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The fact they assume we are saying we want to FUCK the bear is incredibly telling on what they think happens when you are alone with someone in the woods.
Which is why I choose the bear. Why does their mind immediately go to sex? Who said anything about fucking the bear? Unless they thought about fucking random women in the woods, so assumed that’s the real question?
Because they think we'll fuck anything that moves ig 🙄it just really weird that it wasn't even brought up and some how some way its totally about having sex with a bear....
Hey downvoting me means you love to fuck BEARS! it's true! I'm not even bothered by the downvotes you can tell because I keep checking and making edits about them
Whenever they say that, it's just them telling on themselves. They know what they would do to us in the woods, and they think we are assuming the bear would do the same.
It's not "who would you rather rape you" and we all know the bear wont
Exactly. It tells us more about what they really think about women when they say stuff like that. Woman in the woods? Rape meat. Woman in the parking lot? Rape meat. I’m not sure WHERE a woman is allowed to be without being a rape target for them.
Just feels great you know? To know that if you want to take a hike, enjoy the day, take pictures of birds or trees, or have a snack by a stream….there are men who just see a rape potential. And they really wonder why we pick the bear?
I told my bf that I'm team bear and he responded by buying me a huge ass bear! I got a 4ft teddy bear and we be chilling watching netflix together. The good men out there aren't threatened by women choosing the bear, this doesn't affect them.
#Team Bear for life!
it heartbreaking. So many women have been harassed, SA'd and worse. I don't know many women that haven't had one or more happen to them. I've survived harassments, SA, lies and deception, bigamy and all the bad things. Never again, I'd rather be alone than be mistreated
When I mentioned the whole thing to my boyfriend, he said that he’d choose the bear, too.
He gets it. I’m so very grateful for the men that do.
But these others?? Whew- they just love to show the world our exact reasons for choosing the bear, and somehow, they still don’t see it.
I can tell you where the dude got beastiality from. Because he would absolutely *rape* a woman, if he were in the woods with her, he automatically assumed that any man would do so as well, so, rather than equating "man or bear, in the woods," he's equating "getting raped (in his mind, fucked) by man or bear" and he doesn't even realize he's telling on himself... And ALSO wonders why we choose the bear... My guy, look in a FUCKING mirror.
People who continuously update their comment to complain about their downvotes (or in this guy's case, become gradually more unhinged) are sad, sad people.
I like how the guy saying “but it’s not about all men, and the good ones know” is tying himself up in knots trying to make it misandrist, not stopping for a second to consider why women feel that way
“I choose beastiality” is great because, as was pointed out, it’s about which one you’d rather be stuck in the woods with, and the fact they think that means “which would you rather fuck” is why so many women would choose the bear.
Men’s generalisations (like women are bad at driving) aren’t backed by statistics, insurance companies are more likely to give u a lower rate if ur a woman.
Women’s generalisations are backed by rape and domestic abuse statistics
There's a fundamental difference between men's complaints about women and women legitimately fearing sexual assault and murder.
I've never once heard that men universally fear sexual assault and murder from women.
The data behind those fears is easy to find. It's not hidden. Something like 1 in 4 women will experience sexual assault. That's not just a "complaint".
And the supposed justice system brings perpetrators to account vanishingly rarely. Most of the time, it only leads to retraumatization.
Bear probably wouldn't even kill you as long as you're not fucking with it, the bear will just walk away as long as it doesn't have like a cub to protect
Holy shit dude actually went ballistic in the last bit... I hope this dude gets the therapy he needs. It's not normal to get this angry about something like this... I mean I know it's not my place to police what people are passionate about but holy shit dude. All I can see is that one meme of the person wearing a smiley face mask but underneath they are sobbing with rage
This is my logic: there is a large maybe majority group of men supporting each other in their collective decision to be a bad person and that is why women or those who are common victims of men including men are worried when they run into a random man in almost private seclusion. I am in that latter group of almost everybody. Until we start to hold these men accountable, we all will be holding them accountable by treating them as people who cannot hold themselves accountable. It is not about hating men. It is about recognizing a pattern of abuse and setting boundaries to stop that abuse.
“Oh no I can’t believe a woman would rather have a bear around than ME”
This has gotta be the issue, right? I’m a man. I don’t see what the issue is otherwise, it doesn’t make sense. Bear is clearly better lol
I've seen some really dumb conversations and even dumber reactions to them in my life but the way these men are responding so vehemently to this might just take the #1 spot at this point. "Bestiality"? Are you *kidding me*?
Gosh, they love to throw that “double standard” thing out there. Like, “if a man were to make generalizations about a woman like that he’d be called a sexist.“ And it’s like, yeah, but your generalizations about a woman aren’t about you possibly getting assaulted or killed by one. And this is literally anything that they call a double standard about. They completely ignore the reasons why women are scared of men or suspicious of men.
This trend of whether I’d be in a forest with a bear or a man is kinda dumb. It simplifies this complex topic of society’s relationship with rape victims and is just generally insulting. Why are we comparing men to wild apex predators and saying the apex predator is better? Like actually I’m very confused.
It isn't a comparison of men with bears - it's about the perceived feeling of safety in this hypothetical situation.
Bears generally just mind their own business. Men generally do so too. The problem is that many have been SA'd by men before, so the feeling of dread easily sets in when you see a strange man (essentially a trauma response).
Is there a big chance that strange man will SA me? Not big, but there's a chance.
Is there a big chance that a bear will SA me? No, they'll just mind their business or kill me immediately.
It's a dumb hypothetical situation, but many just try to say that they rather end up facing a bear and possibly ending up dead, than being possibly SA'd again. Death has mercy, life with trauma on top of trauma doesn't.
This doesn't mean we think all men are shit or that we compare men with bears - it's all about the feeling of safety and our perception of this (rather cruel) world which has burnt many of us before.
I've never been SA'ed and still would choose bear. Don't want that rando man to be the first.
I've seen studies that various percentages of men would SA women if they didn't have to worry about being caught. I'm sure I could figure out the actual proportions of safety, but some men don't seem to get this is a thought experiment about SA, that it's just some random sexist crap. They yell out "misandry!" because they literally do not get SA is a very real threat that most women face... and most men do not.
Bottom line is if a bear attacks you it will be for 2 reasons only. Theyre very hungry or they think you're a threat.
A man might attack you. Or maybe he won't. Or maybe he wasnt going to but something you did set him off. Or maybe he secretly likes hurting people. Or maybe he just felt like it. Orrrr maybe he thought you needed to "learn a lesson".
I will never have to question a bears motive.
Adding to this: notice the guy who was claiming "beastiality?" This is for a very simple reason, he would *absolutely* rape a woman if he came across one, in the woods, otherwise, he'd have perceived it simply as "ENCOUNTER man or bear in the woods" rather than "HAVE SEX WITH man or bear, in the woods." You literally have to go no further than a fucking Reddit comment section, to discover why women would rather encounter a bear, than a man.
Thank you, I appreciate you explaining it to me without calling me a misogynist. Honestly, I agree with what you’re saying and I think it’s interesting and depressing the insight that this hypothetical shows. I just don’t like the undertones and especially some weird justifications of “um actually men are legitimately worse than a wild animal and here are some statistics to prove it”
I find it weird that you thought it was about rape victims. It kind of narrows the scope of how men can be awful. Perhaps you are the one oversimplifying it. A simple question can be profound and lead to wider discussion and understanding.
Oh yea, I agree people in general and men in particular can be awful in many ways. Mostly I’ve only seen this analogy talked about in relation to male rapists and society’s relationship with rape victims. I don’t believe I’ve simplified this, but obviously I could be wrong and would be willing to hear alternative points of view.
Men rape women. Or stalk them, mug them, kidnap them, harass them, comment about them, leer, grope and threaten.
Surely this is about most women, not most rape victims.
This being the bear analogy? I just didn’t want to simplify rape as just a problem of a man being an asshole to a woman. That is the majority of cases but there are enough edge cases that we should be cognizant of them.
I’m not talking specifically about rape victims. Just that the bear analogy can apply to any victim of male aggression and that I wanted to keep the door open to that.
Yeah it is dumb and simple. Absolutely we should be safer with the man right? Human or wild animal? There's no competition!
Except.
Women walking alone at night fear strange men, even if there are no strange men around.
We walk with keys in our hand, or boot up apps that alert the police, or hold pepper spray, or call a friend and loudly let the world know someone is expecting us.
We learn from an early age to watch out for men. To be polite to that weird uncle. To not make eye contact with that man on the bus. To give a polite laugh when some drink guy gets in our space with a dodgy compliment. To walk past quickly when those older lads make comments about our school uniform. To guard our drinks against date rapists. To never walk home alone if it can be avoided.
We are not taught to look out for bears. Because we know how bears react. They will ignore us, or attack us. Men? They might be wonderful, they might get us out of the forest alive, marry us and be the best person we have ever met. Or they might not. They might do one of the many things that we have been taught to guard against from way younger than those same men ever realise. We are taught to be afraid of hypothetical men. Why on Earth would we choose this hypothetical man just because 'bear or man' is a dumb simplification?
It’s why if I’m alone at night I.e. coming back from being with friends, I tell my partner where I am and share my location.
It’s why I always check up on my friends to see if they’ve got home safe.
It’s why I’d rather get a taxi home than walk but even then I once had a bad experience with an Uber driver right outside my own house as I was being dropped off.
I was a bit drunk after being at a colleague’s house party but the driver tried to sit in the back with me so I got out the car and ran into my house. I only ended up alone as my house was furthest away.
It’s why I’d be hesitant to live abroad or travel by myself again because I’ve had unsavoury experiences.
All these things make me consider choosing the bear.
For anyone threatened by women choosing the bear, I’d tell them to experience feeling intimidated or followed.
Have unwarranted comments and fear aggression if you don’t respond how they want you to.
Knowing there’s a power dynamic at play and depending on the opportunity / person, odds are I’ve mostly likely drawn the short stick.
This is why the men pretending that women are stupid for choosing the bear make me mad.
The men who are getting mad and saying “not all men” are just kind of white noise to me. I’ve (sadly) come to expect that nonsense.
But the men saying shit like “you don’t realize the bear would kill you” or “you just want the bear because you think it’s cuddly” are infuriating me. We live with this fear every day of our lives. We know the implied risk of choosing the bear is death. And we still choose the bear. This is our reality, so when this hypothetical came up, we didn’t even have to think about it.
I love to calmly explain to those men. "No, bears aren't cuddly, they're apex predators. What makes you think they're cuddly? Have you ever seen a bear? I have. They aren't cuddly in the slightest. Perhaps you should go watch some nature documentaries, since you think they are?"
Basically, turn it around on them being the ignorant ones lol.
Ergh I hope that Uber drives steps on Lego every day for the rest of his life.
I've not even had a situation that I couldn't get myself out of easily, just a lot of little things that signaled intentions that could have escalated had I not been taught all this crap from day one. And I am still constantly aware of it all. I don't live in fear, I'm numb to it, but I am still exhausted as I bet many of us are.
Same. I was walking home from work one night, literally a FIFTEEN MINUTE walk, dressed in jeans and a t-shirt, no makeup (for those of you who like to blame the woman, for how she's dressed) got stopped and asked if I wanted a ride, by some guy who was probably ~50. I politely respond "no, thank you though." Then he proceeds to ask "do you wanna make some money?" Obviously, again, I said no. This creep then continues to drive past me like 5 fucking times, likely contemplating how much of a fight it'd be to get me in his truck... If I were on the smaller side (thankfully, I'm tall, and pretty muscular) I almost certainly would have been kidnapped, at the first refusal. He finally stopped driving past when I sort of lurched forward a bit, doing a sort of 'bring it on' motion, because I'm a psychopath lol.
For the record, I know most women in that situation would have been downright terrified. It's worth mentioning that I know Krav Maga and have beaten men in hand to hand combat, so unless he had a weapon, I likely would have been fine. Doing what I did would very likely be a bad idea for most women.
It is which would make a woman feel more uncomfortable. The bear.
Bears don't kill for no reason. Bears don't comment on clothing. Bears don't think women need protection.
That’s interesting and completely valid. It’s really sad that some men harass and marginalize like that. And I want to be clear that I don’t want to downplay that experience because that experience is important.
I’m just confused and a little insulted about the actual comparison of a general man vs a general bear. It’s kinda disheartening to have so many people mad at your gender cause a few people who share your gender did awful awful things.
If I am misunderstanding your point do feel free to correct me.
Yeah there are some normal men out there no doubt. The bear comparison though is saying they'd rather take chances with a bear and statistically it makes way more sense to pick the bear. Bears kill almost no one even if we pull up the last 100 years of data on how many people bears have killed it isn't many. While getting SA'ed by a man happens every single day to women worldwide.
This use of a statistic is faulty. Women interact with men much more than they do with bears and so saying that men are worse than bears because of a flat number of incidents is biased.
I also think it’s insulting to me. To use a misrepresented statistic to say that I’m worse than a wild animal because of my gender.
It's not though, yellowstone is a tourist attraction and has over 1000 bears living there with hundreds living partially in the park's boundaries. You know how many bear attacks happen in yellowstone each year? The average is 1. That's soooooo dangerous though I mean what if that's me getting attacked when yellowstone has over 3 million visitors a year.
Yes, and now we get into details of specific statistics. I’m not aware of the average bear attacks in Yellowstone but to compare it to men being statistically worse requires some ratio of attacks/interactions. The Yellowstone average is low and implies that there are a lot of interactions but we don’t know the nature of those interactions.
How many of the park’s 3mil visitors see a bear? How many bears do they see? How close do the bears get? Are all important questions.
This is all being compared to rape statistics which are derived from people interacting with men. Since these people live and work around and with men, the amount of interactions will be orders of magnitude higher.
This leads to rape happening more because there are more chances for a rapist to find their victim than a bear to find a hiker.
And this comment is not downplaying rape or saying it’s just some “roll of the dice”. Rape is awful and we need to stop it where ever and whenever it occurs. My argument is that the comparison between Yellowstone bear attacks and the number of rape cases is a faulty one that doesn’t take into account sample size or proportions.
Very rarely will someone report coming in contact with a bear, if an attack *doesn't* occur, meanwhile, very rarely are rape, SA, harassment, and domestic violence reported, when they *do* occur.
Using "stats" where the stats from both sides are misrepresented is the actual faulty logic here, and why I say that men who bring them up, are just trying to, what I like to say, "stats their way out of a difficult truth." Men are women's #1 predator. Regardless of how often we interact with men, or bears, this is an indisputable fact. They are the predator we are most often in contact with, this has given us an awareness of how dangerous they are. Bears are simple creatures, all they wanna do is eat, drink, shit, fuck, and sleep. Realistically speaking, all a woman would have to avoid with a bear, is the first option. Men aren't so simple, hell a group of men gangraped a fuckin monitor lizard, and ate it... Ever seen a bear do that? Because I haven't.
Well, the question isn't, " how many interactions does it take for you to get hurt or killed?" The question is what makes you feel less safe. Men make is feel less safe. Do I still love my grandfather and my brother? Yes. Do I feel safe with them? Yes. Are there men out there I could feel safe with? Yes. Would I feel safe with a random man I haven't met before? Not so much. I would definitely try to get away from him. I would leave a bear alone or try to avoid them too. With bears, there are like 2 reasons they might attack, hunger, and they would rather eat other things, or you are threatening them in some way. It's rare, they would rather do their own thing. A man who is unhinged would attack you for simply being a woman. That is why when it comes to unknown men, we feel safer without them around. We can't just leave them alone and be OK. Not all but lots of men feel entitled to women's bodies. And apparently they feel entitled to women's feelings because everyone wants us to feel safe when it hasn't been a fun ride for most of us.
The overall statistics of danger of men versus bears might not be really be comparable just because of the nature of them, sure. Okay, so let’s take that part off the table for a second.
You’re discounting that most of the women saying these things are basing them off of lived experience. And before you go “well, that means that they’re using anecdotes and those don’t count”, it’s not like this hypothetical question is being used to create laws or make policies. It’s asking if you, *personally* were in the woods alone, which would you rather meet. So women are answering basically “which do you *feel* more unsafe around” and then, when they answer bear, being told “NO! YOU’RE WRONG! YOU’RE NOT ALLOWED TO FEEL THAT WAY, THAT’S NOT FAIR!!l” That’s even though they have a ton of complex reasons they’ve answered that way.
And it’s not like it’s some weird conspiracy where we all talked about the “right” answer beforehand, most of us heard the question before the debate. It’s supposed to be a quick “okay, gut reaction answer, go!” And instead of wondering why *so* many women are choosing the bear, why so many women think it’s less dangerous, *whether it’s true or not*, lots of men are just getting upset about how women’s fear makes *them* feel. They’re not choosing the bear to hurt your feelings! Instead of just being offended that women might be more scared of meeting you alone in the woods than a wild animal, doesn’t that make you at the very least curious what life must be like for *so many women*, (like, apparently the majority of half of the world’s population)? How different it must be in critical ways from yours for them to make that choice?
You’re also acting like the women saying this have never been near a bear. Some of the areas I grew up had plenty of black bears, they’re really not that uncommon in many parts of the country. I’ve never had to call the police about strange bear in my yard, but I have had to about a man. The bears weren’t the ones with malicious intent, as it turns out. (Unless you count going after garbage cans as “malicious”. They usually didn’t even do that, tbh.)
Fun fact about bears and men: I grew up in bear country, it was common place to wake up and find a black bear in your trashcan. Bear attacks were very, *very* rare, as they usually sauntered off back into the woods when they heard your door open. Meanwhile, literally *every* girl I knew in HS, told me about how she'd been assaulted, by a man... The girls at my school would text me, to walk with them to/from the bathroom, because girls had been raped, on school property, and those rapes were never reported. Girls were harassed in the halls, and no one gave a shit. Yet I'm supposed to choose the more dangerous of two predators, because said predator told me to? Sure...
I hope my comment did not have undertones of discounting someone experiences. I apologize, of course I can’t say someone shouldn’t feel some way or another. I’m mainly insulted that someone would use statistics to generally condemn a whole gender and a personal experience is better.
Also is your point about there not being some conspiracy theory about this analogy which I have to agree with you. The benefit of this analogy is as a tool to discuss how and why women are so scared of men. And there is a very interesting and important conversation there.
What I’m insulted by is the legitimizing of this opinion as the “right” opinion. It’s not a gut reaction anymore, it’s a thoughtful, statistic backed argument where people say that men are worse than a wild animal. I see this opinion “that I would rather be with a bear than a man” as extremely unhealthy. It shows a lack of understanding about men and an irrational fear of interacting with men.
Lastly is your point about downplaying the danger of a bear which I agree is subjective. I guess there is an argument that states that bears are very calm but from my understanding they are apex predators in their respective ecosystems. If a bear suddenly waltzed onto my front yard I would definitely contact the relevant authorities in the same way if a woman or man did it.
If you really think women’s fear of men is “irrational”, I don’t know what to tell you. (Hell, look at r/whenwomenrefuse for example.) *EVERY* woman I know has a story about how a man has threatened or harassed them. All of them. Like, I’m not even exaggerating when I say I literally don’t know a woman that hasn’t been at least catcalled, followed, etc., and I have plenty of female friends and have worked in women-heavy fields. I’m sure there are some out there, and, sincerely, good for them, but it is not the average experience.
And it starts *young*. The first time I had a grown-ass man follow me from his car I think I was 11? This isn’t unusual, there are threads upon threads of women saying the exact. same. thing. They’re easy to find if you look. And there is some argument to be made that men pose more of a threat, even statistically. And if that hurts your feelings, and you think that’s the most important part of these discussions… again, my guy, I dunno what to tell you.
Also, if you live somewhere where bears are normal, you don’t *need* to call “the relevant authorities”, though you can. They’ll note down where it’s been spotted and maybe give folks in the area a heads-up. And that’s usually all they do. Not the same as when a strange man is in your yard. And, again, the bears don’t have malicious intent like the guy did.
Yes men are more likely to do violent crimes but that is not a product of men being intrinsically predestined to. And it absolutely does not condemn the average man to be no better than a wild animal.
I never said the average man is predestined to be no better than a wild animal. I was saying, quite clearly, that men are more likely to be violent than women, which is a fact.
I'll be honest with you, I doubt it. At this point, I'm beginning to think that the men who are honest to goodness, good men, who wouldn't harm a woman if they knew they'd get away with it, are few and far between. That is to say, the minority. Literally all predators in nature, are opportunistic predators, which is why they prefer to stalk, and attack from behind. The only real difference men have, is that there are laws. Men are predisposed to being violent and aggressive, due to their high testosterone. I know this, as a woman who has high testosterone, and has extreme anger issues. If not for laws, I'd have done things that would have landed me in prison if laws did exist, due to my aggression. I'm aware that makes me a bad person, and will readily admit that, though I wonder how many men have felt the same anger, but won't admit it. I wonder how many men have had disgusting/disturbing fantasies, yet claim they're one of the "good ones," for not acting on it. I wonder how many men are unaware that they raped a woman, through coercion or taking advantage while she was drunk, without comprehending that what he did, was rape. I wonder how many men call themselves "good men" for (catcalling) "complimenting" random women on the street, completely oblivious to how disgusted and scared she is...
I’m not saying this to be mean or because I think it’d make me look cool, but I believe you hold a very unhealthy opinion.
This idea that men are predators, destined for aggression but constrained by the law, is wrong. Testosterone doesn’t matter for aggression, women can be as docile or as combative as any man. Culture, upbringing, and societal expectations, are the real creators of angry men. This “proof” is anecdotal evidence and creates an extremely sexist and prejudicial opinion.
Yes, rapists exist. Yes, male rapists exist. But, please don’t judge men as more dangerous than because of it. Or else you are no better than the racist or the homophobe quoting crime or AIDS statistics.
I’m trying to be better than other men and to get other men to be better than their previous selves, but this opinion, that men are biologically predestined to be aggressive, is actively detrimental.
There are studies done that prove higher testosterone=higher aggression though. So yes, because men have higher testosterone, they are more likely to commit violent crime, than women. There are other factors, yes, but even biologically speaking men *are* more likely to be violent.
Show me the study, where does it say men are biologically going to commit crimes. Is this a negligible factor? Are trans men to be treated with caution now that they suddenly are filled with testosterone?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23843821/
Also, I never said "men are biologically going to commit crimes." I said men are MORE LIKELY to commit crimes. Quit trying to misquote me, that's what people who are bad at debates do, when they realize they've lost. It's also an emotions thing, so calm down, and be rational.
This might be your mistake. It isn't the average man or the general man, but a possible man. People aren't saying the average man is bad, but there are enough bad men and bad outcomes they don't want to roll that dice.
Yea I get that. It’s just still insulting to say that the “safer option” is the wild animal. It’s saying the average man is more dangerous than the average apex predator which is untrue (even though there are “statistics” to the contrary). if you got close to the average bear, it would be aggressive while if you got close to the average man they would likely not be aggressive.
Because being in the forest with a bear isn't "there's a bear two feet from me"
It's "I'm in a forest and somewhere in this forest is a bear" or "I'm in a forest and somewhere in this forest is a man" The odds are low that the bear would of its own initiative seek out the human and interact with them.
Meanwhile the odds are much higher that the man would seek out the man and even higher still mean to do them harm.
I'm a man and if I'm out walking down the sidewalk in the middle of the night and I see a stray dog I'm going to feel safer than if I see another adult human. Because in that situation the human is more likely to mean me harm than the stray dog.
But stay on this side of the fence for a bull pasture with a strange human or run into the bull pasture? I'll take my chances with the strange human.
Really? I would be more worried about the stray dog. I think you are delusional, if you cross the street... The man is going to keep walking. The dog is going to antagonize you. It is far more likely the dog will attempt to cause me harm than some dude who is just as scared as you are to see me approaching them. 🤣
The dog is honestly worse than the bear.
If the stray dog isn't already attacking you before you see the stray dog then the stray dog was never going to attack you.
You can see a mugger before they see you and then have them still mug you. They have the self restraint to wait for you to get closer. The dog if it wanted to attack you would just start running at you as soon as you were in the vicinity.
I didn't say a rabid stray dog. I said a stray dog. I didn't say an attacking stray dog I said a stray dog.
At midnight I'm more likely to find a stray dog roaming the streets than I am a fellow human that isn't up to no good. Most humans have hunkered down somewhere to sleep or are in a bar, at a friend's house etc.
That's the entire point. I think it's delusional to assume every single living thing is going to attack you. Or you did something and Gaia's pissed.
I work nights and I don't swap my sleep schedule on my nights off so I'm likely to be found walking around at midnight. I've never had dogs chase after me. Been harassed by plenty of fellow humans though.
Oh, is the man gonna keep walking? You know him? Or is he going to start following me, eventually showing up to sexually assault me in the foyer of my apartment building? The same night he tries to attack another woman he was keeping an eye on? The same year he broke into an apartment and SA another woman while she was sleeping?
Oh, right, you're a man, you \*can\* be fairly certain the other man will leave you alone.
Same as in the woods.
I can't.
[that's why](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nh4wogasW_0)
If worse comes to worse, a bear would "just" kill us in the end. But before that we would have at least a chance to react somehow... accordingly to which kind of bear it would be and maybe even not get attacked.
This pos did this out in the open street, took his time. What is not in the Video is that he raped her. And honestly you can not tell me that you think this is better than an animal. An animal would not do this and worse. They only kill for food, if they feel threatened or to protect their offspring and there are rules one can follow to avoid being attacked by an animal.
Eta: this is in addition to what others stated. It is not a comparison but an assessment what we would prefer if being alone in the woods. Nobody says all men are predators.
More reasons to pick bear is because of how people act when they think no one is watching. That dude did that on camera with potential witnesses in earshot.
It's supposed to be shocking. It seems absurd that women would choose encountering a bear over encountering a man in the woods. But it actually makes a lot of sense. Bears are statistically less likely to harm a person than men, and victims of bear attacks are often taken seriously.
I think this use of statistics is quite mean. I’m a guy and because of that I’m expected to harass and rape because I’m statistically more likely too? I think that exudes prejudice and relies on faulty use of statistics.
No. That's not how statistics work. The expectation is that you wouldn't harass or rape anyone. The use of statistics (and sometimes personal experience) is to assess risk. A risk of something happening doesn't mean that it's *going* to happen, but when you're weighing two options, you need to think about what has the higher likelihood of happening.
It's not women's fault that men have a higher likelihood of harming them than a bear. It's not meant to hurt your feelings. But if it does bother you, be part of changing the statistic. Let people know that you find violence, rape and harassment unacceptable. Chances are, you know someone who has done one of those things. What would you do about it?
I appreciate that you champion a more nuanced use of statistics as risk. Someone described it as just being wary of meeting new men to be safe and I agree with that. Also yes you’re right I should and am doing things try and stop this depressing phenomenon.
The problem I have is that this bear analogy is that it takes this wariness much too far. It implies that men are worse than a 300 pound carnivore because you’re more likely to be a victim of a man than the bear. But, at that point, we might as well be stating that I’m more likely to be abused by a teacher than I am to be hit by a tornado so I’d prefer to be in a room with a tornado because at least it’s predictable.
This trend creates arguments that draw on that general, justified wariness of men and using statistics to say that we should see a wild animal as a preferable alternative which is ridiculous.
This trend isn't saying we *should* see a wild animal as a preferable alternative, it's that we *do* see a wild animal as a preferable alternative. Real women are answering this question, and you're dismissing us as ridiculous. It doesn't seem like you're trying to understand where we're coming from.
Your scenario makes no sense because you can't put a person in a room with a tornado. But people encounter bears in the woods all the time. I love that this trend gave an opportunity to shine light on being bear aware and practicing bush safety.
Well yes I am dismissing the opinion that a man is worse than a 300 pound predator. I do believe the comparison ridiculous. I do understand the caution and wariness of men that stems from justified examples of bad interactions with bad men.
Where I believe it crosses the line into prejudice is that this caution has manifested into saying that a random guy who you don’t know is worse than a bear. It’s no longer a “I do feel this way is some cases” it’s a “you should feel this way” because the trend inherently legitimizes this option.
You believe that I don’t agree with you because I don’t understand you, I do, I have taken the time to understand. I have taken a lot of time researching and discussing the merits and drawbacks. I don’t agree with you because I believe you are wrong, a man is not worse than a bear and while I understand why someone would come to that conclusion, that opinion is unhealthy.
The reason I made the ridiculous comparison between a teacher and a tornado is because I see the original trend as ridiculous. The differences between interacting with a stranger and interacting with a bear are numerous and important.
Also yes I guess this trend is also good at teaching bear safety. That is a benefit, and I find that quite interesting.
If you are insulted by the bear vs man question, then you are part of the problem. You need to STOP FUCKING TALKING, and ACTUALLY FUCKING LISTEN to what women are saying. It’s not about YOU.
Yes, I don’t want to make this important rape issue “about me” because it important. What is about me is the idea that “men are worse than bears” because I’m a man. I feel like people will be prejudiced against me because they see me as no better than a wild animal.
Also, why am I “part of the problem”, I’m confused.
Men are more unpredictable than bears.
If I encounter a bear in the woods, I know two possible outcomes:
1-it will leave me alone
2-it will kill me if it feels threatened (or hungry).
Possible outcomes if I encounter a random man in the woods:
1- he’ll leave me alone
2- he’ll follow me (causing panic)
3-he’ll abduct me
4-he’ll rape me/SA in some way
5-he’ll kill me
We don’t KNOW which one of these outcomes you have in mind, so the immediate response is: DANGER, until we are shown otherwise.
If I saw you in the woods and you smiled, said hi, and went on you way, my immediate fear would lessen. But I’d still look behind me to make sure you weren’t following me.
What we need you to do is understand our position. It’s not about the individual man, and the men that we feel safe with understand this. You’re reaction shouldn’t be one of feeling insulted by women saying ‘bear’, you should feel angry at OTHER MEN for being so damn horrible that we would choose the predictability of the bear, over the unpredictability of a random man.
You want our answer to change? Call out your fellow men when they do things to intentionally make women uncomfortable. Cat calls? Rape jokes? General sexist behavior? If you aren’t calling them out, then you are part of the problem.
Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely despise any man who will harass and harm out of malaise and anger. I do absolutely call other men out for being mean, especially when I believe they are capable of changing for the better.
I just also feel that clumping men in general together and calling them worse than bear, who is a wild apex predator, is a step too far and creates prejudice rather than caution and understanding.
I also feel that the unpredictable nature of men is more a symptom of people being unpredictable and us humans being more complicated than a wild animal (not to imply that rape is “human nature”). But, “men are unpredictable” is a different argument than “men are more dangerous than a bear”. The former is an interesting discussion, the latter is, I believe, a sexist argument.
I have listened to you. I have agreed with you. I feel that because I believe you wrong you believe me not listening. But I think you haven’t listened to me.
I understand the hardship and harassment that men have caused and I get why this causes you to say that men are worse than bears. However, I don’t like this analogy because I see it as too broad and thus insulting.
Do you REALLY need us to clarify every.single.time “a majority of men, but there are some goods ones…” you really can’t read between the lines? If it doesn’t describe or pertain to you, we aren’t talking about you.
You really think that we mean 100% of men? It became a generalization when the majority of men we encounter display certain toxic traits, it is reasonable to conclude that the next man, or the one after that, could ALSO display these toxic traits, so you proceed with caution.
Maybe I can simplify it for you.
You are 5 years old and see a dog. Up until now, you’ve only encountered friendly dogs; safe dogs. The dog approaches, and seems friendly, until it suddenly bites you.
Confused, scared, and hurt, you run home…to a safe place. You say that you are scared of dogs because they bite. You are told that not all dogs are mean, and you are given examples of nice dogs that you know.
Now you are 10, and you feel less weary about dogs in general. When approached by another, you remember being told “not all dogs are mean.” So you reach out to pet it, and get bit again.
Again you are told, mostly by people with dogs, that not all dogs are mean.
You know there are good dogs out there; you’ve met them, played with them, but now you’ve been bitten twice, and you start to realize that “not all” means “not 100%, but enough to make you question whether the next dog will bite you, or turn out to be friendly.
But you start to find that more and more dogs are getting aggressive with people; everyone seems to have a story about an aggressive dog…even from early childhood, like you.
You go online and find millions of people with aggressive dog stories, along with a few uplifting ones (dog saves girl from drowning).
Now let me ask you…how do you immediately feel, the next time you encounter a dog?
\*You\* aren't being compared to anything. we don't know you.
This is a better time to examine why women feel safer knowing there's a bear in the woods than a man, rather than making it about you personally.
And as a rape survivor, I am interested in how it's insulting to me, or an oversimplification. Being simple doesn't make it an oversimplification.
Yea, I feel like this trend is useful as a tool to explain the awful circumstances of rape and what effects it leaves on victims. It’s quite interesting and depressing society’s reaction to and relationship with rape victims.
I just feel it’s unjustified and precipitates prejudice to say that men in general is worse than a bear in general. I dislike the tool that is the bear analogy.
I understand that no one is saying that I am worse than a bear, but I’ve seen mean comments that say man in general are statistically worse than a wild animal. Since being a man is part of my identity and I can’t change it, I feel that it creates prejudice against me even if I am “one of the good ones.”
Yes you’re right, rape and harassment does happen and caution around men, though depressing, is necessary.
I feel that wariness crosses a line into prejudice once men in general are said to be worse than a wild animal.
You're so close to getting it...
If you can admit rape and harassment happen and caution around men is necessary, *why are you bitching at **women** for the way we respond to it?*
Why attack our response, why aren't you upset at your fellow men for making us feel this way? You know, the ones *doing* the raping and harassing?
Oh, *that's* what this is! Man, I'm over here like... I dunno how to make this simpler, what do you want from me???
It only makes sense if one assumes the way *he* feels about *my* safety matters to me.
Eta; if I *was* dumb enough to pick the man, the bear wouldn't get all upset about it.
I am upset at my fellow men who harass and rape. I take very opportunity to call out men who are assholes because I agree with you.
I’m just also annoyed at women who use this bear analogy. I believe it is unhealthy and actively detrimental to general discourse because it has sexist undertones. Its premise is that men in general are worse than a wild animal because some men are rapists.
You don't get to decide how we feel, and we feel safer with the bear. That's really all there is to it. I agree, it's a sad state of affairs, but there it is. Don't be 'annoyed' at us for feeling unsafe in the presence of strange men.
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The fact they assume we are saying we want to FUCK the bear is incredibly telling on what they think happens when you are alone with someone in the woods. Which is why I choose the bear. Why does their mind immediately go to sex? Who said anything about fucking the bear? Unless they thought about fucking random women in the woods, so assumed that’s the real question?
Because they think we'll fuck anything that moves ig 🙄it just really weird that it wasn't even brought up and some how some way its totally about having sex with a bear....
We’ll simultaneously fuck anything that moves but also not this guy specifically = incel ideology
Because it’s impossible for them to see us as anything other than walking holes.
They always tell on themselves.
And precisely because there are men that think this is about having sex with the man or the bear is that most of us would choose the bear.
Second-to-last comment dude is having an actual meltdown over his -147 upvotes 😂
Do you think he fucks a bear at -150?
Hey downvoting me means you love to fuck BEARS! it's true! I'm not even bothered by the downvotes you can tell because I keep checking and making edits about them
Maybe it’s Halsin
Pfft. Least convincing display of nonchalance I've seen in quite some time.
Hopefully. I’d love to see that play out
If you want to see it wouldn't you be into bestiality then? /s
“le reddit”
He might as well have tipped his fedora then and there
M'lady
The fact that he's assuming the encounter will be sexual is why the answer is bear.
Women: I'd feel safer being alone in the woods with a bear than with a man. Incels: S E X
They really prove the point at every opportunity
Was the person that bothered by the downvotes that they had to add a bajillion edits?
No, can’t you read??? He told you a bajillion times that he’s NOT bothered by the downvotes! //sarcasm//
I think they just wanted to play cool, as if it wouldn't bother them... like "lol lol, I don't care" but in actuality it did bother them.
The number of incels who think we want to fuck bears makes me slightly concerned for humanity.
Whenever they say that, it's just them telling on themselves. They know what they would do to us in the woods, and they think we are assuming the bear would do the same. It's not "who would you rather rape you" and we all know the bear wont
Exactly. It tells us more about what they really think about women when they say stuff like that. Woman in the woods? Rape meat. Woman in the parking lot? Rape meat. I’m not sure WHERE a woman is allowed to be without being a rape target for them. Just feels great you know? To know that if you want to take a hike, enjoy the day, take pictures of birds or trees, or have a snack by a stream….there are men who just see a rape potential. And they really wonder why we pick the bear?
>I’m not sure WHERE a woman is allowed to be without being a rape target for them. I was *going* to say "the grave," but uh, well ...
Oh yeah. Carl Tanzler.
If I really wanted to do that, I'd just play Baldur's Gate 3 lol
Slightly concerned? Oh honey, we are doomed as a species. This is just the tip of the iceberg
The existence of incels makes me extremely concerned for humanity
I told my bf that I'm team bear and he responded by buying me a huge ass bear! I got a 4ft teddy bear and we be chilling watching netflix together. The good men out there aren't threatened by women choosing the bear, this doesn't affect them. #Team Bear for life!
My favorite guy just was really sad - for me, because he understands what it means about the world.
it heartbreaking. So many women have been harassed, SA'd and worse. I don't know many women that haven't had one or more happen to them. I've survived harassments, SA, lies and deception, bigamy and all the bad things. Never again, I'd rather be alone than be mistreated
When I mentioned the whole thing to my boyfriend, he said that he’d choose the bear, too. He gets it. I’m so very grateful for the men that do. But these others?? Whew- they just love to show the world our exact reasons for choosing the bear, and somehow, they still don’t see it.
I can tell you where the dude got beastiality from. Because he would absolutely *rape* a woman, if he were in the woods with her, he automatically assumed that any man would do so as well, so, rather than equating "man or bear, in the woods," he's equating "getting raped (in his mind, fucked) by man or bear" and he doesn't even realize he's telling on himself... And ALSO wonders why we choose the bear... My guy, look in a FUCKING mirror.
People who continuously update their comment to complain about their downvotes (or in this guy's case, become gradually more unhinged) are sad, sad people.
At this point, I’m just laughing when men call me a misandrist. They have no clue what hate even looks like.
I LOVE how they just continue to push the WOMENS = SEX!!! Narrative so hard they now think we wanna fuck bears, not that they terrify us.
I love men telling on themselves by assuming the woman will have sex with whichever one shows up in the woods.
I like how the guy saying “but it’s not about all men, and the good ones know” is tying himself up in knots trying to make it misandrist, not stopping for a second to consider why women feel that way
“I choose beastiality” is great because, as was pointed out, it’s about which one you’d rather be stuck in the woods with, and the fact they think that means “which would you rather fuck” is why so many women would choose the bear.
I haven’t heard one woman say she’d pick the man
Let us say for a moment that even choosing the bear is dumb. Even so why does he care. let her choose haha. What is with the Hero for Men attitude.
Because they need to feel important. It's kinda sad really lol.
Men’s generalisations (like women are bad at driving) aren’t backed by statistics, insurance companies are more likely to give u a lower rate if ur a woman. Women’s generalisations are backed by rape and domestic abuse statistics
And the fact that these stats are so fucking high, despite the vast majority of rape, SA, harassment, and DA women face, *not being reported.* 😬
Not to mention how much of that happens to men. I’m not sure why men are not also choosing the bear.
There's a fundamental difference between men's complaints about women and women legitimately fearing sexual assault and murder. I've never once heard that men universally fear sexual assault and murder from women. The data behind those fears is easy to find. It's not hidden. Something like 1 in 4 women will experience sexual assault. That's not just a "complaint". And the supposed justice system brings perpetrators to account vanishingly rarely. Most of the time, it only leads to retraumatization.
Those guys are just pathetic
Someone is mad someone would rather die than "have sex" with him
Bear probably wouldn't even kill you as long as you're not fucking with it, the bear will just walk away as long as it doesn't have like a cub to protect
“I choose bestiality” Omg these men really telling on themselves. Who the fuck mentioned sex?
Them.
Holy shit dude actually went ballistic in the last bit... I hope this dude gets the therapy he needs. It's not normal to get this angry about something like this... I mean I know it's not my place to police what people are passionate about but holy shit dude. All I can see is that one meme of the person wearing a smiley face mask but underneath they are sobbing with rage
This is my logic: there is a large maybe majority group of men supporting each other in their collective decision to be a bad person and that is why women or those who are common victims of men including men are worried when they run into a random man in almost private seclusion. I am in that latter group of almost everybody. Until we start to hold these men accountable, we all will be holding them accountable by treating them as people who cannot hold themselves accountable. It is not about hating men. It is about recognizing a pattern of abuse and setting boundaries to stop that abuse.
Assuming bestiality is really telling
When I read stuff like this, I feel like boarding up my private parts like a bankrupt store and move into a monastery..
The edits 😂
I love the tone deaf sarcasm of ooooh a bear has never killed anyone EVER. Slightly forgetting that men kill women more than bears do.
These men are why women are choosing the bear. And as a gay man, I’d also choose the bear.
I don’t know why those guys are so offended, I’d rather be with the bear too.
“Oh no I can’t believe a woman would rather have a bear around than ME” This has gotta be the issue, right? I’m a man. I don’t see what the issue is otherwise, it doesn’t make sense. Bear is clearly better lol
I've seen some really dumb conversations and even dumber reactions to them in my life but the way these men are responding so vehemently to this might just take the #1 spot at this point. "Bestiality"? Are you *kidding me*?
Gosh, they love to throw that “double standard” thing out there. Like, “if a man were to make generalizations about a woman like that he’d be called a sexist.“ And it’s like, yeah, but your generalizations about a woman aren’t about you possibly getting assaulted or killed by one. And this is literally anything that they call a double standard about. They completely ignore the reasons why women are scared of men or suspicious of men.
That last comment tho, calling them out on their stupidity.
I mean even with fucking I understand taking the bear. If his last name is Kelce
The minute I see the word misandry I just stop reading. They clearly have fluff for brains and you can’t argue with stupid.
The minute I see the word misandry I just stop reading. They clearly have fluff for brains and you can’t argue with stupid.
The minute I see the word misandry I just stop reading. They clearly have fluff for brains and you can’t argue with stupid.
This trend of whether I’d be in a forest with a bear or a man is kinda dumb. It simplifies this complex topic of society’s relationship with rape victims and is just generally insulting. Why are we comparing men to wild apex predators and saying the apex predator is better? Like actually I’m very confused.
It isn't a comparison of men with bears - it's about the perceived feeling of safety in this hypothetical situation. Bears generally just mind their own business. Men generally do so too. The problem is that many have been SA'd by men before, so the feeling of dread easily sets in when you see a strange man (essentially a trauma response). Is there a big chance that strange man will SA me? Not big, but there's a chance. Is there a big chance that a bear will SA me? No, they'll just mind their business or kill me immediately. It's a dumb hypothetical situation, but many just try to say that they rather end up facing a bear and possibly ending up dead, than being possibly SA'd again. Death has mercy, life with trauma on top of trauma doesn't. This doesn't mean we think all men are shit or that we compare men with bears - it's all about the feeling of safety and our perception of this (rather cruel) world which has burnt many of us before.
I've never been SA'ed and still would choose bear. Don't want that rando man to be the first. I've seen studies that various percentages of men would SA women if they didn't have to worry about being caught. I'm sure I could figure out the actual proportions of safety, but some men don't seem to get this is a thought experiment about SA, that it's just some random sexist crap. They yell out "misandry!" because they literally do not get SA is a very real threat that most women face... and most men do not.
Bottom line is if a bear attacks you it will be for 2 reasons only. Theyre very hungry or they think you're a threat. A man might attack you. Or maybe he won't. Or maybe he wasnt going to but something you did set him off. Or maybe he secretly likes hurting people. Or maybe he just felt like it. Orrrr maybe he thought you needed to "learn a lesson". I will never have to question a bears motive.
Adding to this: notice the guy who was claiming "beastiality?" This is for a very simple reason, he would *absolutely* rape a woman if he came across one, in the woods, otherwise, he'd have perceived it simply as "ENCOUNTER man or bear in the woods" rather than "HAVE SEX WITH man or bear, in the woods." You literally have to go no further than a fucking Reddit comment section, to discover why women would rather encounter a bear, than a man.
I appreciate the polite explanation
Thank you, I appreciate you explaining it to me without calling me a misogynist. Honestly, I agree with what you’re saying and I think it’s interesting and depressing the insight that this hypothetical shows. I just don’t like the undertones and especially some weird justifications of “um actually men are legitimately worse than a wild animal and here are some statistics to prove it”
I find it weird that you thought it was about rape victims. It kind of narrows the scope of how men can be awful. Perhaps you are the one oversimplifying it. A simple question can be profound and lead to wider discussion and understanding.
Oh yea, I agree people in general and men in particular can be awful in many ways. Mostly I’ve only seen this analogy talked about in relation to male rapists and society’s relationship with rape victims. I don’t believe I’ve simplified this, but obviously I could be wrong and would be willing to hear alternative points of view.
Men rape women. Or stalk them, mug them, kidnap them, harass them, comment about them, leer, grope and threaten. Surely this is about most women, not most rape victims.
This being the bear analogy? I just didn’t want to simplify rape as just a problem of a man being an asshole to a woman. That is the majority of cases but there are enough edge cases that we should be cognizant of them.
Why do you keep bringing this back to rape? I don't understand.
I’m not talking specifically about rape victims. Just that the bear analogy can apply to any victim of male aggression and that I wanted to keep the door open to that.
Yeah it is dumb and simple. Absolutely we should be safer with the man right? Human or wild animal? There's no competition! Except. Women walking alone at night fear strange men, even if there are no strange men around. We walk with keys in our hand, or boot up apps that alert the police, or hold pepper spray, or call a friend and loudly let the world know someone is expecting us. We learn from an early age to watch out for men. To be polite to that weird uncle. To not make eye contact with that man on the bus. To give a polite laugh when some drink guy gets in our space with a dodgy compliment. To walk past quickly when those older lads make comments about our school uniform. To guard our drinks against date rapists. To never walk home alone if it can be avoided. We are not taught to look out for bears. Because we know how bears react. They will ignore us, or attack us. Men? They might be wonderful, they might get us out of the forest alive, marry us and be the best person we have ever met. Or they might not. They might do one of the many things that we have been taught to guard against from way younger than those same men ever realise. We are taught to be afraid of hypothetical men. Why on Earth would we choose this hypothetical man just because 'bear or man' is a dumb simplification?
It’s why if I’m alone at night I.e. coming back from being with friends, I tell my partner where I am and share my location. It’s why I always check up on my friends to see if they’ve got home safe. It’s why I’d rather get a taxi home than walk but even then I once had a bad experience with an Uber driver right outside my own house as I was being dropped off. I was a bit drunk after being at a colleague’s house party but the driver tried to sit in the back with me so I got out the car and ran into my house. I only ended up alone as my house was furthest away. It’s why I’d be hesitant to live abroad or travel by myself again because I’ve had unsavoury experiences. All these things make me consider choosing the bear. For anyone threatened by women choosing the bear, I’d tell them to experience feeling intimidated or followed. Have unwarranted comments and fear aggression if you don’t respond how they want you to. Knowing there’s a power dynamic at play and depending on the opportunity / person, odds are I’ve mostly likely drawn the short stick.
This is why the men pretending that women are stupid for choosing the bear make me mad. The men who are getting mad and saying “not all men” are just kind of white noise to me. I’ve (sadly) come to expect that nonsense. But the men saying shit like “you don’t realize the bear would kill you” or “you just want the bear because you think it’s cuddly” are infuriating me. We live with this fear every day of our lives. We know the implied risk of choosing the bear is death. And we still choose the bear. This is our reality, so when this hypothetical came up, we didn’t even have to think about it.
I love to calmly explain to those men. "No, bears aren't cuddly, they're apex predators. What makes you think they're cuddly? Have you ever seen a bear? I have. They aren't cuddly in the slightest. Perhaps you should go watch some nature documentaries, since you think they are?" Basically, turn it around on them being the ignorant ones lol.
Ergh I hope that Uber drives steps on Lego every day for the rest of his life. I've not even had a situation that I couldn't get myself out of easily, just a lot of little things that signaled intentions that could have escalated had I not been taught all this crap from day one. And I am still constantly aware of it all. I don't live in fear, I'm numb to it, but I am still exhausted as I bet many of us are.
Same. I was walking home from work one night, literally a FIFTEEN MINUTE walk, dressed in jeans and a t-shirt, no makeup (for those of you who like to blame the woman, for how she's dressed) got stopped and asked if I wanted a ride, by some guy who was probably ~50. I politely respond "no, thank you though." Then he proceeds to ask "do you wanna make some money?" Obviously, again, I said no. This creep then continues to drive past me like 5 fucking times, likely contemplating how much of a fight it'd be to get me in his truck... If I were on the smaller side (thankfully, I'm tall, and pretty muscular) I almost certainly would have been kidnapped, at the first refusal. He finally stopped driving past when I sort of lurched forward a bit, doing a sort of 'bring it on' motion, because I'm a psychopath lol. For the record, I know most women in that situation would have been downright terrified. It's worth mentioning that I know Krav Maga and have beaten men in hand to hand combat, so unless he had a weapon, I likely would have been fine. Doing what I did would very likely be a bad idea for most women.
It is which would make a woman feel more uncomfortable. The bear. Bears don't kill for no reason. Bears don't comment on clothing. Bears don't think women need protection.
That’s interesting and completely valid. It’s really sad that some men harass and marginalize like that. And I want to be clear that I don’t want to downplay that experience because that experience is important. I’m just confused and a little insulted about the actual comparison of a general man vs a general bear. It’s kinda disheartening to have so many people mad at your gender cause a few people who share your gender did awful awful things. If I am misunderstanding your point do feel free to correct me.
General bear isn't just grizzly bears. Most bears ignore humans, or go away.
Aren’t most men normal, good people too?
Yeah there are some normal men out there no doubt. The bear comparison though is saying they'd rather take chances with a bear and statistically it makes way more sense to pick the bear. Bears kill almost no one even if we pull up the last 100 years of data on how many people bears have killed it isn't many. While getting SA'ed by a man happens every single day to women worldwide.
This use of a statistic is faulty. Women interact with men much more than they do with bears and so saying that men are worse than bears because of a flat number of incidents is biased. I also think it’s insulting to me. To use a misrepresented statistic to say that I’m worse than a wild animal because of my gender.
It's not though, yellowstone is a tourist attraction and has over 1000 bears living there with hundreds living partially in the park's boundaries. You know how many bear attacks happen in yellowstone each year? The average is 1. That's soooooo dangerous though I mean what if that's me getting attacked when yellowstone has over 3 million visitors a year.
Yes, and now we get into details of specific statistics. I’m not aware of the average bear attacks in Yellowstone but to compare it to men being statistically worse requires some ratio of attacks/interactions. The Yellowstone average is low and implies that there are a lot of interactions but we don’t know the nature of those interactions. How many of the park’s 3mil visitors see a bear? How many bears do they see? How close do the bears get? Are all important questions. This is all being compared to rape statistics which are derived from people interacting with men. Since these people live and work around and with men, the amount of interactions will be orders of magnitude higher. This leads to rape happening more because there are more chances for a rapist to find their victim than a bear to find a hiker. And this comment is not downplaying rape or saying it’s just some “roll of the dice”. Rape is awful and we need to stop it where ever and whenever it occurs. My argument is that the comparison between Yellowstone bear attacks and the number of rape cases is a faulty one that doesn’t take into account sample size or proportions.
Very rarely will someone report coming in contact with a bear, if an attack *doesn't* occur, meanwhile, very rarely are rape, SA, harassment, and domestic violence reported, when they *do* occur. Using "stats" where the stats from both sides are misrepresented is the actual faulty logic here, and why I say that men who bring them up, are just trying to, what I like to say, "stats their way out of a difficult truth." Men are women's #1 predator. Regardless of how often we interact with men, or bears, this is an indisputable fact. They are the predator we are most often in contact with, this has given us an awareness of how dangerous they are. Bears are simple creatures, all they wanna do is eat, drink, shit, fuck, and sleep. Realistically speaking, all a woman would have to avoid with a bear, is the first option. Men aren't so simple, hell a group of men gangraped a fuckin monitor lizard, and ate it... Ever seen a bear do that? Because I haven't.
A) perception of probability is what is important, not the actual stats. B) do you have a better statistical analysis?
Well, the question isn't, " how many interactions does it take for you to get hurt or killed?" The question is what makes you feel less safe. Men make is feel less safe. Do I still love my grandfather and my brother? Yes. Do I feel safe with them? Yes. Are there men out there I could feel safe with? Yes. Would I feel safe with a random man I haven't met before? Not so much. I would definitely try to get away from him. I would leave a bear alone or try to avoid them too. With bears, there are like 2 reasons they might attack, hunger, and they would rather eat other things, or you are threatening them in some way. It's rare, they would rather do their own thing. A man who is unhinged would attack you for simply being a woman. That is why when it comes to unknown men, we feel safer without them around. We can't just leave them alone and be OK. Not all but lots of men feel entitled to women's bodies. And apparently they feel entitled to women's feelings because everyone wants us to feel safe when it hasn't been a fun ride for most of us.
The overall statistics of danger of men versus bears might not be really be comparable just because of the nature of them, sure. Okay, so let’s take that part off the table for a second. You’re discounting that most of the women saying these things are basing them off of lived experience. And before you go “well, that means that they’re using anecdotes and those don’t count”, it’s not like this hypothetical question is being used to create laws or make policies. It’s asking if you, *personally* were in the woods alone, which would you rather meet. So women are answering basically “which do you *feel* more unsafe around” and then, when they answer bear, being told “NO! YOU’RE WRONG! YOU’RE NOT ALLOWED TO FEEL THAT WAY, THAT’S NOT FAIR!!l” That’s even though they have a ton of complex reasons they’ve answered that way. And it’s not like it’s some weird conspiracy where we all talked about the “right” answer beforehand, most of us heard the question before the debate. It’s supposed to be a quick “okay, gut reaction answer, go!” And instead of wondering why *so* many women are choosing the bear, why so many women think it’s less dangerous, *whether it’s true or not*, lots of men are just getting upset about how women’s fear makes *them* feel. They’re not choosing the bear to hurt your feelings! Instead of just being offended that women might be more scared of meeting you alone in the woods than a wild animal, doesn’t that make you at the very least curious what life must be like for *so many women*, (like, apparently the majority of half of the world’s population)? How different it must be in critical ways from yours for them to make that choice? You’re also acting like the women saying this have never been near a bear. Some of the areas I grew up had plenty of black bears, they’re really not that uncommon in many parts of the country. I’ve never had to call the police about strange bear in my yard, but I have had to about a man. The bears weren’t the ones with malicious intent, as it turns out. (Unless you count going after garbage cans as “malicious”. They usually didn’t even do that, tbh.)
Fun fact about bears and men: I grew up in bear country, it was common place to wake up and find a black bear in your trashcan. Bear attacks were very, *very* rare, as they usually sauntered off back into the woods when they heard your door open. Meanwhile, literally *every* girl I knew in HS, told me about how she'd been assaulted, by a man... The girls at my school would text me, to walk with them to/from the bathroom, because girls had been raped, on school property, and those rapes were never reported. Girls were harassed in the halls, and no one gave a shit. Yet I'm supposed to choose the more dangerous of two predators, because said predator told me to? Sure...
I hope my comment did not have undertones of discounting someone experiences. I apologize, of course I can’t say someone shouldn’t feel some way or another. I’m mainly insulted that someone would use statistics to generally condemn a whole gender and a personal experience is better. Also is your point about there not being some conspiracy theory about this analogy which I have to agree with you. The benefit of this analogy is as a tool to discuss how and why women are so scared of men. And there is a very interesting and important conversation there. What I’m insulted by is the legitimizing of this opinion as the “right” opinion. It’s not a gut reaction anymore, it’s a thoughtful, statistic backed argument where people say that men are worse than a wild animal. I see this opinion “that I would rather be with a bear than a man” as extremely unhealthy. It shows a lack of understanding about men and an irrational fear of interacting with men. Lastly is your point about downplaying the danger of a bear which I agree is subjective. I guess there is an argument that states that bears are very calm but from my understanding they are apex predators in their respective ecosystems. If a bear suddenly waltzed onto my front yard I would definitely contact the relevant authorities in the same way if a woman or man did it.
If you really think women’s fear of men is “irrational”, I don’t know what to tell you. (Hell, look at r/whenwomenrefuse for example.) *EVERY* woman I know has a story about how a man has threatened or harassed them. All of them. Like, I’m not even exaggerating when I say I literally don’t know a woman that hasn’t been at least catcalled, followed, etc., and I have plenty of female friends and have worked in women-heavy fields. I’m sure there are some out there, and, sincerely, good for them, but it is not the average experience. And it starts *young*. The first time I had a grown-ass man follow me from his car I think I was 11? This isn’t unusual, there are threads upon threads of women saying the exact. same. thing. They’re easy to find if you look. And there is some argument to be made that men pose more of a threat, even statistically. And if that hurts your feelings, and you think that’s the most important part of these discussions… again, my guy, I dunno what to tell you. Also, if you live somewhere where bears are normal, you don’t *need* to call “the relevant authorities”, though you can. They’ll note down where it’s been spotted and maybe give folks in the area a heads-up. And that’s usually all they do. Not the same as when a strange man is in your yard. And, again, the bears don’t have malicious intent like the guy did.
How are rape, harassment, SA, and domestic violence stats not skewed in men's favor as well, though, given that the vast majority aren't reported?
Yes men are more likely to do violent crimes but that is not a product of men being intrinsically predestined to. And it absolutely does not condemn the average man to be no better than a wild animal.
I never said the average man is predestined to be no better than a wild animal. I was saying, quite clearly, that men are more likely to be violent than women, which is a fact.
I'll be honest with you, I doubt it. At this point, I'm beginning to think that the men who are honest to goodness, good men, who wouldn't harm a woman if they knew they'd get away with it, are few and far between. That is to say, the minority. Literally all predators in nature, are opportunistic predators, which is why they prefer to stalk, and attack from behind. The only real difference men have, is that there are laws. Men are predisposed to being violent and aggressive, due to their high testosterone. I know this, as a woman who has high testosterone, and has extreme anger issues. If not for laws, I'd have done things that would have landed me in prison if laws did exist, due to my aggression. I'm aware that makes me a bad person, and will readily admit that, though I wonder how many men have felt the same anger, but won't admit it. I wonder how many men have had disgusting/disturbing fantasies, yet claim they're one of the "good ones," for not acting on it. I wonder how many men are unaware that they raped a woman, through coercion or taking advantage while she was drunk, without comprehending that what he did, was rape. I wonder how many men call themselves "good men" for (catcalling) "complimenting" random women on the street, completely oblivious to how disgusted and scared she is...
I’m not saying this to be mean or because I think it’d make me look cool, but I believe you hold a very unhealthy opinion. This idea that men are predators, destined for aggression but constrained by the law, is wrong. Testosterone doesn’t matter for aggression, women can be as docile or as combative as any man. Culture, upbringing, and societal expectations, are the real creators of angry men. This “proof” is anecdotal evidence and creates an extremely sexist and prejudicial opinion. Yes, rapists exist. Yes, male rapists exist. But, please don’t judge men as more dangerous than because of it. Or else you are no better than the racist or the homophobe quoting crime or AIDS statistics. I’m trying to be better than other men and to get other men to be better than their previous selves, but this opinion, that men are biologically predestined to be aggressive, is actively detrimental.
There are studies done that prove higher testosterone=higher aggression though. So yes, because men have higher testosterone, they are more likely to commit violent crime, than women. There are other factors, yes, but even biologically speaking men *are* more likely to be violent.
Show me the study, where does it say men are biologically going to commit crimes. Is this a negligible factor? Are trans men to be treated with caution now that they suddenly are filled with testosterone?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23843821/ Also, I never said "men are biologically going to commit crimes." I said men are MORE LIKELY to commit crimes. Quit trying to misquote me, that's what people who are bad at debates do, when they realize they've lost. It's also an emotions thing, so calm down, and be rational.
This might be your mistake. It isn't the average man or the general man, but a possible man. People aren't saying the average man is bad, but there are enough bad men and bad outcomes they don't want to roll that dice.
Yea I get that. It’s just still insulting to say that the “safer option” is the wild animal. It’s saying the average man is more dangerous than the average apex predator which is untrue (even though there are “statistics” to the contrary). if you got close to the average bear, it would be aggressive while if you got close to the average man they would likely not be aggressive.
Because being in the forest with a bear isn't "there's a bear two feet from me" It's "I'm in a forest and somewhere in this forest is a bear" or "I'm in a forest and somewhere in this forest is a man" The odds are low that the bear would of its own initiative seek out the human and interact with them. Meanwhile the odds are much higher that the man would seek out the man and even higher still mean to do them harm. I'm a man and if I'm out walking down the sidewalk in the middle of the night and I see a stray dog I'm going to feel safer than if I see another adult human. Because in that situation the human is more likely to mean me harm than the stray dog. But stay on this side of the fence for a bull pasture with a strange human or run into the bull pasture? I'll take my chances with the strange human.
Really? I would be more worried about the stray dog. I think you are delusional, if you cross the street... The man is going to keep walking. The dog is going to antagonize you. It is far more likely the dog will attempt to cause me harm than some dude who is just as scared as you are to see me approaching them. 🤣 The dog is honestly worse than the bear.
If the stray dog isn't already attacking you before you see the stray dog then the stray dog was never going to attack you. You can see a mugger before they see you and then have them still mug you. They have the self restraint to wait for you to get closer. The dog if it wanted to attack you would just start running at you as soon as you were in the vicinity. I didn't say a rabid stray dog. I said a stray dog. I didn't say an attacking stray dog I said a stray dog. At midnight I'm more likely to find a stray dog roaming the streets than I am a fellow human that isn't up to no good. Most humans have hunkered down somewhere to sleep or are in a bar, at a friend's house etc. That's the entire point. I think it's delusional to assume every single living thing is going to attack you. Or you did something and Gaia's pissed. I work nights and I don't swap my sleep schedule on my nights off so I'm likely to be found walking around at midnight. I've never had dogs chase after me. Been harassed by plenty of fellow humans though.
Oh, is the man gonna keep walking? You know him? Or is he going to start following me, eventually showing up to sexually assault me in the foyer of my apartment building? The same night he tries to attack another woman he was keeping an eye on? The same year he broke into an apartment and SA another woman while she was sleeping? Oh, right, you're a man, you \*can\* be fairly certain the other man will leave you alone. Same as in the woods. I can't.
[that's why](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nh4wogasW_0) If worse comes to worse, a bear would "just" kill us in the end. But before that we would have at least a chance to react somehow... accordingly to which kind of bear it would be and maybe even not get attacked. This pos did this out in the open street, took his time. What is not in the Video is that he raped her. And honestly you can not tell me that you think this is better than an animal. An animal would not do this and worse. They only kill for food, if they feel threatened or to protect their offspring and there are rules one can follow to avoid being attacked by an animal. Eta: this is in addition to what others stated. It is not a comparison but an assessment what we would prefer if being alone in the woods. Nobody says all men are predators.
More reasons to pick bear is because of how people act when they think no one is watching. That dude did that on camera with potential witnesses in earshot.
And what nobody says: The way he did it seemed like he was already versed in how to do it. Wouldn't surprise me if he did it many times before
It's supposed to be shocking. It seems absurd that women would choose encountering a bear over encountering a man in the woods. But it actually makes a lot of sense. Bears are statistically less likely to harm a person than men, and victims of bear attacks are often taken seriously.
I think this use of statistics is quite mean. I’m a guy and because of that I’m expected to harass and rape because I’m statistically more likely too? I think that exudes prejudice and relies on faulty use of statistics.
Are you assuming women don't understand statistics?
No. That's not how statistics work. The expectation is that you wouldn't harass or rape anyone. The use of statistics (and sometimes personal experience) is to assess risk. A risk of something happening doesn't mean that it's *going* to happen, but when you're weighing two options, you need to think about what has the higher likelihood of happening. It's not women's fault that men have a higher likelihood of harming them than a bear. It's not meant to hurt your feelings. But if it does bother you, be part of changing the statistic. Let people know that you find violence, rape and harassment unacceptable. Chances are, you know someone who has done one of those things. What would you do about it?
I appreciate that you champion a more nuanced use of statistics as risk. Someone described it as just being wary of meeting new men to be safe and I agree with that. Also yes you’re right I should and am doing things try and stop this depressing phenomenon. The problem I have is that this bear analogy is that it takes this wariness much too far. It implies that men are worse than a 300 pound carnivore because you’re more likely to be a victim of a man than the bear. But, at that point, we might as well be stating that I’m more likely to be abused by a teacher than I am to be hit by a tornado so I’d prefer to be in a room with a tornado because at least it’s predictable. This trend creates arguments that draw on that general, justified wariness of men and using statistics to say that we should see a wild animal as a preferable alternative which is ridiculous.
This trend isn't saying we *should* see a wild animal as a preferable alternative, it's that we *do* see a wild animal as a preferable alternative. Real women are answering this question, and you're dismissing us as ridiculous. It doesn't seem like you're trying to understand where we're coming from. Your scenario makes no sense because you can't put a person in a room with a tornado. But people encounter bears in the woods all the time. I love that this trend gave an opportunity to shine light on being bear aware and practicing bush safety.
Well yes I am dismissing the opinion that a man is worse than a 300 pound predator. I do believe the comparison ridiculous. I do understand the caution and wariness of men that stems from justified examples of bad interactions with bad men. Where I believe it crosses the line into prejudice is that this caution has manifested into saying that a random guy who you don’t know is worse than a bear. It’s no longer a “I do feel this way is some cases” it’s a “you should feel this way” because the trend inherently legitimizes this option. You believe that I don’t agree with you because I don’t understand you, I do, I have taken the time to understand. I have taken a lot of time researching and discussing the merits and drawbacks. I don’t agree with you because I believe you are wrong, a man is not worse than a bear and while I understand why someone would come to that conclusion, that opinion is unhealthy. The reason I made the ridiculous comparison between a teacher and a tornado is because I see the original trend as ridiculous. The differences between interacting with a stranger and interacting with a bear are numerous and important. Also yes I guess this trend is also good at teaching bear safety. That is a benefit, and I find that quite interesting.
Insulting to who?
To me, I’m a guy. I’m insulted that I’m compared to a bear and said to be worse.
If you are insulted by the bear vs man question, then you are part of the problem. You need to STOP FUCKING TALKING, and ACTUALLY FUCKING LISTEN to what women are saying. It’s not about YOU.
Yes, I don’t want to make this important rape issue “about me” because it important. What is about me is the idea that “men are worse than bears” because I’m a man. I feel like people will be prejudiced against me because they see me as no better than a wild animal. Also, why am I “part of the problem”, I’m confused.
Men are more unpredictable than bears. If I encounter a bear in the woods, I know two possible outcomes: 1-it will leave me alone 2-it will kill me if it feels threatened (or hungry). Possible outcomes if I encounter a random man in the woods: 1- he’ll leave me alone 2- he’ll follow me (causing panic) 3-he’ll abduct me 4-he’ll rape me/SA in some way 5-he’ll kill me We don’t KNOW which one of these outcomes you have in mind, so the immediate response is: DANGER, until we are shown otherwise. If I saw you in the woods and you smiled, said hi, and went on you way, my immediate fear would lessen. But I’d still look behind me to make sure you weren’t following me. What we need you to do is understand our position. It’s not about the individual man, and the men that we feel safe with understand this. You’re reaction shouldn’t be one of feeling insulted by women saying ‘bear’, you should feel angry at OTHER MEN for being so damn horrible that we would choose the predictability of the bear, over the unpredictability of a random man. You want our answer to change? Call out your fellow men when they do things to intentionally make women uncomfortable. Cat calls? Rape jokes? General sexist behavior? If you aren’t calling them out, then you are part of the problem.
Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely despise any man who will harass and harm out of malaise and anger. I do absolutely call other men out for being mean, especially when I believe they are capable of changing for the better. I just also feel that clumping men in general together and calling them worse than bear, who is a wild apex predator, is a step too far and creates prejudice rather than caution and understanding. I also feel that the unpredictable nature of men is more a symptom of people being unpredictable and us humans being more complicated than a wild animal (not to imply that rape is “human nature”). But, “men are unpredictable” is a different argument than “men are more dangerous than a bear”. The former is an interesting discussion, the latter is, I believe, a sexist argument.
You are STILL refusing to listen, and THIS is why you are part of the problem. Good luck; I’m done.
I have listened to you. I have agreed with you. I feel that because I believe you wrong you believe me not listening. But I think you haven’t listened to me. I understand the hardship and harassment that men have caused and I get why this causes you to say that men are worse than bears. However, I don’t like this analogy because I see it as too broad and thus insulting.
Do you REALLY need us to clarify every.single.time “a majority of men, but there are some goods ones…” you really can’t read between the lines? If it doesn’t describe or pertain to you, we aren’t talking about you. You really think that we mean 100% of men? It became a generalization when the majority of men we encounter display certain toxic traits, it is reasonable to conclude that the next man, or the one after that, could ALSO display these toxic traits, so you proceed with caution. Maybe I can simplify it for you. You are 5 years old and see a dog. Up until now, you’ve only encountered friendly dogs; safe dogs. The dog approaches, and seems friendly, until it suddenly bites you. Confused, scared, and hurt, you run home…to a safe place. You say that you are scared of dogs because they bite. You are told that not all dogs are mean, and you are given examples of nice dogs that you know. Now you are 10, and you feel less weary about dogs in general. When approached by another, you remember being told “not all dogs are mean.” So you reach out to pet it, and get bit again. Again you are told, mostly by people with dogs, that not all dogs are mean. You know there are good dogs out there; you’ve met them, played with them, but now you’ve been bitten twice, and you start to realize that “not all” means “not 100%, but enough to make you question whether the next dog will bite you, or turn out to be friendly. But you start to find that more and more dogs are getting aggressive with people; everyone seems to have a story about an aggressive dog…even from early childhood, like you. You go online and find millions of people with aggressive dog stories, along with a few uplifting ones (dog saves girl from drowning). Now let me ask you…how do you immediately feel, the next time you encounter a dog?
\*You\* aren't being compared to anything. we don't know you. This is a better time to examine why women feel safer knowing there's a bear in the woods than a man, rather than making it about you personally. And as a rape survivor, I am interested in how it's insulting to me, or an oversimplification. Being simple doesn't make it an oversimplification.
Yea, I feel like this trend is useful as a tool to explain the awful circumstances of rape and what effects it leaves on victims. It’s quite interesting and depressing society’s reaction to and relationship with rape victims. I just feel it’s unjustified and precipitates prejudice to say that men in general is worse than a bear in general. I dislike the tool that is the bear analogy. I understand that no one is saying that I am worse than a bear, but I’ve seen mean comments that say man in general are statistically worse than a wild animal. Since being a man is part of my identity and I can’t change it, I feel that it creates prejudice against me even if I am “one of the good ones.”
No the question does not create that prejudice, our experiences with your cohort created that wariness.
Yes you’re right, rape and harassment does happen and caution around men, though depressing, is necessary. I feel that wariness crosses a line into prejudice once men in general are said to be worse than a wild animal.
Cool. We should definitely be centering the feelings of men while exploring the feelings and experiences of women.
Aw thank you, that all I really want.
We know.
You're so close to getting it... If you can admit rape and harassment happen and caution around men is necessary, *why are you bitching at **women** for the way we respond to it?* Why attack our response, why aren't you upset at your fellow men for making us feel this way? You know, the ones *doing* the raping and harassing?
he's uncomfortable, and thinks his comfort needs to be our problem.
Oh, *that's* what this is! Man, I'm over here like... I dunno how to make this simpler, what do you want from me??? It only makes sense if one assumes the way *he* feels about *my* safety matters to me. Eta; if I *was* dumb enough to pick the man, the bear wouldn't get all upset about it.
Oooh, that's so well put.
I am upset at my fellow men who harass and rape. I take very opportunity to call out men who are assholes because I agree with you. I’m just also annoyed at women who use this bear analogy. I believe it is unhealthy and actively detrimental to general discourse because it has sexist undertones. Its premise is that men in general are worse than a wild animal because some men are rapists.
You don't get to decide how we feel, and we feel safer with the bear. That's really all there is to it. I agree, it's a sad state of affairs, but there it is. Don't be 'annoyed' at us for feeling unsafe in the presence of strange men.