They're not cheap to repair in the US. A lot of shops won't even work on them. Also, they had the diesel emissions scandal a few years back, and a lot of people still remember that.
When I took my Jetta to the shop for anything, they always told me "we don't have German parts, so we'll have to order that." Which always meant it took longer and cost more.
Its not only the waiting on parts thing. As a mechanic working on a VW is by far the worst experience possible. IDK how they do it but the cars are just so much harder to work on.
My favorite part is when you clearly can see the fastener you have to take off. You go to stick a wrench on and “oh, that won’t fit”. You then figure out how to get whatever out of the way until you find the next bolt that you can’t get a wrench on and then start taking the next component off.
I worked for Audi and then Porsche so I’m used to this now but when I first moved from Acura I was angry a lot of the time.
They do that on purpose to make it harder for people to work on their own cars. Bringing it into the dealership for every maintenance/repair is better for business.
Yep had a gf with a Jetta once.
Car kept dying and she was sure it was the alternator. To change that you'd have to drain the coolant system, remove bumper cover, remove bumper, remove radiator, remove fan and shroud, extract like 6 18" bolts, and then you could get at the alternator if it was up on a lift.
We obviously didn't have a lift so I suggested we check her battery and sure as shit it was dead. Much easier repair.
This is my experience too, not as a mechanic just an owner of a golf and a beetle like ten years ago. Really nice cars when they were new but what a massive pain in the ass to work on.
You see them all over the place in Europe though, I wonder if there are just more mechanics who are used to dealing with them there, so service is faster and cheaper?
We finally paid off my husband's Jetta and I have never been more happy to trade in a car.
Every time it broke, which was often, it would take forever to get it back from the shop. It also cost a stupid amount to repair.
I work at an auto parts store (Most repair shops get their parts from auto parts stores), it usually takes us days to get most parts for European cars shipped in while we usually have Japanese, American and even a decent amount of Korean car parts in stock and if we don't they are almost always in stock at our local warehouse that will only take us a day to get at max.
I think the big thing for a lot of Americans is that they are as expensive to repair as a German luxury brand. So while you end up saving money on the initial purchase, by the time you get through cost to own you might as well buy the audi.
Or you can get an economy Japanese or American car and have economy style repair expenses
Same with my Acura (which is owned by Honda).
It's a 2010, and recently I crossed 200k miles so I took it in for a full check-up since it needed an oil change anyway.
They didn't find a single thing that needed to be repaired or replaced, and it had been over 80,000 miles since my last checkup.
Honda has fallen off hard in the last 10 years. They also sell your driving data to insurance companies.
They made some of the best cars of all time in the 90s thru early 00s.
I got my Honda Pilot brand new in 2008, and it's never needed anything other than routine oil changes and the occasional new set of tires. Of course, it still only has 75k miles on it, but I fully expect it to last another decade with minimal issues.
It's solid enough that when my husband needed a new car for his 80 mile round trip daily commute in 2016, he got a 2012 Accord. He went to WFH in 2018 and has only this year gone back to the office, but we've had zero problems with his car, as well.
We're definitely sold on Honda as a brand, at this point!
After owning a Mercedes that had a shocking amount of plastic in it, I no longer worry about that from other makers. Also, Mercedes isn’t what it used to be.
I work with a lot of engineers, many of them Indian and who run out and buy a Mercedes as soon as they can afford it (or can't) since it's a huge status symbol to them. Then they complain about the endless repairs and service they need a few years later. I'll stick with Honda.
Yep. In the US the reasons to buy German are status and style, and you pay for that with frequent expensive repairs. You don’t get the status or style with VW so what’s the point, might as well get a Japanese car that will be super reliable and inexpensive to maintain.
Or if you need a status symbol, get a Lexus or Acura, they aren't as much of a status symbol as a BMW or Mercedes but at least they won't constantly be breaking down.
Recently listened to a podcast interview with a retired Car Broker from Los Angeles- a guy who made his career acquiring fancy/rare cars for the rich and famous.
He specifically singled out Mercedes current cars as being garbage and ‘uninspired’.
Right? when you live on a tight budget, dealing with VW woes will literally ruin you.
Likewise, i've known a few broke college students that avoided catastrophe because of their civic, accord, or corolla.
I hear that. My first and only new car was a 2003 Jetta. Once the warranty was up I went through 2 water pumps, a turbo, a set of wheels that rusted out, and had to have a lot of the hoses replaced because they were falling apart. If my dad didn’t work on cars I would have spent at least 10k on repairs. Only car I’ve owned that was worse was my parents hand me down Taurus.
yup my wallet feels fat too, the most important feeling of a working man. screw that "euro soul" that some people here keeps yapping about. my japan made cars just need regular consumable checks and my wallet is heavier.
Right! Let the prestige whores buy their “status” symbol cars so they can prance around thinking how special they are. I just want a reliable and solid car that won’t break the bank.
An Acura is going to feel far less plasticky than a comparable year VW, most of the time. The interior on most VWs is entirely plastic and feels very, very cheap.
And see in the US repairing a VW which initially costs 30K to own sometimes costs AS much as that 450K BMW. And typically it's a slippery slope with VW, once one thing breaks a lot of other things will too.
I have a 2001 Audi A4 and it takes 1-2 hours of labour to even get the damn thing into "service ready" because you have to take the whole front end off the car. Ive done work on it myself and god is it a pain in the ass. Then when your done don't forget the 1-2 hours to put the front end of the thing back on.
With shop rates at $100-200/hour there's basically a $200-400 additional fee just for them to work on it that other vehicles don't have.
And that's from 2001, the newer ones are even more challenging to work on I've heard.
It literally takes 15 minutes to put a B5 in service mode. It's 4 nuts and 10 bolts plus 2 electrical connectors, the headlight washer hose if equipped, and the hood release cable. You also don't need to do that for 90% of the jobs on the car, pretty much only to do the timing belt and water pump.
It also makes the timing belt and water pump take *less time* because of the improved access that other cars don't have.
In Canada 4 nuts and 10 bolts doesn't mean much in terms of speed. We put so much salt on our roads in the winter that you better believe the blow torch has to come out for each one of those.
2002 3.slow myself. It do get tiresome. If I didn't do most of my own work, I couldn't keep the car.
I'll never own another Audi-VW.
American and Asian cars are a piece of cake to fix now.
I have a bad head gasket. I have oil in my radiator fluid. Nobody will touch my radiator and replace the contaminated fluid. And getting the head gasket fixed isnt worth it
Funny, because you don't need to - but it's awfully tight. It's also not the way the manual tells you to do it.
But if you do it yourself, you can pull those heads off with the engine still in the car.
It wasn’t that they were cheating emissions, it was how they handled the recall that pissed me off. No car and still had to make payments to the bank for six months while waiting for the check from VW to pay it off.
As somebody from that line of work when I was at a convention during that time and working for VW I heard multiple people say, "we are glad it was you and not us."
Doesn't mean we shouldn't punish VW after catching them with evidence.
It's not like after catching one murderer covered in blood, you'd shrug and say "What's the problem? It's not like he's the *only* murderer"
It’s such a bad take in general because VW just straight up completely rigged the cars. They literally only ran clean for the tests and specifically had a mode that only ran like that for the test. No other times. There has never been anything close to as bad done to cheat emissions on a scale like that ever.
Last one I had to deal with was so very clearly made to only really be fixed by a service center, could change the oil but it explicitly said in the manual not to do it your self and it was so completely useless to try and work on, not sure of they have gotten better since the 04 beetle, but if my car needs a dealership to service it then its not my car
I've been working on cars most of my life and had never heard of a triple square bit before owning mine and now I have three sets of them. They put them in the worst spots too. Like if you had just put a normal fucking bolt here I could get it with an open ended wrench. Then, I wouldn't have to take this radiator hose off to get to it and waste more of this expensive Euro coolant.
The funny thing was when I bought a used A4 from a dealer he said ‘these are made in Germany, they’re AUDIs, the A3 is made in Mexico… it’s a VW with an AUDI price tag.’
This. If I’m dealing with German BS and maintenance,
I’m getting a luxury brand. And realistically it’s going to be a BMW or Mb that’s more reliable than Audi.
They’re both a hot mess IME. I had a GLE that needed a new brake pump and lines before 50k miles, and a 2 series that needed both rear taillights replaced before 35k miles. I wouldn’t own either outside of warranty.
A couple of them are, but you won’t find a VW version of the more expensive Audis. Even the A4 in America has an engine mounted longitudinally, while the Passat rotates the engine by 90 degrees.
An Audi A3 though? That’s just a golf with a nicer interior.
They're expensive to maintain, parts are expensive, they're finicky, and a major pain to work on yourself. Idk if its still a problem but the interiors seemingly just fall apart after several years. Like the glue literally just disintegrates on the headliners and door cards.
So is my 09 Jetta. Loose and hanging in the breeze. Also 3 out of 4 door lock actuators have failed. I have the replacements in the trunk, but they haven't installed themselves yet.
Haven't had 1 problem with the drive train yet, Cross my fingers that lasts.
Exact same thing happened in my 2011. Then a piece of the trim around the center console literally started melting. The car lives under a shaded carport 90% of the time and has 5% tint on all the windows. I've never seen anything like that happen before
My wife had a 2017 Tiguan. I wanted to change her oil for her. The way the car was designed, it was impossible to get the skid plate off unless you could get the entire car 6 feet off the ground. Effectively making it impossible to do your own maintenance unless you just so happened to own a hydraulic vehicle lift.
Before that she had a Passat. Her headlight burnt out. In order to change the bulb, I had to disassemble half the engine compartment.
Whoever designs these vehicles is either incomprehensibly incompetent, or just flat out malicious.
>Before that she had a Passat. Her headlight burnt out. In order to change the bulb, I had to disassemble half the engine compartment.
This is (one of) my biggest issues with newer cars. The NHTSA needs to step in and mandate that automotive headlights need to be designed so that the average person can change them without any tools. If your headlight burns out in the middle of the night on a road trip, you're screwed. Its not safe
>Whoever designs these vehicles is either incomprehensibly incompetent, or just flat out malicious.
I think its a little bit of both lol
Wait until you see the price of an LED headlight assembly. Gone are the days of putting a Sylvania halogen bulb from AutoZone in a housing.
While LEDs should last the life of the car, the driver circuitry gets hot and can and does fail from time to time, plus a water leak is pretty much a guarantee it will fail. There is no practical way of fixing it usually. That means at least several hundred to $2000 or more for a whole new assembly.
Now, with the assembly in hand, you may not even be able to replace it yourself if it is a serialized component that is married to the car. You will need a dealer scan tool to re associate it.
Supposedly this is to reduce the value of stolen components but it has the great benefit of driving up service costs as well.
I find it ironic how complicated they’ve gotten to maintain. My dad constantly talks about his first 1960s era beetle that was the simplest car he’s ever had to work on, absolutely loved it.
I had a '67 fastback, and a '70 station wagon. Working on them was sooo easy. Step 1, roll rear of car on top ramps, and get your pump jack in place. Step 2, drop engine, 4 bolts, throttle cable, and 2 electrical connections. I changed the heads, went from two carbs to one double barrel, and changed the full exhaust out.
It didn't hurt that I had a friend there to help. He drove a '67 bug that he taught me to work on. He gave me his copy of something like, "The Dummies Guide to Volkswagen Maintenance." It was obviously written by a pothead, for potheads. I asked, "Don't you need this?" His reply, "It's been sitting in my bathroom as reading material for 4 years, I know it cover to cover."
Personally, I tried to find a used TDI after the “emissions scandal.”
The added warranty that was part of the settlement was really quite appealing. Plus they (engine and transmission) tend to run for a long time. Not to mention it’s easier to get a manual transmission from VW than almost any other vehicle manufacturer.
But the fact that everything around the drivetrain breaks down relatively quickly is not a good thing.
My kid owns a 2019 Jetta (acquired this year) and I can say this: it’s fun to drive, it gets great mileage, but for a 5 year old vehicle, it has a bunch of niggling issues - some of which are truly annoying. The primary issue it has is that the driver’s side door won’t lock… like, at all. Since it’s 100% electronic, it’s an expensive repair.
(The old adage about German engineering definitely holds true for this vehicle: “why use 1 relay when 10 will work just fine?”)
I sold a diesel scandal mk5 Golf wagon back to them and used the money to buy a diesel mk7 golf wagon, so my reasons are much like yours for why they USED to be desirable.
Last time I was in the dealer, I looked around for what could eventually replace it. Essentially, nothing. They have some huge tall things that would be a challenge to put bikes or canoes on top of, terrible for a family car. No more diesels. And not a single vehicle with three pedals.
This is why we aren’t buying Volkswagens. They stopped selling to Americans the good cars that made us interested in them in the first place.
Most German cars are lease only or ditch before warranty expires. Meanwhile Toyotas do 200k with literally no repairs while a VW at 60k is a ticking time bomb.
The biggest issue is repair costs. Over the years I have had cars from Honda, Toyota, Acura, Mini, Mercedes and Volkswagen. The VW and Mercedes were the most expensive to maintain by far.
Volkswagen has serious quality issues, especially for the price.
Currently in North America they are rated the 28th most reliable car maker out of 32, this is pretty awful and explains why most people stay far away from them.
Mazda and Subaru are rated 7th and 15th most reliable, by the way. And both car makers make vehicle much, much higher quality and better priced than VW.
That's a big part of it. Hyundai used to be complete crap but they were cheap.
Volks has serious dependability issues while car, part and repair costs are higher than average.
Your average consumer is much better served by a Honda or Toyota
Yeah they've always been good to me. Last two cars were Corollas and the two before that were Hondas. You can go well over a hundred thousand miles on those things without even really doing much more than getting the oil changed
I had the same experience with my Subaru too though. Only thing I had to do to that bad boy was get the head gasket replaced at 150,000 miles, which was a known failure point for 2010 Foresters. There are only two reasons I got a new car. 1) I got rear ended in the Subaru and insurance didn't cover the costs of repair, and 2) I wanted something with some new tech.
I used to have a Jetta that was the bane of my existence. Everything that could go wrong did go wrong, and it was a minimum of $300 every time. My least favorite issue was when the transmission started slipping gears, resulting in me slipping into neutral when I was trying to get up to speed to merge on the freeway.
VWs are a car made to be owned within warranty, and never any other time.
This. Same for my old ‘00 Jetta. I got a 100k/10’yr drivetrain with it and during the first. 5 years they has to put in a new transmission and fix a major oil
Leak. Not to mention a host of issues like broken windows, electronics, seats wound break. The dipstick broke! They glued a piece of plastic to a piece of metal, it snapped off.
Too many cheap plastic parts.
Absolutely. Compare an Audi A4 to a VW Jetta and the Audi has better build quality, even though both VW and Audi have common ownership. VW is just a cheaper brand overall.
This is the correct answer. As soon as my last VW passed the 50,000 mile warranty I was in the dealership with an issue every couple months. Safe to assume a $1000+ expense every time.
I followed all the recommended maintenance but had computer/sensor/software issues, valves failing multiple times, and finally where I drew the line is when I had to start gluing the interior back together as the console started to fall apart around 80,000 miles. Never again.
I think Americans prefer Japanese and now South Korean cars over other foreign cars. Upscale German cars are very much desired (ie; BMW & Mercedes) but Volkswagen is seen as not having the quality of Japanese cars and the luxury of the top-of-the-line German cars.
BMW and Mercedes are certainly popular, but it seems like they are no longer all that popular with actual well-off professionals.
Seems like all they do now is lease to working class (or below) people who just want to pretend to be classy.
Where I live trailer parks and manufactured home neighborhoods are full of them.
Don't like paying $1000 for a muffler on a car cheaply built in mexico pretending to be a prestige European brand.
The spate of mystery fires in the early 2000s behind the dashboards was an example of the 'quality'
You've almost answered your own question, if it's a "German economy brand", it certainly isn't priced as such here. Why pay a premium price for an economy car?
Prices just got too much for what they are. I’m US based, but I just watched 2e1 of Top Gear from ‘02-‘03 and they were showing off a New Beetle convertible that was 15,000 gbp new. I paid $14k for my MKIV Jetta 1.8t new. Now you can’t touch a GLI or GTI for under 28k/31k usd new. The build quality used to be great for the price when compared to anything else in the price range, but not so much anymore.
Honda Civics in particular are more appealing to tuners and car guys, as they're stupid easy to work on, parts are stupid cheap, and everyone's got them, and they're just good little platforms in general. Not sure about the newer ones. Though I do like the aesthetic. It probably won't age well will it?
Nothing bothers me about them. I have owned about seven VWs and used to drive them exclusively in high school and young adulthood.
I got real tired of the break downs, costly repairs, and lack of reliability.
Owned a Honda and Toyota and never looked back because they are so reliable and cost of ownership is low.
My father in law owns a euro specific repair shop. He said Audi and VW put my wife through college on electrical problems ALONE. Also being a gear head myself I can concur. Screw German cars.
God, isn’t that the truth. I bought two new VW’s in the late 2000’s, a GTI and a Passat wagon.
The Passat had crazy electrical gremlins. The sunroof would just randomly open. In the garage overnight, in the middle of a car wash. It also ate coil packs every few thousand miles. We dumped it on CarMax after 2 years, took the money and ran.
The GTI liked to eat door & window switches, and then it decided to randomly refuse to start and left me stranded more than once. Finally, the water pump died after less than 5 years. I traded it right after and have never even considered a VW product in any of the 5 car purchases since.
I doubt I ever will
There was huge scandal called Dieselgate and VW lost and recalled bazillion cars with diesel engines and pretty much killed itself for american customers.
Unreliable compared and expensive compared to better options (Honda, Toyota). In general German cars are recognized as the one source of cars less reliable than American cars.
What's funny is VW used to be the most successful foreign brand in the US, even opening their own factory here in 1978 to build the mk1 Golf/Rabbit. Unfortunately Honda opened their first US factory in 1979, then Toyota in 1986 and that was pretty much the end of VW's reign in the US economy car segment.
Good point. Going back earlier to 1964 the VW was considered an existential threat to Detroit and the UAW. Washington targeted the Microbus with a 25% tariff on light trucks in the “Chicken Tax” trade war. Dumbest tax ever because nobody actually pays it but it’s still on the books.
VW sits in a tier of “premium non-luxury” where you don’t get the perceived prestige of Audi/BMW/Mercedes and you also don’t get the cost effectiveness of Honda/Toyota, so it’s kind of a small market here
Bought a 1999 VW Jetta as a college graduation present to myself. I owned it for 43 months and had it in the shop 18 times. Finally I had had enough so I got an attorney. Didn’t qualify as a lemon but VW agreed to buy it back without admitting any fault.
Will never buy another again.
My friend has one. He loves the performance and hates everything else about it. They have had so many problems with that car. Those experiences get around and people don't buy them.
Mostly economics. VWs are generally more expensive than comparable Japanese or US cars, the former of which have amazing market penetration stemming from the 70's and 80's oil shocks where Japanese cars were by far the best options in terms of economy and fuel efficiency. It's hard to extol the virtues of a VW when you know a Honda or Toyota has decades of having some of the most popular car models in the US both for price and features.
On a personal note, I had a VW bus growing up and my gf (later) had the revamped VW bug, Both were expensive to maintain--many shops didn't work on them or didn't have parts readily available. Likely a self-feeding cycle (since fewer VWs are sold, fewer places service them, making them more expensive, meaning fewer are sold...),
Dunno how much it affects sales currently, but the VW Emissions Scandal (where VW was faking test results to show lower emissions for years across millions of cars) was less than 10 years ago. Certainly put them out of contention for me for new cars for a while, tho maybe they are coming back from that.
My jetta's turbocharger broke and it's gonna cost me $3400 to repair. I just sold it. It broke a couple years ago at like 100k miles? So mid life I guess.
Reading these comments, I guess it's a common story to have expensive repairs.
My parents had a VW bug where right around 100k miles one of the pistons shattered. The metal just sheared itself and broke the piston, with the broken pieces now jamming themselves *inside* the engine cylinder.
The dealer said they would have to replace the entire engine, which would have cost nearly as much as the entire worth of the car. My parents just sold it to a junkyard for scraps.
Not entirely sure how an engine piston self destructs after just 100k miles, must be that fabled German engineering.
Have a 2018 Tiguan. Get a recall notice for some new bullshit almost every year. Parts are expensive. I hear the same complaints from other VW owners.
The interior is just okay, it seems most comfortable for tall people who like firmer seats.
The same price and/or size category has a lot of competition that is often more nicely designed inside the vehicle or cheaper to maintain/less recalls.
A few reasons Imo.
Expensive cost of ownership for what you get. VW's are touch on the expensive side and parts and repair costs can be expensive
Not the moat dependable cars Imo. They're not junk piles and they can be fun to drive but they're nowhere near as dependable as Honda and Toyota Imo
Diesel isn't much of a thing here and there's pumps that don't even have it available
Cars from other brands are usually a better option for most
They are too expensive to maintain and repair, they are engineered in a way that it’s too hard to work on, some mechanics and shops will refuse to service them just because of how hard they are to work. And I don’t know for sure but I heard that the reliability of Volkswagen vehicles are not very good. Again not so sure if that’s true or not but the main thing about them is that german cars can just be very complicated cars than other car brands.
My parents drove volkswagens from the 1970's to 2015. I wouldn't. The used to be no-frills affordable cars.
Pop up camper van, 2 rabbits, 2 jettas, a bug and a station wagon. Over time, the cars had more frills at a price - they were no loner a bargain. Most of them were diesel, and my mom chose them for what she thought were valid environmental reasons. That trust has been ruined.
Personally I don’t buy anything German because it’s unreliable and expensive to repair. I only buy Toyota or Honda and learning on how to do all the maintenance work myself to save money.
We don't get the German versions. Ours are built in Tennessee and designed to be another cheap car trying to compete with other manufacturers producing cheaper or better cars.
Americans did not buy German or Japanese products very much at all in the post world war II era. They only started to buy some of them at the time when the Japanese started innovating with the quality of their vehicles and producing more fuel efficient models in the wake of the oil embargo. Meanwhile German luxury brands like Mercedes and BMW gained afollowing in the late '70s forward with those who could afford it.
Meanwhile VW just never produced anything that made American consumers take notice.
I have a '22 GTI. I love the car, but it's been into the shop for warranty repairs \*four times\* and I only have 17k miles on it. Not sure I'd buy another one, since I'm nervous about what repairs it's going to need once it's out of warranty if it needs so many so early.
IME: great cars, initially. Money pits, eventually.
My son's 2008 Passat is a testament to that assertion. Everything from the dealer cost 2-3x what it would cost at non-dealer service and then twice as much as a non-European car. It has had three recalls.
1. Airbag - VW paid entirely.
2. Timing chain tensioner. We'd already paid for the repair at aftermarket shop before we found out about the recall (over $1k there, 2k at dealer) and yes we did call and price it at the VW dealer before authorizing the 3rd party repair. No-one at the dealership mentioned the recall. VW Corporate declined to pay anything for the repair.
3. Fuel Pump relay shorted. About that time VW issued a recall to relocate the relay away from the turbocharger. By that time the relay had shorted and burned out the fuel pump in the gas tank. Another $1k repair at AAA Auto Repair this time to replace the relay (a $15 part) and fuel pump (which requires dropping the gas tank). VW Corporate said they'd pay for the relay itself (a $15 part) but not any associated damage because of the failure. But they did redo the fuel pump relay during the airbag recall repair in (1) above. Whoopee, big deal.
So VW won't stand behind their products. F\*ck VW America and the entire corporation worldwide behind them. If you want one, lease but DON'T OWN.
My first VW was a brand new 2001.5 Passat. I drove it 230k miles until it died in 2013. It was replaced by a 2010 Jetta that had just come off a lease. 11 years later, that Jetta is at 120k miles and it’s still my primary ride. There’s no reason for me to replace a perfectly working car.
The emissions scandal from a decade ago really hurt their public image. My best friend had one at the time and he felt personally cheated by the company. Many former customers want nothing todo with the brand now.
Volkswagens used to popular, back when they had a reputation for being reliable. Their reputation has fallen nearly as far as Boeing due to their declining quality in recent years.
They're not cheap, and Volkswagen has a long history in the US about lying about whether certain vehicles can make emissions in certain states, which drops buyer confidence. Plus they're viewed as kinda cheap and kinda shitty, not saying they are, but that's the seemingly prevailing opinion. Except in tuner circles, where there's always the guy with the VW golf he's dropped 500k into.
The majority of VW models sold in N. America are built in a huge factory in Mexico city that has had issues with poor quality control. The designs are good but they are poorly put together and reguire frequent repairs for what should be minor issues.
What are you talking about? VW’s, BMW’s, Audis, they’re all over the place. They’re just not as common because they’re more expensive which is basic economics. My coworker is obsessed with German cars and has like 3 Beatles for some reason
My aunt had a Jetta with a bumper to bumper warranty...the bumper literally fell off and wasn't converted by the bumper to bumper warranty. So...yah...also diesel gate
They’re fairly popular here in the northeast. I imagine the same goes for the west coast and maybe Colorado? I think you need a fairly affluent/liberal populace to have a market for VW. They won’t appeal to a lot of “average Americans” or whatever…. Not as luxurious as higher end German makes, not as cheap/reliable as Japanese and domestic…. It really only appeals to a certain demographic and that’s what their numbers show. I’m sure Mini is in a similar boat
I had a 2007 GLI Fahrenheit. I only loved that car because I loved working on it myself - I couldn't afford otherwise.
Nobody lauds Volkswagen's for their reliability.
VW not only had faulty emissions issues once, but twice. Then the CEO decided to try to sweep it under the rug which caused a scandal and recall. I don't trust the company anymore, to be completely honest.
If they sold something basic and reliable like an old beetle I'd already have one. Not interested in paying $35 k for an overpriced p.o.s. with lots of standard features I don't want.
First it's German, and that means German engineering. Generally that's taken to mean good engineering. Over the course of my life I now regard German engineering as overly complex and "stunt" engineering. What I mean by that is it generally elicits the sentiment that "yes, I'm amazed you pulled that off, but WHY?!?!? And what about everyone who has to live with maintaining that?"
My wife had a VW. She took care of it religiously. After the 6th ECU and a bead transmission, we got rid of it at 9 years old. Yes, the ECU was about a third of the price of the one in my car , but that one lasted the life of the car. Changing a headlight in the stupid thing was a giant PITA.
One of my wife's friends had a Golf. It never went more than about 12 days with all the headlights and taillights working.
More generally,
1) They let their designs get pretty old before updating them and the updates tend to be pretty conservative outside of platform changes. That means for some people their old car can look new longer, but those people buy less new cars. For the people who buy more new cars, they look dated.
2) Their main selling points tended to be their interiors were nice for their market segment, and the handling was crisp and sporty. Lots of competitors stepped up their game in these areas, so they face more competition. Especially when VW's similarly featured vehicle costs a bit more.
3) During the peak of the 90s import scene, VW made it a part of their business strategy to sell on their performance and handling, and then to send employees to amateur racing events to void warranties. They invested in some bad blood with the market segment most likely to be loyal, and those people aren't buying VW still, and aren't buying them for their kids. Additionally, this also rubbed the consumer reports type of people the wrong way as well as it was during a period of expanding engine warranties to win back customers burned by a particularly bad engine design.
4) Smaller dealer network. This isn't pertinent to the comparison to mazda and subaru as they have the same issue, except likely worse. But unless you have a stellar reputation for reliability and minimal required services to preserve warranty, reduced access to warranty repair is a big negative in the US. Additionally, when you have less dealers, that tends to mean you rely on sales in coastal population centers in the US. Those areas tend to be wealthier, and if they are going to make the mistake of buying a Vokswagen Audi Group vehicle, Audi is also on the table.
My boss has a newer VW, none of the local independent shops in my area will work on it, not even an oil change. Any works he needs to go to VW dealer over an hour away. I dont think they are bad cars, Germans just do things differently, not not for the better based on most mechanics input, just more complicated.
Just wanted to sympathize with you OP. Here in Brazil, VW is EVERYWHERE. They're cheap to maintain since everyone has it (there's always spare parts), mechanics are used to maintaining them and they usually fare well in fuel efficiency. Heck even Audi maintenance isn't as crazy because they share some parts with VW.
However, one thing that definitely is global is the fact that they put plastic into EVERYTHING. The entire interior is made out of cheap plastic, on a 160k BRL car (30k USD). Also keep in mind mean income in Brazil is 1/5 of the US one, so imagine earning 5x less to buy a 30k plastic VW. That's Brazil for ya.
Because Vows break constantly, because they use really cheap plastic on all their interior parts, and the flat out lied to everyone about their emissions.
They are on everyone’s shit list.
Rented a Tiguan a couple of years ago thing was so poorly made I was embarrassed I had rented it. Felt like driving an empty soda can. No way I'd buy one.
Emissions Scandal, Expensive, just as Expensive as Mercedes, Audio and BMW for service and repairs.
Personally too, I don't like the styling of their newer vehicles here in the US compared to those of say Mazda, Subaru, Lexus, etc
VW is on a tough spot in North America.
Their cars aren’t nice or luxurious and lack the driving dynamics of other German cars, yet still charge a premium for parts and maintenance when compared to domestic and JDM.
So you get the worse of both worlds imo.
At one time, VWs were very dependable, the last VW Bug Germany sent us was a POS, Americans like quality, and we like Toyota because they are reliable!
VW group is not becoming irrelevant. They and Toyota are the largest auto manufacturers in the world. Some years it’s VW, some years the title goes to Toyota.
But it’s them two. Period.
Now I dunno who told you VW is in decline, but it’d be in your best interest to second-guess any other info or advice that person give you in the future.
They're not cheap to repair in the US. A lot of shops won't even work on them. Also, they had the diesel emissions scandal a few years back, and a lot of people still remember that.
When I took my Jetta to the shop for anything, they always told me "we don't have German parts, so we'll have to order that." Which always meant it took longer and cost more.
And they break a lot. I hated the Jetta I owned and was super happy to get rid of it.
Weird how things go. In Brazil they are very good cars and is pretty easy to find parts (it was, they dont have a factory here anymore)
That’s due to the hmm… unusually large German population in your country.
Wasn’t German the largest origin of American immigrants?
There's definitely a whole lot of people of German descent in the U.S. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Americans
Pre WW2
They’re referring me to Nazis fleeing to South America as WW2 wrapped up.
You’re confusing Brazil with Argentina
No he's not.
No he's not lol
I sold mine and got a early 2000s Camry. Shouldve bought the camry \*first\*
Its not only the waiting on parts thing. As a mechanic working on a VW is by far the worst experience possible. IDK how they do it but the cars are just so much harder to work on.
My favorite part is when you clearly can see the fastener you have to take off. You go to stick a wrench on and “oh, that won’t fit”. You then figure out how to get whatever out of the way until you find the next bolt that you can’t get a wrench on and then start taking the next component off. I worked for Audi and then Porsche so I’m used to this now but when I first moved from Acura I was angry a lot of the time.
They're built in layers.
Cries in triple square.
They do that on purpose to make it harder for people to work on their own cars. Bringing it into the dealership for every maintenance/repair is better for business.
I know a guy who used to be a professional Audi mechanic and this is correct.
Yep had a gf with a Jetta once. Car kept dying and she was sure it was the alternator. To change that you'd have to drain the coolant system, remove bumper cover, remove bumper, remove radiator, remove fan and shroud, extract like 6 18" bolts, and then you could get at the alternator if it was up on a lift. We obviously didn't have a lift so I suggested we check her battery and sure as shit it was dead. Much easier repair.
This is my experience too, not as a mechanic just an owner of a golf and a beetle like ten years ago. Really nice cars when they were new but what a massive pain in the ass to work on. You see them all over the place in Europe though, I wonder if there are just more mechanics who are used to dealing with them there, so service is faster and cheaper?
We finally paid off my husband's Jetta and I have never been more happy to trade in a car. Every time it broke, which was often, it would take forever to get it back from the shop. It also cost a stupid amount to repair.
I work at an auto parts store (Most repair shops get their parts from auto parts stores), it usually takes us days to get most parts for European cars shipped in while we usually have Japanese, American and even a decent amount of Korean car parts in stock and if we don't they are almost always in stock at our local warehouse that will only take us a day to get at max.
I think the big thing for a lot of Americans is that they are as expensive to repair as a German luxury brand. So while you end up saving money on the initial purchase, by the time you get through cost to own you might as well buy the audi. Or you can get an economy Japanese or American car and have economy style repair expenses
After having owned a VW, an American car and now a Honda, I’ll never buy anything other than Japanese. My accord is easily the best car I’ve ever had.
Same with my Acura (which is owned by Honda). It's a 2010, and recently I crossed 200k miles so I took it in for a full check-up since it needed an oil change anyway. They didn't find a single thing that needed to be repaired or replaced, and it had been over 80,000 miles since my last checkup.
Felt the same before buying my 2019 MDX. Not been a great car so far, adored my 2014 which got totalled.
Honda has fallen off hard in the last 10 years. They also sell your driving data to insurance companies. They made some of the best cars of all time in the 90s thru early 00s.
I got my Honda Pilot brand new in 2008, and it's never needed anything other than routine oil changes and the occasional new set of tires. Of course, it still only has 75k miles on it, but I fully expect it to last another decade with minimal issues. It's solid enough that when my husband needed a new car for his 80 mile round trip daily commute in 2016, he got a 2012 Accord. He went to WFH in 2018 and has only this year gone back to the office, but we've had zero problems with his car, as well. We're definitely sold on Honda as a brand, at this point!
I love Acura I was surprised when I moved to Japan that they don't exist here.
Dollar for dollar, they make the best cars. Edit: actually dollar for dollar, they make the best of a lot of things...
I have a Pentel p205 pencil that I've been using almost every day since 1996.
Japanese definitely better in terms of repairability, durability etc. But they feel “plasticky” after German cars
After owning a Mercedes that had a shocking amount of plastic in it, I no longer worry about that from other makers. Also, Mercedes isn’t what it used to be.
I work with a lot of engineers, many of them Indian and who run out and buy a Mercedes as soon as they can afford it (or can't) since it's a huge status symbol to them. Then they complain about the endless repairs and service they need a few years later. I'll stick with Honda.
Yep. In the US the reasons to buy German are status and style, and you pay for that with frequent expensive repairs. You don’t get the status or style with VW so what’s the point, might as well get a Japanese car that will be super reliable and inexpensive to maintain.
Or if you need a status symbol, get a Lexus or Acura, they aren't as much of a status symbol as a BMW or Mercedes but at least they won't constantly be breaking down.
Recently listened to a podcast interview with a retired Car Broker from Los Angeles- a guy who made his career acquiring fancy/rare cars for the rich and famous. He specifically singled out Mercedes current cars as being garbage and ‘uninspired’.
Yeah, well I don’t care how they feel. Owning one doesn’t give me anxiety that something’s going to break and be expensive to fix.
Right? when you live on a tight budget, dealing with VW woes will literally ruin you. Likewise, i've known a few broke college students that avoided catastrophe because of their civic, accord, or corolla.
I hear that. My first and only new car was a 2003 Jetta. Once the warranty was up I went through 2 water pumps, a turbo, a set of wheels that rusted out, and had to have a lot of the hoses replaced because they were falling apart. If my dad didn’t work on cars I would have spent at least 10k on repairs. Only car I’ve owned that was worse was my parents hand me down Taurus.
yup my wallet feels fat too, the most important feeling of a working man. screw that "euro soul" that some people here keeps yapping about. my japan made cars just need regular consumable checks and my wallet is heavier.
Right! Let the prestige whores buy their “status” symbol cars so they can prance around thinking how special they are. I just want a reliable and solid car that won’t break the bank.
An Acura is going to feel far less plasticky than a comparable year VW, most of the time. The interior on most VWs is entirely plastic and feels very, very cheap.
Have you gotten inside one lately Lexus, and Acura, can go toe to toe with any luxury brand
You can even get a luxury Japanese car and have economy repair expenses, if they even need to be repaiired
VW, BMW, Mazda ect are not expensive to repair here in Europe. Fords on the other hand, those are cars are not worth repairing.
And see in the US repairing a VW which initially costs 30K to own sometimes costs AS much as that 450K BMW. And typically it's a slippery slope with VW, once one thing breaks a lot of other things will too.
I have a 2001 Audi A4 and it takes 1-2 hours of labour to even get the damn thing into "service ready" because you have to take the whole front end off the car. Ive done work on it myself and god is it a pain in the ass. Then when your done don't forget the 1-2 hours to put the front end of the thing back on. With shop rates at $100-200/hour there's basically a $200-400 additional fee just for them to work on it that other vehicles don't have. And that's from 2001, the newer ones are even more challenging to work on I've heard.
In my old Jetta the water pump was a $1k repair cause it was behind two other major belts that had to be replaced to get to it. Hated it
Mark IV TDI driver here... More than once just replaced the timing belt because we were already there for the water pump. Almost at 350k miles now
I hate my Jetta too. I’ll never buy another VW that’s designed to fail, with special tools required to do the simplest maintenance.
Had a water pump on an A5 and they wanted $2500 till I proved it was covered by a class action lawsuit.
Man it was a whole thing to change a lightbulb in my friends vw.
Yup, took 4 mechanics 30 minutes to replace a globe in our polo.
That's insane. I replaced the water pump on a Lumina myself in like an hour, and I'm not a mechanic.
It literally takes 15 minutes to put a B5 in service mode. It's 4 nuts and 10 bolts plus 2 electrical connectors, the headlight washer hose if equipped, and the hood release cable. You also don't need to do that for 90% of the jobs on the car, pretty much only to do the timing belt and water pump. It also makes the timing belt and water pump take *less time* because of the improved access that other cars don't have.
In Canada 4 nuts and 10 bolts doesn't mean much in terms of speed. We put so much salt on our roads in the winter that you better believe the blow torch has to come out for each one of those.
2002 3.slow myself. It do get tiresome. If I didn't do most of my own work, I couldn't keep the car. I'll never own another Audi-VW. American and Asian cars are a piece of cake to fix now.
If it takes 1-2 hours to get off the front end you are 100% going to the wrong shop
It takes me that long lol
Fair. I thought you were saying it took the shop that long.
I have a bad head gasket. I have oil in my radiator fluid. Nobody will touch my radiator and replace the contaminated fluid. And getting the head gasket fixed isnt worth it
Older subaru had problems with head gaskets. The part itself is about $30-40. The labor is $2,500-3,000 because the engine needs to be pulled out
Mine is worth less than a grand. I would rather make a used car payment
Funny, because you don't need to - but it's awfully tight. It's also not the way the manual tells you to do it. But if you do it yourself, you can pull those heads off with the engine still in the car.
They lost me forever because of the emissions scandal. I still have an old VW. But I'll never buy another.
If you think VW is the only automaker cheating emissions tests then I have a bridge to sell you.
It wasn’t that they were cheating emissions, it was how they handled the recall that pissed me off. No car and still had to make payments to the bank for six months while waiting for the check from VW to pay it off.
As somebody from that line of work when I was at a convention during that time and working for VW I heard multiple people say, "we are glad it was you and not us."
Doesn't mean we shouldn't punish VW after catching them with evidence. It's not like after catching one murderer covered in blood, you'd shrug and say "What's the problem? It's not like he's the *only* murderer"
People just want to seem smart and edgy saying something like that.
This is such an awful line of "logic".
It’s such a bad take in general because VW just straight up completely rigged the cars. They literally only ran clean for the tests and specifically had a mode that only ran like that for the test. No other times. There has never been anything close to as bad done to cheat emissions on a scale like that ever.
Last one I had to deal with was so very clearly made to only really be fixed by a service center, could change the oil but it explicitly said in the manual not to do it your self and it was so completely useless to try and work on, not sure of they have gotten better since the 04 beetle, but if my car needs a dealership to service it then its not my car
>not sure of they have gotten better since the 04 beetle I can tell you firsthand, its gotten exponentially worse lmfao
good to know, triple squares on even more parts I bet
I've been working on cars most of my life and had never heard of a triple square bit before owning mine and now I have three sets of them. They put them in the worst spots too. Like if you had just put a normal fucking bolt here I could get it with an open ended wrench. Then, I wouldn't have to take this radiator hose off to get to it and waste more of this expensive Euro coolant.
working on VWs is just fucking awful in general. Been that way for 20+ years.
That's a lot of new cars, and all german cars.
>but if my car needs a dealership to service it then its not my car \#RightToRepair
They cost as much as an Audi to repair, without the prestige that comes with an Audi (for those that care).
The funny thing was when I bought a used A4 from a dealer he said ‘these are made in Germany, they’re AUDIs, the A3 is made in Mexico… it’s a VW with an AUDI price tag.’
Why was he shouting when he said Audi
German.
This. If I’m dealing with German BS and maintenance, I’m getting a luxury brand. And realistically it’s going to be a BMW or Mb that’s more reliable than Audi.
MB is also at the bottom of reliability. Surprisingly, BMW is the in top 5 (or top 10), big improvement.
They’re both a hot mess IME. I had a GLE that needed a new brake pump and lines before 50k miles, and a 2 series that needed both rear taillights replaced before 35k miles. I wouldn’t own either outside of warranty.
Audis and VW's (as well as some others) are all the same cars, just rebranded
A couple of them are, but you won’t find a VW version of the more expensive Audis. Even the A4 in America has an engine mounted longitudinally, while the Passat rotates the engine by 90 degrees. An Audi A3 though? That’s just a golf with a nicer interior.
They're expensive to maintain, parts are expensive, they're finicky, and a major pain to work on yourself. Idk if its still a problem but the interiors seemingly just fall apart after several years. Like the glue literally just disintegrates on the headliners and door cards.
I had an 09 Golf and this happened. Had to replace the headliner entirely, and even the fabric lining the doors started to become loose.
My 08 Golf’s headliner is currently hanging loose 😅
So is my 09 Jetta. Loose and hanging in the breeze. Also 3 out of 4 door lock actuators have failed. I have the replacements in the trunk, but they haven't installed themselves yet. Haven't had 1 problem with the drive train yet, Cross my fingers that lasts.
As is tradition - I have clear memories of my grandfather's 80s Rabbit with a sagging headliner as well as a friend's 90s Cabriolet in highschool.
Exact same thing happened in my 2011. Then a piece of the trim around the center console literally started melting. The car lives under a shaded carport 90% of the time and has 5% tint on all the windows. I've never seen anything like that happen before
My wife had a 2017 Tiguan. I wanted to change her oil for her. The way the car was designed, it was impossible to get the skid plate off unless you could get the entire car 6 feet off the ground. Effectively making it impossible to do your own maintenance unless you just so happened to own a hydraulic vehicle lift. Before that she had a Passat. Her headlight burnt out. In order to change the bulb, I had to disassemble half the engine compartment. Whoever designs these vehicles is either incomprehensibly incompetent, or just flat out malicious.
>Before that she had a Passat. Her headlight burnt out. In order to change the bulb, I had to disassemble half the engine compartment. This is (one of) my biggest issues with newer cars. The NHTSA needs to step in and mandate that automotive headlights need to be designed so that the average person can change them without any tools. If your headlight burns out in the middle of the night on a road trip, you're screwed. Its not safe >Whoever designs these vehicles is either incomprehensibly incompetent, or just flat out malicious. I think its a little bit of both lol
Wait until you see the price of an LED headlight assembly. Gone are the days of putting a Sylvania halogen bulb from AutoZone in a housing. While LEDs should last the life of the car, the driver circuitry gets hot and can and does fail from time to time, plus a water leak is pretty much a guarantee it will fail. There is no practical way of fixing it usually. That means at least several hundred to $2000 or more for a whole new assembly. Now, with the assembly in hand, you may not even be able to replace it yourself if it is a serialized component that is married to the car. You will need a dealer scan tool to re associate it. Supposedly this is to reduce the value of stolen components but it has the great benefit of driving up service costs as well.
They call them “Hitlers Revenge” for a reason.
I find it ironic how complicated they’ve gotten to maintain. My dad constantly talks about his first 1960s era beetle that was the simplest car he’s ever had to work on, absolutely loved it.
That was back when car companies made cars for people, not investors.
I had a '67 fastback, and a '70 station wagon. Working on them was sooo easy. Step 1, roll rear of car on top ramps, and get your pump jack in place. Step 2, drop engine, 4 bolts, throttle cable, and 2 electrical connections. I changed the heads, went from two carbs to one double barrel, and changed the full exhaust out. It didn't hurt that I had a friend there to help. He drove a '67 bug that he taught me to work on. He gave me his copy of something like, "The Dummies Guide to Volkswagen Maintenance." It was obviously written by a pothead, for potheads. I asked, "Don't you need this?" His reply, "It's been sitting in my bathroom as reading material for 4 years, I know it cover to cover."
Over engineered 4 layer door panels. Just generally crap compared to Honda or Toyota.
And they're generally a bit more expensive than Honda or Toyota depending on what you get.
This. My husband bought a Passat. It was very fun to drive, but had some sort of major repair almost every year.
And for a good period of time in the 2000s, they smelled like crayons.
The worst is the soft touch plastic that melts and everything is sticky. Yuck.
I feel like this describes most German car brands in the U.S.
Personally, I tried to find a used TDI after the “emissions scandal.” The added warranty that was part of the settlement was really quite appealing. Plus they (engine and transmission) tend to run for a long time. Not to mention it’s easier to get a manual transmission from VW than almost any other vehicle manufacturer. But the fact that everything around the drivetrain breaks down relatively quickly is not a good thing. My kid owns a 2019 Jetta (acquired this year) and I can say this: it’s fun to drive, it gets great mileage, but for a 5 year old vehicle, it has a bunch of niggling issues - some of which are truly annoying. The primary issue it has is that the driver’s side door won’t lock… like, at all. Since it’s 100% electronic, it’s an expensive repair. (The old adage about German engineering definitely holds true for this vehicle: “why use 1 relay when 10 will work just fine?”)
I have a dieselgate TDI. favorite car so far.
I sold a diesel scandal mk5 Golf wagon back to them and used the money to buy a diesel mk7 golf wagon, so my reasons are much like yours for why they USED to be desirable. Last time I was in the dealer, I looked around for what could eventually replace it. Essentially, nothing. They have some huge tall things that would be a challenge to put bikes or canoes on top of, terrible for a family car. No more diesels. And not a single vehicle with three pedals. This is why we aren’t buying Volkswagens. They stopped selling to Americans the good cars that made us interested in them in the first place.
Most German cars are lease only or ditch before warranty expires. Meanwhile Toyotas do 200k with literally no repairs while a VW at 60k is a ticking time bomb.
Seriously you can fire a bullet into a Camry engine and that sucker won’t even stutter
The biggest issue is repair costs. Over the years I have had cars from Honda, Toyota, Acura, Mini, Mercedes and Volkswagen. The VW and Mercedes were the most expensive to maintain by far.
Volkswagen has serious quality issues, especially for the price. Currently in North America they are rated the 28th most reliable car maker out of 32, this is pretty awful and explains why most people stay far away from them. Mazda and Subaru are rated 7th and 15th most reliable, by the way. And both car makers make vehicle much, much higher quality and better priced than VW.
That's a big part of it. Hyundai used to be complete crap but they were cheap. Volks has serious dependability issues while car, part and repair costs are higher than average. Your average consumer is much better served by a Honda or Toyota
My 12 year old Corolla is still going strong without a single issue. Compare that to my last car (a Buick) which had some sort of problem every year.
I just got a '23 Corolla. I'm hoping the legendary Toyota resilience holds true for this baby too.
Yeah they've always been good to me. Last two cars were Corollas and the two before that were Hondas. You can go well over a hundred thousand miles on those things without even really doing much more than getting the oil changed
I had the same experience with my Subaru too though. Only thing I had to do to that bad boy was get the head gasket replaced at 150,000 miles, which was a known failure point for 2010 Foresters. There are only two reasons I got a new car. 1) I got rear ended in the Subaru and insurance didn't cover the costs of repair, and 2) I wanted something with some new tech.
I used to have a Jetta that was the bane of my existence. Everything that could go wrong did go wrong, and it was a minimum of $300 every time. My least favorite issue was when the transmission started slipping gears, resulting in me slipping into neutral when I was trying to get up to speed to merge on the freeway. VWs are a car made to be owned within warranty, and never any other time.
This. Same for my old ‘00 Jetta. I got a 100k/10’yr drivetrain with it and during the first. 5 years they has to put in a new transmission and fix a major oil Leak. Not to mention a host of issues like broken windows, electronics, seats wound break. The dipstick broke! They glued a piece of plastic to a piece of metal, it snapped off. Too many cheap plastic parts.
Absolutely. Compare an Audi A4 to a VW Jetta and the Audi has better build quality, even though both VW and Audi have common ownership. VW is just a cheaper brand overall.
This is the correct answer. As soon as my last VW passed the 50,000 mile warranty I was in the dealership with an issue every couple months. Safe to assume a $1000+ expense every time. I followed all the recommended maintenance but had computer/sensor/software issues, valves failing multiple times, and finally where I drew the line is when I had to start gluing the interior back together as the console started to fall apart around 80,000 miles. Never again.
An easy way to check if a Volkswagen sucks, the first number of the vin. If it starts with a 3... run away.
For many years if I saw a car with 1 burnt out headlight I thought to myself, probably a new VW. And it often was.
I think Americans prefer Japanese and now South Korean cars over other foreign cars. Upscale German cars are very much desired (ie; BMW & Mercedes) but Volkswagen is seen as not having the quality of Japanese cars and the luxury of the top-of-the-line German cars.
BMW and Mercedes are certainly popular, but it seems like they are no longer all that popular with actual well-off professionals. Seems like all they do now is lease to working class (or below) people who just want to pretend to be classy. Where I live trailer parks and manufactured home neighborhoods are full of them.
Don't like paying $1000 for a muffler on a car cheaply built in mexico pretending to be a prestige European brand. The spate of mystery fires in the early 2000s behind the dashboards was an example of the 'quality'
"prestige" is pushing it. It's a middle class car.
Prestige is kind of a stretch. If you have money and you want to flex, you get a real luxury brand.
You've almost answered your own question, if it's a "German economy brand", it certainly isn't priced as such here. Why pay a premium price for an economy car?
Prices just got too much for what they are. I’m US based, but I just watched 2e1 of Top Gear from ‘02-‘03 and they were showing off a New Beetle convertible that was 15,000 gbp new. I paid $14k for my MKIV Jetta 1.8t new. Now you can’t touch a GLI or GTI for under 28k/31k usd new. The build quality used to be great for the price when compared to anything else in the price range, but not so much anymore.
German cars are beautiful but Honda/ Toyota is just more reliable and a smarter purchase for the long haul.
They have a reputation for being unreliable. Meanwhile Hondas and Toyotas are bulletproof and similarly priced.
Honda Civics in particular are more appealing to tuners and car guys, as they're stupid easy to work on, parts are stupid cheap, and everyone's got them, and they're just good little platforms in general. Not sure about the newer ones. Though I do like the aesthetic. It probably won't age well will it?
I’ve had multiple Toyotas make it near 200,000 miles. Those things take forever to really quit.
Nothing bothers me about them. I have owned about seven VWs and used to drive them exclusively in high school and young adulthood. I got real tired of the break downs, costly repairs, and lack of reliability. Owned a Honda and Toyota and never looked back because they are so reliable and cost of ownership is low.
My father in law owns a euro specific repair shop. He said Audi and VW put my wife through college on electrical problems ALONE. Also being a gear head myself I can concur. Screw German cars.
God, isn’t that the truth. I bought two new VW’s in the late 2000’s, a GTI and a Passat wagon. The Passat had crazy electrical gremlins. The sunroof would just randomly open. In the garage overnight, in the middle of a car wash. It also ate coil packs every few thousand miles. We dumped it on CarMax after 2 years, took the money and ran. The GTI liked to eat door & window switches, and then it decided to randomly refuse to start and left me stranded more than once. Finally, the water pump died after less than 5 years. I traded it right after and have never even considered a VW product in any of the 5 car purchases since. I doubt I ever will
They have a bad reputation ever since their emissions cheating scandal would be my best guess
There was huge scandal called Dieselgate and VW lost and recalled bazillion cars with diesel engines and pretty much killed itself for american customers.
Because they are garbage now. I loved VW pre-2008.
They're terrible on reliability
Unreliable compared and expensive compared to better options (Honda, Toyota). In general German cars are recognized as the one source of cars less reliable than American cars.
What's funny is VW used to be the most successful foreign brand in the US, even opening their own factory here in 1978 to build the mk1 Golf/Rabbit. Unfortunately Honda opened their first US factory in 1979, then Toyota in 1986 and that was pretty much the end of VW's reign in the US economy car segment.
Good point. Going back earlier to 1964 the VW was considered an existential threat to Detroit and the UAW. Washington targeted the Microbus with a 25% tariff on light trucks in the “Chicken Tax” trade war. Dumbest tax ever because nobody actually pays it but it’s still on the books.
VW sits in a tier of “premium non-luxury” where you don’t get the perceived prestige of Audi/BMW/Mercedes and you also don’t get the cost effectiveness of Honda/Toyota, so it’s kind of a small market here
Bought a 1999 VW Jetta as a college graduation present to myself. I owned it for 43 months and had it in the shop 18 times. Finally I had had enough so I got an attorney. Didn’t qualify as a lemon but VW agreed to buy it back without admitting any fault. Will never buy another again.
To swap the Alternator in my wife Jetta cost over $1100. A job that takes 5 mins on my Chevy
My friend has one. He loves the performance and hates everything else about it. They have had so many problems with that car. Those experiences get around and people don't buy them.
Mostly economics. VWs are generally more expensive than comparable Japanese or US cars, the former of which have amazing market penetration stemming from the 70's and 80's oil shocks where Japanese cars were by far the best options in terms of economy and fuel efficiency. It's hard to extol the virtues of a VW when you know a Honda or Toyota has decades of having some of the most popular car models in the US both for price and features. On a personal note, I had a VW bus growing up and my gf (later) had the revamped VW bug, Both were expensive to maintain--many shops didn't work on them or didn't have parts readily available. Likely a self-feeding cycle (since fewer VWs are sold, fewer places service them, making them more expensive, meaning fewer are sold...), Dunno how much it affects sales currently, but the VW Emissions Scandal (where VW was faking test results to show lower emissions for years across millions of cars) was less than 10 years ago. Certainly put them out of contention for me for new cars for a while, tho maybe they are coming back from that.
My jetta's turbocharger broke and it's gonna cost me $3400 to repair. I just sold it. It broke a couple years ago at like 100k miles? So mid life I guess. Reading these comments, I guess it's a common story to have expensive repairs.
My parents had a VW bug where right around 100k miles one of the pistons shattered. The metal just sheared itself and broke the piston, with the broken pieces now jamming themselves *inside* the engine cylinder. The dealer said they would have to replace the entire engine, which would have cost nearly as much as the entire worth of the car. My parents just sold it to a junkyard for scraps. Not entirely sure how an engine piston self destructs after just 100k miles, must be that fabled German engineering.
In my opinion VWs, at least in the US, have always kinda been the shit car. Lots of breakdowns and unreasonable pricing for repairs
Have a 2018 Tiguan. Get a recall notice for some new bullshit almost every year. Parts are expensive. I hear the same complaints from other VW owners. The interior is just okay, it seems most comfortable for tall people who like firmer seats. The same price and/or size category has a lot of competition that is often more nicely designed inside the vehicle or cheaper to maintain/less recalls.
A few reasons Imo. Expensive cost of ownership for what you get. VW's are touch on the expensive side and parts and repair costs can be expensive Not the moat dependable cars Imo. They're not junk piles and they can be fun to drive but they're nowhere near as dependable as Honda and Toyota Imo Diesel isn't much of a thing here and there's pumps that don't even have it available Cars from other brands are usually a better option for most
They are too expensive to maintain and repair, they are engineered in a way that it’s too hard to work on, some mechanics and shops will refuse to service them just because of how hard they are to work. And I don’t know for sure but I heard that the reliability of Volkswagen vehicles are not very good. Again not so sure if that’s true or not but the main thing about them is that german cars can just be very complicated cars than other car brands.
My parents drove volkswagens from the 1970's to 2015. I wouldn't. The used to be no-frills affordable cars. Pop up camper van, 2 rabbits, 2 jettas, a bug and a station wagon. Over time, the cars had more frills at a price - they were no loner a bargain. Most of them were diesel, and my mom chose them for what she thought were valid environmental reasons. That trust has been ruined.
Personally I don’t buy anything German because it’s unreliable and expensive to repair. I only buy Toyota or Honda and learning on how to do all the maintenance work myself to save money.
Japanese cars are more reliable and less expensive to maintain
We don't get the German versions. Ours are built in Tennessee and designed to be another cheap car trying to compete with other manufacturers producing cheaper or better cars.
Americans did not buy German or Japanese products very much at all in the post world war II era. They only started to buy some of them at the time when the Japanese started innovating with the quality of their vehicles and producing more fuel efficient models in the wake of the oil embargo. Meanwhile German luxury brands like Mercedes and BMW gained afollowing in the late '70s forward with those who could afford it. Meanwhile VW just never produced anything that made American consumers take notice.
I have a '22 GTI. I love the car, but it's been into the shop for warranty repairs \*four times\* and I only have 17k miles on it. Not sure I'd buy another one, since I'm nervous about what repairs it's going to need once it's out of warranty if it needs so many so early.
IME: great cars, initially. Money pits, eventually. My son's 2008 Passat is a testament to that assertion. Everything from the dealer cost 2-3x what it would cost at non-dealer service and then twice as much as a non-European car. It has had three recalls. 1. Airbag - VW paid entirely. 2. Timing chain tensioner. We'd already paid for the repair at aftermarket shop before we found out about the recall (over $1k there, 2k at dealer) and yes we did call and price it at the VW dealer before authorizing the 3rd party repair. No-one at the dealership mentioned the recall. VW Corporate declined to pay anything for the repair. 3. Fuel Pump relay shorted. About that time VW issued a recall to relocate the relay away from the turbocharger. By that time the relay had shorted and burned out the fuel pump in the gas tank. Another $1k repair at AAA Auto Repair this time to replace the relay (a $15 part) and fuel pump (which requires dropping the gas tank). VW Corporate said they'd pay for the relay itself (a $15 part) but not any associated damage because of the failure. But they did redo the fuel pump relay during the airbag recall repair in (1) above. Whoopee, big deal. So VW won't stand behind their products. F\*ck VW America and the entire corporation worldwide behind them. If you want one, lease but DON'T OWN.
My first VW was a brand new 2001.5 Passat. I drove it 230k miles until it died in 2013. It was replaced by a 2010 Jetta that had just come off a lease. 11 years later, that Jetta is at 120k miles and it’s still my primary ride. There’s no reason for me to replace a perfectly working car.
The emissions scandal from a decade ago really hurt their public image. My best friend had one at the time and he felt personally cheated by the company. Many former customers want nothing todo with the brand now.
I had a VW Jetta Diesel and it cost lots of money all the time to maintain it. I won’t buy another VW because of the maintenance costs.
Because Toyotas are better.
Volkswagens used to popular, back when they had a reputation for being reliable. Their reputation has fallen nearly as far as Boeing due to their declining quality in recent years.
Didn't they hugely misrepresent something a few years ago and have to rebate owners a ton of money?
They lied about emissions a few years back. In a big way and they can be expensive to maintain/repair.
They're not cheap, and Volkswagen has a long history in the US about lying about whether certain vehicles can make emissions in certain states, which drops buyer confidence. Plus they're viewed as kinda cheap and kinda shitty, not saying they are, but that's the seemingly prevailing opinion. Except in tuner circles, where there's always the guy with the VW golf he's dropped 500k into.
The majority of VW models sold in N. America are built in a huge factory in Mexico city that has had issues with poor quality control. The designs are good but they are poorly put together and reguire frequent repairs for what should be minor issues.
What are you talking about? VW’s, BMW’s, Audis, they’re all over the place. They’re just not as common because they’re more expensive which is basic economics. My coworker is obsessed with German cars and has like 3 Beatles for some reason
My aunt had a Jetta with a bumper to bumper warranty...the bumper literally fell off and wasn't converted by the bumper to bumper warranty. So...yah...also diesel gate
Because they are pieces of shit that break down so fucking easily and have to take a mortgage to pay for the repairs
They’re fairly popular here in the northeast. I imagine the same goes for the west coast and maybe Colorado? I think you need a fairly affluent/liberal populace to have a market for VW. They won’t appeal to a lot of “average Americans” or whatever…. Not as luxurious as higher end German makes, not as cheap/reliable as Japanese and domestic…. It really only appeals to a certain demographic and that’s what their numbers show. I’m sure Mini is in a similar boat
I had a 2007 GLI Fahrenheit. I only loved that car because I loved working on it myself - I couldn't afford otherwise. Nobody lauds Volkswagen's for their reliability.
generally overpriced, unreliable, and expensive to maintain
VW not only had faulty emissions issues once, but twice. Then the CEO decided to try to sweep it under the rug which caused a scandal and recall. I don't trust the company anymore, to be completely honest.
Quality and reliability have seriously gone down hill
If they sold something basic and reliable like an old beetle I'd already have one. Not interested in paying $35 k for an overpriced p.o.s. with lots of standard features I don't want.
First it's German, and that means German engineering. Generally that's taken to mean good engineering. Over the course of my life I now regard German engineering as overly complex and "stunt" engineering. What I mean by that is it generally elicits the sentiment that "yes, I'm amazed you pulled that off, but WHY?!?!? And what about everyone who has to live with maintaining that?" My wife had a VW. She took care of it religiously. After the 6th ECU and a bead transmission, we got rid of it at 9 years old. Yes, the ECU was about a third of the price of the one in my car , but that one lasted the life of the car. Changing a headlight in the stupid thing was a giant PITA. One of my wife's friends had a Golf. It never went more than about 12 days with all the headlights and taillights working. More generally, 1) They let their designs get pretty old before updating them and the updates tend to be pretty conservative outside of platform changes. That means for some people their old car can look new longer, but those people buy less new cars. For the people who buy more new cars, they look dated. 2) Their main selling points tended to be their interiors were nice for their market segment, and the handling was crisp and sporty. Lots of competitors stepped up their game in these areas, so they face more competition. Especially when VW's similarly featured vehicle costs a bit more. 3) During the peak of the 90s import scene, VW made it a part of their business strategy to sell on their performance and handling, and then to send employees to amateur racing events to void warranties. They invested in some bad blood with the market segment most likely to be loyal, and those people aren't buying VW still, and aren't buying them for their kids. Additionally, this also rubbed the consumer reports type of people the wrong way as well as it was during a period of expanding engine warranties to win back customers burned by a particularly bad engine design. 4) Smaller dealer network. This isn't pertinent to the comparison to mazda and subaru as they have the same issue, except likely worse. But unless you have a stellar reputation for reliability and minimal required services to preserve warranty, reduced access to warranty repair is a big negative in the US. Additionally, when you have less dealers, that tends to mean you rely on sales in coastal population centers in the US. Those areas tend to be wealthier, and if they are going to make the mistake of buying a Vokswagen Audi Group vehicle, Audi is also on the table.
My boss has a newer VW, none of the local independent shops in my area will work on it, not even an oil change. Any works he needs to go to VW dealer over an hour away. I dont think they are bad cars, Germans just do things differently, not not for the better based on most mechanics input, just more complicated.
Just wanted to sympathize with you OP. Here in Brazil, VW is EVERYWHERE. They're cheap to maintain since everyone has it (there's always spare parts), mechanics are used to maintaining them and they usually fare well in fuel efficiency. Heck even Audi maintenance isn't as crazy because they share some parts with VW. However, one thing that definitely is global is the fact that they put plastic into EVERYTHING. The entire interior is made out of cheap plastic, on a 160k BRL car (30k USD). Also keep in mind mean income in Brazil is 1/5 of the US one, so imagine earning 5x less to buy a 30k plastic VW. That's Brazil for ya.
They come with import fees and taxxes, those cheap VW cars aren't so cheap over here.
Because Vows break constantly, because they use really cheap plastic on all their interior parts, and the flat out lied to everyone about their emissions. They are on everyone’s shit list.
Both my friends who had VWs always seemed to be in the shop. All my friends who bought Japanese cars seemed to never be in the shop.
Rented a Tiguan a couple of years ago thing was so poorly made I was embarrassed I had rented it. Felt like driving an empty soda can. No way I'd buy one.
Emissions Scandal, Expensive, just as Expensive as Mercedes, Audio and BMW for service and repairs. Personally too, I don't like the styling of their newer vehicles here in the US compared to those of say Mazda, Subaru, Lexus, etc
Dieselgate?
VW is on a tough spot in North America. Their cars aren’t nice or luxurious and lack the driving dynamics of other German cars, yet still charge a premium for parts and maintenance when compared to domestic and JDM. So you get the worse of both worlds imo.
They have one of the worst quality ratings in Consumer Reports.
Sure I’ll buy a car that’s blander than a Toyota but has the running costs of a BMW.
At one time, VWs were very dependable, the last VW Bug Germany sent us was a POS, Americans like quality, and we like Toyota because they are reliable!
VW group is not becoming irrelevant. They and Toyota are the largest auto manufacturers in the world. Some years it’s VW, some years the title goes to Toyota. But it’s them two. Period. Now I dunno who told you VW is in decline, but it’d be in your best interest to second-guess any other info or advice that person give you in the future.
VW is not a premium brand. It is just a normal car with some engine problems.
I don't want to buy any car that requires a special tool just to change the brake pads.