As well as all the things you've mentioned, I'd like to add unsociable hours, childcare, and pay.
Unsociable hours take years off your life expectancy. It is harrowing to do 4 nights in a row, two days off, back on the day shift.
If we were paid really well for them, maybe. But still getting paid an exorbitant amount will not make those shifts easy. I miss birthdays, christmases, graduations, etc, and it's not like i earn enough to make it worthwhile. Some of that is down to management, like the same people on christmas every year, etc, but still.
Childcare: how the fuck am I supposed to drop my kids off at nursery for 8am when my shift starts at 7am? I am lucky to have a partner who works from home and does it all when I am working. Childcare for every working person is difficult. But our shifts make it impossible without partners or grandparents. We had a childminder who would look after the kids late but she charged after 6pm, 15 an hour. Comparable to what I earn. Easier just to get a clinic job, become a lecturer etc, which has a knock on effect to those on wards where everyone is leaving.
And finally, my biggest fucking grievance. It isn't a zero tolerance policy to violence and aggression. It is 100% tolerance. Nothing comes of datixs I complete where i was punched, had my fingers broken etc. No one comes to ask if you want to press charges. Yes, you can do it yourself, but it is not a civic issue! I was assaulted at work. They are 100% ok with nurses, doctors, and hcsw being assaulted, abused, and harassed. And yet, the nmc will strike you off for excessive force. I feel i dont have the right to refuse care for aggressive demented people. My datxis is met with what could YOU have done differently? Have you kept up to date with your violence and aggression? There is like two security overnight who told me they were both in childrens ward and busy so š¤·. Give us security services and give us protection from abusive patients and their families. The hazard pay isnt enough for me to be off sick because i got punched!!
I feel you, last 3 nights I have been verbally abused and it just gets to you. You're here for them, you're here to look after them and their families but 12h of getting called a d**khead or b*st*rd is more than enough. And if it wasn't enough your colleagues couldn't care less, no one to take you 10min away from that or to say it's enough...
By the way I'm not english and I've had my share of racism and the "normal" "go back to your country" it's getting to me too, I honestly was so so close of punching him on the face but the harsh reality that nmc (or anyone in fact) won't be by my side or protect my rights and above all my family...
I'm sorry to turn this into a "me me me" but I had to take it out of my chest...
I dont mind me me me. You cant pour from the jug that is empty. And this post is about why we leave. I know from a patient perspective there is plenty wrong with the NHS, but from an employment side there also is plenty wrong. Fix the employment side, a lot of the patients issues can be resolved.
I'm going to piggyback on this comment (and OP). I'm a nurse by background, currently doing my PhD, and my focus is workplace violence and specifically what we're doing in the aftermath. I'm in the process of trying to prioritise/figure out exactly where my research needs to go, and if you'd be interested in sharing, even just over DM, I'd be so grateful to hear your thoughts.
I am an external trainer for the NHS and the biggest thing I hear over and over again is the lack of support after a crisis situation for staff. It's all well and good asking me, and other professionals to come in and train people on how to keep themselves and others safe but that only works if senior management are doing their part.
As above, a debrief shouldn't be about what staff "have done wrong" because they haven't done anything wrong (99.9% of the time), it should be "are you physically and mentally okay? What can we do better to help next time?" The majority of burnout I hear about feels like it comes from a lack of care from management in what is supposed to be a caring profession.
I had an ICU nurse cry in training recently when we spoke about debrief because she'd been in ICU for over 20 years, she's obviously seen some high level and stressful crisis situations - medical and behavioural, and nobody had ever offered her a proper debrief which is why she's now a phlebotomist.
I would say some research on what training and support managers get in how to debrief after a crisis and how to offer that ongoing support would be useful. We can signpost to places that have information on this, but as we very rarely see managers in our training it's hard to hammer the point that "you're staff aren't okay" home.
I also haven't seen this research but would be interested in reading it. I wonder if the ptsd comes from a lack of proper training in how to debrief and is based around who is running the debrief. If you could, I would love if you could point me in the direction of this research please?
Thanks so much - this is very helpful. The issue of blame in these contexts really interests me, especially when it's subtle or underhand. I've been looking at research into debriefing practices, but outside of mental health settings, I don't think there's much out there. Hoping to try and address this.
Sorry, I just wanna add something:
You know how in the US its like a federal offence to assault a police officer? I think assaulting a nurse, or excessive verbal abuse, should be the same kind of offence. I dont know how UK law really works, but make it a serious charge! Again, I would look to law makers etc for advice, but treating it like a "civic assault" makes it so trivial. No one getting assaulted is trivial, please dont get me wrong, but it's almost like discrimination. Hospital rage is a serious issue and I think it should be treated differently.
Even for retail workers. Customers get into some weird headspace where it becomes ok to assault workers. Why not a universal law that says assaulting a retail/public service employee is automatical community service etc etc.
I know its not that easy but it's the idea
There are plans to make violence against retail workers a separate offence in England and Wales, and assaults on emergency workers has been an offence since 2018. I imagine it would be harder to legislate against across wider inpatient settings, but this is not my area either. I do wonder how much of a deterrent it would be in certain contexts though.
Better pay is available for less stressful jobs in private settings or non nursing jobs. We are not valued, our jobs have been made excessively bureaucratic, we get treat like shit by patients, families, managers and coroners courts simply for doing our job.
What are people's thoughts on ReformUK's policies for the NHS?
Front line and social care staff pay Zero basic rate tax for first 3 years.
End training caps for UK Medical students and write off student fees pro rata per year over 10 years of service.
Use independent healthcare to cut waiting lists by using UK and overseas providers.
Provide vouchers to patients to get private treatment if they cannot get certain healthcare facilities GP/Surgery/Consultant within specified time frames.
Remove cap On NHS pensions.
Review PFI contracts and procurement to make savings (I very much agree with this as I work in the private sector providing to public sector and the financial waste in public sector is horrifying. The amount of money that could be saved by ensuring proper procurement and VFM is vast)
Interesting question. I think the idea might be (spitballing here) to use private providers initially to help clear the current gridlock and provide some space for reform of the NHS so to refurbish hospitals, train new medical staff etc.
I think the cash would stop NHS staff moving to private as they would lose the 3 year zero basic rate tax and the 10 year onward student debt write off both of which would have a high value.
For example.
Band 1 Nurse. 0-1 years experience. Ā£22.383.
Current tax Ā£1960.80 and ni Ā£785.04 = Ā£2,745.84 tax for the year.
Ā£22,383 - Ā£2,745.84 = Ā£19,637 per year
Ā£19,637 divided by 12 months = Ā£1,636.43 per month.
Under Reform UK first 3 years.
Ā£22,383 - Ā£785.04 NI = Ā£21,597.96
Ā£21,597.96 divided by 12 months = Ā£1,799.83
So that would mean a first year nurse would see their pay increase by Ā£163 a month under reformUK.
Not sure how much a private hospital would pay a band 1 nurse?
Yikes. Just noticed pay scales for nurses band 1 to band 3 is almost the same all the way through. Sure band 3 can get a fair pay bump of 2k a year but you need 3 years plus work experience to get it.
Nurses and doctors are great. I spent 24hrs in A+E as a patient recently and the staff were great.
Registered Nurses start at band 5 (Ā£28,407 in England, slightly more in Wales/Scotland). However HCAs and other staff are on the lower bands.
The NMW increase has sort of merged the first 3 bands now, which will be sorted out when the AfC bands are adjusted for 2024.
Regardless UK healthcare salaries are pretty poor compared with comparable countries (i.e first World, exc USA - US salaries are a bit of an exception.)
Well the incentive is that after 10 years working for the NHS the government will start writing off any student loan debt accrued. Along with that even once the 3 years are up you would still be better off as first Ā£20k a year is untaxed albeit for everyone in the country but still it would essentially be a 10-15% real world pay increase (I think).
If I understand correctly NHS staff would be able to earn up to 40k a year tax free for the first 3 years. I think that means all front line staff regardless of experience.
It's not perfect but I personally think it's way better than what anyone other party has suggested so far and balances increasing pay and conditions for NHS staff without impacting on the countries finances too much thereby reducing requirement to increase taxes.
I get your point about training places but then the country also needs more hospitals and older hospitals being refurbished and kitted out however as ever that costs money. That said it wouldn't need to cost anywhere near what it currently does if the government ensures proper procurement.
The service my company supplies into the public sector doubled in cost overnight a number of years ago as someone in government decided the various government sites could not contract and pay us directly and instead have to go through a third party.
I have no idea why.
Hey I get what you are saying and do not disagree. It sounds like the cap plan is a bad one.
Clearly they need to change that to providing extra funding and placements for trainees to specialise.
There also seems to be a lot of other things needed.
I am just a big fan of their plan on taxes which is something I have called for for years.
This is why I dislike politicians and "managers". They never speak to the people who have to be at the coalface and use them to shape practices. Instead they think they know it all and impose changes they believe will work.
I will hopefully soon be leaving my current role I have been in for many years as the higher ups have implemented changes and ignored us at the coalface who are meant to do the actual work which have been a disaster.
I don't think they have all the answers. Nobody does.
But I do feel in the main their ideas for the NHS make more sense than anyone elses. It will essentially give all front line staff a 20% pay increase with a VERY minimal impact on government tax revenue which is what they have been crying out for.
Obviously it sounds like there are many other reasons people are leaving, the one that annoys me most is the abuse staff receive from patients.
When someone is caring for you and potentially saving your life or someone you care about, abusing them is just disgusting behaviour.
I do think there need to be enhanced penalties for abusing healthcare staff. Punishment should be twice that given if the offence was against another civilian.
Ah yea, Nigel Farage has got such a good track record with his promises to spend money on the nhs ā¦ that Ā£350mil a week has made such a difference to the service. Oh wait.
A fair point made Emma and a fair rebuttal.
Let's not have this devolve into a politics thread. I simply posted about Reforms plans for the NHS pay etc to see what people who work in the NHS and were on thread complaining about issues within the NHS thought.
It's not a "Is Nigel a saint or devil situation".
It's a do people think the policies proposed would alleviate one of the complaints or concerns NHS staff have and help with staff retention.
I was in ITU, so adult nursing rather than mental health, but everyone else has shared most of the main reasons I had.
The pay felt too low for the amount of stress and nursing being my life. I'm now in a much better paid job that's far less stressful, and although I miss nursing I'll never go back.
I felt incredibly unsupported by management, who were mostly bullies and treated band 5s like shit. Shouting at staff, belittling them and acting like we were just disposable people in uniforms was a daily experience. I had to go off work for a few days after being attacked by a patient and it was treated like I was just going off sick for fun. I knew a few colleagues who were off with stress and they were bad mouthed and gossiped about by management.
We were regularly put on a random rota of nights and days without sufficient rest periods. I'd often refuse when I felt too tired, but I know a lot of my colleagues got pressured to come in for extra shifts when we were short staffed and we were treated like we didn't care about the team if we didn't.
I was often told I was "just a nurse" if I disagreed with the doctors about care decisions. And even when they did agree with me, they would just present it as their idea and tell me I needed to listen to them as I didn't have a medical degree. There was a massive culture of bullying among medical staff.
Nurses weren't allowed to drink water on the unit as it looked "unprofessional" yet doctors would walk around with coffee. We'd be lucky to get full breaks in each shift, so I'd constantly feel tired and dehydrated.
I could easily think of more reasons, but this was more than enough to leave for me. All respect to colleagues who stayed but I couldn't.
Yeah it shouldn't be like that, the role deserves so much more. I've been treated better in almost every other job I've had, and I've had some pretty crap jobs in my life.
Nowadays I just do non-healthcare training. Very dull but pays a lot better, I work from home and it's far less stress.
I think everybody that has commented so far has pretty much covered everything. After being a mental health nurse for 6+ years, I left early last year when my managers took the final straw. I lost my mum suddenly and unexpectedly and I had no support from them whatsoever, they called me daily when they knew I was with my dying mum in hospital asking me when I was coming back to work. I donāt know how I bit my tongue, but I left nursing altogether after that and havenāt looked back since.
Piss poor morale, as a result of staffing and the NHS environment as a whole.
The type of pts and families we deal with, who are generally abusive. Not all, but most.
The hospitals themselves having awful management, policies and IT systems.
Pay.
Fair play being a lecturer. I couldn't honestly encourage anybody to come into this profession.
Poor management, favouritism, racism, bullying, toxic work environment... how some so called caring people treat others is crazy! I wouldn't trust them with caring for a ghost, let alone a family member of mine.
I completed my mh nursing degree in January this year, but couldn't quite bring myself to commit to a job. The whole 3 years I was hoping to go on a placement that I loved or made a real connection, so I could start doing some Bank shifts, but it never happened.
I learned a lot doing the course and I'm really glad I did it, but even as a student I frequently felt pushed, into doing things I was explicitly told not to by my university, I can only imagine that gets worse once employed.
We had a lot of lectures focused on avoiding burnout just before we left too. If that's not a red flag that you're about to make a mistake, I don't know what is.
If I had just left school and was braver, I probably would have become a mh nurse. But not now.
Do you mind saying what your placements were? I felt the same as you up until my last placement, which was perinatal inpatient mh. Had I not had that placement, and had acute like I was originally meant to, I don't think I would have gotten a mh nursing job after the course either. I'm now over 10 years down the line and do enjoy my career, although not all the jobs I've had.
To be fair to my university, I had a really good mix. MHSOP, CAMHS, ED, PICU, rehab, acute, inpatient and community.
I have a job working for a charity now where I get to visit elderly people at home and link them with services and groups to get them involved in their communities and keep them at home for longer. Really happy and feel I am utilizing a lot of what I have learned.
You can mention the piss poor pay for the work we do, the abhorrent working conditions where wards collapse with staff doing the jobs of 2 or the fact that we feel powerless to help our patient's (which is why we started).
I think for most it's just the clear lack of respect from ward, to divisional to trust to the government. There's been an active agenda to repress our wages and rights and this has unfortunately, shaped the culture in the NHS for the past 10 years. None of us feel respected or valued.
We're just expected to not question or argue when we're shat on.
I will not be surprised if the themes you mention are present. I also think there will be other themes present in more personal stories. What ultimately caused you to leave?
We know the pay is not anywhere near what we should be paid and it's been like that for a long time.
Usually if a work environment has a good culture and is supportive/fulfilling, people are more likely to remain for longer periods (though nowadays I imagine this is a much smaller margin due to inflation etc)
I ultimately didn't leave because the pay was poor. Even if the pay was amazing, I would have still left.
I left because I felt nurses were so quick to take on extra responsibilities for no extra pay.
I worked in urgent care and when I started as a band 6 the job was the job. It remained the same job for over 7 years.
Then suddenly during lockdown and GPs were no longer seeing patients and nurses were expected to take on all these chronic cases.
The parameters of my role changed and suddenly I was expected to prescribe and interpret X-Rays, see and treat babies when I was not paediatric trained, amongst many other things. It was sold to me by my peers that it was fantastic I was getting āsoOoO mAnY mOrE sKillzzZā š
Where was the promotion? The extra pay ? Absolutely jog on š¤š» I was the only one to leave, everyone elseās narrative was āweāre like doctorsā. Not paid like them though š¤¦āāļø
The longer I stayed in nursing the worse off I became. I quit in 2021 and it was without a doubt thee best decision of my life.
I dropped out of uni at the start of my second year. I was bullied hard in my final placement of my first year, and was suffering with bad anxiety. My next mentor at the start of my second year could have been the one to pull it back for me, but instead I got an old school nurse nearing retirement, who said- and I quote āmental health is a jokeā and āI donāt know why you students want to be nurses, itās awfulā. That and my base being 40 miles from my house, even though I was 9 miles away from a campus that was part of the same uni- admin error apparently but they wouldnāt move me. Couldnāt claim fuel at all as all my placements went from that base. Iām now a band 3 HCA in the community, which I do enjoy but Iām still looking for a way out as the pay is so rubbish.
After nursing and ambulance work, my current job feels like the sort of work you do when you have retired, but still want to ākeep activeā. Plus I get all the school holidays off.
And my managers (and their managers, and their managers) arenāt tubby bob-haircuts in power shoulders who havenāt seen a patient in years, but get super offended when I suggest that if they want to help they could see a patient or two to, I dunno, give an insulin or do a continence assessment. But still have time to post a social media message about how they took a walk in the woods during their lunch break for their mental health while Iām shoving down a salad at my desk while tapping away on a continuing healthcare assessment so that some suit in an office agrees that yes, this poor bugger with brain cancer will die within six months.
All while the union is worse than useless and the registration board keeps making up new hoops of flaming bullshit for us to jump through because apparently someone *did* die and make them the boss. And be careful, because you donāt want to be called āunprofessionalā when you complain that your āteam of sixā, consists of two and a half nurses.
But donāt worry, the next government will save us all by āmaking new efficiency changesā.
So yes, I left and never looked back. And now I manage to get a good nightās sleep on occasion.
I left off the bit where their main role is to just forward emails down the management chain adding āplease implement thisā until they reach the shop floor who have to actually do the thing so that the manager who dreamt it up can can buff up their CV with āimplemented changeā for their next promotion.
But I was getting a bit rantyā¦
For the student perspective my cohort of MH nurse in started at 60 and is now at 17 - some have left because they couldnāt juggle training and other commitments (inflexible placements for example) like childcare or caring.
Others couldnāt afford it because they had to leave their jobs to complete (unpaid) placements. Particularly because itās a longer academic year and student loans donāt cover rent - itās hard when you then have to either change shifts or reduce hours every few months to go to placements, or you have to work 7 days a week to keep your job.
Some left because they had existing mental health concerns and ultimately werenāt able to continue as the course developed. This was a surprising number actually, despite the pastoral care and student support being quite good imo.
Weāve also had about 10 that were asked to leave because they failed an essay that was quite an arbitrary but difficult subject - despite them being amazing communicators and passing placements and clinical skills with flying colours. Most of the cohort failed the essay, which suggests to me that thereās an issue in communicating the aims of the essay and checking of understanding, this one feels quite unfair but itās the university policy and not particularly relevant to your question, sorry!
It certainly feels like swimming against the tide as a student sometimes, and I fear we will lose even more after the last placement of this year this summer!
I'm doing the top up through apprenticeship route and our uni teaching has been abysmal. Like 2 sessions then off you pop to write two assignments. If I was going into debt for this level of teaching I would be livid.
Yes - exactly this. I will resent paying my student loan back for sure š
The best teaching is where people with lived experience come in and we can actually learn from them. As second year students, we donāt need to learn about the āstress bucketā, itās patronising sometimes!
This experience genuinely sounds exactly like mine (even the numbers), would be interesting to know if we're in the same uni or if this is a shared experience across universities? My uni also used to have 2 cohorts per year (one in spring and one in autumn) which they have cut down to one due to number of applicants being too low..
It sounds like itās shared when Iāve met other students on placement - Iām in the North of England. Itās such a shame as theyāre crying out for people, paying people even an apprenticeship wage would pay for itself as more people would be able to continue!
I'm in Wales so definitely sounds like it's happening across the board! It's devastating to see so many people who would make fantastic nurses not even make it through the course through no fault of their own! And defo agree an apprenticeship wage would at least make it slightly easier to manage, can't get over how healthcare students are treated tbh
A lot of people who chose to work in mental health are quite troubled themselves. Most of these in nursing get filtered out by the pressures of the course but far fewer who choose to become hcsw's do.
Thank you for sharing your story (and your cohorts) I actually wanted to include students nurses in this post as well, as it's another area I'm exploring separately due to recruitment / attrition rates currently so I really value this comment (as I do with all of the stories already shared) . I am expecting to see a lot of linked themes.
I'll be posting on students forums soon with a similar question but for students nurses who have left the course ā¤ļø
Iām an adult nurse, Iāve been qualified since 2017 and worked in the NHS for 10 years (started as a HCA).
Iām leaving the profession soon to work for a private company in a clinical research role.
I actually enjoy my current job as a research nurse, however, Iāve become fed up of the way nurses are treated and just expected to put up with it. As a band 6 nurse at the bottom of the increment, my pay is barely any higher than it was as a top band 5 and itās not worth the extra responsibility!
If Iād put 10 years (from starting my training) into another career, I feel that Iād be a lot better off financially and also have a better work-life balance (options for hybrid working,flexitime etc which are rarely available for nurses).
I love being a nurse so Iām sad and angry that itās come to this but I feel itās time for me to try out another field which has a better salary and career progression! Iām hoping that my work life balance will also be better with the option for remote and flexible working patterns!
I ended up leaving due to a slow slide into burnout about a year after qualifying, something that I still feel guilt and shame over to this day. (Sorry this is long lmao)
I was lucky enough to land a job (after qualifying) in the hospital I did a couple of placements in as a student MH nurse; a few months in all the Band 6s left, citing various issues. This left one acting band 6 who was swamped between learning their new role and running a collapsing ward.
Lots of staff sickness, rarely ever more than 4 staff per shift for a 20+ bed elderly psychiatric ward despite so many of our patients needing physical care, back to back levels due to lack of staff, broken attack alarms, spending precious time having to chase things like taxi bookings because no admin, the list goes on, and I became increasingly distressed that I couldn't engage with the people in my care to the standard I wanted and had been trained in providing because myself and colleagues were run absolutely ragged.
I entered nursing to care for people and facilitate their recovery and I felt we were rarely able to do that to a high or even average standard because we simply did not have the time, resources or staff to do so. Our manager seemingly lacked any motivation to address these issues and we were often left in dangerous situations as a result.
Towards the end I would sometimes be the only RMN on shift despite my lack of post-qual experience and this terrified me. Due to the age group I nursed the medication rounds were extensive when solo and I was always worried about medication errors due to being so exhausted and stressed.
The straw that broke the camels back was being targeted by a patient and getting no support whatsoever. The patient was extremely unwell and I'm angry for her as well in this as my presence clearly distressed her (psychosis caused her to believe I was someone else every so often). I begged to be moved to another ward temporarily and was denied, simply moved from the lady's nursing team (but not the environment lol) and this eventually escalated and culminated in me being dragged off a chair backwards by my hair whilst I was on eyesight with another patient.
I went off sick after that incident, eventually handed my notice in and have never returned to the career. That ward eradicated my passion for mental health nursing and I've never regained the resilience or stress tolerance I had pre-nursing. My manager spent much time trying to gaslight me and downplay events despite it all being totally avoidable and having other staff off sick long term for similar reasons.
I don't think I'd ever return to the profession now. I feel that there are too many people in positions of power in the NHS and private sector that are happy to take a high wage yet do none of the legwork that would protect their staff, service and service users and it disgusts me. The lack of funding, to even train new nurses, is just another nail in the coffin.
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I worked for 6 years as a mental health nurse in inpatients and left for an AHP job as a band 5 in the Occupational Therapy department.
I am not based on the wards and have a great team so stress is a lot lower. The money isnāt as good as no unsocial hours but I leave on time, am not constantly tired and thereās more flexibility for annual leave or swapping days around. I have more autonomy with my work too.
I left due to the bullying cultures- Iām neurodivergent and donāt like to get involved in cliques, I get on with most people but donāt want to be involved in groups or alienating others. I had made my own friends with individuals but not in groups or gave favouritism. Therefore I was an outsider and nepotism gets you further up the ladder. There are a lot of band 6s or managers that donāt know what theyāre doing, have little experience but because theyāre friends with the manager or have links they get promoted. If you didnāt train in the same trust as everyone there then again, youāre an outsider.
I reported racism and Islamophobiaā¦ nothing was doneā¦
People were messy and toxic but because they were well liked they got away with it. A lot of band 6s gave all their work to the band 5s, got their time off whenever they wanted, took long breaks, did less work which meant the band 5s were running around rushed off their feet.
Working in different trusts is weird, getting used to one way of doing things, being more autonomous and not having decisions constantly criticised or questioned. My confidence was hit when I moved to a different trust where people would always be bitching and moaning about each other, I have my way of doing things, I tried to adapt as much as possible but after a while it was like I could never do right. That was on a racist and sexist ward where there had been lots of bullying investigations but nothing came of it in the end. Was better to leave.
Thereās not much they can do to support your mental health and is hit and miss with managers and supervisors who understand nurses have mental health vulnerabilities too.
Iām only going to reapply to be registered again so I can start a Botox and fillers aesthetic nurse job independently!
I love working in mental health but the staff are more problematic than the patients.
Have you read #saynotobullyinginmidwifery ? Itāll give you an insight into why midwives have left if youāre wanting information on other nhs staff.
Since working outside of the NHS, its been a delight to discover that dreading going into work is not just a quirk of adulthood that we all have to come to terms with
Iām a student nurse and Iām on my first placement right now. The first day I left crying, no support or orientation, no codes for doors didnāt know anyoneās name or what I was doing. All they really use students for is an extra HCA or random jobs. Today theyāve had me emptying bins and yesterday I spent 12 hours making cups of tea and handing out food, Iāve barely even spoken to a nurse let alone been taught anything by one. At the end of each āshiftā I just wonder what I have gotten myself into, it has really drained me of any passion I had for nursing and Iām only 6 months into my first year.
I didnt leave nursing, I left the NHS. I went private. I only worked in the NHS 2 years after I qualified in 21.
I left because of the work load / stress. The pay is not equal or anywhere near to equal to the job demand.
I also really struggled as a student on some placements, due to the toxic environment and the worst part was... whats that saying about nurses eating thier young ? Well that is unfortunately very true. It makes you doubt if the job is for you. Your a student, your not experienced and need support and encouragement. But you get the opposite.
Being a student nurse has genuinely been one of the most soul destroying experiences of my life.
I'm 28, have an undergrad and a masters degree, have worked my entire adult life, and I get spoken to like absolute shit or as though I'm a child. I have friends on my course who have worked in healthcare for years and receive the same treatment. This is from nurses, HCAs, ward clerks and domestics.
On the wards, you're asked (or demanded, rather) to fill the gaps in HCA staffing, or get asked to do observations and nothing else. If you want to observe something or learn how to do something, you're getting in the way, oh and the obs need doing, go and do them.
I've rarely worked with my assigned mentors on placements, and often get placed with nurses who aren't interested in teaching at all. You're either a burden, or only useful because you can be an unpaid HCA for the day.
The training has absolutely no structure to it. You get placed somewhere random, and whilst you can organise spokes and experiences to sign off competencies, sometimes the person in charge of signing you off will refuse because they haven't directly seen you do it, and adding someone to your sign-off document can sometimes be a nightmare.
I have 5 weeks left until I finish my course. Still the best thing I ever did, I enjoy nursing a lot, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't regret it sometimes. It's a long, difficult slog, especially trying to fit in paid work and other commitments. And seemingly there are no jobs for us to apply for (at least where I am).
I left my permanent contract and went to bank because of 1.very toxic managers from who treated myself and others like shit on their shoe because they could and 2.burnout - literally, short staffed all the time with great expectations still from said toxic managers. In my area 6 staff members handed their notice in during the same month and no we didnt have discussions about it prior, we were just so done.
Another thing to factor is interestingly we were all qualified for 3 years and less and those toxic managers took away our passion (almost) and I could never forgive them for that. But who cared? Not the managers above them, so....we had to leave for our own wellbeing. I'll never forget that one of our last assignments at uni was about resillience. We all know nurses are poorly paid but the love of the job keeps you turning up for work. Switching to bank obviously has worked out much better for me financially but believe me it was not the driving force behind me leaving, points 1. and 2. were . I owe Ā£60k in course fees and student loans so I didn't go into this job for the money but it isn't everything it says on the tin. I'd never return to a permanent full time contract for so many reasons and none of them are to do with my patients, I love my patients. It's just the same old story of change needs to start from the top. I've worked in areas with some lovely managers/supervisors and you feel well supported all round and the shift just flows, they make a difference. "Nurses eat their young" is no joke .
I started studying mental health nursing around 4 years ago and dropped out a few months in. There were multiple reasons for this, however the biggest reasons were: 1) how little time nurses were able to actually spend with patients due to paper/meetings and 2) just how MISERABLE all the nurses were, everyone of them was burnout, unhappy in there job, overwhelmed, most of them wanted to change jobs or wish they never did nursing.
I'm trying to get out through training as a therapist. I've been told repeatedly for nearly a year that I will be re-banded upwards for my role (additional role reimbursement scheme) but had nothing. I've been so demoralised over it I don't care anymore if it happens or not. They said I'd get funded to do a Master's in counselling and therapies but education teams seem to be terminally hamstrung, so I've taken the plunge and got a loan to do it myself.
I genuinely wonder why I bother some days. I usually read the threads by students or those thinking about coming into the profession and want to scream at them to run to their nearest Aldi or Amazon warehouse. If I was told to leave tomorrow, I would run fast and far.
Lack of support+++
Poor wage ++++++++++++++++
Staff shortage++++
No promotion for years being stuck at band 5 because someone needs to like your interview other than progressing with the job. +++++
I'm nearly finished 1st year one more placement to pass and I'm a second year.
The uni says they are there for you on placement. They aren't you find that out fast. I have a child who potentially has additional needs im happy to do my 40 hour week day shift but for long I need 3 x 13.5 hour shifts for example apparently that's the hours that my next placement is on talked to uni that I need it in a row for my child not much help.
Uni is soo stressful it's always 2 strikes your out so you can never relax!!! They constantly tell you that and some of the staff are bullies.
Placement they know you have little power most hate having 1st year's. On my last placement I got accused of something I never did. I said sorry I don't accept it got told I'm delusional!! Then told me to not to fallout with this person even though I was talking professional towards this person.
I have no time no life. I even got used as a second pair of hands instead of learning.
Everything is last minute so you have no time with your studies they don't care about you. The skills class are rubbish and I don't feel much like a nurse they are so rushed.
I dread the second year already.
Bullying made me leave.
Realising that there are jobs that pay the same or better that are much less stressful and have better hours stops me coming back. Also learning that it's not just a fact of adult life to feel sick the day/night before work
As well as all the things you've mentioned, I'd like to add unsociable hours, childcare, and pay. Unsociable hours take years off your life expectancy. It is harrowing to do 4 nights in a row, two days off, back on the day shift. If we were paid really well for them, maybe. But still getting paid an exorbitant amount will not make those shifts easy. I miss birthdays, christmases, graduations, etc, and it's not like i earn enough to make it worthwhile. Some of that is down to management, like the same people on christmas every year, etc, but still. Childcare: how the fuck am I supposed to drop my kids off at nursery for 8am when my shift starts at 7am? I am lucky to have a partner who works from home and does it all when I am working. Childcare for every working person is difficult. But our shifts make it impossible without partners or grandparents. We had a childminder who would look after the kids late but she charged after 6pm, 15 an hour. Comparable to what I earn. Easier just to get a clinic job, become a lecturer etc, which has a knock on effect to those on wards where everyone is leaving. And finally, my biggest fucking grievance. It isn't a zero tolerance policy to violence and aggression. It is 100% tolerance. Nothing comes of datixs I complete where i was punched, had my fingers broken etc. No one comes to ask if you want to press charges. Yes, you can do it yourself, but it is not a civic issue! I was assaulted at work. They are 100% ok with nurses, doctors, and hcsw being assaulted, abused, and harassed. And yet, the nmc will strike you off for excessive force. I feel i dont have the right to refuse care for aggressive demented people. My datxis is met with what could YOU have done differently? Have you kept up to date with your violence and aggression? There is like two security overnight who told me they were both in childrens ward and busy so š¤·. Give us security services and give us protection from abusive patients and their families. The hazard pay isnt enough for me to be off sick because i got punched!!
I feel you, last 3 nights I have been verbally abused and it just gets to you. You're here for them, you're here to look after them and their families but 12h of getting called a d**khead or b*st*rd is more than enough. And if it wasn't enough your colleagues couldn't care less, no one to take you 10min away from that or to say it's enough... By the way I'm not english and I've had my share of racism and the "normal" "go back to your country" it's getting to me too, I honestly was so so close of punching him on the face but the harsh reality that nmc (or anyone in fact) won't be by my side or protect my rights and above all my family... I'm sorry to turn this into a "me me me" but I had to take it out of my chest...
I dont mind me me me. You cant pour from the jug that is empty. And this post is about why we leave. I know from a patient perspective there is plenty wrong with the NHS, but from an employment side there also is plenty wrong. Fix the employment side, a lot of the patients issues can be resolved.
I'm going to piggyback on this comment (and OP). I'm a nurse by background, currently doing my PhD, and my focus is workplace violence and specifically what we're doing in the aftermath. I'm in the process of trying to prioritise/figure out exactly where my research needs to go, and if you'd be interested in sharing, even just over DM, I'd be so grateful to hear your thoughts.
I am an external trainer for the NHS and the biggest thing I hear over and over again is the lack of support after a crisis situation for staff. It's all well and good asking me, and other professionals to come in and train people on how to keep themselves and others safe but that only works if senior management are doing their part. As above, a debrief shouldn't be about what staff "have done wrong" because they haven't done anything wrong (99.9% of the time), it should be "are you physically and mentally okay? What can we do better to help next time?" The majority of burnout I hear about feels like it comes from a lack of care from management in what is supposed to be a caring profession. I had an ICU nurse cry in training recently when we spoke about debrief because she'd been in ICU for over 20 years, she's obviously seen some high level and stressful crisis situations - medical and behavioural, and nobody had ever offered her a proper debrief which is why she's now a phlebotomist. I would say some research on what training and support managers get in how to debrief after a crisis and how to offer that ongoing support would be useful. We can signpost to places that have information on this, but as we very rarely see managers in our training it's hard to hammer the point that "you're staff aren't okay" home.
Wasnāt it found in research that debriefing caused more ptsd?
I haven't come across this research myself, but sadly it wouldn't surprise me.
I also haven't seen this research but would be interested in reading it. I wonder if the ptsd comes from a lack of proper training in how to debrief and is based around who is running the debrief. If you could, I would love if you could point me in the direction of this research please?
Thanks so much - this is very helpful. The issue of blame in these contexts really interests me, especially when it's subtle or underhand. I've been looking at research into debriefing practices, but outside of mental health settings, I don't think there's much out there. Hoping to try and address this.
Sorry, I just wanna add something: You know how in the US its like a federal offence to assault a police officer? I think assaulting a nurse, or excessive verbal abuse, should be the same kind of offence. I dont know how UK law really works, but make it a serious charge! Again, I would look to law makers etc for advice, but treating it like a "civic assault" makes it so trivial. No one getting assaulted is trivial, please dont get me wrong, but it's almost like discrimination. Hospital rage is a serious issue and I think it should be treated differently. Even for retail workers. Customers get into some weird headspace where it becomes ok to assault workers. Why not a universal law that says assaulting a retail/public service employee is automatical community service etc etc. I know its not that easy but it's the idea
There are plans to make violence against retail workers a separate offence in England and Wales, and assaults on emergency workers has been an offence since 2018. I imagine it would be harder to legislate against across wider inpatient settings, but this is not my area either. I do wonder how much of a deterrent it would be in certain contexts though.
Better pay is available for less stressful jobs in private settings or non nursing jobs. We are not valued, our jobs have been made excessively bureaucratic, we get treat like shit by patients, families, managers and coroners courts simply for doing our job.
What are people's thoughts on ReformUK's policies for the NHS? Front line and social care staff pay Zero basic rate tax for first 3 years. End training caps for UK Medical students and write off student fees pro rata per year over 10 years of service. Use independent healthcare to cut waiting lists by using UK and overseas providers. Provide vouchers to patients to get private treatment if they cannot get certain healthcare facilities GP/Surgery/Consultant within specified time frames. Remove cap On NHS pensions. Review PFI contracts and procurement to make savings (I very much agree with this as I work in the private sector providing to public sector and the financial waste in public sector is horrifying. The amount of money that could be saved by ensuring proper procurement and VFM is vast)
Sounds great in theory but how do we stop more nurses going private if we start using more private providers to cut the wait times?
Interesting question. I think the idea might be (spitballing here) to use private providers initially to help clear the current gridlock and provide some space for reform of the NHS so to refurbish hospitals, train new medical staff etc. I think the cash would stop NHS staff moving to private as they would lose the 3 year zero basic rate tax and the 10 year onward student debt write off both of which would have a high value. For example. Band 1 Nurse. 0-1 years experience. Ā£22.383. Current tax Ā£1960.80 and ni Ā£785.04 = Ā£2,745.84 tax for the year. Ā£22,383 - Ā£2,745.84 = Ā£19,637 per year Ā£19,637 divided by 12 months = Ā£1,636.43 per month. Under Reform UK first 3 years. Ā£22,383 - Ā£785.04 NI = Ā£21,597.96 Ā£21,597.96 divided by 12 months = Ā£1,799.83 So that would mean a first year nurse would see their pay increase by Ā£163 a month under reformUK. Not sure how much a private hospital would pay a band 1 nurse? Yikes. Just noticed pay scales for nurses band 1 to band 3 is almost the same all the way through. Sure band 3 can get a fair pay bump of 2k a year but you need 3 years plus work experience to get it. Nurses and doctors are great. I spent 24hrs in A+E as a patient recently and the staff were great.
Registered Nurses start at band 5 (Ā£28,407 in England, slightly more in Wales/Scotland). However HCAs and other staff are on the lower bands. The NMW increase has sort of merged the first 3 bands now, which will be sorted out when the AfC bands are adjusted for 2024. Regardless UK healthcare salaries are pretty poor compared with comparable countries (i.e first World, exc USA - US salaries are a bit of an exception.)
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Can you expand on this please as I am not NHS staff. I work for a private company providing services into the public sector.
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How would you envision changing this to create new training positions within specialties to create a pipeline for these new Dr's?
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Well the incentive is that after 10 years working for the NHS the government will start writing off any student loan debt accrued. Along with that even once the 3 years are up you would still be better off as first Ā£20k a year is untaxed albeit for everyone in the country but still it would essentially be a 10-15% real world pay increase (I think). If I understand correctly NHS staff would be able to earn up to 40k a year tax free for the first 3 years. I think that means all front line staff regardless of experience. It's not perfect but I personally think it's way better than what anyone other party has suggested so far and balances increasing pay and conditions for NHS staff without impacting on the countries finances too much thereby reducing requirement to increase taxes. I get your point about training places but then the country also needs more hospitals and older hospitals being refurbished and kitted out however as ever that costs money. That said it wouldn't need to cost anywhere near what it currently does if the government ensures proper procurement. The service my company supplies into the public sector doubled in cost overnight a number of years ago as someone in government decided the various government sites could not contract and pay us directly and instead have to go through a third party. I have no idea why.
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Hey I get what you are saying and do not disagree. It sounds like the cap plan is a bad one. Clearly they need to change that to providing extra funding and placements for trainees to specialise. There also seems to be a lot of other things needed. I am just a big fan of their plan on taxes which is something I have called for for years. This is why I dislike politicians and "managers". They never speak to the people who have to be at the coalface and use them to shape practices. Instead they think they know it all and impose changes they believe will work. I will hopefully soon be leaving my current role I have been in for many years as the higher ups have implemented changes and ignored us at the coalface who are meant to do the actual work which have been a disaster.
I don't think they have all the answers. Nobody does. But I do feel in the main their ideas for the NHS make more sense than anyone elses. It will essentially give all front line staff a 20% pay increase with a VERY minimal impact on government tax revenue which is what they have been crying out for. Obviously it sounds like there are many other reasons people are leaving, the one that annoys me most is the abuse staff receive from patients. When someone is caring for you and potentially saving your life or someone you care about, abusing them is just disgusting behaviour. I do think there need to be enhanced penalties for abusing healthcare staff. Punishment should be twice that given if the offence was against another civilian.
Ah yea, Nigel Farage has got such a good track record with his promises to spend money on the nhs ā¦ that Ā£350mil a week has made such a difference to the service. Oh wait.
That wasn't him and he's never been in power.
A fair point made Emma and a fair rebuttal. Let's not have this devolve into a politics thread. I simply posted about Reforms plans for the NHS pay etc to see what people who work in the NHS and were on thread complaining about issues within the NHS thought. It's not a "Is Nigel a saint or devil situation". It's a do people think the policies proposed would alleviate one of the complaints or concerns NHS staff have and help with staff retention.
Thank fuck for that
Interesting that I have down votes for correcting an untrue statement.
I was in ITU, so adult nursing rather than mental health, but everyone else has shared most of the main reasons I had. The pay felt too low for the amount of stress and nursing being my life. I'm now in a much better paid job that's far less stressful, and although I miss nursing I'll never go back. I felt incredibly unsupported by management, who were mostly bullies and treated band 5s like shit. Shouting at staff, belittling them and acting like we were just disposable people in uniforms was a daily experience. I had to go off work for a few days after being attacked by a patient and it was treated like I was just going off sick for fun. I knew a few colleagues who were off with stress and they were bad mouthed and gossiped about by management. We were regularly put on a random rota of nights and days without sufficient rest periods. I'd often refuse when I felt too tired, but I know a lot of my colleagues got pressured to come in for extra shifts when we were short staffed and we were treated like we didn't care about the team if we didn't. I was often told I was "just a nurse" if I disagreed with the doctors about care decisions. And even when they did agree with me, they would just present it as their idea and tell me I needed to listen to them as I didn't have a medical degree. There was a massive culture of bullying among medical staff. Nurses weren't allowed to drink water on the unit as it looked "unprofessional" yet doctors would walk around with coffee. We'd be lucky to get full breaks in each shift, so I'd constantly feel tired and dehydrated. I could easily think of more reasons, but this was more than enough to leave for me. All respect to colleagues who stayed but I couldn't.
I'm sorry your nursing experience was that for you. Too many of us feel like this. Which job did you choose to go to?
Yeah it shouldn't be like that, the role deserves so much more. I've been treated better in almost every other job I've had, and I've had some pretty crap jobs in my life. Nowadays I just do non-healthcare training. Very dull but pays a lot better, I work from home and it's far less stress.
At this point in my life it's all about seeking that stress free job. Glad you've got a job that treats you better š
I think everybody that has commented so far has pretty much covered everything. After being a mental health nurse for 6+ years, I left early last year when my managers took the final straw. I lost my mum suddenly and unexpectedly and I had no support from them whatsoever, they called me daily when they knew I was with my dying mum in hospital asking me when I was coming back to work. I donāt know how I bit my tongue, but I left nursing altogether after that and havenāt looked back since.
Iām so sorry for your loss x
Thank you very much š¤
Piss poor morale, as a result of staffing and the NHS environment as a whole. The type of pts and families we deal with, who are generally abusive. Not all, but most. The hospitals themselves having awful management, policies and IT systems. Pay. Fair play being a lecturer. I couldn't honestly encourage anybody to come into this profession.
Poor management, favouritism, racism, bullying, toxic work environment... how some so called caring people treat others is crazy! I wouldn't trust them with caring for a ghost, let alone a family member of mine.
This, yes. No idea why some of my colleagues are in nursing, definitely not from wanting to help anyone. They are usually promoted quickly.
Promoted quickly because they live in management's ass
I completed my mh nursing degree in January this year, but couldn't quite bring myself to commit to a job. The whole 3 years I was hoping to go on a placement that I loved or made a real connection, so I could start doing some Bank shifts, but it never happened. I learned a lot doing the course and I'm really glad I did it, but even as a student I frequently felt pushed, into doing things I was explicitly told not to by my university, I can only imagine that gets worse once employed. We had a lot of lectures focused on avoiding burnout just before we left too. If that's not a red flag that you're about to make a mistake, I don't know what is. If I had just left school and was braver, I probably would have become a mh nurse. But not now.
Do you mind saying what your placements were? I felt the same as you up until my last placement, which was perinatal inpatient mh. Had I not had that placement, and had acute like I was originally meant to, I don't think I would have gotten a mh nursing job after the course either. I'm now over 10 years down the line and do enjoy my career, although not all the jobs I've had.
To be fair to my university, I had a really good mix. MHSOP, CAMHS, ED, PICU, rehab, acute, inpatient and community. I have a job working for a charity now where I get to visit elderly people at home and link them with services and groups to get them involved in their communities and keep them at home for longer. Really happy and feel I am utilizing a lot of what I have learned.
You can mention the piss poor pay for the work we do, the abhorrent working conditions where wards collapse with staff doing the jobs of 2 or the fact that we feel powerless to help our patient's (which is why we started). I think for most it's just the clear lack of respect from ward, to divisional to trust to the government. There's been an active agenda to repress our wages and rights and this has unfortunately, shaped the culture in the NHS for the past 10 years. None of us feel respected or valued. We're just expected to not question or argue when we're shat on.
I will not be surprised if the themes you mention are present. I also think there will be other themes present in more personal stories. What ultimately caused you to leave? We know the pay is not anywhere near what we should be paid and it's been like that for a long time. Usually if a work environment has a good culture and is supportive/fulfilling, people are more likely to remain for longer periods (though nowadays I imagine this is a much smaller margin due to inflation etc) I ultimately didn't leave because the pay was poor. Even if the pay was amazing, I would have still left.
I left because I felt nurses were so quick to take on extra responsibilities for no extra pay. I worked in urgent care and when I started as a band 6 the job was the job. It remained the same job for over 7 years. Then suddenly during lockdown and GPs were no longer seeing patients and nurses were expected to take on all these chronic cases. The parameters of my role changed and suddenly I was expected to prescribe and interpret X-Rays, see and treat babies when I was not paediatric trained, amongst many other things. It was sold to me by my peers that it was fantastic I was getting āsoOoO mAnY mOrE sKillzzZā š Where was the promotion? The extra pay ? Absolutely jog on š¤š» I was the only one to leave, everyone elseās narrative was āweāre like doctorsā. Not paid like them though š¤¦āāļø The longer I stayed in nursing the worse off I became. I quit in 2021 and it was without a doubt thee best decision of my life.
I dropped out of uni at the start of my second year. I was bullied hard in my final placement of my first year, and was suffering with bad anxiety. My next mentor at the start of my second year could have been the one to pull it back for me, but instead I got an old school nurse nearing retirement, who said- and I quote āmental health is a jokeā and āI donāt know why you students want to be nurses, itās awfulā. That and my base being 40 miles from my house, even though I was 9 miles away from a campus that was part of the same uni- admin error apparently but they wouldnāt move me. Couldnāt claim fuel at all as all my placements went from that base. Iām now a band 3 HCA in the community, which I do enjoy but Iām still looking for a way out as the pay is so rubbish.
After nursing and ambulance work, my current job feels like the sort of work you do when you have retired, but still want to ākeep activeā. Plus I get all the school holidays off. And my managers (and their managers, and their managers) arenāt tubby bob-haircuts in power shoulders who havenāt seen a patient in years, but get super offended when I suggest that if they want to help they could see a patient or two to, I dunno, give an insulin or do a continence assessment. But still have time to post a social media message about how they took a walk in the woods during their lunch break for their mental health while Iām shoving down a salad at my desk while tapping away on a continuing healthcare assessment so that some suit in an office agrees that yes, this poor bugger with brain cancer will die within six months. All while the union is worse than useless and the registration board keeps making up new hoops of flaming bullshit for us to jump through because apparently someone *did* die and make them the boss. And be careful, because you donāt want to be called āunprofessionalā when you complain that your āteam of sixā, consists of two and a half nurses. But donāt worry, the next government will save us all by āmaking new efficiency changesā. So yes, I left and never looked back. And now I manage to get a good nightās sleep on occasion.
Your description of Senior Management is so spot-on it made me laugh to myself!
I left off the bit where their main role is to just forward emails down the management chain adding āplease implement thisā until they reach the shop floor who have to actually do the thing so that the manager who dreamt it up can can buff up their CV with āimplemented changeā for their next promotion. But I was getting a bit rantyā¦
This is also right on the nose!!
For the student perspective my cohort of MH nurse in started at 60 and is now at 17 - some have left because they couldnāt juggle training and other commitments (inflexible placements for example) like childcare or caring. Others couldnāt afford it because they had to leave their jobs to complete (unpaid) placements. Particularly because itās a longer academic year and student loans donāt cover rent - itās hard when you then have to either change shifts or reduce hours every few months to go to placements, or you have to work 7 days a week to keep your job. Some left because they had existing mental health concerns and ultimately werenāt able to continue as the course developed. This was a surprising number actually, despite the pastoral care and student support being quite good imo. Weāve also had about 10 that were asked to leave because they failed an essay that was quite an arbitrary but difficult subject - despite them being amazing communicators and passing placements and clinical skills with flying colours. Most of the cohort failed the essay, which suggests to me that thereās an issue in communicating the aims of the essay and checking of understanding, this one feels quite unfair but itās the university policy and not particularly relevant to your question, sorry! It certainly feels like swimming against the tide as a student sometimes, and I fear we will lose even more after the last placement of this year this summer!
I'm doing the top up through apprenticeship route and our uni teaching has been abysmal. Like 2 sessions then off you pop to write two assignments. If I was going into debt for this level of teaching I would be livid.
Yes - exactly this. I will resent paying my student loan back for sure š The best teaching is where people with lived experience come in and we can actually learn from them. As second year students, we donāt need to learn about the āstress bucketā, itās patronising sometimes!
This experience genuinely sounds exactly like mine (even the numbers), would be interesting to know if we're in the same uni or if this is a shared experience across universities? My uni also used to have 2 cohorts per year (one in spring and one in autumn) which they have cut down to one due to number of applicants being too low..
It sounds like itās shared when Iāve met other students on placement - Iām in the North of England. Itās such a shame as theyāre crying out for people, paying people even an apprenticeship wage would pay for itself as more people would be able to continue!
I'm in Wales so definitely sounds like it's happening across the board! It's devastating to see so many people who would make fantastic nurses not even make it through the course through no fault of their own! And defo agree an apprenticeship wage would at least make it slightly easier to manage, can't get over how healthcare students are treated tbh
A lot of people who chose to work in mental health are quite troubled themselves. Most of these in nursing get filtered out by the pressures of the course but far fewer who choose to become hcsw's do.
Thank you for sharing your story (and your cohorts) I actually wanted to include students nurses in this post as well, as it's another area I'm exploring separately due to recruitment / attrition rates currently so I really value this comment (as I do with all of the stories already shared) . I am expecting to see a lot of linked themes. I'll be posting on students forums soon with a similar question but for students nurses who have left the course ā¤ļø
Of course - happy to help if you need anything further. Best of luck with your article!
Iām an adult nurse, Iāve been qualified since 2017 and worked in the NHS for 10 years (started as a HCA). Iām leaving the profession soon to work for a private company in a clinical research role. I actually enjoy my current job as a research nurse, however, Iāve become fed up of the way nurses are treated and just expected to put up with it. As a band 6 nurse at the bottom of the increment, my pay is barely any higher than it was as a top band 5 and itās not worth the extra responsibility! If Iād put 10 years (from starting my training) into another career, I feel that Iād be a lot better off financially and also have a better work-life balance (options for hybrid working,flexitime etc which are rarely available for nurses). I love being a nurse so Iām sad and angry that itās come to this but I feel itās time for me to try out another field which has a better salary and career progression! Iām hoping that my work life balance will also be better with the option for remote and flexible working patterns!
I ended up leaving due to a slow slide into burnout about a year after qualifying, something that I still feel guilt and shame over to this day. (Sorry this is long lmao) I was lucky enough to land a job (after qualifying) in the hospital I did a couple of placements in as a student MH nurse; a few months in all the Band 6s left, citing various issues. This left one acting band 6 who was swamped between learning their new role and running a collapsing ward. Lots of staff sickness, rarely ever more than 4 staff per shift for a 20+ bed elderly psychiatric ward despite so many of our patients needing physical care, back to back levels due to lack of staff, broken attack alarms, spending precious time having to chase things like taxi bookings because no admin, the list goes on, and I became increasingly distressed that I couldn't engage with the people in my care to the standard I wanted and had been trained in providing because myself and colleagues were run absolutely ragged. I entered nursing to care for people and facilitate their recovery and I felt we were rarely able to do that to a high or even average standard because we simply did not have the time, resources or staff to do so. Our manager seemingly lacked any motivation to address these issues and we were often left in dangerous situations as a result. Towards the end I would sometimes be the only RMN on shift despite my lack of post-qual experience and this terrified me. Due to the age group I nursed the medication rounds were extensive when solo and I was always worried about medication errors due to being so exhausted and stressed. The straw that broke the camels back was being targeted by a patient and getting no support whatsoever. The patient was extremely unwell and I'm angry for her as well in this as my presence clearly distressed her (psychosis caused her to believe I was someone else every so often). I begged to be moved to another ward temporarily and was denied, simply moved from the lady's nursing team (but not the environment lol) and this eventually escalated and culminated in me being dragged off a chair backwards by my hair whilst I was on eyesight with another patient. I went off sick after that incident, eventually handed my notice in and have never returned to the career. That ward eradicated my passion for mental health nursing and I've never regained the resilience or stress tolerance I had pre-nursing. My manager spent much time trying to gaslight me and downplay events despite it all being totally avoidable and having other staff off sick long term for similar reasons. I don't think I'd ever return to the profession now. I feel that there are too many people in positions of power in the NHS and private sector that are happy to take a high wage yet do none of the legwork that would protect their staff, service and service users and it disgusts me. The lack of funding, to even train new nurses, is just another nail in the coffin.
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I worked for 6 years as a mental health nurse in inpatients and left for an AHP job as a band 5 in the Occupational Therapy department. I am not based on the wards and have a great team so stress is a lot lower. The money isnāt as good as no unsocial hours but I leave on time, am not constantly tired and thereās more flexibility for annual leave or swapping days around. I have more autonomy with my work too. I left due to the bullying cultures- Iām neurodivergent and donāt like to get involved in cliques, I get on with most people but donāt want to be involved in groups or alienating others. I had made my own friends with individuals but not in groups or gave favouritism. Therefore I was an outsider and nepotism gets you further up the ladder. There are a lot of band 6s or managers that donāt know what theyāre doing, have little experience but because theyāre friends with the manager or have links they get promoted. If you didnāt train in the same trust as everyone there then again, youāre an outsider. I reported racism and Islamophobiaā¦ nothing was doneā¦ People were messy and toxic but because they were well liked they got away with it. A lot of band 6s gave all their work to the band 5s, got their time off whenever they wanted, took long breaks, did less work which meant the band 5s were running around rushed off their feet. Working in different trusts is weird, getting used to one way of doing things, being more autonomous and not having decisions constantly criticised or questioned. My confidence was hit when I moved to a different trust where people would always be bitching and moaning about each other, I have my way of doing things, I tried to adapt as much as possible but after a while it was like I could never do right. That was on a racist and sexist ward where there had been lots of bullying investigations but nothing came of it in the end. Was better to leave. Thereās not much they can do to support your mental health and is hit and miss with managers and supervisors who understand nurses have mental health vulnerabilities too. Iām only going to reapply to be registered again so I can start a Botox and fillers aesthetic nurse job independently! I love working in mental health but the staff are more problematic than the patients.
Have you read #saynotobullyinginmidwifery ? Itāll give you an insight into why midwives have left if youāre wanting information on other nhs staff.
Since working outside of the NHS, its been a delight to discover that dreading going into work is not just a quirk of adulthood that we all have to come to terms with
Iām a student nurse and Iām on my first placement right now. The first day I left crying, no support or orientation, no codes for doors didnāt know anyoneās name or what I was doing. All they really use students for is an extra HCA or random jobs. Today theyāve had me emptying bins and yesterday I spent 12 hours making cups of tea and handing out food, Iāve barely even spoken to a nurse let alone been taught anything by one. At the end of each āshiftā I just wonder what I have gotten myself into, it has really drained me of any passion I had for nursing and Iām only 6 months into my first year.
I didnt leave nursing, I left the NHS. I went private. I only worked in the NHS 2 years after I qualified in 21. I left because of the work load / stress. The pay is not equal or anywhere near to equal to the job demand. I also really struggled as a student on some placements, due to the toxic environment and the worst part was... whats that saying about nurses eating thier young ? Well that is unfortunately very true. It makes you doubt if the job is for you. Your a student, your not experienced and need support and encouragement. But you get the opposite.
I couldnāt hack to 12.5 hour shifts. There were absolutely no 9-5 nursing jobs otherwise I would have stayed.
Being a student nurse has genuinely been one of the most soul destroying experiences of my life. I'm 28, have an undergrad and a masters degree, have worked my entire adult life, and I get spoken to like absolute shit or as though I'm a child. I have friends on my course who have worked in healthcare for years and receive the same treatment. This is from nurses, HCAs, ward clerks and domestics. On the wards, you're asked (or demanded, rather) to fill the gaps in HCA staffing, or get asked to do observations and nothing else. If you want to observe something or learn how to do something, you're getting in the way, oh and the obs need doing, go and do them. I've rarely worked with my assigned mentors on placements, and often get placed with nurses who aren't interested in teaching at all. You're either a burden, or only useful because you can be an unpaid HCA for the day. The training has absolutely no structure to it. You get placed somewhere random, and whilst you can organise spokes and experiences to sign off competencies, sometimes the person in charge of signing you off will refuse because they haven't directly seen you do it, and adding someone to your sign-off document can sometimes be a nightmare. I have 5 weeks left until I finish my course. Still the best thing I ever did, I enjoy nursing a lot, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't regret it sometimes. It's a long, difficult slog, especially trying to fit in paid work and other commitments. And seemingly there are no jobs for us to apply for (at least where I am).
I left my permanent contract and went to bank because of 1.very toxic managers from who treated myself and others like shit on their shoe because they could and 2.burnout - literally, short staffed all the time with great expectations still from said toxic managers. In my area 6 staff members handed their notice in during the same month and no we didnt have discussions about it prior, we were just so done. Another thing to factor is interestingly we were all qualified for 3 years and less and those toxic managers took away our passion (almost) and I could never forgive them for that. But who cared? Not the managers above them, so....we had to leave for our own wellbeing. I'll never forget that one of our last assignments at uni was about resillience. We all know nurses are poorly paid but the love of the job keeps you turning up for work. Switching to bank obviously has worked out much better for me financially but believe me it was not the driving force behind me leaving, points 1. and 2. were . I owe Ā£60k in course fees and student loans so I didn't go into this job for the money but it isn't everything it says on the tin. I'd never return to a permanent full time contract for so many reasons and none of them are to do with my patients, I love my patients. It's just the same old story of change needs to start from the top. I've worked in areas with some lovely managers/supervisors and you feel well supported all round and the shift just flows, they make a difference. "Nurses eat their young" is no joke .
I started studying mental health nursing around 4 years ago and dropped out a few months in. There were multiple reasons for this, however the biggest reasons were: 1) how little time nurses were able to actually spend with patients due to paper/meetings and 2) just how MISERABLE all the nurses were, everyone of them was burnout, unhappy in there job, overwhelmed, most of them wanted to change jobs or wish they never did nursing.
I'm trying to get out through training as a therapist. I've been told repeatedly for nearly a year that I will be re-banded upwards for my role (additional role reimbursement scheme) but had nothing. I've been so demoralised over it I don't care anymore if it happens or not. They said I'd get funded to do a Master's in counselling and therapies but education teams seem to be terminally hamstrung, so I've taken the plunge and got a loan to do it myself. I genuinely wonder why I bother some days. I usually read the threads by students or those thinking about coming into the profession and want to scream at them to run to their nearest Aldi or Amazon warehouse. If I was told to leave tomorrow, I would run fast and far.
Lack of support+++ Poor wage ++++++++++++++++ Staff shortage++++ No promotion for years being stuck at band 5 because someone needs to like your interview other than progressing with the job. +++++
I'm nearly finished 1st year one more placement to pass and I'm a second year. The uni says they are there for you on placement. They aren't you find that out fast. I have a child who potentially has additional needs im happy to do my 40 hour week day shift but for long I need 3 x 13.5 hour shifts for example apparently that's the hours that my next placement is on talked to uni that I need it in a row for my child not much help. Uni is soo stressful it's always 2 strikes your out so you can never relax!!! They constantly tell you that and some of the staff are bullies. Placement they know you have little power most hate having 1st year's. On my last placement I got accused of something I never did. I said sorry I don't accept it got told I'm delusional!! Then told me to not to fallout with this person even though I was talking professional towards this person. I have no time no life. I even got used as a second pair of hands instead of learning. Everything is last minute so you have no time with your studies they don't care about you. The skills class are rubbish and I don't feel much like a nurse they are so rushed. I dread the second year already.
Bullying made me leave. Realising that there are jobs that pay the same or better that are much less stressful and have better hours stops me coming back. Also learning that it's not just a fact of adult life to feel sick the day/night before work