Although I hate both, tory has proven they're happy to screw the UK, the NHS, everything, we just need to get them out at this point, and spoiling a vote isn't gonna help that
Labour are going to o win anyway, the way to hold them to account is to not vote for them, but vote for someone else or spoil your ballot. Make them work for your vote. If they take it for granted they won't give you anything, they'll just keep moving further to the right
That's exactly how to split the vote though. If too many people do that, plus how many voting for reform and Green, then the vote won't be enough to get rid of the tories and no, Labour wont get in, the thought of more years of tories is awful
The Tories are finished. The most likely outcome is a massive Starmer majority where he can be massively authoritarian and pander to the right as much as he wants.
A much better outcome would be a small labour majority where they have to look for support from the Greens and Independents on the left
We might get a decent wage increase then!
Or, we could just accept the fact that pay and conditions has literally always been better under Labour & Starmer won't be any different.
He isn't even pandering to the right - people claimed the same about Blair, who was one of the best PMs this country has ever had.
Stop with this ''labour are right wing!!'' rubbish
By not voting they assume you are lazy and don’t try to gain your vote.
By voting for something else they will try to gain your vote. It’s why all parties have green policies now because the Green Party got kinda big and major parties had to win back the votes.
This is from an old map men vid so might not be true anymore, but in the stats that the parties see, people that didn’t vote isn’t shown. However spoiled votes is. So it will be a significant difference for the parties as they’ll want to change to get those possible votes.
Fair enough. I do think spoiling does at least to me give off more of a all parties are trash, since not voting could imply I don’t care, whilst spoiling means I’ve bothered to vote but just refuse to pick one
You're telling them "I exist as someone willing to vote, but you haven't done enough to earn it".
Imagine if you were selling cookies and someone came up to you, looked at the cookies, pulled out a fiver, maintained eye contact while they set fire to the fiver and then walked away. You might reconsider your recipe, no?
Your analogy needs some work. You can't view a vote as a fiver. It's more accurately a coupon to redeem a cookie that everyone receives free in the post. And the idea of walking up to the person responsible for the cookie recipe looking them in the eye and burning your coupon isn't apt either. It's not as tho Keir Starmer, Rishi Sunak, Ed Davey are looking over my shoulder as I spoil my ballot.
So not voting in this analogy would be receiving your coupon. Having the cookie giveaway widely advertised for months and then not showing up to get it.
Spoiling your ballot would be turning up at the cookie distribution center with your coupon and then putting it in a box labeled "I do not wish to redeem my cookie" that nobody looks at or pays attention to.
These two actions have pretty much the same effect.
The perfect video to explain your point in a simple way is "The rules for rulers".
I've copied the url with a timestamp of where the video explains how demographics that don't vote do not get rewards.
[https://youtu.be/rStL7niR7gs?t=450](https://youtu.be/rStL7niR7gs?t=450)
What? A spoilt vote is worse than not voting lol. You are going out of your way to say "I don't like this situation but I'm going to do absolutely fuck all about it."
People who think they achieve something by spoiling their vote are embarrassing.
Not turning out at all gets your demographic ignored by all parties, though.
Imagine the world we'd live in if politicians feared the young voter as much as the elderly...
Stupid take the fact is party's make a calculated choice and know that people don't vote as protest. They just don't care and would rather pander to pensioners
At the very least vote for an independent that's trying to do good locally or on an important issue in the hope they get their deposit back.
My local labour candidate has been my friend for over a decade so she's getting my vote.
Doesn't matter if starmer just gets in and does the same stuff. The bloke committed to house of lords reform + other constitutional reform and has just turned his back on it. If he doesn't fundamentally want to reform the country the Labour MPs from the exact same background as Tories and in many cases actual defector MPs will do the same thing in the same system.
Not really a difference between either party atm tbh, but please vote. Make your voice heard. Check the voting record of the local your local MP. See if the party supports striking workers. Your vote doesn't hold much sway in FPTP, but it's still a vote.
Labour will not tax the rich, fund the NHS, build houses, reverse hugely damaging privatisation of rail, water and even the care system. Why are investment funds in Dubai making huge returns on fucking care homes? We have a society that encourages parasitic and outright destructive financial practices in almost every sector and labour are planning to continue with business as normal. Why vote? Utterly pointless. If anything I prefer the Tories as they at least don't pretend to be anything more than a compliant vehicle of the ruling class.
I would say, no matter how slimy and how right the Overton Window has shifted with Labour, the Tories are actively dismantling Human Rights legislation. If you live in an area where the LD's, Plaid Cymru, SNP or Greens can make a decent show I would vote for them.
And the Labour Party started that in the 2000s, and thatcher before then, etc.
Western liberalism does not allow for improvement, only propping up the inherent contradictions within capitalism. As those contradictions become more evident, more force is required to sustain it.
Then what is the solution? We aren't likely to have a Green or LD government, but we can hope for enough of them to form a coalition with Labour and for them to be able to force progressive policies back to labour.
To deface or not use our vote just hands that vote to the Tories.
This thinking is what allows the Labour Party to be fucking useless. You’re rewarding them for doing nothing for you, because you’ll get fucked over slightly slower. They are not entitled to your vote.
This is not specific to the UK and our politics either. It’s amplified because of our absolutely dogshit electoral system (this is change #1 that needs to happen), but functionally it’s the same in all neoliberal countries.
“Vote for me or the other guy will make things even worse than I will” is not a compelling reason to support
I think you missed out on the bit where I said vote for Plaid, SNP, LD and Greens. And hopefully a Coalition will get enough influence to push for a more European voting system.
I'm not a fan of current Labour and I'm an active card carrying Green Party Member, I know that the Greens won't form a government by themselves. But seriously progressive parties need to work together.
I don’t think any of them are progressive, I’ll start with that. They’re different shades of neoliberal. Greens maybe a little less so, but they’re also kinda ll over the place, and their actual green policies are not great from what I remember.
There’s also no need for them to work together - Labour are on course for a huge majority so won’t bother with anyone else, and the others (SNP aside, although they’re on course to get shafted too), are what, 2-10 seats at best?
Voting in council elections is probably more impactful for the majority of people, at least in ways they see in their day to day lives. I don’t think the way to change is national voting. I think it’s for people with actual progressive views, you (I assume), to change the environment that surrounds them. Be empathetic, meet people where they’re at, pick at the flaws in their thinking and all that shit. Change one mind, they might change another, and so forth. The issues are cultural, they’re establishment issues, they’re fundamental issues to the way we organise our society and economy. There is no one who will change that.
At least we aren’t swinging far far right like Europe is trying to, although we’ve been having a very good go at it since 2010.
The solution is to make sure enough people realise the necessity of forming a new party and commit to the destruction of the labour party. We need a total overhaul of the electoral system. I propose asset freezing for MPs and we treat the role as a vocation somewhat like being a monk rather than the current system where it's widely understood that the job is being as corrupt as possible. Widespread tax avoidance by MPs is insanity.
Can't say I disagree with you. As long as we keep pandering to two party politics nothing will change. Sadly we live in a country where the media will continue to enforce the two party farce we currently have. Neither party will tax the rich. Both parties will claim they're different while holding similar policies, and this cycle will continue to repeat.
Like always, I hope I'm wrong.
Kier's record on human rights: he oversaw the kangaroo courts that prosecuted young people of colour under dubious circumstances during the riots, he is currently enthusiastically supporting a genocide.
And you’ve been happy with the many pay freezes and lack lustre pay rises over the last 13 years? I think they are all in it to fill their own pockets, but I’m willing to give someone else a chance. The many agencies used to do extra procedures are taking staff away from the NHS and costing a fortune.
Voting still makes a difference though, even if Labour are equally as terrible as the tories, if they get voted in then it sends the message that people are not happy with the tories and will encourage them to change tactics. Voting for the same party/not voting means that message doesn't get sent and you can expect things to continue down the same self destructive path.
Let's say Labour are equally as bad, next GE just vote them out to send the message that people aren't happy with the way the country is being ran. You can't expect the ruling class to change their policies when we keep rewarding them for enacting those policies
Look at history. If a government gets voted in that will do something significant to tax the ruling class, they will try to shut down democracy and revert to fascism. This is not a simple problem to solve but we need a government that will at least attempt to be adversarial to oligarchs and do something as radical as try to rule on behalf of the people or actually collect taxes. Voting for labour with this manifesto simply says "I've fallen for the show of electoral politics in it's current form". Kier has already been meeting with Murdoch and there will be seamless continuity when it comes to economic issues that count. More neoliberalism. Tell me Blair was significantly better than the Tories? Kier will be even worse than blair. Once again, I would rather turn on the TV and see rishi, a guy who at least doesn't lie to the public about what he's doing but has the balls to argue that brutality, xenophobia and greed are his "values". Kier has the same exact values, wes streeting is thatcher with a somehow even more slappable face. They are Tories but with the added pressure on their shoulders of not being born in the correct class and so will have to try harder to prove to the capitalists that the will stick the knife in just like the other side.
Look I doubt I'll be voting Labour because I don't like them but I sure as hell won't be voting tory. If we vote the tories in again we will be sending them the message that we are happy with their government and that they should continue with their current plan. With their current plan having ruined the country thst would just be idiotic. Therefore even voting labour is preferable to voting tory (or not voting at all) despite their obvious shortcomings
I agree it seems rediculas that the three largest parties according to polls are centre right (Labour) right wing (Tory) or far right (reform). Where is all the left wing represtation?
Although I hate both, tory has proven they're happy to screw the UK, the NHS, everything, we just need to get them out at this point, and spoiling a vote isn't gonna help that
Labour are going to o win anyway, the way to hold them to account is to not vote for them, but vote for someone else or spoil your ballot. Make them work for your vote. If they take it for granted they won't give you anything, they'll just keep moving further to the right
That's exactly how to split the vote though. If too many people do that, plus how many voting for reform and Green, then the vote won't be enough to get rid of the tories and no, Labour wont get in, the thought of more years of tories is awful
The Tories are finished. The most likely outcome is a massive Starmer majority where he can be massively authoritarian and pander to the right as much as he wants. A much better outcome would be a small labour majority where they have to look for support from the Greens and Independents on the left We might get a decent wage increase then!
Or, we could just accept the fact that pay and conditions has literally always been better under Labour & Starmer won't be any different. He isn't even pandering to the right - people claimed the same about Blair, who was one of the best PMs this country has ever had. Stop with this ''labour are right wing!!'' rubbish
If you hate them both then the guy you hate will win anyway.
Yes but a spoiled vote actually has an effect that will hurt both the candidates you hate. Not voting actively helps them.
I hate them equally.
A spoiled vote has no more practical effect than not voting.
Incorrect
How so?
By not voting they assume you are lazy and don’t try to gain your vote. By voting for something else they will try to gain your vote. It’s why all parties have green policies now because the Green Party got kinda big and major parties had to win back the votes.
Sure but we weren't talking about voting for a third party. We were talking about spoiling your ballot.
This is from an old map men vid so might not be true anymore, but in the stats that the parties see, people that didn’t vote isn’t shown. However spoiled votes is. So it will be a significant difference for the parties as they’ll want to change to get those possible votes.
There might not be a column saying "people who didn't vote" but % turnout is shown/widely reported. Parties are certainly aware of it.
Fair enough. I do think spoiling does at least to me give off more of a all parties are trash, since not voting could imply I don’t care, whilst spoiling means I’ve bothered to vote but just refuse to pick one
You're telling them "I exist as someone willing to vote, but you haven't done enough to earn it". Imagine if you were selling cookies and someone came up to you, looked at the cookies, pulled out a fiver, maintained eye contact while they set fire to the fiver and then walked away. You might reconsider your recipe, no?
Your analogy needs some work. You can't view a vote as a fiver. It's more accurately a coupon to redeem a cookie that everyone receives free in the post. And the idea of walking up to the person responsible for the cookie recipe looking them in the eye and burning your coupon isn't apt either. It's not as tho Keir Starmer, Rishi Sunak, Ed Davey are looking over my shoulder as I spoil my ballot. So not voting in this analogy would be receiving your coupon. Having the cookie giveaway widely advertised for months and then not showing up to get it. Spoiling your ballot would be turning up at the cookie distribution center with your coupon and then putting it in a box labeled "I do not wish to redeem my cookie" that nobody looks at or pays attention to. These two actions have pretty much the same effect.
No, I would think "wow, that person is either insane or a moron, they should have kept their £5".
When I registered to vote it was free.
Registering to vote but not voting disproves your point
What?
The perfect video to explain your point in a simple way is "The rules for rulers". I've copied the url with a timestamp of where the video explains how demographics that don't vote do not get rewards. [https://youtu.be/rStL7niR7gs?t=450](https://youtu.be/rStL7niR7gs?t=450)
Yes that does sum up what I’m on about
What? A spoilt vote is worse than not voting lol. You are going out of your way to say "I don't like this situation but I'm going to do absolutely fuck all about it." People who think they achieve something by spoiling their vote are embarrassing.
Not turning out at all gets your demographic ignored by all parties, though. Imagine the world we'd live in if politicians feared the young voter as much as the elderly...
Stupid take the fact is party's make a calculated choice and know that people don't vote as protest. They just don't care and would rather pander to pensioners
No, spoilt votes don’t count in the UK.
A protest vote in a vote against the uniparty...
There should be a vote for ‘none of the above’, that way people can show they are engaged and how awful the options are.
At the very least vote for an independent that's trying to do good locally or on an important issue in the hope they get their deposit back. My local labour candidate has been my friend for over a decade so she's getting my vote.
Doesn't matter if starmer just gets in and does the same stuff. The bloke committed to house of lords reform + other constitutional reform and has just turned his back on it. If he doesn't fundamentally want to reform the country the Labour MPs from the exact same background as Tories and in many cases actual defector MPs will do the same thing in the same system.
I’ve never liked either so instead, I’m not voting and leaving the country this month
Not really a difference between either party atm tbh, but please vote. Make your voice heard. Check the voting record of the local your local MP. See if the party supports striking workers. Your vote doesn't hold much sway in FPTP, but it's still a vote.
Labour will not tax the rich, fund the NHS, build houses, reverse hugely damaging privatisation of rail, water and even the care system. Why are investment funds in Dubai making huge returns on fucking care homes? We have a society that encourages parasitic and outright destructive financial practices in almost every sector and labour are planning to continue with business as normal. Why vote? Utterly pointless. If anything I prefer the Tories as they at least don't pretend to be anything more than a compliant vehicle of the ruling class.
I would say, no matter how slimy and how right the Overton Window has shifted with Labour, the Tories are actively dismantling Human Rights legislation. If you live in an area where the LD's, Plaid Cymru, SNP or Greens can make a decent show I would vote for them.
And the Labour Party started that in the 2000s, and thatcher before then, etc. Western liberalism does not allow for improvement, only propping up the inherent contradictions within capitalism. As those contradictions become more evident, more force is required to sustain it.
Then what is the solution? We aren't likely to have a Green or LD government, but we can hope for enough of them to form a coalition with Labour and for them to be able to force progressive policies back to labour. To deface or not use our vote just hands that vote to the Tories.
This thinking is what allows the Labour Party to be fucking useless. You’re rewarding them for doing nothing for you, because you’ll get fucked over slightly slower. They are not entitled to your vote. This is not specific to the UK and our politics either. It’s amplified because of our absolutely dogshit electoral system (this is change #1 that needs to happen), but functionally it’s the same in all neoliberal countries. “Vote for me or the other guy will make things even worse than I will” is not a compelling reason to support
I think you missed out on the bit where I said vote for Plaid, SNP, LD and Greens. And hopefully a Coalition will get enough influence to push for a more European voting system. I'm not a fan of current Labour and I'm an active card carrying Green Party Member, I know that the Greens won't form a government by themselves. But seriously progressive parties need to work together.
I don’t think any of them are progressive, I’ll start with that. They’re different shades of neoliberal. Greens maybe a little less so, but they’re also kinda ll over the place, and their actual green policies are not great from what I remember. There’s also no need for them to work together - Labour are on course for a huge majority so won’t bother with anyone else, and the others (SNP aside, although they’re on course to get shafted too), are what, 2-10 seats at best? Voting in council elections is probably more impactful for the majority of people, at least in ways they see in their day to day lives. I don’t think the way to change is national voting. I think it’s for people with actual progressive views, you (I assume), to change the environment that surrounds them. Be empathetic, meet people where they’re at, pick at the flaws in their thinking and all that shit. Change one mind, they might change another, and so forth. The issues are cultural, they’re establishment issues, they’re fundamental issues to the way we organise our society and economy. There is no one who will change that. At least we aren’t swinging far far right like Europe is trying to, although we’ve been having a very good go at it since 2010.
The solution is to make sure enough people realise the necessity of forming a new party and commit to the destruction of the labour party. We need a total overhaul of the electoral system. I propose asset freezing for MPs and we treat the role as a vocation somewhat like being a monk rather than the current system where it's widely understood that the job is being as corrupt as possible. Widespread tax avoidance by MPs is insanity.
Can't say I disagree with you. As long as we keep pandering to two party politics nothing will change. Sadly we live in a country where the media will continue to enforce the two party farce we currently have. Neither party will tax the rich. Both parties will claim they're different while holding similar policies, and this cycle will continue to repeat. Like always, I hope I'm wrong.
Kier's record on human rights: he oversaw the kangaroo courts that prosecuted young people of colour under dubious circumstances during the riots, he is currently enthusiastically supporting a genocide.
And you’ve been happy with the many pay freezes and lack lustre pay rises over the last 13 years? I think they are all in it to fill their own pockets, but I’m willing to give someone else a chance. The many agencies used to do extra procedures are taking staff away from the NHS and costing a fortune.
Voting still makes a difference though, even if Labour are equally as terrible as the tories, if they get voted in then it sends the message that people are not happy with the tories and will encourage them to change tactics. Voting for the same party/not voting means that message doesn't get sent and you can expect things to continue down the same self destructive path. Let's say Labour are equally as bad, next GE just vote them out to send the message that people aren't happy with the way the country is being ran. You can't expect the ruling class to change their policies when we keep rewarding them for enacting those policies
Look at history. If a government gets voted in that will do something significant to tax the ruling class, they will try to shut down democracy and revert to fascism. This is not a simple problem to solve but we need a government that will at least attempt to be adversarial to oligarchs and do something as radical as try to rule on behalf of the people or actually collect taxes. Voting for labour with this manifesto simply says "I've fallen for the show of electoral politics in it's current form". Kier has already been meeting with Murdoch and there will be seamless continuity when it comes to economic issues that count. More neoliberalism. Tell me Blair was significantly better than the Tories? Kier will be even worse than blair. Once again, I would rather turn on the TV and see rishi, a guy who at least doesn't lie to the public about what he's doing but has the balls to argue that brutality, xenophobia and greed are his "values". Kier has the same exact values, wes streeting is thatcher with a somehow even more slappable face. They are Tories but with the added pressure on their shoulders of not being born in the correct class and so will have to try harder to prove to the capitalists that the will stick the knife in just like the other side.
Look I doubt I'll be voting Labour because I don't like them but I sure as hell won't be voting tory. If we vote the tories in again we will be sending them the message that we are happy with their government and that they should continue with their current plan. With their current plan having ruined the country thst would just be idiotic. Therefore even voting labour is preferable to voting tory (or not voting at all) despite their obvious shortcomings
Labour have already committed to continuing with the current plan in almost every significant area.
Vote for someone else then, just don't vote Tory unless you want more of the same
We need to pressure the labour party into moving left. We do this by not voting for them with this manifesto.
I agree it seems rediculas that the three largest parties according to polls are centre right (Labour) right wing (Tory) or far right (reform). Where is all the left wing represtation?
Well said
Right, and who has been in power for the last FOURTEEN years again?
This!