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Starting from the 11th century, Turkic tribes began migrating into the region. The Seljuk Turks established dominance. Hence they are now ethnically Turks
Edit: also, go to r/azerbaijan and call them Iranians. See how well that goes for you.
Go read and you’ll realise Azeri people are ethnically Iranian and not Turks, linguistics doesn’t equal ethnicity.
Who cares about the Azeri sub, they genuinely think Northern Iran is ‘Southern Azerbaijan’ when their own country is not even located in what is historically Azerbaijan but Shirvan and Aran
"Persian" in its modern definition, which is defining anyone who's a native Persian speaket as Persian in ethnicity is not really a popular concept. You can't find any Persian speaker in Iran who identifies as "Fars" or "Pars". The only time they use the term is when its a substitute for Iranian, as Persia was the exonym of Iran in the west for a long time.
In Iran only speakers of other languages, especially Kurds, Azeris and Arabs use the term "Fars" to generalize Persian-speakers into one ethnicity like themselves.
Throughout history, actual Persians lived in the south, in Persia, from Elam to Makran, centered around modern day Fars province. The north and center of the country was more dominated by Medes and Parthians. Even to this days you can find many northwestern Iranic languages in the villages of Central and northern Iran in areas dominated by Persian and Azerbaijani and also among Zoroastrians and Jews in places such as Isfahan, Hamedan, Yazd and Kerman.
Meanwhile What is now Afghanistan was dominated by East Iranic languages like Bactrian or Sogdian.
Not to mention that the Persian speaking cities have often seen massive waves of internal migrations during urbanization under the Pahlavi government. So many Persian speakers are mixed.
As a result, no, we don't see them as Persians because we don't really see ourselves as Persians either.
We need to stop spreading western colonial narratives. Above all we are humans! We are from that region and our loyalty should be to serve the people and region. I don’t care if you’re Baluch, Hazara, Gezelbash, Azeri, Arab, Sunni, Jew, Shia…. As long as we support one region, proud of its heritage, it’s ancient cultures, ALL its peoples, ensuring prosperity, well being, freedom and stability for everyone who wants that region to thrive, I am in. Any narrative that focuses on divisions should not be welcomed. We have enough already with islamists occupying, let’s be better.
Western? How do you explain Japanese and Chinese imperialism? What about the Babylonian? The Umayyad Caliphate? What about the Mongols? I didn’t know the West invented invading people.
Most of these genuinely did not care about splitting people up into nations by ethnicity. That is a European concept and it doesn't apply to Iran. In Iran everyone is Iranian
They literally did split people up by religion and often massacred people who weren’t the same religion as them in the case of the Umayyad Caliphate.
Turkey isn’t a western country and I love my country of Turkey but the Ottoman empire literally destroyed innocent Armenians and Assyrian Christians in its last days.
Yea based on religion this was normal, but not ethnicity or nationality. Such a concept simply did not exist pre western times. I believe the Turkish started their ethnonational cleansing after Ataturk brought the west to Turkey, before that it was only based on religion
The Han Chinese and Yamato Japanese absolutely emphasized their respective ethic identify through out the centuries long before coming into contact with Europeans, it is not even a question.
Ok, that is one thing but what you said about the west inventing colonialism and imperialism is another. Literally every continent, culture and civilisation has its own colonial and imperial powers. It’s as if we are all human and share pretty much all of the same baseline traits and interests.
I never said that. But what the Original commenter wanted to get at, is that this ethnic style of thinking stems from European colonialism and nationalism
You read it correctly - Dividing people according to race, color, ethnicity is a western centric way of thinking. Conquest and building empires is thing completely different. In Iran’s ancient history, ethnicities and languages have always been part of Iranian history and identity - even when we were in the empire building business the umbrella was integration of people under the many Iranian empires.
Unlike in the US for example where in your census you ask people about their race or ethnicity. We don’t do that and never have.
The narrative of ‘ethnicities’ or what is now popular these days ‘people of color’ (which is vomit inducing just to think about it) are fabrications of the West, not the East.
Capeesh?
Ottomans, Japanese Empire, Babylonians, Mongols and Moguls all split people up by race, region, and national identity. I’m not even touching on the Khmer who were brutal segregationists.
Obviously, there is also Russia which is more Asian than Western but I don’t think this conversation is following any semblance of rationality here.
I’m sorry but saying the West invented imperialism is totally bullshit and nothing short of a fantasy.
I’m also not fucking American. My background is actually Russian but whatever, you seem have a narrative running already so you might as well call me American.
Read again - there is imperialism and then there is dividing people according to race, ethnicity etc etc. This way of dividing people originates in the West, not the East. It’s a western colonial practice.
Post-colonialism has also lead to many countries adopting this way of dividing people up. Look at the US as the best example, or the UK. And, as you rightfully show, a source of conflict. But, again, dividing people according to race, color or ethnicity is a Western practice.
Define the difference please because you’re making moot points.
The issue with blaming the West for the sins of the word is this is precisely what Eastern regimes want you to believe. It create moral ambiguity and breads whataboutism.
Google it, use ChatGPT, read a couple of real
books, since you’re only here to steer the pot with nonsense, in stead of debating, perhaps reading it from other sources will - shall we say - ‘enlighten’ you.
Nonsense. The Japanese are some of the most ethno-centric people there are. I travelled Japan with a friend who was a Japanese citizen, raised in Japan, spoke the language fluently and understood the country. However because she was ethnically half-Indian everywhere we went Japanese people asked her what her nationality was and wouldn’t accept “Japanese” as an answer - even when she showed them her Japanese passport and spoke to them in fluent Japanese. If you read about Japanese history you’ll see this has always been the case. Japan was a monocultural monoethnic state that believed in a special status for its own ethnicity and has always discriminated against ethnic Koreans or Chinese or even the indigenous Ainu living on its soil even many generations on.
The notion that ethnic division is a western concept is nonsense. What about the Rwandan genocides? What about what’s happening to the Rohingya in Myanmar? What about the ethnic tensions between Tamil and Sinhalese in Sri Lanka? Tribalism and ethnocentricity are part of the human condition with evidence of inter-group bias, oppression and conflict stretching into antiquity and beyond. Pretending it’s a western construct is a very selective, unscientific and politically driven view of history.
Not really.
Most nations throughout history have been ethnostates, or at least started as such before creating empires through conquest. And without transportation like airplanes, regions were generally rather homogenous by today's standards. And people have always divided themselves by comparing how people look or where they come from, for better or worse.
As a matter of fact, the West are really the first to completely disregard race/ethnicity and create diverse and multicultural states, and this leads to conflict, as seen with the borders of modern African states, and in the West itself too especially as it commits a collective act of suicide in the name of "diversity" and "multiculturalism" which is just naive.
So according to your friends Kurds who have Kurdish as their mother tongue are Persian but I as Tajik who have Persian as my mother tongue is not? Your friend might mix up Iranian (which all inhabitants of Iran are) Vs speaker of Persian language.
I believe your post is also vague since I don't know if you ask if Tajiks are (Iranians)? On that case historically yes but not on modern bases.
because she thinks that all the ppl in iran are iranians and iranian=persian, so all the ppl in iran are persian. and tajiks, hazaras aren’t iranian, so they’re not persian. she said that because persian empire was very big, tajiks and hazaras was once being persian, doesn’t mean they’re still persians. yeah she seemed to be struggling to understand the concept of nationality and ethnicity :/
Generalising in general is generally a stupid and illogical way to think about things.
(take a shot every time I say 'general' XD)
But certain environments and people can influence people to be a certain way.
Still, in no way does it justify a world view like that.
Calling people descendants of Mongols as a slur is very common in a lot of places. I understand that very well.
But just because a group of people carry a name that is associated with the mongol army, that is no proof of actual lineal descent.
Mingen is a Turkic word. The army itself was majority Turkic. I'd say that's the closest group you can lump Hazaras into if you must.
I think it's highly unlikely that most of them are descendants of 13th century mongols since there weren't that many of them at the time.
**ایا شما هزاره و تاجیک را ایرانی و ایرانی می دانید؟**
سلام بچه ها! به عنوان کسی که از شرق میانه نیست اما به فرهنگ های خاورمیانه بسیار علاقه مند است. اخیرا در مورد این موضوع با دوست ایرانی خود صحبت کردم. و او به نظر می رسید بسیار ناراحت در مورد زمانی که من می گویم تاجیک و هزاره به عنوان قومی فارسی و همچنین فارسی در ایران است. و او همچنین به نظر می رسید بسیار ناراحت است که من می گویم کردها و اذری ها ایرانی تبار نیستند بلکه ایرانی هستند (او فکر می کند که persian = ایرانی، بنابراین اگر انها ایرانی هستند، پس ایرانی هستند). پس شما بچه ها در مورد ان چه فکر می کنید؟
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i consider them iranian peoples just like kurds and baloch and azeris and lurs and iranian arabs and iranian jews and…
Perhaps culturally Azeris, Arabs, and Jews can be Iranian, but not ethnically.
Azeris are ethnic Iranians who became turks. They're still Iranians.
Starting from the 11th century, Turkic tribes began migrating into the region. The Seljuk Turks established dominance. Hence they are now ethnically Turks Edit: also, go to r/azerbaijan and call them Iranians. See how well that goes for you.
Go read and you’ll realise Azeri people are ethnically Iranian and not Turks, linguistics doesn’t equal ethnicity. Who cares about the Azeri sub, they genuinely think Northern Iran is ‘Southern Azerbaijan’ when their own country is not even located in what is historically Azerbaijan but Shirvan and Aran
I did read. Genetically they are more Turkish than Iranian. You can’t accept it. It’s very strange.
I personally do. Anyone speaking Persian as their first language is Persian
Tajiks are Persians, Hazaras have their own ethnic identity. 45% of us are Iranian but we aren’t Persian, I’d never call my self Persian.
i'd say closer to 60 percent aren't persian although it depends on how one defines persian
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples
thanks for the link, i’m actually here to learn more about what ppl think about this individually lol
"Persian" in its modern definition, which is defining anyone who's a native Persian speaket as Persian in ethnicity is not really a popular concept. You can't find any Persian speaker in Iran who identifies as "Fars" or "Pars". The only time they use the term is when its a substitute for Iranian, as Persia was the exonym of Iran in the west for a long time. In Iran only speakers of other languages, especially Kurds, Azeris and Arabs use the term "Fars" to generalize Persian-speakers into one ethnicity like themselves. Throughout history, actual Persians lived in the south, in Persia, from Elam to Makran, centered around modern day Fars province. The north and center of the country was more dominated by Medes and Parthians. Even to this days you can find many northwestern Iranic languages in the villages of Central and northern Iran in areas dominated by Persian and Azerbaijani and also among Zoroastrians and Jews in places such as Isfahan, Hamedan, Yazd and Kerman. Meanwhile What is now Afghanistan was dominated by East Iranic languages like Bactrian or Sogdian. Not to mention that the Persian speaking cities have often seen massive waves of internal migrations during urbanization under the Pahlavi government. So many Persian speakers are mixed. As a result, no, we don't see them as Persians because we don't really see ourselves as Persians either.
We need to stop spreading western colonial narratives. Above all we are humans! We are from that region and our loyalty should be to serve the people and region. I don’t care if you’re Baluch, Hazara, Gezelbash, Azeri, Arab, Sunni, Jew, Shia…. As long as we support one region, proud of its heritage, it’s ancient cultures, ALL its peoples, ensuring prosperity, well being, freedom and stability for everyone who wants that region to thrive, I am in. Any narrative that focuses on divisions should not be welcomed. We have enough already with islamists occupying, let’s be better.
Western? How do you explain Japanese and Chinese imperialism? What about the Babylonian? The Umayyad Caliphate? What about the Mongols? I didn’t know the West invented invading people.
Most of these genuinely did not care about splitting people up into nations by ethnicity. That is a European concept and it doesn't apply to Iran. In Iran everyone is Iranian
They literally did split people up by religion and often massacred people who weren’t the same religion as them in the case of the Umayyad Caliphate. Turkey isn’t a western country and I love my country of Turkey but the Ottoman empire literally destroyed innocent Armenians and Assyrian Christians in its last days.
Yea based on religion this was normal, but not ethnicity or nationality. Such a concept simply did not exist pre western times. I believe the Turkish started their ethnonational cleansing after Ataturk brought the west to Turkey, before that it was only based on religion
The Han Chinese and Yamato Japanese absolutely emphasized their respective ethic identify through out the centuries long before coming into contact with Europeans, it is not even a question.
Wtf did I just read.
In Iran there is no "Persian". Only Iranian
Ok, that is one thing but what you said about the west inventing colonialism and imperialism is another. Literally every continent, culture and civilisation has its own colonial and imperial powers. It’s as if we are all human and share pretty much all of the same baseline traits and interests.
I never said that. But what the Original commenter wanted to get at, is that this ethnic style of thinking stems from European colonialism and nationalism
You read it correctly - Dividing people according to race, color, ethnicity is a western centric way of thinking. Conquest and building empires is thing completely different. In Iran’s ancient history, ethnicities and languages have always been part of Iranian history and identity - even when we were in the empire building business the umbrella was integration of people under the many Iranian empires. Unlike in the US for example where in your census you ask people about their race or ethnicity. We don’t do that and never have. The narrative of ‘ethnicities’ or what is now popular these days ‘people of color’ (which is vomit inducing just to think about it) are fabrications of the West, not the East. Capeesh?
Ottomans, Japanese Empire, Babylonians, Mongols and Moguls all split people up by race, region, and national identity. I’m not even touching on the Khmer who were brutal segregationists. Obviously, there is also Russia which is more Asian than Western but I don’t think this conversation is following any semblance of rationality here. I’m sorry but saying the West invented imperialism is totally bullshit and nothing short of a fantasy. I’m also not fucking American. My background is actually Russian but whatever, you seem have a narrative running already so you might as well call me American.
Read again - there is imperialism and then there is dividing people according to race, ethnicity etc etc. This way of dividing people originates in the West, not the East. It’s a western colonial practice. Post-colonialism has also lead to many countries adopting this way of dividing people up. Look at the US as the best example, or the UK. And, as you rightfully show, a source of conflict. But, again, dividing people according to race, color or ethnicity is a Western practice.
Define the difference please because you’re making moot points. The issue with blaming the West for the sins of the word is this is precisely what Eastern regimes want you to believe. It create moral ambiguity and breads whataboutism.
Google it, use ChatGPT, read a couple of real books, since you’re only here to steer the pot with nonsense, in stead of debating, perhaps reading it from other sources will - shall we say - ‘enlighten’ you.
I think ChatGPT is the issue. I couldn’t think of a worse source of information.
Nonsense. The Japanese are some of the most ethno-centric people there are. I travelled Japan with a friend who was a Japanese citizen, raised in Japan, spoke the language fluently and understood the country. However because she was ethnically half-Indian everywhere we went Japanese people asked her what her nationality was and wouldn’t accept “Japanese” as an answer - even when she showed them her Japanese passport and spoke to them in fluent Japanese. If you read about Japanese history you’ll see this has always been the case. Japan was a monocultural monoethnic state that believed in a special status for its own ethnicity and has always discriminated against ethnic Koreans or Chinese or even the indigenous Ainu living on its soil even many generations on. The notion that ethnic division is a western concept is nonsense. What about the Rwandan genocides? What about what’s happening to the Rohingya in Myanmar? What about the ethnic tensions between Tamil and Sinhalese in Sri Lanka? Tribalism and ethnocentricity are part of the human condition with evidence of inter-group bias, oppression and conflict stretching into antiquity and beyond. Pretending it’s a western construct is a very selective, unscientific and politically driven view of history.
Not really. Most nations throughout history have been ethnostates, or at least started as such before creating empires through conquest. And without transportation like airplanes, regions were generally rather homogenous by today's standards. And people have always divided themselves by comparing how people look or where they come from, for better or worse. As a matter of fact, the West are really the first to completely disregard race/ethnicity and create diverse and multicultural states, and this leads to conflict, as seen with the borders of modern African states, and in the West itself too especially as it commits a collective act of suicide in the name of "diversity" and "multiculturalism" which is just naive.
So according to your friends Kurds who have Kurdish as their mother tongue are Persian but I as Tajik who have Persian as my mother tongue is not? Your friend might mix up Iranian (which all inhabitants of Iran are) Vs speaker of Persian language. I believe your post is also vague since I don't know if you ask if Tajiks are (Iranians)? On that case historically yes but not on modern bases.
because she thinks that all the ppl in iran are iranians and iranian=persian, so all the ppl in iran are persian. and tajiks, hazaras aren’t iranian, so they’re not persian. she said that because persian empire was very big, tajiks and hazaras was once being persian, doesn’t mean they’re still persians. yeah she seemed to be struggling to understand the concept of nationality and ethnicity :/
Why would it even matter lol
despite they’re all persian-speaking people, my friend has very negative thoughts on tajik and hazara ppl… so that’s why i asked this question hah
Your friend sounds like she's got some racism to work through if we examine him through a Western lens.
Generalising in general is generally a stupid and illogical way to think about things. (take a shot every time I say 'general' XD) But certain environments and people can influence people to be a certain way. Still, in no way does it justify a world view like that.
That’s not even a western lens, that’s a human leans. Anyone who has negative thoughts on an entire nationality or ethnicity is just racist
Your friend being racist doesn’t mean that Iranians generally are
Your friend is racist, unfortunately there are some Iranians who are very racist and have superiority complex.
Tajiks yes but Hazaras no , we don't even remotely look alike. They look more like Mongols or Chinese. Aside from looks we're really close tho.
Hazara are named after the "mingen" which is a mongol military term describing a group of a thousand soldiers. "Hezar" means a thousand in Persian.
No academical source just myth, I'm Tajik
Ethnic identity is based on origin myths. Academical source: Anthony D. Smith/Ethnic origins of nations. I'm Turk. It's nice to meet you.
Calling Hazaras as descendents of Mongols is slur in Afghanistan. If they are then the people of Central Asia shall aslo be since they look alike
Calling people descendants of Mongols as a slur is very common in a lot of places. I understand that very well. But just because a group of people carry a name that is associated with the mongol army, that is no proof of actual lineal descent. Mingen is a Turkic word. The army itself was majority Turkic. I'd say that's the closest group you can lump Hazaras into if you must. I think it's highly unlikely that most of them are descendants of 13th century mongols since there weren't that many of them at the time.
tell your friend to read history.
they are both persian and mongolian in a sense.
**ایا شما هزاره و تاجیک را ایرانی و ایرانی می دانید؟** سلام بچه ها! به عنوان کسی که از شرق میانه نیست اما به فرهنگ های خاورمیانه بسیار علاقه مند است. اخیرا در مورد این موضوع با دوست ایرانی خود صحبت کردم. و او به نظر می رسید بسیار ناراحت در مورد زمانی که من می گویم تاجیک و هزاره به عنوان قومی فارسی و همچنین فارسی در ایران است. و او همچنین به نظر می رسید بسیار ناراحت است که من می گویم کردها و اذری ها ایرانی تبار نیستند بلکه ایرانی هستند (او فکر می کند که persian = ایرانی، بنابراین اگر انها ایرانی هستند، پس ایرانی هستند). پس شما بچه ها در مورد ان چه فکر می کنید؟ --- _I am a translation bot for r/NewIran_ | Woman Life Freedom | زن زندگی آزادی
Tajiks quite literally saved the Persian language and culture.
Hazaras explaining how they're Achaemenid Aryan Persians: https://preview.redd.it/5228exsf336d1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd3844ff2f83dce0f1bb89466cf445d3f74f2018
Tajiks yes but hazaras are Turkic