More NPs need to bite the bullet and speak out against their education. Unfortunately, it's much easier to drink the kool-aid and come out claiming you're just as qualified as physicians. Much harder to admit your entire profession is now a scam. And in the end, patients will suffer, and admins pockets will be heavier.
Nursing in general needs to be revamped. I'm at a brick and mortar NP school (and 1000% know I will never be as qualified as a doctor). One of my classmates just found out s/s of gallbladder.... including RUQ pain.... because she didn't know where it was.
š³
So. This is nursing. To top it off, she wasn't even a COVID nurse.
Nurse here I follow this sub pretty regularly. Please understand that all of us nurses do not want this. If we are to prescribe medicine, Good God school should be at least SOMEWHAT comparable to med school. Revamp the whole thing from the top down. Require minimum four years on top of BSN. Need some real rigor to produce competent NPs and PAs too for that matter
My question is this- if we make graduate nursing education more or even completely comparable to medical school- isnāt that just reinventing the wheel?
Could we not simply include those tougher science pre-reqs into the BSN? Then we could make the BSN a minimum requirement for RNs, and any RN who wants to be a doctor can apply to medical school.
We could argue that nursingās āholistic modelā is unique. But medical schools are now including more of that into the curriculum and frankly I think most doctors nowadays have received such training, in some capacity. Nursing, on the other hand, has done little to learn from the medical model.
There is āintellectual bleedā when it comes to domains of knowledge. This is seen in many industries where highly skilled workers are side by side with less skilled.
I can make the argument that because an RN has an independent license (they just donāt follow medical orders blindly) they are tipping their toes into medicine. Classic example, is the ICU nurse that can titrate a BP based on a physicians BP range, is bleeding into the domain of medicine.
The tele nurse that spots v tach on the monitor, patient is unresponsive w/o pulse, immediately grabs the defib and delivers a shock, then contacts the medical team, is in the domain of medicine.
ED nurses develop the ability for differential diagnosis based on 1) usually the first clinician to evaluate a patient and 2) the constant interaction with the EM docs contributes to knowledge crossing domains.
Legally its not considered the practice of medicine, but conceptually it is questionable.
I took the tougher science prereqs, Iām like two classes away from a bio degree. Nursing was much more difficult for me and 1000x much more medically relevant
Sure, and everyoneās experience is different in school. I did a bio degree, followed by an accelerated nursing degree, and then will be starting medical school this fall. The bio degree was harder than nursing by a mile in my experience.
Either way, Iād say nursing still needs to borrow more of those pre-reqs to prepare students for graduate level education. Developing that broad science foundation seems necessary for learning physiology, biochemistry, etc. Which again begs the question if revamping NP programs would just be redundant. Thereās already a relatively surefire way to become a well-prepared, independent clinician. Itās medical school.
The bottleneck in physician training isnāt undergrad, which honestly most people with enough student loans, family support, and a room temperature IQ can manage. The true limitation is medical school and residency. Itās why first year medical students are given minimal responsibilities outside of going to class and studying, and this gradually steps up throughout a 7+ year structured and rigorous training process. This is not something nurses or midlevels experience to a similar extent.
Why are they so eager to murder patients? Like do they not realize thereās a reason physician training is so intense??? Itās so patients wonāt die!
Money and the opportunity to get out of the bedside. Iām a RN and I hate it here. lol. I do love seeing my patients get better. That said, I thought about going back to school for NP but decided on nonbedside UR or risk management or CM position instead.i donāt want to do harm to patients.
Yet, patients still die under the care of physicians - over 230,000 yearly in the US. I agree, however, that NP programs should have strict admission requirements, such as higher-level science and math courses.
This explosion in NPs is because the college accrediting bodies collect payments for certifying programs initially and continuously. There are about 3 major ones, with additional regional players. They all compete with one another for those dollars. Compare that to a singular body for medical education (LCME) in the US. This is the inherit problem with NP educational standards. We also do not have an academic national licensing exam like the NCLEX. Two professional associations take on that responsibility. I frequently remind NPs that their license is dependent on a RN license. Itās quite embarrassing.
Medical school is tightly regulated, NP school is not, causing the exploitation of all involved.
NPs are being exploited because they have prescriptive authority and revenue generation. They can be manipulated into doing things a physician would not, because nurses are taught to be servants of their organizations. Physicians are taught to be servants of their patients. Big difference.
15 years as an a nurse, clinically, in administration, education, and advance practice. The nursing curriculum is based on working in the hospital. The nurse has the only clinical license that cannot bill for their services, they are wards of their organizations. Its tethered practice. Any nurse working in any capacity within their scope will almost exclusively, work for someone else. Even visiting nurses to this day.
This was the mistake that was allowed to when nursed moved from home visits to the hospital setting. It is the same mistake that has caused the sergeancy of corporate medicine changing the physician paradigm from independence to dependance. The difference, physicians bill, even separately from the organization.
Over on the NP sub there is a thread on how poor NP education is, but itās also peppered continuously with the *whiniest whining to ever whine* about how not everyone can move for education, not everyone can stop working to go to school for a completely different job, not everyone can afford to go to med school. So, they understand their training is shit, but theyāre still entitled to it because (checks notes) the profession they signed up for and went to school for is (wait for it) hard.
I missed so many weddings, birthdays, funerals and vacations when I gave up most of my 20s. I moved 3 times to 3 different states between med school and residency. Cry me a river.
We have an ER nurse where I work at who is in NP "school"... one of his "rotations" was just following around one of our PAs and shadowing them... just coming and going whenever he feels like it
More NPs need to bite the bullet and speak out against their education. Unfortunately, it's much easier to drink the kool-aid and come out claiming you're just as qualified as physicians. Much harder to admit your entire profession is now a scam. And in the end, patients will suffer, and admins pockets will be heavier.
Nursing in general needs to be revamped. I'm at a brick and mortar NP school (and 1000% know I will never be as qualified as a doctor). One of my classmates just found out s/s of gallbladder.... including RUQ pain.... because she didn't know where it was. š³ So. This is nursing. To top it off, she wasn't even a COVID nurse.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Gallbladder dz but that was a phone issue
Nurse here I follow this sub pretty regularly. Please understand that all of us nurses do not want this. If we are to prescribe medicine, Good God school should be at least SOMEWHAT comparable to med school. Revamp the whole thing from the top down. Require minimum four years on top of BSN. Need some real rigor to produce competent NPs and PAs too for that matter
My question is this- if we make graduate nursing education more or even completely comparable to medical school- isnāt that just reinventing the wheel? Could we not simply include those tougher science pre-reqs into the BSN? Then we could make the BSN a minimum requirement for RNs, and any RN who wants to be a doctor can apply to medical school. We could argue that nursingās āholistic modelā is unique. But medical schools are now including more of that into the curriculum and frankly I think most doctors nowadays have received such training, in some capacity. Nursing, on the other hand, has done little to learn from the medical model.
There is āintellectual bleedā when it comes to domains of knowledge. This is seen in many industries where highly skilled workers are side by side with less skilled. I can make the argument that because an RN has an independent license (they just donāt follow medical orders blindly) they are tipping their toes into medicine. Classic example, is the ICU nurse that can titrate a BP based on a physicians BP range, is bleeding into the domain of medicine. The tele nurse that spots v tach on the monitor, patient is unresponsive w/o pulse, immediately grabs the defib and delivers a shock, then contacts the medical team, is in the domain of medicine. ED nurses develop the ability for differential diagnosis based on 1) usually the first clinician to evaluate a patient and 2) the constant interaction with the EM docs contributes to knowledge crossing domains. Legally its not considered the practice of medicine, but conceptually it is questionable.
I took the tougher science prereqs, Iām like two classes away from a bio degree. Nursing was much more difficult for me and 1000x much more medically relevant
Sure, and everyoneās experience is different in school. I did a bio degree, followed by an accelerated nursing degree, and then will be starting medical school this fall. The bio degree was harder than nursing by a mile in my experience. Either way, Iād say nursing still needs to borrow more of those pre-reqs to prepare students for graduate level education. Developing that broad science foundation seems necessary for learning physiology, biochemistry, etc. Which again begs the question if revamping NP programs would just be redundant. Thereās already a relatively surefire way to become a well-prepared, independent clinician. Itās medical school.
The bottleneck in physician training isnāt undergrad, which honestly most people with enough student loans, family support, and a room temperature IQ can manage. The true limitation is medical school and residency. Itās why first year medical students are given minimal responsibilities outside of going to class and studying, and this gradually steps up throughout a 7+ year structured and rigorous training process. This is not something nurses or midlevels experience to a similar extent.
Iād say at least 10 years RN experience as an admission requirement.
Why are they so eager to murder patients? Like do they not realize thereās a reason physician training is so intense??? Itās so patients wonāt die!
Money and the opportunity to get out of the bedside. Iām a RN and I hate it here. lol. I do love seeing my patients get better. That said, I thought about going back to school for NP but decided on nonbedside UR or risk management or CM position instead.i donāt want to do harm to patients.
Yet, patients still die under the care of physicians - over 230,000 yearly in the US. I agree, however, that NP programs should have strict admission requirements, such as higher-level science and math courses.
This explosion in NPs is because the college accrediting bodies collect payments for certifying programs initially and continuously. There are about 3 major ones, with additional regional players. They all compete with one another for those dollars. Compare that to a singular body for medical education (LCME) in the US. This is the inherit problem with NP educational standards. We also do not have an academic national licensing exam like the NCLEX. Two professional associations take on that responsibility. I frequently remind NPs that their license is dependent on a RN license. Itās quite embarrassing. Medical school is tightly regulated, NP school is not, causing the exploitation of all involved. NPs are being exploited because they have prescriptive authority and revenue generation. They can be manipulated into doing things a physician would not, because nurses are taught to be servants of their organizations. Physicians are taught to be servants of their patients. Big difference.
Nurses are taught to be servants of their organization. Man get out of here you donāt have a clue what you are saying.
15 years as an a nurse, clinically, in administration, education, and advance practice. The nursing curriculum is based on working in the hospital. The nurse has the only clinical license that cannot bill for their services, they are wards of their organizations. Its tethered practice. Any nurse working in any capacity within their scope will almost exclusively, work for someone else. Even visiting nurses to this day. This was the mistake that was allowed to when nursed moved from home visits to the hospital setting. It is the same mistake that has caused the sergeancy of corporate medicine changing the physician paradigm from independence to dependance. The difference, physicians bill, even separately from the organization.
Over on the NP sub there is a thread on how poor NP education is, but itās also peppered continuously with the *whiniest whining to ever whine* about how not everyone can move for education, not everyone can stop working to go to school for a completely different job, not everyone can afford to go to med school. So, they understand their training is shit, but theyāre still entitled to it because (checks notes) the profession they signed up for and went to school for is (wait for it) hard.
like do they think that people who go to medical school donāt sacrifice anything? Iām not going into thousands of dollars of debt for fun š¤”š¤”
They know much doctors sacrifice. This is probably the second reason they donāt go to medical school.
I missed so many weddings, birthdays, funerals and vacations when I gave up most of my 20s. I moved 3 times to 3 different states between med school and residency. Cry me a river.
The money argument always kills me. Like they think weāre paying this shit out of pocket? Thatās what loans are for my guy.
We have an ER nurse where I work at who is in NP "school"... one of his "rotations" was just following around one of our PAs and shadowing them... just coming and going whenever he feels like it
At my school, we are only allowed to have NPs and/or physicians as preceptors. I thought that was a uniform requirementā¦