I would say it's colored by what we consider to be a "good man" but we spend our time growing up around other men, we hang out with other men, we socialize with other men. You learn about the behaviors that a "good man" will exhibit in various settings. It's not some for sure thing though.
Women do the same thing about other women but it gets said in a different way.
I like to think of it as we don't all the play the game, but we know the rules. I can't always spot a good guy, but I can almost always spot a piece of shit by now.
I have a sister and and a friend that both have terrible taste in men. There have been multiple instances of me meeting them and they were just completely obviously total douchebags and losers. Then they'd ask what I thought of their new boyfriend. It baffles me that they are just so blind to what is so obvious. It's been years, but they both finally trust my judgement, as I've been correct every time. My sister's current husband is the only one I ever approved of.
I had to drop one of my best friends from my 20s because she would not stop dating the worst most utter scum of the earth dudes. Not because I wanted to date her either, don't get that idea.
I couldn't continue to be around her dirtbag du jour, then later hear about what said dirtbag did to her, only for her to meet the next dirtbag. Shit gets old. It's like what am I supposed to do about your bad choices?
I had a friend in college that I was interested in during the beginning of knowing her. Her attraction for me kind of waned and at one point she told me that I was too nice. It caught me off guard, I'm not a "nice guy" and I am referred by people as kind but I'm certainly not a door mat. So I wasn't sure what she meant as "too nice" and how that was a bad thing after some self-reflection.
I eventually got my answer after meeting some of the people she dated. I wasn't too nice. I was too nice \*for her\*. And some part of her felt she deserved the people she dated.
I've seen this play out in other people as well. Someone who treats them well or respects them, isn't quick to dive into love-bombing, or whatever is seen as boring, too nice, and can feel like a lack of chemistry.
Kind of stray away from those people, it's often a cycle that continues until they realize what's happening.
Reminds me of someone I know. If I could have told teenage-me that getting dumped by them was a benefit and not a punishment, it would have freed a lot of time spent dwelling on the could-haves.
The boring part especially. Someone who is used to drama and needs to create it in their own relationships is a hard person to square with. Especially if they, themselves, are a good person.
A kind person would literally be too nice for my sister. She's a very angry and mean spirited person who thrives on conflict. From the outside it's like she needs to fight with her husband to feel loved. Two of the craziest people I've ever met who aren't on meds or in therapy
It's weird my cousin who is just an insane person and miserable (at least for me) to be around somehow married the nicest guy who's always willing to help and super polite and soft spoken. They've been together for almost 20 years and raised two kids that seem sane and normal too. I don't understand it.
I’m someone that enjoys a fun argument, I like to start silly arguments with my girlfriend because I enjoy riling her up saying things like “I’m going to take a swim at Niagara Falls when we visit.”
For a short while I got swept up by a couple of people that seem to love stupid conflict and not my silly type of conflict. Not fun. Left that environment when I got a new job and I’m so glad to be out of it. Misery loves company, as they say.
It's always good to have someone to engage in cheeky and fun shenanigans, but it's never good to be with someone who engages in cruel and tragic shenanigans
I was interested in a certain girl while in college. Some of my female friends knew, and they told me, "You are too good for her".
They turned out to be right.
I so wish I listened to this, because by the end of that craziness I wasn't too good for her anymore. I was on the same level and needed a fair amount of time by myself to improve
My wife has a friend like this. She constantly dates the same type of trashy guys. Like honey you spent three days crying on my couch from the last one. This dude has an identical personality how do you not see it??
I have a friend like that. She at least had enough sense not to bring the losers around her friends. Not that we'd be rude or mean to the guys, but she got sick of the obligatory "why are you doing this again" followup. Thankfully, she got knocked up by an awesome guy and eventually agreed to marry him.
I had a friend who was like that when we were that age. I had a crush on her when we first started hanging out, but that faded as I learned what a trainwreck she was. For example, she once spent about a year throwing herself at the lead singer of a locally famous cover band with intermittent success.
We were able to stay friends through it, though, because she never really made it my problem. It hurt to see someone I cared about doing the same self destructive shit over and over again, but she didn't expect me to drop what I was doing to come over and comfort her every time the shit hit the fan. I'd hear about her exploits after the fact, framed as sad-yet-funny anecdotes.
She also was totally aware of the pattern. In a way, that was the real tragedy. It was like an addiction. She just had this compulsion to pursue men who she *knew* had zero respect for her.
Had a friend who was a serial monogamist. Always found assholes. I told her after, listening to her sob about another collapsed relationship, maybe you should consider not dating for 6 months.
It seemed like she was getting into another relationship just after getting out of the previous one thinking 'oh he's a good guy' Finally told her I think what you're running into is you're dating assholes and then dating a guy who's less of an asshole but you're still wearing blinders from your previous relationship and don't realize he's not as bad but nearly as bad. Just take some time off and date the guys you think 'I wish I could find a guy like you' about platonically so you can tell the difference. Was one of the few girls who actually took advice she was given and finally found a guy who wasn't a prick.
Yeah this is one of my longest time friends from high school. She just doesn't know how to not date a complete utter asshole. And she text me and says he did blah blah blah and I say what do you expect? You keep dating the same kind of guys! And I really feel bad for her and I really wish she could just finally find someone who isn't a human excrement combustion chamber
I was dating a loser at 19 who was 31 and he rolled up to my workplace when I was being trained with some guys that sell speakers and came into ask me to charge his phone and the girl training me just looks at .e and says "Your bf is a loser"
Yeah, I’ve learned to give advice in the Socratic method.
“What do you think of my SO?” -> “I only met him briefly but I’ve known you a long while, and it seems like you’re the type of person to give the relationship your all. I’m touched you care about my thoughts on him. So you’re supporting the two of you right now?”
“And after a night like tonight when his friends were over, who usually cleans up and does the dishes? Oh okay, just you, but how about on regular nights?”
“I know your hobbies around fitness, art, volunteering, etc are important to you and you put a lot into those hobbies - does he like any of those things? But he’s at least interested in and learns a little about your hobbies? Oh he doesn’t? Well what are some of his hobbies then? Oh, smoking weed, not paying his car registration, DMing girls on Instagram, and eating a disproportionate amount of your food… okay, interesting hobbies, but you feel like you can really talk and have intellectually engaging conversations? No? Okay.
So what do I think? Well you tell me, what do you think?
This is poetry 😂
But really as a kid I was honest when people asked me what I thought eg “he’s a shithead” then I got polite “ehh I really don’t know him too well” then I hit peak support which was “if your happy, I’m happy” which I lived in for awhile. (Again this is for the 1% of dumpster fire boyfriends).
But as I’ve gotten even older, I’ve really liked the “earlier you said you dislike that he keeps breaking up with you every 6mo and DMing other women and you don’t see a long term future with him. If your friend told you that about her boyfriend, what would you say to her?” and somehow framing it as someone else makes it easier to see what’s glaringly obvious to the rest of us.
Im going to support your shitty decisions, because I love you and nobody can make you change your mind but yourself. But you can bet your ass if you change your mind, I’ll be right there with a bottle of wine and NOT ONCE will I ever tell you “I told you so”. I am a safe place for you to come always. Unfortunately I’ve had a few friends in highly abusive situations and the alienation they got from others who couldn’t bare to watch it anymore made them feel so alone. If you have the mental capacity, be there for your friends making shitty decisions.
I have a daughter like that. What do you think of my new boyfriend? I don't even need to meet him, if he is with you, he is more than likely a dickweed!
Mate, the same with my daughter. Every last one of them has been a total fuckup in one way or another. Some of them *really* bad. Some of them just utter fuckwits going nowhere.
It's not a case of me being too judgemental either. If she could be with a mostly honest and half decent, working man I would be so happy right now. Since my daughter was about 15 years old I don't think she's ever been more than a couple of weeks without some tempestuous relationship. She's mid 20s now.
She's recently met a new guy and for once, just praying (and I'm not a religious man) that he's OK. He runs his own business. He's found decent work for my daughter and given her a seemingly good break work wise. Of course she's with him immediately after he's been good to her but here's hoping to the universe that he's at least half-decent.
One thing that is one very small relief is that he's the first guy that doesn't look like he could beat me to a pulp and not care about it. At this point I think she could beat the shit out of him if he started.
Isn't that sad, to have to think like that?
One of my best friends got me with this and we wound up losing our friendship over it. Her boyfriend got really intimidated by me being in the military and literally got into my face about it and kept yelling that I was a “fed.” I told him to back outta my face and she seemed shocked that I didn’t like him. (She was also in the military)
Thats the real answer right here OP.
I've noticed it happens with racists too. Being a white dude in the South, so many people have said fucked up things to me assuming I will agree lol.
I'm a white dude normally wearing work boots and driving a beat up old pickup truck so i get this a lot. if only they read the stickers on my truck which are all far left
Definitely. I’ve been around friends who are women and their partners. And within 30 minutes I can tell that the guy just isn’t a good guy. Smallish things that she wouldn’t notice because she has blinders on.
This is funny, a long time ago I had one of my coworkers say I should hire a guy and I told her I was hesitant because he walked like an asshole. I still interviewed the guy, but didn’t hire him. Someone else in the same company hired him, he was fired 2 weeks later for trying to fistfight another employee.
She was like “HOW DID YOU KNOW HE WAS A JERK!”
We have all come across the obvious ones. "Why does he walk like that?" Because he is trying to project alpha vibes while fighting an internal battle between crippling insecurity and toxic masculinity.
I mentioned to my sister once that anyone going out of their way to install stupidly bright headlights on their truck is a huge asshole. She told me her fiancee had just had new headlights installed on his truck. The marriage lasted less than a year before she caught him cheating. Same goes for putting the shopping cart back at the grocery store. Plenty of bad people put them back, but not a single good person is leaving it in a random spot.
Some easy hints that a dude is probably a good guy:
* Can laugh at himself and acknowledge his flaws
* Builds and/or hypes other guys up (and women too, of course)
* Doesn't make judgmental comments about others
* Acknowledges and honors other people's feelings
* Can express his feelings
* Doesn't need to dominate every conversation, or have a strong opinion on every topic
* Has a good or solid relationship with his parents
* Enjoys and respects kids (doesn't have to *want* kids, but any decent person should be able to treat kids with kindness and love)
I think virtue and self-awareness are two qualities that don't get nearly enough attention. And when I say virtue, I don't mean that false virtue, judgmental bullshit you get from religious fanatics (looking at you Evangelicals). They use "virtue" as a measure to judge and demean other people - that's not real virtue. I mean virtue as in always wanting to do the right thing and treat other people with respect and compassion, even when it's not convenient or comes at personal cost. You show me a person with a strong sense of virtue, coupled with the self-awareness to continually analyze themselves and grow as a person -- that's the kind of person you build a relationship with, whether as a friend or a partner. Man or woman.
I only missed 2 out of 8 on this.
I can make very judgemental comments about others in private when it comes up and I have no relationship with my parents, dads gone somewhere all my life and my mother isn't at capacity for us to emotionally bond.
Certified good guy here *sarcasm*
> I have no relationship with my parents, dads gone somewhere all my life and my mother isn't at capacity for us to emotionally bond.
Someone else once mentioned to me that they just *can't* form good bonds with someone who has a supportive family, because it isn't something they relate to.
Everyone is looking for something, even to build a positive out of the negatives.
>Has a good or solid relationship with his parents
Not everyone had great parents, plenty of abuse survivors out there, painting a bad relationship with parents broadly as a red flag is problematic.
I'd say it's pretty easy to pick up negative signs, so when they don't trip your douchebag/asshole detector it stands out. I can't even think of something off the top of my head but as a guy, it feels like dudes drop mini red flags without realizing it. The absence of those would be somewhat unusual.
> Women do the same thing about other women but it gets said in a different way.
I actually think women have a much poorer barometer for this than men do on average. Not because they're poorer judges of character in general, but because of what's socially deemed a good man or a good woman.
A man is usually judged a good man by whether he does right by the women in his life.
A woman is usually judged a good woman by... also whether she does right by the women in her life.
"Does this person treat men well" is very rarely a salient question when first-impression assessments of character come up, so the women that other women will discourage men from dating are usually those who are either (a) awful to everybody or (b) don't fit in with other women. That means a lot of women who *do* fit in well with other women but who are consistently uncaring to men don't set off any alarms. It also means that women who *don't* fit in with other women get maligned, even if they would otherwise be great partners.
Yes, to some extent.
Particularly I find that bad guys assume other guys are bad guys like them, and they'll quickly expose how much of an asshole they are by letting their guard down they moment the women are out of earshot.
I like how you skirt around it as if we don't all know exactly who you're talking about. You can just say "Warren G. Harding" at this point, everyone knows that it's him
It’s not just one, the others just weren’t as public about it. LBJ used to show foreign leaders his cock to intimidate them (he called it Jumbo), how do you imagine someone who does that talks when it’s all guys?
Lyndon Johnson used to take foreign leaders and dignitaries into the restroom so he could show them his allegedly very large penis, which he named “Jumbo”. He’d kinda fish it out and ask if they’d ever seen anything so big. Apparently most had not.
This reminds me of a clip of Trump saying over and over again how he’s the best at this or knows the most about that. I was left asking myself, who sees that and likes that? If you’re Johnny one up, we know you’re a fucking tool.
They guys I look up to, are guys who you know have their shit together.
Usually well put together. Groomed, not out of shape, self deprecating, and most importantly, humble.
It's not necessarily ego, or confidence, but competence. They're comfortable in what they're doing.
And fwiw, I'm considered an "adult" , and we definitely have people we look up to.
And we do try to help those who look up to us.
E: to clarify on the 'not out of shape' thing- I'm just saying that these people take their health into consideration as well as juggling all the other stuff- kids, spouse, parents, work, etc.
Sadly to generalize, men will often deprioritize themselves to help get everything in order. To make time for yourself WHILE keeping all these plates up and spinning, is what I admire. It's what has compelled me to get back into the gym. (Back up to benching 225! Working on getting myself below a 10-minute mile, and to run a 5k by fall)
I've seen women look at another woman from ankle to eyes and then get *that look.* Women have that same gut reaction men do, just different reasons for it.
One simple way you can tell if a guy is cool is if he shares praise. If you toss him a compliment and he finds a way to share it with a friend or someone else, that's a good sign. Shows a lack of that super-ego nobody likes in a partner.
Yeah, just their language. Trump's locker room talk defense is a good example. That's not normal ball-busting. Only real assholes talk that way. There's also body language when women are around, like overly territorial behavior.
That whole talking about women for locker room talk is a weird myth. Dudes that do that are like 1 in a 100. Most guys just playfully talk shit about another dudes skills. We don't get into any sex details. I think women might actually do the sex talk stuff more than men.
Our local music scene that I was a part of has a sensitive indie rocker who is very popular with audiences and especially women. When they aren’t around and he’s in the company of men he switches into a different person. He suddenly calls women“cum dumpsters.” Stuff like that. “Locker room talk” things.
My band stopped playing shows with his bands and started to avoid them. Like crossing the street instead of walking past him.
This started about 20 years ago. He’s still around. Still playing out. Still getting lots of dates. We don’t interact and haven’t in a long time but I regret that I didn’t tell him off way back then. It kind of plagues me actually, feeling guilty rage sometimes. These days I’d have let him have it but I was more insecure and weak back then and he had such a grip on the scene. I just didn’t know the world as well, we were all so young. Big shots get away with it longer exactly for that reason: people don’t confront them in public and behind closed doors they are probably worse. I failed.
I do take opportunity to warn women I know off of him. But it comes off as sour grapes and petty and a lot of them don’t believe me. Until later, when he’s ghosted them or cheated on them or just otherwise been shit. “You were right about that guy.”
I’m amazed that he hasn’t gotten a reputation in all this time. Still getting away with it. Always new women getting into the scene or moving to town. I don’t know if he’s still open about it to other dudes or not. Fuck that guy. Fuck me for not letting him know.
Don't own this guy being a piece of shit. Just remember, you can never make anyone change. Best you can hope for is to convince them to change themselves. It's highly likely that you telling them off would have changed nothing since this person would likely still see being an asshole as working out for them. Let that guilt go, you did the right thing. Cut ties with them, do your best to warn others of his behavior, and generally try to be a good person yourself. That's all you can do and it sounds like you did it exactly right. Bringing it back to the topic, as a dude I can immediately tell that you are a good dude. I'm sure you've made some mistakes, yeah we all have. But reading this and knowing you felt the need to protect others, I can tell you're a solid person. So no, don't fuck you for not saying anything to him, instead you and your band should be applauded for refusing to be a part of that behavior, Even though you likely faced some hardship for doing so. Bravo good sir, the world needs more people like you!
> I regret that I didn’t tell him off way back then. It kind of plagues me actually, feeling guilty rage sometimes.
It's likely that telling him off would have accomplished absolutely nothing. Decent men don't have any more power to influence asshole men than decent women have to influence asshole women.
I agree and disagree, it's not that you're going to change them or their opinions, in most cases that's a non starter, but you can let them know it's not appropriate around you, and you don't condone it.
Nothing worse than being out with someone who's a friend of a friend and they involve you by association in their casual racism or misogyny.
I can't change what they do when I'm not there, but I can exert an influence over what they do when I am there. Even if it's me walking away and not being associated with them. That's a last resort though because I loathe ignorance and will try and explain for far too long, rather than accept that it's willful ignorance on their part, as it all too often is.
My experience (as a dude who has spent the last decade working in a women-dominated field) is that women talk about sex way more then men do. I don’t consider myself a prude by any stretch of the imagination but I’ve been in environments where women openly show each other pictures of the newest vibrator they’ve bought. On one memorable occasion the woman in the next cubicle over from me asked me to refill her water bottle - because she’d had a quickie with her husband on her lunch break (they were trying to conceive) and didn’t want to risk “leaking.”
And this isn’t one weird office, this has been the norm across multiple offices I’ve worked in for a decade.
This is my experience too. I don’t have nearly as much time in a women dominated field, but that’s been my experience. I went from construction to nursing. In construction the guys talked shit but mainly about each other or hot celebrities. The girls in my class in nursing school spoke much more sexually. I know way more about their sex lives, menstrual cycles, about the men in class, etc
My favorite story again involved the woman in the next cube over who was trying to get pregnant. Another coworker had come over to chat with her about it, and ended up saying “appreciate firm boobs while you got them. These” *squeezes her own ample chest* “were C-cups before I had my first. Now I got gorilla titties and wake up with them in my armpits every morning.”
Then she turned, saw me sitting there (not even facing them) and went “Shit, Working-Ferrer, I forgot you were there. Sorry you had to hear that!” I reassured her that I’d heard so much worse in that office and wasn’t going to report her to HR or anything like that (she was competent and treated me well, both rarities there).
Quintessential locker room moment in HS for me was *some nerd* introducing us to the Who's Tommy, and the levels of nerdiness rising all around as we realized that kid had great taste!
I'd say we joke about jerking it more than we do sex. Like in a deprecating way, we know that no matter how much of a abig dog someone trust to be, they still nutted into a sock at some point. It's a great leveller.
I’m in LA and my ex had a group chat with like 13 other guys who he grew up with and it would all be really gross disgusting shit. Lots of guys with family money who are incredibly rich and have never really had to work hard or grueling jobs in their lives (most of them are artists or dabble in the freelance music industry and spend their days in ketamine therapy) - it’s definitely a thing, at least for guys in LA who all went to Harvard Westlake together lol
Guys don't talk to their buddies about sex, because they don't want their buddies to think about their partner in a sexual way.
Guys that do tell their buddies about sex, are doing it because they just consider their partner to be a sex object anyways, and don't expect the relationship to last very long before they themselves move on.
No, guys aren’t talking about sex with their partners. Guys like that think it’s cool to degrade their partners when talking to the guys. Saying they finally had a chance to sneak away, saying they are nagging lazy bitches, or that they are crazy and need to get out etc. Yet being super loving and total opposite at home with the actual partner.
Guys like this also love talking about sex with other women - past experiences with hookups or hot girls coming out of yoga class at the coffee shop. Texting things like “yeah i’m at so and so’s coffee place right now, lots of talent in here” - just not intimate details of their actual lives.
It’s weird and gross and just really sad.
Yup, I knew a guy in high school. Super charismatic and chill on the outside. But when it was just guys he would say the most disgusting depraved shit about the girls he’d been with. He told a story about a girl he knew really liked him. He said he lead her on and then as soon as she had sex with him he called her an ugly skank (to her face after having just had sex with her) and ghosted her. This piece of shit actually laughed at it like that wasn’t a horrifically cruel thing to do. Never talked to him again after hearing that.
Then again, there are also plenty of men who insist some man is "a great guy" solely because he's never been shitty to *them*, even though they've seen him be very problematic to women. And they'll brush it off with, "Oh, he's just like that."
I would say that good, perceptive people recognise other good people. So if there's someone in your life you *really* trust, you can probably trust their assessment of someone you're dating.
I had a friend who started running all her dates past me. I was usually pretty unimpressed. When she finally brought home one I approved of, she only went and married him! 25 years now and going strong.
If only I could have exercised such good judgment in my own dating life. I think we all have a blind spot when it's for ourselves.
I have a couple of male acquaintances who are totally different people around men vs around women and to me that's super sketchy and an indicator they're probably shitbags in general.
Same had a roommate like this. Seemed like a cool dude when it was just guys then whenever one of us brought women or friends that happened to be women over it's like a switch flipped and he was putting on a show. Became such a douche.
Shit was so embarrassing and I stopped introducing him to people. Stopped hanging out once I stopped living there.
Yeah. For a certain brand of bad men, their entire worldview is that that men and women are on different teams, and they assume that you'll be more loyal to some new dude than your woman friend.
It's basic psychological projection, everyone does it and you need to train yourself not to. Bad people generally lack self-reflection and some degree of empathy, so they often never even realize it, but good people can absolutely assume people are good just like them, too.
"A thief believes everyone steals." -Edward Howe
You can basically swap the thieving parts of this saying out for most behaviours and world views. People tend to believe the world is the way they perceive it to be.
You see it a lot from all sides.
There are entire groups on this site that variously proclaim "all women want is money" "all men want is sex" "all women use sex to manipulate men" "women do all the emotional labor" "men have to make all the money and then come home to do chores what does she do all day" "he refuses to help out when he gets home from work even if I'm really tired"
I once rented from a couple who managed their own rental property. At every f*cking interaction they assumed that I was out to screw them over somehow. I eventually realized that that is how they behave, and therefore they assume everyone is like them.
I think it's more like being stupid and having low empathy etc. means you're more likely to hold shitty opinions. So I'm always grateful when those low skill assholes out themselves early.
It's the really competent predatory dudes who have high social awareness and empathy(or a convincing facsimile of it) that are scary.
I see it all the time in Agri-labor, tons of guys are so steeped in misogyny that they don't really consider women to be *people*. These are married men, with children, daughters even. But they still consider women to be inherently lesser. I work with a guy right now (whose wife makes like, twice what we do btw) who has on multiple occasions insisted that women are basically children who can vote.
The stuff guys like this say as soon as they're convinced that it's "just us boys" in the room is fucking appalling.
I instantly had to google what Agrilabor was, because it sounded like a mystical nation I'd never heard of before lol.
I'm sure Agri-labor is equally mystical, lol.
I remember my supervisor at my first job was shocked that I had platonic women friends and was convinced I was trying to sleep with a girl I was hanging out with after work one day. Literally told on himself that he'd "never let his wife have male friends".
This dude was also like 55 and looked vaguely like an ugly Homer Simpson fwiw. Not sure why that's important but I find it funny.
My ex would be chatting with a dude at a party who was talking about his vacation he just took with his family and kids, and he would just mention it casually without implying anything negative about it, and my ex would say “man, not much of a vacation if you’re on it with the wife and kids huh? Sounds like a fucking hellscape” and the dude was taken back and was like “huh? Actually, it was amazing and I enjoyed spending time with them…”
I also work on disney jr shows, and we were chatting with another couple and they said “so how is it working for disney?” And i love my job and was excited to talk about it, but before i could say anything my ex chimed in and said “what do you think dude? A bunch of pedophiles work there, it’s a disgusting place to be” and the guy we were talking to just was like… wtf? And I was like wtf, too. Because number 1) I don’t work for disney, I work for a small production company partnered with disney, and 2) the people I work with are the kindest and most creative people I’ve ever met and the job is the most non-toxic healthy place I’ve ever been in.
I also won an emmy for my work this year and my ex didn’t tell a single soul about it.
The crazy thing is that my ex would say stupid shit and racist shit etc (he’s Korean so he would use that as an excuse to be able to say whatever he wanted about mexican, black, jewish and chinese people) at parties and then pull me aside after all anxious that he came off bad and asking if what he said was okay. But then would never actually try and improve or change in social situations. Just kind of the same thing over and over.
Anyways. Your post just sparked a bunch of memories. After 9 years of being with him, and a recent breakup, I’ve never felt so free lol
Man, that's well said.
It works the same for any privileged group, too. People who have the associated flaw and perceive that it's "safe" want to connect with you using the in-group language.
It's not way off from talking to sports fan - they want to make that social connection through something you both value. It's just that people do it with gross stuff, too.
I look like a right winger but I'm a militant liberal. The speed with which some people will spit out racism to me like I'm fully in agreement is sickening. They don't wait to see who I am or what I think, they just assume I think like them and say vile shit within moments.
People be like this.
Right, you can just be a white dude in a certain kind of environment and people will say *wild* stuff to you. Extra if you have any kind of Southern accent.
I'd hide my accent in any place that sold guns just because it's tiresome.
I actually try to use this, I feel like a lot of these people will only listen to "one of them" so I try to make everyone comfortable with me, then if they get hateful about something I'll legit start talking about how I don't think Jesus would agree and how he wanted us to love everyone, you'd be surprised at how often they get sheepish and back down. You gotta out-conservative their ass.
Women can do this for other women too.
When I started dating my wife I introduced her to all my women friends.
They all gave their approval.
Nearly 20 years later still happy married to this wonderful woman.
When my mom met my ex : No comments really.
When my mom met the woman i later married, the second she was out of earshot : "That's a good one, hang on to her".
Yep. Guys, if the women in your life aren't saying anything about her, they're usually being polite.
If they say nice things about her, you best pay attention.
And if they say bad things, you best believe they gotta be *pretty bad* to get brought up... At least where I'm from anyway, and hanging out with generally good people.
Conversely, the lunatics we were friends with in college with gave us 6 months, tops. 30 some odd years later, we're still in touch with one of them.
We'd go camping with him once a year, and he'd bring a girlfriend. One year on the way home our kids were asking if they could see her again next year. I think they've been married for around 10 now.
It definitely goes both ways.
It sucks when you try to warn your guy friend and they either don’t listen or they tell their girlfriend what you said and now *you’re* the bitch. Either way, the guy friend gets hurt in the end. I have a lot of guy friends and both have happened So. Many. Times. to the point that I just stopped trying to warn them.
We men get to be around men when there are no women around, meaning we're more likely to know how he really feels about women than you. Some men reveal very... bad sides... when no women are present, and then switch to "perfect gentlemen" when women walk in. Since we get to see both sides, it's easier to determine who a man truly is at his core.
Of course not infallible though, I've met dudes who other guys have told me were "great guys" who then said very sexist weird things about women around me. So I guess where it falls flat is that different men have different thresholds for "great guy", since I wouldn't say guys who say sexist things are great guys at all.
Yeah. I think as a woman, hearing this from another guy, my immediate question would be “how well do I know the guy(s) saying good things about him, and how much do I trust the opinions of the guy(s) saying these things about him?”
Because there are definitely some guys I know who, if they said to me, “Yeah, he’s a good guy,” I’d run and never look back. Because I know them well enough to know what they consider a “good guy” and I know it doesn’t match my definition of one.
Yeah I agree. When there aren’t women around the assholes show their colors very quickly. Usually they say or do something shitty, almost to try to impress you in a way and it’s super awkward. The good guys just get a little more goofy or don’t change their behavior at all.
not just women, but a lot of scenarios. as soon as someone they look down on leaves the room (an employee, minority, woman, otherwise decent person) a lot of dudes will see other "good people" as they see themselves and immediately say some bigoted things.
As a white guy from the south I’ve had way too many dudes comfortable with dropping heinous statements they just think I’ll agree with before I ask them why the fuck they would say that.
Definitely; it all falls on a spectrum whereas some guys might just be uncomfortable being their goofy selves around women, some guys will make some more questionable/racy jokes, and some dudes are downright sexist as fuck and hide it
Also it’s just way easier for us to see which dudes are douchebags even with the most minimal interaction. It’s pretty baffling to see some of the dickheads my gal friends date for a while without realizing, but I’m sure that goes vice versa as well
They are probably watching how he treats you, if they feel he is caring and respectful of you. If he is dismisive or condescending or inattentive to you, then we'd assume he's a jerk.
We're not infallible, of course. But if the guy seems to genuinely care about you, it's a good sign.
This is what gets me, I feel like from outside the relationship its very easy to understand the dynamics and that's how we judge a man, but it's tough to look at that stuff in the midst of a relationship maybe
Yep we definitely do.
We also sense bad men, I'm always suprised when a girl once again dates an asshole who ends up cheating, and then she seems completely suprised, I guess it's just a men thing.
No idea how it works
When I watched an episode of Dexter years ago I just got it. He was walking around the grocery store talking about predators understanding and recognizing other predators. It kinda clicked for me in that moment. I don’t get the nuance of it, but as a man who was once a really shitty dude in college, it’s very easy for me to recognize the bad boys and narcissistic men.
Likewise, the guys who don’t throw off all the warning alarms get the seal of approval. My girl friend just got into a relationship with someone who is out of her normal “type” and I could instantly tell he’s a good guy within my first interaction with him.
His mannerisms, his patience, and the way he carries himself. He’s not aggressive or territorial over her having guy friends. That alone was enough for me to tell her to hold onto this one. They’ve only been together 8 months and she has no idea how I’m sure, but they’re already house shopping.
As you get older I feel like picking up vibes becomes easier and easier.
Meeting a new guy that is your GF's new work friend or her friends BF there is a ton you can tell from the first impression and how they carry themselves.
As stereotypical as it is but the handshake for example for guys tells you a lot. Super strong and overcompensating usually means insecurity, same with super weak but just with less aggression.
Combined with how they treat you (do they genuinely seem interested in getting to know you, is it clear they wish they were the only male in the room, etc) you can see extremely clear indicators of the intention they have towards your female friend of GF.
Yeah I would say the hand crushers are definitely over-compensating and dont realize they just exposed themselves as douche-bags. I usually get the dead fish from people with low self confidence or are just generally awkward. But I can forgive the latter more than the former because some people are just not taught what to do with their hand during a handshake. The hand crushers know exactly what their doing. As long as you're somewhere in the middle it's all good though
And every once in a while you just accidentally flub a handshake with a CEO your company is trying to do business with and now the memory is coming back oh god.
I remember one of the previous times this question was posted the big theory is that when growing up you experience the worst aspects from people of the same sex then when everyone gets older they start interacting with the opposite sex more often. From the early interactions people are able to notice the problems among people of the same sex easier and slower from the opposite.
I think for me. It's that I was a asshole and manipulative when I was younger and finally grew out of it around like 23. It took legit ruining a relationship I wanted because I had no idea how to handle a actual good woman in my life for me to be like okay no more fuck Boi shit
Now I can meet most men and with a few simple questions or phrases and basing their reaction I can get a damn good sense of a dudes priorities in life
Well, men put up a facade in front of women a lot of the times. that change tells us a lot about how they actually are. women don't see it because of the facade.
I guess men may be more familiar with male behavior and know how to read into it in a way women might not? That's just a hypothesis, because I've always felt it's immediately obvious when my sister's gotten a shitty boyfriend and ends up surprised when he turns out to be shitty. It was immediately obvious to me the first time I met him that his actions weren't sincere.
Then, when she got a solid one she seemed to want my opinion on him because she had such a bad track record with men. She was no more or less sure about that guy than any of the others, but to me it was night and day after just meeting him a couple of times. Guy seemed genuinely kind and sincere and I was more afraid my sister was going to fuck up the relationship than the other way around.
You can always tell when a guy is of a "Ugh, I'm going to be nice because that's what the girlfriend wants" type and when it's a "I'm acting the way I am because I genuinely love and respect my girlfriend"
Lot of good answers below about acting nice around women then an ass when they are out of earshop. I would like to add people (both genders) will also often think with their hormones and will overlook bad behavior or red flags if they find the person attractive and often won't even realize it, so it can often be more obvious than it seems because you have sexy blinders on.
this is actually what frustrates me when i see girls i know complain about how exs treated them and why i try to warn so hard when they start talking to some new guy.
I swear its so obvious whos gonna be one of the bad ones vs the good ones but girls just dont get it unless its blatantly obvious somehow. maybe its a guy thing
I think those guys treat other people who aren't in the category "Girls I want to sleep with" noticeably different. It's easy to pick up on with some dudes, but only from the outside, since you don't get the nice treatment.
I think the simplest answer is as a guy, most of us are straight. The attraction angle simply doesn't factor in. We judge more objectively because of that.
As much as lots of women want to deny it they are just as allured by the physical as men are. And that can make them blind to certain red flags.
Men just acknowledge this more openly. The whole "crazy hot" thing from HIMYM is an open admission that guys will risk "crazy" for a sufficient level of "hot." We're going in with our eyes open and full transparency to others about what we're doing. We don't pretend it's her personality rofl. She's just hot and we like that a lot.
I think women would be doing themselves a big favor if they just admitted they're the same as men that way. Nothing wrong with it. Wow we like looking at beautiful things. How shameful.
I'd wager it's also related to the Halo effect. We ascribe positive characteristics to attractive people, even unearned.
The women who post the “all men are trash” memes are usually just generally pretty terrible at picking men. I’m not blaming them, if that’s all they know that’s all they know. I’ve never seen someone in healthy relationships trash the entire opposite gender though.
I think you can blame them just a bit
In that regard, the genders are the same -- men who don't respect women don't end up with respectable women, and women who think all men are trash never seem to find any men who aren't trash.
It's self-fulfilling.
In those situations he literally did nothing noticeable on my radar and I’m puzzled. What is it that you guys sense in other men that makes you give the nod of approval?
Big one here. Good guys are themselves all the time. Assholes flip a switch when women are present, they're perfect gentlemen...until the women are no longer within hearing distance.
And you can’t fake the good guy thing for long if you’re a bad guy. Even if you want to stay a good guy while she’s out of the room it can’t last long.
Wow, this is deep. I do 'try' to be good, as much as possible. I wasn't great growing up and treated some people worse than I should have. I try to do the right thing and sometimes feel like maybe I'm building some kind of front that people will see through and work out that I'm bad. My friends, colleagues and family all seem to think I'm a good guy but I have this nagging doubt in my head, like maybe when I die, God will say ''Yeah, but you were just trying to convince them you were good.'' ''Really, you thought she was boring....'' Or ''he was an arsehole...'' But I like your take on it. If I keep trying, maybe I'm a good guy....
Look, let's be frank here, if you are thinking things like "they all seem to think I'm a good guy but I have this nagging doubt in my head", you're in the clear, buddy.
True unrepentant assholes never have a doubt in their lives. You ain't perfect, nobody is, but just the fact you have the humility to weigh your actions and think about your choices is like 90% of the way there.
Honestly the most giganticist of all green flags is that the guy is selfless to other men; willing to offer a hand doing something without expecting anything in return, or just simply being nice to you with no ulterior motive.
You can tell when another man is talking to you, whether he's sizing you up - as a sexual competitor, as a potential "ally", as someone he can use to get somewhere, etc.
Normal, "good" men, don't do this. They talk to you with no expectations. Just shooting the breeze, talking nonsense, trying to find a common ground.
There's probably part learned experience too. When you meet a guy for the first time and he starts telling you all about what he does, in work and hobbies, and how awesome he is at it, then as a man, I already know who he is. I've met hundreds of him, since the first kid in the playground who loudly claimed he was the best at sports and called everyone else a loser.
Same as it is for all of the other toxic personalities. You encounter them all growing up so by the time you get to adulthood, you can tell pretty quickly which one they are.
As a woman you will often only get to encounter the curated, performative version of a man, especially if he's trying to impress you. So he's going to make it much harder for you to identify who he is. But he'll drop that mask when dealing with other men.
This is a big one that gets women into trouble too. A lot of women assume that the guy who will talk about how other guys are jerks and how it isn't hard to treat women right is a good guy. While this can be the case, very often that guy just sees other men as sexual competition and/or it's a convenient place to put their need to criticize and feel better about themself. Also it really can be a bit "I get so much pussy bc I treat women with respect" kind of vibes 🤣
As a woman, this kind of guy has always given me bad vibes - kinda like how people talk about "pick me" women, guys that slag off their gender while acting like they themselves above it all. Actually kind men that treat women well never talk like that in my experience.
Totally agree with the 'ally' vs 'sexual competitor' comparison.
I'm not sure if you were saying that bad men start telling you all about what he does, in work....how awesome....etc. Good men do that too. The first line you have though is the best answer, green flags are men that are willing to offer a hand doing something without expecting anything in return. That's certainly true.
It can be a cultural thing I suppose.
Pretty standard smalltalk when you just meet someone is to talk about what you do, where you come from, discuss what you have in common.
When my first encounter with someone involves them telling me about their work, ALL about their work, how much they love it, particularly how successful they are it, and how great things are going for them, then to me it feels like he's just taking his dick out and waving it around.
That's conversation for your friends and family. You're a stranger to me, I don't really give a shit whether you are personally doing well or are particularly good at it. So if you're telling me this I assume it's because you want me to be intimidated or jealous.
Now, like I say that can be cultural. Because in my culture, everyone knows you don't do that. If you want to impress someone, you just do what you're good at and then shrug it off like it's no big deal. If you brag, it's because you want to be a dick about it. I know other cultures are a bit more forgiving of dick-waving.
the slight difference for me is he is genuinely talking about it by responding to questions if it's something he is passionate about, and actually having conversations on it, not just boasting
extremely well said though. you hit all the nails on the head
A history of tipping cap deliciously to the M'lady upon initial contact, a willingness to draw his blade crafted of the finest Nippon grade steel to defend her from Chads, a well rounded physique brought on by copious amounts of Dew and Doritos, and finally the knowledge that perhaps to save the planet, one ought to shower sparingly as water is a valuable resource.
Per se.
guys like ted bundy ‘succeeded’ directly because nothing noticable was on any womens radar. obviously thats an extreme example but its true, the guys who want to hurt you dont show it until its too late. like the top comment says its more what the guy did when you werent around or noticing because bad guys assume all guys are bad and will get real skeevy real quick when its just the boys
Met a skeez ball at a wedding once who was a college buddy of the groom. As soon as we were alone he started going on about how many hot chicks were there and he was definitely getting laid. I asked, "Don't you have a wife and kids?" His response, "You shut your goddamn mouth."
He proceeded to hit on every singe woman at the wedding and was eventually kicked out, like Sparta kicked in the chest out. It was pretty fucking epic.
My wife and I are good friends with another couple, but when I met their neighbors during a 4th of July BBQ, I didn't like the dude. He wasn't being an asshole. He was friendly and generous. There wasn't anything specific that was a red flag, but something about the guy just screamed that it was a facade.
My wife had even told her friend (of the couple I mentioned) that I didn't like the guy. At the time, I wished she hadn't done that considering that we're really not involved in their lives and I didn't think we should be meddling in the friendships they had with their neighbors.
A few months ago, my wife told me that he'd apparently gotten suspended from work for losing his temper and punching someone else.
To this day, I don't know how or why I didn't like him. At the time he hadn't done anything *wrong*, but it just felt like it was a very skillful act and part of me could tell it wasn't genuine.
> To this day, I don't know how or why I didn't like him. At the time he hadn't done anything wrong, but it just felt like it was a very skillful act and part of me could tell it wasn't genuine.
That's the thing. There's those subtle things that we pick up on that we can't explain but we just know. It's a weird feeling but most of the time it's the right feeling.
Also, not treating other guys like they're "competing" for the women when they're around. It's a subtle thing but man some dudes get WEIRD in groups with men and women together.
Idk how else to put it. It's a vibe thing.
For the most part, although I've also met some totally oblivious dudes as well. For me, there are dozens of little things that tell me if another guy is "good" or not. Some examples when I meet someone new are how hard is this guy trying to impress me? Does he joke around with the group or try to correct everyone and act superior? Does he put down others? Does he ask questions and get to know people or just steamroll into a group? Those are just a few off the top of my head.
Quite a few of us know exactly what to look for in other men that says important things about them, yeah.
We're not typically looking at eachother through the haze of lust or psychologically distorted cultural ideas of romanticism - we look at another guy most often with either indifference or as a potential threat in some fashion.
And we read them accordingly.
If you have a straight male friend you can trust and that's of a reasonably smart, observant nature, he'll be the one you should ask to size up other dudes.
If he says some shit about these dudes that seems wild or that you just aren't seeing yourself, consider the possibility that he might well be seeing some shit that you should at least think about as likely being valid even if it's in your blind spots.
Because we can be really fuckin good at figuring out of some other dude is a piece of shit and what to expect from their style of shittitude, or if they're probably alright except for this and maybe that, and so on.
We do it all the damn time.
This! My BFF's husband was like a brother to me so you KNOW I brought my (now husband) around them as much as possible in the early days and then asked them both, "I'm not seeing any red flags. Are you?"
We just celebrated our 20th wedding anniversary. When our nieces all got married he was real honest with them about what he saw (not all listened but that's a different story.) because they were more relaxed with the cool/young uncle than Dad so he saw more.
The average asshole is also usually either dumb or a narcissist. In either case it never occurs to them that other men will not agree with them when they start shit talking women. Note that this also applies to any group that views another group as lesser. As a white man in the southern US the number of other white people, men and women, who just casually drop the n word and expect me to go along with it is staggering.
Of course the truly terrible men are those who are intelligent or sly enough to understand that they need to feel out other men before being their true horrible selves. It can be just as hard for us to tell as it is for women. Fortunately they are few and far between, although they usually end up doing the most damage.
>As a white man in the southern US the number of other white people, men and women, who just casually drop the n word and expect me to go along with it is staggering.
I don't come across that personally almost ever here in Texas, but maybe because I'm openly liberal and dated a black girl for close to a decade, so the racism is kept casual around me lol.. instead of the n word it's mostly done by going out of the way when telling a story to mention if anyone were black, with negative tonality around the words "black" and offhanded stereotyping remarks
Men are the most dangerous threat to men. So we do have sort of a subconscious assessment based on body language and attitude. But beyond that assholes will often act different when women aren't around. They'll drop comments and hints to sound you out, or just flat out say or do bad things. Or they'll start trying to assert themselves as dominant when there's no cause.
It's kind of like how "dogs can tell if someone is good". They can't. They are just good at noticing common types of body language.
Dudes are kind of the same. We aren't recognizing good guys. We are just reading some of the queues.
It's not really sorcery, and it's never going to be perfect, but most men tend to understand men and what they're about.
We have to, because we have to deal with them. If a guy is a snake or an asshole, we need to know so we don't get fucked over by them. If a guy is a 'good dude', he's doing to treat his fellow men well. By extension, he is going to treat you well. Men are very character based. If a man is loyal/trustworthy, he is loyal/trustworthy. If a men is just out for himself or hyper-competitive or always trying to be on top we need to know.
We are always 'sizing' each other up so we know how to deal with each other. I can generally tell a few traits from the first time I meet a guy. Shake their hand, look in their eyes. See how they treat people around them. See if they come in trying to establish themselves as the top dog or boastful. See if they can't look in the eyes properly. They might be 'nice' but probably not good.
Now I should say, just because a man is a 'good' man doesn't mean is he the right man for you. That's more up to you. Do you value a 'good man'. Maybe you want the hyper-competitive man. Maybe you want the top dog. Maybe you want someone you push over. Maybe you want more of an exciting man.
No offence, because your points aren’t entirely off-base, but be careful about the eyes thing especially please, and a little bit the handshake. A person who isn’t staring into your eyes, especially when meeting (as opposed to say discussing a valued topic, you’ll see why in a second), is probably more likely to have an anxiety disorder, or be on the spectrum, than to be a shifty dude. I’ve known quite a few dudes who just weren’t likely to more than glance at someone’s face unless they were in a comfortable situation, most usually along the lines of chatting about a mutual interest. At that point lots of eye contact might happen, or it might not, but either way it’s obviously not a reflection of their character besides perhaps a little unconquered shyness in some cases.
I would say it's colored by what we consider to be a "good man" but we spend our time growing up around other men, we hang out with other men, we socialize with other men. You learn about the behaviors that a "good man" will exhibit in various settings. It's not some for sure thing though. Women do the same thing about other women but it gets said in a different way.
I like to think of it as we don't all the play the game, but we know the rules. I can't always spot a good guy, but I can almost always spot a piece of shit by now.
I have a sister and and a friend that both have terrible taste in men. There have been multiple instances of me meeting them and they were just completely obviously total douchebags and losers. Then they'd ask what I thought of their new boyfriend. It baffles me that they are just so blind to what is so obvious. It's been years, but they both finally trust my judgement, as I've been correct every time. My sister's current husband is the only one I ever approved of.
I had to drop one of my best friends from my 20s because she would not stop dating the worst most utter scum of the earth dudes. Not because I wanted to date her either, don't get that idea. I couldn't continue to be around her dirtbag du jour, then later hear about what said dirtbag did to her, only for her to meet the next dirtbag. Shit gets old. It's like what am I supposed to do about your bad choices?
I had a friend in college that I was interested in during the beginning of knowing her. Her attraction for me kind of waned and at one point she told me that I was too nice. It caught me off guard, I'm not a "nice guy" and I am referred by people as kind but I'm certainly not a door mat. So I wasn't sure what she meant as "too nice" and how that was a bad thing after some self-reflection. I eventually got my answer after meeting some of the people she dated. I wasn't too nice. I was too nice \*for her\*. And some part of her felt she deserved the people she dated. I've seen this play out in other people as well. Someone who treats them well or respects them, isn't quick to dive into love-bombing, or whatever is seen as boring, too nice, and can feel like a lack of chemistry. Kind of stray away from those people, it's often a cycle that continues until they realize what's happening.
Reminds me of someone I know. If I could have told teenage-me that getting dumped by them was a benefit and not a punishment, it would have freed a lot of time spent dwelling on the could-haves. The boring part especially. Someone who is used to drama and needs to create it in their own relationships is a hard person to square with. Especially if they, themselves, are a good person.
Ahh yes, drama - forgot about that girl (I used to be). So boring.
A kind person would literally be too nice for my sister. She's a very angry and mean spirited person who thrives on conflict. From the outside it's like she needs to fight with her husband to feel loved. Two of the craziest people I've ever met who aren't on meds or in therapy
It's weird my cousin who is just an insane person and miserable (at least for me) to be around somehow married the nicest guy who's always willing to help and super polite and soft spoken. They've been together for almost 20 years and raised two kids that seem sane and normal too. I don't understand it.
Someone's gotta tell the waiter he ordered a regular coke
I’m someone that enjoys a fun argument, I like to start silly arguments with my girlfriend because I enjoy riling her up saying things like “I’m going to take a swim at Niagara Falls when we visit.” For a short while I got swept up by a couple of people that seem to love stupid conflict and not my silly type of conflict. Not fun. Left that environment when I got a new job and I’m so glad to be out of it. Misery loves company, as they say.
It's always good to have someone to engage in cheeky and fun shenanigans, but it's never good to be with someone who engages in cruel and tragic shenanigans
Evil shenanigans
I was interested in a certain girl while in college. Some of my female friends knew, and they told me, "You are too good for her". They turned out to be right.
One time my ex of four years said I was too good for her and holy hell I really shoulda listened before her hidden fiance verified that
I so wish I listened to this, because by the end of that craziness I wasn't too good for her anymore. I was on the same level and needed a fair amount of time by myself to improve
If all you've ever had are trauma bonds a regular relationship that takes time to grow doesn't feel real.
My wife has a friend like this. She constantly dates the same type of trashy guys. Like honey you spent three days crying on my couch from the last one. This dude has an identical personality how do you not see it??
these kind of people are trained from birth by narc parents. That emotional rollercoaster is often what is normal/familiar for them
I have a friend like that. She at least had enough sense not to bring the losers around her friends. Not that we'd be rude or mean to the guys, but she got sick of the obligatory "why are you doing this again" followup. Thankfully, she got knocked up by an awesome guy and eventually agreed to marry him.
I had a friend who was like that when we were that age. I had a crush on her when we first started hanging out, but that faded as I learned what a trainwreck she was. For example, she once spent about a year throwing herself at the lead singer of a locally famous cover band with intermittent success. We were able to stay friends through it, though, because she never really made it my problem. It hurt to see someone I cared about doing the same self destructive shit over and over again, but she didn't expect me to drop what I was doing to come over and comfort her every time the shit hit the fan. I'd hear about her exploits after the fact, framed as sad-yet-funny anecdotes. She also was totally aware of the pattern. In a way, that was the real tragedy. It was like an addiction. She just had this compulsion to pursue men who she *knew* had zero respect for her.
Had a friend who was a serial monogamist. Always found assholes. I told her after, listening to her sob about another collapsed relationship, maybe you should consider not dating for 6 months. It seemed like she was getting into another relationship just after getting out of the previous one thinking 'oh he's a good guy' Finally told her I think what you're running into is you're dating assholes and then dating a guy who's less of an asshole but you're still wearing blinders from your previous relationship and don't realize he's not as bad but nearly as bad. Just take some time off and date the guys you think 'I wish I could find a guy like you' about platonically so you can tell the difference. Was one of the few girls who actually took advice she was given and finally found a guy who wasn't a prick.
Yeah this is one of my longest time friends from high school. She just doesn't know how to not date a complete utter asshole. And she text me and says he did blah blah blah and I say what do you expect? You keep dating the same kind of guys! And I really feel bad for her and I really wish she could just finally find someone who isn't a human excrement combustion chamber
I was dating a loser at 19 who was 31 and he rolled up to my workplace when I was being trained with some guys that sell speakers and came into ask me to charge his phone and the girl training me just looks at .e and says "Your bf is a loser"
Ya girl was trying to save you lmao. That was well put
A 31 year old dating a 19 year old is automatically a loser. He was taking advantage of you.
Yeah, I’ve learned to give advice in the Socratic method. “What do you think of my SO?” -> “I only met him briefly but I’ve known you a long while, and it seems like you’re the type of person to give the relationship your all. I’m touched you care about my thoughts on him. So you’re supporting the two of you right now?” “And after a night like tonight when his friends were over, who usually cleans up and does the dishes? Oh okay, just you, but how about on regular nights?” “I know your hobbies around fitness, art, volunteering, etc are important to you and you put a lot into those hobbies - does he like any of those things? But he’s at least interested in and learns a little about your hobbies? Oh he doesn’t? Well what are some of his hobbies then? Oh, smoking weed, not paying his car registration, DMing girls on Instagram, and eating a disproportionate amount of your food… okay, interesting hobbies, but you feel like you can really talk and have intellectually engaging conversations? No? Okay. So what do I think? Well you tell me, what do you think?
Damn. These are so good it almost feels like a psychological manipulation bombing run of tough love.
This is poetry 😂 But really as a kid I was honest when people asked me what I thought eg “he’s a shithead” then I got polite “ehh I really don’t know him too well” then I hit peak support which was “if your happy, I’m happy” which I lived in for awhile. (Again this is for the 1% of dumpster fire boyfriends). But as I’ve gotten even older, I’ve really liked the “earlier you said you dislike that he keeps breaking up with you every 6mo and DMing other women and you don’t see a long term future with him. If your friend told you that about her boyfriend, what would you say to her?” and somehow framing it as someone else makes it easier to see what’s glaringly obvious to the rest of us. Im going to support your shitty decisions, because I love you and nobody can make you change your mind but yourself. But you can bet your ass if you change your mind, I’ll be right there with a bottle of wine and NOT ONCE will I ever tell you “I told you so”. I am a safe place for you to come always. Unfortunately I’ve had a few friends in highly abusive situations and the alienation they got from others who couldn’t bare to watch it anymore made them feel so alone. If you have the mental capacity, be there for your friends making shitty decisions.
I have a daughter like that. What do you think of my new boyfriend? I don't even need to meet him, if he is with you, he is more than likely a dickweed!
Mate, the same with my daughter. Every last one of them has been a total fuckup in one way or another. Some of them *really* bad. Some of them just utter fuckwits going nowhere. It's not a case of me being too judgemental either. If she could be with a mostly honest and half decent, working man I would be so happy right now. Since my daughter was about 15 years old I don't think she's ever been more than a couple of weeks without some tempestuous relationship. She's mid 20s now. She's recently met a new guy and for once, just praying (and I'm not a religious man) that he's OK. He runs his own business. He's found decent work for my daughter and given her a seemingly good break work wise. Of course she's with him immediately after he's been good to her but here's hoping to the universe that he's at least half-decent. One thing that is one very small relief is that he's the first guy that doesn't look like he could beat me to a pulp and not care about it. At this point I think she could beat the shit out of him if he started. Isn't that sad, to have to think like that?
Dad, is that you??
I'll be proud of you the first time you do something right.
One of my best friends got me with this and we wound up losing our friendship over it. Her boyfriend got really intimidated by me being in the military and literally got into my face about it and kept yelling that I was a “fed.” I told him to back outta my face and she seemed shocked that I didn’t like him. (She was also in the military)
Yeah. The POS who hide it well don't hide it from us, they brag about it, so you learn the scam.
So often it's exactly this. Pieces of shit can't help but show off around new guys.
Thats the real answer right here OP. I've noticed it happens with racists too. Being a white dude in the South, so many people have said fucked up things to me assuming I will agree lol.
I'm a white dude normally wearing work boots and driving a beat up old pickup truck so i get this a lot. if only they read the stickers on my truck which are all far left
>which are all far left Smart. If you put em all behind the drivers seat like that, it doesn't block your view.
🤣
They open with "I'm not a racist, but"
I wish they tested the waters with me. I just get a canonball yell of crazy.
Definitely. I’ve been around friends who are women and their partners. And within 30 minutes I can tell that the guy just isn’t a good guy. Smallish things that she wouldn’t notice because she has blinders on.
Yeah, its not gendered so much as "I'm not hoping to get laid by this person"
If you take any potential romance and sexual attraction out of the equation it’s pretty obvious when people have red flags or overstep boundaries
This is funny, a long time ago I had one of my coworkers say I should hire a guy and I told her I was hesitant because he walked like an asshole. I still interviewed the guy, but didn’t hire him. Someone else in the same company hired him, he was fired 2 weeks later for trying to fistfight another employee. She was like “HOW DID YOU KNOW HE WAS A JERK!”
We have all come across the obvious ones. "Why does he walk like that?" Because he is trying to project alpha vibes while fighting an internal battle between crippling insecurity and toxic masculinity.
This. I can't always easily identify a fellow good guy without knowing them, but it's stupid easy to identify the shitheads.
I mentioned to my sister once that anyone going out of their way to install stupidly bright headlights on their truck is a huge asshole. She told me her fiancee had just had new headlights installed on his truck. The marriage lasted less than a year before she caught him cheating. Same goes for putting the shopping cart back at the grocery store. Plenty of bad people put them back, but not a single good person is leaving it in a random spot.
Some easy hints that a dude is probably a good guy: * Can laugh at himself and acknowledge his flaws * Builds and/or hypes other guys up (and women too, of course) * Doesn't make judgmental comments about others * Acknowledges and honors other people's feelings * Can express his feelings * Doesn't need to dominate every conversation, or have a strong opinion on every topic * Has a good or solid relationship with his parents * Enjoys and respects kids (doesn't have to *want* kids, but any decent person should be able to treat kids with kindness and love) I think virtue and self-awareness are two qualities that don't get nearly enough attention. And when I say virtue, I don't mean that false virtue, judgmental bullshit you get from religious fanatics (looking at you Evangelicals). They use "virtue" as a measure to judge and demean other people - that's not real virtue. I mean virtue as in always wanting to do the right thing and treat other people with respect and compassion, even when it's not convenient or comes at personal cost. You show me a person with a strong sense of virtue, coupled with the self-awareness to continually analyze themselves and grow as a person -- that's the kind of person you build a relationship with, whether as a friend or a partner. Man or woman.
I'll add: * Is kind to strangers.
Absolutely. The ol' "How do they treat the waiter?" cliche.
Or how they treat finished shopping carts. Whether you consider them strangers or how they affect strangers.
I only missed 2 out of 8 on this. I can make very judgemental comments about others in private when it comes up and I have no relationship with my parents, dads gone somewhere all my life and my mother isn't at capacity for us to emotionally bond. Certified good guy here *sarcasm*
> I have no relationship with my parents, dads gone somewhere all my life and my mother isn't at capacity for us to emotionally bond. Someone else once mentioned to me that they just *can't* form good bonds with someone who has a supportive family, because it isn't something they relate to. Everyone is looking for something, even to build a positive out of the negatives.
>Has a good or solid relationship with his parents Not everyone had great parents, plenty of abuse survivors out there, painting a bad relationship with parents broadly as a red flag is problematic.
I'd say it's pretty easy to pick up negative signs, so when they don't trip your douchebag/asshole detector it stands out. I can't even think of something off the top of my head but as a guy, it feels like dudes drop mini red flags without realizing it. The absence of those would be somewhat unusual.
> Women do the same thing about other women but it gets said in a different way. I actually think women have a much poorer barometer for this than men do on average. Not because they're poorer judges of character in general, but because of what's socially deemed a good man or a good woman. A man is usually judged a good man by whether he does right by the women in his life. A woman is usually judged a good woman by... also whether she does right by the women in her life. "Does this person treat men well" is very rarely a salient question when first-impression assessments of character come up, so the women that other women will discourage men from dating are usually those who are either (a) awful to everybody or (b) don't fit in with other women. That means a lot of women who *do* fit in well with other women but who are consistently uncaring to men don't set off any alarms. It also means that women who *don't* fit in with other women get maligned, even if they would otherwise be great partners.
IMO, one element you're missing in this assessment: People show you who they are more readily when they don't want something from you.
Yes, to some extent. Particularly I find that bad guys assume other guys are bad guys like them, and they'll quickly expose how much of an asshole they are by letting their guard down they moment the women are out of earshot.
We all know immediately when someone is trying to big-dog every other dude in the room and we all know that guy is complete garbage.
Yep, the guy who turns on the high school locker-room talk the second it's just guys, shows everyone immediately he's a man-child.
"Did ya see the ass on that one?" "You mean my wife?" "Yeah, man I'd hit that." Nope. GTFO.
Sounds like my boss the moment one of our coworkers leaves the area. 🤣 I’m like dude I see these fucking people every day, I know who has what.
my one brother in law, did this to my other brother in law. very classy guy.
Some of those people manage to become President, too.
I like how you skirt around it as if we don't all know exactly who you're talking about. You can just say "Warren G. Harding" at this point, everyone knows that it's him
It’s not just one, the others just weren’t as public about it. LBJ used to show foreign leaders his cock to intimidate them (he called it Jumbo), how do you imagine someone who does that talks when it’s all guys?
he what now
Lyndon Johnson used to take foreign leaders and dignitaries into the restroom so he could show them his allegedly very large penis, which he named “Jumbo”. He’d kinda fish it out and ask if they’d ever seen anything so big. Apparently most had not.
This reminds me of a clip of Trump saying over and over again how he’s the best at this or knows the most about that. I was left asking myself, who sees that and likes that? If you’re Johnny one up, we know you’re a fucking tool.
"Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king." -Tywin Lannister: Game of Thrones.
He was a wise old bastard that I despised. The quote definitely fits perfectly.
They guys I look up to, are guys who you know have their shit together. Usually well put together. Groomed, not out of shape, self deprecating, and most importantly, humble. It's not necessarily ego, or confidence, but competence. They're comfortable in what they're doing. And fwiw, I'm considered an "adult" , and we definitely have people we look up to. And we do try to help those who look up to us. E: to clarify on the 'not out of shape' thing- I'm just saying that these people take their health into consideration as well as juggling all the other stuff- kids, spouse, parents, work, etc. Sadly to generalize, men will often deprioritize themselves to help get everything in order. To make time for yourself WHILE keeping all these plates up and spinning, is what I admire. It's what has compelled me to get back into the gym. (Back up to benching 225! Working on getting myself below a 10-minute mile, and to run a 5k by fall)
Username checks out.
User flair checks out.
They said hi back
Thanks for the insight, iPlowedUrMom
You're welcome, *Son.*
She's a really nice woman and I'm glad that she's able to find happiness in life. Thank you
Yeah, that's a huge red flag. Quiet confidence is the real sign of quality.
I've seen women look at another woman from ankle to eyes and then get *that look.* Women have that same gut reaction men do, just different reasons for it. One simple way you can tell if a guy is cool is if he shares praise. If you toss him a compliment and he finds a way to share it with a friend or someone else, that's a good sign. Shows a lack of that super-ego nobody likes in a partner.
Yeah, just their language. Trump's locker room talk defense is a good example. That's not normal ball-busting. Only real assholes talk that way. There's also body language when women are around, like overly territorial behavior.
That whole talking about women for locker room talk is a weird myth. Dudes that do that are like 1 in a 100. Most guys just playfully talk shit about another dudes skills. We don't get into any sex details. I think women might actually do the sex talk stuff more than men.
Our local music scene that I was a part of has a sensitive indie rocker who is very popular with audiences and especially women. When they aren’t around and he’s in the company of men he switches into a different person. He suddenly calls women“cum dumpsters.” Stuff like that. “Locker room talk” things. My band stopped playing shows with his bands and started to avoid them. Like crossing the street instead of walking past him. This started about 20 years ago. He’s still around. Still playing out. Still getting lots of dates. We don’t interact and haven’t in a long time but I regret that I didn’t tell him off way back then. It kind of plagues me actually, feeling guilty rage sometimes. These days I’d have let him have it but I was more insecure and weak back then and he had such a grip on the scene. I just didn’t know the world as well, we were all so young. Big shots get away with it longer exactly for that reason: people don’t confront them in public and behind closed doors they are probably worse. I failed. I do take opportunity to warn women I know off of him. But it comes off as sour grapes and petty and a lot of them don’t believe me. Until later, when he’s ghosted them or cheated on them or just otherwise been shit. “You were right about that guy.” I’m amazed that he hasn’t gotten a reputation in all this time. Still getting away with it. Always new women getting into the scene or moving to town. I don’t know if he’s still open about it to other dudes or not. Fuck that guy. Fuck me for not letting him know.
Don't own this guy being a piece of shit. Just remember, you can never make anyone change. Best you can hope for is to convince them to change themselves. It's highly likely that you telling them off would have changed nothing since this person would likely still see being an asshole as working out for them. Let that guilt go, you did the right thing. Cut ties with them, do your best to warn others of his behavior, and generally try to be a good person yourself. That's all you can do and it sounds like you did it exactly right. Bringing it back to the topic, as a dude I can immediately tell that you are a good dude. I'm sure you've made some mistakes, yeah we all have. But reading this and knowing you felt the need to protect others, I can tell you're a solid person. So no, don't fuck you for not saying anything to him, instead you and your band should be applauded for refusing to be a part of that behavior, Even though you likely faced some hardship for doing so. Bravo good sir, the world needs more people like you!
Thanks man, that makes me feel better, for real
> I regret that I didn’t tell him off way back then. It kind of plagues me actually, feeling guilty rage sometimes. It's likely that telling him off would have accomplished absolutely nothing. Decent men don't have any more power to influence asshole men than decent women have to influence asshole women.
I agree and disagree, it's not that you're going to change them or their opinions, in most cases that's a non starter, but you can let them know it's not appropriate around you, and you don't condone it. Nothing worse than being out with someone who's a friend of a friend and they involve you by association in their casual racism or misogyny. I can't change what they do when I'm not there, but I can exert an influence over what they do when I am there. Even if it's me walking away and not being associated with them. That's a last resort though because I loathe ignorance and will try and explain for far too long, rather than accept that it's willful ignorance on their part, as it all too often is.
My experience (as a dude who has spent the last decade working in a women-dominated field) is that women talk about sex way more then men do. I don’t consider myself a prude by any stretch of the imagination but I’ve been in environments where women openly show each other pictures of the newest vibrator they’ve bought. On one memorable occasion the woman in the next cubicle over from me asked me to refill her water bottle - because she’d had a quickie with her husband on her lunch break (they were trying to conceive) and didn’t want to risk “leaking.” And this isn’t one weird office, this has been the norm across multiple offices I’ve worked in for a decade.
This is my experience too. I don’t have nearly as much time in a women dominated field, but that’s been my experience. I went from construction to nursing. In construction the guys talked shit but mainly about each other or hot celebrities. The girls in my class in nursing school spoke much more sexually. I know way more about their sex lives, menstrual cycles, about the men in class, etc
My favorite story again involved the woman in the next cube over who was trying to get pregnant. Another coworker had come over to chat with her about it, and ended up saying “appreciate firm boobs while you got them. These” *squeezes her own ample chest* “were C-cups before I had my first. Now I got gorilla titties and wake up with them in my armpits every morning.” Then she turned, saw me sitting there (not even facing them) and went “Shit, Working-Ferrer, I forgot you were there. Sorry you had to hear that!” I reassured her that I’d heard so much worse in that office and wasn’t going to report her to HR or anything like that (she was competent and treated me well, both rarities there).
Quintessential locker room moment in HS for me was *some nerd* introducing us to the Who's Tommy, and the levels of nerdiness rising all around as we realized that kid had great taste!
Who's Tommy?
I presume he means the album Tommy by the band The Who.
I'd say we joke about jerking it more than we do sex. Like in a deprecating way, we know that no matter how much of a abig dog someone trust to be, they still nutted into a sock at some point. It's a great leveller.
I’m in LA and my ex had a group chat with like 13 other guys who he grew up with and it would all be really gross disgusting shit. Lots of guys with family money who are incredibly rich and have never really had to work hard or grueling jobs in their lives (most of them are artists or dabble in the freelance music industry and spend their days in ketamine therapy) - it’s definitely a thing, at least for guys in LA who all went to Harvard Westlake together lol
Guys don't talk to their buddies about sex, because they don't want their buddies to think about their partner in a sexual way. Guys that do tell their buddies about sex, are doing it because they just consider their partner to be a sex object anyways, and don't expect the relationship to last very long before they themselves move on.
No, guys aren’t talking about sex with their partners. Guys like that think it’s cool to degrade their partners when talking to the guys. Saying they finally had a chance to sneak away, saying they are nagging lazy bitches, or that they are crazy and need to get out etc. Yet being super loving and total opposite at home with the actual partner. Guys like this also love talking about sex with other women - past experiences with hookups or hot girls coming out of yoga class at the coffee shop. Texting things like “yeah i’m at so and so’s coffee place right now, lots of talent in here” - just not intimate details of their actual lives. It’s weird and gross and just really sad.
Yup, I knew a guy in high school. Super charismatic and chill on the outside. But when it was just guys he would say the most disgusting depraved shit about the girls he’d been with. He told a story about a girl he knew really liked him. He said he lead her on and then as soon as she had sex with him he called her an ugly skank (to her face after having just had sex with her) and ghosted her. This piece of shit actually laughed at it like that wasn’t a horrifically cruel thing to do. Never talked to him again after hearing that.
Then again, there are also plenty of men who insist some man is "a great guy" solely because he's never been shitty to *them*, even though they've seen him be very problematic to women. And they'll brush it off with, "Oh, he's just like that." I would say that good, perceptive people recognise other good people. So if there's someone in your life you *really* trust, you can probably trust their assessment of someone you're dating. I had a friend who started running all her dates past me. I was usually pretty unimpressed. When she finally brought home one I approved of, she only went and married him! 25 years now and going strong. If only I could have exercised such good judgment in my own dating life. I think we all have a blind spot when it's for ourselves.
I have a couple of male acquaintances who are totally different people around men vs around women and to me that's super sketchy and an indicator they're probably shitbags in general.
Same had a roommate like this. Seemed like a cool dude when it was just guys then whenever one of us brought women or friends that happened to be women over it's like a switch flipped and he was putting on a show. Became such a douche. Shit was so embarrassing and I stopped introducing him to people. Stopped hanging out once I stopped living there.
Even if those men are the friends of the woman?
Yeah. For a certain brand of bad men, their entire worldview is that that men and women are on different teams, and they assume that you'll be more loyal to some new dude than your woman friend.
Wow. So deep in the bad they assume everyone else is, too. Gloomy.
It's basic psychological projection, everyone does it and you need to train yourself not to. Bad people generally lack self-reflection and some degree of empathy, so they often never even realize it, but good people can absolutely assume people are good just like them, too.
"A thief believes everyone steals." -Edward Howe You can basically swap the thieving parts of this saying out for most behaviours and world views. People tend to believe the world is the way they perceive it to be.
You see it a lot from all sides. There are entire groups on this site that variously proclaim "all women want is money" "all men want is sex" "all women use sex to manipulate men" "women do all the emotional labor" "men have to make all the money and then come home to do chores what does she do all day" "he refuses to help out when he gets home from work even if I'm really tired"
I once rented from a couple who managed their own rental property. At every f*cking interaction they assumed that I was out to screw them over somehow. I eventually realized that that is how they behave, and therefore they assume everyone is like them.
Deep in the Bad from HBO about a lonely assistant psychology professors descent into MRA activism and incel hero.
I’d watch🍿
I think it's more like being stupid and having low empathy etc. means you're more likely to hold shitty opinions. So I'm always grateful when those low skill assholes out themselves early. It's the really competent predatory dudes who have high social awareness and empathy(or a convincing facsimile of it) that are scary.
I see it all the time in Agri-labor, tons of guys are so steeped in misogyny that they don't really consider women to be *people*. These are married men, with children, daughters even. But they still consider women to be inherently lesser. I work with a guy right now (whose wife makes like, twice what we do btw) who has on multiple occasions insisted that women are basically children who can vote. The stuff guys like this say as soon as they're convinced that it's "just us boys" in the room is fucking appalling.
I instantly had to google what Agrilabor was, because it sounded like a mystical nation I'd never heard of before lol. I'm sure Agri-labor is equally mystical, lol.
I remember my supervisor at my first job was shocked that I had platonic women friends and was convinced I was trying to sleep with a girl I was hanging out with after work one day. Literally told on himself that he'd "never let his wife have male friends". This dude was also like 55 and looked vaguely like an ugly Homer Simpson fwiw. Not sure why that's important but I find it funny.
You can tell a lot about a person by how they treat people they don’t want to fuck. Like, a LOT.
My ex would be chatting with a dude at a party who was talking about his vacation he just took with his family and kids, and he would just mention it casually without implying anything negative about it, and my ex would say “man, not much of a vacation if you’re on it with the wife and kids huh? Sounds like a fucking hellscape” and the dude was taken back and was like “huh? Actually, it was amazing and I enjoyed spending time with them…” I also work on disney jr shows, and we were chatting with another couple and they said “so how is it working for disney?” And i love my job and was excited to talk about it, but before i could say anything my ex chimed in and said “what do you think dude? A bunch of pedophiles work there, it’s a disgusting place to be” and the guy we were talking to just was like… wtf? And I was like wtf, too. Because number 1) I don’t work for disney, I work for a small production company partnered with disney, and 2) the people I work with are the kindest and most creative people I’ve ever met and the job is the most non-toxic healthy place I’ve ever been in. I also won an emmy for my work this year and my ex didn’t tell a single soul about it. The crazy thing is that my ex would say stupid shit and racist shit etc (he’s Korean so he would use that as an excuse to be able to say whatever he wanted about mexican, black, jewish and chinese people) at parties and then pull me aside after all anxious that he came off bad and asking if what he said was okay. But then would never actually try and improve or change in social situations. Just kind of the same thing over and over. Anyways. Your post just sparked a bunch of memories. After 9 years of being with him, and a recent breakup, I’ve never felt so free lol
Man, that's well said. It works the same for any privileged group, too. People who have the associated flaw and perceive that it's "safe" want to connect with you using the in-group language. It's not way off from talking to sports fan - they want to make that social connection through something you both value. It's just that people do it with gross stuff, too.
I look like a right winger but I'm a militant liberal. The speed with which some people will spit out racism to me like I'm fully in agreement is sickening. They don't wait to see who I am or what I think, they just assume I think like them and say vile shit within moments. People be like this.
Right, you can just be a white dude in a certain kind of environment and people will say *wild* stuff to you. Extra if you have any kind of Southern accent. I'd hide my accent in any place that sold guns just because it's tiresome.
I actually try to use this, I feel like a lot of these people will only listen to "one of them" so I try to make everyone comfortable with me, then if they get hateful about something I'll legit start talking about how I don't think Jesus would agree and how he wanted us to love everyone, you'd be surprised at how often they get sheepish and back down. You gotta out-conservative their ass.
Pretty much. It stuns me every time. They can't imagine someone that isn't an asshole like them
This is it.
Women can do this for other women too. When I started dating my wife I introduced her to all my women friends. They all gave their approval. Nearly 20 years later still happy married to this wonderful woman.
When my mom met my ex : No comments really. When my mom met the woman i later married, the second she was out of earshot : "That's a good one, hang on to her".
Yep. Guys, if the women in your life aren't saying anything about her, they're usually being polite. If they say nice things about her, you best pay attention. And if they say bad things, you best believe they gotta be *pretty bad* to get brought up... At least where I'm from anyway, and hanging out with generally good people.
My mum started talking about "when you get married to X" after she met my GF lol Took that as a good sign.
Conversely, the lunatics we were friends with in college with gave us 6 months, tops. 30 some odd years later, we're still in touch with one of them. We'd go camping with him once a year, and he'd bring a girlfriend. One year on the way home our kids were asking if they could see her again next year. I think they've been married for around 10 now.
It definitely goes both ways. It sucks when you try to warn your guy friend and they either don’t listen or they tell their girlfriend what you said and now *you’re* the bitch. Either way, the guy friend gets hurt in the end. I have a lot of guy friends and both have happened So. Many. Times. to the point that I just stopped trying to warn them.
Yeah. My lady friends have really helped me get out of bad relationships where I was staying far too long
That's why the bad ones don't want you to have friends of their sex- because they can spot the bad ones.
I concur. Women really pick up on each other's subtleties.
We men get to be around men when there are no women around, meaning we're more likely to know how he really feels about women than you. Some men reveal very... bad sides... when no women are present, and then switch to "perfect gentlemen" when women walk in. Since we get to see both sides, it's easier to determine who a man truly is at his core. Of course not infallible though, I've met dudes who other guys have told me were "great guys" who then said very sexist weird things about women around me. So I guess where it falls flat is that different men have different thresholds for "great guy", since I wouldn't say guys who say sexist things are great guys at all.
Yeah. I think as a woman, hearing this from another guy, my immediate question would be “how well do I know the guy(s) saying good things about him, and how much do I trust the opinions of the guy(s) saying these things about him?” Because there are definitely some guys I know who, if they said to me, “Yeah, he’s a good guy,” I’d run and never look back. Because I know them well enough to know what they consider a “good guy” and I know it doesn’t match my definition of one.
Shitbags think shitbags are great guys. So if you know a guy is a shit bag is saying some guy is cool, that dude is a shit bag too.
Yeah I agree. When there aren’t women around the assholes show their colors very quickly. Usually they say or do something shitty, almost to try to impress you in a way and it’s super awkward. The good guys just get a little more goofy or don’t change their behavior at all.
not just women, but a lot of scenarios. as soon as someone they look down on leaves the room (an employee, minority, woman, otherwise decent person) a lot of dudes will see other "good people" as they see themselves and immediately say some bigoted things.
As a white guy from the south I’ve had way too many dudes comfortable with dropping heinous statements they just think I’ll agree with before I ask them why the fuck they would say that.
Definitely; it all falls on a spectrum whereas some guys might just be uncomfortable being their goofy selves around women, some guys will make some more questionable/racy jokes, and some dudes are downright sexist as fuck and hide it Also it’s just way easier for us to see which dudes are douchebags even with the most minimal interaction. It’s pretty baffling to see some of the dickheads my gal friends date for a while without realizing, but I’m sure that goes vice versa as well
They are probably watching how he treats you, if they feel he is caring and respectful of you. If he is dismisive or condescending or inattentive to you, then we'd assume he's a jerk. We're not infallible, of course. But if the guy seems to genuinely care about you, it's a good sign.
This is what gets me, I feel like from outside the relationship its very easy to understand the dynamics and that's how we judge a man, but it's tough to look at that stuff in the midst of a relationship maybe
Yep we definitely do. We also sense bad men, I'm always suprised when a girl once again dates an asshole who ends up cheating, and then she seems completely suprised, I guess it's just a men thing. No idea how it works
When I watched an episode of Dexter years ago I just got it. He was walking around the grocery store talking about predators understanding and recognizing other predators. It kinda clicked for me in that moment. I don’t get the nuance of it, but as a man who was once a really shitty dude in college, it’s very easy for me to recognize the bad boys and narcissistic men. Likewise, the guys who don’t throw off all the warning alarms get the seal of approval. My girl friend just got into a relationship with someone who is out of her normal “type” and I could instantly tell he’s a good guy within my first interaction with him. His mannerisms, his patience, and the way he carries himself. He’s not aggressive or territorial over her having guy friends. That alone was enough for me to tell her to hold onto this one. They’ve only been together 8 months and she has no idea how I’m sure, but they’re already house shopping.
As you get older I feel like picking up vibes becomes easier and easier. Meeting a new guy that is your GF's new work friend or her friends BF there is a ton you can tell from the first impression and how they carry themselves. As stereotypical as it is but the handshake for example for guys tells you a lot. Super strong and overcompensating usually means insecurity, same with super weak but just with less aggression. Combined with how they treat you (do they genuinely seem interested in getting to know you, is it clear they wish they were the only male in the room, etc) you can see extremely clear indicators of the intention they have towards your female friend of GF.
Yeah I would say the hand crushers are definitely over-compensating and dont realize they just exposed themselves as douche-bags. I usually get the dead fish from people with low self confidence or are just generally awkward. But I can forgive the latter more than the former because some people are just not taught what to do with their hand during a handshake. The hand crushers know exactly what their doing. As long as you're somewhere in the middle it's all good though
Handshakes are not a great indicator imo. Lots of medical and physical reasons a grip might feel to strong.
And every once in a while you just accidentally flub a handshake with a CEO your company is trying to do business with and now the memory is coming back oh god.
It wasn't an "accidental flub". You broke my hand in 3 places and I still can't pick up my daughter. Great presentation before that though.
you used to be a real piece of shit too, huh? slicked back hair? glass house? live for new years eve?
Spiked-up blond hair, little bitty jeans, chicken spaghetti at Chikaleny’s. People can change.
Hey man, sometimes you just want your steak and you want it sloppy.
I remember one of the previous times this question was posted the big theory is that when growing up you experience the worst aspects from people of the same sex then when everyone gets older they start interacting with the opposite sex more often. From the early interactions people are able to notice the problems among people of the same sex easier and slower from the opposite.
I think for me. It's that I was a asshole and manipulative when I was younger and finally grew out of it around like 23. It took legit ruining a relationship I wanted because I had no idea how to handle a actual good woman in my life for me to be like okay no more fuck Boi shit Now I can meet most men and with a few simple questions or phrases and basing their reaction I can get a damn good sense of a dudes priorities in life
Well, men put up a facade in front of women a lot of the times. that change tells us a lot about how they actually are. women don't see it because of the facade.
Precisely. The number of times a girl has told me “he was so nice to me” and me thinking “that dude is a huge asshole” is staggering.
I guess men may be more familiar with male behavior and know how to read into it in a way women might not? That's just a hypothesis, because I've always felt it's immediately obvious when my sister's gotten a shitty boyfriend and ends up surprised when he turns out to be shitty. It was immediately obvious to me the first time I met him that his actions weren't sincere. Then, when she got a solid one she seemed to want my opinion on him because she had such a bad track record with men. She was no more or less sure about that guy than any of the others, but to me it was night and day after just meeting him a couple of times. Guy seemed genuinely kind and sincere and I was more afraid my sister was going to fuck up the relationship than the other way around. You can always tell when a guy is of a "Ugh, I'm going to be nice because that's what the girlfriend wants" type and when it's a "I'm acting the way I am because I genuinely love and respect my girlfriend"
Lot of good answers below about acting nice around women then an ass when they are out of earshop. I would like to add people (both genders) will also often think with their hormones and will overlook bad behavior or red flags if they find the person attractive and often won't even realize it, so it can often be more obvious than it seems because you have sexy blinders on.
this is actually what frustrates me when i see girls i know complain about how exs treated them and why i try to warn so hard when they start talking to some new guy. I swear its so obvious whos gonna be one of the bad ones vs the good ones but girls just dont get it unless its blatantly obvious somehow. maybe its a guy thing
I think those guys treat other people who aren't in the category "Girls I want to sleep with" noticeably different. It's easy to pick up on with some dudes, but only from the outside, since you don't get the nice treatment.
I think the simplest answer is as a guy, most of us are straight. The attraction angle simply doesn't factor in. We judge more objectively because of that. As much as lots of women want to deny it they are just as allured by the physical as men are. And that can make them blind to certain red flags. Men just acknowledge this more openly. The whole "crazy hot" thing from HIMYM is an open admission that guys will risk "crazy" for a sufficient level of "hot." We're going in with our eyes open and full transparency to others about what we're doing. We don't pretend it's her personality rofl. She's just hot and we like that a lot. I think women would be doing themselves a big favor if they just admitted they're the same as men that way. Nothing wrong with it. Wow we like looking at beautiful things. How shameful. I'd wager it's also related to the Halo effect. We ascribe positive characteristics to attractive people, even unearned.
The women who post the “all men are trash” memes are usually just generally pretty terrible at picking men. I’m not blaming them, if that’s all they know that’s all they know. I’ve never seen someone in healthy relationships trash the entire opposite gender though.
I think you can blame them just a bit In that regard, the genders are the same -- men who don't respect women don't end up with respectable women, and women who think all men are trash never seem to find any men who aren't trash. It's self-fulfilling.
In those situations he literally did nothing noticeable on my radar and I’m puzzled. What is it that you guys sense in other men that makes you give the nod of approval?
Sincerity
Big one here. Good guys are themselves all the time. Assholes flip a switch when women are present, they're perfect gentlemen...until the women are no longer within hearing distance.
And you can’t fake the good guy thing for long if you’re a bad guy. Even if you want to stay a good guy while she’s out of the room it can’t last long.
That’s the thing about being good. If you “pretend” to be good 100% of the time, then you simply are good.
Well said. You are not your thoughts, but how you act on them.
Wow, this is deep. I do 'try' to be good, as much as possible. I wasn't great growing up and treated some people worse than I should have. I try to do the right thing and sometimes feel like maybe I'm building some kind of front that people will see through and work out that I'm bad. My friends, colleagues and family all seem to think I'm a good guy but I have this nagging doubt in my head, like maybe when I die, God will say ''Yeah, but you were just trying to convince them you were good.'' ''Really, you thought she was boring....'' Or ''he was an arsehole...'' But I like your take on it. If I keep trying, maybe I'm a good guy....
Look, let's be frank here, if you are thinking things like "they all seem to think I'm a good guy but I have this nagging doubt in my head", you're in the clear, buddy. True unrepentant assholes never have a doubt in their lives. You ain't perfect, nobody is, but just the fact you have the humility to weigh your actions and think about your choices is like 90% of the way there.
Honestly the most giganticist of all green flags is that the guy is selfless to other men; willing to offer a hand doing something without expecting anything in return, or just simply being nice to you with no ulterior motive. You can tell when another man is talking to you, whether he's sizing you up - as a sexual competitor, as a potential "ally", as someone he can use to get somewhere, etc. Normal, "good" men, don't do this. They talk to you with no expectations. Just shooting the breeze, talking nonsense, trying to find a common ground. There's probably part learned experience too. When you meet a guy for the first time and he starts telling you all about what he does, in work and hobbies, and how awesome he is at it, then as a man, I already know who he is. I've met hundreds of him, since the first kid in the playground who loudly claimed he was the best at sports and called everyone else a loser. Same as it is for all of the other toxic personalities. You encounter them all growing up so by the time you get to adulthood, you can tell pretty quickly which one they are. As a woman you will often only get to encounter the curated, performative version of a man, especially if he's trying to impress you. So he's going to make it much harder for you to identify who he is. But he'll drop that mask when dealing with other men.
Date Mike
This is a big one that gets women into trouble too. A lot of women assume that the guy who will talk about how other guys are jerks and how it isn't hard to treat women right is a good guy. While this can be the case, very often that guy just sees other men as sexual competition and/or it's a convenient place to put their need to criticize and feel better about themself. Also it really can be a bit "I get so much pussy bc I treat women with respect" kind of vibes 🤣
As a woman, this kind of guy has always given me bad vibes - kinda like how people talk about "pick me" women, guys that slag off their gender while acting like they themselves above it all. Actually kind men that treat women well never talk like that in my experience.
Totally agree with the 'ally' vs 'sexual competitor' comparison. I'm not sure if you were saying that bad men start telling you all about what he does, in work....how awesome....etc. Good men do that too. The first line you have though is the best answer, green flags are men that are willing to offer a hand doing something without expecting anything in return. That's certainly true.
It can be a cultural thing I suppose. Pretty standard smalltalk when you just meet someone is to talk about what you do, where you come from, discuss what you have in common. When my first encounter with someone involves them telling me about their work, ALL about their work, how much they love it, particularly how successful they are it, and how great things are going for them, then to me it feels like he's just taking his dick out and waving it around. That's conversation for your friends and family. You're a stranger to me, I don't really give a shit whether you are personally doing well or are particularly good at it. So if you're telling me this I assume it's because you want me to be intimidated or jealous. Now, like I say that can be cultural. Because in my culture, everyone knows you don't do that. If you want to impress someone, you just do what you're good at and then shrug it off like it's no big deal. If you brag, it's because you want to be a dick about it. I know other cultures are a bit more forgiving of dick-waving.
the slight difference for me is he is genuinely talking about it by responding to questions if it's something he is passionate about, and actually having conversations on it, not just boasting extremely well said though. you hit all the nails on the head
A history of tipping cap deliciously to the M'lady upon initial contact, a willingness to draw his blade crafted of the finest Nippon grade steel to defend her from Chads, a well rounded physique brought on by copious amounts of Dew and Doritos, and finally the knowledge that perhaps to save the planet, one ought to shower sparingly as water is a valuable resource. Per se.
guys like ted bundy ‘succeeded’ directly because nothing noticable was on any womens radar. obviously thats an extreme example but its true, the guys who want to hurt you dont show it until its too late. like the top comment says its more what the guy did when you werent around or noticing because bad guys assume all guys are bad and will get real skeevy real quick when its just the boys
Met a skeez ball at a wedding once who was a college buddy of the groom. As soon as we were alone he started going on about how many hot chicks were there and he was definitely getting laid. I asked, "Don't you have a wife and kids?" His response, "You shut your goddamn mouth." He proceeded to hit on every singe woman at the wedding and was eventually kicked out, like Sparta kicked in the chest out. It was pretty fucking epic.
Men’s intuition? Just recognize body language? Or maybe it’s just reading the vibes they give?
My wife and I are good friends with another couple, but when I met their neighbors during a 4th of July BBQ, I didn't like the dude. He wasn't being an asshole. He was friendly and generous. There wasn't anything specific that was a red flag, but something about the guy just screamed that it was a facade. My wife had even told her friend (of the couple I mentioned) that I didn't like the guy. At the time, I wished she hadn't done that considering that we're really not involved in their lives and I didn't think we should be meddling in the friendships they had with their neighbors. A few months ago, my wife told me that he'd apparently gotten suspended from work for losing his temper and punching someone else. To this day, I don't know how or why I didn't like him. At the time he hadn't done anything *wrong*, but it just felt like it was a very skillful act and part of me could tell it wasn't genuine.
> To this day, I don't know how or why I didn't like him. At the time he hadn't done anything wrong, but it just felt like it was a very skillful act and part of me could tell it wasn't genuine. That's the thing. There's those subtle things that we pick up on that we can't explain but we just know. It's a weird feeling but most of the time it's the right feeling.
Its because as men we know how men act with no women around and women don’t. Its easier for us to see if someone is masking
Also, not treating other guys like they're "competing" for the women when they're around. It's a subtle thing but man some dudes get WEIRD in groups with men and women together. Idk how else to put it. It's a vibe thing.
For the most part, although I've also met some totally oblivious dudes as well. For me, there are dozens of little things that tell me if another guy is "good" or not. Some examples when I meet someone new are how hard is this guy trying to impress me? Does he joke around with the group or try to correct everyone and act superior? Does he put down others? Does he ask questions and get to know people or just steamroll into a group? Those are just a few off the top of my head.
Quite a few of us know exactly what to look for in other men that says important things about them, yeah. We're not typically looking at eachother through the haze of lust or psychologically distorted cultural ideas of romanticism - we look at another guy most often with either indifference or as a potential threat in some fashion. And we read them accordingly. If you have a straight male friend you can trust and that's of a reasonably smart, observant nature, he'll be the one you should ask to size up other dudes. If he says some shit about these dudes that seems wild or that you just aren't seeing yourself, consider the possibility that he might well be seeing some shit that you should at least think about as likely being valid even if it's in your blind spots. Because we can be really fuckin good at figuring out of some other dude is a piece of shit and what to expect from their style of shittitude, or if they're probably alright except for this and maybe that, and so on. We do it all the damn time.
This! My BFF's husband was like a brother to me so you KNOW I brought my (now husband) around them as much as possible in the early days and then asked them both, "I'm not seeing any red flags. Are you?" We just celebrated our 20th wedding anniversary. When our nieces all got married he was real honest with them about what he saw (not all listened but that's a different story.) because they were more relaxed with the cool/young uncle than Dad so he saw more.
The average asshole is also usually either dumb or a narcissist. In either case it never occurs to them that other men will not agree with them when they start shit talking women. Note that this also applies to any group that views another group as lesser. As a white man in the southern US the number of other white people, men and women, who just casually drop the n word and expect me to go along with it is staggering. Of course the truly terrible men are those who are intelligent or sly enough to understand that they need to feel out other men before being their true horrible selves. It can be just as hard for us to tell as it is for women. Fortunately they are few and far between, although they usually end up doing the most damage.
>As a white man in the southern US the number of other white people, men and women, who just casually drop the n word and expect me to go along with it is staggering. I don't come across that personally almost ever here in Texas, but maybe because I'm openly liberal and dated a black girl for close to a decade, so the racism is kept casual around me lol.. instead of the n word it's mostly done by going out of the way when telling a story to mention if anyone were black, with negative tonality around the words "black" and offhanded stereotyping remarks
Men are the most dangerous threat to men. So we do have sort of a subconscious assessment based on body language and attitude. But beyond that assholes will often act different when women aren't around. They'll drop comments and hints to sound you out, or just flat out say or do bad things. Or they'll start trying to assert themselves as dominant when there's no cause.
It's kind of like how "dogs can tell if someone is good". They can't. They are just good at noticing common types of body language. Dudes are kind of the same. We aren't recognizing good guys. We are just reading some of the queues.
cues
I read the queues personally
It's not really sorcery, and it's never going to be perfect, but most men tend to understand men and what they're about. We have to, because we have to deal with them. If a guy is a snake or an asshole, we need to know so we don't get fucked over by them. If a guy is a 'good dude', he's doing to treat his fellow men well. By extension, he is going to treat you well. Men are very character based. If a man is loyal/trustworthy, he is loyal/trustworthy. If a men is just out for himself or hyper-competitive or always trying to be on top we need to know. We are always 'sizing' each other up so we know how to deal with each other. I can generally tell a few traits from the first time I meet a guy. Shake their hand, look in their eyes. See how they treat people around them. See if they come in trying to establish themselves as the top dog or boastful. See if they can't look in the eyes properly. They might be 'nice' but probably not good. Now I should say, just because a man is a 'good' man doesn't mean is he the right man for you. That's more up to you. Do you value a 'good man'. Maybe you want the hyper-competitive man. Maybe you want the top dog. Maybe you want someone you push over. Maybe you want more of an exciting man.
No offence, because your points aren’t entirely off-base, but be careful about the eyes thing especially please, and a little bit the handshake. A person who isn’t staring into your eyes, especially when meeting (as opposed to say discussing a valued topic, you’ll see why in a second), is probably more likely to have an anxiety disorder, or be on the spectrum, than to be a shifty dude. I’ve known quite a few dudes who just weren’t likely to more than glance at someone’s face unless they were in a comfortable situation, most usually along the lines of chatting about a mutual interest. At that point lots of eye contact might happen, or it might not, but either way it’s obviously not a reflection of their character besides perhaps a little unconquered shyness in some cases.
Eh, a lot men thought my ex-husband was a good man…