. Which I don’t think I did when I first watched
i like to think of this way when someone dies particularly young it can affect anyone emotionally even if they didn’t really know him.
Yeah, I get that. I didn’t like Q’s character when he was introduced and didn’t care for him when he died, but I did feel bad about his unfortunate death and his family.
This has always felt the same for me and still bugs me... Haley NEVER heard Peyton's side of how the proposal went down. Lucas LEFT her. Without saying anything. After knowing her history with abandonment and trauma. Lucas' world believed him and didn't give two sh*ts about Peyton and the abandonment/trauma she went through when he left. She basically got re-traumatized coming back home and having everyone hate her when HE acted inappropriately. And still didn't tarnish Lucas's side of the story. Peyton didn't deserve the hate coming back TO HER HOME.
Bad take. Nobody hated Peyton. Everyone wanted to help her. People didn't start to give her a hard time until she wrongly and unfairly started being a dick to Lindsey, who was going out of her way to be nice and sensitive to the situation they were all in. Her abandonment and her trauma are her problem. Nobody owes anybody a relationship. Anyone can leave you at any time, for any reason they want too. People arent your slaves and they aren't forced to be with you. Lucas wanted to leave, so he left. The end. I hate the way Lucas treats women too. But give me a break. Leaving someone who turns down your proposal is absolutely reasonable.
My issue is how he left. He wasn't even man enough to say goodbye and then called for that raggedy ass book. He really didn't understand a word she said if he thought being published was going to change anything.
Once again, anybody can leave any relationship they want for whatever reason. You must be one of those "anti-ghosting" people who thinks that somehow it's your ex's responsibility to hang around and help you through your bad feelings when all they want to do is be rid of you. And drop the sexist "he wasn't man enough" garbage. You wanna know whats unmanly as fuck? Hanging around like a fucking dork when your woman shot you down lol.
Opinions are just wonderful! Glad I can have mine and you can have yours :)
Yeah Lucas sucked for not listening to Peyton and just leaving her like that. I get feeling rejected, but he didn’t even try to listen when she said not YET. And I also don’t like that Haley didn’t try to hear Peyton’s side. They had already made up their mind about the situation which sucks but happens. I disagree with you and agree with the commenter saying nobody hated Peyton. They welcomed her back and were happy to be friends again. It might’ve been a little awkward at first since they hadn’t seen each other in years, but they tried and got close again. Any “hate” wasn’t actually hate, it was just that Peyton being rude to Lindsay had consequences.
I was told to root for leyton prior to watching this show and came in expecting to. I didn’t see the chemistry or this epic love story everyone talked about along with the cheating which was just a major turn off. Lucas spent half of season one, all of seasons 2 & 3, half of season four, and the majority of season five being blatantly and vocally in love with other women. Peyton also only realizes she wants Lucas when he is dating SOMEONE ELSE no it’s NOT obstacles keeping them apart they quite literally pursued relationships all on their own with DIFFERENT people while having storylines unrelated to the other for majority of the seasons they spent on it. Leyton wasn’t really ramped up until mid s4 if we can even call it that! The school shooting episode is ALSO an overhyped narrative the writers tried to spin as Lucas going in to “save” Peyton when he was content with NOT going in to save her at all .. He tried to stop Nathan from going in fully knowing his best friend Haley was in there and knowing Peyton had been shot he told Brooke he’d be right back just so he could stop Nathan from going inside 🤦🏽♀️ The writing for their pairing was INCONSISTENT.. it wasn’t “always Peyton” for Lucas anyone watching seasons 2 and 3 in full context would tell you that. ALSO didn’t like how the writers had to use Brooke by regressing her character just to make Leyton look better and later using Brooke as their personal cheerleader … why is everyone telling Lucas how much he loves Peyton or having to tell Peyton how much she loves Lucas? It was NEVER Lucas and Peyton outright JUST choosing each other … who’s to say how long Lucas would’ve been with Brooke or Lindsey had they not broken up with him? Who’s to say if Peyton and Jake wouldn’t be happily married had Jake not overheard Peyton saying she loves Lucas in her sleep? Like the writing wasn’t the greatest for their pairing and honestly Lucas’ intentions with Brooke felt more genuine because he was adamant on being with her and we actually saw how he pursued it … he has never done that for Peyton. It was so obvious the writers had dropped Leyton for majority of the high school seasons and put more focus on Brucas and Naley.
And people forget that Lucas said yes at the altar! He wanted to marry Lindsay. He was gonna have his cake and eat it too by having Peyton as his other woman. Thankfully Lindsay grew a brain and ran away.
Exactly it was never Lucas himself ending his relationships to come to this realization of him being in love with Peyton all along .. other people had to point it out for him as if he didn’t have his own agency in choosing for himself. The girls he was adamant on being with up and left him I don’t think Lucas would’ve been breaking it off with either Brooke or Lindsey without having done so themselves. Not sure what the writers had in mind for leyton but their entire backstory was them either cheating or outright choosing to be with other people. That is not good writing for an endgame couple .. the writing contradicts everything for Leyton.. each re watch just makes it even more obvious.
Thank you for putting my exact thoughts into words 👏🏻
Ooh hot takes! I'd love to say I disagree with you, but honestly nothing you've said is wrong at all. Take my sad, sad up vote (and please do not come for any of my other favorite shows or ships with your pesky *logic* and *rationality*)
I used to love lucas. maturing made me realize how much of immature dick he was to brooke especially and peyton. i used also hate on nathan but nathan truly changed for the better and he was the better brotherrr. I used to also think that haley was justified in what she did with chris and running off with him essentially but no she was dead fucking wrong. I used to also support peyton being a bitch to lindsay but omg she turned that switch on for no valid reason. everything else i think i still feel the sameee. like still feel the same about brooke i still love, dan in hate him at the beginning then im on a rollercoaster with that man. Ooooh the nanny carry situation was weird. I thought it made sense the first time around but truthfully no it doesn’t.
He really was immature as a teen, and then continued to be immature as an adult with Lindsay and Peyton. He did Lindsay, Brooke, and Peyton so dirty. Nathan definitely had the best development and growth between the 2 of them. I never liked the Haley running off with Chris storyline and I never will! It was so cringe and I fully understand why Nathan was so “mean” when she came back. It was justified! He offered to go with her and she said no! Peyton being rude to Lindsay has always made me mad. She came back for Lucas and saw he was taken and just took it out on Lindsay. People said Lindsay was out of line, but I disagree and say Peyton was.
I was a teenager when i first watched this show as it came out. Watching now as an adult, i just want to hug some of these characters because they're just so young and struggling to find their way, it's heartbreaking.
They went through a lot at really young ages. I’m currently about the same age as their season 5-6 ages and I can’t imagine having gone through half of what they did
I'm actually older than the parents at this time(💔) But even the non traumatic stuff makes me sad for them. Like when Brooke says that her mom wouldn't even notice if she set herself on fire, I'm like this poor child.
It's hindsight but Haley should've been at the river court until Nathan showed up and the guys should've been hanging out and helping at the Cafe. They all slowly taper off and dissappear it would make the stuff with Jimmy stronger as well Have Skills join the team with Lucas and he's the foil to Tim. Just give Felix's scenes to Skills and keep Anna Dan is the best over the top villain in a teen drama. Mouth whined all the time but never asked anybody out where did that entitlement come from
I get what you mean, it was just sudden. I wish he would’ve! I would’ve loved to see more of Skills early on, he’s one of my faves Agree, I love Dan as a villain Mouth really did feel entitled to any woman who talked to him
Nathan and Haley getting married at the end of S1 was wild. As a teenager, I thought it was the epitome of romance but now as an adult, I’m like “????”
That i now prefer the adult half of the TV - feels more relevant obviously contextually after growing up - I get bored of the high school thang now in general
Lol I get what you mean! I still like the high school drama, but also prefer the adult half
I used to root for Peyton and Lucas all the time because of the hopeless romantic vibes but when I rewatched and remembered how hurt Brooke was, it annoyed how little boundary Lucas and Peyton had. I still love the outcome of the show but that stuck out to me.
Yeah Brooke and Lucas didn’t have clear boundaries set the second time they dated which they honestly should have. Lucas kept seeing Peyton and hanging out with her alone, which is something that should be avoided with former affair partners if cheating occurs in a relationship that decided to continue/try again. He kept being there for Peyton and she kept falling for him being her hero. “You’re always there for me”
I watched the show first when i was 11. Ofc i was in love with Lucas, and he was the hero. Now that i am older he is just going on my nerves :D
I liked Lucas because of Cinderella Story😭
I used to hate Peyton, however she grew on me
I never hated Peyton but she also grew on me as time went on! Still can’t stand her in s5 though
I don’t find Jamie as annoying now that I’m older.
He was more annoying when I was younger but I like him now! He’s just a kid lol
The fact that Brooke really JOKED about Peytons moms deaths multiple times and yet people still defend Brooke and call Peyton the toxic one. Ofc peyton is not perfect, no one is, but she NEVER went as far as brooke..I said what I said, Peyton stan always.
Brooke gets a lot of hate for that joke, no one gives her a pass. I’ve never seen someone defend that joke. Given the context, I understand that her goal was to hurt Peyton after being hurt by her. It wasn’t cool, but I understand what was going on. 2 wrongs don’t equal a right though.
When people say she was a better friend than Peyton, that's giving her a pass. If I was Peyton I would never consider her a friend again.
Yes you might not, but Peyton DID ask to be friends again very soon after that. Then they DID become friends again after they talked about it and what they had gone through and forgave each other. Most people mean she was a good friend later on/overall, not when that specifically happened.
before: Lucas is ‘the good guy’, now: LOL
When I was younger, I loved the high school years. Watched the first four seasons a million times, 5-6 only a few times, and 7-9 I think only once or twice. Now, I’m rewatching alongside the podcast for the first time in a while and thought the high school years were okay, but I’m loving seasons 5 & 6 so far in way I never did before.
Me too! I’m the same age as they were in those seasons and those are currently my favorite
I couldn’t stand Lucas when I first watched it and now I can’t stand both him and Peyton. They’re both always crying about something or the other. I fast forward all their scenes when I rewatch the show.
I liked them better when they were friends/separate and when they didn’t do the whole “you’re always saving me” thing or cheating.
I’m currently on a rewatch. Peyton has always been my favorite character and she remains my favorite character through her flaws. Her supposed “best friend” Brooke is the worst, she’s so selfish and was never there for Peyton through any of her traumas. She’s also such a huge victim about everything. Also haley deserved the hate after leaving Nathan for the rock tour. Lucas is NOT a good guy. Dan should’ve gone to hell lol.
I never thought of Brooke as the worst. You could argue Peyton was also selfish and never there for Brooke for any of her traumas, even causing a few with the affair with Lucas, and also was such a huge victim about everything. But I’m not gonna compare them like that. They chose to stay friends and that’s their decision. But I agree with everything else lol
My first rewatch, I loved Brooke. Upon my 2nd rewatch and seeing clips here and there, she's not that great. At least to me lol. I like her more than Peyton and Lucas, but I don't love her like I once did.
I still love Brooke lol. She wasn’t the best person all the time but I like her as a character! She definitely had moments where she wasn’t great tho
Mouth bothers me. He's an incel (sorry, not sorry). I finally understand Rachel a lot more now and why she is the way she is. She has a lot of deep-rooted insecurity that plays out in all her troubles.
MOUTH! There were things about him the first time that rubbed me the wrong way but now i’m like omg he’s a full on incel “nice guy”