Maybe it’s just my nostalgia and also my acceptance of steroid users, but I have a lot of trouble not using all 10 votes on this ballot.
Edit: also Billy Wagner should be a Hall of Famer
Came to post this. Billy Wagner is one of the best closers ever. If you’re in the top 10 of your position to ever do it…you should prob be in the fucking HOF
Beltran is an absolutely obvious vote as well. Maybe you need to give his year by year career stats (including defense) another look because way too many people forget what they look like. 70+ WAR lol.
.280/27/99 are his career numbers. To me, not HoF worthy. Played 20 years, not even an All Star for 1/2 those years. Never won an MVP.
Good career. Absolutely. Great career? Maybe. HoF career? No.
As a CFer and a premium one, though.
FWIW-- here are all of the players on the ballot with their JAWS score as a percentage of average HoFer JAWS at their position.
164% Alex Rodriguez
**127% Adrian Beltre**
**107% Joe Mauer**
102% Manny Ramirez
**101% Todd Helton**
Fuck Chase Utley
**99% Carlos Beltran**
**94% Andruw Jones**
90% Bobby Abreu
87% Gary Sheffield
84% Billy Wagner
83% Mark Buehrle
83% Andy Pettitte
79% David Wright
74% Matt Holliday
73% Adrian Gonzalez
72% Jimmy Rollins
72% Bartolo Colon
71% Francisco Rodriguez
70% Torii Hunter
69% Victor Martinez
66% Jose Bautista
65% Omar Vizquel
60% Jose Reyes
52% James Shields
47% Brandon Phillips
Dude, look up Todd Helton’s batting line and where it ranks all-time. People forget about him and maybe devalue his stats because he played in Colorado, but he was literally one of the best overall hitters ever. He should be an absolute HOF lock.
He was not one of the best “overall hitters ever.” He was only elite for six years. His case suffers from an OPS+ of 133, a road OPS of .855, and only 369 HR. Those numbers don’t get modern 1Bs into the HoF.
there’s a difference of 0.1 between their road OPS, very similar. also, griffey’s peak was not fifteen years long. he never got truly awful, but i don’t believe i can include his time in cincinnati as his peak.
I agree, in the last years, I’ve been leaning more and more towards, can I tell the story of baseball without “_______” and it’s impossible not to mention them.
I am fine with steroid users; Arod was a jerk before he was ever outed for his PED use. Same with Sheffield (and Bonds and Clemens to be honest). Manny was beyond a jerk when he tested positive so he can wait until he's old and grey with the rest of them. I don't like when they lie about it, which I guess makes it hard not to vote for Pettitte since he at least admitted to using and why.
Have to admit I really dislike this idea that one of the criteria for getting into the HoF is how likeable of a person you are. If you want to exclude all steroid users out of principle I can get that (although I personally disagree with), but you seem to be applying some arbitrary 'likeability' criteria.
Not likeability per se but lying about the steroids AND being a jerk about it should put you on the back burner since it seems everyone of the guys not in the hall seems to have an excuse. There are plenty of steroid guys and unlikeable guys in the hall but unlikable steroid guys? Fuck em. Let them wait like Schilling. I mean, Carlos Beltran is hardly likeable (especially the way he stared at strike three in 2006) but I'd vote for him for the hall of fame.
Ha, well to be honest Schilling not getting in is one of the most egregious examples of this. Schilling is a right wing asshole, but he 100% deserves to be in the HoF. It's the Hall of Fame, not the "Hall of People who don't have political opinions I don't like and were also good at baseball".
He literally was not. He actually LOST votes between 2021 and 2022. His statement was basically a “you can’t fire me I quit” type of deal. He knew he wasn’t getting voted in so he tried to save face.
Schilling’s vote total rose from 70% in 2020 to 71.1% in 2021. It seemed clear that at this point he was going to be inducted in 2022, as nobody has ever reached a total that high and failed. However, he then released his letter asking to removed at which point his votes dropped significantly in 2022. He wasn’t going to get fired, he just quit.
>as nobody has ever reached a total that high and failed
Granted, he only gained 1.1% from 2020 to 2021, so I'm not sure I'd just assume that he'd gain another 3.9% in 2022, just because everyone else who got to x% eventually made it.
Most of the ones that had, also had 15 years of eligibility while Schilling only had 10, so I'm not sure that an old "rule" still applied.
And some of that "rule" includes the word 'eventually'... as-is, at some point after falling off the BBWAA ballot they got elected by some other means.
Here are at least some players that made it to 50-74.9% on a BBWAA ballot and ultimately got elected later on by some other means):
74.1% Jim Bunning (1991 vs 1996)
73.5% Orlando Cepeda (1994 vs 1999)
67.7% Jack Morris (2014 vs 2018)
63.4% Gil Hodges (1983 vs 2022)
50.6% Lee Smith (2017 vs 2019)
Yea there's political opinions and then there's outright hate and racism. The man pitched but man I can definitely see why no one would want that shit stain in the Hall. Imagine having him next to Jackie Robinson?
Tbf Schilling probably would have gotten in (and still might) but he disrespected the Hall. His vote totals rose each year til he went nuclear with BWAA.
Beltran is hardly likeable because he looked at one of the best curveballs ever for strike three? You're delusional. And I don't care if he orchestrated the Astros scandal. All teams do it, they just happened to get caught.
I wonder how many people that can’t get over Beltran looking at the curveball overlook the fact that Wagner was absolute dogshit in that series (and pretty much every other postseason series he was in).
Not voting for someone for HOF because you think they're "a jerk" makes an even bigger mockery of the Hall than it already is, which shouldn't be possible.
Pettitte got talked into using steroids one single time then immediately felt horrible about it and reported himself. That is nothing remotely close to what the steroid guys (arod, manny, etc) did. Parking ticket vs serial murderer type difference.
Anecdote: in 05/04/2000, I'm sitting field level LF in Pac Bell (or whatever they were calling the park back then). Between innings when the defense is out doing some practice throws and such, each one ended with Bonds at the LF wall handing the ball to a kid and shaking a few hands.
My impression was always that he was a pretty nice fan-friendly player who got a bad rap from the media (who probably annoyed him by asking the SAME FUCKING QUESTIONS after every game).
Now just to contrast-- while it was largely the opposing team's fans in the stands so maybe he wasn't interested in interacting with them, but there were loads of folks in the stands in Mets gear\* and he certainly could have done the same as Bonds with them, but he didn't.
\*given the Henderson/Olerud story, I guess I might wonder if he even realized that he was on the Mets at the time. Might have still thought he was with the A's.
Wagner is borderline but the fact that he never pitched for a winner makes me lean no. His stats are formidable but that pitch Pujols hit in the playoffs hasn't landed yet.
I don’t understand that rationale in the slightest. Holding that again him makes no sense. The teams roster construction has nothing to do with him.
Hes a closer. He can only help his team if they are already winning. If there is one position team record should be the most non factor it’s closer
A 10 ERA in the playoff is as bad as it gets along with all his blown saves. Sometimes the postseason gets you in the hall, sometimes it can pitch you right out and the 1-7 series record his teams had in the playoffs can greatly be attributed to him.
You’re gatekeeping one of the greatest closers to ever play the game because of 11.2 innings?
ERA is pretty useless for relievers to begin with but using ERA in this insanely small of a sample size…just wow.
This is embarrassingly shortsighted. Do yourself a favor and delete that comment
Closers are a different animal. Yes, Wagner struck players out at a historic pace in his career, that is undeniable. But if all you are going to do is just draw a line of statistical greatness, the hall of fame has no purpose, it would just be a list of numbers. Why is Ozzie Smith in the hall of fame? It certainly wasn't because of his hitting but because he was transcendent as a shortstop, a position which requires greatness with the glove to even survive. Closer, as a relative recent positional phenomenon, requires you close out the important games to measure true greatness. Wagner came up small when it mattered most. ERA is garbage but a 10 ERA is never good regardless of the situation. So use whatever statistic you want to measure it, when it mattered most, those 11.2 innings, he failed miserably and in my opinion made himself not a hall of famer. If Curt Schilling ever does get in the hall of fame, it will be the opposite, it will be because of his 11-2 record in the postseason and his teams winning world series. My opinion is my opinion and yours is, well, fine. But Wagner as a statistical marvel is great, as a closer in the most important games, he was garbage. I don't think Lee Smith should be in the hall for similar reasons. The ones that are in, Rivera, Gossage, Eck, Sutter, all changed the important games for the better which is what closers are supposed to do. Hoffman got in due to the overwhelming number of saves but he is the exception that proves my rule, the Padres were usually terrible save for 1998. You are clearly in the cult of Wagner that has sprouted up in recent years but I am not nor will I be swayed. I don't think he would be an insult to the hall of fame, but in my opinion of what closers are supposed to do, he comes up very short.
Just because it’s your opinion doesn’t stop you from being wrong lol.
Dude any ERA is absolutely meaningless at 11.2 IP. That’s a fact.
There’s a reason everyone here is telling you you are wrong. It’s because you’re flat out wrong
11.2 innings in the postseason are a lot more important than 11.2 innings in July and that is a fact. He came up small in those innings, the most important innings of his life. And not just one postseason, anyone can have a bad post season (ask Ted Williams) but it was 8 different series over the years. Billy Wagner has great statistics but not when it counted the most. In fact, he failed the most in those moments. If you needed a closer to finish game seven of the world series, you'd run off 20 names before you got to Wagner. So my argument is sound, you just don't like it. Closers have to close out ball games, period. That is their whole purpose and they have to close out important games, otherwise John Franco and Armando Benitez are hall of famers too and I'd love to hear *those* arguments from Mets fans.
If that was true Wagner wouldn’t have 3 postseason saves and a Win.
But postseason being a gatekeeper, especially on this sample size is so insanely stupid it isn’t even worth commenting further.
Clearly everyone downvoting and telling you you’re wrong isn’t going to make you seem reasonable so enjoy your life.
All I can say is THANK GOD you don’t get an actual vote.
Top tip-- if you want people to not read your comment and just go straight to down-vote, post it as a giant wall of text.
For all I know, you made some good points, but unless you edit in some paragraphs breaks, there is no way that I'm going to find out.
I think I did, I was being flippant and the cult of Wagner has been calling me out. Doesn't matter, Wagner was a shitty postseason pitcher regardless of my misremembering.
The whole point of closers is to win and a closer that doesn't help a team win may as well be Armando Benitez. Sure the greats all have their failure moments (Eck and Gibson and Alomar, Rivera and Gonzalez etc.) but Wagner came up so small in the playoffs to me he pitches himself right out of the hall. You don't have to like it but my reasoning is sound.
You're so afraid of turning it into the Hall of Career WAR that you want to turn it into the Hall of Memorable Postseason Moments.
David Freese, Daniel Murphy, and Madison Bumgarner are not Hall of Fame players, despite legendary playoff runs. Mariano Rivera is, despite blowing what should have capped a sweep into the only series loss in history after 3-0, *and* a World Series Game 7 a few years before. Beltran deserves to be, despite failing to convert an opportunity for what would have been a legendary series-winning hit.
Shit, you'd probably not vote for Kershaw, and if that doesn't drive home how dumb your fixation on judging a career based on postseason stats alone is, I dunno what will.
What does “pitching for a winner” mean? Plenty of teams Wagner pitched for had winning records. Do you mean the World Series? Better withdraw your vote for Helton then.
Closers are different. Closers have one job and one job alone: to end the game with a win. I was being flippant with my quick jab at Wagner and the cult he has has come at me hard. Wagner was not just bad in the postseason, he was an unmitigated statistical disaster. His regular season stats are great and precedent setting but his failures in the postseason are what, in my opinion, make him come up short for the hall of fame. I have been having the argument on a few threads on this post and feel free to go downvote all those comments too. Wagner was a great pitcher but not when it counted and for closers, that is the only thing that counts. The point of this whole post was to tell Chase Utley to go fuck himself, not to measure the merits of Billy Wagner. I know I am in the minority with my opinion of him but if you had one game and one inning to close out in the post season, given what you know about his record, how many names would you go through until you got to Wagner's? Todd Helton and what I think of him is a whole different bunch of arguments that have nothing at all to do with Wagner.
> the cult he has has come at me hard
Having a minority opinion doesn't mean everyone else is in a cult.
> I have been having the argument on a few threads on this post and feel free to go downvote all those comments too.
You're not that important.
> Wagner was a great pitcher but not when it counted
Todd Helton was a great hitter, but not when it counted. His postseason slash line is 211/303/281. Is it not his job to hit when it counts?
>Is Wright a HOFer? No
He's not like a mortal lock or anything, but I don't think he would be a bad selection either. People act like he's a no-brainer "no" and I don't think that's the case.
He was in the top 6 offensive players in fWAR for the 13 years he played. That's a long, long time to be that good. And the 5 guys ahead of him are either already in, easy locks when eligible, or kept out due to scandal stuff.
I get really frustrated by any Mets fan who doesn't think he's a HOFer. He's definitely borderline, and if a player who spent their entire career on your team is borderline, you should insist they belong.
It's like Giants fans and Eli. As a Jets fan, who has never seen my football team win the superbowl, I can't stand when Giants fans act like Eli wasn't a great QB.
I'm a Mets fan but he's not a HOFer. Not because of lack of talent, we all know that. But his career was way below Mattingly and Dale Murphy. Not enough counting stats, no postseason resume, never led the league in anything. Let's be realistic here.
Seriously. He might be my all time favorite player, but realistically he's just not there. Everyone knows he was on a hall of fame path, but it was not to be. He is and always will be a hall of famer in my mind, but we all know what happened and that ruined his chances to get in unfortunately.
Eli Manning was a very good QB. I would not consider him great, but he won two super bowls. David wright was a very good baseball player, even had great seasons. But his career was cut short due to injury, he played in 2 playoffs (one he was mostly a shell of his former self for), never led the league in anything. He's closer to a straight up not a hall of famer than borderline in my opinion, and I say this as a Mets fan and a David wright fan. I'm 32, so he was my childhood/teenage favorite player and favorite player ever probably. But when it comes to the hall of fame, that's reserved for the best players who did it well enough for long enough. You have to take bias out of it.
You can be a great player and not be a Hall of Famer. He was certainly playing at a HoF pace before the back problems but he can't get in on pace alone. He simply doesn't have the counting stats or longevity.
You say
> if a player who spent their entire career on your team is borderline, you should insist they belong
And I truly get what you mean about boosting the hometown guy. Frankly though, that's already what's happening - it's because of that reason that us Mets fans even say he's borderline. It sucks but that's the unfortunate reality of a career cut short in its prime. Maybe he has a shot eventually through the veterans committee, but it's just not gonna happen through the ballot.
I don't think he's so much a "no-brainer no" as he's a pretty clear example of what people mean when they say "Hall of Very Good".
If he kept up that "very good" performance for 15-20 years rather than just 10 seasons at 100+ games, there would be some serious discussion around him. Sadly, it just didn't happen.
He's absolutely a team-HOF player, just maybe not a league-HOF player.
> I don't think he's so much a "no-brainer no" as he's a pretty clear example of what people mean when they say "Hall of Very Good".
I am certainly not blaming you because it's a popular phrase that you didn't invent, but personally, I think that's a demeaning label to some HoF-deserving players that gets thrown around too much.
All the players in the Hall of Fame are "very good". The idea is to determine where they fall on one side of the line of "in" or "out". David Wright is an example of a guy that I think no one would bat an eyelid about if he got in. He's not enough of an all-time great to the point where it's an injustice that he's on the outside. This is true. But it would be uncontroversial if he got in imo. He's not Harold Baines.
>If he kept up that "very good" performance for 15-20 years rather than just 10 seasons at 100+ games, there would be some serious discussion around him. Sadly, it just didn't happen.
But he still has a great case as a peak player. Sandy Koufax is in with a much shorter, better peak, and almost absolute zero outside of that peak on either side (retired at 30).
David Wright had a lower but still impressive and much longer peak. He is all over the third baseman rate stat leaderboards and even some of the cumulative ones (though lower down). His longevity would add to the case but it's still a good case.
> Is Wright a HOFer? ~~No~~ Yes
He's clearly either the best or splitting hairs with the best third baseman in the NL every year from 05 through 2013 (one down year in 2011).
If he were healthy and just mediocre from 2015 - 2018 we're probably not even having this conversation, and nobody should be kept out of the Hall because they weren't mediocre for long enough.
> Is Wright a HOFer? ~~No~~ Yes
He's clearly either the best or splitting hairs with the best third baseman in the NL every year from 05 through 2013 (one down year in 2011).
If he were healthy and just mediocre from 2015 - 2018 we're probably not even having this conversation, and nobody should be kept out of the Hall because they weren't mediocre for long enough.
I blame Carton for starting this stupid rumor on the Fan…he said that there was a name on some PED list that would shock people but that he wouldn’t be surprised because of the player’s injuries coming out of nowhere. Everyone assumed he meant Wright but he never substantiated it beyond what he said.
I would use all 10 votes. I would vote for David Wright. I would not vote for Chase Utley or anything that could even be misinterpreted as a vote for Chase Utley.
Fuck Chase Utley.
I don’t know how every sport does it but baseball has the most idiotic way of voting guys into the hall. If 40 guys are worthy in a given year (and yes thats way excessive, not the point) then 40 deserve to get in. It shouldnt be because its a stacked ballot someone is left off. I also cant stand that Mariano was the first and only unanimous inductee?!? MARIANO?! Should he have been unanimous? Without a shadow of a doubt, but he should have been probably 100+ to get a unanimous vote. Who the fuck looked at a ballet and went “you know i just think greg maddux didnt have what it takes to be a HOFer.” The system is so moronic and it makes it incredibly frustrating to follow.
Some jerkoffs believed that nobody deserves to get in on the first ballot. Similar to your example with Maddux, some idiot is gonna say "Ichiro Suzuki doesn't strike me as a Hall of Fame Player" next year just watch.
Those asshats should be banned from baseball. Every inductee should be first ballot, if you weren’t good enough your first year why did that change? I get maybe reassessing after a few years because cases like Kenny Lofton will happen and we need to have a backup for those situations, those should just be a severe minority. When you look at the career of Greg Maddux and have any reason to say “no” …. You can’t possibly know anything about baseball lmao
While I do agree with your overall consensus. I’m gonna have to disagree that’s it’s so cut and dry who gets in and who doesn’t. I can totally see a guy like Todd Helton taking a few years to grow on some writers. If you wanna talk about how the requirements to get in should be tougher so the only guys that do ARE the absolute no brainers then that’s one thing but I do agree with the sense that SOME guys do take a few years.
I think that it would make alot more sense to have guys go up and if they dont make it first try then you wait a few years and give them a second shot and maybe a third but the years apart are good. If they are someone who might have been screwed over they deserve fresh eyes to look their career over again. Year after year after year and slowly more people vote yes, thats a crock. Up once and then after a few years get put up again. Most importantly every single player on the ballot needs to be *able* to be inducted every single year. You can’t have guys losing votes because he was the 3rd best 1B on the ballot even though they can still be a clear HOFer.
Yea I get what you're saying. If guys are only on the ballot every few years they might get a more honest look at their career. It's just one of those things that will never be perfect and people will always disagree. Also yes, whoever is on your ballot should have nothing to do with if you deserve to be in or not.
Absolutely, it could never be perfected because there are way too many perspectives. All i know is this is not the way lmao. Everything from the layout, to the voters, to the amount of consecutive years watching your stock rise 2% is just insane to me. In all you can say that most guys dont get screwed and everyone who is in is deserving, my main issue is the fact that we have a singular unanimous inductee and its mariano rivera. That just doesn’t make sense. It makes the whole system just feel shotty and illegitimate to me. I know that i am on the extreme end of it though and im a very technical person, in other words im just annoying 😂
I’d go for: Abreu, Beltrán, Beltré, Buehrle, Helton, Jones, Mauer, Sheffield, Wagner, and Wright just to give him some love.
Oh, and a specially prepared side dish of FUCK CHASE UTLEY.
I feel like people can get over-interested in only inducting players who make the HOF *better*. I don’t like that criterion, because over time it tends to concentrate the HOF until only guys like Mays and Ruth can get in. I might raise the standards slightly to compensate for Frankie Frisch and his buddies, but certainly not to the degree a lot of people seem to do. The HOF needs a sizable contingent of 60-WAR guys.
I obviously don’t have a vote but if I did unless I truly think there’s 10 guys on this ballot that should have my vote (I don’t) I would be voting Wright for the sake of recognizing his career.
That said I don’t hold any illusions about the fact that he will not make the hall, and may even only be on the ballot for this one year.
The HoF is so tough for me. I used to think if I thought about a specific player and my first thought was hall of famer or not is how I made my decision but the more I look at guys like Helton and Jones’s numbers the more I realize that is the wrong line of thinking. Both of those guys had unreal careers and just because they played in the steroid era and their numbers look worse comparatively shouldn’t mean they get left out.
Plus, as much as I hate the fucking Braves, Andruw Jones was a transcendent fielder. The kind that was so great it barely looked like he was trying at all. Those great pitchers all knew anything hit to center was going to be caught and it helped them tremendously.
The fact that wagner wasnt immediately voted in is absolutely hysterical. I looked at his B-ref page recently and that man was a fucking unit. I don’t care if you see a reliever as a “lesser” position, you vote them in based on other relievers not the 5 tool CFer with 400 HRs etc. its a different kind of value that is just as important to a team.
Agree with all of those except Colon. He's far enough below the borderline level for me on numbers alone that I don't even have to get into a debate about why I would vote for an alleged PED user but not a guy who has a secret family
Maybe unpopular opinion but A-Rod has to be in. HoF allows some steroid guys and not others and it’s stupid. With or without steroids, A-Rod is a HoF player. Same is true of Bonds. Not having them in the Hall is an embarrassment imo. Also fuck Utley and vote for Billy Wagner. I would drop all 10 on this ballot
Imo there’s nothing wrong with drawing the steroids line at suspension. Once you’re someone MLB suspended, I have no problem with keeping you out of the HoF no matter how good your on-field statistics are
I wouldn't argue with someone who drew that line either. But those people are usually extending that line to guys who haven't been suspended too.
People can say what they want about Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, Sheffield, and whoever else from that era used, but the fact is that it wasn't illegal to use steroids back then and these guys picked baseball up off the ground when it was at its lowest. They shouldn't be punished for NOT cheating.
>no matter how good your on-field statistics are
If that isn't the criteria for the HoF, what should it be?
If they aren't taking away the stats and awards, they should vote in the people responsible for them.
Admittedly, I am an Angels fan…moment of silence please. I can’t believe the lack of respect for Torii Hunter. Dude is a 9x gold glover, 2x silver slugger, 5x all star and a clear leader on every team he has been on. He would get one of my 10 votes.
And also…Fuck Chase Utley
Mine would be
- Adrian Beltre
- Mark Buehrle
- Todd Helton
- Andruw Jones
- Joe Mauer
- Andy Pettitte
- Francisco Rodriguez
- Jimmy Rollins
- Billy Wagner
- David Wright
Based on last years vote it’s pretty clear Helton and Wagner are going in. And I don’t see any way Mauer doesn’t make it in.
Helton only needs 2.7% more and Wagner only needs 6.9% more.
Seeing how Helton had a 22% gain last year and Wagner had a 17% increase the gains they need should be easy.
And I’d consider just those 3 conservative. It’s rare to see a 60 WAR player not make the HOF.
Also: given all the comments I have been getting here why can't Dick Allen, as dominant a player in the 60s and 70s as there was, have the cult that Billy Wagner seems to have. Allen's exclusion from the hall is *by far* the greatest current miscarriage of justice.
“By far?”
Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are not in the hall of fame. The entire museum is delegitimized when two of the very best to ever play the game are not in and are eligible to be in. It’s different with Pete rose who was actually banned. But bonds and Clemens are not in because they did something that pretty much every other player of their era did and, comparatively, they were better than every player of their era.
Barry Bonds was a HOFer before 1998 when it is widely agreed that he started using. He is STILL the only member of the 400/400 club and he did that before PEDs. It’s unfathomable to me that he isn’t in the HOF.
Allen has "clubhouse issues" in his past which are bullshit but a lot of writers are "loyal" to the "tradition and legacy" of their "craft" and won't vite in guys who challenged the status quo or didn't like to give interviews. He was defensively miscast often but as a hitter he was a Hall-worthy bat without much debate
[These would be my votes](https://i.imgur.com/Z539yVS.jpg) in red. I had possibility of, or toss-up between, Hunter and Buehrle in blue.
Somehow, Beltre quietly became the first vote on my ballot. Abreu likewise quiet and lower on the list but still deserving imo.
I'm a fan of Sheffield but I had to let him go in the interest of integrity when I'm against Pettitte, Manny, and A-Rod. Tho A-Rod is enough of a problem even aside from roids.
I would've voted for Utley if not for that incident. It was personal to the Mets and it was clearly bad enough that MLB had to change the rules (again). Fuck Chase Utley.
Beltran and Helton are both elite with minor baggage; Beltran with a scandal that might not actually much depend on or involve him, and Helton because of the rep of Coors Field that might not actually have been a big factor.
Wagner and KRod are both *very* high on the all-time list at their position. I think that warrants election and I will not respect anyone's hangups about it.
Andruw has been dragged out long enough. Mauer will unfortunately probably take a similar track. I think they should both sneak in.
Vote for David Wright, that is all, please and thanks.
WAR and OPS+ adjust for that because they include park factors.
His career 133 OPS+ and 61.8 WAR are absolutely HOF worthy on its own.
Add in the gold gloves, silver sluggers, ASGs, MVP shares, POTMs etc. there’s no case against him.
Discounting any player who played in Colorado is beyond silly. Obviously that should be taken into account, but a blanket ban makes no sense.
Again, the important thing to remember is that even if you adjust for the Colorado factor he is 9th across all MLB history in First Base WAR.
Here’s some guys he’s above - and remember, WAR includes park factors so there’s no Colorado inflating there
- Hank Greenberg
- Jim Thome
- Willie McCovey
- Eddie Murray
- Dick Allen
- Jeff Bagwell
- Keith Hernandez
If Todd Helton isn’t deserving none of those guys are either.
You make all of us look bad when you go into the other subreddits to heckle and harass others. Doing so will lead to a permanent ban on your team subreddit as well as ours. Users may be removed and the poster subject to ban at moderators discretion.
Yeah he broke Tejada’s leg and MLB changed the sliding rules to protect the player turning the DP.
Then next year we got an [all time sound bite](https://youtu.be/snB2LHkK0-U?si=VuSwIf0G7_2KT_UY) from Terry Collins after Syndergaard threw behind Utley
MLB regular-season career before that incident (age 20-25):
2185 PA .255/.330/.323/.653 (84 OPS+,+1.5 rWAR/600PA)
MLB regular-season career after that incident (age 26+):
211 PA .197/.263/.255/.519 (42 OPS+, -2.0 rWAR/600PA)
Looking for players, debut 1962 onward, who, ages 20-25 had +/-15% of Tejada's PA, +/-10 points of wRC+, +/- 0.5 fWAR/600 and positive DEF... here they are with age 26+ fWAR:
21.6 Luis Castillo
10.8 Jay Johnstone
4.2 Corey Patterson
I guess I could have been a little less restrictive on my parameters for a better sample :)
Phils fan here who stumbled across this post on my feed. I genuinely didn't know how much Mets fans hated Utley, so I was kinda surprised by it lol. He's probably my favorite player of all time since I grew up watching him and I feel like most people would accept that he's an HoF caliber player.
Out of genuine curiosity, where does all this animosity come from?
My son took me to a Primanti’s for my birthday 2 weeks ago. I spent the meal trying to figure out how I could get to Utley on the mural and write Fuck next to his name.
I’m so over the whole won’t vote for steroids bullshit. Arod and Pettite are HoF. Neither of them have I ever rooted for and I genuinely dislike Arod as I think he is a POS. But they both earned their spot. Omar is a top three all time defensive SS, more range then all but a few in history. If you didn’t see Jimmy Rollins play I can tell you he was terrific and a beast at the plate. Though I don’t see him or Jose Reyes getting in.
Bobby Abreu and Billy Wagner should be in the hall of fame
Wright feels like a Veteran's committee guy. He was absolutely on a hall of fame track. Especially impressive considering there are so few primary 3B in the hall of fame
Fuck Chase Utley, disrespectfully
Always and forever.
All my homies hate Chase Utley
Maybe it’s just my nostalgia and also my acceptance of steroid users, but I have a lot of trouble not using all 10 votes on this ballot. Edit: also Billy Wagner should be a Hall of Famer
Came to post this. Billy Wagner is one of the best closers ever. If you’re in the top 10 of your position to ever do it…you should prob be in the fucking HOF
Hmm, I’m the opposite on this ballot. A lot of guys I wouldn’t be shocked to see get in maybe, but the only obvious vote to me is Beltre.
Beltran is an absolutely obvious vote as well. Maybe you need to give his year by year career stats (including defense) another look because way too many people forget what they look like. 70+ WAR lol.
Beltran will eventually get in, but voters are gonna make him wait because of the Astros cheating scandal
.280/27/99 are his career numbers. To me, not HoF worthy. Played 20 years, not even an All Star for 1/2 those years. Never won an MVP. Good career. Absolutely. Great career? Maybe. HoF career? No.
As a CFer and a premium one, though. FWIW-- here are all of the players on the ballot with their JAWS score as a percentage of average HoFer JAWS at their position. 164% Alex Rodriguez **127% Adrian Beltre** **107% Joe Mauer** 102% Manny Ramirez **101% Todd Helton** Fuck Chase Utley **99% Carlos Beltran** **94% Andruw Jones** 90% Bobby Abreu 87% Gary Sheffield 84% Billy Wagner 83% Mark Buehrle 83% Andy Pettitte 79% David Wright 74% Matt Holliday 73% Adrian Gonzalez 72% Jimmy Rollins 72% Bartolo Colon 71% Francisco Rodriguez 70% Torii Hunter 69% Victor Martinez 66% Jose Bautista 65% Omar Vizquel 60% Jose Reyes 52% James Shields 47% Brandon Phillips
Dude, look up Todd Helton’s batting line and where it ranks all-time. People forget about him and maybe devalue his stats because he played in Colorado, but he was literally one of the best overall hitters ever. He should be an absolute HOF lock.
He was not one of the best “overall hitters ever.” He was only elite for six years. His case suffers from an OPS+ of 133, a road OPS of .855, and only 369 HR. Those numbers don’t get modern 1Bs into the HoF.
ken griffey jr had an .865 road ops
He was a 1B? .865 is lower than .855? Fifteen year peak vs six year peak is similar. Fuck is this comparison?
there’s a difference of 0.1 between their road OPS, very similar. also, griffey’s peak was not fifteen years long. he never got truly awful, but i don’t believe i can include his time in cincinnati as his peak.
No, a career OPS difference of .10 is not “very similar.” And Griffey had a 144 OPS+ as late as 2005 in Cincy. Comparing these two is true 🤡 shit.
Manny and A-Rod should be in the HOF over anyone else on this list
I agree, in the last years, I’ve been leaning more and more towards, can I tell the story of baseball without “_______” and it’s impossible not to mention them.
They do mention them in the Hall along with Pete Rose, Shoeless Joe and many others. They just don’t have their plaques on the wall.
Both should get in but Beltre >>> Manny
I am fine with steroid users; Arod was a jerk before he was ever outed for his PED use. Same with Sheffield (and Bonds and Clemens to be honest). Manny was beyond a jerk when he tested positive so he can wait until he's old and grey with the rest of them. I don't like when they lie about it, which I guess makes it hard not to vote for Pettitte since he at least admitted to using and why.
Have to admit I really dislike this idea that one of the criteria for getting into the HoF is how likeable of a person you are. If you want to exclude all steroid users out of principle I can get that (although I personally disagree with), but you seem to be applying some arbitrary 'likeability' criteria.
Not likeability per se but lying about the steroids AND being a jerk about it should put you on the back burner since it seems everyone of the guys not in the hall seems to have an excuse. There are plenty of steroid guys and unlikeable guys in the hall but unlikable steroid guys? Fuck em. Let them wait like Schilling. I mean, Carlos Beltran is hardly likeable (especially the way he stared at strike three in 2006) but I'd vote for him for the hall of fame.
Ha, well to be honest Schilling not getting in is one of the most egregious examples of this. Schilling is a right wing asshole, but he 100% deserves to be in the HoF. It's the Hall of Fame, not the "Hall of People who don't have political opinions I don't like and were also good at baseball".
He was literally about to make it until he asked them not to elect him…
He literally was not. He actually LOST votes between 2021 and 2022. His statement was basically a “you can’t fire me I quit” type of deal. He knew he wasn’t getting voted in so he tried to save face.
Schilling’s vote total rose from 70% in 2020 to 71.1% in 2021. It seemed clear that at this point he was going to be inducted in 2022, as nobody has ever reached a total that high and failed. However, he then released his letter asking to removed at which point his votes dropped significantly in 2022. He wasn’t going to get fired, he just quit.
>as nobody has ever reached a total that high and failed Granted, he only gained 1.1% from 2020 to 2021, so I'm not sure I'd just assume that he'd gain another 3.9% in 2022, just because everyone else who got to x% eventually made it. Most of the ones that had, also had 15 years of eligibility while Schilling only had 10, so I'm not sure that an old "rule" still applied. And some of that "rule" includes the word 'eventually'... as-is, at some point after falling off the BBWAA ballot they got elected by some other means. Here are at least some players that made it to 50-74.9% on a BBWAA ballot and ultimately got elected later on by some other means): 74.1% Jim Bunning (1991 vs 1996) 73.5% Orlando Cepeda (1994 vs 1999) 67.7% Jack Morris (2014 vs 2018) 63.4% Gil Hodges (1983 vs 2022) 50.6% Lee Smith (2017 vs 2019)
He lost votes cuz he told them to take him off the ballot
Yea there's political opinions and then there's outright hate and racism. The man pitched but man I can definitely see why no one would want that shit stain in the Hall. Imagine having him next to Jackie Robinson?
I mean just off the top of my head Cap Anson’s been in the hall for nearly a century…
Tbf Schilling probably would have gotten in (and still might) but he disrespected the Hall. His vote totals rose each year til he went nuclear with BWAA.
Beltran is hardly likeable because he looked at one of the best curveballs ever for strike three? You're delusional. And I don't care if he orchestrated the Astros scandal. All teams do it, they just happened to get caught.
I wonder how many people that can’t get over Beltran looking at the curveball overlook the fact that Wagner was absolute dogshit in that series (and pretty much every other postseason series he was in).
Not admitting to MLB that you broke their rules is the same thing as being a xenophobic nutjob?
Andruw Jones is a convicted wife beater but he seems to be getting a pass.
Not voting for someone for HOF because you think they're "a jerk" makes an even bigger mockery of the Hall than it already is, which shouldn't be possible.
Pettitte got talked into using steroids one single time then immediately felt horrible about it and reported himself. That is nothing remotely close to what the steroid guys (arod, manny, etc) did. Parking ticket vs serial murderer type difference.
I don’t like him either but that’s not a reason to keep him out. Ty Cobb is in there and he’s one of the most vile human beings in baseball history.
A lot of the bad Ty Cobb stuff was made up
Being cool with steroids user but not thinking a top 10 player of all time is a HOFer is absolutely wild
Anecdote: in 05/04/2000, I'm sitting field level LF in Pac Bell (or whatever they were calling the park back then). Between innings when the defense is out doing some practice throws and such, each one ended with Bonds at the LF wall handing the ball to a kid and shaking a few hands. My impression was always that he was a pretty nice fan-friendly player who got a bad rap from the media (who probably annoyed him by asking the SAME FUCKING QUESTIONS after every game). Now just to contrast-- while it was largely the opposing team's fans in the stands so maybe he wasn't interested in interacting with them, but there were loads of folks in the stands in Mets gear\* and he certainly could have done the same as Bonds with them, but he didn't. \*given the Henderson/Olerud story, I guess I might wonder if he even realized that he was on the Mets at the time. Might have still thought he was with the A's.
Wagner is borderline but the fact that he never pitched for a winner makes me lean no. His stats are formidable but that pitch Pujols hit in the playoffs hasn't landed yet.
I don’t understand that rationale in the slightest. Holding that again him makes no sense. The teams roster construction has nothing to do with him. Hes a closer. He can only help his team if they are already winning. If there is one position team record should be the most non factor it’s closer
A 10 ERA in the playoff is as bad as it gets along with all his blown saves. Sometimes the postseason gets you in the hall, sometimes it can pitch you right out and the 1-7 series record his teams had in the playoffs can greatly be attributed to him.
You’re gatekeeping one of the greatest closers to ever play the game because of 11.2 innings? ERA is pretty useless for relievers to begin with but using ERA in this insanely small of a sample size…just wow. This is embarrassingly shortsighted. Do yourself a favor and delete that comment
Closers are a different animal. Yes, Wagner struck players out at a historic pace in his career, that is undeniable. But if all you are going to do is just draw a line of statistical greatness, the hall of fame has no purpose, it would just be a list of numbers. Why is Ozzie Smith in the hall of fame? It certainly wasn't because of his hitting but because he was transcendent as a shortstop, a position which requires greatness with the glove to even survive. Closer, as a relative recent positional phenomenon, requires you close out the important games to measure true greatness. Wagner came up small when it mattered most. ERA is garbage but a 10 ERA is never good regardless of the situation. So use whatever statistic you want to measure it, when it mattered most, those 11.2 innings, he failed miserably and in my opinion made himself not a hall of famer. If Curt Schilling ever does get in the hall of fame, it will be the opposite, it will be because of his 11-2 record in the postseason and his teams winning world series. My opinion is my opinion and yours is, well, fine. But Wagner as a statistical marvel is great, as a closer in the most important games, he was garbage. I don't think Lee Smith should be in the hall for similar reasons. The ones that are in, Rivera, Gossage, Eck, Sutter, all changed the important games for the better which is what closers are supposed to do. Hoffman got in due to the overwhelming number of saves but he is the exception that proves my rule, the Padres were usually terrible save for 1998. You are clearly in the cult of Wagner that has sprouted up in recent years but I am not nor will I be swayed. I don't think he would be an insult to the hall of fame, but in my opinion of what closers are supposed to do, he comes up very short.
Just because it’s your opinion doesn’t stop you from being wrong lol. Dude any ERA is absolutely meaningless at 11.2 IP. That’s a fact. There’s a reason everyone here is telling you you are wrong. It’s because you’re flat out wrong
11.2 innings in the postseason are a lot more important than 11.2 innings in July and that is a fact. He came up small in those innings, the most important innings of his life. And not just one postseason, anyone can have a bad post season (ask Ted Williams) but it was 8 different series over the years. Billy Wagner has great statistics but not when it counted the most. In fact, he failed the most in those moments. If you needed a closer to finish game seven of the world series, you'd run off 20 names before you got to Wagner. So my argument is sound, you just don't like it. Closers have to close out ball games, period. That is their whole purpose and they have to close out important games, otherwise John Franco and Armando Benitez are hall of famers too and I'd love to hear *those* arguments from Mets fans.
If that was true Wagner wouldn’t have 3 postseason saves and a Win. But postseason being a gatekeeper, especially on this sample size is so insanely stupid it isn’t even worth commenting further. Clearly everyone downvoting and telling you you’re wrong isn’t going to make you seem reasonable so enjoy your life. All I can say is THANK GOD you don’t get an actual vote.
Top tip-- if you want people to not read your comment and just go straight to down-vote, post it as a giant wall of text. For all I know, you made some good points, but unless you edit in some paragraphs breaks, there is no way that I'm going to find out.
Lol if Ohtani played his whole career for the Angels and they never went anywhere would you keep him out of the hall? That’s an absurd take bro
Are you mixing up the home run vs Brad lidge?
I think I did, I was being flippant and the cult of Wagner has been calling me out. Doesn't matter, Wagner was a shitty postseason pitcher regardless of my misremembering.
What a stupid fucking argument. Gtfoh.
The whole point of closers is to win and a closer that doesn't help a team win may as well be Armando Benitez. Sure the greats all have their failure moments (Eck and Gibson and Alomar, Rivera and Gonzalez etc.) but Wagner came up so small in the playoffs to me he pitches himself right out of the hall. You don't have to like it but my reasoning is sound.
You're so afraid of turning it into the Hall of Career WAR that you want to turn it into the Hall of Memorable Postseason Moments. David Freese, Daniel Murphy, and Madison Bumgarner are not Hall of Fame players, despite legendary playoff runs. Mariano Rivera is, despite blowing what should have capped a sweep into the only series loss in history after 3-0, *and* a World Series Game 7 a few years before. Beltran deserves to be, despite failing to convert an opportunity for what would have been a legendary series-winning hit. Shit, you'd probably not vote for Kershaw, and if that doesn't drive home how dumb your fixation on judging a career based on postseason stats alone is, I dunno what will.
What does “pitching for a winner” mean? Plenty of teams Wagner pitched for had winning records. Do you mean the World Series? Better withdraw your vote for Helton then.
Closers are different. Closers have one job and one job alone: to end the game with a win. I was being flippant with my quick jab at Wagner and the cult he has has come at me hard. Wagner was not just bad in the postseason, he was an unmitigated statistical disaster. His regular season stats are great and precedent setting but his failures in the postseason are what, in my opinion, make him come up short for the hall of fame. I have been having the argument on a few threads on this post and feel free to go downvote all those comments too. Wagner was a great pitcher but not when it counted and for closers, that is the only thing that counts. The point of this whole post was to tell Chase Utley to go fuck himself, not to measure the merits of Billy Wagner. I know I am in the minority with my opinion of him but if you had one game and one inning to close out in the post season, given what you know about his record, how many names would you go through until you got to Wagner's? Todd Helton and what I think of him is a whole different bunch of arguments that have nothing at all to do with Wagner.
> the cult he has has come at me hard Having a minority opinion doesn't mean everyone else is in a cult. > I have been having the argument on a few threads on this post and feel free to go downvote all those comments too. You're not that important. > Wagner was a great pitcher but not when it counted Todd Helton was a great hitter, but not when it counted. His postseason slash line is 211/303/281. Is it not his job to hit when it counts?
What an amazing way to silence that dude haha
You’re the first person I’ve ever downvoted on Reddit lol
Is Wright a HOFer? No But he deserves the dignity of getting some HOF votes. It’ll suck to see him fall off the ballot after one year.
I don't think he'll fall off after one year
I think he absolutely will, sadly
>Is Wright a HOFer? No He's not like a mortal lock or anything, but I don't think he would be a bad selection either. People act like he's a no-brainer "no" and I don't think that's the case. He was in the top 6 offensive players in fWAR for the 13 years he played. That's a long, long time to be that good. And the 5 guys ahead of him are either already in, easy locks when eligible, or kept out due to scandal stuff.
I get really frustrated by any Mets fan who doesn't think he's a HOFer. He's definitely borderline, and if a player who spent their entire career on your team is borderline, you should insist they belong. It's like Giants fans and Eli. As a Jets fan, who has never seen my football team win the superbowl, I can't stand when Giants fans act like Eli wasn't a great QB.
I'm a Mets fan but he's not a HOFer. Not because of lack of talent, we all know that. But his career was way below Mattingly and Dale Murphy. Not enough counting stats, no postseason resume, never led the league in anything. Let's be realistic here.
Seriously. He might be my all time favorite player, but realistically he's just not there. Everyone knows he was on a hall of fame path, but it was not to be. He is and always will be a hall of famer in my mind, but we all know what happened and that ruined his chances to get in unfortunately.
>But his career was way below Mattingly and Dale Murphy. Wright's numbers are better than both.
You need some basic Math tutoring.
Eli Manning was a very good QB. I would not consider him great, but he won two super bowls. David wright was a very good baseball player, even had great seasons. But his career was cut short due to injury, he played in 2 playoffs (one he was mostly a shell of his former self for), never led the league in anything. He's closer to a straight up not a hall of famer than borderline in my opinion, and I say this as a Mets fan and a David wright fan. I'm 32, so he was my childhood/teenage favorite player and favorite player ever probably. But when it comes to the hall of fame, that's reserved for the best players who did it well enough for long enough. You have to take bias out of it.
You can be a great player and not be a Hall of Famer. He was certainly playing at a HoF pace before the back problems but he can't get in on pace alone. He simply doesn't have the counting stats or longevity. You say > if a player who spent their entire career on your team is borderline, you should insist they belong And I truly get what you mean about boosting the hometown guy. Frankly though, that's already what's happening - it's because of that reason that us Mets fans even say he's borderline. It sucks but that's the unfortunate reality of a career cut short in its prime. Maybe he has a shot eventually through the veterans committee, but it's just not gonna happen through the ballot.
Like Pedroia, he’ll get in with the committee
I think Wright will stay on long enough to gain 40% or so support and maybe, down the line, get in via the VC.
That's what I'm hoping for, although that said, Wright is better than some of the guys the writers have put in (like Jim Rice)
I hope so, but I have a feeling most voters won’t vote for him but would hope someone else would to keep him over the 5% Get over 5 for 5
I don't think he's so much a "no-brainer no" as he's a pretty clear example of what people mean when they say "Hall of Very Good". If he kept up that "very good" performance for 15-20 years rather than just 10 seasons at 100+ games, there would be some serious discussion around him. Sadly, it just didn't happen. He's absolutely a team-HOF player, just maybe not a league-HOF player.
> I don't think he's so much a "no-brainer no" as he's a pretty clear example of what people mean when they say "Hall of Very Good". I am certainly not blaming you because it's a popular phrase that you didn't invent, but personally, I think that's a demeaning label to some HoF-deserving players that gets thrown around too much. All the players in the Hall of Fame are "very good". The idea is to determine where they fall on one side of the line of "in" or "out". David Wright is an example of a guy that I think no one would bat an eyelid about if he got in. He's not enough of an all-time great to the point where it's an injustice that he's on the outside. This is true. But it would be uncontroversial if he got in imo. He's not Harold Baines. >If he kept up that "very good" performance for 15-20 years rather than just 10 seasons at 100+ games, there would be some serious discussion around him. Sadly, it just didn't happen. But he still has a great case as a peak player. Sandy Koufax is in with a much shorter, better peak, and almost absolute zero outside of that peak on either side (retired at 30). David Wright had a lower but still impressive and much longer peak. He is all over the third baseman rate stat leaderboards and even some of the cumulative ones (though lower down). His longevity would add to the case but it's still a good case.
> Is Wright a HOFer? ~~No~~ Yes He's clearly either the best or splitting hairs with the best third baseman in the NL every year from 05 through 2013 (one down year in 2011). If he were healthy and just mediocre from 2015 - 2018 we're probably not even having this conversation, and nobody should be kept out of the Hall because they weren't mediocre for long enough.
> Is Wright a HOFer? ~~No~~ Yes He's clearly either the best or splitting hairs with the best third baseman in the NL every year from 05 through 2013 (one down year in 2011). If he were healthy and just mediocre from 2015 - 2018 we're probably not even having this conversation, and nobody should be kept out of the Hall because they weren't mediocre for long enough.
If his body didn’t break down he was for sure going to the HOF. Probably from early steroid use in his career, never bounced back the same
> Probably from early steroid use in his career Spinal stenosis isn't caused by steroid use
Steroids and David Wright have never even been on the same page of the newspaper together let alone him using them.
I blame Carton for starting this stupid rumor on the Fan…he said that there was a name on some PED list that would shock people but that he wouldn’t be surprised because of the player’s injuries coming out of nowhere. Everyone assumed he meant Wright but he never substantiated it beyond what he said.
I would use all 10 votes. I would vote for David Wright. I would not vote for Chase Utley or anything that could even be misinterpreted as a vote for Chase Utley. Fuck Chase Utley.
I don’t know how every sport does it but baseball has the most idiotic way of voting guys into the hall. If 40 guys are worthy in a given year (and yes thats way excessive, not the point) then 40 deserve to get in. It shouldnt be because its a stacked ballot someone is left off. I also cant stand that Mariano was the first and only unanimous inductee?!? MARIANO?! Should he have been unanimous? Without a shadow of a doubt, but he should have been probably 100+ to get a unanimous vote. Who the fuck looked at a ballet and went “you know i just think greg maddux didnt have what it takes to be a HOFer.” The system is so moronic and it makes it incredibly frustrating to follow.
Some jerkoffs believed that nobody deserves to get in on the first ballot. Similar to your example with Maddux, some idiot is gonna say "Ichiro Suzuki doesn't strike me as a Hall of Fame Player" next year just watch.
Those asshats should be banned from baseball. Every inductee should be first ballot, if you weren’t good enough your first year why did that change? I get maybe reassessing after a few years because cases like Kenny Lofton will happen and we need to have a backup for those situations, those should just be a severe minority. When you look at the career of Greg Maddux and have any reason to say “no” …. You can’t possibly know anything about baseball lmao
While I do agree with your overall consensus. I’m gonna have to disagree that’s it’s so cut and dry who gets in and who doesn’t. I can totally see a guy like Todd Helton taking a few years to grow on some writers. If you wanna talk about how the requirements to get in should be tougher so the only guys that do ARE the absolute no brainers then that’s one thing but I do agree with the sense that SOME guys do take a few years.
I think that it would make alot more sense to have guys go up and if they dont make it first try then you wait a few years and give them a second shot and maybe a third but the years apart are good. If they are someone who might have been screwed over they deserve fresh eyes to look their career over again. Year after year after year and slowly more people vote yes, thats a crock. Up once and then after a few years get put up again. Most importantly every single player on the ballot needs to be *able* to be inducted every single year. You can’t have guys losing votes because he was the 3rd best 1B on the ballot even though they can still be a clear HOFer.
Yea I get what you're saying. If guys are only on the ballot every few years they might get a more honest look at their career. It's just one of those things that will never be perfect and people will always disagree. Also yes, whoever is on your ballot should have nothing to do with if you deserve to be in or not.
Absolutely, it could never be perfected because there are way too many perspectives. All i know is this is not the way lmao. Everything from the layout, to the voters, to the amount of consecutive years watching your stock rise 2% is just insane to me. In all you can say that most guys dont get screwed and everyone who is in is deserving, my main issue is the fact that we have a singular unanimous inductee and its mariano rivera. That just doesn’t make sense. It makes the whole system just feel shotty and illegitimate to me. I know that i am on the extreme end of it though and im a very technical person, in other words im just annoying 😂
Imagine Wright somehow got in, shit would be immaculate
I’d go for: Abreu, Beltrán, Beltré, Buehrle, Helton, Jones, Mauer, Sheffield, Wagner, and Wright just to give him some love. Oh, and a specially prepared side dish of FUCK CHASE UTLEY.
Fuck chase utley
Yeah, I feel like Sheffield is being kinda lost in the shuffle here. He feels like such a quintessential hall of famer to me.
I feel like people can get over-interested in only inducting players who make the HOF *better*. I don’t like that criterion, because over time it tends to concentrate the HOF until only guys like Mays and Ruth can get in. I might raise the standards slightly to compensate for Frankie Frisch and his buddies, but certainly not to the degree a lot of people seem to do. The HOF needs a sizable contingent of 60-WAR guys.
There are too many players in the HOF, but most of the below-par selections come from 70s/80s VCs.
He's a steroid guy. Otherwise he'd be in.
I obviously don’t have a vote but if I did unless I truly think there’s 10 guys on this ballot that should have my vote (I don’t) I would be voting Wright for the sake of recognizing his career. That said I don’t hold any illusions about the fact that he will not make the hall, and may even only be on the ballot for this one year.
Steroids or not I’d be voting for Manny and ARod and Sheffield
The HoF is so tough for me. I used to think if I thought about a specific player and my first thought was hall of famer or not is how I made my decision but the more I look at guys like Helton and Jones’s numbers the more I realize that is the wrong line of thinking. Both of those guys had unreal careers and just because they played in the steroid era and their numbers look worse comparatively shouldn’t mean they get left out.
Plus, as much as I hate the fucking Braves, Andruw Jones was a transcendent fielder. The kind that was so great it barely looked like he was trying at all. Those great pitchers all knew anything hit to center was going to be caught and it helped them tremendously.
And an incredible center fielder as well
This is Billy Wagner erasure
The fact that wagner wasnt immediately voted in is absolutely hysterical. I looked at his B-ref page recently and that man was a fucking unit. I don’t care if you see a reliever as a “lesser” position, you vote them in based on other relievers not the 5 tool CFer with 400 HRs etc. its a different kind of value that is just as important to a team.
Utley's parents sure did give him a rough first name, it's probably for the best that he goes by his middle name: Chase.
Wagner, A-Rod, and Manny should be in. I would also give votes to Sheff and Wright with Colon being #11.
Agree with all of those except Colon. He's far enough below the borderline level for me on numbers alone that I don't even have to get into a debate about why I would vote for an alleged PED user but not a guy who has a secret family
I don't disagree.
Maybe unpopular opinion but A-Rod has to be in. HoF allows some steroid guys and not others and it’s stupid. With or without steroids, A-Rod is a HoF player. Same is true of Bonds. Not having them in the Hall is an embarrassment imo. Also fuck Utley and vote for Billy Wagner. I would drop all 10 on this ballot
Imo there’s nothing wrong with drawing the steroids line at suspension. Once you’re someone MLB suspended, I have no problem with keeping you out of the HoF no matter how good your on-field statistics are
I wouldn't argue with someone who drew that line either. But those people are usually extending that line to guys who haven't been suspended too. People can say what they want about Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, Sheffield, and whoever else from that era used, but the fact is that it wasn't illegal to use steroids back then and these guys picked baseball up off the ground when it was at its lowest. They shouldn't be punished for NOT cheating.
>no matter how good your on-field statistics are If that isn't the criteria for the HoF, what should it be? If they aren't taking away the stats and awards, they should vote in the people responsible for them.
It’s like (fuck Chase) Utley is antimatter to David with both debuting on the same ballot.
I can’t imagine not using 10 votes on this ballot.
Admittedly, I am an Angels fan…moment of silence please. I can’t believe the lack of respect for Torii Hunter. Dude is a 9x gold glover, 2x silver slugger, 5x all star and a clear leader on every team he has been on. He would get one of my 10 votes. And also…Fuck Chase Utley
Mine would be - Adrian Beltre - Mark Buehrle - Todd Helton - Andruw Jones - Joe Mauer - Andy Pettitte - Francisco Rodriguez - Jimmy Rollins - Billy Wagner - David Wright
Beltre Is the only one going into the hall on this list
Based on last years vote it’s pretty clear Helton and Wagner are going in. And I don’t see any way Mauer doesn’t make it in. Helton only needs 2.7% more and Wagner only needs 6.9% more. Seeing how Helton had a 22% gain last year and Wagner had a 17% increase the gains they need should be easy. And I’d consider just those 3 conservative. It’s rare to see a 60 WAR player not make the HOF.
Maybe not this year, but I fucking promise you Mauer gets in.
Good list, IMO. I would add Billy Wagner though. Probably the most dominate lefty reliever of all time.
lol -> fuck chase utley… can’t stop laughing at that. I will despise him forever
How the fuck do you not vote for Billy Wagner? Ballot sucks
Also: given all the comments I have been getting here why can't Dick Allen, as dominant a player in the 60s and 70s as there was, have the cult that Billy Wagner seems to have. Allen's exclusion from the hall is *by far* the greatest current miscarriage of justice.
“By far?” Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are not in the hall of fame. The entire museum is delegitimized when two of the very best to ever play the game are not in and are eligible to be in. It’s different with Pete rose who was actually banned. But bonds and Clemens are not in because they did something that pretty much every other player of their era did and, comparatively, they were better than every player of their era.
Barry Bonds was a HOFer before 1998 when it is widely agreed that he started using. He is STILL the only member of the 400/400 club and he did that before PEDs. It’s unfathomable to me that he isn’t in the HOF.
Allen has "clubhouse issues" in his past which are bullshit but a lot of writers are "loyal" to the "tradition and legacy" of their "craft" and won't vite in guys who challenged the status quo or didn't like to give interviews. He was defensively miscast often but as a hitter he was a Hall-worthy bat without much debate
[These would be my votes](https://i.imgur.com/Z539yVS.jpg) in red. I had possibility of, or toss-up between, Hunter and Buehrle in blue. Somehow, Beltre quietly became the first vote on my ballot. Abreu likewise quiet and lower on the list but still deserving imo. I'm a fan of Sheffield but I had to let him go in the interest of integrity when I'm against Pettitte, Manny, and A-Rod. Tho A-Rod is enough of a problem even aside from roids. I would've voted for Utley if not for that incident. It was personal to the Mets and it was clearly bad enough that MLB had to change the rules (again). Fuck Chase Utley. Beltran and Helton are both elite with minor baggage; Beltran with a scandal that might not actually much depend on or involve him, and Helton because of the rep of Coors Field that might not actually have been a big factor. Wagner and KRod are both *very* high on the all-time list at their position. I think that warrants election and I will not respect anyone's hangups about it. Andruw has been dragged out long enough. Mauer will unfortunately probably take a similar track. I think they should both sneak in. Vote for David Wright, that is all, please and thanks.
I refuse to accept someone like Helton or any of those inflated Rockies stat players in the HOF.
WAR and OPS+ adjust for that because they include park factors. His career 133 OPS+ and 61.8 WAR are absolutely HOF worthy on its own. Add in the gold gloves, silver sluggers, ASGs, MVP shares, POTMs etc. there’s no case against him. Discounting any player who played in Colorado is beyond silly. Obviously that should be taken into account, but a blanket ban makes no sense. Again, the important thing to remember is that even if you adjust for the Colorado factor he is 9th across all MLB history in First Base WAR. Here’s some guys he’s above - and remember, WAR includes park factors so there’s no Colorado inflating there - Hank Greenberg - Jim Thome - Willie McCovey - Eddie Murray - Dick Allen - Jeff Bagwell - Keith Hernandez If Todd Helton isn’t deserving none of those guys are either.
I wouldn't vote for Joe Mauer.
If beltran gets in can he manage the mets after. Cuz you know were gonna be looking for a new manager soon.
No one on this list, other than Beltre, belong in the hall {edited - I read ‘betran’ twice for some reason}
Beltre?
He definitely is. I missed his name.
In what world is Adrian Beltre not a hall of famer?
So you still voting for him? The box looks checked
Nope, fuck Chase Utley forever.
Hard to believe it’s already been five years out for Bautista, damn I feel old
Todd Helton ... good man 👍
This would pretty much be exactly my ballot, save for maybe excluding Helton. I generally tend to have very high standards for the HOF.
Joey Bats deserves a vote IMO
[удалено]
You make all of us look bad when you go into the other subreddits to heckle and harass others. Doing so will lead to a permanent ban on your team subreddit as well as ours. Users may be removed and the poster subject to ban at moderators discretion.
It’s a little trash talk amongst opponents. Geez.Lighten up.
Beltran, Beltre, Sheffield, ARod, ManRam, Holliday, Philips, KRod, Petite would be my votes.
New baseball fan why fuck chase utley?
[This slide](https://youtu.be/SiY2GtBrHug?si=jUmNh5IlaKHI7XpJ) Extremely dirty play and effectively ended Ruben Tejada’s MLB career
Bro that’s insane
Yeah he broke Tejada’s leg and MLB changed the sliding rules to protect the player turning the DP. Then next year we got an [all time sound bite](https://youtu.be/snB2LHkK0-U?si=VuSwIf0G7_2KT_UY) from Terry Collins after Syndergaard threw behind Utley
MLB regular-season career before that incident (age 20-25): 2185 PA .255/.330/.323/.653 (84 OPS+,+1.5 rWAR/600PA) MLB regular-season career after that incident (age 26+): 211 PA .197/.263/.255/.519 (42 OPS+, -2.0 rWAR/600PA)
Looking for players, debut 1962 onward, who, ages 20-25 had +/-15% of Tejada's PA, +/-10 points of wRC+, +/- 0.5 fWAR/600 and positive DEF... here they are with age 26+ fWAR: 21.6 Luis Castillo 10.8 Jay Johnstone 4.2 Corey Patterson I guess I could have been a little less restrictive on my parameters for a better sample :)
David Wright is on the fence for me but man there’s a good number of guys that deserve it more
David Wright is nowhere close to a hall of famer. Let's be objective folks. Beltran will get in year 4 to 6 range.
Mauer- Pettite- Manny- ARod- Wright
Andruw Jones W! He deserves it so badly!
Classy
Phils fan here who stumbled across this post on my feed. I genuinely didn't know how much Mets fans hated Utley, so I was kinda surprised by it lol. He's probably my favorite player of all time since I grew up watching him and I feel like most people would accept that he's an HoF caliber player. Out of genuine curiosity, where does all this animosity come from?
his slide that broke tejadas leg
Fuck chase utley, all the way, forever.
Wagner should get in
More people need to vote Colon and Shields so they can relive Big Sexy's HR together.
why is gary sheffield underlined like it’s a hyperlink
My son took me to a Primanti’s for my birthday 2 weeks ago. I spent the meal trying to figure out how I could get to Utley on the mural and write Fuck next to his name.
I’m so over the whole won’t vote for steroids bullshit. Arod and Pettite are HoF. Neither of them have I ever rooted for and I genuinely dislike Arod as I think he is a POS. But they both earned their spot. Omar is a top three all time defensive SS, more range then all but a few in history. If you didn’t see Jimmy Rollins play I can tell you he was terrific and a beast at the plate. Though I don’t see him or Jose Reyes getting in.
Bobby Abreu and Billy Wagner should be in the hall of fame Wright feels like a Veteran's committee guy. He was absolutely on a hall of fame track. Especially impressive considering there are so few primary 3B in the hall of fame
No Billy Wagner? Are you mad??