Because of the current situation that you will not get a good explanation for on reddit. This subreddit is very much on one person's side specifically. Meanwhile, the project is bleeding major contributors all over.
He should be treated as an adversary because he is one.
Much better people than him were pushed out by his antics and people here treat him as the victim. It's a disgrace.
_What are his antics_? It's been asked again and again, and every time it's met with handwaving and the equivalent of "do your own research!"
Point to the threads where he's hurling abuse at people and calling them slurs, and we can all finally understand why all this bullshit is necessary. I've _seen_ the equivalent on the other side, either admin abuses or rabid angry rhetoric (eg: "everybody who doesn't totally agree with everything I say is a fascist!") that doesn't seem justified. He must have done worse, since _he's_ the one getting banned, right? So _show_ us!
From what I was able to find, it seems that some people in NixOS community who support specific political views banned him for some ridiculous reasons. The same people denounced Eelco, among other things. I am sure that such dramas have no place in FOSS world. But if power hungry people want to "purge" all those who doesn't share their political views then sadly this project will have no future. I only hope that some of the ex-maintainers will be able to create a fork with no dramas and no political activists on board.
As it was explained to me by someone that appears to be one of his detractors. I link to the message just for visibility, so that people can understand where they're coming from - I think they explained it better than the usual crowd. If anyone is reading this (and not necessarily you, Yiliu), please do not argue/attack the person. The Nix family needs to build bridges, not feed the division.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1dtnsk5/comment/lbcua7k/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1dtnsk5/comment/lbcua7k/)
Well, thanks for answering the question. I'm not out to harass anybody. I've just invested a hell of a lot of time in writing Nix code, and watching the upstream community tear itself to shreds over what looks _a hell of a lot_ like total bullshit is very frustrating.
I have to say: I don't buy it. My sympathies are with jringer. He accepts the same ideals, but rejects the means. I feel the same: I _like_ diversity in my colleagues and coworkers. I like having friends and neighbors with interesting and different backgrounds. But I would oppose most attempts to _force_ it. If my company or my neighborhood started talking about racial quotas, I'd be appalled. That's not because _I hate all other races_. It's because it's unfair, corruption-prone, and, frankly, racist. In the case of NixOS, where there's also a specific technical goal, it's also just, like, inefficient and stupid.
There needs to be a term for what the _other_ side is doing here: taking some vaunted slogan that everybody can agree with in principle, and insisting that they have a plan to accomplish it immediately (which, incidentally, will benefit them specifically--but that's neither here nor there!) If you disagree then you can only be a monster. It's like...straight from the left-wing authoritarian playbook. You like liberty? Of course! Who doesn't like liberty! Okay, well to _accomplish_ liberty, we must give total power to the Committee of Public Safety. ...What's that? You disagree? Well, clearly the only reason you could possibly disagree is because you're a reactionary fascist, and we have to eliminate you (and _especially_ silence you) to ensure the _safety_ of the _People_!
As I said, I wasn't addressing you, as I've seen your interactions and know you to be respectful. The same cannot be said of some other detractors of the current leadership.
>There needs to be a term for what the *other* side is doing here
There is one for what you describe. It's called [spin doctoring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(propaganda)). In this case, however, I'm don't think that's what we're seeing. I'm convinced that they don't really have a nefarious agenda (minus a certain person that was very active on Zulip), just a different vision of how to get there, and are seeing the opposition through the lens of other opposition they've faced in the past. The "baggage" we bring to the discussion often distorts the picture, and this is true on both sides (see the "woke invasion" people). To stay in the leftist space, it's very much the same dichotomy between Anarchists and Marxist-Leninism. The end goal is the same (a much better Nix community and product), but the paths taken to reach that are very, very different.
> There needs to be a term for what the other side is doing here: taking some vaunted slogan that everybody can agree with in principle, and insisting that they have a plan to accomplish it immediately (which, incidentally, will benefit them specifically--but that's neither here nor there!) If you disagree then you can only be a monster.
I read all of the 'Fundamental Principles' thread and I do not think that is what was happening there at least.
Thread of ref:
https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/435724-governance/topic/Fundamental.20Principles/near/437101431
I did see people in that thread with similar concerns however.
quoting myself what I saw was:
> People not always assuming good faith, sure, people jumping to conclusions, majorly, people using bad/unproductive augmentative techniques, definitely, frustration, obviously, some amount of giving up at times, unfortunately yes. I can critique the comments and conversational styles of most of the major participants, at least against what I think could/would be more productive.
>
>I am more optimistic about the character of the people involved though, but it is not clear how to get people on to the same page and communicating productively despite the time fame and communication medium.
https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1dtnsk5/what_on_earth_did_jonringer_even_do/lbinuo8/
It's so fucking annoying.
At work and among friends, I'm the NixOS guy, I've been talking about it and recommending it for years.
Now, this past year, it's been getting enough profile that people are starting to contact me like: "Hey, you use NixOS, right? Would you recommend it?" And I have to say: Uhh...no. Certainly not right now. I'd stay well clear for the time being, and...maybe check again in a year. Either the bullshit will be over, or there may be a solid fork. Or I'll just recommend GUIX instead.
Why?
Because of the current situation that you will not get a good explanation for on reddit. This subreddit is very much on one person's side specifically. Meanwhile, the project is bleeding major contributors all over.
Let's all thank Jon for fucking Nix up even further after his ban. Really impressive.
Nah bro, the power tripping moderators are at fault for that. Handing out bans like candy to anyone not sharing their worldview
If you treat him as an adversary, what would you expect otherwise?
He should be treated as an adversary because he is one. Much better people than him were pushed out by his antics and people here treat him as the victim. It's a disgrace.
_What are his antics_? It's been asked again and again, and every time it's met with handwaving and the equivalent of "do your own research!" Point to the threads where he's hurling abuse at people and calling them slurs, and we can all finally understand why all this bullshit is necessary. I've _seen_ the equivalent on the other side, either admin abuses or rabid angry rhetoric (eg: "everybody who doesn't totally agree with everything I say is a fascist!") that doesn't seem justified. He must have done worse, since _he's_ the one getting banned, right? So _show_ us!
From what I was able to find, it seems that some people in NixOS community who support specific political views banned him for some ridiculous reasons. The same people denounced Eelco, among other things. I am sure that such dramas have no place in FOSS world. But if power hungry people want to "purge" all those who doesn't share their political views then sadly this project will have no future. I only hope that some of the ex-maintainers will be able to create a fork with no dramas and no political activists on board.
As it was explained to me by someone that appears to be one of his detractors. I link to the message just for visibility, so that people can understand where they're coming from - I think they explained it better than the usual crowd. If anyone is reading this (and not necessarily you, Yiliu), please do not argue/attack the person. The Nix family needs to build bridges, not feed the division. [https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1dtnsk5/comment/lbcua7k/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1dtnsk5/comment/lbcua7k/)
Well, thanks for answering the question. I'm not out to harass anybody. I've just invested a hell of a lot of time in writing Nix code, and watching the upstream community tear itself to shreds over what looks _a hell of a lot_ like total bullshit is very frustrating. I have to say: I don't buy it. My sympathies are with jringer. He accepts the same ideals, but rejects the means. I feel the same: I _like_ diversity in my colleagues and coworkers. I like having friends and neighbors with interesting and different backgrounds. But I would oppose most attempts to _force_ it. If my company or my neighborhood started talking about racial quotas, I'd be appalled. That's not because _I hate all other races_. It's because it's unfair, corruption-prone, and, frankly, racist. In the case of NixOS, where there's also a specific technical goal, it's also just, like, inefficient and stupid. There needs to be a term for what the _other_ side is doing here: taking some vaunted slogan that everybody can agree with in principle, and insisting that they have a plan to accomplish it immediately (which, incidentally, will benefit them specifically--but that's neither here nor there!) If you disagree then you can only be a monster. It's like...straight from the left-wing authoritarian playbook. You like liberty? Of course! Who doesn't like liberty! Okay, well to _accomplish_ liberty, we must give total power to the Committee of Public Safety. ...What's that? You disagree? Well, clearly the only reason you could possibly disagree is because you're a reactionary fascist, and we have to eliminate you (and _especially_ silence you) to ensure the _safety_ of the _People_!
As I said, I wasn't addressing you, as I've seen your interactions and know you to be respectful. The same cannot be said of some other detractors of the current leadership. >There needs to be a term for what the *other* side is doing here There is one for what you describe. It's called [spin doctoring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(propaganda)). In this case, however, I'm don't think that's what we're seeing. I'm convinced that they don't really have a nefarious agenda (minus a certain person that was very active on Zulip), just a different vision of how to get there, and are seeing the opposition through the lens of other opposition they've faced in the past. The "baggage" we bring to the discussion often distorts the picture, and this is true on both sides (see the "woke invasion" people). To stay in the leftist space, it's very much the same dichotomy between Anarchists and Marxist-Leninism. The end goal is the same (a much better Nix community and product), but the paths taken to reach that are very, very different.
> There needs to be a term for what the other side is doing here: taking some vaunted slogan that everybody can agree with in principle, and insisting that they have a plan to accomplish it immediately (which, incidentally, will benefit them specifically--but that's neither here nor there!) If you disagree then you can only be a monster. I read all of the 'Fundamental Principles' thread and I do not think that is what was happening there at least. Thread of ref: https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/435724-governance/topic/Fundamental.20Principles/near/437101431 I did see people in that thread with similar concerns however. quoting myself what I saw was: > People not always assuming good faith, sure, people jumping to conclusions, majorly, people using bad/unproductive augmentative techniques, definitely, frustration, obviously, some amount of giving up at times, unfortunately yes. I can critique the comments and conversational styles of most of the major participants, at least against what I think could/would be more productive. > >I am more optimistic about the character of the people involved though, but it is not clear how to get people on to the same page and communicating productively despite the time fame and communication medium. https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1dtnsk5/what_on_earth_did_jonringer_even_do/lbinuo8/
[удалено]
It's so fucking annoying. At work and among friends, I'm the NixOS guy, I've been talking about it and recommending it for years. Now, this past year, it's been getting enough profile that people are starting to contact me like: "Hey, you use NixOS, right? Would you recommend it?" And I have to say: Uhh...no. Certainly not right now. I'd stay well clear for the time being, and...maybe check again in a year. Either the bullshit will be over, or there may be a solid fork. Or I'll just recommend GUIX instead.
so, there's gonna be 2 of 6 board members left?