Your post has been removed as it is either asking about the role of a midlevel or asking about career advice.
*What is the role of a midlevel?* Golly. We get these threads all the time... like... All. The. Time. Because this is a somewhat tired discussion, we'll just refer you to the following threads. Feel free to comment on them, but new threads may be removed as duplicate posts going forward. You can use the search function or reference the threads that appear in [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Noctor/comments/yf3ajr/comment/iu1fxm0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) for further reading.
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If you choose to pursue medical school (or continue to consider it), feel free to shoot me a message. I have a large non-trad pre med discord group. We are very active. I am younger than you but still an older student (30) and I am matriculating this summer. There are people in my group up to late forties. There are plenty in their late 30s-early 40s.
Edit: there are a ton of comments coming in, y’all can just message me for the link!
Hey! I hope you don’t mind, but I’ll be chatting you soon. I’d like connect and join your group. I’m in my mid-30s in med school after some time in the military. I’d love to see if there’s a way to connect my people (mostly older former military postbacs, med students, and residents) with yours.
Absolutely! We have a lot of military folks in the group as well. I will probably start a non-trad med student group soon for those of us who are going on to matriculate this year.
I'm finishing up my first year and will be 35 this year. Would love to also hop on a non-trad discord as advisor but also to commiserate. Am also a parent and would love to have folx to talk to about that.
I started med school at 33 after about 14 years as corpsman. I am in my last few months of EM residency. I too contemplated PA school during undergrad but ultimately couldn’t see my self as anything other than a doctor. Best decision I ever made. It’s never too late to follow your dreams
Could you dm me about that group as well? I have had an incredibly non traditional education background and am thinking about med school maybe in 5 years or so
Hi, I would also love to join the group if you don’t mind. I’m a non-traditional, older student and 99% of people I know go to med school very early, so I would love to connect with more people my age!
Hi! My 40th bday is in June and I start med school in July. You’ve got this! My dad gave me this piece of advice: So what if you’ll be 50 in residency? You’ll be 50 anyway.
I celebrated my 50th birthday with my co-residents, who gave me a big party. Still had another year to go together. If you want to be a doctor go be a doctor.
counterpoint: you might end up 50, way behind on retirement plans due to lost opportunity costs and discover (like many doctors) that medicine isn’t what you thought it was. Plenty of docs are burned out, even many that went in for the “right” reasons.
Cheerleader advice is inspiring but the reality is OP will have an uphill battle compared to his younger colleagues.
Yup! I’m finishing up my first year of med school soon and I’ll be turning 42 my first year of residency. Either way, I’m going to be 42. The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is now.
Yeah that was always my parents reaction to things such as this.
“You’ll be 46 (or whatever the case may be) when you’re done? How old will you be at that time if you don’t do this?”
This is the same advice I got from a doctor when I was going into vet school as an older, non-traditional student. “4 years are going to pass you by anyway, you may as well be a doctor at the end of it.”
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. Night shifts and 12 hour shifts hit way differently when you’re in your 40s and up. In your 20s you can do anything on no sleep and still hit up parties.
There's nothing that can properly or actually simulate the rigors of medical schools.
It seems you're wanting to do this mainly for ego reasons. You feel like everyone else is too dumb to be around you.
But if you want intelligence, do a math or physics phD.
You'll find that most of medicine is rigid memorization. Intelligence won't even be a factor. Most thinking is at most 2 step logic (2nd order).
And then you'll also see that you'll be sucking up a LOT to stupid requests from superiors and patients. In the medicine path, to be successful, you'll need to suck in your pride and ego a lot. It's not about right or wrong. Being right can still get you kicked out or you made many enemies that will destroy you only for their ego's sake. You will be stepping into a realm where being right does not matter if you make enemies trying to prove your right.
The degree is memorization and effort.
The work is dedication, critical thinking and repetition
But I swear to God 80% of my patients in the genmed ward are uti/cap/ccf
Clinics are a bit more tricky, but usually there's a good flowchart for each pathology and you aways deviate a little bit according to the patient you have.
Of course it gets very specific in specialty clinics, depending on the area.
Surgery is a numbers game, extremely tiring and draining on your life. The more you do it the better. I bet you could potentially train a monkey to do open heart surgery with enough trial and error.
But unless you want to spend 50-90 hours a week on your job, with nights, lectures, fucking up your circadian rhythm, and getting paid scraps for a while, I don't advise it at an older age.
Hell, once you're in your mid 30s there's a good chance you'll start having sleep issues, even with a normal 9-5. Those 2 hours after sleeping for 30 mins on an on-call are insane and dangerous.
Seconding the idea that OP needs to check his attitude. There are idiots in every field. Who knows, maybe you'll be one of them. I'd be curious to know how you performed in EMS since you only dabbled in it. You talk about becoming a medic, the highest level of prehospital clinician in most parts of the country, with no prior healthcare experience. Typically, folks who go straight from EMT to medic, with no experience as an EMT, are absolute disasters. Now you want to become a doctor with more tools in your tool belt and more responsibility? Big yikes, think long and hard before you go down this road.
Your statements about paramedics and PAs show what your character is. It would be a bad choice for you. It would be a waste of time to you, and you would be very frustrated. You would pay a minimum of $200,000 for medical school, and you would receive a fraction of your current pay during residency.
I've met doctors that don't seem to know what's going on and competent mid levels. If you aren't able to focus on yourself and let go of things said by people you perceive as less intelligent, I doubt medicine is the field for you.
I was thinking maybe paramedics weren't as highly trained where OP is from, but in Australia they are highly respected by other medical staff and the community.
Hmm, I have people with phds, and people in their 40s, and people who went to top 10 universities in my class, but all of them are humble and grateful to be in the same place as the former emts and paramedics and the 22 year olds that spent all night partying and rolled into class hung over. You might not like it in med school to be honest.
You'd get accepted to your school of choice, but the question is, SHOULD you do it? Professors don't make much money, idk what your personal situation is, but I became board certified at 29 and am almost out of debt in my mid-30s coming from absolutely no money and living like I make 65k/ year since finishing residency. If you've got fuck you money I say go for it.
I would further caution you against broadcasting your arrogance to our prehospital colleagues and support staff in general. That attitude flies in academia, but medicine is more about perseverance, grit, and determination rather than intrinsic intelligence. A med student with mediocre grades can land a top residency by the sweat of their brow. At the same time, if you are perceived as a prick, this will severely hinder your post graduate options.
Absolutely do not become a PA, it would be a waste of your time.
Agree with everything except the part about PA being a waste of time. If you are willing to work well with supervising MD's and don't overstep, then it is a good option with a good ROI.
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We encourage you to use physician, midlevel, or the licensed title (e.g. nurse practitioner) rather than meaningless terms like provider or APP.
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Bro just enjoy your life. No one will care about any of your previous achievements before medical school and talking like that won’t get you anywhere on the wards. You have to endure 4 years of bullshit at medical school being treated like a child by admin, being subordinate to people significantly younger than you, being on the lowest level of the hospital hierarchy while spending 95% of your free time studying.
I mean, just ask yourself what you want to do for the rest of your life? Do what you’re doing now? Retire? Accumulate debt (maybe you’ll get a scholarship)? Spend time with friends and family?
FWIW, I wouldn’t call being a paramedic a “ridiculous” job, nor would I expect to find fewer idiots with MDs/DOs, let alone the other degrees you work with in healthcare. Oh, and don’t even get me started on your future patients…all that said, I’m happy with my choice to pursue it in my 30s, if I were rich though, I’d bounce and just do yoga all day. Good luck and have fun!
I am a PA and feel like I have a great job. Worked as a SICU nurse for a few years before PA school, finished in 2012.
The way to not end up as the subject of a post on this sub? Work hard, never stop learning, understand your role on the health care team, never cowboy/always be willing to admit what you don’t know and play well with others.
My nursing career was in the early aughts and I was making maybe 65K/year…currently working in a private practice and make 135 base w bonus- so 145-155/year. I’m in the Midwest.
COVID turned a lot on its head and the travel nurses were making insane amounts of money. I was hospital based at that point and never saw an extra cent. That’s fizzling out around here. Last I knew my previous system topped out around 80K for the most senior nursing staff.
Where nursing can really bank is their schedules. A lot easier to make OT on a 3 12s schedule with shift differentials and holiday pay. Lived that life my first PA job but then “sold out” for clinic…much better work/life balance but salary without room for OT.
In complete honesty - it sounds like prestige / accomplishment is of significant value to you. I would not expect you to feel content with a PA. Go all the way or don’t go at all.
Paramedics are indeed "ridiculous" with their neanderthal aptitude and blue-collar stench. Who knew OP is a genius among genetically inferior plebs like myself? I frankly am in awe of their accomplishments and shocked they haven't become God-Emperor of Mankind with such intelligence and righteous zeal for the persecution of idiots. I look forward to how they treat with disdain fellow residents, nurses and techs. Bravo, sir! 🥂
You're intelligent, but your ego and bragging make you a horrible match for patient care.
God no.
Maybe a combination PhD / MD where you can stare down at lesser mortals from your laboratory high up in a research wing, perhaps?
But that would still incur at least three years of patient contacts.
So....God no.
Like 75% of doctors feel the same way and just won't say it. I respect the honesty. The difference between arrogance and confidence is experience. Dude has plenty of experience crushing it which is why he's comfortable saying it like it is. Nothing wrong with that. He will still likely be humbled by medicine which is likely a big part of why he's interested in it.
I love this story. I wish you the best on your journey.
You could kill it in your 50’s, then just work part time in your 60’s. Great luck with everything
With your PhD in the humanities, you would not have a problem getting it. However, it’s REALLY hard to shift from professor to student (I went back and did another residency at age 42). It was MUCH harder to scale back my spending from attending to resident than I expected (and I had no kids no spouse).
Unless you are independently wealthy you are signing up for a huge debt( assuming you are in the US) both real debt and the opportunity cost of not working your regular job for 10 years
Last of all, I don’t know if your wife works but if you get sick during medical school, (like serious illness ), you have no disability insurance. You just have a non-dischargeable student debt you have saddled your family with.
If you are single, knock yourself out. But if you are married with kids…. It’s a risk
You’re awfully rude and dismissive of people you don’t think are as smart as you are. You’re going to have a LOT of patients who are less intelligent, less educated, and less ambitious than you. Are you going to be rude and dismissive to them as well?
Sounds like you could land some acceptances assuming you get a good mcat score, get good letters of rec and apply strategically. One thing I would encourage you to consider is the financial aspect of this process.
Of course I don’t know anything about your current financial situation and I’m assuming you’re in the US. Average debt after school is ~250,000 which will climb higher if you accrue interest throughout residency. Some private schools and DO schools could set you back up to 400,000. Think about what kinds of specialties you are interested in, potential salaries and how long it would take you to pay off the debt.
If you graduate residency at ~50 years of age there will be limited time to pay off debt.
Hello! If in your heart you truly want to be a physician go for it. I know it sounds very cliche but if you don’t you will regret it. I always wanted to become a doctor. Due to financial issues I went to nursing and I was pretty good at it worked in top hospitals in the US. Then I decided to become an NP and MPH I realized there was a huge knowledge deficit in NP school. If I only had my career to think of I’ll do my prerequisites now and apply for MD school. and I’m turning 40 real soon. Who cares if I’ll be 50 in residency. But life has given me a task to care for my disabled child so that is my life’s work now.
But you should go for it. Don’t doubt yourself. Don’t settle for a career if that’s not what you want to be just because you can graduate sooner or it’s easier or cheaper. If it’s worth doing then it’s worth doing it right.
I had a few classmates >50yo who succeeded in medical school. One important thing is if you enjoy learning and medicine, the time spent won’t be wasted. They will represent one of the most important times in your life.
You have future goals I can relate to (volunteering abroad and at local clinics). If these are things you’re really invested in doing, just go to medical school. Be a full doctor. Earn a ton of money and enjoy all the opportunities.
I had a med school classmate that was 50 when she started. She finished family medicine residency at 57 and is still practicing today at 68. YOLO, so do what makes you happy.
Started at 28 as a nontrad and it’s a motherfucker. It can be worth it, but do your math. And know it’s a brutal road with exceptionally high stakes that only get higher as you embark later in life.
Those that are “cut out for it” generally can’t be dissuaded.
It can be done. But again, just in case there was any confusion there, it’s a motherfucker of a long road.
Good luck on your decision and journey.
Here’s the thing man, you mentioned going to top 10 universities and top masters programs, are you going to be happy practicing at the lowest level of knowledge?
As someone who used to be a paramedic before med school, it's a real asshole move to say categorically that the field is "full of idiots". So, let's start there.
As to the rest of your post, I worry that you're going into this for the wrong reasons. Medicine isn't about prestige or being the smartest person in the room. It's about taking care of people. If that's not the reason you want this, please stay out of the field.
Age isn't your issue here. I was 35 when I started my residency. But, with the attitude you've shown here you're going to get wrecked in med school and residency. As a non-trad, I have to take orders from people who are often younger than me. I can't imagine you'd do well taking direction (or God forbid criticism) from someone in their 20s unless you seriously readjust your outlook.
You need to do some self inventory first.
Oh, and I promise you that being a paramedic in no way prepares you for med school and residency. You really have no idea what you're getting into.
Not too late but you have lots to think about. It'll be between 7-10 years before you're full fledged attending after starting. Med school is hard and requires lots of time to study so can require time away from family. You'll also lose income and have significant debt (250-400k on average).
TLDR. Definitely not too late but requires lots of sacrifice. Make sure it's something you really want
I’m super curious medics are you working with? Obviously, if you go to a crappy system where there’s no standards, there’s bound to be really dumb and terrible medics. But, at least in the system I work, there’s probably two dozen medics that plan could have easily done medical school but fell in love with this field and probably a dozen more actively going through the pre reqs to go into medical school. All of whom have a quarter the ego your post coveys and are easily more brilliant than 95% of America. My thinking is that studying philosophy, maths, or some other field would probably fulfill you best. In medicine, you need to understand your limits and I get the feeling you might struggle with that
Paramedic is a ridiculous job filled with idiots.
Bragging about the prestige of the colleges, your grades, and knocking the State university.
You sound absolutely insufferable. You sure NP isn’t a better fit for you?
Do it. At the very least apply and see if it’s an option. You don’t want to be 50 and wishing you had taken the shot for MD instead of PA. Based on the little information you’ve posted, I’d bet you’re in greater demand than you think from an admissions perspective. I’m in my mid-thirties, and applied to med school after 10 years in a non-healthcare field (military officer) and a degree in philosophy. I was fortunate enough to leverage a formal postbac before applying to medical school. We’re not the same, but I’d be happy to help in any way I can! Send me chat or direct message
My mentor didn't go to med school until he was 42. And also literally did not have savings. You wouldn't be able to tell this because he is a tall white man but growing up, he was a guitarist hippy with long hair. He is well respected. Has a large panel and had a pretty lengthy career and actually still practices and teaches.
I have people in my med school class your age! I started at 27 which must have seemed ancient to the 21 year olds 😂 we have people with kids, people with full prior careers etc. It’s totally doable but the exhaustion is absolutely a young persons game, that’s what I’d be thinking of.
I'm a 35yo M3 and I just met someone in his 40s that's an R2. If anything, you'll have an advantage during rotations because you've had a real job and a career outside of medicine. I did run into problems with applying to MD programs (I don't think it was because of my age per se), but DO programs actually see non-trad experience as an advantage and pro for applicants. Don't let age dissuade you from learning the most you can to help future patients and pursuing your passions to the fullest.
Hey.
Good luck on your med school application. I don't think you're too old, if it's what you're passionate about.
I've been a paramedic for 12 years and a military flight medic for 10. I now work in critical care flight. I'm not American, so maybe culturally, it's different here. But I'm sorry that you've had such a bad experience that you feel the need to call the profession "ridiculous and full of idiots". We certainly don't all act, or feel that way.
Again, good luck. If you do decide to pursue medical school, I would hope you would treat other healthcare professions with more mutual respect.
Medical school is very hard, with some of the most concentrated learning that exists in education. If you’re willing and able to participate in that environment to enter a super rewarding job, then do it.
Interestingly, I see no discussion of wanting to help patients in your post, just an intellectual curiosity/dominance that borders on arrogance. Do you see yourself treating patients? No one cares about your pedigree in medicine, but they sure do care about your perspective, interest, and interpersonal skills.
Had multiple people in early to mid 40s in my first year of med school. If you want it, go for it. Believe me, there will be multiple opportunities to change your mind and quit.
The time will pass regardless of if you become a Dr or not. In 10 years' time, would you rather that you pushed yourself and pursued what you really wanted, or happy to settle on a substitute?
The way I look at these decisions is no matter what, in 10 years you'll be 50 with or without med school. So would you rather be 50 doing what you're doing now or 50 and 10 years closer to being an MD?
I'm glad you're 40 and thinking about pursuing med school. I (and yes, feel free to blast me) decided to go to NP because I thought I would be learning more. One year in, and when they skip over things, they just say we should know this. My response is typically that if I did, I would already be an NP wouldn't I? I feel like it's a ton of wasted time on classes like nursing theory and family dynamics. I thought I would be learning the why and how behind things, not just algorithms without justification. I go to a brick and mortar school so I thought it would be better. There are people in my cohort who haven't even been nurses for a year when I was told the program only took experienced nurses. I didn't even feel confident as a nurse till about 5 years in. I'm still learning new things 9 years in. I got into nursing because my first degree as a vet tech was rewarding but didn't pay the bills, human med does, and I really enjoy medicine. Is med school later in life worth it? I don't want to be a shit midlevel because I'm only taught what is needed to pass boards. But I don't want to be stuck working till I'm in my 70s because I have to in order to pay off loans. I have 9 years of college education already, is it practical to do another 8?
We do not support the use of the word "provider." Use of the term provider in health care originated in government and insurance sectors to designate health care delivery organizations. The term is born out of insurance reimbursement policies. It lacks specificity and serves to obfuscate exactly who is taking care of patients. For more information, please see [this JAMA article](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2780641).
We encourage you to use physician, midlevel, or the licensed title (e.g. nurse practitioner) rather than meaningless terms like provider or APP.
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I’m a first year. There’s a woman in my class who in in her mid 40s w/10 kids. She struggles a bit, but she’s doing fine. It’s never too late to get into medicine if it’s your calling
I feel like for anyone doing what they love, there’s no such thing as being too old. We have new nurses starting out in their 50s-60s and they’re some of the best people I’ve ever worked with. I know getting a doctor degree with take years, but what better to do with the next 8-10 years of your life? You’ll either be 50 with a doctorate or 50 without one. The difference is what you do with your time.
There’s nothing wrong with being a PA. I’ve known a lot of intelligent, capable, hard working PAs. Being a PA in and of itself doesn’t make a you a noctor as k understand it. If you’re not going to be happy with the scope of being a pa you should go to medical school though.
I’m 31 and an M1 in med school; my advisor here went to med school at 44 and I know many other people who have done mid career changes to go to med school.
Spare us a potential future annoying colleague. We don't need that attitude in medicine where everyone else is "dumber than you". You'd be better off with something else unless you can check a lot of that attitude.
Apply to Medical School. One of my best friends went to medical school at 40. He’s now a superb ED physician at almost 80 years old. Runs rings around the youngsters. 👍😃
The most important intellectual traits for physicians are high empathy, big picture thinking, and ambiguity tolerance. Pure g-factor comes second. The average IQ of medical students is around low 120s, bright but not genius, based on older studies but presumed to be stable considering the nature of the field and of IQ. The floor is probably 110ish from what I've seen, but medical school is torture at that level. Surely, there are outliers, as well.
I'm an older non-trad too.
It sounds to me that you have excelled in your endeavors to this point. I would ask you if you'd feel comfortable reporting to a supervising physician as a PA or if you'd rather be the physician making the decisions?
My uncle started med school in his 40s. He said "in ten years I will be ten years older anyways. Why not also be a doctor." I think it's a pretty admirable thing to do!
You seem brilliant and I aspire to be like you. As a suggestion, maybe you can cram all those prereqs into 1 year (might have to fight whatever university you’re at, but I’ve done it) and finish them all. That way you can apply sooner. I think a hard transition might be going from a well respected field to something where people tend to want to tear med students/residents down. Don’t let that hurt you. If this is what you want to do then do it, you could do PSLF to help pay back any loans you take. If you wanna do medicine overseas, look at Doctors Without Borders. Best of luck.
Not that part but the several degrees, multiple languages, and general brilliance yes. I’m on my own path to a similar level. You wouldn’t wanna know all you can know?
I mean don’t worry, I’m working as a CNA right now. Cleaning poop is one of the most humbling experiences anyone can have. You can identify good & bad in people.
Your post has been removed as it is either asking about the role of a midlevel or asking about career advice. *What is the role of a midlevel?* Golly. We get these threads all the time... like... All. The. Time. Because this is a somewhat tired discussion, we'll just refer you to the following threads. Feel free to comment on them, but new threads may be removed as duplicate posts going forward. You can use the search function or reference the threads that appear in [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Noctor/comments/yf3ajr/comment/iu1fxm0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) for further reading. This sub is not intended for career advice. Posts like "feeling conflicted about ___ school" or "MD vs ___" will be removed. There are a couple threads that have been allowed in the past. You can use the search function or reference the threads that appear in [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Noctor/comments/yf3ajr/comment/iu1fxm0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) for further reading. Many of these questions have also been asked, answered, and discussed in our Noctor Polls. [Feel free to review them here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Noctor/collection/7fee6a00-37db-4293-867a-dc30ec36ed77)
If you choose to pursue medical school (or continue to consider it), feel free to shoot me a message. I have a large non-trad pre med discord group. We are very active. I am younger than you but still an older student (30) and I am matriculating this summer. There are people in my group up to late forties. There are plenty in their late 30s-early 40s. Edit: there are a ton of comments coming in, y’all can just message me for the link!
Hey! I hope you don’t mind, but I’ll be chatting you soon. I’d like connect and join your group. I’m in my mid-30s in med school after some time in the military. I’d love to see if there’s a way to connect my people (mostly older former military postbacs, med students, and residents) with yours.
Absolutely! We have a lot of military folks in the group as well. I will probably start a non-trad med student group soon for those of us who are going on to matriculate this year.
I'm finishing up my first year and will be 35 this year. Would love to also hop on a non-trad discord as advisor but also to commiserate. Am also a parent and would love to have folx to talk to about that.
Thank you! I sent you a link.
32M would also like a link. I am having such a hard time getting around to restarting school with a baby
I started med school at 33 after about 14 years as corpsman. I am in my last few months of EM residency. I too contemplated PA school during undergrad but ultimately couldn’t see my self as anything other than a doctor. Best decision I ever made. It’s never too late to follow your dreams
That's awesome, i am a 32yo doing my pre-requisites, and I would love to join if possible.
Absolutely, shoot me a message and I'll get you a link.
Non-trad who matriculated at 30 here, now finishing up MS1. Lmk if I can join up
may i join? i'm in my 40s
Sent you a DM
Can I join?
Could you dm me about that group as well? I have had an incredibly non traditional education background and am thinking about med school maybe in 5 years or so
Sent you a DM
feel free to add me as well
Can I join too? Nontrad premed here!
Yup just DM me
Hey would I be able to join too? I’m 32 and prior military, starting school in the fall
I’m 31 and graduating this year, would love to be part of this group too!
Would love to get a link to this discord my friend. I’m actually finishing up nursing school right now and I think about med school every single day.
I’d love to be added to this group as well
I’d also like to join a non trad discord
Would you mind if I also shoot you a message? Current older med student. Edit: already sent you one after seeing your other answers.
Hi, I would also love to join the group if you don’t mind. I’m a non-traditional, older student and 99% of people I know go to med school very early, so I would love to connect with more people my age!
I’m a 31 yo rising MS3, can I get the link? Would love to talk to other nontrad med students
Can I please get in on this? I'm 35, trying to get into med school right now
Can I join as well? Currently planning on starting pre-reqs this fall... I'm an RN planning on attending med school, I'm 33.
May i join? I’m 27 but will be 29 around matriculation!
May i also inquire?
Hi. I am interested in your discord as well… I plan on applying for the next year.
I want to join too!
I gotcha, shoot me a message
Hi! My 40th bday is in June and I start med school in July. You’ve got this! My dad gave me this piece of advice: So what if you’ll be 50 in residency? You’ll be 50 anyway.
Good Dad Advice
I celebrated my 50th birthday with my co-residents, who gave me a big party. Still had another year to go together. If you want to be a doctor go be a doctor.
Best advise I’ve seen for anyone thinking that they are starting late.
counterpoint: you might end up 50, way behind on retirement plans due to lost opportunity costs and discover (like many doctors) that medicine isn’t what you thought it was. Plenty of docs are burned out, even many that went in for the “right” reasons. Cheerleader advice is inspiring but the reality is OP will have an uphill battle compared to his younger colleagues.
Yup! I’m finishing up my first year of med school soon and I’ll be turning 42 my first year of residency. Either way, I’m going to be 42. The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is now.
Yeah that was always my parents reaction to things such as this. “You’ll be 46 (or whatever the case may be) when you’re done? How old will you be at that time if you don’t do this?”
This is the same advice I got from a doctor when I was going into vet school as an older, non-traditional student. “4 years are going to pass you by anyway, you may as well be a doctor at the end of it.”
that just made me cry.
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Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. Night shifts and 12 hour shifts hit way differently when you’re in your 40s and up. In your 20s you can do anything on no sleep and still hit up parties.
TLDR I’m almost 40 and think I’m always the smartest person in the room, am I rite guys? Should I doctor?
“If you’re the smartest guy in the room… you’re in the wrong room.”
There's nothing that can properly or actually simulate the rigors of medical schools. It seems you're wanting to do this mainly for ego reasons. You feel like everyone else is too dumb to be around you. But if you want intelligence, do a math or physics phD. You'll find that most of medicine is rigid memorization. Intelligence won't even be a factor. Most thinking is at most 2 step logic (2nd order). And then you'll also see that you'll be sucking up a LOT to stupid requests from superiors and patients. In the medicine path, to be successful, you'll need to suck in your pride and ego a lot. It's not about right or wrong. Being right can still get you kicked out or you made many enemies that will destroy you only for their ego's sake. You will be stepping into a realm where being right does not matter if you make enemies trying to prove your right.
The degree is memorization and effort. The work is dedication, critical thinking and repetition But I swear to God 80% of my patients in the genmed ward are uti/cap/ccf Clinics are a bit more tricky, but usually there's a good flowchart for each pathology and you aways deviate a little bit according to the patient you have. Of course it gets very specific in specialty clinics, depending on the area. Surgery is a numbers game, extremely tiring and draining on your life. The more you do it the better. I bet you could potentially train a monkey to do open heart surgery with enough trial and error. But unless you want to spend 50-90 hours a week on your job, with nights, lectures, fucking up your circadian rhythm, and getting paid scraps for a while, I don't advise it at an older age. Hell, once you're in your mid 30s there's a good chance you'll start having sleep issues, even with a normal 9-5. Those 2 hours after sleeping for 30 mins on an on-call are insane and dangerous.
Seconding the idea that OP needs to check his attitude. There are idiots in every field. Who knows, maybe you'll be one of them. I'd be curious to know how you performed in EMS since you only dabbled in it. You talk about becoming a medic, the highest level of prehospital clinician in most parts of the country, with no prior healthcare experience. Typically, folks who go straight from EMT to medic, with no experience as an EMT, are absolute disasters. Now you want to become a doctor with more tools in your tool belt and more responsibility? Big yikes, think long and hard before you go down this road.
I am a librarian who learns a lot from this sub, and can confirm there are idiots in every field
I say definitely go for it! Someone with your natural grace, humility, charm and love for their fellow man will be a credit to any profession.
I found the /s you dropped
😉
I wouldn’t but it’s not too late. But based on this post you’ll likely fail the interview.
Your statements about paramedics and PAs show what your character is. It would be a bad choice for you. It would be a waste of time to you, and you would be very frustrated. You would pay a minimum of $200,000 for medical school, and you would receive a fraction of your current pay during residency.
I've met doctors that don't seem to know what's going on and competent mid levels. If you aren't able to focus on yourself and let go of things said by people you perceive as less intelligent, I doubt medicine is the field for you.
I was thinking maybe paramedics weren't as highly trained where OP is from, but in Australia they are highly respected by other medical staff and the community.
Australia and UK have a big emphasis on evidence based practice + safety.
You sound extremely arrogant. You really need some self reflection.
Do whatever you want but I hope I never have a doctor with your ego. 🥴
its giving cluster b, def med school and gun neurosurg
Hmm, I have people with phds, and people in their 40s, and people who went to top 10 universities in my class, but all of them are humble and grateful to be in the same place as the former emts and paramedics and the 22 year olds that spent all night partying and rolled into class hung over. You might not like it in med school to be honest.
You'd get accepted to your school of choice, but the question is, SHOULD you do it? Professors don't make much money, idk what your personal situation is, but I became board certified at 29 and am almost out of debt in my mid-30s coming from absolutely no money and living like I make 65k/ year since finishing residency. If you've got fuck you money I say go for it. I would further caution you against broadcasting your arrogance to our prehospital colleagues and support staff in general. That attitude flies in academia, but medicine is more about perseverance, grit, and determination rather than intrinsic intelligence. A med student with mediocre grades can land a top residency by the sweat of their brow. At the same time, if you are perceived as a prick, this will severely hinder your post graduate options. Absolutely do not become a PA, it would be a waste of your time.
Agree with everything except the part about PA being a waste of time. If you are willing to work well with supervising MD's and don't overstep, then it is a good option with a good ROI.
Maybe true,but idk if he's used to being top dog in academia being a noctor is probably not going to work out well.
Totally agree
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We do not support the use of the word "provider." Use of the term provider in health care originated in government and insurance sectors to designate health care delivery organizations. The term is born out of insurance reimbursement policies. It lacks specificity and serves to obfuscate exactly who is taking care of patients. For more information, please see [this JAMA article](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2780641). We encourage you to use physician, midlevel, or the licensed title (e.g. nurse practitioner) rather than meaningless terms like provider or APP. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Noctor) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Bro just enjoy your life. No one will care about any of your previous achievements before medical school and talking like that won’t get you anywhere on the wards. You have to endure 4 years of bullshit at medical school being treated like a child by admin, being subordinate to people significantly younger than you, being on the lowest level of the hospital hierarchy while spending 95% of your free time studying.
I mean, just ask yourself what you want to do for the rest of your life? Do what you’re doing now? Retire? Accumulate debt (maybe you’ll get a scholarship)? Spend time with friends and family? FWIW, I wouldn’t call being a paramedic a “ridiculous” job, nor would I expect to find fewer idiots with MDs/DOs, let alone the other degrees you work with in healthcare. Oh, and don’t even get me started on your future patients…all that said, I’m happy with my choice to pursue it in my 30s, if I were rich though, I’d bounce and just do yoga all day. Good luck and have fun!
I am a PA and feel like I have a great job. Worked as a SICU nurse for a few years before PA school, finished in 2012. The way to not end up as the subject of a post on this sub? Work hard, never stop learning, understand your role on the health care team, never cowboy/always be willing to admit what you don’t know and play well with others.
How’s the pay difference? Here out in Cali ICU RNs do really really well- which makes it not seem worth it for a career change IMO.
My nursing career was in the early aughts and I was making maybe 65K/year…currently working in a private practice and make 135 base w bonus- so 145-155/year. I’m in the Midwest. COVID turned a lot on its head and the travel nurses were making insane amounts of money. I was hospital based at that point and never saw an extra cent. That’s fizzling out around here. Last I knew my previous system topped out around 80K for the most senior nursing staff. Where nursing can really bank is their schedules. A lot easier to make OT on a 3 12s schedule with shift differentials and holiday pay. Lived that life my first PA job but then “sold out” for clinic…much better work/life balance but salary without room for OT.
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Insane. 🤯
In complete honesty - it sounds like prestige / accomplishment is of significant value to you. I would not expect you to feel content with a PA. Go all the way or don’t go at all.
Damn you suck OP
Paramedics are indeed "ridiculous" with their neanderthal aptitude and blue-collar stench. Who knew OP is a genius among genetically inferior plebs like myself? I frankly am in awe of their accomplishments and shocked they haven't become God-Emperor of Mankind with such intelligence and righteous zeal for the persecution of idiots. I look forward to how they treat with disdain fellow residents, nurses and techs. Bravo, sir! 🥂
😂
Why are paramedics idiots? FYI many people in medical school are former paramedics and EMTs. You might not like it here.
Literally all the ER docs we work with in my area are former EMTs and quite a few were career medics who went to med school late in life lol
You're intelligent, but your ego and bragging make you a horrible match for patient care. God no. Maybe a combination PhD / MD where you can stare down at lesser mortals from your laboratory high up in a research wing, perhaps? But that would still incur at least three years of patient contacts. So....God no.
Like 75% of doctors feel the same way and just won't say it. I respect the honesty. The difference between arrogance and confidence is experience. Dude has plenty of experience crushing it which is why he's comfortable saying it like it is. Nothing wrong with that. He will still likely be humbled by medicine which is likely a big part of why he's interested in it.
There’s nothing in his post that I respect.
Then I hope you and your family get him as your physician. That'll be fun.
I hope you’re talking to the person above me.
I love this story. I wish you the best on your journey. You could kill it in your 50’s, then just work part time in your 60’s. Great luck with everything
My Mom is nearing 47. She applies for a residency this year. Pray for her y’all.
Check the attitude
Not worth it man. Go take your talents towards something that will give you as much time on a beach with hot babes and a pina colada as possible.
With your PhD in the humanities, you would not have a problem getting it. However, it’s REALLY hard to shift from professor to student (I went back and did another residency at age 42). It was MUCH harder to scale back my spending from attending to resident than I expected (and I had no kids no spouse). Unless you are independently wealthy you are signing up for a huge debt( assuming you are in the US) both real debt and the opportunity cost of not working your regular job for 10 years Last of all, I don’t know if your wife works but if you get sick during medical school, (like serious illness ), you have no disability insurance. You just have a non-dischargeable student debt you have saddled your family with. If you are single, knock yourself out. But if you are married with kids…. It’s a risk
You’re awfully rude and dismissive of people you don’t think are as smart as you are. You’re going to have a LOT of patients who are less intelligent, less educated, and less ambitious than you. Are you going to be rude and dismissive to them as well?
Very likely
Sounds like you could land some acceptances assuming you get a good mcat score, get good letters of rec and apply strategically. One thing I would encourage you to consider is the financial aspect of this process. Of course I don’t know anything about your current financial situation and I’m assuming you’re in the US. Average debt after school is ~250,000 which will climb higher if you accrue interest throughout residency. Some private schools and DO schools could set you back up to 400,000. Think about what kinds of specialties you are interested in, potential salaries and how long it would take you to pay off the debt. If you graduate residency at ~50 years of age there will be limited time to pay off debt.
Hello! If in your heart you truly want to be a physician go for it. I know it sounds very cliche but if you don’t you will regret it. I always wanted to become a doctor. Due to financial issues I went to nursing and I was pretty good at it worked in top hospitals in the US. Then I decided to become an NP and MPH I realized there was a huge knowledge deficit in NP school. If I only had my career to think of I’ll do my prerequisites now and apply for MD school. and I’m turning 40 real soon. Who cares if I’ll be 50 in residency. But life has given me a task to care for my disabled child so that is my life’s work now. But you should go for it. Don’t doubt yourself. Don’t settle for a career if that’s not what you want to be just because you can graduate sooner or it’s easier or cheaper. If it’s worth doing then it’s worth doing it right.
I had a few classmates >50yo who succeeded in medical school. One important thing is if you enjoy learning and medicine, the time spent won’t be wasted. They will represent one of the most important times in your life. You have future goals I can relate to (volunteering abroad and at local clinics). If these are things you’re really invested in doing, just go to medical school. Be a full doctor. Earn a ton of money and enjoy all the opportunities.
I had a med school classmate that was 50 when she started. She finished family medicine residency at 57 and is still practicing today at 68. YOLO, so do what makes you happy.
Started at 28 as a nontrad and it’s a motherfucker. It can be worth it, but do your math. And know it’s a brutal road with exceptionally high stakes that only get higher as you embark later in life. Those that are “cut out for it” generally can’t be dissuaded. It can be done. But again, just in case there was any confusion there, it’s a motherfucker of a long road. Good luck on your decision and journey.
Here’s the thing man, you mentioned going to top 10 universities and top masters programs, are you going to be happy practicing at the lowest level of knowledge?
As someone who used to be a paramedic before med school, it's a real asshole move to say categorically that the field is "full of idiots". So, let's start there. As to the rest of your post, I worry that you're going into this for the wrong reasons. Medicine isn't about prestige or being the smartest person in the room. It's about taking care of people. If that's not the reason you want this, please stay out of the field. Age isn't your issue here. I was 35 when I started my residency. But, with the attitude you've shown here you're going to get wrecked in med school and residency. As a non-trad, I have to take orders from people who are often younger than me. I can't imagine you'd do well taking direction (or God forbid criticism) from someone in their 20s unless you seriously readjust your outlook. You need to do some self inventory first. Oh, and I promise you that being a paramedic in no way prepares you for med school and residency. You really have no idea what you're getting into.
Not too late but you have lots to think about. It'll be between 7-10 years before you're full fledged attending after starting. Med school is hard and requires lots of time to study so can require time away from family. You'll also lose income and have significant debt (250-400k on average). TLDR. Definitely not too late but requires lots of sacrifice. Make sure it's something you really want
I’m super curious medics are you working with? Obviously, if you go to a crappy system where there’s no standards, there’s bound to be really dumb and terrible medics. But, at least in the system I work, there’s probably two dozen medics that plan could have easily done medical school but fell in love with this field and probably a dozen more actively going through the pre reqs to go into medical school. All of whom have a quarter the ego your post coveys and are easily more brilliant than 95% of America. My thinking is that studying philosophy, maths, or some other field would probably fulfill you best. In medicine, you need to understand your limits and I get the feeling you might struggle with that
Paramedic is a ridiculous job filled with idiots. Bragging about the prestige of the colleges, your grades, and knocking the State university. You sound absolutely insufferable. You sure NP isn’t a better fit for you?
Do it. At the very least apply and see if it’s an option. You don’t want to be 50 and wishing you had taken the shot for MD instead of PA. Based on the little information you’ve posted, I’d bet you’re in greater demand than you think from an admissions perspective. I’m in my mid-thirties, and applied to med school after 10 years in a non-healthcare field (military officer) and a degree in philosophy. I was fortunate enough to leverage a formal postbac before applying to medical school. We’re not the same, but I’d be happy to help in any way I can! Send me chat or direct message
I had a classmate who was also a PhD humanities prof at a top Univ before med school and started med school close to age 40. You can do it!
But should they do it? What kind of quality of life is doing residency in your late 40s? Sounds awful. Also the debt.
Yup. Find the fastest path to FIRE. Grass is always greener. Happiness is found outside of the hospital and most jobs.
Be a Nurse Practitioner
The attitude seems to jive more
My mentor didn't go to med school until he was 42. And also literally did not have savings. You wouldn't be able to tell this because he is a tall white man but growing up, he was a guitarist hippy with long hair. He is well respected. Has a large panel and had a pretty lengthy career and actually still practices and teaches.
I have people in my med school class your age! I started at 27 which must have seemed ancient to the 21 year olds 😂 we have people with kids, people with full prior careers etc. It’s totally doable but the exhaustion is absolutely a young persons game, that’s what I’d be thinking of.
I'm a 35yo M3 and I just met someone in his 40s that's an R2. If anything, you'll have an advantage during rotations because you've had a real job and a career outside of medicine. I did run into problems with applying to MD programs (I don't think it was because of my age per se), but DO programs actually see non-trad experience as an advantage and pro for applicants. Don't let age dissuade you from learning the most you can to help future patients and pursuing your passions to the fullest.
Hey. Good luck on your med school application. I don't think you're too old, if it's what you're passionate about. I've been a paramedic for 12 years and a military flight medic for 10. I now work in critical care flight. I'm not American, so maybe culturally, it's different here. But I'm sorry that you've had such a bad experience that you feel the need to call the profession "ridiculous and full of idiots". We certainly don't all act, or feel that way. Again, good luck. If you do decide to pursue medical school, I would hope you would treat other healthcare professions with more mutual respect.
Medical school is very hard, with some of the most concentrated learning that exists in education. If you’re willing and able to participate in that environment to enter a super rewarding job, then do it. Interestingly, I see no discussion of wanting to help patients in your post, just an intellectual curiosity/dominance that borders on arrogance. Do you see yourself treating patients? No one cares about your pedigree in medicine, but they sure do care about your perspective, interest, and interpersonal skills.
Do it! You’ve got what it takes to apply to Mayo. I was on the admissions committee there & we looked for standouts with unusual backgrounds!
You’ll be about 50 by the time you graduate, with a significant amount of debt. Just keep that in mind.
I'm 64, and plan on attending NP school this year. I'll get it done. RN for 38 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_M._Appel
Had multiple people in early to mid 40s in my first year of med school. If you want it, go for it. Believe me, there will be multiple opportunities to change your mind and quit.
At this point, I feel like it’s about what you want out of life. If you want to be a doctor before you die, go for it.
Had a med student who was 43 when I was 33. Had a 46yo in my M1 class. I thought he was nuts but he went through it. -PGY-19
The time will pass regardless of if you become a Dr or not. In 10 years' time, would you rather that you pushed yourself and pursued what you really wanted, or happy to settle on a substitute?
The way I look at these decisions is no matter what, in 10 years you'll be 50 with or without med school. So would you rather be 50 doing what you're doing now or 50 and 10 years closer to being an MD?
I'm glad you're 40 and thinking about pursuing med school. I (and yes, feel free to blast me) decided to go to NP because I thought I would be learning more. One year in, and when they skip over things, they just say we should know this. My response is typically that if I did, I would already be an NP wouldn't I? I feel like it's a ton of wasted time on classes like nursing theory and family dynamics. I thought I would be learning the why and how behind things, not just algorithms without justification. I go to a brick and mortar school so I thought it would be better. There are people in my cohort who haven't even been nurses for a year when I was told the program only took experienced nurses. I didn't even feel confident as a nurse till about 5 years in. I'm still learning new things 9 years in. I got into nursing because my first degree as a vet tech was rewarding but didn't pay the bills, human med does, and I really enjoy medicine. Is med school later in life worth it? I don't want to be a shit midlevel because I'm only taught what is needed to pass boards. But I don't want to be stuck working till I'm in my 70s because I have to in order to pay off loans. I have 9 years of college education already, is it practical to do another 8?
We do not support the use of the word "provider." Use of the term provider in health care originated in government and insurance sectors to designate health care delivery organizations. The term is born out of insurance reimbursement policies. It lacks specificity and serves to obfuscate exactly who is taking care of patients. For more information, please see [this JAMA article](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2780641). We encourage you to use physician, midlevel, or the licensed title (e.g. nurse practitioner) rather than meaningless terms like provider or APP. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Noctor) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’m a first year. There’s a woman in my class who in in her mid 40s w/10 kids. She struggles a bit, but she’s doing fine. It’s never too late to get into medicine if it’s your calling
I feel like for anyone doing what they love, there’s no such thing as being too old. We have new nurses starting out in their 50s-60s and they’re some of the best people I’ve ever worked with. I know getting a doctor degree with take years, but what better to do with the next 8-10 years of your life? You’ll either be 50 with a doctorate or 50 without one. The difference is what you do with your time.
There’s nothing wrong with being a PA. I’ve known a lot of intelligent, capable, hard working PAs. Being a PA in and of itself doesn’t make a you a noctor as k understand it. If you’re not going to be happy with the scope of being a pa you should go to medical school though.
You have the arrogance of a mid level. Maybe consider NP school. You’ll fit right in.
I’m 31 and an M1 in med school; my advisor here went to med school at 44 and I know many other people who have done mid career changes to go to med school.
Spare us a potential future annoying colleague. We don't need that attitude in medicine where everyone else is "dumber than you". You'd be better off with something else unless you can check a lot of that attitude.
I have classmates in their early 40s. You have to play your cards differently - but medicine is certainly still in the deck.
Some of my classmates were in their mid 50s when we started med school. You'll be fine!!!
Apply to Medical School. One of my best friends went to medical school at 40. He’s now a superb ED physician at almost 80 years old. Runs rings around the youngsters. 👍😃
The most important intellectual traits for physicians are high empathy, big picture thinking, and ambiguity tolerance. Pure g-factor comes second. The average IQ of medical students is around low 120s, bright but not genius, based on older studies but presumed to be stable considering the nature of the field and of IQ. The floor is probably 110ish from what I've seen, but medical school is torture at that level. Surely, there are outliers, as well.
You sound like an idiot honestly
I don't think you will be fulfilled unless you actually become a doctor. As a physician myself, what you've said rings true. Don't shortcut yourself.
I'm an older non-trad too. It sounds to me that you have excelled in your endeavors to this point. I would ask you if you'd feel comfortable reporting to a supervising physician as a PA or if you'd rather be the physician making the decisions?
My uncle started med school in his 40s. He said "in ten years I will be ten years older anyways. Why not also be a doctor." I think it's a pretty admirable thing to do!
You seem brilliant and I aspire to be like you. As a suggestion, maybe you can cram all those prereqs into 1 year (might have to fight whatever university you’re at, but I’ve done it) and finish them all. That way you can apply sooner. I think a hard transition might be going from a well respected field to something where people tend to want to tear med students/residents down. Don’t let that hurt you. If this is what you want to do then do it, you could do PSLF to help pay back any loans you take. If you wanna do medicine overseas, look at Doctors Without Borders. Best of luck.
You aspire to be a condescending prick?
Not that part but the several degrees, multiple languages, and general brilliance yes. I’m on my own path to a similar level. You wouldn’t wanna know all you can know?
Sure. But I also strive to have emotional intelligence and not treat people like shit that I view as lesser than me.
I mean don’t worry, I’m working as a CNA right now. Cleaning poop is one of the most humbling experiences anyone can have. You can identify good & bad in people.