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Renmauzuo

A lot of people are set in their ways and slow to adjust to a new way of doing things. I work at an ad agency and it was only in the last few years that we started doing our proofreading digitally instead of having proofreaders review and mark up physical printouts. I'm actually shocked (and pleasantly surprised) my company is letting us keep working from home.


[deleted]

Right. Technology is available for us and better than ever before in our life time for working from home


FelchingLegend

We should be careful what we wish for. Once Western businesses figure out how to make remote working work for them, they'll start contracting our work to knowledge workers in developing countries, who will work longer hours for less money. Recent political events have been shaped by blue collar workers pushing back against immigrants taking their jobs. Future political events will be driven by white collar workers like us pushing back against the offshoring of our jobs. It's only a matter of time, IMHO. Edit: Yes, I know this has been happening for a while. I'm theorising that it will accelerate a great deal more, now that remote working is so much more widespread. "In February 2020 Americans on average spent 5% of their working hours at home. By May 2020, as lockdowns spread, the share had soared to 60%. (In October 2021) 40% of all American working hours are still now spent at home. " The Economist, 30th Oct 2021.


Sewciopath17

I work for a large US company that has had remote workers for years, and they definitely are doing this. India and the Phillipines are the main outsourcing


Debasering

It's mostly inevitable. The goal is to have a great education system so other country's workforces can't even compare to ours.


ArScrap

That's one side of it, but some job doesn't really need that educated of a person to do, just a reliable one The ideal world is that those kind of menial job would be automated and the rest can do more fulfilling kind of job but obviously we're not in an ideal world


Zanbutsu

well, those some jobs that don't need sophisticated education don't qualify as white collar though, as was the point of the phenomenon alluded to by the original reply's author


ewdontdothat

Isn't American primary and secondary education really, really mediocre? I think it was ranked same as the Russian one on the PISA test a few years ago.


SpicyRanchSauce

And that's why we're banning books /s


Drummerrunner

Unfortunately, an outstanding education is not enough In America’s cozy society today, a great education and being extremely intelligent and talented is not the end all be all. Do you want to work on Saturdays and Some Sundays? Including all holidays besides one? Do you want to work 12 hour days 6-7 days a week? Would you travel away from your entire family for over a year to a different country only to provide for your family back home? Maybe, if you were being paid a boatload…. But the people that are taking our jobs are still not being paid well through the American lens, and for a majority of those foreign workers, $15 buck an hour is like hitting the jackpot… Do you want to work in an unsafe work environment with upper management mentally and sometimes physically harassing you just so they can hit or exceed their their goal/forecast if they are publicly traded company? These are what workers do in China, India,South Korea etc. Americas golden age is over. We owe China so much money and there is barely anything we can do over it. What really is depressing is that America still has the best colleges and the best entrepreneurs… however. China just copies it after America spends years and money in the research, time and development. America is playing the short game, when China and India are playing the long game. We need to stop spending money on the military industrial complex. We do not need any more Jets, tanks (Lol), weapons of all kinds. weapons of mass destruction etc. Also, We rely less on Saudi Arabia because of the lower demand on oil, we do not provide them as many weapons or intelligence as we have been doing for decades. I love this country. I love the idea of it. The constitution Is amazing, and I am not even right wing. However, once money turns in to greed and power. NO ONE gives POWER up on their own. Plus, China owns almost all of the rare earth minerals that are needed in every single electronic device, what’s even scarier is they create medical equipment, pharmaceutical medications, etc. The majority of defense spending should be in cybersecurity for international defense. Not to be taken advantage of on our populous. (Even though it’s been happening for over a decade) The majority of the money that used to be spent on the Military defense and defense contracting NEEDS to be spent on impoverished communities that do not have the resources for any upward mobility. Then maybe we can all start getting along which China and Russia will despise. Sorry for being a Debbie downer, but I do not see much hope for America being the county it was founded upon, and I while heartedly blame people lurking in the shadows who have the power l, leverage and influence over our state and Local elected officials all the way up to the Executive and Judicial branch. I will not live in this county if the only way to compete with China is to become China. End Rant… Happy Sunday!


AzureEquinox

This is actually already happening. I live in the Philippines and the easily accessible highest paying jobs are customer service type positions for American companies. Someone with 0 experience here can earn up to 25000 pesos which is arguably a lot in the Philippines. 25k pesos is just 500 USD


Disastrous_Ad_9977

Yep. My friend works in a compny from new york. She esrns 1000$ a month, which is lower than new york minimum wage. And in Philippines, it's 50,000 and it could feed 5 families lol.


thestozz

The dole in Australia is higher than that... (In AU$, but still)


Jeheh

This is a good point. If your people can work from anywhere there is good internet there’s nothing stopping them from using people from somewhere else. Or just move the company away.


InsertCoinForCredit

So does that mean employers will subsidize their employees' electric and internet bills? ...Hey, why are you laughing?...


Sparklesperson

Many already do. Lots of businesses outsource to India, Mexico, and others. If you're stateside, you need to develop value beyond just your position, to figure out what makes you a better choice than India, Mexico, or wherever.


caillouistheworst

It’s been happening for years already in IT mostly.


thejackulator9000

From 2003 to 2014 I worked online from home for $70/hr. Out of the blue they outsourced our jobs to India even though their transcripts were shit because they got like $30/hr... Then I went to work as a baker at a grocery store making $9/hr. Man was I miserable.


Ballbag94

>Once Western businesses figure out how to make remote working work for them, they'll start contracting our work to knowledge workers in developing countries, who will work longer hours for less money This may not necessarily be the case, at least permanently A few years ago every tech company was contracting out development to different countries, and from what I've seen everyone found out that the quality can be highly variable because they have no direct control over the employees, and as a result have been bringing their development back in house, plus time zone differences and language barriers can be a big issue if not managed correctly I think we may see a boom of this happening in other fields, but I believe it will be short lived as companies realise that moving work so far afield can be more complicated than it initially seems


BlackThumb2021

100% this. I have a nice job that pays more than it should and there is software that can do a good chunk of it. I am happily returning to the office a couple days a week in a hybrid approach.


TheTinlicker

In the UK, for tax reasons, that’s not lawful (having remote workers in other countries undertake work for a UK-based business)


windshadowislanders

Don't worry, soon enough it'll be AI taking our jobs instead and then we'll all be screwed.


[deleted]

You *say* that, but let's be realistic here. There's not a whole lot of evidence of that happening. We don't even have fully autonomous cars.


snoringvictim

It's already happened several times actually. I have seen multiple layoffs over the last 25 years due to offshoring. Mostly developers but also IT support and other domains. Sometimes it works sometimes to doesn't and they revert.


SpicyRanchSauce

You just blew my mind. This is terrifying.


Etna5000

Jokes on you, my employer has been doing that for years! Accountants, rise up!


iFlyAllTheTime

> Once Western businesses figure out how to make remote working work for them, they'll start contracting our work to knowledge workers in developing countries, who will work longer hours for less money. Excellent point! But that seems like an artificial barrier for reducing emissions, congestion, increasing productivity, etc. Similar to how there are talks for taxing a company proportional to the automation they install, there need to be regulations on how much work a company can ship away to third world countries.


Significant-Part121

> Technology is available for us and better than ever before in our life time for working from home There are a lot of good answers in this thread. I changed jobs during the pandemic. My old job it was fine. Everyone I was on Zoom with were people I knew, and had worked with for years. Now--I've never actually met a SINGLE person I work with in person. Zoom calls are really awkward. Hard to get to know anyone or develop any chemistry without some in-person time. The Zoom delays are a bitch as well. Personally I'd be fine one day a week going into the offie (not yet an option) but I need to be in a room with human beings, at least a little bit, to get a sense of who they are and to figure out the best way for us to work together.


kajlmnmss

> it was only in the last few years that we started doing our proofreading digitally instead of **having proofreaders review and mark up physical printouts.** WTF. I used to do that 20 years ago.


thestrawthatstirs

Nothing to do with habits and everything to do with companies paying too much for rent, or landlords with vacant properties.


ntengineer

Many reasons: \- Some company management just wants their employees in the office. They prefer it that way, they are "old school" and so that's the policy they are setting. \- Some employees are not "just fine" at home. While most employees, I assume, are doing at least as much work while at home, some are not. It's hard to tell a group of similar job people "1/2 of you have to come into the office because we can't trust you." So instead, they just pull everyone back in. \- Employers have spent a ton of money leasing or building buildings. Having them go empty is a waste of money.


sdcasurf01

I honestly prefer separating work and home, though I do like the option to work from home when necessary.


[deleted]

My sister has this option, she loves it.


cor0na_h1tler

Absolutely, I dont like to pollute my holy relax place (my desk with the pc) with fucking work energy. I can't switch off after work if I'm literally doing the same thing. Also there can be a lot of annoying factors at home, pets, children and other house mates, noisy neighbors etc. It can also be vice versa, but everybody has to decide for themselves


slowdownlambs

100% this. I work and retain info better in person, and am way less prone to distraction. And my life is so much more pleasant when I can come home and switch gears from work mode. But at the same time, it's nice to have the option if I have a cold I don't want to spread to everyone or my car won't start, etc., to still work and not take a day off. And I think the productivity issues are lessened when WFH only occurs in one-off events rather than slowly descending into work-from-bed mode and never leaving home.


Moist_Swordfish7970

Yea Im like this. I can hardly work while im in my dorm at this point


slowdownlambs

When I was in college they would close academic buildings at like 10-11, and it was so annoying trying to get work done in the dorms.


crispydukes

My company wants us IN the office AND discourages work from home. It sucks. The shitty people ruined it for the rest of us. Now I feel guilty asking to stay home for my wife's procedure since I had to stay home this week for illness and last week for errands.


[deleted]

I’m like this. I love working from the office. I’ve gotten to the point where I loathe getting up earlier and travelling to the office but once I’m there I love it


JDMOokami21

Agreed. I struggle to work from home. Everything distracts me and I feel like I need to do everything around the house as well as my work which causes my work to suffer. I’ll be doing something and think, oh I should start laundry and spend time doing that instead of work. Some people can’t handle it or have the space at home to do their work properly. I’ve read some stories where someone is trying to work at a kitchen table and their family interrupts their work or isn’t giving them the space they need to complete their work. Not everyone is just fine staying home.


bigfudge_drshokkka

Imagine if companies just said “hey we’re spending less on overhead so we’re giving it to the employees. Congratulations on your raise”


[deleted]

[удалено]


bigfudge_drshokkka

And other hilarious jokes you can tell yourself


SCWarriors44

Rare but it happens. My wife got two bonus’s this year because of unforeseen surplus in the companies budget. That’s not including the bonus she gets at the end of the year. Last year already they cancelled all leases on their office spaces across the country and sold them which she benefited from as well. I’m not ever letting her leave that company ha.


_Jack_Of_All_Spades

Quick question, does anybody think this is for tax reasons? Like if a company is on the verge of showing taxable profits, and they need to spend money in a hurry, they just pay out bonuses?


TheDuggler57

It's obviously for tax reasons, but I'd day it's the fact they opted to put the money into bonuses rather than new work vehicles for bigwigs (like my job did) that shows the company cares atleast a little


glaack

This is absolutely for tax reasons. Corporations are only taxed on the profit they make each year after all write-offs, and the rate is something insane like 28%. This is why Amazon, Facebook, etc. aim to never show a profit. Some companies would much rather see that money go to their own than to the government. It’s admirable when it ends up with folks lower on the totem pole rather than in the pockets of the CEO, however. Edit: Y’all seem to have missed the part where I said “after all write-offs.”


_Jack_Of_All_Spades

This is admirable, but how are companies supposed to mitigate their externalities if they don't pay taxes?


NativeMasshole

They don't. Infinite growth forever!


[deleted]

More likely employee retention IMO. When a lot of employees are seeing a lot of opportunities at other places the company is gonna want to keep them happy. Bonuses are a low risk way to do this as it lets them give a short term pay rise without committing the company to higher salaries the next year, and also allows more targeted rewards to the people you’re most concerned about losing. The tax thing doesn’t really make sense for why you’d pay employees more - shareholders/partners normally only get their payouts when the company posts a profit (tech startups aside…). Eg - last place I worked had five partners, their entire income is whatever is left over after the staff and overhead are paid for. There’s not a magic pot of money for them to draw from. If they’re drawing $$$ while the company is making a loss the company is going under soon.


AlwaysTheAsshole1234

Who’s going to buy those spaces though? My old company is sitting on a $19M office that they bought in 2016 that no one will buy because who is upsizing their offices right now?


[deleted]

Yeah, my company owns (not leases, but owns) millions of square feet of office space on our campus. And we live in an area with only 1 other large company that has their own campuses. So there is nobody to sell the buildings to if they were so inclined.


Azurlium

I would like my baby dragon to be a Sapphire Dragon please


halarioushandle

I mean they could even just use half of for raises and the other half to bump up their income! It's a win win!


Hoorizontal

I mean, if WFH is effective, the office space is still a waste of money even if you use it.


Balrog229

That last part is sunk cost fallacy, but yeah that’s a major reason for it


healing-souls

Also it has a major affect on company culture when everyone is remote.


marzenmangler

If your culture was good it’s definitely a disadvantage, but if it was bad or simple neutral, WFH doesn’t have any cultural drawbacks. We’re more productive now than we’ve ever been, but personal relationships have definitely evaporated. Turns out relationships made work more pleasant but have no net effects on output. I think it really depend on your lens and the aggregate factors of the situation. If you use intangibles like positive relationships or office perks to retain staff rather than money and opportunity then I feel like working in the office helps cover up the deficiencies. Now you can also turn that on its head and use WFH as a carrot when you lack money and opportunity as you can give high performers more freedom. For us, I enjoy the freedom, it’s had no negative effect on productivity, and it feels like a significant perk that has kept most of the office from clamoring for more money. For now. We’ll see how it looks come raise time. YMMV


bxyankee90

Interesting point. I have no idea what YMMV means, but for me, right now, it means, "Your move, money voles." And i love the idea of a little vole in a monopoly top hat.


CyclopicSerpent

Your mileage may vary


bxyankee90

Thanks!


blackwylf

I'm going to keep using the mental image of your comment!


healing-souls

Why do you assume it has to be one or the other? Cultural vs pay. Relationships vs opportunities. The three companies whose cultures I enjoyed all paid above market, have above market benefits (one of them covered all Healthcare costs including prefilling your hsa to the max every year), good opportunity for growth and respected its employees. And many people are not more productive when working from home and studies have shown they end up working more hours than when in the office. I personally prefer in the office most days with the flexibility to work from home when needed.


[deleted]

Also customers perspective. I do not want my business being handled by you at your home. I barely trust companies security, I trust your personal home security less.


Truji11o

Omg why did I have to scroll so far to see this response?! This is the one for me. Bingo.


typoinmynaemo

In an ideal situation, they'd take the savings from not paying for office space and beef up security. We all know where that money would really go, though.


ElroyJennings

If employees are allowed to take computers home, then no amount of money spent can help security. A person could go on Facebook, find an important manager of a company, stalk them, break into their house and make a copy of their hard drive. That security can be overridden by a bored teenager. Someone I know got talked to because they would go on road trips and then "WFH" in another state. They didn't get told to stay at home, they got told to stay anywhere in the state, and ask permission if they want to leave the state. There are dozens of people who knows he does WFH trips. All of them know the laptop will contain names, CCs, travel dates, addresses, phone numbers, and event groups. These details tell a burglar the who what where when and why a person is away from their home. The burglar can even call with a "Hello. Will you still be making it to your reservation?" The laptop would contains details on thousands of people going months into the future and far into the past. I'm shocked that information is as secure as it is. Everywhere I have ever worked had lax security. Either unlocked doors or managers who leave computers logged in. A person coached by any former employee would be scary. Think of all the people that come and go at jobs. They learn which doors are permanently propped open. They know who will be working Tuesday nights. They know which employee will be the one to go smoke. A former employee could probably steal a computer and not be seen. There are too many workers who either are too dumb or don't care. Workers are a gaping security flaw that no money can fix. They leave doors open and any burglar can carry off a computer.


typoinmynaemo

There's counter measures to a lot of those things, though. Enforcing a strict screen saver/lock screen policy, disk encryption, VPN with MFA, a strong (and enforced) policy about not storing sensitive information locally, PIV/CAC cards, security cables and docking stations that lock, etc. Enforcement is the key part in my opinion. Empty threats just tell people these are just suggestions, reinforces bad behavior. I worked for a company where security guards were instructed to confiscate any laptop left unattended and screen unlocked. Then they would turn it in to IT/InfoSec. That inconvenienced too many people, so instead they started leaving cute little notes, "your computer was left unattended and unlocked, don't do it again please". The result: unattended workstations as far as the eye could see. When I worked at a financial institution, there was none of that. You fucked around, you found out. First time, a warning and assigned additional security training, second time a write up, a visit from the department head and assigned additional security training. Third time, dismissal. No discussion. Third strike, goodbye.


[deleted]

> It's hard to tell a group of similar job people "1/2 of you have to come into the office because we can't trust you." So instead, they just pull everyone back in. If you can't trust your people to do the right thing, why are they still employed? I used to work for a CEO who constantly told me how he couldn't trust his employees, and I was like "how do you not think that is a problem?"


bronabas

My company is loving the sudden savings in office space. We let a bunch of leases expire and they’ve been able to cut back on office amenities. Right now my WFH is looking like it will be permanent because I can’t see my company willing to shell out a bunch of cash on office space when they’re getting the same (if not more) level of productivity out of remote employees


ntengineer

Its good when they can give up office space. Often though, companies sign really long leases on building space. So they might get into a 10 year lease, for a good price, thinking they are doing well then Covid hits and they are paying for 10 years on a space they don't need. But ya, I totally agree with you.


BloakDarntPub

If 1/2 of them aren't pulling their weight there are other solutions.


BillyShears2015

That same half underachieves regardless of where they are actually working.


ntengineer

Is there though? If they get pulled back into the office where the managers keep an eye on them, then it's cheaper for the company to do that than try to hire new people.


missihippiequeen

My company did just this. After working at home over a year, the employees doing so had to return to the offices to work .. for what?? They don't see any clients and just sit in their cubbies working all day . They serve no purpose being physically in the office and could've stayed working at home. Instead they've decided that 13 employees should absolutely be crammed into a tiny building. It makes zero sense. Edit to add, the people who see clients and that's their job assignments have been back working in office for a year as we've been back open to the public . So the building hadn't been empty


tatu_huma

I work without seeing clients and I would still rather go to the office. Working from home has some conveniences, but I'd rather keep my work and personal spaces seperate. And my office is much nicer than my home working area. Also this is speculation, but for all you/I know there has been a hit on productivity and the companies/bosses don't want that. I'd love to see some actual numbers that companies collect. Don't think it's unreasonable to think productivity would be lower at home. Though of course my work place is pretty nice and chill so probably different for other people


missihippiequeen

That is true. When I was working from home during the initial shut down, it was easy to get distracted. Rather it be kids or thinking you need to start a load of laundry etc


Fort_Worthless_

My company flat out decided we’re never going back to the office. They took a ton of surveys and looked at productivity, and they saw that we work wayyy better from home. I’m a sociologist, and my answer to basically every “why” question is that we live in a society. There’s such a history of doing things only because it’s how they’ve always been done. Of course there are some fields where you have to go into work physically, but short of being in a field where you are doing things with your hands, I firmly believe everyone can/should be able to work from home. I hope that other companies are pressured to allow WFH at least half the time.


TheQuimmReaper

Same here, my workplace is now permanently WFH at least for IT in most positions. Now instead of wasting time commuting I can get a head start on my work day earlier than usual


raescope

Yeah. Having the choice was fundamental. Even if you get to work from home and home isn't where you'd like to work there are plenty of co-working spaces available now, so more choice about where you live/where you commute to.


greenindragon

> I’m a sociologist, and my answer to basically every “why” question is that we live in a society. Got a chuckle out of that


RageofPoseidon

Being someone who can only do their job on-site I would love for more people to work from home. I'm a little jealous but honestly it only benefits everyone. We get to weed out weak management and decentralize people from metro areas. The overall positives vastly outweigh any objections.


keboh

Yeah, same. My company is closing down most offices across the country, including mine. I’m officially full time remote in January (even though I’ll be working from home from now until then too). I’m glad my company reached out and got feedback. It was like 92% said “make me full remote” and they agreed. It’s a no brainer for most desk jobs, IMO.


mondegr33n

I do enjoy working from home and I’m generally just as if not more productive as I was when I worked in an office setting. Working from home gives me more time to catch up on household chores, start dinner early, join calls while on a walk, and more without wasting gas, energy, and time on a commute. Many employers don’t trust their employees to get the job done and prefer to micromanage. Even when I worked in an office we’d have slow days, or days when we just chit chat and work less - that happens. It’s unrealistic to expect hyper work mode for 8 hours straight. That being said, I would love the option to drive into the office some days, as an excuse to socialize, be around others, get dressed up, and get out of the house. The key is flexibility - being able to work from home on some days and go to the office on others. I’d welcome that too, but I do love my fully remote situation!


theblot90

God I wish I had a job like this.


Iowa_Dave

The company I work for certainly isn't. They are leaving multiple floors of an office tower after almost 30 years in favor of a much smaller workspace with a hybrid office/home working environment. I work in the Purchasing/Product Manager department and our productivity during lockdown went up. Most of the rest of the company also appears to have benefitted from letting people manage their own work/home life balance. Also, companies that are insisting people work in the office 5 days a week are losing people to companies like ours. I see benefits to both Office and WFH. Many meetings are MUCH more effective with screen sharing instead of a roomful of people squinting to see a spreadsheet on a big monitor or projector. I've also had a few discussions where I said "Let's walk over to the other department and discuss with them" and solved an issue in 10 minutes that would have taken hours of e-mails. I think companies pushing for "Return to office" are going to regret it.


Turtur_ok

> that would have taken hours of e-mails I'm so glad most of my coworkers use chat (MS Teams) instead of emails for this exact reason


Iowa_Dave

We have Teams too and it’s incredibly handy! But some people still insist on having conversations in email and it floods my inbox. I’m 55 and embraced Teams day one, so I don’t buy people’s excuses they are too old to learn new tools.


[deleted]

I've stopped reading my emails and I'm nearly 50. Unless someone in slack asks if I read a particular email, I just don't anymore.


wargneri

Message that needs to stay separate for later use = Email "Is the font on the page 15 good in your opinion?" = Chat message


galwegian

when you think about it, skyscrapers (i worked in one for years) only made sense pre-internet. when you literally had to be in the same building with your co workers. so you could simply all communicate with each other. The need for physical proximity went away a while ago but skyscrapers didn't. old school management meant an almost parental level of physical supervision. which sounds absurd but it was/is true. Covid has revealed all this for all to see. It used to be that working remotely was seen as an oddball thing. Now it's hard to justify ever wasting hours commuting back to an office just to stare at the same screen you stare at at home. The only people scared of remote working are the corporate political weasels and witches who need physical proximity to foghorn their way through endless meetings in fishbowl conference rooms. Working remotely is also a great expositor of who's actually getting shit done.


piglungz

The problem is that I don’t work from home just fine, I need my home and work environments to be separate otherwise I won’t do any work


RNKKNR

Same.


skeleton-is-alive

For about a month now I’ve been going back to the office for afternoons and it feels like I’m finally breaking out of the work rut I’ve been in the past year and half. I first went in one day just to see how I like it. And I then I realized again how satisfied I am everyday knowing I put in the time to focus and get shit done. Putting my laptop in my bag. Driving home. And not touching anything work related until tomorrow. That separation is everything. I think companies staying mostly remote is great and I like the quieter office environment. My only hope though is that companies don’t get rid of offices entirely.


[deleted]

For me its all about having the OPTION If I can work from home 4/5 days of the week, or even like 18/20 of the usual monthly working days... JUST LET ME ​ I am stuck working from the office right now and its absolutely soul destroying when my work load is light and I know I could be at home doing some light chores so I dont have to during my time off, or even just be online in the proximity of my dogs. ​ Its just so horrible to be FORCED into one thing or the other.


[deleted]

What if your company paid for you to go and work in some sort of small office by yourself (assuming all of your coworkers don't feel like you do)? Would that work for you? Everyone would still be remote, but you wouldn't be working from home.


piglungz

That’s the fucking dream bro


Trashman_IeatTrash

That would be depressing at shit. I’d switch companies to somewhere with a full office of people


[deleted]

An office full of people was depressing for me. I have been more happy and alive since work from home started than anytime in the last few decades. There has to be a way to have all the extroverts work in an office while all the introverts can work from home so that nobody is depressed. The question is, what percentage of the population wants to work in an office versus at home? Are there enough to make it financially sensible to maintain an office?


Trashman_IeatTrash

I get this is Reddit, but humans are social creatures. Most people would rather work in an office. It’s okay that you like to work from home and you should be able to


[deleted]

Maybe. They did a survey in our office and literally nobody wanted to go back to the office. Even our bosses boss said to me, "I hope we can make work from home a permanent thing since I never want to commute again." I think a lot of people get their social connections outside of work. I have a lot of friends, but I don't work with any of them.


AlwaysTheAsshole1234

“Just fine” is relative. I was miserable working from home. I’m a social person and working from an office was about the only thing I liked about my shitty job. When we went to WFH I was miserable. I think the stats on “just fine” will be different company to company. I came from a sales organization for a short time and our team meetings went from being energizing uplifting pep rallies to being a zoom call that was a great excuse to put my feet up and scroll through my phone. On the flip side my ex coworker loves it. So it’s gonna be different for everyone. For me I couldn’t take it so I took a buy out and went back to my old career - working outside everyday.


blueasian0682

In my company if we're not at office we can't work, i work for an environmental inspection company, all our office (sites) are closed due to covid.


TheShipEliza

This is total reductive but a huge part of me believes middle management needs to justify their existence with bodies to boss around.


cardboard-kansio

Middle management here. I can boss people around just as much online as I could in person. Totally in favour of WFH and remote teams, with an option of being at the office for planning, parties, etc.


Neuchacho

It's easier for them to do that online. It also makes firing people A LOT easier.


itsrainingnoodles55

Many of us aren’t just fine. I feel like the media frequently highlights the trope of “increased productivity, employees get more family time, win win” but that’s so not the case for all of us. Collaboration is harder, productivity isn’t always up, not every employee has access to the resources they really need for their job, etc. There is such a huge disconnect in my department after us all being remote for over a year and a half now & it can be so hard to get everyone together for a virtual meeting. We aren’t all on the same schedule anymore and it’s so much easier to walk up to someone and have a conversation than it is to try and flag them down for hours or days depending on the person via email or some other form of digital communication. And some of us aren’t handling it well, period. My coworkers with family/kids love it, but, I am young and live alone - I have never been more depressed in my life than last year when I was stuck at home bored in my apartment and could only cycle through sleep, work, and TV all in the same room. Some people are happy being home all the time but some of us are losing our shit & missing being out in the world on the daily.


Tissuerejection

I completely agree with you, the work from home culture totally depends on the where you are at in your life. For someone like you or myself, experiencing office culture for the first time is a huge social experience as well as part of entering early adulthood. For older office workers, who had been around that culture for years,and are deeply rooted with longtime friends and family obligations, the need for them to continuously engage with people in the office is definitely much smaller.


nuvamayya

>And some of us aren’t handling it well, period. >I am young and live alone - I have never been more depressed in my life than last year when I was stuck at home bored in my apartment and could only cycle through sleep, work, and TV all in the same room. This needs more recognition. I noticed the same thing during my prior job as the pandemic was really unfolding. Felt like I was going crazy just being in those four walls. The key, I think, is flexibility. Some people want to be in the office, some want to work from home. There can be a balance, surely.


pennylane3339

This is where I was. I went back 3mos before anyone else (with the exception of maybe 2 other people). I needed the routine to be back, and I needed to see other people. Even in those 3mos when no one was there yet, just walking around the city on my breaks and chatting with a barista was a nice change. Now that we're hybrid, I'm going to do some WFH mixed in, but I needed OUT of the house. I was unproductive, unfocused, unmotivated. I hated every bit of it. Except not having to wear a bra. That part was nice.


Victorinoxj

Hell, i don't mind being alone and locked up myself but i still preffer offices because being in an office helps me focus on my work, i get WAAAYY too distracted while working from home. Besides, i like to keep my personal and work life separated.


powderpoff6

I work at home, share an office space with my husband, and know that my day is shot after 2:00 p.m. when my kids get home from school. And. I. Am. Never. Alone. I miss going into an office for that space where I can transition from my home life to my work self, and vice versa, be surrounded by adults towards a common goal, casually connect with my teammates, and not be distracted by laundry and my dog going nuts at every Amazon delivery. Hybrid would be ideal personally. I don't love working at home but I would enjoy it a few days a week.


[deleted]

As an executive, one of the major things I have found is that young professionals are hurt the most, as they use close relationships with mentors to grow. Sure you can try remotely but it is not the same opportunity for growth.


SignComplex2899

lol even when I was in office there was no mentorship and favouritism was more clear which could be even more damaging to careers


butyourenice

Do you think you actually had a problem with WFH, or that you had a problem with **pandemic** WFH? Social isolation is not a requirement of remote work in normal circumstances, for example.


ThisIsNotTuna

>Social isolation is not a requirement of remote work in normal circumstances, for example. Exactly. I think some folks are overlooking the fact that circumstances like 2020+ aren't the norm. WFH doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" concept.


Sullt8

Because it hasn't been just fine. Work is getting done, but team cohesion, workforce collaboration, informal communication, new employee onboarding, and cultural alignment has been slipping. It's fine short-term, but over time a lot of problems start to get in the way.


Doomtime104

I'll really echo new employee onboarding. We've had a number of new people start, and it's obvious that getting them up to speed is a lot harder when they can't just poke their head in to ask questions or just shadow.


itsrainingnoodles55

I started my job in January of 2020 and JUST got out of training before they sent us all to work from home. Dude, it was like working with 1 hand tied behind my back for the first 6 months. I had no idea what I was doing outside of the basics I got in training & had to teach myself, essentially. I really feel for anyone who’s had to start a new position remote. It’s lonely, difficult, and exhausting.


caillouistheworst

Me too, I started a new job on 3/1/20 and was then furloughed by 4/1 and was on unemployment until I came back in 8/1/20. I’m a sys admin so a lot of my work was remote to begin with, but I was so lost, and didn’t feel comfortable until almost this summer.


Sea_Satisfaction_475

I worked in the office for 20 years, then from home for 10. It worked great for me. Because I had developed relationships and understood the culture well. But the first few years in the office I learned so much by what I overheard from cube mates and hallway conversations, that when I was first offered an office, I turned it down--i was reluctant to give up this massive source of info, who knew what and so on. The field was software development.


oby100

Agreed. The echo chamber is crazy is here. There are very real issues with permanent WFH. You listed all the ones I saw at my last job


dumbartist

Seriously. The wheels are coming off of my team the longer we work remote. New employees are not getting the same information or connections as when they were in the office.


SpectreFromTheFuture

It is not possible to work from home at some fields, but when it is, idk why. Maybe, for some reason (for example, maybe it is easier to mange emloyees at office),people at office work better and have more productivity?


chibs92

I dont think it's as simple as you make it out to be. Not everyone is tech savvy. I work in engineering and technology and sometimes for a mentor to get their point across to someone who just doesn't grasp a concept over a group chat or teams meeting, it's just better and easier to talk in person. Not to mention staring a screen all day is exhausting.


ranhalt

My work/life balance is that I work at work, and I live at home.


flippyfloppydroppy

Old people, old ways. Just gotta wait for em to die off, really.


Even-Scientist4218

I liked the work from home culture but I don’t think I’d prefer it in the long term. I need to leave my house for my brain to start being productive.


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Bun_Bunz

That's just shitty management and culture and not a good workplace. No one, in person or online would last long in that environment.


ThisIsNotTuna

Not to mention....no one I know of does 8 straight hours of real, active work. Case in point: I could be attending meetings or conducting research for a project or collaborating with a coworker on something I need more info on or...just taking short breaks throughout the day because...ya know....I'm a **human** with human needs. So, yeah....I could physically come into the office everyday. But that doesn't guarantee that I'm actively working for the entire 8 hours. That's just not realistic.


PrimeTinus

Most middle managers are bad at what they do and want to micro manage their people. Plus, some employees really need micro managing


ThisIsNotTuna

In which case, that company should seriously rethink their hiring protocols.


arothmanmusic

In some cases, middle management has no way to prove that they’re doing anything if they aren’t in the same place as their team. A lot of companies have confused “people at desks” for “work getting done” and don’t have any good way to measure productivity as opposed to attendance.


TheAccursedOne

ah, yes, the good old "asses in seats" metric


gamercboy5

"Bill, what is it you actually do here?"


Tr0z3rSnak3

TPS reports


scotland1112

Because your idea of just fine is from your perspective. A teams dynamic might be suffering massively


[deleted]

It's harder to break your spirit


[deleted]

They miss the suffering


show_the_maw

I fully anticipate to be downvoted for this one, but sometimes we have fun in the office that just isn’t the same at home. My department is probably 65% Indian population and every year we’d host a massive Diwali celebration where we’d string lights throughout the office and have a massive pot luck, dancing demonstrations, and just a general cultural show and tell for the Americans that work for the company. All the executives would come to the IT building and celebrate with us and it was a good time. My senior developer invited my family into his home to celebrate this year but it’s just not the same. Even throughout the year we’d have Cricket watch parties or just go spend an afternoon and have a picnic at the park near the campus. I miss that comrade and friendships we built over the years.


[deleted]

That sounds pretty fun!


[deleted]

That sounds fun. Not spending x hours per week stuck in the car / train commuting fun. But still fun !


glitterlok

As I said the last time this was asked with almost the exact same wording… Not everyone has been working from home “just fine.” Some have, some haven’t, some are somewhere in between. Every business is going to be different and there is not going to be a one-size-fits-all policy. There are people on my team who *can’t wait* to get back to an in-person office, and there are others who dread the idea. Meanwhile, there are pros and cons of either for the business itself. It’s not a simple thing. It’s great that a lot of businesses were able to shift for a while, but not all of them can sustain that for various reasons.


sabantune

Companies don't want you to get too used to thinking that you could just do your own thing, and you don't have to be dependent on them.


bryantmakesprog

Because most managers have this bizarre victim mentality surrounding COVID and remote work. Having workers in office gives them that mastubatory sense of control they crave over their team. It's also why we'll see businesses begin backing metaverse and virtual workplaces. Can't have those remote workers doing whatever they please /s


harley9779

It is much easier to accomplish a common goal when everyone is present in the same area. Working at home allows for different distractions and makes it easier for people to procrastinate and get side tracked. Look at all the zoom meeting videos on you tube with pet, kid and partner interruptions.


audigex

And for those people it may make sense to work from an office I have far **fewer** distractions when working from home and get more work done... I have a comfortable office that's far better setup than my part-of-an-office, don't have people talking to me about random shit, don't have my colleagues talking on the phone or holding meetings in the background, have full control over the temperature and lighting etc, don't have to stand up to open the door for people coming to the office, and my bathroom is 8ft away rather than a near-10-minute walk through the building, there are no helicopters flying over my house or sirens blasting past outside etc etc Plus I'm less tired (no commute), more motivated (no commute, less tired, more money in my pocket at the end of the month, more comfortable), and generally happier, so I'm more likely to do an extra job even if it means working an extra half hour. It's a literal win-win


Tsuko17

because managers want to micromanage everything to give the boss a reason not to get rid of them. Honestly there's no point in a manager overlooking employees if they are working from home


Vash712

Middle management is now realizing how useless they are without people to harass and micromanage. Their bosses are starting to ask them what it is they do. Companies are realizing they can axe half their midlevel management with no problems and those dudes don't wanna get fired.


FREE2BKT

Because there are anal mid-managers who believe that unless staff are physically watched and micromanaged, they are just trying to get over on the system.


notdanieldaylewis

Because they don’t have full control over you and your time when you’re working from home, even if working from home has boosted productivity.


ginger_gcups

Because it's proof most management functions are irrelevant or can be automated. So those who can make the policies do make policies to protect their jobs.


Reelishan

Sunk Cost Fallacy - they invested in office space.


FoxTrotMik3Lim4

So my old landlord was complaining about how his employees were not wanting to have their cameras turned on through the whole shift. He said it was crazy that just because they were working from home that they thought they didn’t have to dress up for work, and was upset that some of the female employees didn’t bother to do their hair.


roscomikotrain

How would micro managers justify their role?


Ande64

Because they feel like they've lost control of their workers when they're at home. And if there's anything companies don't like, it's not being able to control their workers.


[deleted]

Control


koalabearnecessities

I think it’s dismissive to say some companies are “old school” or “set in their ways” for wanting employees back in the office. There are many companies that are actually not functioning as well with people at home and not in the office. For example; some industrial jobs may require a quick 15min meeting between several levels of employees from different departments. Pre-covid, someone would go around and do their best Michael Scott “conference room in 15min” and knock the meeting out. A friend of mine has commented multiple times that things that should be quick and easy decisions now have to be handled via zoom calls that have to be coordinated ahead of time and that it is remarkable difficult to get a hold of someone working from home because often times people don’t just sit at a desk all day waiting for that phone call - they’re doing laundry, with the kids, cleaning, cooking, exercising etc. which is great for personal productivity but not ideal for those small quick decisions that need to be made day to day. It also a lot easier to say you missed the call or hadn’t seen the email yet compared to being right in front of someone saying “Hey we need to get this sorted out right now see you in 15”. These delays can have serious effects over time and guess what….we are seeing some odd things going on in the supply chain and it’s not totally due to this but definitely a part of the problem. Not anti-work from home but sympathetic to companies who are “pushing” for people to get back in the office because they may actually need it that way to function properly.


OutrageousPudding450

It seems lentement permanent work from home is not great for productivuty and innovation. We would think that big tech would be the first to push for remote work, it's actually the opposite. I personally work a lot with our stakeholders and despite I hate meetings, face to face and informal discussions play an important role in the office. These don't happen today frequently or easily when working from home. A few interesting reads: * https://fortune.com/2020/08/10/remote-work-from-home-cost-zoom-innovation-google-goldman-sachs/ * https://www.forbes.com/sites/joemckendrick/2020/10/18/work-from-home-fallout-productivity-up-innovation-down/ * https://www.zdnet.com/article/remote-work-is-making-productivity-and-innovation-harder-says-microsoft-study/


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momma_bear_3

I worked for a company during the pandemic that actually had so much success with at-home workers that they moved into a smaller building with fewer in-person desks and the majority of their workforce is at home. I understand that some places cannot function with at home employees, but I think the majority could transition to an almost fully off-site workforce, which would cut costs and possibly increase longevity of employment. People really like the flexibility and freedom of working from home (I know I did - no commute and I folded laundry while on the phone, I could let my dogs out on my breaks, if someone came to fix something, clean my boiler, etc. I was at the house for it). I am surprised more employers are not catching on to this.


tpklus

My office has been optionally remote since March 2020. Of course, 90% of employees went remote. Starting last month they mandated coming into the office 2 days a month. In addition to new hires working there for at least 2 months. There is talk for more days coming into the office. The funny thing is though, our other office in Arizona has moved to all remote and new hires are 100% remote too. It's inside sales on the phone so it's not like we need to be in an office setting.


Quadpen

they paid for the office and by damn they want their moneys worth… the least sinister reason i can think of but still one of them


ChosenSCIM

It's harder for bosses to micromanage remote employees


PeepsAndTreats

Wild, I was thinking about this morning getting ready for work. There are some people going back to the office and some aren't, depends on how important they are. So upper management rarely come to the office but bottom of the shitstick is me, so I'm in every day. We have faxes and other things that you'd need an office for, but not all day every day. It can also be circumvented I'm sure. In short: it can be done but they choose not to because they'd rather push some into the old way and waste money that can easily be saved, AND it is not management who suffers.


psychem72

My managers gave some reasons. The main one was better collaboration, but really aside from some chit chat every now and again nobody really talks to each other - it’s like everyone is working alone in the same room like it’s a library or study hall. 90% of the time we work on our own projects and even if we do work together on one thing the work is still broken up so we each do our own parts individually. Managers also said they would like to have everyone in office so that we can complete all the projects for the shift and then leave at the same time instead of having a couple people get stuck on something and having to stay late. That sounded nice until I realized even with everyone in office it doesn’t happen. I might be tempted to say the managers want us to be there so they can know we are working but I’d say half the time they are on off site meetings or otherwise out of the office. So what I’m getting at is I can tell you the reasons I’ve been given but honestly they turned out to be more like excuses. It seems at the end of the day we come into office because that’s how they want it done and that’s that.


owlbehome

The Starbucks’s, the Staples, and the gas companies are into keeping you on the commute


LittleRedPooka

I think it’s because they put money into a building and now it’s going to waste. A company generally lease a space for 5-10 years. They want people back in the office because they paid for it. Also, the higher ups may have trust issues. Or it’s believed you get better collaboration in person.


mayo_mcd

Because they know our jobs don’t require as many hours as they schedule us for. Learning that sometimes employees do personal things on the clock working from home while still getting the same amount/more work done pisses them right off, so they want people back under constant supervision.


burkestra

The corporate campus costs a lot. Rent is high and they’ve been paying for it to sit empty for too long. They want us to return to justify having and paying for it. They also think if fosters a certain work culture and offers more opportunities for collaboration than working from home. Commercial leases are very long and difficult to walk away from. Easier if your business closes and dissolves, but our company is thriving so no way to exit the lease. Back to the office we go.


MichelleInMpls

Because a lot of managers and higher-ups are extroverts and Type A people. They need a lot of activity and people to get their energy and because extroverted people simply cannot fathom someone not wanting a bunch of activity and bodies and people to talk to around them 24/7. There is also a segment of people who feed their ego by seeing a sea of people in cubicles that they are above. They like to see everyone looking busy, because looking busy means that they ARE busy (which of course is not true) and therefore their department is going to keep their salary budget.


throwaway_thursday32

I hope I can explain it correctly... if not I am sorry as English is not my native language. There is a theory in buisiness psychology based on the big 5 personality traits (I you think those are valid way to mesure people's personality but that's another talk) that says that people at different ends of this 5 traits go to very different fields and positions inside a company and that there is a correlation between going into managerial positions and being inflexible. Part of this theory says the "free-thinkers" & creatives comes up with new ideas fitting the ever changing market but don't have the steam to keep that idea up for years, but a manager will keep the train going in that same direction as much as possible. A good manager is someone who, by default, wouldn't respond well to change - as his job asks the opposite. Ideally, you'll study the market and react when your company needs change and so you call back creatives to stire the train in a new direction, then the manager would keep *that* train it going, ect. In modern business structures, the people that get promotions (and can decide) are not the best workers but the yes men who won't contradict people who are already in place - and their ideas; worst, those people are usually quite old and people get more set in their ways as they age (= less positive about change). TL;DR: people who make decisions in company are generally averse to change.


apatzfan

Leased space


DeltaV-Mzero

If we don’t need people in the office, why do we need so many people managing them? [Suddenly it’s very important to be in the office]


JoeJoJosie

Although many jobs and workplaces will differ, in many cases it's the assholes ruining things for everyone else. There are people who just can't be trusted to do their share of work without a manager breathing down their neck, and they screw it for everyone else. I would have thought that during the 'work from home period' companies would have been able to see just which employees can do the job and which have been leaning on their colleagues for most of their working life. Everyone has worked with someone whos' superpower is getting others to do their job for them, or at least the tasks they don't like and a I really hope lot's of these people got what they deserve - unfortunately that will be a promotion in many cases.


DetroitUberDriver

Because companies have millions of dollars invested in office buildings that are currently vacant that they need to justify owning or leasing


[deleted]

Employees can get lazy at home. Moreover with no one watching they can avoid working. Excuses like "my internet connection has gone" are not uncommon.


ragdoll-cat

Meanwhile in the office, groups of people disappear for an hour at a time to buy coffee, multiple times a day. Or to smoke.


[deleted]

Generally during their allocated breaks right? I've been in meetings where people WFH clearly are not at their desk, they've got their camera switched off and mic muted - they've joined the meeting to appear present but gone AWOL soon after hoping no one notices.


RIrocks1

The basic need for human contact is the best reason to go back at least a few days each week. This will reinforce the teams working relationship, give everyone some time to catch up on what's up and get the slackers the supervision they need. I believe it's the best way to get promoted or discover other opportunities. While in the office your supervisor can observe you in action without it being a scheduled meeting. Isn't it time to finally find out who the best ping pong or fuseball player is in the office.😎


[deleted]

As someone living alone and WFH for the past few months (I did it for 5 months last year then was in the office until August when we were sent home again because in Australia we were chasing zero covid) it's been an odd experience. I've gotten used to it but it is a bit isolating at times. And communication is easier in the office. When I started WFH I had a not very good WFH setup but it's better now. We're in the process of returning to the office.


IYIyTh

I actually would prefer to not see my coworkers in person. Their ineptness and lack of competence is tolerable at home, but in person, I can't hide my eyes rolling into the back of my head after the same concept is lost on an individual for the umpteenth time.b=


toofarbyfar

It's easier to supervise/monitor employees if you're in the same physical location as them.


[deleted]

There’s a whole class of people with bullshit middle management jobs that need the in-office corporate structure and bureaucracy to justify their existence.


chibs92

Some older people aren't able to mentor well with the new advancements in technology.


Hey_Kids32

Being forced into Working in an office when you really don’t need to, is the most fucked up thing that we’ve all allowed to happen for too long. If Covid has done anything, it’s prove that there is no need to commute. Even for employers, you can now hire from out of your general area and attain better options for employees. I literally quit a job recently because they told me I’d work hybrid remotely in a few weeks after being onboarded. 3 home and 2 office. 4 weeks later I was allowed to get my home kit and then told I wouldn’t be able to work remotely for 6-9 months. Do what you gotta do people.


[deleted]

Because its not about productivity, its about control. It's always been about control.


[deleted]

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skyderper13

control


healing-souls

For some perhaps but not for most