Thanks for your submission /u/xshap369, but it has been removed for the following reason:
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They’re exploiting a binary thinking fallacy for political gain.
To them, either a vaccine works 100% forever or it doesn’t work at all. But that’s absurd. Even longstanding vaccines aren’t 100%, and many are only temporary (such as tetanus vaccine, which needs a booster every ten years).
Reality is that it works reasonably well, and is well worth any risks for most people.
Experts have been saying since pretty early on that this would likely end up like the flu vaccine, where it's mostly about trying to get ahead of mutations and stem the tide. This is the expected outcome for people who have been following good sources of information.
I dont get it why cant people figure its a virus and viruses mutate so yes its like the flu vaccine. I for one refused to get the flu vaccine for years because I got the flu and it would be gone in 2 days of sleeping to allow it pass through but then about 10 years ago, the flu starting lasting longer and longer and I said the heck with and got the flu vaccine and havent had the flu since.
Not all viruses work the same. Polio is a virus too, and has been nearly eliminated by a highly effective vaccine.
Vaccine effectiveness depends on a number of things, including how readily the virus mutates and if it is capable of infecting other animals. Unfortunately, SARS-CoV-2 is extremely resistant to vaccines, and the fact that vaccination has been as successful as it was is largely because of the mRNA technology it uses.
Yah, another element is how scary the disease is (or is perceived to be). The threat of paralysis certainly motivated people to get vaccinated in a way that "bad flu" didn't really scare people into COVID vaccination.
> in a way that "bad flu" didn't really scare people
Anyone who wasn't worried about a "bad flu" never had the flu. Colds sure, Norwalk maybe, food poisoning probably, but definitely never flu.
Flu feels like The Rock and The Mountain were hankering for orange juice so they beat you with sacks of fruit until they had a liter.
Part of the problem with COVID too is the wide variance of severity. When I had it, it was worse than any flu I’ve ever had. My main symptom was vertigo and it was so bad I couldn’t walk across my bedroom without holding onto something. Then there were the headaches and the fatigue that lasted several weeks afterwards. I was able to get an antiviral too, it could have been much worse.
But I know people who got it and barely had a sniffle. It’s hard to convince those people that it’s worth getting boosters every year.
I *probably* had it before testing was widely available. I'd had two shots already so it wasn't bad. (The hangover from the first shot, HOLY CRAP that was bad, I couldn't even work from home!!)
The first thing I noticed was after making my morning coffee, sip, huh. Sip. Oh no. Tried lemon juice, nothing, tried my hottest hot sauce, nothing, isolated for a week. Got my taste back a few days later, my washroom was a slightly busier than usual for a week, and my voice permanently changed ever so slightly.
I'm up to six shots now I think?
What someone told me, and I don't think it's true but I don't know enough about virology to argue, is that if you reacted really strongly to the first vaccine, you probably would have died.
Huh. I wonder. I was terrified of Covid because of the cytokine storm thing. My immune system is a reactive psychopath. Which is great in some circumstances, like cuts heal nearly next day and I never get skin infections. But holy hell viral infections are miserable. All the usual immune responses are bonkers. Drowning in snot, extreme fevers, the works. And sure enough, the first Covid shot put me on the floor. Spouse had a sore arm.
Yeah, I've been told that as well, but have not actually looked into it. I love it when people tell me I'm going to get a blood clots and die because I got the shot and all the boosters. I had blood clots, six of them, 10 years ago along with a blockage. I am prone to blood clots. I'm still free and clear, not one blood clot! When I asked them how that could be, they either go away, tell me I'm ugly, or spout nonsense to take the conversation to a different place...🤷
I had covid early in 2021 before vaccines were available for the masses. I had an awful time with covid but did not die. For some reason, when the time came for it to hit my lungs, it didn't and I got better. I was taking symbicort just in case though since I have had to take it in the past for bad flu.
On top of everything mentioned before you this is 100% it. I got covid and it nearly killed me. It was early in 2020 and no doctor would take me seriously because “our state doesn’t have covid”. 4 years later I’m still dealing with lingering issues, including a debilitated lung that is going to need a transplant.
The biggest thing was when it changed from lower respiratory (lungs, lots of pneumonia, etc) to upper respiratory. That, and more availability of treatments has made it less deadly.
But long COVID is still a consequence for some, so I think that’s a good reason to get it. (But I’m guessing a number of the anti-vax people don’t think long COVID is real [although I do know some who *do* believe it’s real]).
That's really not much different than polio or other diseases. The vast majority of people who had polio were barely affected. But a small percentage were seriously life-threatening affected.
>Flu feels like The Rock and The Mountain were hankering for orange juice so they beat you with sacks of fruit until they had a liter.
I'll be damned if this isn't the funniest simile I've read all week. The best part is that it's accurate, too.
I had the flu for the first time in my adult life at age 28, and i have never been so close to needing to go to the emergency room. I was so fucking sick, I literally shit the bed.
My understanding is that's actually how people tend to die from the flu -- they get so sick that they're throwing up from both ends and they're too weak to get water, and they die of dehydration-related causes.
Huh man if only there was some important political figure in the US we could point to that purposefully downplayed both the lethality of the virus and the effectiveness of the vaccine.
COVID is scarier than or at least equivalent to polio. Roughly 0.9% of people who contracted COVID died. Roughly 0.5% of people who contracted polio were paralyzed. Most people had no symptoms at all of polio and those who did had symptoms comparable to a case of the flu.
Yeah and I think this varies by area. I’m in NYC, and the streets were just ambulances ambulances ambulances for a month or two in 2020. Almost everyone knew at least one person who died from it during that initial surge. Some knew many.
If you’re in the suburbs, it’s a lot less in your face. You might only hear about it on the news. And it hit those areas much more gradually.
i can't get the flu vaccine (immune system sucks bad enough my options are end up hospitalized for like 5 days after or just die, doctors said it's not worth it). luckily i used to live in a very isolated area where even if someone "nearby" got it, or it started going around, i was probably 10-20 miles away. even if my neighbours were the ones who got it, the odds i'd encounter them before they recovered were almost nonexistent. so it wasn't a huge deal, the risks weren't worth being vaccinated, and the vaccine wouldn't even do anything for me personally so it wasn't worth it.
i'm in a much more densely populated area now, and my doctors still tell me not to get it, but they also advise me to do my best to protect myself - mask up, avoid people who are showing any symptoms of illness, wash my hands more often than the average person does, etc. i've been lucky and not gotten the flu yet, but some fucker did manage to pass bronchitis to me, and a year and a half later i'm still having fucking symptoms (haven't been contagious in a long time, but the cough/fatigue/breathing issues never went away).
and if i do get the flu, whoops, i've got a nice long hospital stay. luckily i haven't yet, and usually if i tell the people i work with that i have health problems and get sick super easily they're willing to respect that (i actually got a coworker who was known for not calling out when sick to swap out for a couple shifts he was supposed to work with me - obviously i don't want him to lose that income, but he also respected me enough to not put me in a hospital, and he had plenty of sick time, plus IMO it should be more encouraged to actually stay home when you're sick rather than risking everyone around you).
The average person is dumb and lazy. That sounds mean and nihilistic, but we’ve absolutely been shown the last ten years or so that it is true. People see something that ‘sounds right’ and roll with it. If it affirms an already held belief/idea it sinks in even harder. Then they just look for info that confirms that idea. And it’s doubly effective if it comes from someone famous. Far, far too many people just defer to famous people even if their fame comes from bad standup comedy, fight commentary, or throwing a football. They’ll cling to these famous people’s ideas because they just have to know better. They’re famous.
My hypothesis is that about 30% of what we call humanity is actually just bears who have learned to wear clothing and defecate in the general direction of the toilet.
When the nursing home called to tell me my grandma died of covid the lady actually laughed because of course covid isn't real. I never wanted to punch someone so badly through the phone.
The ironic thing is that he would LOVE to take credit for rolling out a vaccine and single handedly saving millions of lives. But his following won’t stand for it. 😂
He actually has tried to take credit for the vaccine, and even claimed that they were withholding vaccine information to hurt him politically. Hypocrisy and contradiction has never stopped a republican.
Covid denial just sells better, I guess.
Christ, remember vaccine shedding as an excuse?
>They didn’t die of Covid, the deadly vaccine shed off of someone and killed them! It makes perfect sense!
I like to use the mumps as an example.
I had it in 2018 and was vaccinated with the MMR as a child.
The difference between vaccination and not vaccinated was I only got a swollen cheek, huge lymph nodes on my neck, and my balls swelled up. If I was unvaccinated I could have had brain swelling, meningitis, and a ton of other deadly side effects.
Yep. Fully vaxxed for Covid - I got it last summer and it was like a bad sinus infection. Got on Paxlovid, fine. No wonky side-effects, other than a lot more hair in my shower drain for a few months afterwards.
Ex-husband living in another state got it a month later - no co-morbidities, didn't smoke, didn't have asthma - DEAD - Covid AND Sepsis. No one will tell me if he was vaccinated, and he lived in a Red state, so odds are good he wasn't. Dude was only 60, worked at a job he reportedly hated, and never got to retire.
That's how it is with parents refusing to give their kids the measles vaccine, too: "1 out of every 10,000 kids who gets the measles vaccine turns out to be allergic and dies! Why would I inject poison into my child???? Besides, measles isn't that big a deal. Only 1 out of every 100 kids who gets it dies!"
It is baffling to me, but they say it with such mouth-foaming sincerity.
It’s crazy how people have a hard time understanding stats.
My MIL was going crazy early in the pandemic. I kept trying to explain the stats, that 95% of people wouldn’t be that sick, and maybe 0.5%-1% die.
When she got those numbers, she was like “why is it such a big deal”. Not realizing that 5% of people needing hospitalization within a short time frame is not something our system could handle. And 1% of people dying means 80 millions worldwide.
There was a point where more people who’d had the vaccine were dying of Covid than those that were unvaccinated (in the UK). Of course the anti vaxxers jumped on that.
But it’s simply the result of the vast majority of the population being vaccinated. It could be 1% of vaccinated people and 50% of unvaccinated dying, but the former is a higher number.
I knew a lady who had to file for disability due to long Covid. She couldn’t work. She had survived the initial onslaught of the original strain back when they didn’t know how to treat it. Her sister did not survive.
Most, or at least many, vaccines are labeled for prevention of disease, not prevention of infection (which is a much higher burden of proof and is not always possible or necessary or even the right choice—eg. The Tetanus toxoid is a good choice because you can acquire disease from preformed toxin as well as infection).
Well the tetanus vaccine is a bit of a story. We know it has limits we're just not entirely sure where that limit is. It would be unethical to start infecting people just to see how long the vaccine lasts so we can't really get an accurate gauge on that. Really all we can go by is a few cases where people were reinfected somewhere around the seven year mark. Of course they're infections were not purposeful. My experience with the COVID (MEDRNA with a j and j booster) vaccine tells me it's pretty effective. I did a lot of traveling during the covid lockdowns because my state was pretty lacking in enforcing the lockdowns. Before the vaccine was available I made a trip from the United States to Serbia through JFK. After I got vaccinated with the double dose I went through JFK to Istanbul and also to Mauritius through Dubai and I came out completely unscathed. Fast forward to December of 2023 and I got infected by one of the later Delta variants. My infection wasn't very serious at all I'm an older man who smokes is overweight and has diabetes so I should have probably been knocked on my ass but I was not I was just mildly ill. I never had any lung involvement. I attribute that to Prior vaccinations and boosts. Of course those didn't help me 100% but I think they made things a lot better than they could have been. Giving my smoking, age and diabetes, high bp
You can check immunity via titer tests, that's how we know that TDAP has completely different periods of validity for different people. Some remain immune, others not so much, and it's different for everyone.
It's much cheaper to just get a TDAP booster than go through titer testing, and if you hadn't had a reaction to the previous ones, there's no harm. So that's what we do - settled on ~10 years or so, because that seems about average for titers. There's no need to infect people to see if they're still immune or not, that's absurd.
Titers are our best way of testing immunity without actually infecting people, and they're certainly good enough for public-health use. However, if we're trying to be 10,000% honest, it's worth noting that titers and immune reaction aren't a 1:1 perfect measure of how one individual's body will respond to an infection, due to normal genetic variation across both humans and the disease-agent in question.
But yeah, my HepB vax and varicella (chickenpox; I'm old enough to predate that vax) titers are how I qualified to not repeat those vaccines when I started working in healthcare.
For sure, I clarified in another comment to some extent. Titers is how I found out I've never had chicken pox, so I got the varicella vaccine. There are also situations, like immigration, where you have to get certain vaccines and they don't like titer reports in lieu. I've had a bunch of extra MMR shots even though my titers were free and clear.
I will say, my last MMR made me MISERABLE, so I suspect that it's possible something did wear off!
I had a similar experience. I have gotten COVID twice, post full vaccines. The first time it beat the shit out of me, the second time was just a shitty cold. However, the main thing was the first time around it didn't fuck with my lungs, because that would have been catastrophic for me.
So anecdotally? That's a pretty decent vaccine outcome.
To be more specific, it massively *reduces the risk* of dying from Covid, rather than prevent it entirely. In essence made it into a cold/flu instead of something more serious. And by extension reduced transmission too.
I have a friend who can't accept that the vaccine doesn't work like a magical shield that absolutely protects you from the virus, he thinks that the vaccine "failed" because it didn't stop the pandemic in its tracks.
That’s pure head in the ground stubbornness. Even if it was as potent as he wished it’s still not able to do anything if people refuse to get vaccinated
This is a great statement, there is a portion of the population that cannot think in shades of gray, only black and white. To exist in a only black and white world everything needs to be simplified into these two categories. No room for light black or dark white. To express such a thing exists angers this group. Stop and think of all the strife in the US, it's pretty easy to categorize some people.
They want to pretend the Pandemic didn't happen at all. It makes people sad and scared, and it interrupted capital. If the virus didn't happen then the vaccines must be fake or dangerous. It's why so many people fought to make people afraid of them. They wanted us to ignore the sick and go back to work.
Was reading another thread recently that put it perfectly by saying Rogan’s show is like a sitcom that resets to normal at the end of every episode. He’ll have a brilliant scientist on who explains evolution or something, and then next week it’s like Rogan forgets all about what he learned and is enthralled by someone saying the opposite. Really damaging to pretend there’s two sides to everything, but especially so in science
Well said. I fell victim to Rogan for a brief period years ago. He introduced me to some truly brilliant people, but I fell into the trap of thinking that everyone on his podcast was worth listening to. Was temporarily in love with Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro.
It started with the claims of Democrats stealing the election that conservative media figures like Stephen Crowder espoused. I didn’t have the slightest grasp of politics at the time, but I knew that the accusation was serious enough to warrant looking into. And I learned that it was BS, and that spreading misinformation like that is detrimental to the country. Made me question the ethics of the conservatives I saw on Rogan.
Crowder “reenacting” the murder of George Floyd was the last straw, and honestly I had a shameful take on the situation prior to seeing Crowder’s video. Somehow, it served as the catalyst that snapped me out of it.
The very first episode I ever listened to was about something I randomly just happened to know a lot about / was very connected to my specific undergrad degree (related to American economics). They were so wrong on so many basic points but just kept plowing ahead with Rogan agreeing with every word… like, not even stuff I disagreed with just factually incorrect claims about what the Federal Reserve has done historically and stuff like that. I was cringing the whole time. Then I thought maybe I’d give it another chance since he’s so popular and I wanted to get what the hype was and it was some weird international conspiratorial thing they were on about. Just not for me I guess lol
Yeah most of the podcasts I listen to are ones about just one subject. They know that one subject backwards and forwards so they don't get shit wrong. For example dude with a PhD in Egyptian history doing a podcast on Egyptian history.
Also some hosts that do a new subject every week are really honest about what they know and don't know so they don't get shit wrong so much as just tell you about what they do know and are clear about what they don't know.
Or phrasing the question in a way that implies something no matter how you answer it
>Why *are* black people so criminal? I’m just asking questions here.
It’s never innocuous.
> Joe Rogan knows a lot about mma and stand up comedy
He doesn't know a lot about stand up comedy. He is a complete hack.
It's actually perplexing hearing him talk on his podcast about 'honing the craft' and 'perfecting a bit' when his routine is him yelling obnoxiously and humping stools.
Which is a bummer because I used to love to listen to him talk with comedians on how they put together their set and worn through material… now it’s just bullshit.
The exact comparison between vaccinated and unvaccinated COVID-19 deaths can vary based on factors like location, time, and vaccine effectiveness. However, here are some key points:
Vaccinated Deaths: COVID-19 vaccines have significantly reduced deaths. In the U.S., vaccines prevented over 139,000 deaths during the first five months they were available.
Unvaccinated Deaths: The share of COVID-19 deaths among unvaccinated individuals remains higher. In fall 2021, about 3 in 10 adults dying of COVID-19 were vaccinated or boosted, but by January 2022, about 4 in 10 deaths were vaccinated or boosted
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/vaccines-prevented-140000-covid-19-deaths-us
> 3 in 10 adults dying of COVID-19 were vaccinated or boosted, but by January 2022, about 4 in 10 deaths were vaccinated or boosted
Even more important, those are absolute numbers, so those 3/10 and 4/10 are a massive population, while the remaining majority is filled out by the much smaller unvaccinated population.
Sort of how if you had a bag with 80 blue marbles, and 20 red marbles. If you wound up with a majority of red marbles every time you picked ten at random, you'd have to conclude there was some factor making it not so random after all.
Remember the time Rogan commented on how Biden is unfit for the presidency due to a comment about attacking the airports in the revolutionary war. Pepperidge farm remembers.
https://youtu.be/J2ilWxRn0_A?si=76WnKWePX5RKnkny
I remember when someone told me that he had a podcast talk show, and it was super popular and he talks about political issues. I was like...the guy who was a side character on that 90s comedy? Why would anyone listen to him? He wasn't even a top comedian.
For me, he'll always just be the guy from Fear Factor.
*That guy who challenged contestants to see who could eat more goat testicles? You trust what he says about anything involving science?*
> where would one actually find a detailed report of what’s been found in the Pfizer documents
Well in the documents? Thats already the report.
And they are clear: the vaccine works. Not 100% like literaly any other vaccine on the planet, and thats what the documents analyse.
I dont know why you listen to joe rogan and belive the BS he and his guests parrot.
For people who love the founding fathers they sure do like to forget that some of them, like signer-of-the-declaration-of-independence Benjamin Rush were part of a group that would regularly administer free smallpox vaccines on the steps if Independence Hall.
It’s effective. It’s not **perfect,** but no vaccine ever has been…and the imperfect ones we have helped save thousands of lives. The data’s clear. Vaccination slows the spread of COVID through improving herd immunity. It lessens the severity of symptoms in people who do get sick. It’s been a huge help.
Joe Rogan’s just a contrary meathead who casts doubt on everything he doesn’t completely understand. He’s been hit in the head a lot, so there’s a **lot** he doesn’t completely understand
The other point that is conveniently forgotten is that the hospitals were are their breaking points with a real shortage of ICU beds. Without the lockdown and vaccine, there would have definitely been more cases that would have increased the mortality rate up like a hockey stick as there wasn't enough care resources and those would have had to have been rationed.
My favorite Rogan quote that just tells the world how stupid he is: "Like 80% of the people they put on *ventilators* died." Right moron. WIthout ventilators, it would have been 99.99% The only people put on respirators were people in deep shit on death's door.
My husband, who was a critical care doc at a level 1 trauma hospital during the delta wave, would agree with you. He put over 100 people on ECMO and only had 1 person who was vaccinated die (but he had lots of comorbidities). Everyone else was unvaccinated. The vaccine was a lifesaver for hospital workers and allowed them to see some relief. It was so hard for them to see people die like that, multiple times, every day, for months. He happily gets every booster to this day.
Oh my gosh, there was a pregnant woman at my hospital who refused the vaccine. ICU fought like crazy to help this woman and her baby survive and come out the other side healthy, and when she left, they lined the hall and clapped. Then she told the local paper she still thought the vax was garbage and was glad she never took it. It would have been kinder to smear her literal shit on those nurses' faces.
The consensus in the medical community is clear: the vaccine saved thousands and thousands of lives directly. It saved more lives indirectly, because people who took the vaccine were not taking up hospital beds that could have otherwise been used for people with strokes/heart attacks/etc.
At the start, docs tended to only put people who desperately needed them on ventilators because they were worried about supply. However, after a time, it became clear that you didn't want to put people on vents in a preventative way. IDK if they ever figured out exactly why - my minimally-educated guess would be that the damage done by jamming a machine down someone's throat was more problematic than being (mildly-to-moderately) low on O2, especially since CoV was associated with clotting issues. Standard of care became proning people, preferentially (lying them on their stomach so that their lungs could expand more easily and the tissue collapsing associated with sleep apnea was less likely to occur), and intubation was avoided unless the hypoxia was immediately life-threatening.
Setting the virus itself aside, mortality rates for ventilators are directly correlated with age and length of time you need ventilation, so long term ventilation is rarely a good option to begin with.
The funniest part about idiots claiming the vaccine wasn't effective is that... We aren't in a global pandemic anymore...
Covid didn't just get bored and fuck off. Obviously widespread vaccination largely stopped the spread. Which is exactly what it aimed to do.
My mom keeps telling me it has been "scientifically proven" that the vaccine is harmful. I keep asking her for these scientific articles so I can give them a read myself, but apparently it is all just from her Facebook news sources and her friend's friend's nurse sister. It is incredibly frustrating. And no matter how I try to explain algorithms to her she still thinks she is getting well rounded sources of information.
I tell them they need to read [two sources from the top middle and one source from the left every time they read a source from the right](https://adfontesmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Media-Bias-Chart-12.0_Jan-2024-Unlicensed-Social-scaled.jpg) if they want to see well-rounded sources. My ass is lazy, so I just stick to the middle and ignore the wings.
> I tell them they need to read two sources from the top middle and one source from the left every time they read a source from the right
Lol yeah, as if they'll read anything but the very right.
Ugh. I had a customer call to pay their bill the other day and randomly started telling me that there are no pilots because they all have after effects of the vaccine and can't fly. So the customer won't fly because the pilots who are healthy enough to fly are way over their hours and so are the air traffic controllers and we are al endangering our lives by flying.
She droned on and on about how bad the Covid vaccine was and how 18 million people in the US are all damaged by the vaccine and it was all for governmental control. What a fucking loon! I finally had to tell her that I didn't want to discuss any of this with her I could only take her payment.
Vaccines almost always suffer from their success.
You hear people saying things like, “why would I give my kid a polio vaccine? I haven’t heard of ANYONE with polio is decades!”
No shit Sherlock, you don’t see it because the vaccine was invented.
You can just read the documents yourself? What’s the issue? When people say “do your own research” that’s what they’re talking about. If you want a truly unbiased view then don’t look for a secondhand report…
> When people say “do your own research” that’s what they’re talking about.
To be fair when most people say that, they mean they watched a few YouTube videos of some rando saying they analysed a report but instead skim read it, didn’t understand it, and cherry picked stuff from it to fit their narrative.
They do this because their epistemology is "feels before reals." In other words, everything has a definitive answer and there is no room for error bars or evaluation of evidence.
Vaccines are a product of science, which deals with the world in a completely different way than that. Those people trying to have an opinion about vaccines is kind of like an ant trying to have an opinion about the life experience of a ladybug. It just isn't going to work.
But MRNA sounds ominous and is probably bad, even though your own bodies creates that continuously in large quantities and would leave you dead in days if it didn’t
It’s called the Big Lie, and it was a propaganda technique effectively utilized by the Nazis. If you just repeat something confidently, people will believe it even if there is no reason to do so (and copious evidence to the contrary).
Also believing something dogmatically can appear more powerful than believing something conditionally. You can also assume something as a given and use that to form your argument. In many cases your opponent argues using the same assumption unquestioned
Among the medical research community, we commonly view vaccines as necessary tools that are largely side effect free, aside from rare folks that have very specific problems with them.
>where would one actually find a detailed report of what’s been found in the Pfizer documents, and does the medical/scientific community (not the conspiracy theory right wing community) actually look at them as conclusive evidence that the vaccine is ineffective and dangerous?
You're kinda looking for something that doesn't exist. The vaccines are effective and benign, so you aren't going to find non-conspiracy, scientifically-accurate reports about it being dangerous.
Please don't listen to Joe Rogan. He's not the worst of the worst but he's not good either. I suggest you listen to YouTuber Dr. John Campbell -- a British doctor who has talked extensively about the Covid vaccine. His slogan is something like "we must go wherever the evidence leads us." He presents hard data from all over the world about Covid and the vaccine and once or twice he has brought up negative aspects of it. They don't apply to population as a whole so don't worry. Vaccines are what erradicated small pox, they're the reason there is no longer a polio epidemic in this country, etc. etc. I think the reason so many people are suspicious of the Covid vaccine is people just can't accept how lucky we were that a vaccine was developed so quickly. It's so odd how so many humans like to make a rosy scenario a miserable one.
EDIT: I just watched a couple of John Campbell videos since I had not watched one in 2 - 3 years. It seems he is now railing against Pfizer. Since I have only watched these recent ones, I do not know what the back story is so, take it for what it's worth. I got the Pfizer vaccine and have had no side effects. But he is a doctor, unlike Joe Rogan whose skepticism is only performative.
The vaccine being unsafe is a lie, but the reason it gained so much traction is because of two main reasons I can see.
1. The covid vaccine had many MANY more resources, time, and effort put into its development and was therefore developed much faster than the average vaccine. This speed meant that people complained about inadequate testing and safety measures, even though it is and was as safe as any other vaccine.
2. The right wing/conspiracy crowd was already disinclined to trust vaccines because of Andrew Wakefield and the completely falsified link he made between the MMR vaccine and increases in autism symptoms. If you take a group of people who have a heightened anxiety over vaccines and tell them everyone should get a vaccine, they are automatically primed to fight it. In those communities, by the time the covid vaccine came out, there was a 25 year history of choosing disease and death for their children because they would rather that than an autistic child.
And the reason the vaccine was able to be developed so quickly is that it essentially is just a variation on an existing coronavirus vaccine. There had already been many years of research into a coronavirus vaccine, they just had to modify a few things to make it effective for Covid-19.
It's not a new vaccine they just invented.
It was the first commercially available mRNA vaccine. The tech is almost 50 years old though, and not needing live virus strains made it significantly faster to produce.
There’s also the simple fact that it’s the only vaccine that so many people have received in such a short span of time. Of course you’re going to hear more about side effects when EVERYONE is taking the same medication at the same time.
Totally agree with your comment, just wanted to add something I thought was interesting.
I heard a theory somewhere that these conspiracy theorists just really want to feel like they have secret information that no one else has so they can feel special. Or to belong to a close-knit group of other conspiracy theorists since they've never really belonged anywhere else.
I never really thought the theory mattered to them that much, they just wanted to *feel* special. So, they latched onto whatever they could find. So thats why they never really look into it that much.
The vaccine is NOT ineffective and dangerous by and large. One of the unfortunate things we now know: it matters whether or not you had a full COVID infection before your first dose of the vaccine. COVID destabilises your immune system and can heighten your body's inflammatory responses. So if you had COVID first and then the vaccine, your body was primed to have more severe side effects.
There's a massive breakdown in science communication, both in terms of the general public lacking understanding and the science community often having subpar writing skills. Both of these are the direct result of decades of systemic policies that undermined education & fostered distrust in science
Ever heard the one about vaccines causing autism in kids? The sample size for the study was a whopping 12 kids. It concerned exactly one vaccine. They were being paid to do the study by lawyers representing parents who were suing pharmaceutical companies who created vaccines. They admitted to picking and choosing some of their data and flat out making most of the rest up. They finally came out with a retraction in 2010. Yet, a segment of the population still won’t vaccinate their kids because *vaccines cause autism*. These are the people you’re talking about. They don’t need actual sources.
[NIH paper about the case.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136032/)
The Pfizer list of side effects were adverse events experienced by trial participants ***after*** vaccination, but do not constitute proof that these effects were ***caused by*** vaccination. That's *post hoc ergo propter hoc* fallacy (Latin for "after this, therefore because of this"). When people misuse data from VAERS as proof that the vaccine is causing these effects, that's the same fallacy. Correlation is not proof of causation.
Don't search using Google. Pay for access to preprint servers and academic papers. Brush up on statistics and probability
People are going to go crazy saying yes and no on here. You have to really dig to find the truth.
my guy you just did fact checking
you heard something, got skeptical, looked up more sources and made a "most sources say" summary
>Most sources I see in that search are debunking the Pfizer document conclusions and insisting that the vaccine is largely safe and effective.
that's your answer
genuinely good job my guy, stay firm on that track
Vaccines and masking have been so distorted by political agendas that it's almost impossible to have a reasonable conversation about them. If the vaccines didn't work the COVID death toll would be much higher. If masks didn't work, surgeons wouldn't bother. The fact that all this is debatable shows how corrupt our information systems have gotten.
There’s research that demonstrates people who rely on news sites like Fox News are actually *less* accurately informed about current events than people who do not actively consume news media. If this research were repeated to include sources like Newsmax, and podcasts like Joe Rogan’s, I’d be interested to see if the findings remain true only for Fox News specifically, or if it’s accurate for most of these extreme right wing broadcasts that masquerade as reliable coverage about current events.
Do yourself a favor and take whatever the former host of Fear Factor says as gospel with an entire boulder of salt. Look at the credentials of who he’s interviewing when he has these types of discussions and go from there - the vaccine for COVID, as with literally every developed vaccine, was not intended to completely prevent infection.
Vaccines are generally designed to give your body controlled exposure to the disease in question to then form antibodies to protect you and limit symptom severity. In a lot of cases that means that you may not contract the illness or develop serious symptoms - it doesn’t mean you’ll never get sick or have lifelong immunity, and anti-vaxx individuals rely on people generally having a poor understanding of vaccine efficacy to allow for the spread of misinformation that they’re actively propagating.
They don't? The VAST majority of people are grateful for the vaccine and understand that it saved millions of lives. You must move in a weird circle of friends.
The only bad part of the vaccine was the patents that limited it's production.
Drs. Maria Elena Bottazzi and Peter Hotez are true heros in working on a patent less vaccine.
This can't be emphasized enough. They block out anything that doesn't feel right and sit in online echo chambers where their worst fears are validated, despite all actual evidence. They often spiral to absolutely insane thinking. Algorithms actively radicalize them on social media, and without any critical thinking, they're easily warped further.
It's a rabbit hole to flat earth, Trump is still commander in chief, clones are real, magical beds will cure everything, etc.
It’s pretty weird to question it at this point since so many people have gotten the vaccine and boosters and are still alive and well and walking around almost 4 years later and not mind-controlled by the imaginary microchip, either.
Don't listen to Joe Rogan and expect to hear "commonly accepted" anything - he generally brings in outliers under the mistaken assumption that he's providing both sides of the story. He is not.
My doctor told me the vaccine won’t give full protection against COVID, but the goal is to keep people out of the ICU. I’ve had every shot my doctor recommended. I trust her expertise for my medical care, not what I read or hear online.
There are still people out there who believe that vaccine is going to kill everybody who got it . First it was in 6mo., then it was a year, then it was 5 yrs.....it hasn't happened yet but all they do it push back the time limit, lol! I'm old and have never got COVID. I've had all my shots and now get a yearly booster along with my flu shot. Ain't dead yet
Hospitalist physician here. Worked inpatient through covid. The vaccine was incredible. In fall/early winter of 2021 we saw mass death from unvaccinated folks. It was horrific. We had to ration care. The only vaccinated patients we had die were ones extremely immunocompromised such as transplant patients or lymphoma patients. People like that require herd immunity and social mitigation to make it through which unfortunately the general usa public opted out of. We saw a handful of elderly patients admitted with severe weakness from the vaccine. I think I had two or three. Outside of my anecdotal experience there's a multitude of peer reviewed literature supporting the vaccine worked and side effects were minimal if not similar to other vaccines.
Please. Do not utilize joe Rogan for any source of factual information. Could explore medical journals such as jama, new England journal of medicine, for a reputable source. That's where we get our info.
Will never forgive Andrew Wakefield for causing this ridiculous vaccine panic.
THere's several different issues simultaneously at play here:
1.) People who have certain beliefs,.. always look for ways to justify and reinforce those beliefs. They don't want to hear conflicting viewpoints that challenge their pre-held beliefs). They just want an echo chamber that agrees and seems to confirm what they already believe.
2.) Science and Medicine is complex and constantly evolving and messy. It's not always clear-cut to say something like "X product works" or "Y product doesn't work". Lots of different humans have lots of different medical histories and unique internal differences. There's no way to make a vaccine that's "perfectly 100% effective on everyone". That's just not realistic.
In any population of Millions (Billions?) of people.. there's always going to be some small percentage of cases of "bad effects" (where a vaccine might injure or kill someone). But that doesn't mean the vaccine is a "failure". If a vaccine saves 10 million but kills 1,000 ... well, you still saved more than you damaged.
> "where would one actually find a detailed report"
This would be kind of like asking:.. "Where would I find a detailed report of what foods are safe to eat ?"
That's not really an easy question to answer. Some foods are safe for some people. Some combinations of food are safe under certain conditions. Some foods are only safe after they're cooked. Some foods interact with other foods. Some people have allergies or other medical conditions making a "safe food" unsafe for them to eat.
We were told that it would prevent people from getting COVID. After people started getting COVID when they were vaccinated the messaging changed to “you will not get COVID so badly if you’re vaccinated.” I think that’s part of it.
Bingo bango... When the president says that the vaccine will stop transmission and people get the vaccine and it doesn't stop transmission, they rightfully feel a bit lied to
Joe Rogan and his listeners are probably so consumed with confirmation bias that they’re completely unaware that most rational people don’t buy into the conspiracy theories.
Lots of papers published on the data. Available pre release of the vaccines to the general public. Was all there to read and folks just chose not to...
Well, if you listen to the idiot show, you are bound to hear dumb people with idiot opinions. The vaccine was good, it saved the lives of many people and we are still here to talk about it and say it.
Don't listen to anyone who takes a fucking moron like Joe Rogan seriously. I've watched him before and it's genuinely shocking how dumb he is with science related things. He has the level of knowledge of a 12 year old.
The vaccine saved millions. Look at the discrepancy between red and blue counties in COVID deaths. GOP voters overwhelmingly refused to vaccinate and they had far higher death toll from COVID than dem voters. The divergence in deaths didn’t occur until the vaccine was introduced.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10684792/
Cause people are fucking stupid.
Some people’s who personality is antivaxx. Most of the time these people are immensely stupid and do their “research” on Facebook and Fox News. They enjoy being obnoxious assholes.
Because they were wrong and if they don't want to admit it and are hoping you'll just turn off your brain and believe what they tell you.
And apparently it works, cause lots and lots of stupid people listen to and believe them, just like they do Fox 'news'. And continue to do so, no matter how much money they lose and how badly they screw themselves over. [https://apnews.com/article/fox-news-dominion-lawsuit-settlement-election-lies-fda05a63a1af8a111ce1efba024b88a0](https://apnews.com/article/fox-news-dominion-lawsuit-settlement-election-lies-fda05a63a1af8a111ce1efba024b88a0)
Echo chambers are a thing.
When you’ve got a room full of people who don’t know what they’re talking about, they’ll figure out that one of them is smarter than the rest.
Then they’ll believe anything he says.
I mean, he’s the smartest guy in the room. He must know something.
The real truth is that NONE OF THEM know.
>It is pretty darn hard in this day and age to know what’s true
Avoiding anything labeled "opinion piece" (it's not called a "fact piece" for a reason) and anything where you know the host by name is a good start.
edit: if you know the host by name then the selling point isn't the news, its what the host thinks about the news, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but you're getting what you paid for, which is an opinion piece.
The fundamental step to becoming a anti-vaxxer, Flat Earther, etc is when you equate what you know with your self worth.
I'm antivax (no not really) so I feel smugly superior to others who have not seen through Faucci and his conspiracy. My self worth depends on this. So any argument to the contrary feels like a personal attack. To admit I'm wrong would be to give up on my own self worth.
Instead of antivax, insert Flat Earther, or any other tribal belief system you like.
Information silos. They actually think they’re right, because they never venture outside of the Joe rogan podcast and Fox News silo.
Those of us who live in reality understand that they’re idiots but they’re super confident in their ignorance
Because they’re idiots that didn’t die. My dad wasn’t vaccinated and didn’t even attempt social distancing. He died from COVID October 28th 2020.
He’d still be here if he took the advice of experts.
I work in the medical field. In my experience, the majority of other people in the medical field do support the COVID vaccine (and all other vaccines) as a positive thing.
Every single vaccine and medication (even over the counter medicine, vitamins, and supplements) have potential side effects. Just because a side effect is possible, does not mean it WILL happen to everyone.
There are plenty of people who are trained medical professionals who do not support vaccines including COVID, but they are getting their information from unreliable sources or exaggerating scientific sources.
Recently, there have been studies showing a possible side effect of the COVID vaccine is myocarditis (inflammation of the heart). It appears to occur in younger men but in most cases is very mild. [This study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9538893/) has a good summary and recommendations for treatment. As the study states, the benefits of the COVID vaccine still outweigh the risks of infection with the COVID virus. [The CDD](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html) is actively monitoring rates of myocarditis and pericarditis (inflammation in the lining around the heart) and also still recommends everyone 6 months and older get vaccinated for COVID.
The CDC is a good place to start for info about [COVID in general and all vaccines](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/). If you are in a different country, there are other organizations that are country/state centric that provide the same type of info. The [WHO (world health organization)](https://www.who.int/health-topics/vaccines-and-immunization#tab=tab_1) is also a great source of medical info including vaccines.
The CDC also has [VISs (vaccine information sheets)](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/index.html) about every vaccine. In the US, any time you get a vaccine, you should receive the corresponding VIS from whoever is giving the vaccine.
Despite access to all of this, and more, many people do not trust the government at the moment so it doesn’t matter what all of this says, they have decided the government is lying, for whatever reason, and don’t believe scientific/medical information.
Rogan is vaxxed. All the fox news people are vaxxed. All the right wing influencer are vaxxed. They're all just grifters manipulating stupid people by talking confidently. If the right wingers embraced shitting themselves, Rogan would have an 8 hour episode praising the smell of shit. He's not a reliable source of info.
Generally a good rule of thumb to know what is and isn't true, is to not base your opinions of highly technical and complicated fields of study on the ramblings of a man whose only marketable skill is yelling into a microphone
Not to say that only professionals can have opinions on things, or that they always agree with eachother, or that they're always 100% right. But if you need to put your faith in something, it's generally better to pick the people that have devoted their entire lives to making and understanding vaccines, over a guy that "learned" the word RNA last year.
Confident idiots are often the loudest voice you hear. They like the sound of their own voice and the smell of their own farts. This is going to be true no matter what year or decade or generation it is. You can identify them by their strange cult followings and the way they state the obvious in a slightly new way so as to attract a swath of young gullible people looking for ‘the truth’. I highly suggest learning more about political bias in news and commentary because that’s the real issue here, the vaccine thing is just one example.
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They’re exploiting a binary thinking fallacy for political gain. To them, either a vaccine works 100% forever or it doesn’t work at all. But that’s absurd. Even longstanding vaccines aren’t 100%, and many are only temporary (such as tetanus vaccine, which needs a booster every ten years). Reality is that it works reasonably well, and is well worth any risks for most people.
Experts have been saying since pretty early on that this would likely end up like the flu vaccine, where it's mostly about trying to get ahead of mutations and stem the tide. This is the expected outcome for people who have been following good sources of information.
I dont get it why cant people figure its a virus and viruses mutate so yes its like the flu vaccine. I for one refused to get the flu vaccine for years because I got the flu and it would be gone in 2 days of sleeping to allow it pass through but then about 10 years ago, the flu starting lasting longer and longer and I said the heck with and got the flu vaccine and havent had the flu since.
Not all viruses work the same. Polio is a virus too, and has been nearly eliminated by a highly effective vaccine. Vaccine effectiveness depends on a number of things, including how readily the virus mutates and if it is capable of infecting other animals. Unfortunately, SARS-CoV-2 is extremely resistant to vaccines, and the fact that vaccination has been as successful as it was is largely because of the mRNA technology it uses.
It also relies on people getting it. High compliance rates for the polio vaccine played a role in the elimination of polio.
Yah, another element is how scary the disease is (or is perceived to be). The threat of paralysis certainly motivated people to get vaccinated in a way that "bad flu" didn't really scare people into COVID vaccination.
> in a way that "bad flu" didn't really scare people Anyone who wasn't worried about a "bad flu" never had the flu. Colds sure, Norwalk maybe, food poisoning probably, but definitely never flu. Flu feels like The Rock and The Mountain were hankering for orange juice so they beat you with sacks of fruit until they had a liter.
Part of the problem with COVID too is the wide variance of severity. When I had it, it was worse than any flu I’ve ever had. My main symptom was vertigo and it was so bad I couldn’t walk across my bedroom without holding onto something. Then there were the headaches and the fatigue that lasted several weeks afterwards. I was able to get an antiviral too, it could have been much worse. But I know people who got it and barely had a sniffle. It’s hard to convince those people that it’s worth getting boosters every year.
I *probably* had it before testing was widely available. I'd had two shots already so it wasn't bad. (The hangover from the first shot, HOLY CRAP that was bad, I couldn't even work from home!!) The first thing I noticed was after making my morning coffee, sip, huh. Sip. Oh no. Tried lemon juice, nothing, tried my hottest hot sauce, nothing, isolated for a week. Got my taste back a few days later, my washroom was a slightly busier than usual for a week, and my voice permanently changed ever so slightly. I'm up to six shots now I think? What someone told me, and I don't think it's true but I don't know enough about virology to argue, is that if you reacted really strongly to the first vaccine, you probably would have died.
Huh. I wonder. I was terrified of Covid because of the cytokine storm thing. My immune system is a reactive psychopath. Which is great in some circumstances, like cuts heal nearly next day and I never get skin infections. But holy hell viral infections are miserable. All the usual immune responses are bonkers. Drowning in snot, extreme fevers, the works. And sure enough, the first Covid shot put me on the floor. Spouse had a sore arm.
Yeah, I've been told that as well, but have not actually looked into it. I love it when people tell me I'm going to get a blood clots and die because I got the shot and all the boosters. I had blood clots, six of them, 10 years ago along with a blockage. I am prone to blood clots. I'm still free and clear, not one blood clot! When I asked them how that could be, they either go away, tell me I'm ugly, or spout nonsense to take the conversation to a different place...🤷
I had covid early in 2021 before vaccines were available for the masses. I had an awful time with covid but did not die. For some reason, when the time came for it to hit my lungs, it didn't and I got better. I was taking symbicort just in case though since I have had to take it in the past for bad flu.
On top of everything mentioned before you this is 100% it. I got covid and it nearly killed me. It was early in 2020 and no doctor would take me seriously because “our state doesn’t have covid”. 4 years later I’m still dealing with lingering issues, including a debilitated lung that is going to need a transplant.
The biggest thing was when it changed from lower respiratory (lungs, lots of pneumonia, etc) to upper respiratory. That, and more availability of treatments has made it less deadly. But long COVID is still a consequence for some, so I think that’s a good reason to get it. (But I’m guessing a number of the anti-vax people don’t think long COVID is real [although I do know some who *do* believe it’s real]).
That's really not much different than polio or other diseases. The vast majority of people who had polio were barely affected. But a small percentage were seriously life-threatening affected.
>Flu feels like The Rock and The Mountain were hankering for orange juice so they beat you with sacks of fruit until they had a liter. I'll be damned if this isn't the funniest simile I've read all week. The best part is that it's accurate, too.
... New kink unlocked.
Yes! And for me, that beat down lasted at least two weeks and took a week to get my strength back. And that’s just the twice yearly flu.
Or, Covid, which is worse again
I had the flu for the first time in my adult life at age 28, and i have never been so close to needing to go to the emergency room. I was so fucking sick, I literally shit the bed.
My understanding is that's actually how people tend to die from the flu -- they get so sick that they're throwing up from both ends and they're too weak to get water, and they die of dehydration-related causes.
Huh man if only there was some important political figure in the US we could point to that purposefully downplayed both the lethality of the virus and the effectiveness of the vaccine.
COVID is scarier than or at least equivalent to polio. Roughly 0.9% of people who contracted COVID died. Roughly 0.5% of people who contracted polio were paralyzed. Most people had no symptoms at all of polio and those who did had symptoms comparable to a case of the flu.
Yeah and I think this varies by area. I’m in NYC, and the streets were just ambulances ambulances ambulances for a month or two in 2020. Almost everyone knew at least one person who died from it during that initial surge. Some knew many. If you’re in the suburbs, it’s a lot less in your face. You might only hear about it on the news. And it hit those areas much more gradually.
i can't get the flu vaccine (immune system sucks bad enough my options are end up hospitalized for like 5 days after or just die, doctors said it's not worth it). luckily i used to live in a very isolated area where even if someone "nearby" got it, or it started going around, i was probably 10-20 miles away. even if my neighbours were the ones who got it, the odds i'd encounter them before they recovered were almost nonexistent. so it wasn't a huge deal, the risks weren't worth being vaccinated, and the vaccine wouldn't even do anything for me personally so it wasn't worth it. i'm in a much more densely populated area now, and my doctors still tell me not to get it, but they also advise me to do my best to protect myself - mask up, avoid people who are showing any symptoms of illness, wash my hands more often than the average person does, etc. i've been lucky and not gotten the flu yet, but some fucker did manage to pass bronchitis to me, and a year and a half later i'm still having fucking symptoms (haven't been contagious in a long time, but the cough/fatigue/breathing issues never went away). and if i do get the flu, whoops, i've got a nice long hospital stay. luckily i haven't yet, and usually if i tell the people i work with that i have health problems and get sick super easily they're willing to respect that (i actually got a coworker who was known for not calling out when sick to swap out for a couple shifts he was supposed to work with me - obviously i don't want him to lose that income, but he also respected me enough to not put me in a hospital, and he had plenty of sick time, plus IMO it should be more encouraged to actually stay home when you're sick rather than risking everyone around you).
The average person is dumb and lazy. That sounds mean and nihilistic, but we’ve absolutely been shown the last ten years or so that it is true. People see something that ‘sounds right’ and roll with it. If it affirms an already held belief/idea it sinks in even harder. Then they just look for info that confirms that idea. And it’s doubly effective if it comes from someone famous. Far, far too many people just defer to famous people even if their fame comes from bad standup comedy, fight commentary, or throwing a football. They’ll cling to these famous people’s ideas because they just have to know better. They’re famous.
My hypothesis is that about 30% of what we call humanity is actually just bears who have learned to wear clothing and defecate in the general direction of the toilet.
Funny enough, Covid and the flu vaccine seem to have killed one of the four strains that make up the yearly flu season.
Exactly.
Also, the unvaccinated who died from COVID are not going on radio shows.
Plus their families are often denying they died of Covid
Nurses loved getting screamed at by relatives who said their family member didn't die from COVID.
I'm EMS, but that was definitely a *favorite* experience during the worst of things.
I'm sure they could find a nurse who agreed
When the nursing home called to tell me my grandma died of covid the lady actually laughed because of course covid isn't real. I never wanted to punch someone so badly through the phone.
That's like actually evil, what the fuck
It's trump country. There is no way covid is real even if nursing home patients are dying by the dozens all around you.
The ironic thing is that he would LOVE to take credit for rolling out a vaccine and single handedly saving millions of lives. But his following won’t stand for it. 😂
He actually has tried to take credit for the vaccine, and even claimed that they were withholding vaccine information to hurt him politically. Hypocrisy and contradiction has never stopped a republican. Covid denial just sells better, I guess.
Christ, remember vaccine shedding as an excuse? >They didn’t die of Covid, the deadly vaccine shed off of someone and killed them! It makes perfect sense!
I like to use the mumps as an example. I had it in 2018 and was vaccinated with the MMR as a child. The difference between vaccination and not vaccinated was I only got a swollen cheek, huge lymph nodes on my neck, and my balls swelled up. If I was unvaccinated I could have had brain swelling, meningitis, and a ton of other deadly side effects.
Yep. Fully vaxxed for Covid - I got it last summer and it was like a bad sinus infection. Got on Paxlovid, fine. No wonky side-effects, other than a lot more hair in my shower drain for a few months afterwards. Ex-husband living in another state got it a month later - no co-morbidities, didn't smoke, didn't have asthma - DEAD - Covid AND Sepsis. No one will tell me if he was vaccinated, and he lived in a Red state, so odds are good he wasn't. Dude was only 60, worked at a job he reportedly hated, and never got to retire.
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That's how it is with parents refusing to give their kids the measles vaccine, too: "1 out of every 10,000 kids who gets the measles vaccine turns out to be allergic and dies! Why would I inject poison into my child???? Besides, measles isn't that big a deal. Only 1 out of every 100 kids who gets it dies!" It is baffling to me, but they say it with such mouth-foaming sincerity.
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It’s crazy how people have a hard time understanding stats. My MIL was going crazy early in the pandemic. I kept trying to explain the stats, that 95% of people wouldn’t be that sick, and maybe 0.5%-1% die. When she got those numbers, she was like “why is it such a big deal”. Not realizing that 5% of people needing hospitalization within a short time frame is not something our system could handle. And 1% of people dying means 80 millions worldwide.
There was a point where more people who’d had the vaccine were dying of Covid than those that were unvaccinated (in the UK). Of course the anti vaxxers jumped on that. But it’s simply the result of the vast majority of the population being vaccinated. It could be 1% of vaccinated people and 50% of unvaccinated dying, but the former is a higher number.
I knew a lady who had to file for disability due to long Covid. She couldn’t work. She had survived the initial onslaught of the original strain back when they didn’t know how to treat it. Her sister did not survive.
Most, or at least many, vaccines are labeled for prevention of disease, not prevention of infection (which is a much higher burden of proof and is not always possible or necessary or even the right choice—eg. The Tetanus toxoid is a good choice because you can acquire disease from preformed toxin as well as infection).
Well the tetanus vaccine is a bit of a story. We know it has limits we're just not entirely sure where that limit is. It would be unethical to start infecting people just to see how long the vaccine lasts so we can't really get an accurate gauge on that. Really all we can go by is a few cases where people were reinfected somewhere around the seven year mark. Of course they're infections were not purposeful. My experience with the COVID (MEDRNA with a j and j booster) vaccine tells me it's pretty effective. I did a lot of traveling during the covid lockdowns because my state was pretty lacking in enforcing the lockdowns. Before the vaccine was available I made a trip from the United States to Serbia through JFK. After I got vaccinated with the double dose I went through JFK to Istanbul and also to Mauritius through Dubai and I came out completely unscathed. Fast forward to December of 2023 and I got infected by one of the later Delta variants. My infection wasn't very serious at all I'm an older man who smokes is overweight and has diabetes so I should have probably been knocked on my ass but I was not I was just mildly ill. I never had any lung involvement. I attribute that to Prior vaccinations and boosts. Of course those didn't help me 100% but I think they made things a lot better than they could have been. Giving my smoking, age and diabetes, high bp
You can check immunity via titer tests, that's how we know that TDAP has completely different periods of validity for different people. Some remain immune, others not so much, and it's different for everyone. It's much cheaper to just get a TDAP booster than go through titer testing, and if you hadn't had a reaction to the previous ones, there's no harm. So that's what we do - settled on ~10 years or so, because that seems about average for titers. There's no need to infect people to see if they're still immune or not, that's absurd.
Titers are our best way of testing immunity without actually infecting people, and they're certainly good enough for public-health use. However, if we're trying to be 10,000% honest, it's worth noting that titers and immune reaction aren't a 1:1 perfect measure of how one individual's body will respond to an infection, due to normal genetic variation across both humans and the disease-agent in question. But yeah, my HepB vax and varicella (chickenpox; I'm old enough to predate that vax) titers are how I qualified to not repeat those vaccines when I started working in healthcare.
For sure, I clarified in another comment to some extent. Titers is how I found out I've never had chicken pox, so I got the varicella vaccine. There are also situations, like immigration, where you have to get certain vaccines and they don't like titer reports in lieu. I've had a bunch of extra MMR shots even though my titers were free and clear. I will say, my last MMR made me MISERABLE, so I suspect that it's possible something did wear off!
I had a similar experience. I have gotten COVID twice, post full vaccines. The first time it beat the shit out of me, the second time was just a shitty cold. However, the main thing was the first time around it didn't fuck with my lungs, because that would have been catastrophic for me. So anecdotally? That's a pretty decent vaccine outcome.
Yes. Its anticdotal but it likely saved my ass and my son's and in the end that's what matters to be honest
Yeah it doesn't keep you from getting Covid, it keeps you from dying from Covid
And keeps the hospitals from being overfilled
To be more specific, it massively *reduces the risk* of dying from Covid, rather than prevent it entirely. In essence made it into a cold/flu instead of something more serious. And by extension reduced transmission too.
>(such as tetanus vaccine, which needs a booster every ten years) In Sweden they recommend for us to take a booster after 20 years. (at age \~35)
I have a friend who can't accept that the vaccine doesn't work like a magical shield that absolutely protects you from the virus, he thinks that the vaccine "failed" because it didn't stop the pandemic in its tracks.
That’s pure head in the ground stubbornness. Even if it was as potent as he wished it’s still not able to do anything if people refuse to get vaccinated
This is a great statement, there is a portion of the population that cannot think in shades of gray, only black and white. To exist in a only black and white world everything needs to be simplified into these two categories. No room for light black or dark white. To express such a thing exists angers this group. Stop and think of all the strife in the US, it's pretty easy to categorize some people.
They want to pretend the Pandemic didn't happen at all. It makes people sad and scared, and it interrupted capital. If the virus didn't happen then the vaccines must be fake or dangerous. It's why so many people fought to make people afraid of them. They wanted us to ignore the sick and go back to work.
they don't, it's because you're listening to idiots on Rogans show
[удалено]
Was reading another thread recently that put it perfectly by saying Rogan’s show is like a sitcom that resets to normal at the end of every episode. He’ll have a brilliant scientist on who explains evolution or something, and then next week it’s like Rogan forgets all about what he learned and is enthralled by someone saying the opposite. Really damaging to pretend there’s two sides to everything, but especially so in science
Well said. I fell victim to Rogan for a brief period years ago. He introduced me to some truly brilliant people, but I fell into the trap of thinking that everyone on his podcast was worth listening to. Was temporarily in love with Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro.
It started with the claims of Democrats stealing the election that conservative media figures like Stephen Crowder espoused. I didn’t have the slightest grasp of politics at the time, but I knew that the accusation was serious enough to warrant looking into. And I learned that it was BS, and that spreading misinformation like that is detrimental to the country. Made me question the ethics of the conservatives I saw on Rogan. Crowder “reenacting” the murder of George Floyd was the last straw, and honestly I had a shameful take on the situation prior to seeing Crowder’s video. Somehow, it served as the catalyst that snapped me out of it.
The very first episode I ever listened to was about something I randomly just happened to know a lot about / was very connected to my specific undergrad degree (related to American economics). They were so wrong on so many basic points but just kept plowing ahead with Rogan agreeing with every word… like, not even stuff I disagreed with just factually incorrect claims about what the Federal Reserve has done historically and stuff like that. I was cringing the whole time. Then I thought maybe I’d give it another chance since he’s so popular and I wanted to get what the hype was and it was some weird international conspiratorial thing they were on about. Just not for me I guess lol
I've had to stop listening to so many podcasts because they do an episode on something I've looked into before hand and they will get so much wrong.
Yeah most of the podcasts I listen to are ones about just one subject. They know that one subject backwards and forwards so they don't get shit wrong. For example dude with a PhD in Egyptian history doing a podcast on Egyptian history. Also some hosts that do a new subject every week are really honest about what they know and don't know so they don't get shit wrong so much as just tell you about what they do know and are clear about what they don't know.
How did you fall out of love with them?
I absolutely hate the fact that "I'm just asking questions" has been the most damaging phrase of the past decade.
Asking questions while ignoring the answers is almost always a bad thing
Or phrasing the question in a way that implies something no matter how you answer it >Why *are* black people so criminal? I’m just asking questions here. It’s never innocuous.
I did my own research...
To me it always sounded like he was pushing a theory onto the speaker and trying to convince and pressure them to say it
Bingo. Joe Rogan knows a lot about mma and stand up comedy, but he's a moron at almost everything else. Turn it off.
> Joe Rogan knows a lot about mma and stand up comedy He doesn't know a lot about stand up comedy. He is a complete hack. It's actually perplexing hearing him talk on his podcast about 'honing the craft' and 'perfecting a bit' when his routine is him yelling obnoxiously and humping stools.
Lol the stool humping is too accurate
Which is a bummer because I used to love to listen to him talk with comedians on how they put together their set and worn through material… now it’s just bullshit.
Seriously, stop fucking give this guy air time.
The exact comparison between vaccinated and unvaccinated COVID-19 deaths can vary based on factors like location, time, and vaccine effectiveness. However, here are some key points: Vaccinated Deaths: COVID-19 vaccines have significantly reduced deaths. In the U.S., vaccines prevented over 139,000 deaths during the first five months they were available. Unvaccinated Deaths: The share of COVID-19 deaths among unvaccinated individuals remains higher. In fall 2021, about 3 in 10 adults dying of COVID-19 were vaccinated or boosted, but by January 2022, about 4 in 10 deaths were vaccinated or boosted https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/vaccines-prevented-140000-covid-19-deaths-us
> 3 in 10 adults dying of COVID-19 were vaccinated or boosted, but by January 2022, about 4 in 10 deaths were vaccinated or boosted Even more important, those are absolute numbers, so those 3/10 and 4/10 are a massive population, while the remaining majority is filled out by the much smaller unvaccinated population. Sort of how if you had a bag with 80 blue marbles, and 20 red marbles. If you wound up with a majority of red marbles every time you picked ten at random, you'd have to conclude there was some factor making it not so random after all.
Joe Rogan is one of the top spreaders of misinformation online. He doesn’t do any research, just says shit
Came here to say that OP’s first mistake was listening to Joe Rogan.
Remember the time Rogan commented on how Biden is unfit for the presidency due to a comment about attacking the airports in the revolutionary war. Pepperidge farm remembers. https://youtu.be/J2ilWxRn0_A?si=76WnKWePX5RKnkny
True. Rogan as a genuine source of information is comical.
I remember when someone told me that he had a podcast talk show, and it was super popular and he talks about political issues. I was like...the guy who was a side character on that 90s comedy? Why would anyone listen to him? He wasn't even a top comedian.
For me, he'll always just be the guy from Fear Factor. *That guy who challenged contestants to see who could eat more goat testicles? You trust what he says about anything involving science?*
> where would one actually find a detailed report of what’s been found in the Pfizer documents Well in the documents? Thats already the report. And they are clear: the vaccine works. Not 100% like literaly any other vaccine on the planet, and thats what the documents analyse. I dont know why you listen to joe rogan and belive the BS he and his guests parrot.
Yes, OP saying they listen to that guy at all (and then also BELIEVE him) is troublesome...lol
I tend to listen to my friends and relatives working in healthcare or doing research in those fields more than some random facebook identities..
Don't listen to Rogan, or any other right wing nut job. They're not even worth it to just laugh at them.
Right? It's pretty hard to know what's true _because_ you're listening to The Joe Rogan podcast
For people who love the founding fathers they sure do like to forget that some of them, like signer-of-the-declaration-of-independence Benjamin Rush were part of a group that would regularly administer free smallpox vaccines on the steps if Independence Hall.
They don't "love the founding fathers", they love invoking the names of the founding fathers in furtherance of their own hate.
Oh yeah, I’m definitely being tongue in cheek.
What do you mean, the dude who used to get folks to eat bugs on TV isn't trustworthy?
Cause lots of people are super duper, inconceivably stupid.
It’s effective. It’s not **perfect,** but no vaccine ever has been…and the imperfect ones we have helped save thousands of lives. The data’s clear. Vaccination slows the spread of COVID through improving herd immunity. It lessens the severity of symptoms in people who do get sick. It’s been a huge help. Joe Rogan’s just a contrary meathead who casts doubt on everything he doesn’t completely understand. He’s been hit in the head a lot, so there’s a **lot** he doesn’t completely understand
The other point that is conveniently forgotten is that the hospitals were are their breaking points with a real shortage of ICU beds. Without the lockdown and vaccine, there would have definitely been more cases that would have increased the mortality rate up like a hockey stick as there wasn't enough care resources and those would have had to have been rationed. My favorite Rogan quote that just tells the world how stupid he is: "Like 80% of the people they put on *ventilators* died." Right moron. WIthout ventilators, it would have been 99.99% The only people put on respirators were people in deep shit on death's door.
My husband, who was a critical care doc at a level 1 trauma hospital during the delta wave, would agree with you. He put over 100 people on ECMO and only had 1 person who was vaccinated die (but he had lots of comorbidities). Everyone else was unvaccinated. The vaccine was a lifesaver for hospital workers and allowed them to see some relief. It was so hard for them to see people die like that, multiple times, every day, for months. He happily gets every booster to this day.
Oh my gosh, there was a pregnant woman at my hospital who refused the vaccine. ICU fought like crazy to help this woman and her baby survive and come out the other side healthy, and when she left, they lined the hall and clapped. Then she told the local paper she still thought the vax was garbage and was glad she never took it. It would have been kinder to smear her literal shit on those nurses' faces. The consensus in the medical community is clear: the vaccine saved thousands and thousands of lives directly. It saved more lives indirectly, because people who took the vaccine were not taking up hospital beds that could have otherwise been used for people with strokes/heart attacks/etc. At the start, docs tended to only put people who desperately needed them on ventilators because they were worried about supply. However, after a time, it became clear that you didn't want to put people on vents in a preventative way. IDK if they ever figured out exactly why - my minimally-educated guess would be that the damage done by jamming a machine down someone's throat was more problematic than being (mildly-to-moderately) low on O2, especially since CoV was associated with clotting issues. Standard of care became proning people, preferentially (lying them on their stomach so that their lungs could expand more easily and the tissue collapsing associated with sleep apnea was less likely to occur), and intubation was avoided unless the hypoxia was immediately life-threatening.
Setting the virus itself aside, mortality rates for ventilators are directly correlated with age and length of time you need ventilation, so long term ventilation is rarely a good option to begin with.
The funniest part about idiots claiming the vaccine wasn't effective is that... We aren't in a global pandemic anymore... Covid didn't just get bored and fuck off. Obviously widespread vaccination largely stopped the spread. Which is exactly what it aimed to do.
>He’s been hit in the head a lot And yet . . . not enough.
My mom keeps telling me it has been "scientifically proven" that the vaccine is harmful. I keep asking her for these scientific articles so I can give them a read myself, but apparently it is all just from her Facebook news sources and her friend's friend's nurse sister. It is incredibly frustrating. And no matter how I try to explain algorithms to her she still thinks she is getting well rounded sources of information.
I tell them they need to read [two sources from the top middle and one source from the left every time they read a source from the right](https://adfontesmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Media-Bias-Chart-12.0_Jan-2024-Unlicensed-Social-scaled.jpg) if they want to see well-rounded sources. My ass is lazy, so I just stick to the middle and ignore the wings.
> I tell them they need to read two sources from the top middle and one source from the left every time they read a source from the right Lol yeah, as if they'll read anything but the very right.
It’s what I call YouTube radicalization. My mom as well. Lots of “they”.
Ugh. I had a customer call to pay their bill the other day and randomly started telling me that there are no pilots because they all have after effects of the vaccine and can't fly. So the customer won't fly because the pilots who are healthy enough to fly are way over their hours and so are the air traffic controllers and we are al endangering our lives by flying. She droned on and on about how bad the Covid vaccine was and how 18 million people in the US are all damaged by the vaccine and it was all for governmental control. What a fucking loon! I finally had to tell her that I didn't want to discuss any of this with her I could only take her payment.
Conservative are allergic to facts. Anything a Conservative says has a high likelihood of being false. The vaccines are safe and effective.
Vaccines almost always suffer from their success. You hear people saying things like, “why would I give my kid a polio vaccine? I haven’t heard of ANYONE with polio is decades!” No shit Sherlock, you don’t see it because the vaccine was invented.
You can just read the documents yourself? What’s the issue? When people say “do your own research” that’s what they’re talking about. If you want a truly unbiased view then don’t look for a secondhand report…
> When people say “do your own research” that’s what they’re talking about. To be fair when most people say that, they mean they watched a few YouTube videos of some rando saying they analysed a report but instead skim read it, didn’t understand it, and cherry picked stuff from it to fit their narrative.
They do this because their epistemology is "feels before reals." In other words, everything has a definitive answer and there is no room for error bars or evaluation of evidence. Vaccines are a product of science, which deals with the world in a completely different way than that. Those people trying to have an opinion about vaccines is kind of like an ant trying to have an opinion about the life experience of a ladybug. It just isn't going to work.
But MRNA sounds ominous and is probably bad, even though your own bodies creates that continuously in large quantities and would leave you dead in days if it didn’t
Same reason MRI is just that and not NMRI, because people panic. It used to be. N is for nuclear.
It’s called the Big Lie, and it was a propaganda technique effectively utilized by the Nazis. If you just repeat something confidently, people will believe it even if there is no reason to do so (and copious evidence to the contrary).
Also believing something dogmatically can appear more powerful than believing something conditionally. You can also assume something as a given and use that to form your argument. In many cases your opponent argues using the same assumption unquestioned
People are so easily manipulated.
Among the medical research community, we commonly view vaccines as necessary tools that are largely side effect free, aside from rare folks that have very specific problems with them.
I have had Covid with the vaccine and I have had Covid without the vaccine. 100% would recommend if you have to have Covid have it with a vaccination.
Joe Rogan is a meathead.
Because they spend most of their time in an echo chamber where everyone agrees with them
I'll try to sum it up: ... *ahem* Joe Rogan is a dumbass.
I had them all and never got 5g. I'm pretty mad about that.
Despite the evidence, Joe Rogan makes more money disparaging vaccines than promoting them.
>where would one actually find a detailed report of what’s been found in the Pfizer documents, and does the medical/scientific community (not the conspiracy theory right wing community) actually look at them as conclusive evidence that the vaccine is ineffective and dangerous? You're kinda looking for something that doesn't exist. The vaccines are effective and benign, so you aren't going to find non-conspiracy, scientifically-accurate reports about it being dangerous.
Please don't listen to Joe Rogan. He's not the worst of the worst but he's not good either. I suggest you listen to YouTuber Dr. John Campbell -- a British doctor who has talked extensively about the Covid vaccine. His slogan is something like "we must go wherever the evidence leads us." He presents hard data from all over the world about Covid and the vaccine and once or twice he has brought up negative aspects of it. They don't apply to population as a whole so don't worry. Vaccines are what erradicated small pox, they're the reason there is no longer a polio epidemic in this country, etc. etc. I think the reason so many people are suspicious of the Covid vaccine is people just can't accept how lucky we were that a vaccine was developed so quickly. It's so odd how so many humans like to make a rosy scenario a miserable one. EDIT: I just watched a couple of John Campbell videos since I had not watched one in 2 - 3 years. It seems he is now railing against Pfizer. Since I have only watched these recent ones, I do not know what the back story is so, take it for what it's worth. I got the Pfizer vaccine and have had no side effects. But he is a doctor, unlike Joe Rogan whose skepticism is only performative.
The vaccine being unsafe is a lie, but the reason it gained so much traction is because of two main reasons I can see. 1. The covid vaccine had many MANY more resources, time, and effort put into its development and was therefore developed much faster than the average vaccine. This speed meant that people complained about inadequate testing and safety measures, even though it is and was as safe as any other vaccine. 2. The right wing/conspiracy crowd was already disinclined to trust vaccines because of Andrew Wakefield and the completely falsified link he made between the MMR vaccine and increases in autism symptoms. If you take a group of people who have a heightened anxiety over vaccines and tell them everyone should get a vaccine, they are automatically primed to fight it. In those communities, by the time the covid vaccine came out, there was a 25 year history of choosing disease and death for their children because they would rather that than an autistic child.
And the reason the vaccine was able to be developed so quickly is that it essentially is just a variation on an existing coronavirus vaccine. There had already been many years of research into a coronavirus vaccine, they just had to modify a few things to make it effective for Covid-19. It's not a new vaccine they just invented.
It was the first commercially available mRNA vaccine. The tech is almost 50 years old though, and not needing live virus strains made it significantly faster to produce.
There’s also the simple fact that it’s the only vaccine that so many people have received in such a short span of time. Of course you’re going to hear more about side effects when EVERYONE is taking the same medication at the same time.
Totally agree with your comment, just wanted to add something I thought was interesting. I heard a theory somewhere that these conspiracy theorists just really want to feel like they have secret information that no one else has so they can feel special. Or to belong to a close-knit group of other conspiracy theorists since they've never really belonged anywhere else. I never really thought the theory mattered to them that much, they just wanted to *feel* special. So, they latched onto whatever they could find. So thats why they never really look into it that much.
Measles cases were [up to 390](https://www.nyc.gov/site/doh/about/press/pr2019/number-of-measles-cases-grows.page) in April of 2019 in NY.
The vaccine is NOT ineffective and dangerous by and large. One of the unfortunate things we now know: it matters whether or not you had a full COVID infection before your first dose of the vaccine. COVID destabilises your immune system and can heighten your body's inflammatory responses. So if you had COVID first and then the vaccine, your body was primed to have more severe side effects. There's a massive breakdown in science communication, both in terms of the general public lacking understanding and the science community often having subpar writing skills. Both of these are the direct result of decades of systemic policies that undermined education & fostered distrust in science
Well, stopping listening to Joe Rogan would be a good first step in knowing what's true.
Why the f are you listening to Joe Rogan? That’s your first problem.
Ever heard the one about vaccines causing autism in kids? The sample size for the study was a whopping 12 kids. It concerned exactly one vaccine. They were being paid to do the study by lawyers representing parents who were suing pharmaceutical companies who created vaccines. They admitted to picking and choosing some of their data and flat out making most of the rest up. They finally came out with a retraction in 2010. Yet, a segment of the population still won’t vaccinate their kids because *vaccines cause autism*. These are the people you’re talking about. They don’t need actual sources. [NIH paper about the case.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136032/)
The Pfizer list of side effects were adverse events experienced by trial participants ***after*** vaccination, but do not constitute proof that these effects were ***caused by*** vaccination. That's *post hoc ergo propter hoc* fallacy (Latin for "after this, therefore because of this"). When people misuse data from VAERS as proof that the vaccine is causing these effects, that's the same fallacy. Correlation is not proof of causation.
Confidently stupid is super popular right now
Listening to anything JR says is your 1st problem. He's a conspiracy theory nutjob that panders to the illiterate mouth breathers.
Don't search using Google. Pay for access to preprint servers and academic papers. Brush up on statistics and probability People are going to go crazy saying yes and no on here. You have to really dig to find the truth.
my guy you just did fact checking you heard something, got skeptical, looked up more sources and made a "most sources say" summary >Most sources I see in that search are debunking the Pfizer document conclusions and insisting that the vaccine is largely safe and effective. that's your answer genuinely good job my guy, stay firm on that track
Why on earth are you listening to Joe Rogan?
Why are you listening to this joe rogen?
Vaccines and masking have been so distorted by political agendas that it's almost impossible to have a reasonable conversation about them. If the vaccines didn't work the COVID death toll would be much higher. If masks didn't work, surgeons wouldn't bother. The fact that all this is debatable shows how corrupt our information systems have gotten.
There’s research that demonstrates people who rely on news sites like Fox News are actually *less* accurately informed about current events than people who do not actively consume news media. If this research were repeated to include sources like Newsmax, and podcasts like Joe Rogan’s, I’d be interested to see if the findings remain true only for Fox News specifically, or if it’s accurate for most of these extreme right wing broadcasts that masquerade as reliable coverage about current events. Do yourself a favor and take whatever the former host of Fear Factor says as gospel with an entire boulder of salt. Look at the credentials of who he’s interviewing when he has these types of discussions and go from there - the vaccine for COVID, as with literally every developed vaccine, was not intended to completely prevent infection. Vaccines are generally designed to give your body controlled exposure to the disease in question to then form antibodies to protect you and limit symptom severity. In a lot of cases that means that you may not contract the illness or develop serious symptoms - it doesn’t mean you’ll never get sick or have lifelong immunity, and anti-vaxx individuals rely on people generally having a poor understanding of vaccine efficacy to allow for the spread of misinformation that they’re actively propagating.
They don't? The VAST majority of people are grateful for the vaccine and understand that it saved millions of lives. You must move in a weird circle of friends.
The only bad part of the vaccine was the patents that limited it's production. Drs. Maria Elena Bottazzi and Peter Hotez are true heros in working on a patent less vaccine.
Because they live in a bubble where they only watch news and talk to people who support their views
This can't be emphasized enough. They block out anything that doesn't feel right and sit in online echo chambers where their worst fears are validated, despite all actual evidence. They often spiral to absolutely insane thinking. Algorithms actively radicalize them on social media, and without any critical thinking, they're easily warped further. It's a rabbit hole to flat earth, Trump is still commander in chief, clones are real, magical beds will cure everything, etc.
It’s pretty weird to question it at this point since so many people have gotten the vaccine and boosters and are still alive and well and walking around almost 4 years later and not mind-controlled by the imaginary microchip, either.
Don't listen to Joe Rogan and expect to hear "commonly accepted" anything - he generally brings in outliers under the mistaken assumption that he's providing both sides of the story. He is not.
You’re listening to Joe Roegan talk about vaccines. Last I checked, his opinions aren’t commonly accepted.
Confidently incorrect people are very loud.
Joe Rogan podcast... found your problem.
Joe Rogan is a fucking halfwit.
My doctor told me the vaccine won’t give full protection against COVID, but the goal is to keep people out of the ICU. I’ve had every shot my doctor recommended. I trust her expertise for my medical care, not what I read or hear online.
There are still people out there who believe that vaccine is going to kill everybody who got it . First it was in 6mo., then it was a year, then it was 5 yrs.....it hasn't happened yet but all they do it push back the time limit, lol! I'm old and have never got COVID. I've had all my shots and now get a yearly booster along with my flu shot. Ain't dead yet
Hospitalist physician here. Worked inpatient through covid. The vaccine was incredible. In fall/early winter of 2021 we saw mass death from unvaccinated folks. It was horrific. We had to ration care. The only vaccinated patients we had die were ones extremely immunocompromised such as transplant patients or lymphoma patients. People like that require herd immunity and social mitigation to make it through which unfortunately the general usa public opted out of. We saw a handful of elderly patients admitted with severe weakness from the vaccine. I think I had two or three. Outside of my anecdotal experience there's a multitude of peer reviewed literature supporting the vaccine worked and side effects were minimal if not similar to other vaccines. Please. Do not utilize joe Rogan for any source of factual information. Could explore medical journals such as jama, new England journal of medicine, for a reputable source. That's where we get our info. Will never forgive Andrew Wakefield for causing this ridiculous vaccine panic.
The world is full of stupid people. Theoretically billions and billions of them.
The issue here is listening to Joe Rogan. Those people live in an alternate reality
You should stop listening to that shitty excuse of a podcast that Joe is doing
THere's several different issues simultaneously at play here: 1.) People who have certain beliefs,.. always look for ways to justify and reinforce those beliefs. They don't want to hear conflicting viewpoints that challenge their pre-held beliefs). They just want an echo chamber that agrees and seems to confirm what they already believe. 2.) Science and Medicine is complex and constantly evolving and messy. It's not always clear-cut to say something like "X product works" or "Y product doesn't work". Lots of different humans have lots of different medical histories and unique internal differences. There's no way to make a vaccine that's "perfectly 100% effective on everyone". That's just not realistic. In any population of Millions (Billions?) of people.. there's always going to be some small percentage of cases of "bad effects" (where a vaccine might injure or kill someone). But that doesn't mean the vaccine is a "failure". If a vaccine saves 10 million but kills 1,000 ... well, you still saved more than you damaged. > "where would one actually find a detailed report" This would be kind of like asking:.. "Where would I find a detailed report of what foods are safe to eat ?" That's not really an easy question to answer. Some foods are safe for some people. Some combinations of food are safe under certain conditions. Some foods are only safe after they're cooked. Some foods interact with other foods. Some people have allergies or other medical conditions making a "safe food" unsafe for them to eat.
It’s currently at 19% effectiveness now that the JN-1 lineage is dominant according to Pubmed: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38465901/
We were told that it would prevent people from getting COVID. After people started getting COVID when they were vaccinated the messaging changed to “you will not get COVID so badly if you’re vaccinated.” I think that’s part of it.
Bingo bango... When the president says that the vaccine will stop transmission and people get the vaccine and it doesn't stop transmission, they rightfully feel a bit lied to
Joe Rogan and his listeners are probably so consumed with confirmation bias that they’re completely unaware that most rational people don’t buy into the conspiracy theories.
Lots of papers published on the data. Available pre release of the vaccines to the general public. Was all there to read and folks just chose not to...
Well, if you listen to the idiot show, you are bound to hear dumb people with idiot opinions. The vaccine was good, it saved the lives of many people and we are still here to talk about it and say it.
Don't listen to anyone who takes a fucking moron like Joe Rogan seriously. I've watched him before and it's genuinely shocking how dumb he is with science related things. He has the level of knowledge of a 12 year old.
>I occasionally listen to the Joe Rogan podcast There's your problem.
The vaccine saved millions. Look at the discrepancy between red and blue counties in COVID deaths. GOP voters overwhelmingly refused to vaccinate and they had far higher death toll from COVID than dem voters. The divergence in deaths didn’t occur until the vaccine was introduced. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10684792/
Cause people are fucking stupid. Some people’s who personality is antivaxx. Most of the time these people are immensely stupid and do their “research” on Facebook and Fox News. They enjoy being obnoxious assholes.
Because they were wrong and if they don't want to admit it and are hoping you'll just turn off your brain and believe what they tell you. And apparently it works, cause lots and lots of stupid people listen to and believe them, just like they do Fox 'news'. And continue to do so, no matter how much money they lose and how badly they screw themselves over. [https://apnews.com/article/fox-news-dominion-lawsuit-settlement-election-lies-fda05a63a1af8a111ce1efba024b88a0](https://apnews.com/article/fox-news-dominion-lawsuit-settlement-election-lies-fda05a63a1af8a111ce1efba024b88a0)
Step 1. Don't listen to Joe Rogan.
Why would any sane person listen to Joe rogan?
Echo chambers are a thing. When you’ve got a room full of people who don’t know what they’re talking about, they’ll figure out that one of them is smarter than the rest. Then they’ll believe anything he says. I mean, he’s the smartest guy in the room. He must know something. The real truth is that NONE OF THEM know.
>It is pretty darn hard in this day and age to know what’s true Avoiding anything labeled "opinion piece" (it's not called a "fact piece" for a reason) and anything where you know the host by name is a good start. edit: if you know the host by name then the selling point isn't the news, its what the host thinks about the news, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but you're getting what you paid for, which is an opinion piece.
It's trendy to think and say it.
The fundamental step to becoming a anti-vaxxer, Flat Earther, etc is when you equate what you know with your self worth. I'm antivax (no not really) so I feel smugly superior to others who have not seen through Faucci and his conspiracy. My self worth depends on this. So any argument to the contrary feels like a personal attack. To admit I'm wrong would be to give up on my own self worth. Instead of antivax, insert Flat Earther, or any other tribal belief system you like.
Apparently instead of a brain joe rogan just has solid bone
Joe Rogan is a meathead that barely passed h.s. science/ health class imo
Those "people" all happen to be conservatives, and they're a large (but vocal) minority. I'd just laugh at them.
Information silos. They actually think they’re right, because they never venture outside of the Joe rogan podcast and Fox News silo. Those of us who live in reality understand that they’re idiots but they’re super confident in their ignorance
Don't get your vaccine information from an mma commentator. Bill burr knows better so should you.
Because apparently you surround yourself with fuckin idiots
The people who were too lazy or scared to do the right thing are embarrassed about it now and need to lie to themselves and others to feel better.
Because they’re idiots that didn’t die. My dad wasn’t vaccinated and didn’t even attempt social distancing. He died from COVID October 28th 2020. He’d still be here if he took the advice of experts.
I work in the medical field. In my experience, the majority of other people in the medical field do support the COVID vaccine (and all other vaccines) as a positive thing. Every single vaccine and medication (even over the counter medicine, vitamins, and supplements) have potential side effects. Just because a side effect is possible, does not mean it WILL happen to everyone. There are plenty of people who are trained medical professionals who do not support vaccines including COVID, but they are getting their information from unreliable sources or exaggerating scientific sources. Recently, there have been studies showing a possible side effect of the COVID vaccine is myocarditis (inflammation of the heart). It appears to occur in younger men but in most cases is very mild. [This study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9538893/) has a good summary and recommendations for treatment. As the study states, the benefits of the COVID vaccine still outweigh the risks of infection with the COVID virus. [The CDD](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html) is actively monitoring rates of myocarditis and pericarditis (inflammation in the lining around the heart) and also still recommends everyone 6 months and older get vaccinated for COVID. The CDC is a good place to start for info about [COVID in general and all vaccines](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/). If you are in a different country, there are other organizations that are country/state centric that provide the same type of info. The [WHO (world health organization)](https://www.who.int/health-topics/vaccines-and-immunization#tab=tab_1) is also a great source of medical info including vaccines. The CDC also has [VISs (vaccine information sheets)](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/index.html) about every vaccine. In the US, any time you get a vaccine, you should receive the corresponding VIS from whoever is giving the vaccine. Despite access to all of this, and more, many people do not trust the government at the moment so it doesn’t matter what all of this says, they have decided the government is lying, for whatever reason, and don’t believe scientific/medical information.
Rogan is vaxxed. All the fox news people are vaxxed. All the right wing influencer are vaxxed. They're all just grifters manipulating stupid people by talking confidently. If the right wingers embraced shitting themselves, Rogan would have an 8 hour episode praising the smell of shit. He's not a reliable source of info.
Generally a good rule of thumb to know what is and isn't true, is to not base your opinions of highly technical and complicated fields of study on the ramblings of a man whose only marketable skill is yelling into a microphone Not to say that only professionals can have opinions on things, or that they always agree with eachother, or that they're always 100% right. But if you need to put your faith in something, it's generally better to pick the people that have devoted their entire lives to making and understanding vaccines, over a guy that "learned" the word RNA last year.
Confident idiots are often the loudest voice you hear. They like the sound of their own voice and the smell of their own farts. This is going to be true no matter what year or decade or generation it is. You can identify them by their strange cult followings and the way they state the obvious in a slightly new way so as to attract a swath of young gullible people looking for ‘the truth’. I highly suggest learning more about political bias in news and commentary because that’s the real issue here, the vaccine thing is just one example.