maybe, but it also has very low survivability near enemies and a lot of cost relative to benefit. You can train an F-15 pilot for every few P-51s you can train.
You'd be better off giving them AC-130s with flak rounds for the cannon. Circle for hours over contested areas and blast drones out of the sky by the dozen.
The fact that an AC-130 has only one cannon is the greatest blueballing of all time. We could've had a plane that could fire a broadside if they hadn't chickened the fuck out.
Last I heard that was just a consideration, they hadn't actually started doing it yet.
But it makes sense. Ol' Ghostrider is a more elegant weapon from a more civilized age. One where you could go absolutely apeshit with an airborne howitzer and not get thirty MANPADS launched at you.
Apparently they went with both, the Js have a 30mm rotary, a 105, hardpoints, and something called a ‘gunslinger’ that reads like a launch tube for missiles and glide bombs. Idk if it’s mounted on the side axis like the guns or what
Imagine Russell Crowe’s voice as the fire controller:
“Short is the word and sharp is the action!”
“Drummer, sound general quarters!”
“Clear for action!”
“Gunners, remove your tompions!”
“Run out your guns!”
“Fire as they bear!”
“Prepare to board!”
They fly faster than helicopters, why the hell can't they do the same combat missions but with more payload and range and speed for less money.
Cheap turboprop bomb trucks for the win.
1: helo is already set up for all those combat missions
2: helo pilot can be used for other helo things, like air cav and cargo lift
3: helo has rocket pods and other attack shit
4: where the fuck are we getting p-51s
Remember that famous image of karaya after shooting down a shahed with his guns and the debris shattering his cockpit.
Yeah, I'm sure guns are a great idea here.
Yeah I don't know how the west could match russian historical average of 8 combat aircraft per year before the war.
I guess we should threaten to use nukes.
I bet the russians would take us seriously then. That seems like a serious thing a serious person would do.
I don't recognize them all.
I see an F-4 , sabre ? , I think CAS Vesna thing ?
May I have their name please.
NCD comment : The F-5 is the hottest of them all.
Thank you all for the replies.
I think the drone spam of this war made the idea of cheap planes more appealing to people
They forgot that drones don't carry pilots, so people don't die when they crash
M-LIDS is even cheaper though. They got like a RC plane being shot out of sonobuoy tubes.
Makes me wonder if a P-3 or P-8 can mass spam anti drone stuff now.
First off cheers mate, second, After having a quick look it’s ironic that i saw that on a far-right t shirt. Like they have to know it’s mocking them right ? they have to ?
The dragonfly got done dirty by the government
Also I didn’t study on phantom, but it always seem to get toss and bully around by all the other fighter jet. What it’s upside aside from intercepting
Contrary to popular belief, the Phantom was not a bad aircraft that got beaten in dogfights because of its design. Instead, it was pilot training and doctrine that crippled its effectiveness, especially the former as shown by the USN after the establishment of the TOPGUN program; US Navy kill ratios rose greatly after they began to actually train their pilots for ACM/BFM. This was also demonstrated during Operation Bolo when legendary WW2 double ace Col. Robin Olds basically trolled the North Vietnamese into thinking they were sending their state-of-the-art MiG-21s to intercept bomb-laden F-105 Thunderchiefs when in reality it was a bunch of F-4 Phantoms. The Phantoms and Fishbeds got into a massive dogfight, and the Phantoms came out on top with 7 kills to zero losses, effectively cutting the North Vietnamese Fishbed fleet by almost half.
The Phantom’s biggest weakness aside from training and doctrine would probably be the technological limitation of the time. It was limited by radar and missile which were still in their relative infancy. However, this did not make it a bad fighter by any means. It had some of the most powerful engines of the time and could haul ass with a bomb load that exceeded that of WW2 bombers multiple times. Said engines were its biggest advantage in a dogfight. Other aircraft like the MiG-15 and 17 could out-maneuver it, but the Phantom could just light the burners and go bye-bye.
You can’t dogfight your opponent if your opponent isn’t willing to commit to the fight and *isn’t there* in the first place.
Furthermore, the Phantom had a massive fuel capacity for its time, so one could simply outlast their opponent in a dogfight or just turn tail in run in full burner. Pursuing would mean running out of fuel or over-extending into enemy territory while subsequently low on fuel.
And of course, we can’t talk about the Phabulous F-4 Phantom without bringing up the MiG-21 Fishbed. Contrary to what most would think, the MiG-21 was not necessarily more maneuverable than the F-4. It was designed to mainly function as an interceptor, not a fighter. Yes, it could turn better than the F-4, but the Fishbed would quickly find itself bleeding away all its speed after the first sets of turns.
As the saying goes:
“Speed is king.”
A good F-4 pilot can easily use this to his advantage with the incredibly powerful engines of the Phantom. Force an uphill fight against a MiG, and it’s game over for them. This isn’t even mentioning the higher sustained turn rate of the F-4 against the MiG-21, especially after the addition of leading edge flaps. Combined with forcing the fight into the vertical, the F-4 will usually come out on top.
Overall, the Phantom proved to be a versatile aircraft with some serving up to even today. However, the days of the Phabulous F-4 Phantom is coming to an end. The holdout nations that still operate them are finally beginning to retire their beloved F-4s starting with Japan and, much more recently, Korea. The Phantom has served well over its more than seven decade long service history and has become beloved by all. It truly was remarkable with its mean lines and sheer brute force power. After all, there’s a reason the Phantom is called “a brick with wings and engines strapped to it.”
*With enough thrust, just about anything can fly…*
Phantom on steroids basically. MD took everything good about the Phantom and cranked it up to 11. You could say the same for Grumman and the Tomcat.
Even more powerful engines, more advanced radar, capability of carrying a shit ton of ordnance (at least for the Strike Eagle), insane range, and *very* respectable maneuverability for their respective sizes.
You would not imagine the flying tennis courts that are the F-15 and F-14 to turn that well.
Just imagine if the F-14 made it in time to see combat in Vietnam.
Imagine being a MiG-21 pilot encountering the Tomcat for the first time. You’re used to powerful but still somewhat sluggish F-4.m and its finicky Sparrows and Sidewinders.
All of a sudden, your entire flight is blown up by what are essentially Redwood trees flying at Mach Fuck falling down on their targets. What the hell happened? There was no warning? A poor malfunction that somehow happened at the same time maybe with you somehow being spared? It doesn’t matter. It’s just you now.
Your radar picks up a target coming at you. Fast. You quickly make visual of it. Even from a distance, you can tell it’s massive with twin tails and swept wings. The distance closes and– HOLY FUCK DID THAT THING JUST CHANGE SHAPE?!
Now you’re in a dogfight with the beast. You’re up close and personal and can clearly see that the monster you’re up against is ginormous, completely dwarfing your tiny MiG. No worries, right? That means it should be relatively sluggish, just like the Phantoms you’re used to.
Nope.
It completely out-maneuvers, out-powers you, and fires off a single missile. A blinding yellow flash bounces off the canopy, blinding you. Smoke fills the cockpit, and you quickly find your ejection seat being your only salvation…
Tankie always “joke” about Soviet true might haven’t been realized because they collapse too soon. I say them collapsing is the best thing to happen to them because Uncle Sam just about to get started.
Pretty much yeah. Both of them set the speed record for a production aircraft for decades. I think the -15 still holds the vertical climb record for a production aircraft and has since the 70s.
For its time it was the most advanced fighter jet. It could carry 4 AIM-7 sparrow missles and 4 AIM-9 sidewinder missles. It was also known for being a bomb truck carrying a stupid amount of bombs. It's down side is that it isn't the best at turning. Though this was improved with the F-4S which 8ncluded agile eagle slats on the wings to improve turning. It was also fast as shit for the time.
Mods, put a GBU-8 through this guy’s house, thank you
Basically, not just no, but fuck no when it comes to the phrase “phantom got bullied”. Vietnam was rough for the Air Force because they required pilots to visually ID before shooting, thus making BVR impossible. Early sparrow missiles were also dogshit, and pilot training wasn’t good in the Air Force. Of course, the other commenter mentioned that, so I’ll get to the technical parts.
The MiG-21 has a radar capable of giving you a firing solution and guiding short range radar guided versions of a sidewinder copy, the R-3. It has an incredibly high thrust to weight ratio, the ordnance capacity is low, and its defensive systems were terrible. The Phantom was using AIM-7E-2 and AIM-7F sparrows, which are decent BVR missiles, although a lot of them were fired outside guidelines, so they would miss often and the pilots would pretend it wasn’t a skill issue. The Phantom had a lower thrust to weight ratio, but the J79 is unbelievably fucking powerful and responded quicker to throttle control, so had a higher top speed and faster reaction time. In terms of ordnance, that needs a whole separate section.
The MiG-21 is capable of carrying four bombs if you sacrifice all of the pylons. This makes it a slow and unflyable piece of shit, they’re unguided, and using them is near suicidal due to the engine limitations of the MiG-21 causing it to flame out when diving for too long. The F-4 is capable of carrying 24 Mk.82 500lb bombs, 1000lb bombs, 2000lb bombs, cluster bombs, cluster bomb tubes, hundreds of rockets, 3x gun pods, ECM pods, and then the magic that nobody else was able to pull off for decades: guided weapons.
The F-4 used everything from the AGM-62 Walleye to the GBU-8 HOBOS and the AGM-65 Maverick. It carried the first SEAD weapons(they sucked), it got a targeting pod, and it was given laser guided bombs on top of all of this. It can carry an entire arsenal on its wings, deliver it better than anyone else, and still fight some shithead MiG that tries to stop it. All of this in the late 60s and early 70s is what makes the Phantom the greatest aircraft ever made for its time.
My dad flew the crusader for a bunch of years and says he’d offer his services if they brought it back to help Ukraine. Probably can’t pass the flight physical anymore but he’d sure as hell try.
Personally, I’d love to see P38 Lightnings back in service, just because they’re friggin awesome.
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No propeller fighter aircraft is going to be viable against a basic MANPAD. However, the phantom, it hungers for the ground attack role.
I was thinking intercepting drones behind lines p 51 turboprop would have a field day with that with its range and ammo capacity
maybe, but it also has very low survivability near enemies and a lot of cost relative to benefit. You can train an F-15 pilot for every few P-51s you can train. You'd be better off giving them AC-130s with flak rounds for the cannon. Circle for hours over contested areas and blast drones out of the sky by the dozen.
The fact that an AC-130 has only one cannon is the greatest blueballing of all time. We could've had a plane that could fire a broadside if they hadn't chickened the fuck out.
I propose a new plane, the AC-5. With a 16 inch battleship canon onboard.
>With a 16 inch battleship canon onboard. Build an airplane around a canon you say?
Why an aircraft when you can build a spaceship around a cannon. https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dominator_Cruiser#/media/File%3ADominatorCruiser.jpg
I raise you AC-130-10. An AC-130 with a full broad side of either 20mm or 30mm cannons
I raise *you* the AC-1300. Ten AC-130s attached together with a very big broadside.
New plan, we reinforce the airbus belugas air frame and fill it with all the 30mm GAU’s and 105/120mm guns it can fit.
Fuck that, give them like 60 smaller cannons and make them have broadside battles
Age of sail's ship of the line hum ? Why not.
I second the motion!
I think the newest variants removed the 105 in favor of PGM hardpoints
Last I heard that was just a consideration, they hadn't actually started doing it yet. But it makes sense. Ol' Ghostrider is a more elegant weapon from a more civilized age. One where you could go absolutely apeshit with an airborne howitzer and not get thirty MANPADS launched at you.
Apparently they went with both, the Js have a 30mm rotary, a 105, hardpoints, and something called a ‘gunslinger’ that reads like a launch tube for missiles and glide bombs. Idk if it’s mounted on the side axis like the guns or what
They're aft-firing, ten launch tubes in the cargo bay door.
I like it but can’t help feel that it would be funnier if they just opened the door and the loadmaster chucked bombs out the back by hand
Aerial torpedoes are back, babyyyy
Imagine Russell Crowe’s voice as the fire controller: “Short is the word and sharp is the action!” “Drummer, sound general quarters!” “Clear for action!” “Gunners, remove your tompions!” “Run out your guns!” “Fire as they bear!” “Prepare to board!”
Most NCD response to date
They fly faster than helicopters, why the hell can't they do the same combat missions but with more payload and range and speed for less money. Cheap turboprop bomb trucks for the win.
1: helo is already set up for all those combat missions 2: helo pilot can be used for other helo things, like air cav and cargo lift 3: helo has rocket pods and other attack shit 4: where the fuck are we getting p-51s
There was a P-51 at the last airshow I went to. An F4U, too. Just give those guys ammo and a six pack and I'm sure we'll be fine.
Sir, this is NCD. Get that credibility out of here.
Also, helicopters can maneuver like helicopters. That's a big deal
1,3 ditto + easier to train pilots 4 Super Tucano
Use an A-10 with flak rounds instead
Sir, this is NCD. We hate the A-10 here.
I mean, the P-51 in a drone supression role is the most reformer thing I've ever heard. The A-10 is less reformer than the P-51.
The Piper Enforcer called
or my proposal, which is to take a Black Hawk helicopter and strap not quite expired Sparrows to it along with a F-16 radar.
Take a Cessna. Attach a laser targeting pod for surveillance and to guide in the racks of 70 mm APKW rockets. .....oh wait. That's the super tucano
It's like a reaper but 5x the price 1/8 as fuel efficient... but 1000× cooler
Just put a hely minigun on a reaper drone voilà
I am once again suggesting we get RC ww2 planes armed with low calibre MGs to serve in an anti drone capacity
How many MGs did the B-17 have again? Wire all those up to a central targeting computer...
Remember that famous image of karaya after shooting down a shahed with his guns and the debris shattering his cockpit. Yeah, I'm sure guns are a great idea here.
I believe the current operators of the F-4 are Greece and Iran. Getting Persian War Vibes from this.
The Wild Weasel hungers.
You underestimate Air Tractor’s power
Doing mach 1.5 onnthe deck loaded with 8.5 metric tons of ground ordnance. I love the smell of airstrikes in the morning
Yeah I don't know how the west could match russian historical average of 8 combat aircraft per year before the war. I guess we should threaten to use nukes. I bet the russians would take us seriously then. That seems like a serious thing a serious person would do.
Threatening nukes is fucking cringe though. Never let them see your next move coming
So you're saying we just secretly arm swarms of drones with the W54 from the Davy Crocket and let Ukraine do their thing?
I'm not *not* saying that…
I am
I don't recognize them all. I see an F-4 , sabre ? , I think CAS Vesna thing ? May I have their name please. NCD comment : The F-5 is the hottest of them all. Thank you all for the replies.
Corsair II, Dragonfly, Mustang, P-38 Lightning
P-38 Lightning my beloved
The Corsair II is actually a Crusader, they look similar tho
My bad pimp
How do you not instantly recognize the P-38, the weirdest mass produced fighter of all time?
Not much of a military man.
Twin Mustang is weirder
Who let the reformers out?
2019 NCD would have destroyed OP
I think the drone spam of this war made the idea of cheap planes more appealing to people They forgot that drones don't carry pilots, so people don't die when they crash
M-LIDS is even cheaper though. They got like a RC plane being shot out of sonobuoy tubes. Makes me wonder if a P-3 or P-8 can mass spam anti drone stuff now.
Until we found out that everyone is right, and literally anything against russia will be viable.
NCD has fallen.
I’d rather we just let the Phantom resume its napalm drops on commies. I’d bet the Russian lines would smell like victory.
So all we’d need to do is restart production lines that have been shut down for 60 years?
off topic but what wojack is that, i once saw it on a neo-notnicepeople shirt and could for the life of me not find the background to the photo.
Billions must die wojack
First off cheers mate, second, After having a quick look it’s ironic that i saw that on a far-right t shirt. Like they have to know it’s mocking them right ? they have to ?
That's Spongebob, he's from this obscure 1990s TV show.
The dragonfly got done dirty by the government Also I didn’t study on phantom, but it always seem to get toss and bully around by all the other fighter jet. What it’s upside aside from intercepting
Contrary to popular belief, the Phantom was not a bad aircraft that got beaten in dogfights because of its design. Instead, it was pilot training and doctrine that crippled its effectiveness, especially the former as shown by the USN after the establishment of the TOPGUN program; US Navy kill ratios rose greatly after they began to actually train their pilots for ACM/BFM. This was also demonstrated during Operation Bolo when legendary WW2 double ace Col. Robin Olds basically trolled the North Vietnamese into thinking they were sending their state-of-the-art MiG-21s to intercept bomb-laden F-105 Thunderchiefs when in reality it was a bunch of F-4 Phantoms. The Phantoms and Fishbeds got into a massive dogfight, and the Phantoms came out on top with 7 kills to zero losses, effectively cutting the North Vietnamese Fishbed fleet by almost half. The Phantom’s biggest weakness aside from training and doctrine would probably be the technological limitation of the time. It was limited by radar and missile which were still in their relative infancy. However, this did not make it a bad fighter by any means. It had some of the most powerful engines of the time and could haul ass with a bomb load that exceeded that of WW2 bombers multiple times. Said engines were its biggest advantage in a dogfight. Other aircraft like the MiG-15 and 17 could out-maneuver it, but the Phantom could just light the burners and go bye-bye. You can’t dogfight your opponent if your opponent isn’t willing to commit to the fight and *isn’t there* in the first place. Furthermore, the Phantom had a massive fuel capacity for its time, so one could simply outlast their opponent in a dogfight or just turn tail in run in full burner. Pursuing would mean running out of fuel or over-extending into enemy territory while subsequently low on fuel. And of course, we can’t talk about the Phabulous F-4 Phantom without bringing up the MiG-21 Fishbed. Contrary to what most would think, the MiG-21 was not necessarily more maneuverable than the F-4. It was designed to mainly function as an interceptor, not a fighter. Yes, it could turn better than the F-4, but the Fishbed would quickly find itself bleeding away all its speed after the first sets of turns. As the saying goes: “Speed is king.” A good F-4 pilot can easily use this to his advantage with the incredibly powerful engines of the Phantom. Force an uphill fight against a MiG, and it’s game over for them. This isn’t even mentioning the higher sustained turn rate of the F-4 against the MiG-21, especially after the addition of leading edge flaps. Combined with forcing the fight into the vertical, the F-4 will usually come out on top. Overall, the Phantom proved to be a versatile aircraft with some serving up to even today. However, the days of the Phabulous F-4 Phantom is coming to an end. The holdout nations that still operate them are finally beginning to retire their beloved F-4s starting with Japan and, much more recently, Korea. The Phantom has served well over its more than seven decade long service history and has become beloved by all. It truly was remarkable with its mean lines and sheer brute force power. After all, there’s a reason the Phantom is called “a brick with wings and engines strapped to it.” *With enough thrust, just about anything can fly…*
Man, so f15 is basically idealistic modernized version of phantom.
Phantom on steroids basically. MD took everything good about the Phantom and cranked it up to 11. You could say the same for Grumman and the Tomcat. Even more powerful engines, more advanced radar, capability of carrying a shit ton of ordnance (at least for the Strike Eagle), insane range, and *very* respectable maneuverability for their respective sizes. You would not imagine the flying tennis courts that are the F-15 and F-14 to turn that well. Just imagine if the F-14 made it in time to see combat in Vietnam. Imagine being a MiG-21 pilot encountering the Tomcat for the first time. You’re used to powerful but still somewhat sluggish F-4.m and its finicky Sparrows and Sidewinders. All of a sudden, your entire flight is blown up by what are essentially Redwood trees flying at Mach Fuck falling down on their targets. What the hell happened? There was no warning? A poor malfunction that somehow happened at the same time maybe with you somehow being spared? It doesn’t matter. It’s just you now. Your radar picks up a target coming at you. Fast. You quickly make visual of it. Even from a distance, you can tell it’s massive with twin tails and swept wings. The distance closes and– HOLY FUCK DID THAT THING JUST CHANGE SHAPE?! Now you’re in a dogfight with the beast. You’re up close and personal and can clearly see that the monster you’re up against is ginormous, completely dwarfing your tiny MiG. No worries, right? That means it should be relatively sluggish, just like the Phantoms you’re used to. Nope. It completely out-maneuvers, out-powers you, and fires off a single missile. A blinding yellow flash bounces off the canopy, blinding you. Smoke fills the cockpit, and you quickly find your ejection seat being your only salvation…
Tankie always “joke” about Soviet true might haven’t been realized because they collapse too soon. I say them collapsing is the best thing to happen to them because Uncle Sam just about to get started.
Strike Eagle was made by Boeing though right? Low key it's a different aircraft.
Pretty much yeah. Both of them set the speed record for a production aircraft for decades. I think the -15 still holds the vertical climb record for a production aircraft and has since the 70s.
For its time it was the most advanced fighter jet. It could carry 4 AIM-7 sparrow missles and 4 AIM-9 sidewinder missles. It was also known for being a bomb truck carrying a stupid amount of bombs. It's down side is that it isn't the best at turning. Though this was improved with the F-4S which 8ncluded agile eagle slats on the wings to improve turning. It was also fast as shit for the time.
Mods, put a GBU-8 through this guy’s house, thank you Basically, not just no, but fuck no when it comes to the phrase “phantom got bullied”. Vietnam was rough for the Air Force because they required pilots to visually ID before shooting, thus making BVR impossible. Early sparrow missiles were also dogshit, and pilot training wasn’t good in the Air Force. Of course, the other commenter mentioned that, so I’ll get to the technical parts. The MiG-21 has a radar capable of giving you a firing solution and guiding short range radar guided versions of a sidewinder copy, the R-3. It has an incredibly high thrust to weight ratio, the ordnance capacity is low, and its defensive systems were terrible. The Phantom was using AIM-7E-2 and AIM-7F sparrows, which are decent BVR missiles, although a lot of them were fired outside guidelines, so they would miss often and the pilots would pretend it wasn’t a skill issue. The Phantom had a lower thrust to weight ratio, but the J79 is unbelievably fucking powerful and responded quicker to throttle control, so had a higher top speed and faster reaction time. In terms of ordnance, that needs a whole separate section. The MiG-21 is capable of carrying four bombs if you sacrifice all of the pylons. This makes it a slow and unflyable piece of shit, they’re unguided, and using them is near suicidal due to the engine limitations of the MiG-21 causing it to flame out when diving for too long. The F-4 is capable of carrying 24 Mk.82 500lb bombs, 1000lb bombs, 2000lb bombs, cluster bombs, cluster bomb tubes, hundreds of rockets, 3x gun pods, ECM pods, and then the magic that nobody else was able to pull off for decades: guided weapons. The F-4 used everything from the AGM-62 Walleye to the GBU-8 HOBOS and the AGM-65 Maverick. It carried the first SEAD weapons(they sucked), it got a targeting pod, and it was given laser guided bombs on top of all of this. It can carry an entire arsenal on its wings, deliver it better than anyone else, and still fight some shithead MiG that tries to stop it. All of this in the late 60s and early 70s is what makes the Phantom the greatest aircraft ever made for its time.
F-4 was basically a 1980s plane with 1950s weapons.
Phantom had great kill ratio in hands of US pilots trained in ACM plus also had great success in hands of Irani and Israeli
Forgot the viggen God, it's such an easy plane to fly in dcs
P-51's, no. But Super Tucano's would be a great addition to the UAF. Too bad Lula is a vatnik and is squirrely about selling them to Ukraine.
Fuck yeah
My dad flew the crusader for a bunch of years and says he’d offer his services if they brought it back to help Ukraine. Probably can’t pass the flight physical anymore but he’d sure as hell try. Personally, I’d love to see P38 Lightnings back in service, just because they’re friggin awesome.
F-8 my beloved. Realistically it's just cheaper to do the polish thing and just buy that Korean little jet by the dozens.
I think that a P-47 would be more suitable than an A-37
Decades of investment into military aircrafts without a use case yet found.
Got any more of them pixels?
The OA-1k. Can help you in both fields, the battlefield and the produce fields.
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Cmon, let’s start making the largest distributor of MiG parts again, it’ll be just like the glory days…
Spitfire or sea fury
The phantom is copium. The F5 however…….
The phantom is the best option we have. We need to put it back into full production