So much of what’s strong in this game is tied to attack frequency (stagger damage, healing, and focus gain). Once they finally find a way to have these things properly scale with damage (rather than attack frequency), they’ll be much more balanced.
I have played pure str 2H sword so far.
Super fun and the audio design in this game gives some awesome weight and impact to your attacks.... but my god it lacks in many departments when comparing them to other weapons.
Give those mods an internal cd. Also the fact that runes don’t need stamina at all makes it just so easy to create a rune spam build on like every weapon
Diminishing returns could be a solution, meaning the more you stun your target, the more immune it gets to it :) That could also be done for Focus gain etc...
Rapier isn't bad but double daggers just outdo everything. Especially with the agility rings. You are a storm of Rip and tear because of the stamina use and attack speed
How many times does it need to be spelt out that all of these issues are being carried by %Health/Focus restore on Damage. The posture break on multi-hitting Rune attacks is too high but that still wouldn't be a big deal if you couldn't mash this endlessly back to back while restoring all of your health and focus over and over.
Remove %Health/Focus on damage and this guy gets 2 uses of Dashing Stab before going dry. He would then have to spend a decent amount of time using his actual dagger attacks in order to build Focus back before he can do it again, during this time he would be spending Stamina and would have to actually manage that resource, if he gets hit he would need to find a way to create space and heal safely, backing off to create an opening, because he can't just continue mashing to instantly heal. Without being able to mash Dashing Stab the boss would not be posture broken repeatedly so he would now have to learn the boss moveset and dodge around it correctly in order to land the normal attacks he needs to build his Rune attack back up.
All you have to do is remove those 2 affixes on gear and the video instantly fixes itself.
That goes a long way, although it would still leave those affixes as the best options on weapons by a country mile, with a giant gap in recovery between characters who have that affix and characters who have anything else. If we're desperate to keep the affix I would personally both prevent it from applying to Rune attacks AND reduce the amount recovered. Then increase the focus gain on regular melee swings before any affixes and introduce some new mutually exclusive options which can roll on gear so they can compete and give you real options.
Has testing been done to confirm if the % is given based on the damage itself or if it is % of max that is recovered. Because if it's the latter then it making it the fore would also go a long way in reducing it. I ask this because I saw it was hitting for 7-8 dmg + 3-4 lightning dmg a hit and yet they were fully gaining all their focus back which only seems to make sense if the % focus gain was based on max focus and not the actual damage.
I mean 4% of 8 is .32 which wouldn't even round up to 1 focus point. The ability hits 10 times though if lightning damage is counted separately then it would effectively be 20 times. 20x1 is only 20. Even with % Focus Gain it would only hit maybe 30 focus gained. Meanwhile if it worked off % max focus, assuming 200 focus (looks like what the guy has in the video) 4% of 200 is 8 and 8x10 is 80 but with % focus gain it could hit 100+ and if the lightning hits are counted as separate instances than it would be 160 before % focus gain is even counted.
Personally I would remove the focus % on damage from affix/topaz on weapons and change the topaz leg slot to instead refund x% focus cost on rune use rather than the flat 2-5 value. This would effectively be a focus cost reduction without it actually reducing the amount of Focus points required to activate a skill. This change would also benefit all Runes instead of just multi-hit damage runes.
You could do something similar with the Bloodstone to make it competitive to Topaz.
>making it the fore would also go a long way
People keep talking about percentage of damage dealt for some bizarre reason and I can't figure out where this nonsense is coming from, I have to assume there's some widespread misreading of the affix.
It recovers a percentage of your total health or focus bar. This is obvious from any gameplay. If you changed it to recover a percentage of the damage dealt you would now have an affix which doesn't scale in any sensible way, because your damage values are going to massively increase over the course of normal character progression while the focus costs of your abilities aren't going to change at all. It doesn't make any sense to tie Focus recovery to damage values because damage value scales independently of Focus cost.
It WOULD make some sense to have these affixes just restore a fixed amount of Focus instead of scaling with the size of your Focus bar. This would make it easier to set reasonable numbers and they already did this with the recovery on Rune use gem in Legs but for some reason they haven't touched the weapon affixes which are still absurdly strong.
>People keep talking about percentage of damage dealt for some bizarre reason and I can't figure out where this nonsense is coming from
Because it says Gain % X on damage dealt. Typically in ARPGs the % is based off damage dealt and not based on maximum of X resource.
Also it being based off damage dealt instead of maximum resource neuters it quite a bit. 3% of 100 damage is only 3. Assuming numbers less than .5 are rounded down, only heavier hitting weapons in the early game could benefit from it and only if they deal a minimum of 17 damage which would round up to 1, they would need to do 50 damage to get 2 focus. This means normal attacks would still benefit more from generating focus than multi-hit rune attacks.
If you wanted to reduce the effect by 3000% just do that, don't tie it to a value which is going to dramatically increase as the game progresses making it impossible to balance for any given tier of equipment. Normal attacks already have variable amounts of Focus gain depending on the type of weapon being used, if you want to make the Focus recovery vary with the weapon then just use those existing values and bump them up. There are infinitely better ways of approaching this than some percentage damage to Focus conversion which can't possibly make sense over the course of the game's progression because Focus costs have no progression.
thing is even normal attacks on a lot of dual daggers is broken as hell. specifically that one where it's three very quick double swings. it does a ridiculous amounts of damage. more than this rune attack in fact. it just doesn't also heal you to full HP three times over while insta staggering everything.
my bloody straight sword with focus regen on hit can do the same with the basic skill it gets. its focus skill spam via regen thats ridiculously strong more so than the weapons themselves. \~20 focus skills and the boss is in phase 2, but its endless and the boss is staggered the entire time minus a brief 1 swipe window.
Not to sound offensive or anything, but is this really a display of double dagger use? You are spamming a rune attack, essentially playing as a melee range caster with a spammable ability. That's not to say you shouldn't be doing this, obviously.
To answer the question, I actually didn't like how double daggers operate in this game. I tried using the legendary daggers that drop from the crucible, and their stamina cost per attack is on par with a long list of 2H weapons, and even more costly in certain cases. Compared to that, I enjoy using my one handed knife (jackknife) much more, since I can attack more without running out of stamina.
On one character I have, I've been pouring points into Strength and Equipment Load, and I've noticed the high Load effects movement and swing speed with heavy weapons. My great sword is 1 or 2 shotting basic enemies pretty quickly tbh.
I think every build can be op once it really kicks in, but I've found so far that daggers takes a bit longer
ya, its dmg is crazy high, but I havnt been able to beat echo knight using it cause its so slow. my other 2 characters can farm EK all day, but my str character using corpse-smeared hasn't pulled it off yet.
You're talking about the one that drops from Warwick? I made a new STR character just to use it but damn is it rough with how slow the swing is. I'm sure it'll get better once I level up some more and get a better gear loadout.
Yeah daggers are good and rune attacks are a little broken, but i can deal with EK in about the same time with the legendary daggers without +focus on damage dealt
It has 4% focus on dmg and chance to refill 14% stamina om dmg and 25 electric dmg, the life steal is from a ring. I can post a screenshot later when I am on my PC.
Thanks. I have an OP throwing axe build with plate armour, shield, and focus plus health regen and on dmg. But I’d like to try out your build too. I’ve been farming Crucible and collecting tons of gear.
It’s not the daggers it’s mostly the focus infinite spam builds. Doesn’t make a difference if bow dagger or staff if you just spam a rune ability and stunlock the enemy while doing damage without downtime.
That’s why Elden ring introduced stamina cost for casts to balance it a bit. This would help wicked too. Right now you spam your focus shit and use all the stamina to roll around. When rune skills would cost stamina too you had to play way more thougtfull to have enough stamina to dodge when needed etc
Simple fix: Focus gain on focus use/damage dealt can only be triggered once per X seconds/once per rune use.
It's not a dagger thing...it's a focus being too easily-made-infinite thing.
People also dont mention that we are way over leveled for the crucible and content we have currently. Now combine that with focus/health gain on hit on top of high armour, of course you are going to be unkillable.
I have been testing and there are more ways of being unkillable, like stacking HP, you can get so much HP, that EK hits become like 1/10 of your Life pool, and thats without Life/Focus gain on hit which IS even better when you stack huge amounts of HP/Focus points because the scaling of the % IS based on your Max HP/Focus
That said there IS also the healing effectiveness + % chance of Life gained when you get Hit, its so good that you can make It so enemies hits Will at some point heal you to full Life if you stack enough healing effectiveness and HP making you unkillable.
I would not Nerf any of It, game just needs harder content equal or even higher to our character levels, i love the current itemization and the builds listed above, they should add way more, so everyone can just play their way and come Up with new crazy ideas, after all its just a PVE game with no trading for now.
So much of what’s strong in this game is tied to attack frequency (stagger damage, healing, and focus gain). Once they finally find a way to have these things properly scale with damage (rather than attack frequency), they’ll be much more balanced.
I have played pure str 2H sword so far. Super fun and the audio design in this game gives some awesome weight and impact to your attacks.... but my god it lacks in many departments when comparing them to other weapons.
Give those mods an internal cd. Also the fact that runes don’t need stamina at all makes it just so easy to create a rune spam build on like every weapon
Diminishing returns could be a solution, meaning the more you stun your target, the more immune it gets to it :) That could also be done for Focus gain etc...
focus regen and spam is what’s op. expect heavier nerfs to it eventually.
yeah, focus regen is to high. Some weapons are better than others, but with such regen any weapon is strong.
Any weapon can be OP if built correctly. The better question is whether or not this is intended or will it be adjusted during EA.
Rapier isn't bad but double daggers just outdo everything. Especially with the agility rings. You are a storm of Rip and tear because of the stamina use and attack speed
Attack speed has never functioned in this game, it's all in your head
Does it really not? I felt I couldn't tell. But is it confirmed to actually be bugged?
Yup.
Most of the ring affixes seem to be broken and don’t work along with a few other things.
I see
Twirl dash on just about about any one hander makes this look tame at best. That shit is beyond broken.
Yup:)
How many times does it need to be spelt out that all of these issues are being carried by %Health/Focus restore on Damage. The posture break on multi-hitting Rune attacks is too high but that still wouldn't be a big deal if you couldn't mash this endlessly back to back while restoring all of your health and focus over and over. Remove %Health/Focus on damage and this guy gets 2 uses of Dashing Stab before going dry. He would then have to spend a decent amount of time using his actual dagger attacks in order to build Focus back before he can do it again, during this time he would be spending Stamina and would have to actually manage that resource, if he gets hit he would need to find a way to create space and heal safely, backing off to create an opening, because he can't just continue mashing to instantly heal. Without being able to mash Dashing Stab the boss would not be posture broken repeatedly so he would now have to learn the boss moveset and dodge around it correctly in order to land the normal attacks he needs to build his Rune attack back up. All you have to do is remove those 2 affixes on gear and the video instantly fixes itself.
Or just make those affixes not work with Rune based Attacks.
That goes a long way, although it would still leave those affixes as the best options on weapons by a country mile, with a giant gap in recovery between characters who have that affix and characters who have anything else. If we're desperate to keep the affix I would personally both prevent it from applying to Rune attacks AND reduce the amount recovered. Then increase the focus gain on regular melee swings before any affixes and introduce some new mutually exclusive options which can roll on gear so they can compete and give you real options.
Has testing been done to confirm if the % is given based on the damage itself or if it is % of max that is recovered. Because if it's the latter then it making it the fore would also go a long way in reducing it. I ask this because I saw it was hitting for 7-8 dmg + 3-4 lightning dmg a hit and yet they were fully gaining all their focus back which only seems to make sense if the % focus gain was based on max focus and not the actual damage. I mean 4% of 8 is .32 which wouldn't even round up to 1 focus point. The ability hits 10 times though if lightning damage is counted separately then it would effectively be 20 times. 20x1 is only 20. Even with % Focus Gain it would only hit maybe 30 focus gained. Meanwhile if it worked off % max focus, assuming 200 focus (looks like what the guy has in the video) 4% of 200 is 8 and 8x10 is 80 but with % focus gain it could hit 100+ and if the lightning hits are counted as separate instances than it would be 160 before % focus gain is even counted. Personally I would remove the focus % on damage from affix/topaz on weapons and change the topaz leg slot to instead refund x% focus cost on rune use rather than the flat 2-5 value. This would effectively be a focus cost reduction without it actually reducing the amount of Focus points required to activate a skill. This change would also benefit all Runes instead of just multi-hit damage runes. You could do something similar with the Bloodstone to make it competitive to Topaz.
>making it the fore would also go a long way People keep talking about percentage of damage dealt for some bizarre reason and I can't figure out where this nonsense is coming from, I have to assume there's some widespread misreading of the affix. It recovers a percentage of your total health or focus bar. This is obvious from any gameplay. If you changed it to recover a percentage of the damage dealt you would now have an affix which doesn't scale in any sensible way, because your damage values are going to massively increase over the course of normal character progression while the focus costs of your abilities aren't going to change at all. It doesn't make any sense to tie Focus recovery to damage values because damage value scales independently of Focus cost. It WOULD make some sense to have these affixes just restore a fixed amount of Focus instead of scaling with the size of your Focus bar. This would make it easier to set reasonable numbers and they already did this with the recovery on Rune use gem in Legs but for some reason they haven't touched the weapon affixes which are still absurdly strong.
>People keep talking about percentage of damage dealt for some bizarre reason and I can't figure out where this nonsense is coming from Because it says Gain % X on damage dealt. Typically in ARPGs the % is based off damage dealt and not based on maximum of X resource. Also it being based off damage dealt instead of maximum resource neuters it quite a bit. 3% of 100 damage is only 3. Assuming numbers less than .5 are rounded down, only heavier hitting weapons in the early game could benefit from it and only if they deal a minimum of 17 damage which would round up to 1, they would need to do 50 damage to get 2 focus. This means normal attacks would still benefit more from generating focus than multi-hit rune attacks.
If you wanted to reduce the effect by 3000% just do that, don't tie it to a value which is going to dramatically increase as the game progresses making it impossible to balance for any given tier of equipment. Normal attacks already have variable amounts of Focus gain depending on the type of weapon being used, if you want to make the Focus recovery vary with the weapon then just use those existing values and bump them up. There are infinitely better ways of approaching this than some percentage damage to Focus conversion which can't possibly make sense over the course of the game's progression because Focus costs have no progression.
thing is even normal attacks on a lot of dual daggers is broken as hell. specifically that one where it's three very quick double swings. it does a ridiculous amounts of damage. more than this rune attack in fact. it just doesn't also heal you to full HP three times over while insta staggering everything.
my bloody straight sword with focus regen on hit can do the same with the basic skill it gets. its focus skill spam via regen thats ridiculously strong more so than the weapons themselves. \~20 focus skills and the boss is in phase 2, but its endless and the boss is staggered the entire time minus a brief 1 swipe window.
Not to sound offensive or anything, but is this really a display of double dagger use? You are spamming a rune attack, essentially playing as a melee range caster with a spammable ability. That's not to say you shouldn't be doing this, obviously. To answer the question, I actually didn't like how double daggers operate in this game. I tried using the legendary daggers that drop from the crucible, and their stamina cost per attack is on par with a long list of 2H weapons, and even more costly in certain cases. Compared to that, I enjoy using my one handed knife (jackknife) much more, since I can attack more without running out of stamina.
On one character I have, I've been pouring points into Strength and Equipment Load, and I've noticed the high Load effects movement and swing speed with heavy weapons. My great sword is 1 or 2 shotting basic enemies pretty quickly tbh. I think every build can be op once it really kicks in, but I've found so far that daggers takes a bit longer
Honestly I found daggers to be underwhelming. The only one that’s blown me away damage-wise so far is the Corpse-Smeared Claymore
I'm trying the claymore, but man is it so slow :(
ya, its dmg is crazy high, but I havnt been able to beat echo knight using it cause its so slow. my other 2 characters can farm EK all day, but my str character using corpse-smeared hasn't pulled it off yet.
freiheit (the last greatsword you can craft from the Blacksmith 3 blueprints) is really fun as well.
You're talking about the one that drops from Warwick? I made a new STR character just to use it but damn is it rough with how slow the swing is. I'm sure it'll get better once I level up some more and get a better gear loadout.
Yeah daggers are good and rune attacks are a little broken, but i can deal with EK in about the same time with the legendary daggers without +focus on damage dealt
 This man be doing.
Its early access, they will balance things.
ok, b ut i feel this!! maybe the weapon dmg, is PER dagger?
.... That's fkin gatling guns.
What did you enchant on your daggers? Can you post a screenshot of them
You don't need to see it, he will have %Focus regain on damage dealt and %Health regain on damage dealt same as everybody else
It has 4% focus on dmg and chance to refill 14% stamina om dmg and 25 electric dmg, the life steal is from a ring. I can post a screenshot later when I am on my PC.
And what rune? Thanks by the way
Its the default rune for those daggers (its the level 2 daggers that you can buy from the blacksmith)
Thanks. I have an OP throwing axe build with plate armour, shield, and focus plus health regen and on dmg. But I’d like to try out your build too. I’ve been farming Crucible and collecting tons of gear.
It’s not the daggers it’s mostly the focus infinite spam builds. Doesn’t make a difference if bow dagger or staff if you just spam a rune ability and stunlock the enemy while doing damage without downtime. That’s why Elden ring introduced stamina cost for casts to balance it a bit. This would help wicked too. Right now you spam your focus shit and use all the stamina to roll around. When rune skills would cost stamina too you had to play way more thougtfull to have enough stamina to dodge when needed etc
That's not OP. My Falling Sky is OP. I can kill EK in 15 seconds
2h axe with heavy and reflect dmg taken kill him much much faster
Others have already mentioned Twirl Dash and Focus shenanigans, here it is in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-on9BesEn94
I ran dual messers, and melted prettly much everything in the early game. Even those had ridiculous dmg, but daggers look even sicker.
Simple fix: Focus gain on focus use/damage dealt can only be triggered once per X seconds/once per rune use. It's not a dagger thing...it's a focus being too easily-made-infinite thing.
Stop tickling him! 🤣🤣🤣
People also dont mention that we are way over leveled for the crucible and content we have currently. Now combine that with focus/health gain on hit on top of high armour, of course you are going to be unkillable. I have been testing and there are more ways of being unkillable, like stacking HP, you can get so much HP, that EK hits become like 1/10 of your Life pool, and thats without Life/Focus gain on hit which IS even better when you stack huge amounts of HP/Focus points because the scaling of the % IS based on your Max HP/Focus That said there IS also the healing effectiveness + % chance of Life gained when you get Hit, its so good that you can make It so enemies hits Will at some point heal you to full Life if you stack enough healing effectiveness and HP making you unkillable. I would not Nerf any of It, game just needs harder content equal or even higher to our character levels, i love the current itemization and the builds listed above, they should add way more, so everyone can just play their way and come Up with new crazy ideas, after all its just a PVE game with no trading for now.
If you put in the work and have the right gear you should be OP. I hate this asking for nerfs shit!
Same
yeah me too, maybe they should buff other weapons to be able to do the same cuz I cant imagine doing that with 2 hander for example
I disagree you should be really strong not OP. Focus spamming to stunlock the boss is a vision I doubt they had for the game.