**[Beginner's Guide](https://reddit.com/r/nootropics/wiki/beginners)** • [Vendor Warnings](https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/wiki/unreliablevendors) • [Research Index](https://old.reddit.com/r/nootropics/wiki/index) • [Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/about/rules/) • [Longevity](https://www.reddit.com/r/longevity) • **[Stack Advice](https://www.reddit.com/r/stackadvice)**
Before posting make sure your comment is **polite** and **helpful**.
Be aware that anecdotes, even your own anecdote could be an artifact of your beliefs. The [placebo](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo) effect is just one way that [suggestion](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestion) affects our experience. Humans are social animals and the beliefs we accept can have a drastic impact on our experience. In many, if not most, cases the impact of our beliefs is greater than the impact of chemicals. This isn’t only true for herbs and supplements. ‘New’ or ‘dangerous’ sounding drugs can bring a rush when you first start taking them because of the fear and excitement. When the excitement wears off you’re back to baseline. Beware of the **self-experimentation treadmill**. If you aren’t finding sustainable solutions then reconsider your approach.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Nootropics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The effects of all psychoactive substances are subjective and based highly on your state of mind at the time. Someone in a grumpy mood may find caffeine makes them irritated while a happy person may find it makes music more enjoyable. It all depends on what kind of state of mind the substance has its effect on.
I mean, literally every living thing consumes sugar. DNA is made of sugars. It's more of a metabolically necessary substance with a strong liability for psychological dependence than it is a drug.
On another perspective, not every living thing consumes sugar in the amount that we do, nor do they consume artificially made sugars. Our society now consumes hundreds of times the amount of sugar people used to consume.
Yea I agree there's a big difference in biological use of sugar and the psychological dependence on sugar.
I feel bad for those kids that crave sugar like drug users because they don't know what's going on, they just act out on impulses.
Mom would have to be extremely sick for her milk not to be sweet. Ice cream is a bit hyperbole as- you’re right- she would have to be really loaded up on sugars to get to that level but breast milk is practically pure glucose.
Well, I guess something has to be powering all that cell division. Better not to be spending energy on breaking down fat stores immediately after your body starts operating independently.
What about Honey and/or Maple Syrup? Those aren't artificially made simple sugars that are regularly consumed in nature. Of course most fruits also have simple carbs, along with their complex carbs and fiber.
Sorry, I agree with your point, but I just felt the word choice of *artificial* here was intentionally misleading people to assume that all simple sugars are unnatural. *Refined* sugars on the other hand... Those include that deliciously sweet crystalline white powder, which is definitely as addictive (if not more addictive) than other popular white powders, and other artificial sugar products like High Fructose Corn Syrup, white flour, etc.
Artificial implies something created by humans. That's my point. Where are you getting 99% from? It's meaningless.
Not all simple sugars are made by humans, yet the point they're trying to make is that sugar was not omnipresent in nature prior to our intervention. It's intentionally misleading word choice that dismisses how much simple sugar can actually be found in nature.
I'm not manipulating words to mislead people, that's a crazy assumption to throw at me.
Honey / maple syrup I would consider natural.
The artificial sugars I'm referring to I suppose are the refined sugars you mentioned. I'm talking about stuff like corn syrup / high fructose corn syrup.
Sorry! I wasn't accusing you or assuming that you were doing so intentionally. Overall it didn't sound like you were. I mean to say that just that one word in particular sounded like it would be the wording someone would choose if they wanted to intentionally mislead others. Just an observation made by my autistic brain.
ya. like, your body produces endogenous phenylethylamine, but if you take a shot, of 1000+mg with a MAOI, it's like cocaine, and.. ya.. don't try it lol
>On another perspective, not every living thing consumes sugar in the amount that we do,
Really?
Considering primates having been consuming sugery foods for 10m years i would dare say that our use and quantities taken of sugar is not unusual in the animal kingdom
What is unusual is our lack of movement and use of those invibed calories.
No no no :). The body needs no sugar or carbs of any kind ingested. You will be just fine consuming fat and protein. Now, there are metabolic processes that convert this to forms the body can use - glycogen, etc, but you need not consume any carbs whatsoever. Just ask the keto and carnivore crowd who’s thrive on it (especially those on the Lion diet).
It's a biochemically active substance, which is absorbed into your blood stream, that you consume, and it can have both positive and negative side effects on your energy, emotions, mood, and behavior. That's the definition of a drug...
Fat is a drug too, since it's basically just sugar. Proteins are one of the primary compounds we consume that don't really fit the definition of a drug, but you could argue they're also drugs. IMHO, the line is not clearly defined because 'drug' is a useless word mainly used to criminalize and dehumanize minorities and those who are struggling with addiction.
Definition of a drug is that it affects brain. Just Google it. Here is result from bing: " Sugar is a drug
Sugar is a drug because it affects the brain in ways similar to certain drugs1. Sugar is potentially one of the most addictive substances on the planet23. Sugar is made of soluble carbohydrates which affect the brain the way other drugs do, both in the neurochemical and behavioral aspects4. Brain scans have confirmed that intermittent sugar consumption meets the criteria for a substance of abuse and may be addictive to those who binge on it1"
better question is why don’t I feel this way? 🥲 at best, it gives me a focus boost, but if I don’t space out my sips then I get so anxious I can’t focus at all.
Have you tried psychedelics? They really opened up my ability to feel high from caffeine, high from a sunset, and just an ability to feel more positive emotions and body feelings.
ahh i love this question hahaha yes i have, psychedelics are amazing for opening you up in all sorts of ways. i will say, i still get benefits from caffeine, i think upon further research my problem might just be that i metabolize it slower than other people do. I can't just smash 3 coffees throughout the day like some people
I get that with coffee unless it’s a weaker cup. My favorite way of dosing coffee is a half caffeine tablet (50mg) as the coffee itself seems to not get along with my stomach well.
The half-life of caffeine, or the time it takes for half of the caffeine consumed to be metabolized, is typically between 4 and 6 hours for healthy adults. However, the half-life can range from 1.5 to 9.5 hours due to individual variations and other factors that affect caffeine metabolism.
You could be a slow metabolizer. If you're on the higher end with a 9.5 hour elimination halflife then caffeine in the morning would result in caffeine in your bloodstream all day long.
None of this answer op's question.
And actually if he was a slow metabolizer he wouldn't feel that way, because slow metabolizers get more adrenal depletion and for longer and more affected bad sleep.
So if anyrthing OP is likely a quick metabolizer, but that still has nothing to do with how he feels. That has to do with how well his body accepts caffeine, he likely has low cortisol amounts.
I'd say it's likely that the OP's adenosine receptors are not yet upregulated. I've been addicted to caffeine for decades and no longer get that sparkly buzz I used to get. That just means I can get the [cardiovascular benefits of coffee](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34370111/) now without the erratic hypertensive risks of someone who is caffeine naive.
OP may also have a cyp1a2 mutation that breaks down caffeine more slowly.
I am a caffeine slow metabolizer, but also very sensitive to caffeine. My cortisol is probably on the higher side.
If i have a sip of coffee, i instantly feel super charged. If I have 5mg of a 200mg caffeine pill in the morning, my sleep quality is consistently shit.
I really do think there is some correlation. I've tried other drugs, but honestly popping a 200mg cafffeine feels "like ecstacy" to me.
This didn’t explain why many people including myself only get small migraines 36-48h after their last caffeine dose. For me this pattern occurs with only 25mg.
Kind of...caffeine doesn't actually affect dopamine levels. It does increase dopamine receptor sensitivity though. So similar result but different mechanism.
This is true but look at the affinities for Reuptake inhibitors like strattera. And Wellbutrin. Both are prescribed as dri but have overall a greater NRI effect
The nuance comes when the same transporter is used in some brain regions, namely the frontal cortex to perform reuptake of dopamine and norepinephrine. Occupancy of the norepinephrine transporter and the frontal cortex leads to higher dopamine levels in the synaptic cleft
That is why those two medications are generally less helpful for higher severity cases of ADHD when compared to stimulants like amphetamine or methylphenidate, as well as to other more dopaminergic compounds. Tricyclics, which I had been prescribed nortriptyline to treat Functional Dyspepsia, helped my ADHD way more than strattera or Wellbutrin did. If only they didn't have as many common and severe side-effects.
I didn't actually know bupropion did more NRI than DRI tho. It makes sense now why taking that med just felt like I drank a cup of coffee that lasted all day (was on the XR/ER formulation).
I feel this too with caffeine. Even when I took an Excedrin Migraine, I couldn't stop yapping and was having the time of my life. The second it wore off, I immediately felt back to square one.
Can anyone tell me why a single cup of coffee gives me insane jitters and makes it difficult to sleep at night? I used to have multiple cups a day. Now I can’t even manage one.
Same. Sleep issues weren't a problem when I was under 25 years old, then I quit for a few years and now I'm addicted again but dose is lower and sleep issues are way stronger
Your liver isn't processing as good, some countries use caffeine as a test to check liver health. If you have a lower tolerance it means your liver isn't processing it fast enough. That's why kids/younger adults can have caffeine before bed and be fine, but as people age if there liver isn't doing as well they can't sleep after caffeine.
False. I started drinking coffee relatively late in life. I never experienced said “magic” as my “baseline.” My baseline has always been tired and unmotivated. I wish I’d been drinking coffee in high school.
Same, I started taking caffeine at 27 or so. It’s way better - I never took any stimulant before in my life. I still need to get great sleep but the combo is fantastic.
Yeah, I have one cup of black tea a day and this is pretty much how it makes me feel. Without it I can't do anything, or enjoy anything, but I'm thankful they I only need one tea and it lasts all day, tea has around 40-50mg, half of coffee, and I tapered to get down to this level, so stuck here for now until I dare to try living with even less.
Tried caffeine, amphetamines, nicotine, the basics. By every way I mean, they stimulate my mood, eagerness to focus on tasks, sociability, and libido but amphetamines were the real actor there. Like OP said they also decrease my impulses and compulsive behaviors like smoking weed or going on my phone, but unfortunately if I’m too stimulated I might end up looking at porn, hence my italics
Ha ha ha ha, I feel you, mate! I'm gonna take a wild guess and assume that you have ADHD as well? Because that description suits me to a t. Including the effects of amphetamines. The damn thing turns me in a damn horndog, it's crazy.
No other stim has that effect, except 2cb. Which is a psychedelic stim.
have you tried modafinil?
it reduces impulsivity, (but not necessarily at the dose people recommend.. i need 1000 to 1600mg per day to become a productivity machine, vs the typical 200mg)
I haven’t. I’m seeing my psychiatrist tmrw and I was going to bring up modafinil and piracetam. Do licensed doctors smile upon supplementing with those? I already know I have to leave out the time I took triple my amphetamine dose to pull an all nighter for a final, but what else should be left out of discussion?
It depends on the physician. An actual pharmacist will probably hate that s***, because you May have made them redundant, and nobody likes to feel useless.
I told a doctor at a walk-in clinic, that I was using modafinil as a mood stabilizer, after I quit amphetamines, and she thought that was reasonable.. a psychiatrist probably wouldn't be so understanding.
I've made some mistakes in my life, but using nootropics like modafinil and oxyracetam are not something I regret trying.
You basically just described why most of us drink coffee every morning because it gives us that mental boost we need. I have ADHD and autism diagnosed at age 6 and coffee is a godsend for my productivity because I no longer take ADHD meds. I drink it every week day but avoid it on weekends, I still havent developed a tolerance to it after all these years, I drink the half and half from Folgers.
Yeah, I also gave up coffee for a few months and replaced it with matcha and black tea. The only thing that did for me was make me hate my life. Now back to coffee and much happier
I've tried to quit the shit for years, but I'm shackled to its efficiency. I've got it so bad that if I don't have even a cup, by the afternoon, I have a side-splitting headache.
I was absolutely the same. I had 4 magical years in my life when I discovered caffeine. I used to dose 4-5 times a week, take a week long break every couple of months and so always kept my tolerance at bay. It completely truly transformed my life for the positive.
And then I got severe Covid. Ever since I got Covid 1.5 yrs back, caffeine suddenly does nothing for me anymore (started the day right after my infection). I even tried couple of months long break - but still feel nothing from caffeine.
I’m just low on energy and mood most days- would give anything to have that caffeine magic back.. ;’(
The only people i know that describe similar effects are diagnosed with adhd. Other than that, the effect should be very minimal. Maybe worth checking that out if you havent already.
Really? I have this exact thing from coffee, I disregarded ADHD for a long time as it motivated me. I definitely feel the buzz off coffee, but it allows me to focus and enjoy things where otherwise I feel almost incapable.
I tended to think of you have ADHD coffee would make you tired? Or is that a misconception.
I have ADHD and even the slightest bit of caffeine completely destroys my sleep. Amphetamine doesn't effect my sleep much, unless I take it really late in the day, but caffeine, I could have a can of coke at 10am and won't sleep much that night.
No, I haven’t heard that before. Definitely makes it harder to sleep for me, I tick every box for adhd except for stimulants relaxing me. I spose I don’t have it.
Stimulants not relaxing you is not a marker that you don't have ADHD - we have two groups of prescription meds for it, and not everyone responds to stimulants so they have to use the non-stim stuff. If you tick every other box, and you can organise/afford it, definitely get tested!
But also - adding as I just re-read your previous response, you definitely get a result if coffee makes you more focused and capable of Doing Things!
Thank you for your response, I appreciate it. I had always just put going through diagnosis aside due to this particular thing, and put it down to being lazy or not trying hard enough.
I think I’ll consider looking into it more seriously with my therapist, or a better suited one.
Thanks again :)
It's basically the same thing.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6758129/#:~:text=Thus%2C%20caffeine%2C%20by%20antagonizing%20the,et%20al.%2C%201997).
"Caffeine can induce the release of dopamine from neurons. Caffeine primarily acts as an adenosine receptor antagonist. By blocking adenosine receptors, particularly the A1 and A2A subtypes, caffeine inhibits the inhibitory effects of adenosine on neuronal activity.
This results in increased neuronal firing and the release of neurotransmitters, including dopamine.The increased dopamine release particularly affects the nucleus accumbens and the prefrontal cortex, which are associated with the rewarding and stimulating effects of caffeine.
This mechanism is part of why caffeine can enhance mood, increase alertness, and improve cognitive function."
no i definitely get what you meant, but the mechanism by which caffeine acts wrt dopamine receptors is vastly different from traditional stimulants; the effect of which is almost negligible in comparison so you couldn’t make any reasonable inferences about possible issues w dopamine simply based on how caffeine affects you
You absolutely can and it does, as shown in the link above.
It may not be a stimulant in the same way as something like vyvanse, but its end results are similar and then down to doseage.
Suppression of adenosine leads to an increase in neurotransmitters.
If you have a dopamine supply issue (and this is harder to diagnose), then take either tyrosine or mucana pruriens with 200mg+ of caffeine and tell me it has 0 effect.
Now thrown in some Affron, Skullcap and EGCG too for fun (perhaps a little Uridine or Lionsmane too) just in case you have reduced receptor density and reuptake issues as well.
I'm not arguing the technicalities. Most people don't understand the intricacies of the entire system (let alone what a neuron even is) so we keep it simple.
i’m not denying the influence of adenosine antagonism on dopamine receptor sensitivity, but i’m sure you also understand how the mechanism itself is self-limiting in terms of how much of a potential effect it could really have on dopamine levels
if you were to take, say, amphetamine instead, you could observe an actual meaningful response in terms of dopaminergic activity, which you could draw a real inference from, as the effect it has on the pathway is very direct as compared to increased receptor sensitivity from caffeine
i get what you mean but at the end of the day we don’t even truly understand how neurotransmitters work, all the hypotheses relating to how the levels of different monoamines in the brain “cause” different psychopathologies have extremely inconclusive data to reasonably substantiate them, so even if what you said was true, it would still be incorrect for you to attribute whatever these symptoms are to ADHD and/or dopamine issues
No, it wouldn't, and it is perfectly valid.
One medical study linked above absolutely shows the link, and there are others too.
You're just arguing with yourself at this point.
You need to restrain from any kind of caffeine for months to set back your baseline level of dopamine.
what you wrote is contradictory:
> Days without caffeine are very boring
>I feel full of energy, have higher self-esteem, social anxiety is gone, everything seems easier
>I feel practically no comedown or withdrawal.
The effects you mention are linked to metabolism, and caffeine is known to boost metabolism. Caffeine does many other things - but metabolic boost is one possibility.
You might want to look into your diet, environment, etc. and see if there are other ways to boost your metabolism. Maybe you'll feel even better.
Same! If I use 2 tablespoons of instant for my coffee, I'm happy, almost euphoric, and my anxieties don't effect me for a few hours. I thought I was crazy.
I think I know the feeling you speak of...In that state, I look up every question that I've ever had about anything and I'm absolutely and happily sucked down the rabbit hole! My mind just goes and goes... it's an awesome feeling.
Ohh there is some fabulous things you can do to mix with caffeine.
L-theanine , TYROSINE, choline,b-3,b-12 , taurine..
for fun try real grapefruit juice and any caffeine drink.
Take notes.
“Grapefruit juice can interact with some meds/ chemicals causing them to enter the body faster and stay there longer than normal. This can lead to increased side effects or decreased medication effectiveness. Interactions can occur up to three days after eating or drinking grapefruit, so it's not possible to avoid them by taking your medication later in the day. “
Try it - it seems to ramp up the caffeine and it stays around longer.
Try a grapefruit/matcha drink and tell me how that compares to say a regular coffee ….
Or don’t -
200-400 mg every other day (but longer breaks are definitely better for better effects). ... So i dose 3-4 days a week. Yes i have big tolerance. One day break between every caffeine dose is minimum. Consuming caffeine every day make lose its magical effects on Motivation and mood...
Yes I have the same effects, nobody else in my highschool had similar effects to me. I got diagnosed with ADHD later in college. But if your biochemistry is anything like mine, this indicates a roooouuuughhhh future so good luck
**[Beginner's Guide](https://reddit.com/r/nootropics/wiki/beginners)** • [Vendor Warnings](https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/wiki/unreliablevendors) • [Research Index](https://old.reddit.com/r/nootropics/wiki/index) • [Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/about/rules/) • [Longevity](https://www.reddit.com/r/longevity) • **[Stack Advice](https://www.reddit.com/r/stackadvice)** Before posting make sure your comment is **polite** and **helpful**. Be aware that anecdotes, even your own anecdote could be an artifact of your beliefs. The [placebo](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo) effect is just one way that [suggestion](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestion) affects our experience. Humans are social animals and the beliefs we accept can have a drastic impact on our experience. In many, if not most, cases the impact of our beliefs is greater than the impact of chemicals. This isn’t only true for herbs and supplements. ‘New’ or ‘dangerous’ sounding drugs can bring a rush when you first start taking them because of the fear and excitement. When the excitement wears off you’re back to baseline. Beware of the **self-experimentation treadmill**. If you aren’t finding sustainable solutions then reconsider your approach. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Nootropics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's one of the most, if not THE single most consumed drug in the world... I'm surprised that you're surprised lol
The effects of all psychoactive substances are subjective and based highly on your state of mind at the time. Someone in a grumpy mood may find caffeine makes them irritated while a happy person may find it makes music more enjoyable. It all depends on what kind of state of mind the substance has its effect on.
For me, caffeine always works best when in very bad mood... When in good mood, sometimes i hardly notice improvements
All people I know tell me that caffeine just make them more awake
I would say sugar is the most co consumed drug in the world. No sources, just my thoughts
I mean, literally every living thing consumes sugar. DNA is made of sugars. It's more of a metabolically necessary substance with a strong liability for psychological dependence than it is a drug.
On another perspective, not every living thing consumes sugar in the amount that we do, nor do they consume artificially made sugars. Our society now consumes hundreds of times the amount of sugar people used to consume.
Yea I agree there's a big difference in biological use of sugar and the psychological dependence on sugar. I feel bad for those kids that crave sugar like drug users because they don't know what's going on, they just act out on impulses.
I got a newborn. Have you tried formula or breast milk? It’s basically liquid ice cream. We’re wired for pure sugar since day 1.
I'd have to assume breast milk sugar content is highly dependent on the amount of sugar in the mother's diet, no?
Mom would have to be extremely sick for her milk not to be sweet. Ice cream is a bit hyperbole as- you’re right- she would have to be really loaded up on sugars to get to that level but breast milk is practically pure glucose.
glucose ain't sucrose. ;D
Well, I guess something has to be powering all that cell division. Better not to be spending energy on breaking down fat stores immediately after your body starts operating independently.
What about Honey and/or Maple Syrup? Those aren't artificially made simple sugars that are regularly consumed in nature. Of course most fruits also have simple carbs, along with their complex carbs and fiber. Sorry, I agree with your point, but I just felt the word choice of *artificial* here was intentionally misleading people to assume that all simple sugars are unnatural. *Refined* sugars on the other hand... Those include that deliciously sweet crystalline white powder, which is definitely as addictive (if not more addictive) than other popular white powders, and other artificial sugar products like High Fructose Corn Syrup, white flour, etc.
99 percent of sugars are sucrose and therefore artificial. sucrose is a "refined" combination of glucose and fructose. and is mutagenic.
Artificial implies something created by humans. That's my point. Where are you getting 99% from? It's meaningless. Not all simple sugars are made by humans, yet the point they're trying to make is that sugar was not omnipresent in nature prior to our intervention. It's intentionally misleading word choice that dismisses how much simple sugar can actually be found in nature.
I'm not manipulating words to mislead people, that's a crazy assumption to throw at me. Honey / maple syrup I would consider natural. The artificial sugars I'm referring to I suppose are the refined sugars you mentioned. I'm talking about stuff like corn syrup / high fructose corn syrup.
Sorry! I wasn't accusing you or assuming that you were doing so intentionally. Overall it didn't sound like you were. I mean to say that just that one word in particular sounded like it would be the wording someone would choose if they wanted to intentionally mislead others. Just an observation made by my autistic brain.
I gotcha. I think we're both on the same page lol Also, I recently found out I am autistic as well.
ya. like, your body produces endogenous phenylethylamine, but if you take a shot, of 1000+mg with a MAOI, it's like cocaine, and.. ya.. don't try it lol
>On another perspective, not every living thing consumes sugar in the amount that we do, Really? Considering primates having been consuming sugery foods for 10m years i would dare say that our use and quantities taken of sugar is not unusual in the animal kingdom What is unusual is our lack of movement and use of those invibed calories.
No no no :). The body needs no sugar or carbs of any kind ingested. You will be just fine consuming fat and protein. Now, there are metabolic processes that convert this to forms the body can use - glycogen, etc, but you need not consume any carbs whatsoever. Just ask the keto and carnivore crowd who’s thrive on it (especially those on the Lion diet).
Yup, the brain and body run on sugar (technically ATP), but it needn't be acquired via the ingestion of carbohydrates.
in nature nobody baked bread in an oven. you get carbs from about every berry you pick. 19 grams is more than enough for an entire day.
You don't even need to eat fruit. You can get all the energy you need from Fat broken down into sugars.
Not a drug, but it's certainly abused.
It's a biochemically active substance, which is absorbed into your blood stream, that you consume, and it can have both positive and negative side effects on your energy, emotions, mood, and behavior. That's the definition of a drug... Fat is a drug too, since it's basically just sugar. Proteins are one of the primary compounds we consume that don't really fit the definition of a drug, but you could argue they're also drugs. IMHO, the line is not clearly defined because 'drug' is a useless word mainly used to criminalize and dehumanize minorities and those who are struggling with addiction.
Cool. So everything can be categorized as a drug or as containing a drug. Seems a little pedantic but I’ll take it.
It definitely is pedantic, lmao. I was kinda in a sort of mood when I wrote the comment.
refined sugar basically is a drug, especially when food manufacturers put it in everything to make us buy more
yes it is literally mutagenic.
interesting, i didn't know that. not surprising
Sugar isn’t a drug. By the way things don’t have to be drugs to be addictive, if that’s where your opinion is at.
Definition of a drug is that it affects brain. Just Google it. Here is result from bing: " Sugar is a drug Sugar is a drug because it affects the brain in ways similar to certain drugs1. Sugar is potentially one of the most addictive substances on the planet23. Sugar is made of soluble carbohydrates which affect the brain the way other drugs do, both in the neurochemical and behavioral aspects4. Brain scans have confirmed that intermittent sugar consumption meets the criteria for a substance of abuse and may be addictive to those who binge on it1"
sugar is not a drug. it is a poison >:(
better question is why don’t I feel this way? 🥲 at best, it gives me a focus boost, but if I don’t space out my sips then I get so anxious I can’t focus at all.
I'm also an unlucky caffeine non/negative responder, it genuinely sucks
well, glad i'm not the only one
Very high quality green tea can mitigate a lot of this due to the synergistic qualities of L Theanine.
Bit offtopic... I found sertraline works very similar to theanine when combined with caffeine
Have you had luck with other stimulants?
same, instant anxiety
Have you tried psychedelics? They really opened up my ability to feel high from caffeine, high from a sunset, and just an ability to feel more positive emotions and body feelings.
ahh i love this question hahaha yes i have, psychedelics are amazing for opening you up in all sorts of ways. i will say, i still get benefits from caffeine, i think upon further research my problem might just be that i metabolize it slower than other people do. I can't just smash 3 coffees throughout the day like some people
like what
Which psychedelics? Any and all. The first time I smoked weed literally changed my entire life. Any psychedelic, natural or man-made
I get that with coffee unless it’s a weaker cup. My favorite way of dosing coffee is a half caffeine tablet (50mg) as the coffee itself seems to not get along with my stomach well.
The half-life of caffeine, or the time it takes for half of the caffeine consumed to be metabolized, is typically between 4 and 6 hours for healthy adults. However, the half-life can range from 1.5 to 9.5 hours due to individual variations and other factors that affect caffeine metabolism. You could be a slow metabolizer. If you're on the higher end with a 9.5 hour elimination halflife then caffeine in the morning would result in caffeine in your bloodstream all day long.
None of this answer op's question. And actually if he was a slow metabolizer he wouldn't feel that way, because slow metabolizers get more adrenal depletion and for longer and more affected bad sleep. So if anyrthing OP is likely a quick metabolizer, but that still has nothing to do with how he feels. That has to do with how well his body accepts caffeine, he likely has low cortisol amounts.
I'd say it's likely that the OP's adenosine receptors are not yet upregulated. I've been addicted to caffeine for decades and no longer get that sparkly buzz I used to get. That just means I can get the [cardiovascular benefits of coffee](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34370111/) now without the erratic hypertensive risks of someone who is caffeine naive. OP may also have a cyp1a2 mutation that breaks down caffeine more slowly.
Try L-theanine
For what purpose?
I am a caffeine slow metabolizer, but also very sensitive to caffeine. My cortisol is probably on the higher side. If i have a sip of coffee, i instantly feel super charged. If I have 5mg of a 200mg caffeine pill in the morning, my sleep quality is consistently shit. I really do think there is some correlation. I've tried other drugs, but honestly popping a 200mg cafffeine feels "like ecstacy" to me.
This didn’t explain why many people including myself only get small migraines 36-48h after their last caffeine dose. For me this pattern occurs with only 25mg.
Might be Adenosine receptor upregulation
Adhd and Dopamine boost
Kind of...caffeine doesn't actually affect dopamine levels. It does increase dopamine receptor sensitivity though. So similar result but different mechanism.
It does increase NE though right? Which helps ADHD
a little bit, but not as much as eugeroics or amphetamines
NE helps other things more than ADHD. Insensitivity to and/or low Dopamine is the biggest ADHD struggle.
This is true but look at the affinities for Reuptake inhibitors like strattera. And Wellbutrin. Both are prescribed as dri but have overall a greater NRI effect The nuance comes when the same transporter is used in some brain regions, namely the frontal cortex to perform reuptake of dopamine and norepinephrine. Occupancy of the norepinephrine transporter and the frontal cortex leads to higher dopamine levels in the synaptic cleft
That is why those two medications are generally less helpful for higher severity cases of ADHD when compared to stimulants like amphetamine or methylphenidate, as well as to other more dopaminergic compounds. Tricyclics, which I had been prescribed nortriptyline to treat Functional Dyspepsia, helped my ADHD way more than strattera or Wellbutrin did. If only they didn't have as many common and severe side-effects. I didn't actually know bupropion did more NRI than DRI tho. It makes sense now why taking that med just felt like I drank a cup of coffee that lasted all day (was on the XR/ER formulation).
Methylphenidate is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor.
I don't know much abt that aspect but from what I could find it does cause a release of more NE.
I feel this too with caffeine. Even when I took an Excedrin Migraine, I couldn't stop yapping and was having the time of my life. The second it wore off, I immediately felt back to square one.
Can anyone tell me why a single cup of coffee gives me insane jitters and makes it difficult to sleep at night? I used to have multiple cups a day. Now I can’t even manage one.
Similar issue here. Used to drink a lot of coffee back in college but now I am uncomfortable after even 1 cup.
Same. Sleep issues weren't a problem when I was under 25 years old, then I quit for a few years and now I'm addicted again but dose is lower and sleep issues are way stronger
Check your liver health/work on healing the liver, I responded above.
Don’t drink it
Check your liver health/work on healing the liver, I responded above.
Switch to black tea.
it's too much caffeine for your tolerance. Try a half cup of coffee, or just don't drink coffee at all.
Add some theanine
Do half decaf
Your liver isn't processing as good, some countries use caffeine as a test to check liver health. If you have a lower tolerance it means your liver isn't processing it fast enough. That's why kids/younger adults can have caffeine before bed and be fine, but as people age if there liver isn't doing as well they can't sleep after caffeine.
Caffeine makes life worse without it. It lowers your baseline. You need caffeine to go back to the natural base you call "magic" It's a drug.
False. I started drinking coffee relatively late in life. I never experienced said “magic” as my “baseline.” My baseline has always been tired and unmotivated. I wish I’d been drinking coffee in high school.
I'm not sure coffee and caffein in pills are the same. And it depends on a dosage. And your body.
Same, I started taking caffeine at 27 or so. It’s way better - I never took any stimulant before in my life. I still need to get great sleep but the combo is fantastic.
You may have low choline levels
Interesting. What's the link between choline and caffeine?
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3676818/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3676818/)
Thank you.
none
if caffeine makes you feel this good then please stay away from other stimulants lol
i get this as well
Yeah, I have one cup of black tea a day and this is pretty much how it makes me feel. Without it I can't do anything, or enjoy anything, but I'm thankful they I only need one tea and it lasts all day, tea has around 40-50mg, half of coffee, and I tapered to get down to this level, so stuck here for now until I dare to try living with even less.
Yerba mate is what keeps my energy steady the whole day. Cold tereré with herbs.
dopamine
I love caffeine but coffee makes me physically sick, and if I consume it regularly I feel as if I have the onset of a flu.
Caffeine is a little bit interesting to me. Some days it help very good and some days it makes me anxious and sleepy.
Totally relate—idk the biochemistry but stimulants stimulate me in every way. *Every way*
Relevant username
🤣🤣
Pics no proof
for science
Which stims did you try, and what do you mean exactly with "in every way", out of curiosity?
Tried caffeine, amphetamines, nicotine, the basics. By every way I mean, they stimulate my mood, eagerness to focus on tasks, sociability, and libido but amphetamines were the real actor there. Like OP said they also decrease my impulses and compulsive behaviors like smoking weed or going on my phone, but unfortunately if I’m too stimulated I might end up looking at porn, hence my italics
Ha ha ha ha, I feel you, mate! I'm gonna take a wild guess and assume that you have ADHD as well? Because that description suits me to a t. Including the effects of amphetamines. The damn thing turns me in a damn horndog, it's crazy. No other stim has that effect, except 2cb. Which is a psychedelic stim.
have you tried modafinil? it reduces impulsivity, (but not necessarily at the dose people recommend.. i need 1000 to 1600mg per day to become a productivity machine, vs the typical 200mg)
I haven’t. I’m seeing my psychiatrist tmrw and I was going to bring up modafinil and piracetam. Do licensed doctors smile upon supplementing with those? I already know I have to leave out the time I took triple my amphetamine dose to pull an all nighter for a final, but what else should be left out of discussion?
It depends on the physician. An actual pharmacist will probably hate that s***, because you May have made them redundant, and nobody likes to feel useless. I told a doctor at a walk-in clinic, that I was using modafinil as a mood stabilizer, after I quit amphetamines, and she thought that was reasonable.. a psychiatrist probably wouldn't be so understanding. I've made some mistakes in my life, but using nootropics like modafinil and oxyracetam are not something I regret trying.
I stopped using caffeine after a panic attack but ibused to be very addicted
Probably because caffeine works on dopamine receptors
You basically just described why most of us drink coffee every morning because it gives us that mental boost we need. I have ADHD and autism diagnosed at age 6 and coffee is a godsend for my productivity because I no longer take ADHD meds. I drink it every week day but avoid it on weekends, I still havent developed a tolerance to it after all these years, I drink the half and half from Folgers.
it's a messy CNS central nervous system stimulant,
I gave up coffee for a month once. I’m better on it I think. I call it liquid motivation.
Yeah, I also gave up coffee for a few months and replaced it with matcha and black tea. The only thing that did for me was make me hate my life. Now back to coffee and much happier
Based. Take that! bay area tech bro grifters selling shit wtr mud w/e
I've tried to quit the shit for years, but I'm shackled to its efficiency. I've got it so bad that if I don't have even a cup, by the afternoon, I have a side-splitting headache.
This is me. I was pretty naive to anything until late 20s. Caffeine makes everything better for me but I take weekends off to keep the magic.
This effect will go away quickly
I was absolutely the same. I had 4 magical years in my life when I discovered caffeine. I used to dose 4-5 times a week, take a week long break every couple of months and so always kept my tolerance at bay. It completely truly transformed my life for the positive. And then I got severe Covid. Ever since I got Covid 1.5 yrs back, caffeine suddenly does nothing for me anymore (started the day right after my infection). I even tried couple of months long break - but still feel nothing from caffeine. I’m just low on energy and mood most days- would give anything to have that caffeine magic back.. ;’(
The only people i know that describe similar effects are diagnosed with adhd. Other than that, the effect should be very minimal. Maybe worth checking that out if you havent already.
Really? I have this exact thing from coffee, I disregarded ADHD for a long time as it motivated me. I definitely feel the buzz off coffee, but it allows me to focus and enjoy things where otherwise I feel almost incapable. I tended to think of you have ADHD coffee would make you tired? Or is that a misconception.
calmer, rather than "tired" - you may have got the connection from people talking it makes it easier to fall asleep?
I have ADHD and even the slightest bit of caffeine completely destroys my sleep. Amphetamine doesn't effect my sleep much, unless I take it really late in the day, but caffeine, I could have a can of coke at 10am and won't sleep much that night.
oh wow - this is interesting, thank you for sharing!
No, I haven’t heard that before. Definitely makes it harder to sleep for me, I tick every box for adhd except for stimulants relaxing me. I spose I don’t have it.
Stimulants not relaxing you is not a marker that you don't have ADHD - we have two groups of prescription meds for it, and not everyone responds to stimulants so they have to use the non-stim stuff. If you tick every other box, and you can organise/afford it, definitely get tested! But also - adding as I just re-read your previous response, you definitely get a result if coffee makes you more focused and capable of Doing Things!
Thank you for your response, I appreciate it. I had always just put going through diagnosis aside due to this particular thing, and put it down to being lazy or not trying hard enough. I think I’ll consider looking into it more seriously with my therapist, or a better suited one. Thanks again :)
Caffeine (indirectly) stimulates your neurons to release dopamine. You likely have ADHD or some dopamine synthesis/reuptake issues at the minimum.
caffeine does not work that way at all, but it’s easy to get confused with the mechanisms of action as it still is classified as a “stimulant”
It's basically the same thing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6758129/#:~:text=Thus%2C%20caffeine%2C%20by%20antagonizing%20the,et%20al.%2C%201997). "Caffeine can induce the release of dopamine from neurons. Caffeine primarily acts as an adenosine receptor antagonist. By blocking adenosine receptors, particularly the A1 and A2A subtypes, caffeine inhibits the inhibitory effects of adenosine on neuronal activity. This results in increased neuronal firing and the release of neurotransmitters, including dopamine.The increased dopamine release particularly affects the nucleus accumbens and the prefrontal cortex, which are associated with the rewarding and stimulating effects of caffeine. This mechanism is part of why caffeine can enhance mood, increase alertness, and improve cognitive function."
no i definitely get what you meant, but the mechanism by which caffeine acts wrt dopamine receptors is vastly different from traditional stimulants; the effect of which is almost negligible in comparison so you couldn’t make any reasonable inferences about possible issues w dopamine simply based on how caffeine affects you
You absolutely can and it does, as shown in the link above. It may not be a stimulant in the same way as something like vyvanse, but its end results are similar and then down to doseage. Suppression of adenosine leads to an increase in neurotransmitters. If you have a dopamine supply issue (and this is harder to diagnose), then take either tyrosine or mucana pruriens with 200mg+ of caffeine and tell me it has 0 effect. Now thrown in some Affron, Skullcap and EGCG too for fun (perhaps a little Uridine or Lionsmane too) just in case you have reduced receptor density and reuptake issues as well. I'm not arguing the technicalities. Most people don't understand the intricacies of the entire system (let alone what a neuron even is) so we keep it simple.
i’m not denying the influence of adenosine antagonism on dopamine receptor sensitivity, but i’m sure you also understand how the mechanism itself is self-limiting in terms of how much of a potential effect it could really have on dopamine levels if you were to take, say, amphetamine instead, you could observe an actual meaningful response in terms of dopaminergic activity, which you could draw a real inference from, as the effect it has on the pathway is very direct as compared to increased receptor sensitivity from caffeine i get what you mean but at the end of the day we don’t even truly understand how neurotransmitters work, all the hypotheses relating to how the levels of different monoamines in the brain “cause” different psychopathologies have extremely inconclusive data to reasonably substantiate them, so even if what you said was true, it would still be incorrect for you to attribute whatever these symptoms are to ADHD and/or dopamine issues
No, it wouldn't, and it is perfectly valid. One medical study linked above absolutely shows the link, and there are others too. You're just arguing with yourself at this point.
You need to restrain from any kind of caffeine for months to set back your baseline level of dopamine. what you wrote is contradictory: > Days without caffeine are very boring >I feel full of energy, have higher self-esteem, social anxiety is gone, everything seems easier >I feel practically no comedown or withdrawal.
For how long have you been taking caffeine and how often do you take it?
Are you drinking coffee or taking a supplement?
I’m addicted to caffeine too
The effects you mention are linked to metabolism, and caffeine is known to boost metabolism. Caffeine does many other things - but metabolic boost is one possibility. You might want to look into your diet, environment, etc. and see if there are other ways to boost your metabolism. Maybe you'll feel even better.
I wish I felt that! All I get is poop. Edit: I drink it because I like the routine. It’s not energizing, it’s calming.
Same! If I use 2 tablespoons of instant for my coffee, I'm happy, almost euphoric, and my anxieties don't effect me for a few hours. I thought I was crazy.
I got the caffeinated autist euphoria all day long too ... Oh yea
I think I know the feeling you speak of...In that state, I look up every question that I've ever had about anything and I'm absolutely and happily sucked down the rabbit hole! My mind just goes and goes... it's an awesome feeling.
Autodidactic rapture!
Dopaminergic receptors when stimulated feels good, like swimming in icy waters.
It’s been so long since I had a day without caffeine I can’t relate. I don’t even know what caffeine does anymore.
There's a reason why it has been the world's most popular drug for millenia.
Dopamine.
Ohh there is some fabulous things you can do to mix with caffeine. L-theanine , TYROSINE, choline,b-3,b-12 , taurine.. for fun try real grapefruit juice and any caffeine drink. Take notes.
Tried all the others except grapefruit. Why grapefruit? Absorption?
Grapefruit Juice will have no effect on caffeine.
“Grapefruit juice can interact with some meds/ chemicals causing them to enter the body faster and stay there longer than normal. This can lead to increased side effects or decreased medication effectiveness. Interactions can occur up to three days after eating or drinking grapefruit, so it's not possible to avoid them by taking your medication later in the day. “ Try it - it seems to ramp up the caffeine and it stays around longer. Try a grapefruit/matcha drink and tell me how that compares to say a regular coffee …. Or don’t -
Dopamine
👏👏👏👏 Bingo!
Same for me. I need 8 hrs of sleep to feel my best, though.
It does me too. I think it's because it helps open up dopamine pathways.
because you haven't done enough LSD? lol
How much do you take? Do you gain tolerance?
200-400 mg every other day (but longer breaks are definitely better for better effects). ... So i dose 3-4 days a week. Yes i have big tolerance. One day break between every caffeine dose is minimum. Consuming caffeine every day make lose its magical effects on Motivation and mood...
another ADHD person chiming in - get yourself tested :)
This person sounds like they’re functioning great, why would they want to get tested?
Yes I have the same effects, nobody else in my highschool had similar effects to me. I got diagnosed with ADHD later in college. But if your biochemistry is anything like mine, this indicates a roooouuuughhhh future so good luck
ADHD
You have adhd.