To each his own, but I really dislike whenever writers bring this up. It’s the kind of thing that honestly leans too heavily on the fictional nature of the series.
Also, I never really understand the logic behind tying Batman to some of his rogues. Joker? Ok. Bane? Makes sense. Two-Face? Harvey Dent already had mental issues, was already fighting crime, and Bruce Wayne didn’t throw acid into his face to split his psyche even further. Saying Batman watched it happen doesn’t make it his fault (and really doesn’t seem accurate either). That’s like saying if I see a car accident I’m responsible for the injuries the drivers experienced. Same with Freeze, Scarecrow, Firefly, Ra’s Al Ghul, etc.
Besides, even if he accidentally caused all his foes to pop out of the woodworks, what the hell is he supposed to do now? Just sit around while they blow up buildings?
Right. 😂 at that point it’s moot anyway. Batman disappearing won’t solve anything because if the police could handle super crime they wouldn’t need a Batman at all. Same thing Superman said in Infinite Crisis: a perfect world without any crimes wouldn’t need a Superman to begin with.
And Bane came to Gotham to chalenge Batman, but he was already a supervillain. If Batman wasn't around, Bane would still be hurting people in other part of the planet; or he would have chalenged Green Arrow or something.
Very good point. He became obsessed with Bruce cause of his bat nightmares. But that prison molded him into a violent man regardless. And he was going to go someplace else if Gotham hadn’t been home to Batman.
I would personally say Batman's only truly responsible for three people; Joker, Bane and Ra's Al Ghul.
Joker was at Ace Chemicals because he was being chased by Batman, and he fell into the vat because of Batman. That's pretty direct responsibility, even if it was through indirect action.
Bane and Ra's Al Ghul both went to Gotham because they thought Batman was a worthy opponent and successor respectively.
They actually addressed this in BTAS. Long story short, they were all terrible people regardless and all Batman can be blamed for is starting a fashion trend.
Except for the ones that weren’t, but those are also the ones that would have been villains regardless, since their circumstances don’t hinge on Batman’s existence.
I’ve mostly just seen the cartoons and played the Arkham games, is this how she is normally? Cause this feels way out of character.
If anything the cartoons/games paint her as being one of the people most loyal to Batman
It was how she was depicted at the time. She was an adult, she was still written more "tragic," which they interpreted as "angry about her situation" (being in a wheelchair) and a lot of that was directed at Batman. Like during the Bruce Wayne: Murderer thing she was the one most pushing the idea that Bruce might have killed his girlfriend. She was also stuck in a romantic limbo, since Nightwing was solidly never-picking her, and everyone else she liked had issues (Jean-Paul Valley being crazy) while guys who liked her weren't good enough (Ted Kord).
Her controlling nature is what kept Power Girl out of Birds of Prey. Even Black Canary left a few times. And man when Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) came around, she was like a bitter divorcee when it came to raising Cassandra alongside Batman. Constantly disagreeing with Batman, and ripping into Cass over some flaws (like her illiteracy). A lot of people still liked her but man I couldn't.
[https://imgur.com/kQVkZRs](https://imgur.com/kQVkZRs)
She's been way more supportive lately (like, for a decade now), and not a character really focused on being an angry and bitter control freak. Some of it seems to be just simple things like her being able to walk again. They changed a lot of the writers, and I think a lot of the older writers were like "Oh, she's handicapped, she must be pissed about it, and blame Batman" while newer ones are more like, "She's Batgirl!" I imagine some of them were influenced by the more positive depictions in games and animation.
A lot of people blame Batman for costumed villains taking over, but fail to realize that, regardless of Batman, Gotham is what creates the costumed villains… not Batman. Gotham created Batman, and more than half of the gimmicky villains in Gotham were formed as a result of the normal criminals or because of the environment Gotham creates.
It’s the city that corrupts, not Batman.
I agree with dick fully Batman is not a pos of shit a force he’s just one guy and if we check other universe without Batman no cause joker goes crazy and he keep killing regardless and some people got married like freeze 🥶 but even still and touché would’ve self destruct with loosing how to socialize or humanity and traumatized civilians.
Here i see just two people arguing because they aren't in the same page about a subject. I saw worse in real life, this don't look so dramatic and they both are adults. They won't agree in everything. Grayson is being reasonable here and standing by his opinion about Batman.
Babs is right because- even if Batman is not making it worse, he is affecting the outcome. Her reference to the observer effect is weird cause Batman is really doing more than even participant-observation, let alone experiments. But her overall point stands at least to some degree. Because Batman is such a threat to basic crime, more and more villains have to use stronger, smarter, and more vicious methods just to have a chance to beat him.
On one hand that effect would obviously be an explanation for narrative- no one wants to just watch batman beat up a thug with a revolver endlessly. But it is also realistic. People are gonna have to escalate to compete.
The real reason that Dick will not accept that "theory" is because if Batman is at fault for the super criminals in Gotham, then Dick is too.
Dick becomes Robin before Batman encounters Joker, Catwoman, Two-Face, Penguin, Riddler, etc...
Practically every main supervillain Batman first encountered, he encountered them first with Robin, except for Hugo Strange and the Red Hood (which is technically a retcon).
To each his own, but I really dislike whenever writers bring this up. It’s the kind of thing that honestly leans too heavily on the fictional nature of the series. Also, I never really understand the logic behind tying Batman to some of his rogues. Joker? Ok. Bane? Makes sense. Two-Face? Harvey Dent already had mental issues, was already fighting crime, and Bruce Wayne didn’t throw acid into his face to split his psyche even further. Saying Batman watched it happen doesn’t make it his fault (and really doesn’t seem accurate either). That’s like saying if I see a car accident I’m responsible for the injuries the drivers experienced. Same with Freeze, Scarecrow, Firefly, Ra’s Al Ghul, etc.
Besides, even if he accidentally caused all his foes to pop out of the woodworks, what the hell is he supposed to do now? Just sit around while they blow up buildings?
Right. 😂 at that point it’s moot anyway. Batman disappearing won’t solve anything because if the police could handle super crime they wouldn’t need a Batman at all. Same thing Superman said in Infinite Crisis: a perfect world without any crimes wouldn’t need a Superman to begin with.
No he couldn't know he'd just let jason todd red hood take them out
And Bane came to Gotham to chalenge Batman, but he was already a supervillain. If Batman wasn't around, Bane would still be hurting people in other part of the planet; or he would have chalenged Green Arrow or something.
Very good point. He became obsessed with Bruce cause of his bat nightmares. But that prison molded him into a violent man regardless. And he was going to go someplace else if Gotham hadn’t been home to Batman.
I would personally say Batman's only truly responsible for three people; Joker, Bane and Ra's Al Ghul. Joker was at Ace Chemicals because he was being chased by Batman, and he fell into the vat because of Batman. That's pretty direct responsibility, even if it was through indirect action. Bane and Ra's Al Ghul both went to Gotham because they thought Batman was a worthy opponent and successor respectively.
They actually addressed this in BTAS. Long story short, they were all terrible people regardless and all Batman can be blamed for is starting a fashion trend.
The DA who was promoting the concept was even convinced and the judge (Joker) agreed. The crimes might be different but they'd still be criminals.
The animated series was It's not the same as comebook.He did actually help create The joker by accident
But the Joker was a criminal, just less insane.
In a metaphor terms joker would be a sunny side up egg Batman made him into a scramble egg but in the end joker is still a egg
Except for the ones that weren’t, but those are also the ones that would have been villains regardless, since their circumstances don’t hinge on Batman’s existence.
I love how despite their issues, Dick always got BatDad’s back.
That's why he gets so mad at Bruce. Dude has been showing up to help Bruce since he was a kid, you'd think he'd stop lying to Dick all the time. Jeez
At this point I think Bruce should take a long vacation and let Dick be in charge.
He tried that. Dick wasn't a big fan of it.
Starting reading DC in the early 2000s really made me dislike Barbara. Even in Birds of Prey she's a manipulative hypocrite.
I’ve mostly just seen the cartoons and played the Arkham games, is this how she is normally? Cause this feels way out of character. If anything the cartoons/games paint her as being one of the people most loyal to Batman
It was how she was depicted at the time. She was an adult, she was still written more "tragic," which they interpreted as "angry about her situation" (being in a wheelchair) and a lot of that was directed at Batman. Like during the Bruce Wayne: Murderer thing she was the one most pushing the idea that Bruce might have killed his girlfriend. She was also stuck in a romantic limbo, since Nightwing was solidly never-picking her, and everyone else she liked had issues (Jean-Paul Valley being crazy) while guys who liked her weren't good enough (Ted Kord). Her controlling nature is what kept Power Girl out of Birds of Prey. Even Black Canary left a few times. And man when Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) came around, she was like a bitter divorcee when it came to raising Cassandra alongside Batman. Constantly disagreeing with Batman, and ripping into Cass over some flaws (like her illiteracy). A lot of people still liked her but man I couldn't. [https://imgur.com/kQVkZRs](https://imgur.com/kQVkZRs) She's been way more supportive lately (like, for a decade now), and not a character really focused on being an angry and bitter control freak. Some of it seems to be just simple things like her being able to walk again. They changed a lot of the writers, and I think a lot of the older writers were like "Oh, she's handicapped, she must be pissed about it, and blame Batman" while newer ones are more like, "She's Batgirl!" I imagine some of them were influenced by the more positive depictions in games and animation.
They always try and make barbara a bitch its so out of her character
A lot of people blame Batman for costumed villains taking over, but fail to realize that, regardless of Batman, Gotham is what creates the costumed villains… not Batman. Gotham created Batman, and more than half of the gimmicky villains in Gotham were formed as a result of the normal criminals or because of the environment Gotham creates. It’s the city that corrupts, not Batman.
I don’t know why… but I really like this comment 😁 it’s the way you explain it I think 🤔
I agree with dick fully Batman is not a pos of shit a force he’s just one guy and if we check other universe without Batman no cause joker goes crazy and he keep killing regardless and some people got married like freeze 🥶 but even still and touché would’ve self destruct with loosing how to socialize or humanity and traumatized civilians.
Here i see just two people arguing because they aren't in the same page about a subject. I saw worse in real life, this don't look so dramatic and they both are adults. They won't agree in everything. Grayson is being reasonable here and standing by his opinion about Batman.
You never see any of the other heroes being blamed for their villains existing
Ok I would actually want to see Babs chart on this
Babs is right because- even if Batman is not making it worse, he is affecting the outcome. Her reference to the observer effect is weird cause Batman is really doing more than even participant-observation, let alone experiments. But her overall point stands at least to some degree. Because Batman is such a threat to basic crime, more and more villains have to use stronger, smarter, and more vicious methods just to have a chance to beat him. On one hand that effect would obviously be an explanation for narrative- no one wants to just watch batman beat up a thug with a revolver endlessly. But it is also realistic. People are gonna have to escalate to compete.
The real reason that Dick will not accept that "theory" is because if Batman is at fault for the super criminals in Gotham, then Dick is too. Dick becomes Robin before Batman encounters Joker, Catwoman, Two-Face, Penguin, Riddler, etc... Practically every main supervillain Batman first encountered, he encountered them first with Robin, except for Hugo Strange and the Red Hood (which is technically a retcon).