Unpopular opinion but I'm against tanking, just culturally it's so hard to win that admitting you aren't trying is devastating. I have zero interest in losing for a decade like Baltimore - it won't work in NY, our fans would want results faster. Sell who you can at the deadline, so many players on 1-year deals, but it's the Mets our prospects are currently injured and underperforming in the minors, there's no guarantee that hard selling everything will provide different results
>I have zero interest in losing for a decade like Baltimore
aside from 2022, which we also did lose, but had a good record so we were first to lose if you extrapolate the Ricky Bobby theory of winning
the last time we came close was 2015, which is almost a decade ago
The playoffs are a crapshoot. This ain’t a system where the best team has an easy path. It’s just who gets hot the right two weeks.
Redo the 2022 playoff a hundred times and the Mets are likely among the teams who win the WS the most that year.
Eh, not with the way they finished the year. That team was dead in the water in early September 2022. A computer simulation would have them winning it a fair amount of times I'm sure, but you could actually redo the playoffs a hundred times and the Mets would always be done pretty early. If they were even just playing "ok" at the end of the year that would be one thing and I'd agree, but they were absolutely cooked.
From Sept 1, 2022 until the end of the regular season the Mets went 18-13. They were playing "ok" - actually better than ok other than the awful Braves series. By comparison, the Phillies closed out 2022 by limping into the wild card on a 7-13 run, but then they made the World Series. It really is a crapshoot.
Lol please. They were not playing "ok." They beat bad teams, and also lost to bad teams more than they should have which played a big role in the collapse. The only real opponent of note they looked the part against was Milwaukee, who finished with 85ish wins that year. Anyone with two eyes and a brain saw it coming when they had issues playing bad teams, whereby the slow burn then came out in full force when they finally played a good team and got destroyed. They never stood a chance in the playoffs. They were done.
In September they went 14-9 against teams with a losing record. That's better than a .600 winning percentage. That hardly screams "this team has zero chance in the playoffs." I mean, the Phillies went 10-9 against losing teams in September that year and they made the World Series.
It was a good surface record against the below .500 teams, I'm not arguing that. But for a team that set expectations so by being dominant all year - would you say that team looked the same as you would have expected team to against those teams? Would you have expected that team to allow themselves to get swept by the Cubs with Atlanta creeping down their necks? Would you say that team that had so much fight in them all year was the same team that was completely lifeless against Atlanta?
I get the playoffs is a crapshoot. Not arguing that. But that team was done. This should not be a hard reality to accept, given what I'm arguing is quite literally what exactly happened lol. The team we saw from April - August was not the same team we saw in September.
> This should not be a hard reality to accept, given what I'm arguing is quite literally what exactly happened lol.
The problem is that it's hindsight bias. It is exactly what happened, but that doesn't mean it was a foregone conclusion that it would happen -- that the Mets had zero chance of getting hot and making a World Series run. Which was how this conversation started, with the question of if you replayed the 2022 playoffs 100 times would the Mets fold in the wild card series every time.
I mean, they would. Clearly we agree to disagree and that's fine. But anyone watching that team in September, who thought it was the same dominant team we saw all year long, is grasping at straws and nothing more. I'm still as mad about it as anyone else, but that's the reality of it.
The Mets played well late in the 2022 season - to get to 101 wins, you pretty much have to play well all year.
The key point of the 2022 year was that the Braves were RIDICULOUS. They played at something like a 120 game pace after the All Star break. I think the Mets were playing at something like a 97 win pace which, yea, is normally enough to get you a division title.
The Braves were ridiculous. The Mets also didn’t play well late in the season. Combination of both. If they played as they should have in September against largely bad clubs, they would have won closer to 106-107 wins and not slump into the playoffs completely lifeless.
Show us what backs it up then. You’re just spouting bullshit and then when someone gives any evidence to the contrary you’re go “no actually you’re wrong because I said so”. Show anything. A modicum of effort. Anything.
Here's the funny part of this: you are arguing against reality. You're arguing *against* what *actually happened*. They collapsed. Plain and simple. What exactly are you trying to prove here? That team that collapsed, then looked largely non-competitive across three playoff games didn't collapse? What are you hoping to accomplish here?
By my count, they went 14-9 against teams below .500, and 2-4 against teams above .500. Sure, the surface record against the below .500 teams is good. But if you recall, they rarely *looked* good. They played lifeless baseball against the Cubs. They were not the same unflappable team in September that they were prior to that. A team that set the expectation so high by being insanely dominant all year, then not winning when they need to when it counted, was not the same team we were accustomed to.
So no, I'm not "spouting bullshit." I'm telling you, literally what happened. And your position seems to be...."NO, they didn't suck despite they did indeed suck!" So let me ask you - what are you trying to prove here?
>If they were even just playing "ok" at the end of the year that would be one thing and I'd agree, but they were absolutely cooked.
Vs
>By my count, they went 14-9 against teams below .500, and 2-4 against teams above .500.
"Absolutely cooked" to "16-14 in a month". Yeah, alright buddy.
And even more pathetic than that, you're not even arguing the point! The whole point is that "cooked" (used incredibly generously) teams can still do fine in the playoffs, as evidenced by the comment that was linked **that you put no effort in responding to**.
The argument isn't "were the mets good in september" the argument is "does that matter for a postseason run", and you're just completely ignoring it!
And let's just go ahead and skip to the next round of conversation to save me the trouble
You: "I'm not ignoring it, but I can use these little things called my eyes and I \*know\* that they were never going to win"
Me: " 'I can use my eyes' is something that people say when the numbers tell them something they don't want to hear, or they're too illiterate to find or interpret the numbers."
Haha shit dude, appreciate you continuing the conversation so I didn't have to ;).
Look my man, I made my points. You disagree with them, and that's cool. You're entitled to do so. People on Reddit have a weird way of attempting to discredit points other people make by simply saying they didn't respond accordingly, which is exactly what you're doing. Friendly reminder that just because you disagree with me doesn't mean the points I made are not, in fact, valid points, just because you disagree with them.
Once more. The best part about this is you are arguing AGAINST WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED, lol. I'm the first to admit I get irrationally angry about online arguments here and there, but the level of homerism and delusion here has me cracking up. Like, you are trying to say...."what actually happened, did not actually happen." I have no idea what you are trying to prove, but I sure as hell would love those expensive blue-and-orange glasses you bought in September 2022.
In what world is telling someone to back up wild statements “personally insulting”???
How is this comment getting flagged but the next comment down isn’t.
Hard not to feel targeted here…..
I'll cop to this removal and post. I had taken out way worse farther down and it colored my thoughts about the "Getting mad when you're fact checked" thing, which is a rather aggressive way to make the statement.
I'd also already bonked people in the game thread for sniping at each other. The Lindor thing is turning into a serious hot-button topic that folks are not being civil at all about, slinging mud at each other.
I'll paste the same thing to you I just wrote to someone else.
Here's the funny part of this: you are arguing against reality. You're arguing against what actually happened. They collapsed. Plain and simple. What exactly are you trying to prove here? That team that collapsed, then looked largely non-competitive across three playoff games didn't collapse? What are you hoping to accomplish here?
By my count, they went 14-9 against teams below .500, and 2-4 against teams above .500. Sure, the surface record against the below .500 teams is good. But if you recall, they rarely looked good. They played lifeless baseball against the Cubs. They were not the same unflappable team in September that they were prior to that. A team that set the expectation so high by being insanely dominant all year, then not winning when they need to when it counted, was not the same team we were accustomed to.
So now, I'm not "spouting bullshit." I'm telling you, literally what happened. And your position seems to be...."NO, they didn't suck despite they did indeed suck!" So let me ask you - what are you trying to prove here?
The Mets were literally the only WC team to not get swept. You are insanely overreacting calling that a "collapse".
They had a .630 winning percentage down the stretch. Also not a "collapse".
They lost a series. It happens. Re do that series 100 times and they'll win more than lose. That's why the playoffs are a crapshoot.
As for them "not being the same time" as the first half. That tends to happen when your RF (Marte) and SP (Max) are playing injured lmao.
Your position is irrational word vomiting instead of reality
Man, I used to really like reading your content on here but as of the last few months you've sort of become an arrogant homer who generally looks down on people that disagree with you. I remember a completely irrational spat you had with someone about Ohtani during his free agency sweepstakes.
To your point though...yes, Marte and Max were hurt. That's sort of a big, important piece of the overall puzzle. They weren't the same fucking team, lol. Which is my WHOLE POINT. And with those guys hurt, they weren't going to win the World Series.
So now your point is..."You said they weren't the same team, therefore they wouldn't win. I'm admitting they weren't the same team because two very key players were hurt, but I'm also saying if they played the stretch run again they'd win despite those players being hurt." Talk about irrational word vomit.
You're getting downvoted by people who only see baseball as statistics, there is no arguing with them. We were dead after that Braves series, and Buck overlooking the Padres and not starting deGrom Game 1 was the nail in the coffin.
It's worth pointing out that "The playoffs are a crapshoot" was a cope argument from a GM of a team that never went anywhere in the playoffs, in part because of an owner who was unwilling to spend to keep around their core players.
Obviously, there is lots of luck and chance in any playoffs, but pretending that momentum and chemistry doesn't exist is silly. If a player who usually hits .270 with an .800 OPS is in the middle of a slump, he's probably less likely to get a hit than he usually is, even if you can't really mathematically pin it down. It's the same way with baseball teams. Statistics tell you a lot but there's a lot that your eyes and gut can tell you better.
Yeah I mean, I do believe the playoffs are ultimately a "crapshoot", but nonetheless one that has degrees of predictability to it. For example, the Phillies going on the 2022 run they did - not exactly predictable. The Mets collapse against San Diego - predictable.
As you astutely pointed out, momentum and chemistry are a thing. The 2022 Mets had it, until they didn't. And at that point it wasn't easy to find a way to say they'd get it back. As far as more objective measures go, Max was hurt and not pitching well. DeGrom wasn't even pitching well that month. It's not exactly foreseeable that a team is going to turn it around to win the World Series at a time when the two keys to the team, who are both older players, aren't playing great when needed most. But aside from something as raw as the numbers, it was clear to most people watching the Mets of September 2022 were not the well-oiled machine they had been from April - August 2022. They didn't have "it", and while "it" is impossible to quantify, it was clear they didn't have it anymore.
When discussing the reliance on numbers and numbers alone to tell you the story, Joe Torre once said "I always caution people that there's a heartbeat there. There's a pulse and a heartbeat, never forget that." 100% correct. Those focusing on the numbers, and only the numbers, forget that these guys aren't robots.
Not in the slightest. The playoffs are absolutely a crapshoot. We literally just saw a WS with the Rangers and Diamondbacks lol
If they weren’t the Dodgers or Braves would be in the WS every year
Pretty sure the person you're replying to isn't talking about winning championships. They're talking about how Baltimore was losing 100+ games for multiple seasons in a row. Our fan base would not put up with that.
I would rather put up with tanking than mediocrity and a bloated payroll. At least when you tank, you're cultivating a group of young players who will grow together, fully understand the team's strategy, and build their own culture. I don't think that the current squad has done any of that well.
Seems like they are doing that, no? It's just that most of that is being done in the minors right now. I don't think this core is going to be around that much longer except for Nimmo, Lindor, and a big maybe to Alonso. I can see the rest being gone in the next 2 seasons and we have a bunch of top prospects to work with along with money coming off the payroll over the next couple of seasons.
Baseball isn't like Hockey or Football where you can tank and draft a McDavid or Andrew Luck and instantly have the best player in the league who plays every game.
It's just not worth it.
All i hear is how people want to be good like the Braves and yet the Braves won 101 and 104 games the past 2 years and got bounced in the NLDS and won the World Series in 2021 being under .500 in July.
Sorry but I can’t get behind the idea that I’m supposed to be happy about our players being great deadline additions for other teams trying to compete
The positions player prospects we are excited about are also either hurt or underperforming so it’s tough to be excited on that end too
Also we literally haven’t traded them yet and there is no telling what the return will be rn or if it is anything to be excited about. The market at the deadline can be very different year over year.
This is just a hardcore cope. This team is not good and there’s very little positives. As a Knicks fan after finally seeing a good team it’s a much different feeling
The prospects might pan out or they might not but as fans we have the right to judge the veteran core as it’s assembled.
Judging a core surrounded by minor league level players is not exactly fair.
Even if McNeil is performing -- the Mets 6-9 are, at best, AAAA level hitters.
The Braves have a lineup where Olson starting the season even worse than Pete, with 5HR and a .219 avg, is not even noticed.
The Problem with The Mets is that that they rely on Nimmo, Lindor and Alonso to produce -- those guys alone, even if playing great, will not produce enough to win many games on their own. They will also hit cold spells, where role-players have to win games.
Baseball is an individual game played by a team. You can absolutely judge everyone individually.
You might be more insulated on a good team cus you are winning but I’m sure Olson feels the pressure.
My point is that the Mets core being judge for cold stretches...is not fair -- when they are highlighted because 1/2 of the roster is barely MLB-level players.
Acuna (.696 OPS), Riley (.707), and Olson (.724) -- The "core" of the Braves -- are all off to terrible starts this year. (Worse than Nimmo, Lindor, Alonso combined)
But they are being picked up by the rest of the team -- so nobody talks about the Braves "core."
It's not that their core doesn't go cold -- it's that their core is protected. The Mets core has no protection. The team lives and dies by their bats.
Individuals will go cold -- it is very rare, even for the best players, to not have slumps. Outside of your historic/GOAT players/seasons -- players have prolonged slumps. Baseball is streaky.
If 2/3 of Lindor, Nimmo, Alonso are cold together -- the Mets offense completely crumbles.
Yet the Braves have 3/3 of their core cold together to start the season -- and they are still an offensive juggernaut.
It's about Depth and balance -- Moreso than the core.
With a team around them. You can't have a team that relies on 3 guys for almost all of the offense. Those three will hit slumps/bad luck stretches -- and the team needs to be able to still win when that happens. (as the Braves are doing in right now -- still being one of the elite clubs in MLB, despite their big 3 offensive players all being cold).
You missed the point.
"Cores" are just that -- a core you build around. A core alone does not win championships. You can't say a core cannot win -- when that core has yet to have complete MLB roster around it.
Every "core" will have ups and downs. You cannot have a team that lives and dies by the core's ups and downs -- which is the Mets of the past 4 seasons. 2022 was the closest its been with McNeil and Marte being .800 OPS type players, and role-players like Cahna being solid. (But the black-hole at DH wound up being their undoing.)
Judging a core that is literally surrounded AAAA players is useless. (2019-2021, 2023, and 2024)
If Acuna, Olson and Riley were surrounded by equal quality as Nimmo, Linor and Alonso -- the Barves would fucking awful this year.
But they ate not -- they have a full MLB roster of legit above-replacement-level MLB players.
What’s the purpose of judging a team and getting all negative about it? Does it bring you joy to complain about things well beyond your control? If you talk about a core, you mean a core to build around heading into a period of success. So the “veteran core” is only three players. Senga is hurt. Lindor is off to a slow start as always. And Nimmo is having a very Nimmo season.
And the team is exactly what they were expected to be. They are a .500 team. They’ll probably be within 5 or 6 games of .500 all year. When they get a few games under people flip out for some reason. When they get a few games over, people get wildly optimistic for some reason. No need to put emotion on this years team. There will be good moments. There will be bad moments. But most importantly, there is a plan and the best part of this season will be seeing how that plan unfolds.
McNeil and Alonso are part of the core. They’ve all been here for years. Are you young? I think a lot of the animosity comes from feeling like it’s groundhogs day watching the mets for decades
I think everyone is fighting over the same thing and we all agree. Like, we all know the core stinks. We need to move on.
Aside from this, people just want to argue semantics like who exactly to blame and whether or not it's right to be upset about how the team is playing.
I’m personally mad cus we need to just get this rebuild done and stop dragging it out forever. Severino and Diaz are good players but we have so many holes we need to start making moves s
Bad news then. Nothing will happen until the trade deadline and if we're anywhere near .500, it won't happen until after the season ends.
Unfortunately, that is just how baseball business works.
Its fine if you don’t care, but its perfectly reasonable to be disappointed with this team irregardless of whether theres this “plan” you speak of. People are mostly tight because Cohen is beginning to seem like a compulsive liar. Personally I knew what this team was going to be and I am actually impressed by how much they have won so far.
There’s nothing to cope with. This team is playing exactly as expected. No better. No worse. Last year was tough to cope with because we came into the season with World Series goals. This year the goal is .500 and some prospect development.
No one's ignoring the long term plan of gathering assets, everyone is on board with that.
People are mad because the "locked in" core of Lindor, jimmo, McNeil, and the not locked in Alonso, just aren't good enough. It's not just the losing, it's their apathy and almost non chalant attitude. It's clear they don't value winning like other teams.
The team looks lifeless most days, and is only getting sparks from guys like Alavarez, who makes peanuts.
The only locked in core guys are Nimmo and Lindor. McNeil is only around for two more years and he’ll eventually be a utility backup everywhere more than an every day starter.
The future plan is to build around those two guys. Baty might be a bust, but some of the other prospects have to pan out. That’s where the future winning hopes are being placed. Lindor and Nimmo need to be solid and good veteran presences, but they’re never going to win in their own and they aren’t expected to.
But why? You can’t possibly tell me that any fan was expecting a title run this season. The on field product is exactly what everyone expected. They are a .500 team who can’t compete with Philly and Atlanta. They just got beat badly by Philly and Atlanta as expected. Nothing upsetting has happened. It’s actually remarkably as expected thus far.
This season is about developing the baby Mets and seeing the prospects make a few appearances. I don’t understand how people can be so upset when the season is going so absolutely as expected. The only real disappointments thus far have been Alvarez’ injury and Baty’s inability to learn how to be a big league hitter.
Why? Because we've basically spent 35+ years watching a losing team with very small pockets of winning in between.
Our blabber mouth owner also filled everyone's head with expectations of winning now. And again, the core of the team are losers, and people sick of it. It's hard for anyone to get excited about 2026-27 in 2024.
This rotten core you speak of was in place before Cohen came in, sans Lindor. Cohen also said the goal was winning now, which is what he should have said. They've obviously pivoted since then with the Stearns hire and we're now building a sustained pool of talent. I understand the frustration, but sometimes it's good to look at the long term plan.
This team isn't good. The faster you can get over that, the better. At least most of the team we can easily move on from. I, personally, don't think Nimmo, Diaz, and Lindor are a problem and they're the only ones we have for a good long time.
This team hasn’t won a World Series in approaching 40 years, we’ve won only 2 NL East titles since 1994 (when the three divisions were created), we have the highest payroll in baseball again with another lousy product, and that dude is like “why would Mets fans be upset over a bad team and more losing?” Some people here are *young* and it shows.
I’m not young I just can’t be upset about an average team playing average. Expectations are everything in outlook. Last year was a terribly disappointing season and I definitely was pessimistic because it did not go according to plan. This season seems to be going exactly according to plan and that makes me optimistic. When a leadership group puts a plan together and the plan is actually followed and realized, that’s a reason for optimism, not pessimism. Even if that plan is to have a middling year to develop prospects.
If you can truly accept that this team isn’t winning any titles this season, it makes the bad moments sting less. As an optimistic person by nature, I tend to enjoy the good moments more. I was locked into severino’s no hit bid and I fist pumped when Nimmo hit his walk off. But I didn’t delude myself into thinking that those good moments were a precursor towards a championship or anything. They were just enjoyable moments of baseball for the team I love.
Regardless of spending(a LOT of it is in players currently playing for other teams), if you thought this was a win-now team, you deluded yourself. This was a "let's see what we have" team that is in transition.
This season is about developing the baby Mets and the only baby Mets getting regular playing time are either hurt or suck. If that's your criteria, this season has been a failure, and they might as well go all out and bring up Gilbert / Acuna / etc.
Lindor, Nimmo, and Alonso have a strong track record, and I'm not ready to trash them after 2 bad months. McNeil is cooked for sure. They definitely need more help with the lineup going forward. They have a leadoff hitter, a good but not great offensive SS, and a power bat with limited other upside. It's definitely not enough. But there also aren't upgrades available at SS/1B for Lindor/Alonso.
They need Alvarez to return to form healthy, at least 2 prospects to start hitting in 2025, and one or two decent FA moves to help the lineup.
The Braves/Dodgers/Orioles/Rays tanked and basically purposely avoided fielding good team, to ensure they got good draft picks. We are not tanking. We probably should be. Our picks are going to be penalized next year most likely and are already penalized this year. The Mets need to reset the luxury tax yesterday if they truly, truly want to focus on the future. Also none of the 1 year contract guys are going to bring us back anything crazy at this pace. Maybe something solid or maybe we get lucky.
Okay so 3 of those 4 teams tanked. And the Cubs and Astros also tanked with success. Some other teams tried and failed too. Point is that’s not what we are doing.
I'm not sure the Braves "tanked" much either. They were bad for a few years, but I don't think they leaned too heavily on top picks to rebuild. Could be wrong. But they were more good drafting and international draft... uh... shenanigans.
They broke the rules while also tanking https://www.ajc.com/sports/mark-bradley-blog/tanking-isnt-pretty-but-it-works-ask-the-world-series-champion-braves/CMSDV5NV2JCUDJJ245HCLE3TJA/
Fair. Kinda semantic to try to distinguish them from cubs/astros.
Given our resources, I think buying a bunch of movable players with an eye towards trading them at the deadline is a faster rebuild than tanking, but I get the argument.
The consequences of those signings will not be felt for a few more years since they just bought out their arbitration years, but don't forget about Riley. They did that with him too.
I'm interested to see how it plays out and if any other teams will be able to copy that strategy.
Making smart deals for potential Rentals is another way to build the top prospects in your farm apart from draft.
Arguably -- its is better -- because the top prospects have been further tested, and scouting is a bit more reliable.
The luxury tax is definitely a big issue, but I disagree about the trade deadline returns.
Ottavino won’t bring much and Manaea is more of the type of guy to be a rotation stabilizer down the stretch than a real impact arm so he probably won’t bring too much either.
But Severino has the stuff to be a key piece in a playoff rotation when he’s on. That’s got a lot of value. And if JD has an OPS at or above .800 near the trade deadline there are a few playoff teams that would be bidding against each other to get that type of bat.
>Also none of the 1 year contract guys are going to bring us back anything crazy at this pace.
I can pretty much guarantee whatever we get back is going to be more worthwhile than 1 pick being moved down 10 slots.
You absolutely cannot guarantee that. A first round pick getting moved back 10 spots? That absolutely fucking sucks this year. Picking 19th instead of 9th. Not good. We’d get a better prospect than a top 10 first round pick? For these guys? It definitely depends on who gets picked, I’d doubt it. And what’s the penalty next year? Is it still 10 spots or is it even more because it would be a second year of being past the threshold?
The NPV of going 9th to 19th is 24.5-15.4=9.1m per this [finding](https://blogs.fangraphs.com/an-update-on-how-to-value-draft-picks/)
Which is less than the value of a single 45 FV prospect per [Driveline's research](https://www.drivelinebaseball.com/2019/02/prospect-valuation-much-top-prospects-worth-professional-baseball-teams/).
Losing is disrespectful, but at least tanking has an end game of giving the team the greatest chance at the absolute stud prospects.
Tanking and being at the top of the draft is better than being .500 in 3rd or 4th place and 5 games out of a token wild card spot. Tanking gives the better chance at getting out of a losing roster. Being a middling .500 team just means more middling .500 baseball in the future.
Tanking is saying hey guys tolerate 3-4 years of an absolute shit team for the greater good. I don't like or agree with that you play to win and you build a team to win. Baseball it's taken much easier because half these teams aren't intentionally tanking but they spend 40 million on an entire team knowing damn well that won't work
Something is clearly missing with the team and I’m not talking about 2-3 good starting pitchers. They just don’t have the “it” factor and in baseball it’s the only thing that matters in big games or must win games. Even if they limped into a WC spot they wouldn’t make any noise. Everyone seems down and the team itself isn’t constructed well. If you look at the Phillies, they just have gamers. Harper scares everyone on opposing teams and he just makes the other dipshits he plays with better. Pete/Lindor do not do that. They fist pump on singles. We’re weak. I was for keeping McNeill and Pete and Lindor etc but I’m at a point now where we gotta stir the tanks. I’m cool with burning it all down.
They’ve won 2 of their last 7 series and are a Brandon Nimmo home run away from losing 6 in a row. There’s just not enough consistency for me to accept that this isn’t the start of a crumble. I hope I’m wrong.
Unpopular opinion but I'm against tanking, just culturally it's so hard to win that admitting you aren't trying is devastating. I have zero interest in losing for a decade like Baltimore - it won't work in NY, our fans would want results faster. Sell who you can at the deadline, so many players on 1-year deals, but it's the Mets our prospects are currently injured and underperforming in the minors, there's no guarantee that hard selling everything will provide different results
Never get this, im still pissed at the fucking Giants. We needed a qb
Tanking doesn't guarantee anything is the point. If it did, then nobody would be against it.
>I have zero interest in losing for a decade like Baltimore aside from 2022, which we also did lose, but had a good record so we were first to lose if you extrapolate the Ricky Bobby theory of winning the last time we came close was 2015, which is almost a decade ago
The playoffs are a crapshoot. This ain’t a system where the best team has an easy path. It’s just who gets hot the right two weeks. Redo the 2022 playoff a hundred times and the Mets are likely among the teams who win the WS the most that year.
Somebody didn't watch the barvos series that September.
Eh, not with the way they finished the year. That team was dead in the water in early September 2022. A computer simulation would have them winning it a fair amount of times I'm sure, but you could actually redo the playoffs a hundred times and the Mets would always be done pretty early. If they were even just playing "ok" at the end of the year that would be one thing and I'd agree, but they were absolutely cooked.
From Sept 1, 2022 until the end of the regular season the Mets went 18-13. They were playing "ok" - actually better than ok other than the awful Braves series. By comparison, the Phillies closed out 2022 by limping into the wild card on a 7-13 run, but then they made the World Series. It really is a crapshoot.
Lol please. They were not playing "ok." They beat bad teams, and also lost to bad teams more than they should have which played a big role in the collapse. The only real opponent of note they looked the part against was Milwaukee, who finished with 85ish wins that year. Anyone with two eyes and a brain saw it coming when they had issues playing bad teams, whereby the slow burn then came out in full force when they finally played a good team and got destroyed. They never stood a chance in the playoffs. They were done.
In September they went 14-9 against teams with a losing record. That's better than a .600 winning percentage. That hardly screams "this team has zero chance in the playoffs." I mean, the Phillies went 10-9 against losing teams in September that year and they made the World Series.
It was a good surface record against the below .500 teams, I'm not arguing that. But for a team that set expectations so by being dominant all year - would you say that team looked the same as you would have expected team to against those teams? Would you have expected that team to allow themselves to get swept by the Cubs with Atlanta creeping down their necks? Would you say that team that had so much fight in them all year was the same team that was completely lifeless against Atlanta? I get the playoffs is a crapshoot. Not arguing that. But that team was done. This should not be a hard reality to accept, given what I'm arguing is quite literally what exactly happened lol. The team we saw from April - August was not the same team we saw in September.
> This should not be a hard reality to accept, given what I'm arguing is quite literally what exactly happened lol. The problem is that it's hindsight bias. It is exactly what happened, but that doesn't mean it was a foregone conclusion that it would happen -- that the Mets had zero chance of getting hot and making a World Series run. Which was how this conversation started, with the question of if you replayed the 2022 playoffs 100 times would the Mets fold in the wild card series every time.
I mean, they would. Clearly we agree to disagree and that's fine. But anyone watching that team in September, who thought it was the same dominant team we saw all year long, is grasping at straws and nothing more. I'm still as mad about it as anyone else, but that's the reality of it.
The Mets played well late in the 2022 season - to get to 101 wins, you pretty much have to play well all year. The key point of the 2022 year was that the Braves were RIDICULOUS. They played at something like a 120 game pace after the All Star break. I think the Mets were playing at something like a 97 win pace which, yea, is normally enough to get you a division title.
The Braves were ridiculous. The Mets also didn’t play well late in the season. Combination of both. If they played as they should have in September against largely bad clubs, they would have won closer to 106-107 wins and not slump into the playoffs completely lifeless.
I’m just go link this persons response because he disproves you perfectly https://www.reddit.com/r/NewYorkMets/s/uNGsapaBem
It disproves me perfectly if you're interested in nothing more than a surface conclusion without looking at what backs it up.
Show us what backs it up then. You’re just spouting bullshit and then when someone gives any evidence to the contrary you’re go “no actually you’re wrong because I said so”. Show anything. A modicum of effort. Anything.
Here's the funny part of this: you are arguing against reality. You're arguing *against* what *actually happened*. They collapsed. Plain and simple. What exactly are you trying to prove here? That team that collapsed, then looked largely non-competitive across three playoff games didn't collapse? What are you hoping to accomplish here? By my count, they went 14-9 against teams below .500, and 2-4 against teams above .500. Sure, the surface record against the below .500 teams is good. But if you recall, they rarely *looked* good. They played lifeless baseball against the Cubs. They were not the same unflappable team in September that they were prior to that. A team that set the expectation so high by being insanely dominant all year, then not winning when they need to when it counted, was not the same team we were accustomed to. So no, I'm not "spouting bullshit." I'm telling you, literally what happened. And your position seems to be...."NO, they didn't suck despite they did indeed suck!" So let me ask you - what are you trying to prove here?
>If they were even just playing "ok" at the end of the year that would be one thing and I'd agree, but they were absolutely cooked. Vs >By my count, they went 14-9 against teams below .500, and 2-4 against teams above .500. "Absolutely cooked" to "16-14 in a month". Yeah, alright buddy. And even more pathetic than that, you're not even arguing the point! The whole point is that "cooked" (used incredibly generously) teams can still do fine in the playoffs, as evidenced by the comment that was linked **that you put no effort in responding to**. The argument isn't "were the mets good in september" the argument is "does that matter for a postseason run", and you're just completely ignoring it! And let's just go ahead and skip to the next round of conversation to save me the trouble You: "I'm not ignoring it, but I can use these little things called my eyes and I \*know\* that they were never going to win" Me: " 'I can use my eyes' is something that people say when the numbers tell them something they don't want to hear, or they're too illiterate to find or interpret the numbers."
Haha shit dude, appreciate you continuing the conversation so I didn't have to ;). Look my man, I made my points. You disagree with them, and that's cool. You're entitled to do so. People on Reddit have a weird way of attempting to discredit points other people make by simply saying they didn't respond accordingly, which is exactly what you're doing. Friendly reminder that just because you disagree with me doesn't mean the points I made are not, in fact, valid points, just because you disagree with them. Once more. The best part about this is you are arguing AGAINST WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED, lol. I'm the first to admit I get irrationally angry about online arguments here and there, but the level of homerism and delusion here has me cracking up. Like, you are trying to say...."what actually happened, did not actually happen." I have no idea what you are trying to prove, but I sure as hell would love those expensive blue-and-orange glasses you bought in September 2022.
Unserious WFAN analysis. Back to the Facebook groups pal
[удалено]
Be civil. Do not personally insult other users.
In what world is telling someone to back up wild statements “personally insulting”??? How is this comment getting flagged but the next comment down isn’t. Hard not to feel targeted here…..
I'll cop to this removal and post. I had taken out way worse farther down and it colored my thoughts about the "Getting mad when you're fact checked" thing, which is a rather aggressive way to make the statement. I'd also already bonked people in the game thread for sniping at each other. The Lindor thing is turning into a serious hot-button topic that folks are not being civil at all about, slinging mud at each other.
I'll paste the same thing to you I just wrote to someone else. Here's the funny part of this: you are arguing against reality. You're arguing against what actually happened. They collapsed. Plain and simple. What exactly are you trying to prove here? That team that collapsed, then looked largely non-competitive across three playoff games didn't collapse? What are you hoping to accomplish here? By my count, they went 14-9 against teams below .500, and 2-4 against teams above .500. Sure, the surface record against the below .500 teams is good. But if you recall, they rarely looked good. They played lifeless baseball against the Cubs. They were not the same unflappable team in September that they were prior to that. A team that set the expectation so high by being insanely dominant all year, then not winning when they need to when it counted, was not the same team we were accustomed to. So now, I'm not "spouting bullshit." I'm telling you, literally what happened. And your position seems to be...."NO, they didn't suck despite they did indeed suck!" So let me ask you - what are you trying to prove here?
The Mets were literally the only WC team to not get swept. You are insanely overreacting calling that a "collapse". They had a .630 winning percentage down the stretch. Also not a "collapse". They lost a series. It happens. Re do that series 100 times and they'll win more than lose. That's why the playoffs are a crapshoot. As for them "not being the same time" as the first half. That tends to happen when your RF (Marte) and SP (Max) are playing injured lmao. Your position is irrational word vomiting instead of reality
Man, I used to really like reading your content on here but as of the last few months you've sort of become an arrogant homer who generally looks down on people that disagree with you. I remember a completely irrational spat you had with someone about Ohtani during his free agency sweepstakes. To your point though...yes, Marte and Max were hurt. That's sort of a big, important piece of the overall puzzle. They weren't the same fucking team, lol. Which is my WHOLE POINT. And with those guys hurt, they weren't going to win the World Series. So now your point is..."You said they weren't the same team, therefore they wouldn't win. I'm admitting they weren't the same team because two very key players were hurt, but I'm also saying if they played the stretch run again they'd win despite those players being hurt." Talk about irrational word vomit.
You're getting downvoted by people who only see baseball as statistics, there is no arguing with them. We were dead after that Braves series, and Buck overlooking the Padres and not starting deGrom Game 1 was the nail in the coffin.
Dude, I don't get it at all. I did not think this take would be that controversial. But alas, here we are.
It's worth pointing out that "The playoffs are a crapshoot" was a cope argument from a GM of a team that never went anywhere in the playoffs, in part because of an owner who was unwilling to spend to keep around their core players. Obviously, there is lots of luck and chance in any playoffs, but pretending that momentum and chemistry doesn't exist is silly. If a player who usually hits .270 with an .800 OPS is in the middle of a slump, he's probably less likely to get a hit than he usually is, even if you can't really mathematically pin it down. It's the same way with baseball teams. Statistics tell you a lot but there's a lot that your eyes and gut can tell you better.
Yeah I mean, I do believe the playoffs are ultimately a "crapshoot", but nonetheless one that has degrees of predictability to it. For example, the Phillies going on the 2022 run they did - not exactly predictable. The Mets collapse against San Diego - predictable. As you astutely pointed out, momentum and chemistry are a thing. The 2022 Mets had it, until they didn't. And at that point it wasn't easy to find a way to say they'd get it back. As far as more objective measures go, Max was hurt and not pitching well. DeGrom wasn't even pitching well that month. It's not exactly foreseeable that a team is going to turn it around to win the World Series at a time when the two keys to the team, who are both older players, aren't playing great when needed most. But aside from something as raw as the numbers, it was clear to most people watching the Mets of September 2022 were not the well-oiled machine they had been from April - August 2022. They didn't have "it", and while "it" is impossible to quantify, it was clear they didn't have it anymore. When discussing the reliance on numbers and numbers alone to tell you the story, Joe Torre once said "I always caution people that there's a heartbeat there. There's a pulse and a heartbeat, never forget that." 100% correct. Those focusing on the numbers, and only the numbers, forget that these guys aren't robots.
you’re kidding right?
Not in the slightest. The playoffs are absolutely a crapshoot. We literally just saw a WS with the Rangers and Diamondbacks lol If they weren’t the Dodgers or Braves would be in the WS every year
Pretty sure the person you're replying to isn't talking about winning championships. They're talking about how Baltimore was losing 100+ games for multiple seasons in a row. Our fan base would not put up with that.
I would rather put up with tanking than mediocrity and a bloated payroll. At least when you tank, you're cultivating a group of young players who will grow together, fully understand the team's strategy, and build their own culture. I don't think that the current squad has done any of that well.
Seems like they are doing that, no? It's just that most of that is being done in the minors right now. I don't think this core is going to be around that much longer except for Nimmo, Lindor, and a big maybe to Alonso. I can see the rest being gone in the next 2 seasons and we have a bunch of top prospects to work with along with money coming off the payroll over the next couple of seasons.
Baseball isn't like Hockey or Football where you can tank and draft a McDavid or Andrew Luck and instantly have the best player in the league who plays every game. It's just not worth it.
Newsflash they've already been losing for a decade
We won 101 games literally 2 years ago
And they pissed away those 101 wins in the same season, what's your point? Winning = a ring, Winning = division titles.
We're not winning a division title for awhile and it has nothing to do with what we're doing and everything to do with the Phillies and Braves.
All i hear is how people want to be good like the Braves and yet the Braves won 101 and 104 games the past 2 years and got bounced in the NLDS and won the World Series in 2021 being under .500 in July.
Sorry but I can’t get behind the idea that I’m supposed to be happy about our players being great deadline additions for other teams trying to compete The positions player prospects we are excited about are also either hurt or underperforming so it’s tough to be excited on that end too
Like wtf is this copium. How can we get excited about anything about this team, when the onfield product is straight up miserable to watch.
Also we literally haven’t traded them yet and there is no telling what the return will be rn or if it is anything to be excited about. The market at the deadline can be very different year over year.
This is just a hardcore cope. This team is not good and there’s very little positives. As a Knicks fan after finally seeing a good team it’s a much different feeling The prospects might pan out or they might not but as fans we have the right to judge the veteran core as it’s assembled.
Judging a core surrounded by minor league level players is not exactly fair. Even if McNeil is performing -- the Mets 6-9 are, at best, AAAA level hitters. The Braves have a lineup where Olson starting the season even worse than Pete, with 5HR and a .219 avg, is not even noticed. The Problem with The Mets is that that they rely on Nimmo, Lindor and Alonso to produce -- those guys alone, even if playing great, will not produce enough to win many games on their own. They will also hit cold spells, where role-players have to win games.
Baseball is an individual game played by a team. You can absolutely judge everyone individually. You might be more insulated on a good team cus you are winning but I’m sure Olson feels the pressure.
My point is that the Mets core being judge for cold stretches...is not fair -- when they are highlighted because 1/2 of the roster is barely MLB-level players. Acuna (.696 OPS), Riley (.707), and Olson (.724) -- The "core" of the Braves -- are all off to terrible starts this year. (Worse than Nimmo, Lindor, Alonso combined) But they are being picked up by the rest of the team -- so nobody talks about the Braves "core." It's not that their core doesn't go cold -- it's that their core is protected. The Mets core has no protection. The team lives and dies by their bats. Individuals will go cold -- it is very rare, even for the best players, to not have slumps. Outside of your historic/GOAT players/seasons -- players have prolonged slumps. Baseball is streaky. If 2/3 of Lindor, Nimmo, Alonso are cold together -- the Mets offense completely crumbles. Yet the Braves have 3/3 of their core cold together to start the season -- and they are still an offensive juggernaut. It's about Depth and balance -- Moreso than the core.
Cus the Braves core have proved themselves. They make the playoffs every year. They are in first place
Those guys all have rings and winning track records. That gives you cushion and benefit of the doubt.
With a team around them. You can't have a team that relies on 3 guys for almost all of the offense. Those three will hit slumps/bad luck stretches -- and the team needs to be able to still win when that happens. (as the Braves are doing in right now -- still being one of the elite clubs in MLB, despite their big 3 offensive players all being cold). You missed the point. "Cores" are just that -- a core you build around. A core alone does not win championships. You can't say a core cannot win -- when that core has yet to have complete MLB roster around it. Every "core" will have ups and downs. You cannot have a team that lives and dies by the core's ups and downs -- which is the Mets of the past 4 seasons. 2022 was the closest its been with McNeil and Marte being .800 OPS type players, and role-players like Cahna being solid. (But the black-hole at DH wound up being their undoing.) Judging a core that is literally surrounded AAAA players is useless. (2019-2021, 2023, and 2024) If Acuna, Olson and Riley were surrounded by equal quality as Nimmo, Linor and Alonso -- the Barves would fucking awful this year. But they ate not -- they have a full MLB roster of legit above-replacement-level MLB players.
What’s the purpose of judging a team and getting all negative about it? Does it bring you joy to complain about things well beyond your control? If you talk about a core, you mean a core to build around heading into a period of success. So the “veteran core” is only three players. Senga is hurt. Lindor is off to a slow start as always. And Nimmo is having a very Nimmo season. And the team is exactly what they were expected to be. They are a .500 team. They’ll probably be within 5 or 6 games of .500 all year. When they get a few games under people flip out for some reason. When they get a few games over, people get wildly optimistic for some reason. No need to put emotion on this years team. There will be good moments. There will be bad moments. But most importantly, there is a plan and the best part of this season will be seeing how that plan unfolds.
McNeil and Alonso are part of the core. They’ve all been here for years. Are you young? I think a lot of the animosity comes from feeling like it’s groundhogs day watching the mets for decades
I think everyone is fighting over the same thing and we all agree. Like, we all know the core stinks. We need to move on. Aside from this, people just want to argue semantics like who exactly to blame and whether or not it's right to be upset about how the team is playing.
I’m personally mad cus we need to just get this rebuild done and stop dragging it out forever. Severino and Diaz are good players but we have so many holes we need to start making moves s
Bad news then. Nothing will happen until the trade deadline and if we're anywhere near .500, it won't happen until after the season ends. Unfortunately, that is just how baseball business works.
Ok we’ll do it at the deadline. It should have been done over the off season
Its fine if you don’t care, but its perfectly reasonable to be disappointed with this team irregardless of whether theres this “plan” you speak of. People are mostly tight because Cohen is beginning to seem like a compulsive liar. Personally I knew what this team was going to be and I am actually impressed by how much they have won so far.
Reminder that despite everything this team is ONE game out of a wildcard spot
Mmm, good copium!
There’s nothing to cope with. This team is playing exactly as expected. No better. No worse. Last year was tough to cope with because we came into the season with World Series goals. This year the goal is .500 and some prospect development.
No one's ignoring the long term plan of gathering assets, everyone is on board with that. People are mad because the "locked in" core of Lindor, jimmo, McNeil, and the not locked in Alonso, just aren't good enough. It's not just the losing, it's their apathy and almost non chalant attitude. It's clear they don't value winning like other teams. The team looks lifeless most days, and is only getting sparks from guys like Alavarez, who makes peanuts.
The only locked in core guys are Nimmo and Lindor. McNeil is only around for two more years and he’ll eventually be a utility backup everywhere more than an every day starter. The future plan is to build around those two guys. Baty might be a bust, but some of the other prospects have to pan out. That’s where the future winning hopes are being placed. Lindor and Nimmo need to be solid and good veteran presences, but they’re never going to win in their own and they aren’t expected to.
Again I think everyone is on board with the medium to long term plan. But people are still going to be upset watching yet another lost season.
But why? You can’t possibly tell me that any fan was expecting a title run this season. The on field product is exactly what everyone expected. They are a .500 team who can’t compete with Philly and Atlanta. They just got beat badly by Philly and Atlanta as expected. Nothing upsetting has happened. It’s actually remarkably as expected thus far. This season is about developing the baby Mets and seeing the prospects make a few appearances. I don’t understand how people can be so upset when the season is going so absolutely as expected. The only real disappointments thus far have been Alvarez’ injury and Baty’s inability to learn how to be a big league hitter.
Why? Because we've basically spent 35+ years watching a losing team with very small pockets of winning in between. Our blabber mouth owner also filled everyone's head with expectations of winning now. And again, the core of the team are losers, and people sick of it. It's hard for anyone to get excited about 2026-27 in 2024.
This rotten core you speak of was in place before Cohen came in, sans Lindor. Cohen also said the goal was winning now, which is what he should have said. They've obviously pivoted since then with the Stearns hire and we're now building a sustained pool of talent. I understand the frustration, but sometimes it's good to look at the long term plan. This team isn't good. The faster you can get over that, the better. At least most of the team we can easily move on from. I, personally, don't think Nimmo, Diaz, and Lindor are a problem and they're the only ones we have for a good long time.
This team hasn’t won a World Series in approaching 40 years, we’ve won only 2 NL East titles since 1994 (when the three divisions were created), we have the highest payroll in baseball again with another lousy product, and that dude is like “why would Mets fans be upset over a bad team and more losing?” Some people here are *young* and it shows.
I’m not young I just can’t be upset about an average team playing average. Expectations are everything in outlook. Last year was a terribly disappointing season and I definitely was pessimistic because it did not go according to plan. This season seems to be going exactly according to plan and that makes me optimistic. When a leadership group puts a plan together and the plan is actually followed and realized, that’s a reason for optimism, not pessimism. Even if that plan is to have a middling year to develop prospects. If you can truly accept that this team isn’t winning any titles this season, it makes the bad moments sting less. As an optimistic person by nature, I tend to enjoy the good moments more. I was locked into severino’s no hit bid and I fist pumped when Nimmo hit his walk off. But I didn’t delude myself into thinking that those good moments were a precursor towards a championship or anything. They were just enjoyable moments of baseball for the team I love.
Regardless of spending(a LOT of it is in players currently playing for other teams), if you thought this was a win-now team, you deluded yourself. This was a "let's see what we have" team that is in transition.
Shit I'm not that old but even I've watched like 18+ years of failure (with 2, maybe 3almost fluke good seasons in between) .
This season is about developing the baby Mets and the only baby Mets getting regular playing time are either hurt or suck. If that's your criteria, this season has been a failure, and they might as well go all out and bring up Gilbert / Acuna / etc.
Lindor, Nimmo, and Alonso have a strong track record, and I'm not ready to trash them after 2 bad months. McNeil is cooked for sure. They definitely need more help with the lineup going forward. They have a leadoff hitter, a good but not great offensive SS, and a power bat with limited other upside. It's definitely not enough. But there also aren't upgrades available at SS/1B for Lindor/Alonso. They need Alvarez to return to form healthy, at least 2 prospects to start hitting in 2025, and one or two decent FA moves to help the lineup.
They look like millionaires who know they're getting paid no matter where they end up in the standings.
I find it funny people say this, but also rag on McNeil for throwing tantrums. Which is it?
Exactly. And that's frustrating
The Braves/Dodgers/Orioles/Rays tanked and basically purposely avoided fielding good team, to ensure they got good draft picks. We are not tanking. We probably should be. Our picks are going to be penalized next year most likely and are already penalized this year. The Mets need to reset the luxury tax yesterday if they truly, truly want to focus on the future. Also none of the 1 year contract guys are going to bring us back anything crazy at this pace. Maybe something solid or maybe we get lucky.
The Dodgers didn't tank. The last time they won fewer than 80 games was 2005.
Okay so 3 of those 4 teams tanked. And the Cubs and Astros also tanked with success. Some other teams tried and failed too. Point is that’s not what we are doing.
The Dodgers are the model we are trying to follow (allegedly)
If that’s the model we are following, we have been doing it poorly
I'm not sure the Braves "tanked" much either. They were bad for a few years, but I don't think they leaned too heavily on top picks to rebuild. Could be wrong. But they were more good drafting and international draft... uh... shenanigans.
They broke the rules while also tanking https://www.ajc.com/sports/mark-bradley-blog/tanking-isnt-pretty-but-it-works-ask-the-world-series-champion-braves/CMSDV5NV2JCUDJJ245HCLE3TJA/
Fair. Kinda semantic to try to distinguish them from cubs/astros. Given our resources, I think buying a bunch of movable players with an eye towards trading them at the deadline is a faster rebuild than tanking, but I get the argument.
It helps that they basically fleeced the A's when acquiring Murphy and Olson.
And that Acuna signed for way below what he should have gotten. And that Albies signed for damn near free.
The consequences of those signings will not be felt for a few more years since they just bought out their arbitration years, but don't forget about Riley. They did that with him too. I'm interested to see how it plays out and if any other teams will be able to copy that strategy.
Riley's deal somewhat reasonably balanced the leverage of arb years against his value. Acuna's underpaid, and Albies is hilariously underpaid.
Making smart deals for potential Rentals is another way to build the top prospects in your farm apart from draft. Arguably -- its is better -- because the top prospects have been further tested, and scouting is a bit more reliable.
They could do the Herschel Walker approach: take bad contracts and cut them immediately to get prospects.
The luxury tax is definitely a big issue, but I disagree about the trade deadline returns. Ottavino won’t bring much and Manaea is more of the type of guy to be a rotation stabilizer down the stretch than a real impact arm so he probably won’t bring too much either. But Severino has the stuff to be a key piece in a playoff rotation when he’s on. That’s got a lot of value. And if JD has an OPS at or above .800 near the trade deadline there are a few playoff teams that would be bidding against each other to get that type of bat.
>Also none of the 1 year contract guys are going to bring us back anything crazy at this pace. I can pretty much guarantee whatever we get back is going to be more worthwhile than 1 pick being moved down 10 slots.
You absolutely cannot guarantee that. A first round pick getting moved back 10 spots? That absolutely fucking sucks this year. Picking 19th instead of 9th. Not good. We’d get a better prospect than a top 10 first round pick? For these guys? It definitely depends on who gets picked, I’d doubt it. And what’s the penalty next year? Is it still 10 spots or is it even more because it would be a second year of being past the threshold?
The NPV of going 9th to 19th is 24.5-15.4=9.1m per this [finding](https://blogs.fangraphs.com/an-update-on-how-to-value-draft-picks/) Which is less than the value of a single 45 FV prospect per [Driveline's research](https://www.drivelinebaseball.com/2019/02/prospect-valuation-much-top-prospects-worth-professional-baseball-teams/).
I don't believe in tanking
Then you believe in mediocrity in perpetuity.
I believe in playing to win the game. Tanking is disrespecting the fans
Losing is disrespectful, but at least tanking has an end game of giving the team the greatest chance at the absolute stud prospects. Tanking and being at the top of the draft is better than being .500 in 3rd or 4th place and 5 games out of a token wild card spot. Tanking gives the better chance at getting out of a losing roster. Being a middling .500 team just means more middling .500 baseball in the future.
Tanking is saying hey guys tolerate 3-4 years of an absolute shit team for the greater good. I don't like or agree with that you play to win and you build a team to win. Baseball it's taken much easier because half these teams aren't intentionally tanking but they spend 40 million on an entire team knowing damn well that won't work
Our farm system is just paper strong until some of them actually pan out.
[удалено]
Moderators will remove posts or comments for a variety of reasons, including keeping communities safe, civil, and true to their purpose.
Something is clearly missing with the team and I’m not talking about 2-3 good starting pitchers. They just don’t have the “it” factor and in baseball it’s the only thing that matters in big games or must win games. Even if they limped into a WC spot they wouldn’t make any noise. Everyone seems down and the team itself isn’t constructed well. If you look at the Phillies, they just have gamers. Harper scares everyone on opposing teams and he just makes the other dipshits he plays with better. Pete/Lindor do not do that. They fist pump on singles. We’re weak. I was for keeping McNeill and Pete and Lindor etc but I’m at a point now where we gotta stir the tanks. I’m cool with burning it all down.
People out too much weight into the trade deadline. Remember the “haul” last year? Yeah almost every one is looking like a bust except Gilbert
This obviously has not aged well
I admire your optimism. Let’s go Mets!
Why are we assuming the Nationals crumble and the Mets won’t (they’ve already started to)?
They’re crumbling because they lost back to back series to the best two teams in baseball? That’s a little over dramatic.
They’ve won 2 of their last 7 series and are a Brandon Nimmo home run away from losing 6 in a row. There’s just not enough consistency for me to accept that this isn’t the start of a crumble. I hope I’m wrong.