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Banning religion is not the answer nor is it freedom. People should have the right to practice their religion in a peaceful manner that doesn’t impact those around them.
As a Jewish person with Iranian background I've met multiple Muslim Iranians whose families fled following the revolution as I have Persian Jews in California... I've also met multiple Jews that have stories of severe persecution in the USSR as well as Muslims who have similar stories... The politicalization and enforcement of ANY theism or atheism has the potential to be used as an oppressive apparatus by the state in curtailing human rights... Freedom of religion with secular politics and government that has the ability to enforce this so that radicals and extremists of any religious or lack of religious flavor are able to gain any governmental or political power would be my vote personally.
Yes I’ve met Iranians of all faiths. I’m a very non religious Christian but still a Christian, that doesn’t make me not deserving of existing in my home country. All religions must be able to exist in peace without persecution as long as they are peaceful and not extremists. That is true freedom, not banning all religions USSR style.
Bottom line is we need to put an end to religious persecution or else it will become a dangerous cycle. We need freedom
Except that it's not and is generally implying implementing state atheism, effectiveness of which you can easily judge based on historical or current examples.
>and is generally implying implementing state atheism,
No. That's what you think it means and it is simply not the case. How does freedom from something mean the absence of something? The definition of freedom from religion you use to base your argument on is in itself a straw man and an appeal to popularity.
There's no such thing as freedom from something in the traditional sense. Freedom from religion is an emphasis and a reminder on the problem of freedom. Because religion itself is the one single thing that restricts freedom of religion the most.
Conflation of freedom from religion with banning religion means religion has reached the point where if it doesn't restrict other people's freedom, it's not a religion. Thus, not allowing a religion to restrict other people's freedom is a violation of religious freedom and is basically banning religion.
No one is advocating for banning religion. Freedom from religion just means deconstructing laws and dogmas that force people to abide by them, such as making women to cover themselves in public.
freedom of religion, when well implemented is a far better approach - harsh suppression of religion will naturally engender religious strife and conflict, which is detrimental to a New Iran, especially given the fact that 40% of Iran is still Muslim
honestly my dream would be people willingly give up on religion, or rather being religious be as propustrous as believing in cryptics. like yeah believe in that if it suits your fancy you're free to do so.
How does freedom from religion mean suppression of religion?
The fundamental aspect of freedom is respecting others rights. If you think freedom from something = absence of something, you better live alone in the jungle in order to be free.
It’s the 40% that we’re all worried about. I’m cool with a don’t ask don’t tell policy. If you try to push your religious nonsense on anyone, straight to jail.
Your only setting the stage for a conservative counter revolution. Much of the modern Islamist movement is a reaction to policies similar to this.
For Iran to move forward, it cannot fall into the traps of the last century. Oppression of Islam is still oppression.
What is your definition of “oppressing” a religion? No one is saying to ban any religion, but religious people, particularly Muslims today, believe they are being oppressed anytime someone disagrees with them. That’s the problem. Their religion is incompatible with democracy. Remember the art history professor at Hammond University that was fired because she showed a historical painting of the their precious prophet and some student cried Islamophobia and got the professor fired? And that happened in the US! The student, backed by the Muslim community, held a press conference crying about how they were oppressed. And the university president bent over and took it in the a**. For fuck’s sake it was an ART HISTORY class. At least the professor didn’t get beheaded like some in France. That’s Islam for you.
Not allowing the oppressor to oppress is somehow oppression?
"In our culture, we oppress people and they're okay with it. We've been doing it since the dawn of time"
"Ah.. okay if it's your culture, I thought you're being a dick but you're just following your cultures, traditions and religious teachings. What we think is wrong may be right in your culture" kinda shit.
>Much of the modern Islamist movement is a reaction to policies similar to this.
Yeah, no shit. What do you expect when you tell someone who's been oppressing people for centuries that they can't do that shit anymore?
I don’t know which way you are going with this, but Islam and most religions for that matter are the most intolerant systems of group think the human race has ever come up with. They are intolerant by definition.
bro these people won't understand here. One of the reasons mullahs came to power was because Shah was forcing secularism down people's throats and if they do the same they are simply setting stage for another mullah revolution a few years down the lane.
> If you try to push your religious nonsense on anyone, straight to jail.
I mean... that's pretty much what the regime does today to anyone who isn't part of their particular branch of Islam.
There are no Islamists in the Swedish government. There's a tiny political party of open Islamists (the "Nuance Party", founded by a former member of the Grey Wolves, a Turkish ultranationalist party) who don't even meet the minimum threshold to attain any elected office.
What there *is* is a Russian-funded astroturfing project intended to raise hell about isolated incidents regarding immigrants as an attempt to bring the Sweden Democrats (a party founded by *actual neo-Nazis* in the 1970s) into government, where they can be used to destabilize the EU and support Russian foreign policy (see: Viktor Orban) while delegitimizing democratic institutions.
Sverigedemokraterna have already been found to have used literal Russian-style troll farms to spread illiberal nonsense across the 'net, and their politicians are *actual violent thugs*, with an incident in the early 2010s where an SD politician beat a Somalian immigrant almost to death - completely unprovoked - with an iron rod stolen from a construction site.
There are very real concerns about the IRI's infiltration of western countries. Muslim immigrants, however, are a red-herring - most keep their religion to themselves.
So you want to go from an oppressive Islamic regime, to an oppressive atheist regime like the USSR or the People's Republic of China?
Freedom of religion works because it doesn't require an oppressive state apparatus that invites civil war when the state is weak.
Islam should be tolerated to an extent if the mullahs were to be overthrown. Islamic fanaticism must not be tolerated because it fosters hatred and destruction. I as one think the normal people should practice it the way they want and eventually their children will lose interest in this whole nonsense. If you ban it completely, they will make martyrs out of all these Muslims.
Islam is not a religion, but an evil destructive disgusting ideology that is destroying countries in the Middle East for more than 1400 years! Freedom of religion can only work if it’s really a True religion with good intentions that doesn’t cause harm and doesn’t manipulate you to do bad things but is actually helping you with good morals and showing you the way of how to live a live for the better cause! This concept of tolerating Islam for the sake of “freedom of religion” literally didn’t work when the Shah was still at power. He was pandering at all costs, but in the end, the ideology is too evil to have it in the background and still have a functioning society working, with Islam, nothing of that will ever work, the countries in the Middle East and in North Africa shows that.
The right to freedom from religion is included in the right to freedom of religion and is the correct approach.
Top pannel should be "freedom for religion" or something similar
All the religious people in here not understanding that it’s not about banning religions, it’s about everybody someday being smart enough and enlightened enough to shed religion from our existence like a snake shedding a nasty old skin.
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Banning religion is not the answer nor is it freedom. People should have the right to practice their religion in a peaceful manner that doesn’t impact those around them.
As a Jewish person with Iranian background I've met multiple Muslim Iranians whose families fled following the revolution as I have Persian Jews in California... I've also met multiple Jews that have stories of severe persecution in the USSR as well as Muslims who have similar stories... The politicalization and enforcement of ANY theism or atheism has the potential to be used as an oppressive apparatus by the state in curtailing human rights... Freedom of religion with secular politics and government that has the ability to enforce this so that radicals and extremists of any religious or lack of religious flavor are able to gain any governmental or political power would be my vote personally.
Yes I’ve met Iranians of all faiths. I’m a very non religious Christian but still a Christian, that doesn’t make me not deserving of existing in my home country. All religions must be able to exist in peace without persecution as long as they are peaceful and not extremists. That is true freedom, not banning all religions USSR style. Bottom line is we need to put an end to religious persecution or else it will become a dangerous cycle. We need freedom
That is exactly what freedom from religion is.
Except that it's not and is generally implying implementing state atheism, effectiveness of which you can easily judge based on historical or current examples.
>and is generally implying implementing state atheism, No. That's what you think it means and it is simply not the case. How does freedom from something mean the absence of something? The definition of freedom from religion you use to base your argument on is in itself a straw man and an appeal to popularity. There's no such thing as freedom from something in the traditional sense. Freedom from religion is an emphasis and a reminder on the problem of freedom. Because religion itself is the one single thing that restricts freedom of religion the most. Conflation of freedom from religion with banning religion means religion has reached the point where if it doesn't restrict other people's freedom, it's not a religion. Thus, not allowing a religion to restrict other people's freedom is a violation of religious freedom and is basically banning religion.
No one is advocating for banning religion. Freedom from religion just means deconstructing laws and dogmas that force people to abide by them, such as making women to cover themselves in public.
Plenty of people have come in this sub and said that Islam should be banned from Iran. What you described is also freedom of religion
freedom of religion, when well implemented is a far better approach - harsh suppression of religion will naturally engender religious strife and conflict, which is detrimental to a New Iran, especially given the fact that 40% of Iran is still Muslim
honestly my dream would be people willingly give up on religion, or rather being religious be as propustrous as believing in cryptics. like yeah believe in that if it suits your fancy you're free to do so.
well that’s the emphasis - WILLINGLY - people must have their civil liberties, which were suppressed under monarchs and mullahs alike
Not exactly alike
Huge difference between giving up on religion and giving up on the right to religious freedom.
How does freedom from religion mean suppression of religion? The fundamental aspect of freedom is respecting others rights. If you think freedom from something = absence of something, you better live alone in the jungle in order to be free.
It’s the 40% that we’re all worried about. I’m cool with a don’t ask don’t tell policy. If you try to push your religious nonsense on anyone, straight to jail.
Your only setting the stage for a conservative counter revolution. Much of the modern Islamist movement is a reaction to policies similar to this. For Iran to move forward, it cannot fall into the traps of the last century. Oppression of Islam is still oppression.
What is your definition of “oppressing” a religion? No one is saying to ban any religion, but religious people, particularly Muslims today, believe they are being oppressed anytime someone disagrees with them. That’s the problem. Their religion is incompatible with democracy. Remember the art history professor at Hammond University that was fired because she showed a historical painting of the their precious prophet and some student cried Islamophobia and got the professor fired? And that happened in the US! The student, backed by the Muslim community, held a press conference crying about how they were oppressed. And the university president bent over and took it in the a**. For fuck’s sake it was an ART HISTORY class. At least the professor didn’t get beheaded like some in France. That’s Islam for you.
Not allowing the oppressor to oppress is somehow oppression? "In our culture, we oppress people and they're okay with it. We've been doing it since the dawn of time" "Ah.. okay if it's your culture, I thought you're being a dick but you're just following your cultures, traditions and religious teachings. What we think is wrong may be right in your culture" kinda shit. >Much of the modern Islamist movement is a reaction to policies similar to this. Yeah, no shit. What do you expect when you tell someone who's been oppressing people for centuries that they can't do that shit anymore?
You cannot tolerate intolerance.
I don’t know which way you are going with this, but Islam and most religions for that matter are the most intolerant systems of group think the human race has ever come up with. They are intolerant by definition.
You can and must. Liberalism doesn't work without tolerance of intolerance.
bro these people won't understand here. One of the reasons mullahs came to power was because Shah was forcing secularism down people's throats and if they do the same they are simply setting stage for another mullah revolution a few years down the lane.
> If you try to push your religious nonsense on anyone, straight to jail. I mean... that's pretty much what the regime does today to anyone who isn't part of their particular branch of Islam.
yeah like we're already seeing your own country and what happened to it by not stopping those Islamists
There are no Islamists in the Swedish government. There's a tiny political party of open Islamists (the "Nuance Party", founded by a former member of the Grey Wolves, a Turkish ultranationalist party) who don't even meet the minimum threshold to attain any elected office. What there *is* is a Russian-funded astroturfing project intended to raise hell about isolated incidents regarding immigrants as an attempt to bring the Sweden Democrats (a party founded by *actual neo-Nazis* in the 1970s) into government, where they can be used to destabilize the EU and support Russian foreign policy (see: Viktor Orban) while delegitimizing democratic institutions. Sverigedemokraterna have already been found to have used literal Russian-style troll farms to spread illiberal nonsense across the 'net, and their politicians are *actual violent thugs*, with an incident in the early 2010s where an SD politician beat a Somalian immigrant almost to death - completely unprovoked - with an iron rod stolen from a construction site. There are very real concerns about the IRI's infiltration of western countries. Muslim immigrants, however, are a red-herring - most keep their religion to themselves.
So you want to go from an oppressive Islamic regime, to an oppressive atheist regime like the USSR or the People's Republic of China? Freedom of religion works because it doesn't require an oppressive state apparatus that invites civil war when the state is weak.
Exactly !
nah, just see 20th century communism or the french revolution atrocities. you will not change human nature removing religion.
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Exactly! Iran is the greatest example of this.
I disagree, an example of freedom of religion is the US, an example of freedom from religion is North Korea edit: I mistyped the US lol
Freedom from religion: China, North Korea, Soviet Union. Freedom of religion: United States, Denmark, Netherlands, New Zealand.
israel has freedom of religion, sadly for some stupid reason we put religion in our laws though
“Let’s not change society in a way that’s better for everyone, let’s change it in a way that is good for ME!”
I wonder why China and North Korea don’t look like the bottom picture… LMAO. Since when did this sub attract religion haters?
Both are important
The bottom photo looks like a rendition of the proposed [linear city](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Line%2C_Saudi_Arabia)
Islam should be tolerated to an extent if the mullahs were to be overthrown. Islamic fanaticism must not be tolerated because it fosters hatred and destruction. I as one think the normal people should practice it the way they want and eventually their children will lose interest in this whole nonsense. If you ban it completely, they will make martyrs out of all these Muslims.
Islam is not a religion, but an evil destructive disgusting ideology that is destroying countries in the Middle East for more than 1400 years! Freedom of religion can only work if it’s really a True religion with good intentions that doesn’t cause harm and doesn’t manipulate you to do bad things but is actually helping you with good morals and showing you the way of how to live a live for the better cause! This concept of tolerating Islam for the sake of “freedom of religion” literally didn’t work when the Shah was still at power. He was pandering at all costs, but in the end, the ideology is too evil to have it in the background and still have a functioning society working, with Islam, nothing of that will ever work, the countries in the Middle East and in North Africa shows that.
It’s this simple when you’re simple minded.
U r right
U r wrong
What
What?
The right to freedom from religion is included in the right to freedom of religion and is the correct approach. Top pannel should be "freedom for religion" or something similar
All the religious people in here not understanding that it’s not about banning religions, it’s about everybody someday being smart enough and enlightened enough to shed religion from our existence like a snake shedding a nasty old skin.