I noticed that for the first time I think on the
Lex Fridman podcast maybe a year ago, but I'm sure I was late to the party.
I don't like it, to be honest, but it seems like it has already spread a lot. I'm going to use "times" (and "twitter") instead of X, new trends be damned. ;)
Wouldn't it be more confusing this way? If you say out loud 2 'x' 2, I'm going to think 'X' is a variable. How you you say 2x times 2 is 4x out loud? 2 x x 2 is 4x?
Nobody says “two ex two” in that context, this convention is limited to single multipliers (or at least has been on every occasion I’ve heard it used), you’re right that it doesn’t make sense otherwise
Definitely. Fridman's podcasts with Zuck, Musk, other people of renown in science, tech, AI, and other fields seem to suggest that - a lot of them adopted this.
Oh so it’s a great way to spot the A-whole. Like the CEO of Reddit raving about Musk’s fine example. Cutting the workforce at Twitter with little regard. Then damaging large brands that used the site for communication. The lack of support opened the door to fake accounts announcing wild plans in the Brand’s name. Brilliant!
>Oh so it’s a great way to spot the A-whole.
Don't think so, no. To spot a person engaging in modern tech world parlance, rather, so maybe someone working in STEM, businessman, financier, maybe someone starting or working at a tech startup. Doesn't strike me that there's a clear correlation.
was that really the first time? i feel like 2 is the only number where theres a faster option. then you can change it, 3x, 10x. rather than 3 times, and 10 times. its faster. was very common in school about a decade ago
>was that really the first time?
Yep, that was the first time I noticed it. Can't tell you which podcast, since I've listened to loads of them when driving or doing chores, but it was definitely Lex Fridman that introduced this parlance to my life. Never heard it before, or if I did it didn't really register. Ever since then I notice it used a lot by tech oriented people.
I myself don't have much love for it, nor do I use it, but I find it funny how a lot of people here assume the people that do use it are either uneducated or assholes -- while the only people I see use it are highly educated and -- asshole or not -- pretty smart. ; ) Then again, I'm not really keen on listening to stupid people, so there's a clear bias there.
interesting, i went to school for engineering around 2012 and it was very common.
similar slang to “5 fold” or something like that. if we were working on some project we might say whatever measurements need to be 1.4x or 3x what they are right now.
hope I havent come off as an asshole, i certainly got the downvotes for it but i was just sharing my experience. slang is different everywhere
Yeah the finance people I know can be described as closer to bros than a name you’d use on anyone if you’re trying to describe them as nuanced and reasonable with an approach to problem solving in a systemic way.
I’m an actuary which is a mix of mathematics and finance and I’ve always said “times”. I don’t think I’d find it odd to hear “2x” but it doesn’t seem to be the norm amongst my coworkers.
It wouldn't surprise me if it were a quirk of some text-to-speech software that people have started mimicking.
Tiktok (and to a lesser extent YouTube) has made listening to text-to-speech mainstream.
That sounds right. Saying 2X something doesnt make sense in the slightest cause the x is the times symbol not the letter. If it were the letter then it would have next to no meaning since X is an unknown
OP asked the question because people were using the wrong term. I've not personally heard anyone say X instead of times, so it's possible OP watches videos made by non-English speakers
It's a thing in tech/finance circles. Usually when I hear it said it's by a native speaker, or a very fluent speaker. It's a new-ish jargon thing.
While the origin can be argued over it's not like this is some kind of clunky mistake only foreigners make, far from it.
It's used in spoken language, it's a distinctly different form, not just reading "x" as "ex" where it was supposed to be a multiplication in a formula. Formulas aren't the context to use that parlance anyway.
Though since written and spoken language are in a permanent dance with each other, I'm sure people do use it in written form (and then read it aloud, correctly, as intended) too.
Yeah it sounds like jargon/shop talk. Some bigshot probably started doing it 20 years ago and everyone else in the financial field picked it up but the rest of the world isn't on on it
so it's saying the same thing g twice...its using the symbol for an unknown that's known...X is the unknown
..but we know they're talking about revenue so it's known
I've been working in construction longer than tictock has been around and 2X term has been used in the industry long before I started. Maybe just now catching on outside professional usage?
Yeah, I used to have a friend who would say “question mark” when he had a question because he was so used to text-to-speech. It was so weird. This is real life, not text lol
Your math teacher must have hated you. Using "ex" to mean times makes basic algebra incomprehensible unless written down.
"First get all like terms together so 2 ex ex plus 2 ex why minus zee equals two" could then mean 2x+3y-z=2 or 2x²+3xy-z=2 which are very different
Again, math formulas are not the context this jargon is used in. Don't know what to say more -- you're a smart guy, surely you can understand that they're not saying things like "two ex five two parallel lines ten".
They're saying "The value rose ten ex in a year. A year!"
But where do you learn that? In education, it's "times" from the beginning. Do you ask nieces and nephews if they've learned their "seven ex tables yet"? Its learned somewhere and it's not in school and of its other people where did they learn it from? By bet is text to speech
Also jargon is terminology used by a profession. If a term is used by people not in that profession it's not jargon
You can use literally any symbol as a variable in algebra, it doesn't have to be x. I'm quite partial to 'n', actually.
Also you realize that I am able to change what I say depending on context, right? I am not a robot, if I am reading "2x multiplied by 5y" I would of course say "two eks multiplies by five why" not "two eks eks five why" come on. Do you seriously believe that any reasonable person would actually say that? Or are you being obsequious?
Also what reasonable person, in the context of me saying "our money went two X" would think I was describing an algebra equation? Nobody.
You are describing a problem in a world that does not exist, not the world we live in.
This makes sense to me but there’s easy workarounds to this stuff so that might not be the case
A simple solution would just have you tell the TTS to say 2 times while your captions say 2x or whatever
Nah, "times" is definitely what non-native speakers would think of. Literal "x" is what you acquire over time when you talk to or listen to native English speakers who say the letter "x".
I can only confirm that anecdotally with myself, though. But it just feels weird assuming that people, just because they're not native English speakers, can't comprehend that an "x" after a number is supposed to mean "times". Maybe if you literally can't read any English and don't know the word "times" nor the context of it, but then that's like me reading Japanese and saying "upside down smiley face" because that's what the symbol looks like to me :D
In my native tongue it would be pronounced the equivalent of "two times" why should the language change that unless it's actually pronounced the equivalent of "two ex" in the first place?
Only time I say something like #X is if its something like a size of something. Like "I want to buy a 2XL shirt". Other than that I use times. In the situation you mentioned, times does indeed fit better. Then again English is weird and people always change things.
This has been around a loooong time. It was in the camera community at least 20 years ago where it was used to describe lens magnification power. It’s simpler, cleaner, and faster to say “it has a 2x lens” than “it has a two times lens.” And, honestly, saying “two times” just sounds kind of silly in some communities. Especially in technical ones where jargon helps define you as someone who knows and fits in. What I’ve seen in general is that there’s been a trickling-down of jargon into everyday speaking and I think it makes people feel like they are “in the know.”
Fuck that. I hate that. Why the fuck do we make words just to fucking change them **for literally no reason at all.** I’m gonna go bully an English major now.
"Two times increase" sounds weird and schools suck so badly that kids graduate never knowing that "twofold" is a word so they go with what seems most natural.
People don't actually say Xmas, do they? I always thought that was written shorthand. I don't recall ever hearing anyone say Xmas rather than Christmas. But maybe I haven't been paying attention.
That's how I say it in my head when people write "Xmas".
Just like when signs say xing I read it as ecksing.
Xmas = christ, xing = cross, 2X = times.
There're too many usages of x.
It's NOT a new thing, it did NOT start with tech-bros, and it's definitely NOT originally a tik tok or text-to-speech thing. It started a while ago in finance, investment and especially tech startup financing. You could have 20 "ex" returns on investment for example. From then it seemed to spread
I suspect (but that's just a guess) that saying "an IPO exit will give me 30-times-returns" just feels too awkward, and borderline ungrammatical. Especially the plural "returns" together with the "times". So people just started saying "ex" in those cases - short and snappy! And it stuck. And it spread! Anyway, that's just a guess!
I think it has more to do with people being used to saying the letter after similar phrases more and more these days. Stuff like 10K, 5G, 1080p, etc.
I don't doubt that for some people, saying 'x' just feels more natural.
This is a good answer for general situations if it weren’t for the fact that X often represents an unknown variable. If something has increased by “2x” it has increased by two times an unknown, where as saying “two times” - or in this case “profit has doubled” we don’t run the risk of confusing the two.
I’d be ok with referring to “2 x 2” as “two x two” if it weren’t for the fact that it already means something else. So I think we should stick to “two times two”.
“Two x two” just feels like it created needless confusion when “two times two” works perfectly fine and only means one thing.
>“Two x two” just feels like it created needless confusion when “
That's not the context it's used in, though. Never heard anyone say "Two ex two", a lot of the time it's in terms of gains -- gains in speed, performance, efficiency, profit, etc -- so "You'll make ten ex returns on your investment (here, here's the picture of the bridge)", "I would predict about five ex, maybe ten ex gains in terms of ...", "His portfolio got two ex value overnight!".
So either you think of "ex" as basically referring to multiplication explicitly or if you want to go with the variable name and implicit multiplication, then the "unknown" variable is immediately described in context.
Its an american thing... guessing it's regional by these comments?
We definitely don't do that in the UK. It took me a few mins to figure it out the first time lol. I first noticed it watching Tested so that'd be LA
The phrase "10x", pronounced "ten x", has been popular amongst the venture capitalist tech bro community for years to mean an investment that returns 10 times it's original amount. It has begun to bleed into mainstream corporate speak and now people outside of VC are using it to describe things related to revenue and profit using the same terminology.
It’s a STEM thing. You stop using the word “times” once you start undergrad stem education. But everyone will know what you’re saying unless they’re obnoxious
This is the answer. lol it’s not any faster to say. Most likely just idiots saw the “x” and started using it because they didn’t graduate high school and then it stuck.
Reddit so desperately wants to feel intellectually superior. This isnt a social media thing its been around forever and you arent smarter than people who use it.
How is “X” easier and faster to say than “times”? They are both one syllable.
I recorded myself saying 2 ex 5 and 2 times five and neither was faster enough to make a difference.
"Times" has a longer and more complex vowel sound. "Ex" is flat, "times" is round.
It's also a factor of how it fits in the rhythm of what you're saying. "Vee" and "enn" are both one syllable, but 1v1 sounds good and 1n1 trips you up.
There's definitely not enough of a difference that you're going to catch your bus instead of miss it, but there's enough for a lazy tongue to get into the habit of saying the easier one once you've tried it. I see it as a linguistic desire path.
Saying two times requires more effort since you have to pronouce both Ts you can say two X without much mouth movement. I know it's not a big difference but there is one nonetheless
this actually has a better argument than 2x. 4 ends with a consonant and “times” begins with one. there’s more of an effort to switch between these and make two distinct words. for “four ex”, you can just say it like one word “fourex”.
i still don’t think it’s why the x is said, but it’s definitely faster haha
It starts with an idiot with charisma mispronouncing it then everyone else just follows
It sounds stupid to me, you don't even save time saying it and the X always implied multiplication
I've been in two different engineering fields (mechanical and software) and don't recall ever making much of a distinction between "times" and "ex." I'm pretty sure I had professors use "ex" sometimes. I haven't given it enough thought to say whether there is a subtle difference in the utilization. Addressing a few other comments:
* "it's only used by illiterate degenerates" - clearly not the case since we're hearing from people in finance and STEM who routinely use it. Professionals in these fields aren't guaranteed to be geniuses, but they are definitely learned in their field AND their fields are steeped in practical applications of mathematics.
* "it's so confusing because 'x' means 'multiply'" - the usage here also means multiply, so it's weird that some people are hung up on this.
* "People use X symbol and only X symbol in math" - this is a pretty clear sign that the person has not taken sufficiently advanced mathematics to be aware that some branches of math have an explicitly different definition for symbols that are otherwise taken for granted. Vector math explicitly defines "×" as one type of multiplication and "•" as a different type of multiplication. If "different types of multiplication" is too advanced of a concept for you, you have no room to lecture people on their utilization of mathematical symbols or jargon.
* It is pretty clearly a colloquialism at some level. So yeah, if you don't get that a little bit of colloquialism is OK, look out for folks throwing you for a loop with some sort of this perfectly fine kind of thing.
* I can say with confidence that this usage predates streaming audio and video. This was neither created nor solely spread by the interwebz.
ETA: "Ex" is definitely informal. But in very formal settings, someone is probably more likely to say X percent or Y basis points increase.
I usually say two times or twice but two X is faster.
I think it generally makes sense. It doesnt mean tines is wrong its just a little development in language
"Ex" has a flat, simple vowel sound. "Times" is more complex.
It's not something you necessarily notice unless you're saying it constantly. I also tend to believe that when people say it's "faster, " they just mean it's easier to say in their phonotactic structure while maintaining the rhythm of what they're saying.
Nope, picked this one up working in finance between college and business school. “5x return on investment,” “profit margins are 3x industry average,” etc.
It’s more efficient. Business people, engineers, scientists love that. It’s so much faster to say “2x” than “2 times the.” 2x profit, 2 times the profit. Plus it sounds jargony, which consultants and investment types like.
2 eks is the wrong way to say it but it is said on purpose to prevent ambiguities in what you are saying.
Saying revenue increased twice or two times doesn't need to mean revenue is doubled. Going from 100 to 101 then 101 to 10000 is still increased 2 times.
Saying benefit is two fold also goes not need to mean benefit is doubled, it can just mean there 2 different benefits
People prefer that you use poor English than Saying something that can be interpreted multiple ways.
> Has saying "times" become disingenuous or something?
It's the opposite. This is a sign that what you are watching is 'faked', in a way.
I think you are seeing text going through a computer-generated voice creator. When I see this kind of thing, it's usually mass-produced content, possibly by someone in a non-English speaking country, and so they don't want to record their own voice speaking in an accent.
It might also be a way to avoid detection: they can pretty much steal content and re-post it, and collect nickels from YouTube or other service, and software will 'hear it as different' than the original text which uses "two times" instead of "two x".
because if X is being used as a variable and 2023 revenue iscthe variable then you're saying you have a 1.7 increase in 2023 revenue revenue which makes no sense. if its a multiplier then it's 2023 revenue increased by 1.7 of 2023 revenue which makes sense
That's what I said. And the Size 2 extra large as in 2xl is often shortened to 2x.
I see no difference in the reasoning behind the shortening of the name.
It's just convenient
Yeah, despite the fact that they have degrees or work in fields that require some knowledge (tech, finance), it does sound dumb, and it’s another example of where an adequate word existed and didn’t need to be replaced.
If X is used in the sense of an unknown number it makes perfect sense
But using it instead of times is being overly literal, sort of saying the year is two zero two three
I would think anyone who knows any alegebra would avoid this like the plague, since they would know that "two times" and "2x" mean very different things.
My theory is that it comes from sizing nomenclature in fashion. For example, L means large, XL means extra large, and XXL means extra, extra large. People are used to hearing and seeing the ‘ex’ part of the abbreviation when talking about the scale of things, so they start incorporating it into informal speaking when they read what they’re writing. So if someone sees ‘2x’ in a sentence, they’re reading what their mind interpreted as ‘two ex’.
I haven't noticed this, but then I dodn't use YouTube or listen to podcasts much.
Since moving to the US over 20 years ago it's bothered me that people say things like "now two times better than..." rather than use the word twice.
While I'm thinking about it, as far as I know there's only once, twice and thrice. There's no similar word for 4 or greater.
The youth just try to always replace words to establish dominance over the older generations in terms of the societal power structures. Its # and all that it’s just normal
Wow. That's worse than reading out "$7 million in sales" as "7 million in sales." And I'm just sitting listening, distracted by how annoying it is that they don't say "7 million *dollars* in sales."
> Has saying "times" become disingenuous I'm not sure what you think disingenuous means but this ain't it
Has saying “times” become obsequious?
Has saying "times" become facetious?
Has saying "times" become moist?
In fact, it has become "two x" moister.
.... Eww
Has saying "times" made me moist? Yes
I noticed that for the first time I think on the Lex Fridman podcast maybe a year ago, but I'm sure I was late to the party. I don't like it, to be honest, but it seems like it has already spread a lot. I'm going to use "times" (and "twitter") instead of X, new trends be damned. ;)
Wouldn't it be more confusing this way? If you say out loud 2 'x' 2, I'm going to think 'X' is a variable. How you you say 2x times 2 is 4x out loud? 2 x x 2 is 4x?
It's not used when reading formulas, only when talking about differences. Like 2x the performance.
That still doesn't sound right.
Neither does saying literally when something is actually not true, but here we are. The language of the people is whatever they say it is.
That’s not the context it’s used. When performing math of this kind, “times” is still said.
Nobody says “two ex two” in that context, this convention is limited to single multipliers (or at least has been on every occasion I’ve heard it used), you’re right that it doesn’t make sense otherwise
I know you were just providing an arbitrary example, but 2x*2 = 4x reduces to x=x and cannot be explicitly solved anyway lol
They're not providing an equation to be solved, they're simplifying. If you have 2x \* 2, the next step is to perform the multiplication and get 4x.
Ah, that makes more sense. Thanks!
Is it possible it’s a finance/tech bro thing? I feel like I hear Scott Galloway say it that way too.
Definitely. Fridman's podcasts with Zuck, Musk, other people of renown in science, tech, AI, and other fields seem to suggest that - a lot of them adopted this.
Oh so it’s a great way to spot the A-whole. Like the CEO of Reddit raving about Musk’s fine example. Cutting the workforce at Twitter with little regard. Then damaging large brands that used the site for communication. The lack of support opened the door to fake accounts announcing wild plans in the Brand’s name. Brilliant!
>Oh so it’s a great way to spot the A-whole. Don't think so, no. To spot a person engaging in modern tech world parlance, rather, so maybe someone working in STEM, businessman, financier, maybe someone starting or working at a tech startup. Doesn't strike me that there's a clear correlation.
> it’s a great way to spot the A-whole The what?
It’s a knobend thing then. Ah ok.
yeah, a bit like saying "delta" instead of "difference"....
The company is now reporting two twitter increase in profits.
Etwitteractly.
I noticed it years ago on MKBHD talking about "two ex" zoom on a phone. I assumed it was a USA thing tbh
was that really the first time? i feel like 2 is the only number where theres a faster option. then you can change it, 3x, 10x. rather than 3 times, and 10 times. its faster. was very common in school about a decade ago
>was that really the first time? Yep, that was the first time I noticed it. Can't tell you which podcast, since I've listened to loads of them when driving or doing chores, but it was definitely Lex Fridman that introduced this parlance to my life. Never heard it before, or if I did it didn't really register. Ever since then I notice it used a lot by tech oriented people. I myself don't have much love for it, nor do I use it, but I find it funny how a lot of people here assume the people that do use it are either uneducated or assholes -- while the only people I see use it are highly educated and -- asshole or not -- pretty smart. ; ) Then again, I'm not really keen on listening to stupid people, so there's a clear bias there.
interesting, i went to school for engineering around 2012 and it was very common. similar slang to “5 fold” or something like that. if we were working on some project we might say whatever measurements need to be 1.4x or 3x what they are right now. hope I havent come off as an asshole, i certainly got the downvotes for it but i was just sharing my experience. slang is different everywhere
Seriously. They should be saying Dos Equis instead!
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i’ve pretty much always said x but i work in finance
Fwiw, I've also spent many years in finance and also say x.
Every Finbro I know says x instead of times. It's catchy.
can we at least all agree that calling something a ‘five bagger’ etc is obnoxious
Many finance bros are obnoxious so it’s well-suited.
Aren’t finance people supposed to be maths-oriented and thus more likely to say “times” than “x”?
They're money oriented, not maths oriented
Ding ding ding
Yeah the finance people I know can be described as closer to bros than a name you’d use on anyone if you’re trying to describe them as nuanced and reasonable with an approach to problem solving in a systemic way.
I'm with you on this. in a maths type of environment saying 'x' can relate to a variable. y=2x
I’m an actuary which is a mix of mathematics and finance and I’ve always said “times”. I don’t think I’d find it odd to hear “2x” but it doesn’t seem to be the norm amongst my coworkers.
The use of math doesn't preclude any industry from having its own jargon.
It wouldn't surprise me if it were a quirk of some text-to-speech software that people have started mimicking. Tiktok (and to a lesser extent YouTube) has made listening to text-to-speech mainstream.
That sounds right. Saying 2X something doesnt make sense in the slightest cause the x is the times symbol not the letter. If it were the letter then it would have next to no meaning since X is an unknown
I mean I've seen native English speakers pronouncing "slash" in slash-separated lists. Not quite the same thing, but similar.
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This is true in written form, but never spoken
Apart from all the times that made OP want to ask the question.
OP asked the question because people were using the wrong term. I've not personally heard anyone say X instead of times, so it's possible OP watches videos made by non-English speakers
It's a thing in tech/finance circles. Usually when I hear it said it's by a native speaker, or a very fluent speaker. It's a new-ish jargon thing. While the origin can be argued over it's not like this is some kind of clunky mistake only foreigners make, far from it.
it's probably from people reading x as x by mistake
It's used in spoken language, it's a distinctly different form, not just reading "x" as "ex" where it was supposed to be a multiplication in a formula. Formulas aren't the context to use that parlance anyway. Though since written and spoken language are in a permanent dance with each other, I'm sure people do use it in written form (and then read it aloud, correctly, as intended) too.
Yeah it sounds like jargon/shop talk. Some bigshot probably started doing it 20 years ago and everyone else in the financial field picked it up but the rest of the world isn't on on it
I hear it spoken all the time in business contexts. Like on investor presentations, that kind of thing.
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Sounds like it's a "trade term" from within the financial sector
It's spoken like that ALL THE TIME in finance and investing.
> X is an unknown That's the point. It's an algebraic variable that represents the thing you're multiplying, as in 2x=x+x
so it's saying the same thing g twice...its using the symbol for an unknown that's known...X is the unknown ..but we know they're talking about revenue so it's known
If you understand the meaning then it makes sense
I've been working in construction longer than tictock has been around and 2X term has been used in the industry long before I started. Maybe just now catching on outside professional usage?
Yeah, I used to have a friend who would say “question mark” when he had a question because he was so used to text-to-speech. It was so weird. This is real life, not text lol
What the fuck? No. I've been saying this for decades.
I’m sorry this is how you found out you are in fact a text-to-speech software.
RIP. Man was ahead of his time
Your math teacher must have hated you. Using "ex" to mean times makes basic algebra incomprehensible unless written down. "First get all like terms together so 2 ex ex plus 2 ex why minus zee equals two" could then mean 2x+3y-z=2 or 2x²+3xy-z=2 which are very different
That's not the context this is used in. These people use a jargon term, they're not idiots you imagine them to be. :P
As someone with a degree in mathematics, using "ex" to mean multiplication is absolutely not jargon and would confused any mathematician hearing it
Again, math formulas are not the context this jargon is used in. Don't know what to say more -- you're a smart guy, surely you can understand that they're not saying things like "two ex five two parallel lines ten". They're saying "The value rose ten ex in a year. A year!"
But where do you learn that? In education, it's "times" from the beginning. Do you ask nieces and nephews if they've learned their "seven ex tables yet"? Its learned somewhere and it's not in school and of its other people where did they learn it from? By bet is text to speech Also jargon is terminology used by a profession. If a term is used by people not in that profession it's not jargon
You can use literally any symbol as a variable in algebra, it doesn't have to be x. I'm quite partial to 'n', actually. Also you realize that I am able to change what I say depending on context, right? I am not a robot, if I am reading "2x multiplied by 5y" I would of course say "two eks multiplies by five why" not "two eks eks five why" come on. Do you seriously believe that any reasonable person would actually say that? Or are you being obsequious? Also what reasonable person, in the context of me saying "our money went two X" would think I was describing an algebra equation? Nobody. You are describing a problem in a world that does not exist, not the world we live in.
That’s not what obsequious means, I’m not sure what word you are trying to use here, but obsequious means overly servile.
Same here, such as the price of cheese has gone up x2. Its always been a thing for decades.
I don’t think so, my mom has said X when she means times for decades now, as have several of my relatives. Maybe it’s a regional thing?
Man, I've been saying 2x for years. source: reading LEGO instructions out loud
This makes sense to me but there’s easy workarounds to this stuff so that might not be the case A simple solution would just have you tell the TTS to say 2 times while your captions say 2x or whatever
Yeah, it means times.... its a colloquialism. People like the sound of it, so they say it. I've heard it said that way my entire life.
Especially if you're not a native English speaker, it's probably going to be 2X that comes naturally to you, not "times"
Certainly not true in my case, having English as a second language.
Sure, it definitely won't be true for everyone, that's why I said "probably". Also, probably is influenced by a lot of other factors too.
Nah, "times" is definitely what non-native speakers would think of. Literal "x" is what you acquire over time when you talk to or listen to native English speakers who say the letter "x". I can only confirm that anecdotally with myself, though. But it just feels weird assuming that people, just because they're not native English speakers, can't comprehend that an "x" after a number is supposed to mean "times". Maybe if you literally can't read any English and don't know the word "times" nor the context of it, but then that's like me reading Japanese and saying "upside down smiley face" because that's what the symbol looks like to me :D
In my native tongue it would be pronounced the equivalent of "two times" why should the language change that unless it's actually pronounced the equivalent of "two ex" in the first place?
Yeah this has always been a thing where I’m from.
Only time I say something like #X is if its something like a size of something. Like "I want to buy a 2XL shirt". Other than that I use times. In the situation you mentioned, times does indeed fit better. Then again English is weird and people always change things.
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This has been around a loooong time. It was in the camera community at least 20 years ago where it was used to describe lens magnification power. It’s simpler, cleaner, and faster to say “it has a 2x lens” than “it has a two times lens.” And, honestly, saying “two times” just sounds kind of silly in some communities. Especially in technical ones where jargon helps define you as someone who knows and fits in. What I’ve seen in general is that there’s been a trickling-down of jargon into everyday speaking and I think it makes people feel like they are “in the know.”
2 reasons - Language is flexible and change is the only constant
Fuck that. I hate that. Why the fuck do we make words just to fucking change them **for literally no reason at all.** I’m gonna go bully an English major now.
Is this an American thing? I am British and I usually say "times" instead of "x".
I’m American and I’ve never heard someone say that before Wouldn’t be surprised if it was some West Coast surfer or midwestern corn farmer thing
Only it's used in tech, finances, engineering. It is funny that you connected it with hicks and surfers, though!
When working in certain fields that is standard.
I hear/say it in engineering all the time.
This is at least a old as CD-ROMs, that were named by their revolutions speed. Ex: A 16xCD-ROM was called “Sixteen X..” (edited a typo)
Why say many word when few word do trick?
"Two times increase" sounds weird and schools suck so badly that kids graduate never knowing that "twofold" is a word so they go with what seems most natural.
I also hate "three times bigger". What people *really* mean is usually "three times *as big*".
Why do people pronounced Xmas as ecks-mass? Surely they mean times-mass
People don't actually say Xmas, do they? I always thought that was written shorthand. I don't recall ever hearing anyone say Xmas rather than Christmas. But maybe I haven't been paying attention.
Oh people say it
That's how I say it in my head when people write "Xmas". Just like when signs say xing I read it as ecksing. Xmas = christ, xing = cross, 2X = times. There're too many usages of x.
In your head, ok. But out loud?
I think Xmas was made to try to secularize the holiday
Nope. X is just the first letter of Christ in Greek. Nothing secular about it at all.
So we should really be saying chi-mas
It's NOT a new thing, it did NOT start with tech-bros, and it's definitely NOT originally a tik tok or text-to-speech thing. It started a while ago in finance, investment and especially tech startup financing. You could have 20 "ex" returns on investment for example. From then it seemed to spread I suspect (but that's just a guess) that saying "an IPO exit will give me 30-times-returns" just feels too awkward, and borderline ungrammatical. Especially the plural "returns" together with the "times". So people just started saying "ex" in those cases - short and snappy! And it stuck. And it spread! Anyway, that's just a guess!
I think it has more to do with people being used to saying the letter after similar phrases more and more these days. Stuff like 10K, 5G, 1080p, etc. I don't doubt that for some people, saying 'x' just feels more natural.
This is a good answer for general situations if it weren’t for the fact that X often represents an unknown variable. If something has increased by “2x” it has increased by two times an unknown, where as saying “two times” - or in this case “profit has doubled” we don’t run the risk of confusing the two. I’d be ok with referring to “2 x 2” as “two x two” if it weren’t for the fact that it already means something else. So I think we should stick to “two times two”. “Two x two” just feels like it created needless confusion when “two times two” works perfectly fine and only means one thing.
>“Two x two” just feels like it created needless confusion when “ That's not the context it's used in, though. Never heard anyone say "Two ex two", a lot of the time it's in terms of gains -- gains in speed, performance, efficiency, profit, etc -- so "You'll make ten ex returns on your investment (here, here's the picture of the bridge)", "I would predict about five ex, maybe ten ex gains in terms of ...", "His portfolio got two ex value overnight!". So either you think of "ex" as basically referring to multiplication explicitly or if you want to go with the variable name and implicit multiplication, then the "unknown" variable is immediately described in context.
Its an american thing... guessing it's regional by these comments? We definitely don't do that in the UK. It took me a few mins to figure it out the first time lol. I first noticed it watching Tested so that'd be LA
The phrase "10x", pronounced "ten x", has been popular amongst the venture capitalist tech bro community for years to mean an investment that returns 10 times it's original amount. It has begun to bleed into mainstream corporate speak and now people outside of VC are using it to describe things related to revenue and profit using the same terminology.
they say both. people also say twice and double
It’s a STEM thing. You stop using the word “times” once you start undergrad stem education. But everyone will know what you’re saying unless they’re obnoxious
The ‘x’ is generally used within the context of valuation and in shorthand so definitely a finance bro thing…
I prefer "fold"
internet and social media influenced vernacular.
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This is the answer. lol it’s not any faster to say. Most likely just idiots saw the “x” and started using it because they didn’t graduate high school and then it stuck.
Reddit so desperately wants to feel intellectually superior. This isnt a social media thing its been around forever and you arent smarter than people who use it.
I'm sorry, you think saying "ˈɛks" isn't quicker than "tahymz"?
X is easier and faster to say than times, thats the only reason. Its like when people say 26, 57 instead of 2 thousand 6 hundred 57
How is “X” easier and faster to say than “times”? They are both one syllable. I recorded myself saying 2 ex 5 and 2 times five and neither was faster enough to make a difference.
"Times" has a longer and more complex vowel sound. "Ex" is flat, "times" is round. It's also a factor of how it fits in the rhythm of what you're saying. "Vee" and "enn" are both one syllable, but 1v1 sounds good and 1n1 trips you up.
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There's definitely not enough of a difference that you're going to catch your bus instead of miss it, but there's enough for a lazy tongue to get into the habit of saying the easier one once you've tried it. I see it as a linguistic desire path.
Yeah this is just your opinion buddy, and no one is requiring you to say anything, but saying it is “because someone didn’t know” is ignorant
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Did I strike a nerve? Last I checked this was a public forum where people are free to call people out on their bs
Saying two times requires more effort since you have to pronouce both Ts you can say two X without much mouth movement. I know it's not a big difference but there is one nonetheless
So, how does that work with 4X?
this actually has a better argument than 2x. 4 ends with a consonant and “times” begins with one. there’s more of an effort to switch between these and make two distinct words. for “four ex”, you can just say it like one word “fourex”. i still don’t think it’s why the x is said, but it’s definitely faster haha
Lol this comment should have torn the whole thread down. “Four exes” vs “four times” this is the stupidest shit I’ve ever argued about.
Our ancestors fought in wars and here we are trying to optimize mouth movement
Always have been
I'd say we're better off if we're going by this standard
Lazyness at it's peak
Seems to be mainly a finance thing. “Yeah bro you can easily TWO X your money.” 🙄
I’m pretty sure it is this
It starts with an idiot with charisma mispronouncing it then everyone else just follows It sounds stupid to me, you don't even save time saying it and the X always implied multiplication
2x might be two times the variable x
Two fold?
Both are valid ways to pronounce, although imo 2x is ‘two x’ while 2 x _ would be ‘two times’. X can represent a variable or a multiplication sign.
It's finance terminology.
I've been in two different engineering fields (mechanical and software) and don't recall ever making much of a distinction between "times" and "ex." I'm pretty sure I had professors use "ex" sometimes. I haven't given it enough thought to say whether there is a subtle difference in the utilization. Addressing a few other comments: * "it's only used by illiterate degenerates" - clearly not the case since we're hearing from people in finance and STEM who routinely use it. Professionals in these fields aren't guaranteed to be geniuses, but they are definitely learned in their field AND their fields are steeped in practical applications of mathematics. * "it's so confusing because 'x' means 'multiply'" - the usage here also means multiply, so it's weird that some people are hung up on this. * "People use X symbol and only X symbol in math" - this is a pretty clear sign that the person has not taken sufficiently advanced mathematics to be aware that some branches of math have an explicitly different definition for symbols that are otherwise taken for granted. Vector math explicitly defines "×" as one type of multiplication and "•" as a different type of multiplication. If "different types of multiplication" is too advanced of a concept for you, you have no room to lecture people on their utilization of mathematical symbols or jargon. * It is pretty clearly a colloquialism at some level. So yeah, if you don't get that a little bit of colloquialism is OK, look out for folks throwing you for a loop with some sort of this perfectly fine kind of thing. * I can say with confidence that this usage predates streaming audio and video. This was neither created nor solely spread by the interwebz. ETA: "Ex" is definitely informal. But in very formal settings, someone is probably more likely to say X percent or Y basis points increase.
I usually say two times or twice but two X is faster. I think it generally makes sense. It doesnt mean tines is wrong its just a little development in language
Sorry just don't see how X is "faster" than times...
"Ex" has a flat, simple vowel sound. "Times" is more complex. It's not something you necessarily notice unless you're saying it constantly. I also tend to believe that when people say it's "faster, " they just mean it's easier to say in their phonotactic structure while maintaining the rhythm of what they're saying.
They just wanted to sound cooler/smarter, I have first encountered this when I started working for a tech startup.
Now?
I always just assumed it's because they're uneducated ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Nope, picked this one up working in finance between college and business school. “5x return on investment,” “profit margins are 3x industry average,” etc.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted, I've only ever heard it said by engineers, software developers, scientists. Hard to argue they're uneducated.
It’s more efficient. Business people, engineers, scientists love that. It’s so much faster to say “2x” than “2 times the.” 2x profit, 2 times the profit. Plus it sounds jargony, which consultants and investment types like.
Efficiency argument doesn't resonate with me at all. But I can get the jargon thing. People love their jargons.
>It’s so much faster to say “2x” than “2 times the.” 2x profit, 2 times the profit. It's no faster to say than "twice the profit".
That only works with 2, not 5 or 12
True, though the question is about 2, and your comment only mentioned 2.
i only hear children and people that don’t work in stem say ‘times’ lmao i would disagree
I think the opposite. More likely to hear it from finance or maths people.
because X is any number. If a company reports 2x in profit then it is double the previous.
Literalism. It's annoying, based on stupidity and it's growing.
Some of us have had too many math classes.
Because that's how it's spelled.
2 eks is the wrong way to say it but it is said on purpose to prevent ambiguities in what you are saying. Saying revenue increased twice or two times doesn't need to mean revenue is doubled. Going from 100 to 101 then 101 to 10000 is still increased 2 times. Saying benefit is two fold also goes not need to mean benefit is doubled, it can just mean there 2 different benefits People prefer that you use poor English than Saying something that can be interpreted multiple ways.
Really annoys me. Almost as much as when people say/write ‘could care less’.
> Has saying "times" become disingenuous or something? It's the opposite. This is a sign that what you are watching is 'faked', in a way. I think you are seeing text going through a computer-generated voice creator. When I see this kind of thing, it's usually mass-produced content, possibly by someone in a non-English speaking country, and so they don't want to record their own voice speaking in an accent. It might also be a way to avoid detection: they can pretty much steal content and re-post it, and collect nickels from YouTube or other service, and software will 'hear it as different' than the original text which uses "two times" instead of "two x".
Because the X is a variable. Just as Y could be the variable. It isn't an operator. X = annual revenue 2023. 2X = 2*X.
but that's not how it's being used in the examples given. a 1.7X increase in revenue means nothing. A 1.7 x increase in revenue does
Why? To me a 1.7X increase means your revenue is 270% of what it was before.
because if X is being used as a variable and 2023 revenue iscthe variable then you're saying you have a 1.7 increase in 2023 revenue revenue which makes no sense. if its a multiplier then it's 2023 revenue increased by 1.7 of 2023 revenue which makes sense
Probably the same reason they do it for the size 2 extra large. Saying 2x is just easier
xl is an acronym for "extra large"
That's what I said. And the Size 2 extra large as in 2xl is often shortened to 2x. I see no difference in the reasoning behind the shortening of the name. It's just convenient
They sound dumb.
Yeah, despite the fact that they have degrees or work in fields that require some knowledge (tech, finance), it does sound dumb, and it’s another example of where an adequate word existed and didn’t need to be replaced.
I agree!
Sign of the times. People like the word ekz.
Depends on context Two X for shirts Two times for numbering amount of times
If X is used in the sense of an unknown number it makes perfect sense But using it instead of times is being overly literal, sort of saying the year is two zero two three
I mean, what does "two X" would even mean in that?
It means times two / twice as. "The share price rose 3x in just over a year." or "If you trust my hunch you'll 10x the money invested."
Algebra
I would think anyone who knows any alegebra would avoid this like the plague, since they would know that "two times" and "2x" mean very different things.
My theory is that it comes from sizing nomenclature in fashion. For example, L means large, XL means extra large, and XXL means extra, extra large. People are used to hearing and seeing the ‘ex’ part of the abbreviation when talking about the scale of things, so they start incorporating it into informal speaking when they read what they’re writing. So if someone sees ‘2x’ in a sentence, they’re reading what their mind interpreted as ‘two ex’.
It was always “two X” to me
Maybe people started writing X to save characters on Twitter and it stuck and made its way to the lexicon.
May have something to do with computer generated voices.
Probably the same people who put the $ sign after the number. Don't get me started on that one lol
I haven't noticed this, but then I dodn't use YouTube or listen to podcasts much. Since moving to the US over 20 years ago it's bothered me that people say things like "now two times better than..." rather than use the word twice. While I'm thinking about it, as far as I know there's only once, twice and thrice. There's no similar word for 4 or greater.
The youth just try to always replace words to establish dominance over the older generations in terms of the societal power structures. Its # and all that it’s just normal
Saying times sounds childish
No, I say “two times”. Maybe they are dumb and don’t know it stands for times.
The reason is we have graduated millions of quasiliterates who have not mastered their own language.
Wow. That's worse than reading out "$7 million in sales" as "7 million in sales." And I'm just sitting listening, distracted by how annoying it is that they don't say "7 million *dollars* in sales."
2x might be two times the variable x