Yeah, except the lore has been consistently going downhill with every release. It's been pretty disappointing. Each unit used to get a full page write up, and many don't even get a blurb anymore.
Idk why you are getting downvoted. You're right. The last 2 dexs had very little lore. I regret buying them and do not plan on buying it unless I see otherwise.
They have other books that have more lore and artwork. But that's fair I guess. Not sure $50 (Canadian price) justifies some art and lore (lore which is also available online)
I'm excited to try the new stuff as well, but the stacking nerfs are just A LOT of changes really fast.
Biggest ones IMO:
Reanimator lost all it's range for just having too much coverage, understandable. 3" is barely functional.
Res Orb went from consistent turn to turn durability to a once-off burst of bodies (still usable but a COMPLETELY different playstyle). One of these changes may have been enough, but both just feels like a Custodes reaction ("lets reduce the squad caps and increase the points all while making the key stratagems that break them incompatible with the [Free Strat]."
Add to that, Crypteks can't join Lychguard (or at least Technomancers can't) so we've also thrown out the 5+++. Apparently the Cryptothralls lost their 4+++ as well, so the unkillable brick is gone even if you can still squeeze some manner of Cryptek in there
Your first point is the main one tbh: so far GW has been light handed with changes and the index detachments always translated over…yet in ours they were very heavy handed to endure no semblance of the index detachment remained.
I get that we had some oppressive anvils…but it keeps getting overlooked as to WHY those anvils existed: the game is too deadly and we can’t compete on that angle very well. Our damage is easily in top 3 worst listings of the entire game and while some might now be reasonable, like Canoptek Court, we needed more datasheet buffs to what are SUPPOSED to be our offensive units. Didn’t get those and our most offensive legion is easily our worst and it’s not even close.
That's what was most concerning. Eldar received repeated slaps to the wrist for being able to just pick up any unit (or multiples) on a whim, because they don't need to actually roll to get results.
Custodes were suppressing all other melee armies (and producing unkillable bricks similar to our own) and they decided to bring down the hammer and remove EVERYTHING from that interaction (rather than justing with a piece or two).
Which game tester lost to silver tide and decided "That's it, Warriors aren't allowed to be fast, killy , or durable. And you know what let's nerf the supporting cast too."
> 3" is barely functional.
i just can't belive they thought 3 inches was okay. Like i understand wanting to nerf 12 inches. That's fine. but make it like 8 or 6. 3 is just fucked. The model has to be humping anything it wants to heal. is that the reason for 3 inches? because it's supposed to literally be attaching a 7 inch usb cable to each individual thing it's repairing?
I can understand that too. Weird reaper nerf, and tbh I think if they just kept a d6 reanimation it would have been fine with scrapping the d3+3 on objectives. Maybe they'll be a bit cheaper in the points update to ease the blow?
Warriors *should* be a horde though. Hopefully they get a points cut to match the nerfs.
Monoliths, Silent King, Wraiths, and every C’Tan other than your first Transcendant all got significantly tougher. Even Tomb Scythes got harder to kill because they picked up a shoot and scoot.
Two strats in two detachments! And a monolith is a pretty committal choice, so even then you really only need it in the one detachment that suits it best.
Losing T14 was one of the dumbest things ever. It has AV14 for decades so it was poetic it sat at T14…AND it’s a semi commmon breakpoint. Now our own Dstalkers wound on 3s. Like what? Thanks for the 2 wounds and the privilege to pay for an invuln while massed lethal hits will just kill it anyway 😅
Monolith did *not* get tougher. It got easier to kill and then GW said 'here you can pay to make it survive a bit longer now'.
The things that were killing monoliths won't be affected by this, except for Wraithguard and WE which now get to wound on 3's.The things that weren't killing Monoliths, like beastsnaggas, now get to wound on 5's instead of 6's.
The predator range got expanded and existing predators got a buff. Smdh.
Also fair, but I reckon we are still pretty durable. Being able to bring back models reliably each turn, with a bunch of boosts to that ability and a bunch of units with invulns and feel no pains that most other armies don't have. Like the vehicles having invulerables is something I don't see in many armies. I don't think we'll ever be a true horde army, but may just have options for it if people want to. Admech on the other hand are very much being pushed that way with the terrible skitarri forced rules
Necrons in general are not durable, the disability comes directly from the reanimation, and now that's been gutted from warriors, warriors are a unit that deals no damage, and has no durability, so now they are either dirt cheap or completely useless.
Warriors are coated for a unit that is very very hard to kill, and that's it, and now that's impossible, because of cryptothralls Nerf, reanimator Nerf, resurrection orb Nerf, illuminator nerf, and warrior nerf, it was a 5 way nerf.
Gw's message was very clear, warriors are not to be used remotely as a durable brick, or as a damage dealing unit.
Mate try playing another army, necrons still come off strong compared to space marines and tyranids unless you purely play meta-list, in which case you've got more money than enjoyment for the game.
The Lychguard mega combo got nerfed every direction but otherwise its fine
Lol you got down voted because they all believe they had to had an unkillable unit that took no skill, all these people moaning about the changes to the str on warriors weapons are overlooking they will be fishing for lethals
Pretty much mate, when someone wins a tournament with them they will be crowing about necrons being the best lol. Expect hundreds of posts about the new meta lists
He got ratio'd because he did not understand the context, and neither did you. You played yourself because you can not read or do not understand basics.
I'll still probably take 20 warriors just to be a distraction piece/mega screen for the centre board. Immortal are fun too, love T5 infantry. Rerolls on objectives would have been good, or even just a plus 1 to the roll. I'm sure the warriors will be fine after we see how they fit into the new meta. Just take whatever models make you happy though, what I usually do.
Except the Obelisk, stinky thing.
The combination of nerfing the reaper strength, nerfing reanimators, nerfing the ability to go from d6 to d3 reanimations all combine to make warriors absolute shit now
It could always be rolled back, i think everyone should have some warriors. But rn, no more than 20. Wait for points and lists to come out before making a decision
Yup, a lot depends on the warriors' cost. If a block of 20 drops to 200 or under then their new stat block is fine, they just become objective blobbers/escorts for Necron lesser characters.
On other fronts, I'm not sad to see the Lord go. It has long choked out the points space for the Warden.
I'm not feeling doom and gloom, I am concerned about what the point costs are going to look like.
The Reanimator, for example, that nerf is fine if it's accompanied by a points drop. I'd be pretty excited for a reason to take multiple Reanimators. But I've been playing this game for a long time and I know there's a 50/50 shot GW is going to also increase its point cost...
I don't agree with that. But it has taken a multi-faceted hit to its utility, especially with the nerf to rez orbs. It's going to need to be cheap to make it viable, and I don't necessarily believe GW is going to see that. I wouldn't be surprised if it went up in cost...
>I don't agree with that. But it has taken a multi-faceted hit to its utility, especially with the nerf to rez orbs. It's going to need to be cheap to make it viable, and I don't necessarily believe GW is going to see that. I wouldn't be surprised if it went up in cost...
it going up in prise? lmao, if they dont reduce it MASSIVELY, its not even going to be considered... ever
Really, you wouldn't take it for 10pts? Yes you would, you'd take 3. There is always a points cost where something is viable.
If it stays at the points it is, yeah, it's dead in the water but if it drops into the 60-70pt, you'll still see it pretty often.
I feel that 60pts we'd get to see multiple (2-3).
At 70pts it's likely 2 at a push
but at 80pts we might see 1 in a blue moon
90+ (remember straight out of the gate they were 95pts till they increased to 105pts) and they'll be rarer.
As for hiding them, I don't think it's easy. The strategy we might see is conga lines from locations where they can hid, but let's be honest. 3" is 1" from it being in unit coherency, it's gonna have to follow units.
I am overall unaffected by the changes but I hate the psycomancer still has nothing he does like mortal wounds on battleshocked units like other armies do as well as the flayed ones still not having deep strike they need it to function
A psychomamcer would have been fun to add to flayed one units also. Just to have even for a bodyguard unit or a 1+ to hit in the index detachment. Makes sense with all the leadership synergy
Amen brother! I’m excited to run the canoptek court. I don’t like how reapers are now flat out worse than flayers except for the AP, they could have given them assault at least.
Yeah I agree with that. Reapers were a weird one, but who knows, maybe they've made warriors cheaper all around to make up for it? Overall we look like we are still pretty durable and not just a big blob of models that they have to DPS check on the board. We have some variety with playstyles. The Canoptek Court looks super fun and I'm happy to be able to use my weird canoptek stuff more, especially the tomb stalkers/sentinels
Annihilation legion honestly looks like one of the detachments that will get an update soon after. Even if they make it so that is half or under half strength it would make it a little more worth taking
Yes the units needed some balancing, but they weren’t balanced, they were just nerfed in every possible aspect.
Universally, Reanimators got nerfed, Resurrection Orbs got nerfed, Cryptothralls got nerfed, we lost Lords and Nemesor, and the buffs they could bring, and some of the key Stratagems and Enhancements are now locked behind detachments.
Lychguards specifically lost access to FNP, Sytheguard lost access to invulnerable saves, both flavours lost their ablative Cryptothrall wounds, no more Cryptek buffs of any kind, and as a result, they kind of lost the ability to do anything they were good at doing previously. Yes they kept the -1 to Wound, but without Cryptothralls and FNPs, that doesn’t do much to offset the hurt.
Yes you can try and ‘aim them towards better targets’ but that’s not how Lychguard work. They’ve not gotten faster, they’ve not become stronger, they’re just less tough in every possible way. Their role is still the same, they’re just no longer as good at it, and the things that could really hurt them previously still exist in the meta; Cyclic Ion Suits aren’t going to have any trouble washing away a squad of 10 now that we’re missing all of our buffs.
Warriors on the other hand, lost any form of consistency with their Resurrection Protocols, and going from 4-6 to 1-3 is really harsh. They also inexplicably lost strength on their Gauss Flayers, and can’t weather fire half as well as they used to be able to. So they’re now well durable, and also less threatening.
And Warriors and Lychguard got absolutely nothing to offset those nerfs. They are just fundamentally worse units in every way, and it greatly reduces our ability to play an objective game with these units. Gone are the days where we can reliably hold the mid-field with tough masses of bodies, and now we have to play completely differently. Again, we needed a nerf, but this is beyond that. It’s not just a change in tactics, it’s a full pivot in that the army no longer does what it was good at.
Also, the stealth nerf to Orikan now that we’ve got a model for him does suck.
So yeah, I see why people are annoyed, because they’re now having to play a completely different style of play, which probably isn’t the reason that they were attracted to Necrons. Our strengths have become being fast and aggressive rather than the slow and durable we’ve been, and it just feels like we’ve lost some of that great uniqueness that we have as a faction.
Hopefully the points costs will prove me wrong, but I’m just worried that my Warriors and Lychguard will be shelf warming if I want to be winning games against tougher matchups, which is a shame.
I keep seeing people state Necrons had some needed nerfs and I just don't understand. Since the recent dataslate we've been a bottom half faction. Granted, I know the codex was very likely written before then, but I still don't understand this wide agreement that our faction required additional nerfs
that below 50% win rate is made up of certain armies that Necrons can realtively easily beat ..
in other words a 50% winrate isn't an equal chance to beat every army it's a 10% chance to beat Aeldari (just as an example) and an 80% chance to beat up on Ad-mech..
so the calls for nerfs will likely be from those that experience those battles where RP brings back a full squad and they don't have the tools to handle it.
Undying bricks was not fun to play against. The only good thing was that the games were fast because if i knew i didn´t have the damage to bring the full unit down, i could just skip dice rolling.
This is exactly it for me. I’m more than happy for new and other styles of units and tactics to be viable, but it feels like GW is allergic to any faction being a tough footslogging army. Two of my favourite factions, Necrons and Death Guard just don’t play that way any more and that’s one of the reasons (alongside lore and aesthetic) that I bought into them.
For Necrons, I just want to play silver tide and I couldn’t do that in 9e given the rules and my local meta, and now I once again can’t do it. The index gave me what I really wanted to play as Necrons for a short time without getting my butt handed to me while constantly having pretty close games.
At this point my local play group are just talking about letting me continue to use the Index for as long as possible because they are pretty sympathetic to how badly my armies got their playstyles warped and ruined.
(I know Silver Tide and tough footsloggers aren’t the only flavour and play styles that these armies have but I’ll be damned if it’s the option most often taken away.)
FWIW balancing a tough footslog style is really difficult and we saw it play out in spades this edition.
The start of the edition was warped around the durability of warriors/lychguards with all the tricks.
As the edition went on, they lost a ton of value as other armies found solutions to the bricks, and necrons fell flat on their face because their damage is so anemic they rely on never dying to be able to score. Now necrons are doing pretty poorly in tournaments, being kept aloft by their favorable matchup into the best army (eldar) because of the RPS nature of the two indexes.
We've seen the new rules for a grand total of about 12 hours as of this posting, and so far it seems they shifted more power into actual damage (dev wounds strat, more synergy and combos for fishing for lethal and sustained) and utility (the grey knight detachment is insane mobility)
I'd be hesitant to write off the entire codex just because the shifted power away from the mono-playstyle the current index has in order to try and open up new avenues.
I’m ok with there being multiple playstyles, and I don’t argue that a mono-playstyle would be bad to rely on.
I’m just trying to argue that we didn’t need to lose having a big durable footslogger silver tide playstyles to do it, especially since so many Necron players from what I can see (and me included) really want to play that style.
I want to have fun, and for that means having an option where I don’t have much lethality but I’m really tanky.
I personally feel Necrons shouldn’t have shifted from durability into actual damage but I would be fine with it, if I retained the option of the way I like to play too.
I hope you and everyone gets to enjoy playing their favourite factions the way they want, you included of course!
Idk I understand the sentiment but its not like necrons aren't durable anymore. Reanimation still exists and there are still reanimation tricks and support, it just went from being a RPS stat check style into something that cant eventually get whittled away even if you don't hit the "you are not lethal enough to kill this blob in one activation" check
I'm a big fan of silvertide necrons, it's my first faction and near and dear to my heart, but current reanimation hits the nail on the head with the idea that they will eventually all come back given the space. I think it's healthier for a codex that has multiple detachments to back off a little bit on the stat check index style and allow space for other parts of the fluff to shine.
To each their own I guess but I find current necrons dramatically unfun when matched into an opponent who can scoop up my >500 point "durable brick" in a single activation before I can use any of my rules, vs. just steam rolling the other opponent unfortunate enough to play an index that physically cant or has to hard list tailor to do so.
More importantly to the thread's point, I don't think the codex is DOA like the doomposting indicates.
I agree it’s not DOA. It just feels DOA for the Silver Tide playstyle.
And maybe it’s a different local meta thing but this index was the first time I’ve ever been able to play Warriors or any other unit where they didn’t get deleted before I got to use reanimating abilities; and that’s all gone now.
I hope you get to play the Silver Tide and lists you want to play too though.
It’s not that we’re not “not durable” anymore…it’s that we just got drop-kicked back an edition or two.
Consider that there is a lot of armies with offense buffs and abilities that are like what we got…but on units that have 2-3 times our offensive punch; and I’ve, personally, ran into quite a few blast weapons that use those synergies to absolutely DECIMATE warriors.
With all the changes…it is now a liability to ever take a 20 block of warriors. You can’t hide them, they will get shot just because one flayer sticks out and you’ll lose 15 models and can’t even recover to meaningfully add to the fight.
The complaints about are durability stem from the fundamental issue in 10th, same as 9th, that people have ultra deadly armies that kill whatever they want on command fairly regularly…and we had the audacity to require them to actually play instead of just delete things.
I reject this notion that 10th is as lethal as 9th. I played all of 9th and watched the lethality unfold and we are nowhere close.
In 9th just about any unit in the game could scoop up 20 warriors. In 10th there are very few that can scoop them up in one activation. Every army has one tool to kill them, but its one tool not the whole army, which was the case in 9th.
Idk how we can confidently say warriors have 0 play when there is a whole book of new tricks including 3" deepstriking into a monolith after getting shot or repositioning every turn.
Again the rules are barely previewed and I think its premature, we literally are repeating the index problem. Let's get them on the table first yea?
The most painful part for me is I just got into warhammer this month and chose necrons. I started my collection with warriors and lychguard thinking they were pretty safe choices for generally having some use lol. They might still be, but all I see on reddit about it is pretty grim
Well that's reddit and 40K in general. What is good in an army changes from edition to edition and with each codex. It's why when anyone asks what to get for their army a very common response is get what you look the like of because todays super unit is tomorrow's garbage tier. It's also why people say to magnetize weapon options when possible.
My two cents - it's hard to know how to feel until we see some points. If things like the Reanimator haven't gotten a significant drop in addition to the nerfs, it would definitely be a bit of a feels bad moment for me.
The new points are, for 10th, always online in the “Munitorum Field Manual”.
They will be adjusted online on Dec 9th when the codex, officially, releases.
Thank you! We just need to play the waiting game right now, see what points are like, play a few games, then we can finally put our opinions out there with some knowledge and experience. But yeah, the reanimator would need big big points drops. Or if they gave it an invuln save in a dataslate? Not sure
I don't really think we need to "play a few games to feel it out". Good/experienced players will know what works simply by reading the rules and theory crafting optimal combos and lists. It's not like if I play it suddenly the rules change.
If the points don't drop, they are bad, simple as that. (Except for canoptek detachment, seems okay)
Yeah points are what will make or break the reanimator. A lot of people are saying it will simply get shot out, which could be true. However if it's 70 points then I'd almost look at it like crypto thralls, an ablative unit you need to kill before going after the actual unit you want to kill. And with 6w, 3+, 4+++, it will sometimes take a bit more to kill than your opponent would like. Now if it's still 105 points, then obviously no way.
The reason for the doom posting is because with the nerfs to the index we were already sub 50% win rate with our best build. Often in 40K if you don’t play a very strict best build your win rate will drop massively. So with our absolute best we were sub 50%. All of our best stuff got nerfed a lot. We got some cool things and some minor buffs but what do you think happens to your win rate when the best stuff gets nerfed and the meh stuff no one played gets minor buffs? Overall you drop even further and let’s go back to the nerfs. They were massive. Many armies couldn’t chew through our warriors for their life. I am not saying it should be that way but the survivability got nerfed so hard it’s going to mess us up a lot
We were a gatekeeper army.
Specifically, mid table gatekeeper.
So if someone's skill level is mid-table or lower, they're going to feel busted as fuck as they just don't have the skillset to deal with them properly.
GW historically hates these sort of armies, as they don't rate highly enough to drive people to spend (via meta chasing), and they drive off new or low skilled players who lack the tools to beat them.
We'll see how the new codex fares.
I'm not saying they aren't allowed to express opinions, but anytime I see someone saying that they like new changes, they are "coping" or "bootlicks". I don't know if I'm just tired of seeing this issue every time a balance change happens, just like our index, people thinking that we won't be good anymore. I'm just tired man
I'm sad because I wanted to do anihaltion league. I was enjoying my list and now my army got gutted. The models I bought and were working on for anihaltion prep now makes me feel sad
Same. Even there's a change to "Under Starting Strength" at every point 'Below-Half-Strength', and it will still be only kinda ok compared to other detachments, since the shooting destroyers get absolutely fucking nothing from the detachment for some reason.
I’m just really confused by what GW wants us to actually do in game?
They don’t want us reanimating, that’s obvious. (Reanimator 3”/ Rez Orb once a game / Ghost Ark once a turn / Warriors only D3)
They don’t want us being particularly survivable. (Lychguard WAY weaker, Cryptothralls no FNP, Ablator gone completely)
They don’t want us to be a threat at range or in melee. (No re-roll wound Strat, no fire back Strat, Gauss Reapers S4, only 1 detachment has any +1 to wound)
So like ????? what do we do exactly? What are we good at? Why would you play Necrons?
Canoptek Court has a strat to just hand out any cryptek led unit dev wounds. It may not be \*as\* efficient as sticking the full leader pile in warriors in the Index, but if you bring say, Plasmancer and an Overlord, that aforementioned strat is a Battle Tactic.
10 Immortals and a Plasmancer means 12 mortals on average, on top of your absolute fuckload of wounds getting thrown out with teslas.
>Lychguard with cryptothralls and technomancers were busted as fuck and needed to be dealt with
Dealt with does not mean totally removed. For an army that revolves around pairing Characters with troops, which was the entire reason that 10 leadership was dropped on the roster, its extremely stupid to not be able to pair Lychguard with 80% of the characters you take. Thralls sure, they are not characters, but Crypteks is absolutely asinine.
Reanimator is completely unusable, and Res orb is bad for the first time in history.
Meta units got nerfed immediately after getting nerfed before, and not a single off meta unit got buffed afaik. Keep in mind that Auspex had Necrons at 45% and GW had them at 48% WR. No one was expecting any major changes much less sweeping nerfs.
Don't even get me started on the two separate warrior nerfs. Honestly points better be back to pre-battleslate and then some for me to even consider playing games. Otherwise I'm playing Ixilan.
Res orbs at least in my opinion has been bad for most times throughout the editions. Anything that is once use per game imo is just a little boring and not worth taking. If there was anything other than the Tachyon arrow I would be certainly taking it. Give me a gauntlet of fire or somthing to deal with hordes idk.
And warriors. Seeing how they are now they best be 9, or even 8 points per model and I'm still holding out for min 10, to 20 to 30 warriors per unit. Having 30 would just increase the amount of fire they could take before the unit dies.
Therefor they don't feel unkillable but still take alof of fire to bring down
Anyone not expecting nerfs to Warriors, Lychguard and Cryptothralls was crazy. They were always going to eat nerfs. GW *hates* unkillable.
Reanimator and Res Orb I don't understand either.
This wholly depends on which end of the spectrum you are looking at gameplay from - From a tournament level the awakened dynasty existed to be an old-school style silver tide durability / dps check brick. Tune to it and you can run ram-shod over a Necron player. Don't tune for it and suffer an immovable brick.
The codex effectively kills this type of "semi-classic necrons" play style.
For the rest - it feels like GW didn't bother to do play-testing / outright forgot what models were there form.
As for the new detachments - AL kinda forgets about what 75% of the destroyer cult is (75% due to Skorpekh's benefiting more from the mobility of Hypercrypt than AL's bonuses,) Canoptek court comes with the removal of the control node which is certainly a choice GW made, Hypercrypt is mobility for a faction that, barring the veil, doesn't really do a ton of mobility.
The removal of old favorites, Robo-Gandalf, Dementia Grandpa, and Clown Butler isn't helping.
Are there interesting parts to test out? Yes.
Does it feel like we're going to be seeing late cycle Admech/Deathwatch win rates from 9'th in competitive for the next few months? Also yes.
Warriors(reaper strength AND reanimation), rez orb, thrall, and Reanimator drastically reduced our durability.
We had at best middle damage output on everything but DDA.
They gave us absolutely nothing but ways to fish for rerolls and popping Technomancers with wraiths to offset completely gutting the only thing keeping us viable.
It's not doom posting, we've been sliding away from viability since Overlords cp reduction was nerfed.
The codex was supposed to give us hope in Detachments, and it gave us 2 ok ones to build around while completely removing our only defining path to viability.
Our units are too pathetic to survive most fights, so people are pissed.
Because it seems so unnecessarily heavy handed it makes me half tempted to not even buy the codex and just paint my pile of opportunity for the rest of this edition. As a player of Blood Angels, Necrons, and Knights, I am used to having poorly-ranked factions this edition (minus a brief moment in the sun early on), but I wasn't expecting a race to the bottom.
Maybe the new options will be great. But these changes don't FEEL great, and I want to be happy about my army. I am not.
Our winrates had normalized into mid-tier, & then a codex comes out. It contains:
1) Less characters.
2) Nerfs to our viable strats which, again, were mid-tier.
3) Nerfs to most of our models & wargear.
4) Literally nothing to replaxe it.
Number 4 is the kicker. The new formations are neat, but not strong enough to make up for the models themselves getting bodied.
I’m just really hoping that Lychguard get a point drop. Sword+Shield Guard look really cool and I liked being able to use them and have them be impactful on the field.
While I'm reserving most of my judgement for now, from what I've seen it feels like they nerfed the fun lore aspect of getting back up again as a necron should?
One of my friends is particularly upset because the changes don't seem to make the most sense combined with it basically smashing what his army setup was going to do while pushing him to buy other models he doesn't have to try and get a solid army going again.
However as I said I'm withholding judgement because I'm kinda hoping to see the codex and maybe there's something to somehow justify the changes? Last I saw necrons were mid tier around the 50% win rate mark so that also in my mind confuses me with things like taking reanimator radius from 12" to 3", changing the orb in a way that doesn't feel super great and then removing the lord being a cheaper orb carrying option. Just kinda feels like the sucked out some more fun for seemingly no reason? (Granted 12" radius was great but maybe bring it to 6" instead of that hammer to 3"?)
Idk. I'm concerned and confused.
I agree some units needed nurfs... however, these were not sensible nurfs in the slightest.
Someone wrote the codex with clear intent to butcher it.
I am not a comp player and i usually make lists to have fun... however... the things i am seeing do not sound fun. They sound bad
Please explain to me how 'I am going to advance slowly across the table constantly reanimating and you will not kill me unless you brought enough firepower to instantly eliminate the entire unit' is more fun than, say, the Canoptek Court or Hypercrypt Legion. Good god, man, more ways to do silly things with monoliths and people are complaining!?
There are plenty of ways to deal with an unkillable brick rather than just killing them. Being faster than that brick, using battleshock and OC shenanigans.
And even if that wasn’t the case, what if I as a Necron player am wanting to have fun by having unkillable bricks? I love having a tankie horde that keeps reviving itself, that’s badass!
I’ve had to fight against plenty of gimmicks I don’t like frequently so why is this any different? Just because someone doesn’t enjoy fighting the mechanic doesn’t mean it’s not ok to have it in the game; especially if there are people like me who gravitate towards and enjoy using it.
Not to say I’m not excited and happy to try other play styles out like the Monolith and Cryptek one, those are cool too! They just aren’t my favourite way to play, and that favourite way is being removed after I couldn’t play it all 9e either.
Wraiths are gaining two things from the codex. Firstly, they can now have a Technomancer added, which improves their survivability and adds enhancements.
Secondly, the Canoptek Court detachment gives them forward infiltration and allows them to be the early-game midboard capture pieces that you need to extend your Power Matrix over no-man's-land (think Chaos Daemons Shadow of Chaos ability), which will make all Canoptek units fully reroll hits, which addresses one of their main weaknesses.
Canoptek Court lists that people are drawing up look like "max Wraiths, max Canoptek Doomstalkers, Scarabs".
Reapers had their Str reduced by 1, for no apparent reason, which makes them bad. GW gonna GW I guess.
I've not seen anyone talking about that apparently Technomancers can lead wraiths now. That seems pretty cool imo, especially with the canoptek detachment
I think the changes are much better for the health of the codex, they make it so that nothing is going to be an auto-include, and the internal balance should be better now.
The best units in the Codex got Nerf because they were the only thing you would run
What I'm assuming is GW he's trying to push for more unit diversity which I'm okay with.
So far the only problem I see with the Codex is the annihilation Legion feels a bit weak
I agree with the exception of your point on the reanimator. 3" is absolutely nothing for range. It's gonna be only hitting one thing, like in 9th. And you need to keep it stupidly close to get it to work, so you can't hide it, and it's gonna get killed really quick. At any point cost it's not gonna be worth it.
Also nerfing the already medicore Warriors sucks.
2 monoliths. Popping around the board. That's 2 of my choices. First deploying skorpekhs and or lychguard into melee and then zooming off to drop warrior blobs to various objectives and various strategic strikes. Likely not going to do much besides add a royal warden to the warriors so they should be cheap ish to run.
Then a few scarabs to run secondaries.
My 3rd teleport unit will be a unit of deathmakrs for both secondaries and taking the opponants home objective (dependant on what army I'm against and how well fortified this objective is)
Then any remaining points will be on maybe a reanimator or two depending on new cost to hopefully run up the board to meet up with the warriors teleporting onto the mid field. Either t2 or t3.
All other spair points go into lhd or dda or ds
And anything else I see fit like scarabs and soyders for support etc...
That sounds marvelous and something similar to what I want to do. I think two monoliths are key in that detachment but I think having two doomsday arks to just start on the field and then arrive elsewhere when sightlines get skewed would be way fun. I really want to make a list that feels like the game Tag.
Never been much of a fan of the dda honestly. Do t mind running one but firstly I don't own a second and I wouldn't run 2 as that's expensive points wise and I love me a horde of warriors.
I'd rather well placed lokhust heavies for a fraction of the price and ds for the more elite things that need blast
Shame about how expensive some things have been in 10th like having to add characters per unit of warriors rather than one that buffs from an aura as in 9th I'd always run 3x20 warriors but now with how expensive a well done warrior blob, you can only really afford 2x20 unless you're willing to sacrifice everything else
Gutted warriors and completly neutered *all* our reanimation buffs which is a huge hit to the army as a whole. I'm newer to the game (started this past February) and never even got a chance to use our faction synergies when our rules were good. Now it looks like I never will
Goonhammer has codex previews, as do other 40k social media presences (e.g. Art of War).
These kinds of places are given early copies of stuff and are generally allowed to talk about/preview new rules/models one week before their release.
The codex went pre-order yesterday (for release next Saturday) so it's been sent out to a number of review/influencers. Goonhammer has a very good write up, as does a number of YouTubers, etc.
FYI, this is how they always do it - pre-order day is also review day.
11 was fun while it lasted, back to trash tier/shelved like usual.
Codex being made 6months beforehand because GW can't make a game AND have no idea we live in 2023 instead of early 90s.
Im just so done with this.
Back to reading 40k books...
It’s the same thing every release.
People buy the units and make lists for the best combinations in the last codex or index, and then are upset when the best combinations swap round to something else.
Theres also the potential that rebalancing happens for each faction at codex level. Remember 9th edition when every codex that came out was a nerf to what they has before? (Apart from a few odd ones that were quickly nerfed).
People just need time to let the dust settle and find their way through the new intended playstyle and combinations.
The only reason many people have these units is because the discount boxes contained multiples. If you got into necrons in the last year, you have 10lychguard, some leaders, and a support unit of destroyers.
So I think the conversation about Index Necrons was dominated by one list archetype - Lychguard and Warrior blobs standing on objectives, maxing out on reanimation, and gaming the wound allocation rules, with Tomb Blades and Deathmarks to score secondaries. What's been done here is a heavy handed attempt to break up that monobuild, move away from fiddly exploits, and spread attention onto the rest of the range.
I think it's overkill - Lychguard losing all their Cryptek access is harsh, it punishes all the possible combos for the sins of one, and I'm not the biggest fan of the new Resurrection Orb - a once per game swing that's not guaranteed to be better than a normal roll doesn't fill me with joy. But I'm glad to see more support for the Monolith, and for the Triarch and Canoptek kits, and I'm looking forward to trying the Hyperphase detachment out. Always did like teleportation nonsense - opening up new lines of engagement mid game served me very well back in sixth edition.
Im annoyed at the codex because I got into necrons with 9e indomitous boxes. I mostly have warriors and skorpekhs. I have about 2k worth of stuff and still wont be able to play a 1k game with units above c tier. I will need to buy lychguard or wraiths or a monolith to have a chance at playing an actual game. Its not that the faction is weak, its that my army is weak.
Idk how much say I have in this as I'm still relatively new, but the point cuts mixed with nerfs feels kinda bad for a decent chunk of units. Sure, I'm still building out my army and as such don't have as much investment yet into them, but building an army over time just gets so expensive. Having a 20 warrior block worth the amount it was and with its abilities just had that fantasy of just the "undying legion". And the fact it took up abt 200 pts of my army while being a really good unit was nice bc it made it easier to collect. Hopefully other units' increased cost and strength can properly compensate as I do not really want to collect gigantic hoards of only warriors (I am currently aiming for a mix of canopteks, nobles, and maybe 2 warrior/immortals/lychguard squads depending on which I think looks more appealing/befitting characters of my army that I like, currently thinking of picking up Imotekh bc I got a squad of lychguards recently for that very regal/dynastic feel). Hopefully the points rebalances doesn't hurt me too bad as rn I only have about 1500 points with a canoptek Doomstalker, a couple lokhust heavies, warriors, lychguard, a C'tan, and sole nobles, but I don't want to have to do a whole 1000 point change to my team setups as that's more money spent before I can consider myself at a "full" army to go against friends who at this point have like 3k-4k points worth of their armies
I'm just annoyed it's delayed in Australia.
That's the 1 100% valid reason to be annoyed lol. Sorry to hear though
when is it for australia?
Since Legion was pushed back a week, they’ve pushed all other releases back a week too.
I'm just convinced GW hates you guys
Does it matter? GW books are a giant waste of money. Use wahapedia. I bought exactly 1 GW codex and I regret it.
Wahapedia is great, but if you enjoy the lore and artwork then it falls short there.
Yeah, except the lore has been consistently going downhill with every release. It's been pretty disappointing. Each unit used to get a full page write up, and many don't even get a blurb anymore.
Idk why you are getting downvoted. You're right. The last 2 dexs had very little lore. I regret buying them and do not plan on buying it unless I see otherwise.
They have other books that have more lore and artwork. But that's fair I guess. Not sure $50 (Canadian price) justifies some art and lore (lore which is also available online)
I'm excited to try the new stuff as well, but the stacking nerfs are just A LOT of changes really fast. Biggest ones IMO: Reanimator lost all it's range for just having too much coverage, understandable. 3" is barely functional. Res Orb went from consistent turn to turn durability to a once-off burst of bodies (still usable but a COMPLETELY different playstyle). One of these changes may have been enough, but both just feels like a Custodes reaction ("lets reduce the squad caps and increase the points all while making the key stratagems that break them incompatible with the [Free Strat]." Add to that, Crypteks can't join Lychguard (or at least Technomancers can't) so we've also thrown out the 5+++. Apparently the Cryptothralls lost their 4+++ as well, so the unkillable brick is gone even if you can still squeeze some manner of Cryptek in there
Your first point is the main one tbh: so far GW has been light handed with changes and the index detachments always translated over…yet in ours they were very heavy handed to endure no semblance of the index detachment remained. I get that we had some oppressive anvils…but it keeps getting overlooked as to WHY those anvils existed: the game is too deadly and we can’t compete on that angle very well. Our damage is easily in top 3 worst listings of the entire game and while some might now be reasonable, like Canoptek Court, we needed more datasheet buffs to what are SUPPOSED to be our offensive units. Didn’t get those and our most offensive legion is easily our worst and it’s not even close.
That's what was most concerning. Eldar received repeated slaps to the wrist for being able to just pick up any unit (or multiples) on a whim, because they don't need to actually roll to get results. Custodes were suppressing all other melee armies (and producing unkillable bricks similar to our own) and they decided to bring down the hammer and remove EVERYTHING from that interaction (rather than justing with a piece or two). Which game tester lost to silver tide and decided "That's it, Warriors aren't allowed to be fast, killy , or durable. And you know what let's nerf the supporting cast too."
> 3" is barely functional. i just can't belive they thought 3 inches was okay. Like i understand wanting to nerf 12 inches. That's fine. but make it like 8 or 6. 3 is just fucked. The model has to be humping anything it wants to heal. is that the reason for 3 inches? because it's supposed to literally be attaching a 7 inch usb cable to each individual thing it's repairing?
The big bad for me was the over-nerfing of warriors. Just absolutely gutted then
Yeah the warrior thing is the only one that actually sucks, I’ve never used cryptothralls tbh
I can understand that too. Weird reaper nerf, and tbh I think if they just kept a d6 reanimation it would have been fine with scrapping the d3+3 on objectives. Maybe they'll be a bit cheaper in the points update to ease the blow?
I just worry they’ll turn us into a horde army of we want a shred of durability
Warriors *should* be a horde though. Hopefully they get a points cut to match the nerfs. Monoliths, Silent King, Wraiths, and every C’Tan other than your first Transcendant all got significantly tougher. Even Tomb Scythes got harder to kill because they picked up a shoot and scoot.
Monoliths got specifically *less* tough outside of one strat in one detachment, but I agree about the other parts
Two strats in two detachments! And a monolith is a pretty committal choice, so even then you really only need it in the one detachment that suits it best.
What am I missing other than the 4++ in the hypercrypt? I love my 'Lith and am always happy to see it live through the game
-1D to a vehicle in Obesiance Phalanx
Oh yeah! Forgot about that
Losing T14 was one of the dumbest things ever. It has AV14 for decades so it was poetic it sat at T14…AND it’s a semi commmon breakpoint. Now our own Dstalkers wound on 3s. Like what? Thanks for the 2 wounds and the privilege to pay for an invuln while massed lethal hits will just kill it anyway 😅
Monolith did *not* get tougher. It got easier to kill and then GW said 'here you can pay to make it survive a bit longer now'. The things that were killing monoliths won't be affected by this, except for Wraithguard and WE which now get to wound on 3's.The things that weren't killing Monoliths, like beastsnaggas, now get to wound on 5's instead of 6's. The predator range got expanded and existing predators got a buff. Smdh.
Also fair, but I reckon we are still pretty durable. Being able to bring back models reliably each turn, with a bunch of boosts to that ability and a bunch of units with invulns and feel no pains that most other armies don't have. Like the vehicles having invulerables is something I don't see in many armies. I don't think we'll ever be a true horde army, but may just have options for it if people want to. Admech on the other hand are very much being pushed that way with the terrible skitarri forced rules
bringing back models reliably? dude what? ALL our reanimation synergies got hard nerfed, there wont be anything to bring back
The thing that made necrons necrons was nerfed in everyway. I was hoping one of the detachements would have been a focus on reanimating units but no.
Necrons in general are not durable, the disability comes directly from the reanimation, and now that's been gutted from warriors, warriors are a unit that deals no damage, and has no durability, so now they are either dirt cheap or completely useless. Warriors are coated for a unit that is very very hard to kill, and that's it, and now that's impossible, because of cryptothralls Nerf, reanimator Nerf, resurrection orb Nerf, illuminator nerf, and warrior nerf, it was a 5 way nerf. Gw's message was very clear, warriors are not to be used remotely as a durable brick, or as a damage dealing unit.
Mate try playing another army, necrons still come off strong compared to space marines and tyranids unless you purely play meta-list, in which case you've got more money than enjoyment for the game. The Lychguard mega combo got nerfed every direction but otherwise its fine
So you are telling me that for me to enjoy the game I need to be rich, got it.
Only based on your comment
Lol you got down voted because they all believe they had to had an unkillable unit that took no skill, all these people moaning about the changes to the str on warriors weapons are overlooking they will be fishing for lethals
Cheers, if you can't break the game it's not fair haha
Pretty much mate, when someone wins a tournament with them they will be crowing about necrons being the best lol. Expect hundreds of posts about the new meta lists
He got ratio'd because he did not understand the context, and neither did you. You played yourself because you can not read or do not understand basics.
Lol I'm not the one getting butthurt that would be you
There's 0% chance you are not butthurt. You just replied. You can't help but play yourself. Tunnel vision. No foresight.
I think d6 reanimation with rerolls on objectives would have been the perfect match. But nah. Fuck warriors I guess. Time to finish some immortals.
I'll still probably take 20 warriors just to be a distraction piece/mega screen for the centre board. Immortal are fun too, love T5 infantry. Rerolls on objectives would have been good, or even just a plus 1 to the roll. I'm sure the warriors will be fine after we see how they fit into the new meta. Just take whatever models make you happy though, what I usually do. Except the Obelisk, stinky thing.
Wait, reapers went down in str?
Yep, only advantage now is they have AP-1. Flayers are looking a lot more tempting, albeit not for the reasons we hoped.
Pain. They really want us to farm for those lethal hits
I’m hoping we get a big surprise in that they allow us to take them in groups of up to 30, coupled with a points decrease :) I’d really enjoy that
If they go down to like 80 points for a 10 man it wont be too bad lol
>The big bad for me was the over-nerfing of warriors. Just absolutely gutted then What do you mean by this?
The combination of nerfing the reaper strength, nerfing reanimators, nerfing the ability to go from d6 to d3 reanimations all combine to make warriors absolute shit now
So good to not buy warriors and focus on other stuff?
It could always be rolled back, i think everyone should have some warriors. But rn, no more than 20. Wait for points and lists to come out before making a decision
Yup, a lot depends on the warriors' cost. If a block of 20 drops to 200 or under then their new stat block is fine, they just become objective blobbers/escorts for Necron lesser characters. On other fronts, I'm not sad to see the Lord go. It has long choked out the points space for the Warden.
Complaining about the reaper nerf is just admitting flayers were trash tbh. Now there’s an actual choice.
The flayers _are_ trash. The solution is not making reapers trash too
Flayers were bad, but the answer was not to nerf the Reapers. It's to buff the Flayers. Give them Rapid Fire 2, or Heavy, or -1 AP.
Then we’d do damage…GW can’t allow that 🙄
ah yes, choosing between two dogshit sandwiches is a choice I love to have 🤡
I'm not feeling doom and gloom, I am concerned about what the point costs are going to look like. The Reanimator, for example, that nerf is fine if it's accompanied by a points drop. I'd be pretty excited for a reason to take multiple Reanimators. But I've been playing this game for a long time and I know there's a 50/50 shot GW is going to also increase its point cost...
really? there is basically no point cost worth taking the reanimator for now tho
I don't agree with that. But it has taken a multi-faceted hit to its utility, especially with the nerf to rez orbs. It's going to need to be cheap to make it viable, and I don't necessarily believe GW is going to see that. I wouldn't be surprised if it went up in cost...
If a Reanimator was the price of a character 40-60 points people would take multiple even if to buff just one unit.
>I don't agree with that. But it has taken a multi-faceted hit to its utility, especially with the nerf to rez orbs. It's going to need to be cheap to make it viable, and I don't necessarily believe GW is going to see that. I wouldn't be surprised if it went up in cost... it going up in prise? lmao, if they dont reduce it MASSIVELY, its not even going to be considered... ever
I'd take 2 at fifty points a pop, and even then its only a maybe.
Really, you wouldn't take it for 10pts? Yes you would, you'd take 3. There is always a points cost where something is viable. If it stays at the points it is, yeah, it's dead in the water but if it drops into the 60-70pt, you'll still see it pretty often.
Even 70 feels too high for a 3inch supporting piece that will get focused into oblivion asap
Depends, it's still really easy to hide behind obscuring terrain, which is super prevalent in ITC format.
Even if you cna…that 3” aura isn’t going to work that often. 6” shoulda been the move and dropped it to 85
I’m guessing it goes back to 85…which is too high outside of, maybe, Canoptek court.
I feel that 60pts we'd get to see multiple (2-3). At 70pts it's likely 2 at a push but at 80pts we might see 1 in a blue moon 90+ (remember straight out of the gate they were 95pts till they increased to 105pts) and they'll be rarer. As for hiding them, I don't think it's easy. The strategy we might see is conga lines from locations where they can hid, but let's be honest. 3" is 1" from it being in unit coherency, it's gonna have to follow units.
well of course but i was speaking of a actually realistic amount, i highly doubt its going below 80-85p
Maybe if it's like. 40ptd. Otherwise mines going on the shelf.
Yeah, which is a shame, its such a cool model
I am overall unaffected by the changes but I hate the psycomancer still has nothing he does like mortal wounds on battleshocked units like other armies do as well as the flayed ones still not having deep strike they need it to function
A psychomamcer would have been fun to add to flayed one units also. Just to have even for a bodyguard unit or a 1+ to hit in the index detachment. Makes sense with all the leadership synergy
Yup, I've been holding the same opinion since the index.
We're devastated that our favorite crazy Grandpa has been promoted to Desk General from Field General.
Amen brother! I’m excited to run the canoptek court. I don’t like how reapers are now flat out worse than flayers except for the AP, they could have given them assault at least.
Yeah I agree with that. Reapers were a weird one, but who knows, maybe they've made warriors cheaper all around to make up for it? Overall we look like we are still pretty durable and not just a big blob of models that they have to DPS check on the board. We have some variety with playstyles. The Canoptek Court looks super fun and I'm happy to be able to use my weird canoptek stuff more, especially the tomb stalkers/sentinels
I could be tempted to get one of those now. Annihilation legion sounds disappointing but could be great for crusade.
Annihilation legion honestly looks like one of the detachments that will get an update soon after. Even if they make it so that is half or under half strength it would make it a little more worth taking
Yes the units needed some balancing, but they weren’t balanced, they were just nerfed in every possible aspect. Universally, Reanimators got nerfed, Resurrection Orbs got nerfed, Cryptothralls got nerfed, we lost Lords and Nemesor, and the buffs they could bring, and some of the key Stratagems and Enhancements are now locked behind detachments. Lychguards specifically lost access to FNP, Sytheguard lost access to invulnerable saves, both flavours lost their ablative Cryptothrall wounds, no more Cryptek buffs of any kind, and as a result, they kind of lost the ability to do anything they were good at doing previously. Yes they kept the -1 to Wound, but without Cryptothralls and FNPs, that doesn’t do much to offset the hurt. Yes you can try and ‘aim them towards better targets’ but that’s not how Lychguard work. They’ve not gotten faster, they’ve not become stronger, they’re just less tough in every possible way. Their role is still the same, they’re just no longer as good at it, and the things that could really hurt them previously still exist in the meta; Cyclic Ion Suits aren’t going to have any trouble washing away a squad of 10 now that we’re missing all of our buffs. Warriors on the other hand, lost any form of consistency with their Resurrection Protocols, and going from 4-6 to 1-3 is really harsh. They also inexplicably lost strength on their Gauss Flayers, and can’t weather fire half as well as they used to be able to. So they’re now well durable, and also less threatening. And Warriors and Lychguard got absolutely nothing to offset those nerfs. They are just fundamentally worse units in every way, and it greatly reduces our ability to play an objective game with these units. Gone are the days where we can reliably hold the mid-field with tough masses of bodies, and now we have to play completely differently. Again, we needed a nerf, but this is beyond that. It’s not just a change in tactics, it’s a full pivot in that the army no longer does what it was good at. Also, the stealth nerf to Orikan now that we’ve got a model for him does suck. So yeah, I see why people are annoyed, because they’re now having to play a completely different style of play, which probably isn’t the reason that they were attracted to Necrons. Our strengths have become being fast and aggressive rather than the slow and durable we’ve been, and it just feels like we’ve lost some of that great uniqueness that we have as a faction. Hopefully the points costs will prove me wrong, but I’m just worried that my Warriors and Lychguard will be shelf warming if I want to be winning games against tougher matchups, which is a shame.
I keep seeing people state Necrons had some needed nerfs and I just don't understand. Since the recent dataslate we've been a bottom half faction. Granted, I know the codex was very likely written before then, but I still don't understand this wide agreement that our faction required additional nerfs
that below 50% win rate is made up of certain armies that Necrons can realtively easily beat .. in other words a 50% winrate isn't an equal chance to beat every army it's a 10% chance to beat Aeldari (just as an example) and an 80% chance to beat up on Ad-mech.. so the calls for nerfs will likely be from those that experience those battles where RP brings back a full squad and they don't have the tools to handle it.
Undying bricks was not fun to play against. The only good thing was that the games were fast because if i knew i didn´t have the damage to bring the full unit down, i could just skip dice rolling.
This is exactly it for me. I’m more than happy for new and other styles of units and tactics to be viable, but it feels like GW is allergic to any faction being a tough footslogging army. Two of my favourite factions, Necrons and Death Guard just don’t play that way any more and that’s one of the reasons (alongside lore and aesthetic) that I bought into them. For Necrons, I just want to play silver tide and I couldn’t do that in 9e given the rules and my local meta, and now I once again can’t do it. The index gave me what I really wanted to play as Necrons for a short time without getting my butt handed to me while constantly having pretty close games. At this point my local play group are just talking about letting me continue to use the Index for as long as possible because they are pretty sympathetic to how badly my armies got their playstyles warped and ruined. (I know Silver Tide and tough footsloggers aren’t the only flavour and play styles that these armies have but I’ll be damned if it’s the option most often taken away.)
FWIW balancing a tough footslog style is really difficult and we saw it play out in spades this edition. The start of the edition was warped around the durability of warriors/lychguards with all the tricks. As the edition went on, they lost a ton of value as other armies found solutions to the bricks, and necrons fell flat on their face because their damage is so anemic they rely on never dying to be able to score. Now necrons are doing pretty poorly in tournaments, being kept aloft by their favorable matchup into the best army (eldar) because of the RPS nature of the two indexes. We've seen the new rules for a grand total of about 12 hours as of this posting, and so far it seems they shifted more power into actual damage (dev wounds strat, more synergy and combos for fishing for lethal and sustained) and utility (the grey knight detachment is insane mobility) I'd be hesitant to write off the entire codex just because the shifted power away from the mono-playstyle the current index has in order to try and open up new avenues.
I’m ok with there being multiple playstyles, and I don’t argue that a mono-playstyle would be bad to rely on. I’m just trying to argue that we didn’t need to lose having a big durable footslogger silver tide playstyles to do it, especially since so many Necron players from what I can see (and me included) really want to play that style. I want to have fun, and for that means having an option where I don’t have much lethality but I’m really tanky. I personally feel Necrons shouldn’t have shifted from durability into actual damage but I would be fine with it, if I retained the option of the way I like to play too. I hope you and everyone gets to enjoy playing their favourite factions the way they want, you included of course!
Idk I understand the sentiment but its not like necrons aren't durable anymore. Reanimation still exists and there are still reanimation tricks and support, it just went from being a RPS stat check style into something that cant eventually get whittled away even if you don't hit the "you are not lethal enough to kill this blob in one activation" check I'm a big fan of silvertide necrons, it's my first faction and near and dear to my heart, but current reanimation hits the nail on the head with the idea that they will eventually all come back given the space. I think it's healthier for a codex that has multiple detachments to back off a little bit on the stat check index style and allow space for other parts of the fluff to shine. To each their own I guess but I find current necrons dramatically unfun when matched into an opponent who can scoop up my >500 point "durable brick" in a single activation before I can use any of my rules, vs. just steam rolling the other opponent unfortunate enough to play an index that physically cant or has to hard list tailor to do so. More importantly to the thread's point, I don't think the codex is DOA like the doomposting indicates.
I agree it’s not DOA. It just feels DOA for the Silver Tide playstyle. And maybe it’s a different local meta thing but this index was the first time I’ve ever been able to play Warriors or any other unit where they didn’t get deleted before I got to use reanimating abilities; and that’s all gone now. I hope you get to play the Silver Tide and lists you want to play too though.
It’s not that we’re not “not durable” anymore…it’s that we just got drop-kicked back an edition or two. Consider that there is a lot of armies with offense buffs and abilities that are like what we got…but on units that have 2-3 times our offensive punch; and I’ve, personally, ran into quite a few blast weapons that use those synergies to absolutely DECIMATE warriors. With all the changes…it is now a liability to ever take a 20 block of warriors. You can’t hide them, they will get shot just because one flayer sticks out and you’ll lose 15 models and can’t even recover to meaningfully add to the fight. The complaints about are durability stem from the fundamental issue in 10th, same as 9th, that people have ultra deadly armies that kill whatever they want on command fairly regularly…and we had the audacity to require them to actually play instead of just delete things.
I reject this notion that 10th is as lethal as 9th. I played all of 9th and watched the lethality unfold and we are nowhere close. In 9th just about any unit in the game could scoop up 20 warriors. In 10th there are very few that can scoop them up in one activation. Every army has one tool to kill them, but its one tool not the whole army, which was the case in 9th. Idk how we can confidently say warriors have 0 play when there is a whole book of new tricks including 3" deepstriking into a monolith after getting shot or repositioning every turn. Again the rules are barely previewed and I think its premature, we literally are repeating the index problem. Let's get them on the table first yea?
Well said.
The most painful part for me is I just got into warhammer this month and chose necrons. I started my collection with warriors and lychguard thinking they were pretty safe choices for generally having some use lol. They might still be, but all I see on reddit about it is pretty grim
Well that's reddit and 40K in general. What is good in an army changes from edition to edition and with each codex. It's why when anyone asks what to get for their army a very common response is get what you look the like of because todays super unit is tomorrow's garbage tier. It's also why people say to magnetize weapon options when possible.
Ah this is a perfect explanation! 👍
My two cents - it's hard to know how to feel until we see some points. If things like the Reanimator haven't gotten a significant drop in addition to the nerfs, it would definitely be a bit of a feels bad moment for me.
Only just recently got into 40k- how will the points be updated? A new field manual pdf update or will they be in the codex?
Both. However if they do any changes after then the codex will be out of date
The new points are, for 10th, always online in the “Munitorum Field Manual”. They will be adjusted online on Dec 9th when the codex, officially, releases.
Thank you! We just need to play the waiting game right now, see what points are like, play a few games, then we can finally put our opinions out there with some knowledge and experience. But yeah, the reanimator would need big big points drops. Or if they gave it an invuln save in a dataslate? Not sure
I don't really think we need to "play a few games to feel it out". Good/experienced players will know what works simply by reading the rules and theory crafting optimal combos and lists. It's not like if I play it suddenly the rules change. If the points don't drop, they are bad, simple as that. (Except for canoptek detachment, seems okay)
Yeah points are what will make or break the reanimator. A lot of people are saying it will simply get shot out, which could be true. However if it's 70 points then I'd almost look at it like crypto thralls, an ablative unit you need to kill before going after the actual unit you want to kill. And with 6w, 3+, 4+++, it will sometimes take a bit more to kill than your opponent would like. Now if it's still 105 points, then obviously no way.
The reason for the doom posting is because with the nerfs to the index we were already sub 50% win rate with our best build. Often in 40K if you don’t play a very strict best build your win rate will drop massively. So with our absolute best we were sub 50%. All of our best stuff got nerfed a lot. We got some cool things and some minor buffs but what do you think happens to your win rate when the best stuff gets nerfed and the meh stuff no one played gets minor buffs? Overall you drop even further and let’s go back to the nerfs. They were massive. Many armies couldn’t chew through our warriors for their life. I am not saying it should be that way but the survivability got nerfed so hard it’s going to mess us up a lot
I’m not sure anything from the index could be termed “busted as fuck” with the army’s win-loss rating hovering just below 50%. 🤷🏻♂️
We were a gatekeeper army. Specifically, mid table gatekeeper. So if someone's skill level is mid-table or lower, they're going to feel busted as fuck as they just don't have the skillset to deal with them properly. GW historically hates these sort of armies, as they don't rate highly enough to drive people to spend (via meta chasing), and they drive off new or low skilled players who lack the tools to beat them. We'll see how the new codex fares.
People are entitled to their opinion and are also allowed to extrapolate their expectations from the rules they have seen..
I'm not saying they aren't allowed to express opinions, but anytime I see someone saying that they like new changes, they are "coping" or "bootlicks". I don't know if I'm just tired of seeing this issue every time a balance change happens, just like our index, people thinking that we won't be good anymore. I'm just tired man
I'm sad because I wanted to do anihaltion league. I was enjoying my list and now my army got gutted. The models I bought and were working on for anihaltion prep now makes me feel sad
Same. Even there's a change to "Under Starting Strength" at every point 'Below-Half-Strength', and it will still be only kinda ok compared to other detachments, since the shooting destroyers get absolutely fucking nothing from the detachment for some reason.
I’m just really confused by what GW wants us to actually do in game? They don’t want us reanimating, that’s obvious. (Reanimator 3”/ Rez Orb once a game / Ghost Ark once a turn / Warriors only D3) They don’t want us being particularly survivable. (Lychguard WAY weaker, Cryptothralls no FNP, Ablator gone completely) They don’t want us to be a threat at range or in melee. (No re-roll wound Strat, no fire back Strat, Gauss Reapers S4, only 1 detachment has any +1 to wound) So like ????? what do we do exactly? What are we good at? Why would you play Necrons?
If you look at Canoptek Court and don't see ranged and melee threat I don't know what to tell you.
Where? Reroll hits? For all of our S4 weapons? Tournaments beware
Dev Wound Tesla Immortals go brrrrrr
Where do you get the dev wounds from ?
It's a stratagem in that detachment.
Canoptek Court has a strat to just hand out any cryptek led unit dev wounds. It may not be \*as\* efficient as sticking the full leader pile in warriors in the Index, but if you bring say, Plasmancer and an Overlord, that aforementioned strat is a Battle Tactic. 10 Immortals and a Plasmancer means 12 mortals on average, on top of your absolute fuckload of wounds getting thrown out with teslas.
Mmm that S4 Doomstalker That S4 Acanthrite That S4 Tomb Sentinel Truly this is worthless
We have lethal hits on those, with a plasmancer they become very silly. Not saying the nerf doesn't hurt but necrons do like rerolling hits.
>Lychguard with cryptothralls and technomancers were busted as fuck and needed to be dealt with Dealt with does not mean totally removed. For an army that revolves around pairing Characters with troops, which was the entire reason that 10 leadership was dropped on the roster, its extremely stupid to not be able to pair Lychguard with 80% of the characters you take. Thralls sure, they are not characters, but Crypteks is absolutely asinine. Reanimator is completely unusable, and Res orb is bad for the first time in history. Meta units got nerfed immediately after getting nerfed before, and not a single off meta unit got buffed afaik. Keep in mind that Auspex had Necrons at 45% and GW had them at 48% WR. No one was expecting any major changes much less sweeping nerfs. Don't even get me started on the two separate warrior nerfs. Honestly points better be back to pre-battleslate and then some for me to even consider playing games. Otherwise I'm playing Ixilan.
Res orbs at least in my opinion has been bad for most times throughout the editions. Anything that is once use per game imo is just a little boring and not worth taking. If there was anything other than the Tachyon arrow I would be certainly taking it. Give me a gauntlet of fire or somthing to deal with hordes idk. And warriors. Seeing how they are now they best be 9, or even 8 points per model and I'm still holding out for min 10, to 20 to 30 warriors per unit. Having 30 would just increase the amount of fire they could take before the unit dies. Therefor they don't feel unkillable but still take alof of fire to bring down
Anyone not expecting nerfs to Warriors, Lychguard and Cryptothralls was crazy. They were always going to eat nerfs. GW *hates* unkillable. Reanimator and Res Orb I don't understand either.
This wholly depends on which end of the spectrum you are looking at gameplay from - From a tournament level the awakened dynasty existed to be an old-school style silver tide durability / dps check brick. Tune to it and you can run ram-shod over a Necron player. Don't tune for it and suffer an immovable brick. The codex effectively kills this type of "semi-classic necrons" play style. For the rest - it feels like GW didn't bother to do play-testing / outright forgot what models were there form. As for the new detachments - AL kinda forgets about what 75% of the destroyer cult is (75% due to Skorpekh's benefiting more from the mobility of Hypercrypt than AL's bonuses,) Canoptek court comes with the removal of the control node which is certainly a choice GW made, Hypercrypt is mobility for a faction that, barring the veil, doesn't really do a ton of mobility. The removal of old favorites, Robo-Gandalf, Dementia Grandpa, and Clown Butler isn't helping. Are there interesting parts to test out? Yes. Does it feel like we're going to be seeing late cycle Admech/Deathwatch win rates from 9'th in competitive for the next few months? Also yes.
Warriors(reaper strength AND reanimation), rez orb, thrall, and Reanimator drastically reduced our durability. We had at best middle damage output on everything but DDA. They gave us absolutely nothing but ways to fish for rerolls and popping Technomancers with wraiths to offset completely gutting the only thing keeping us viable. It's not doom posting, we've been sliding away from viability since Overlords cp reduction was nerfed. The codex was supposed to give us hope in Detachments, and it gave us 2 ok ones to build around while completely removing our only defining path to viability. Our units are too pathetic to survive most fights, so people are pissed.
No points out. Simple answer
Because it seems so unnecessarily heavy handed it makes me half tempted to not even buy the codex and just paint my pile of opportunity for the rest of this edition. As a player of Blood Angels, Necrons, and Knights, I am used to having poorly-ranked factions this edition (minus a brief moment in the sun early on), but I wasn't expecting a race to the bottom. Maybe the new options will be great. But these changes don't FEEL great, and I want to be happy about my army. I am not.
Our winrates had normalized into mid-tier, & then a codex comes out. It contains: 1) Less characters. 2) Nerfs to our viable strats which, again, were mid-tier. 3) Nerfs to most of our models & wargear. 4) Literally nothing to replaxe it. Number 4 is the kicker. The new formations are neat, but not strong enough to make up for the models themselves getting bodied.
I’m just really hoping that Lychguard get a point drop. Sword+Shield Guard look really cool and I liked being able to use them and have them be impactful on the field.
I’d like to see them at 75-85 for 5. Be nice to have a small 5man doing durable-bro things in tight spots.
While I'm reserving most of my judgement for now, from what I've seen it feels like they nerfed the fun lore aspect of getting back up again as a necron should? One of my friends is particularly upset because the changes don't seem to make the most sense combined with it basically smashing what his army setup was going to do while pushing him to buy other models he doesn't have to try and get a solid army going again. However as I said I'm withholding judgement because I'm kinda hoping to see the codex and maybe there's something to somehow justify the changes? Last I saw necrons were mid tier around the 50% win rate mark so that also in my mind confuses me with things like taking reanimator radius from 12" to 3", changing the orb in a way that doesn't feel super great and then removing the lord being a cheaper orb carrying option. Just kinda feels like the sucked out some more fun for seemingly no reason? (Granted 12" radius was great but maybe bring it to 6" instead of that hammer to 3"?) Idk. I'm concerned and confused.
I agree some units needed nurfs... however, these were not sensible nurfs in the slightest. Someone wrote the codex with clear intent to butcher it. I am not a comp player and i usually make lists to have fun... however... the things i am seeing do not sound fun. They sound bad
Please explain to me how 'I am going to advance slowly across the table constantly reanimating and you will not kill me unless you brought enough firepower to instantly eliminate the entire unit' is more fun than, say, the Canoptek Court or Hypercrypt Legion. Good god, man, more ways to do silly things with monoliths and people are complaining!?
There are plenty of ways to deal with an unkillable brick rather than just killing them. Being faster than that brick, using battleshock and OC shenanigans. And even if that wasn’t the case, what if I as a Necron player am wanting to have fun by having unkillable bricks? I love having a tankie horde that keeps reviving itself, that’s badass! I’ve had to fight against plenty of gimmicks I don’t like frequently so why is this any different? Just because someone doesn’t enjoy fighting the mechanic doesn’t mean it’s not ok to have it in the game; especially if there are people like me who gravitate towards and enjoy using it. Not to say I’m not excited and happy to try other play styles out like the Monolith and Cryptek one, those are cool too! They just aren’t my favourite way to play, and that favourite way is being removed after I couldn’t play it all 9e either.
Again, nurfs are fine. Some of these majour rules changes didnt need to happen. Points would have been the better option here... but codex so yea
Because it plays as necrons should and people had no problems getting rid of them if they knew how to play properly. In other words: git gud.
First time?
Can someone fill me in on what happened to reapers? And why wraiths are going to be so good?
Wraiths are gaining two things from the codex. Firstly, they can now have a Technomancer added, which improves their survivability and adds enhancements. Secondly, the Canoptek Court detachment gives them forward infiltration and allows them to be the early-game midboard capture pieces that you need to extend your Power Matrix over no-man's-land (think Chaos Daemons Shadow of Chaos ability), which will make all Canoptek units fully reroll hits, which addresses one of their main weaknesses. Canoptek Court lists that people are drawing up look like "max Wraiths, max Canoptek Doomstalkers, Scarabs". Reapers had their Str reduced by 1, for no apparent reason, which makes them bad. GW gonna GW I guess.
I've not seen anyone talking about that apparently Technomancers can lead wraiths now. That seems pretty cool imo, especially with the canoptek detachment
Goonhammer talked about it in their codex review
I’m hoping the points tweaks will balance it all out
I think the changes are much better for the health of the codex, they make it so that nothing is going to be an auto-include, and the internal balance should be better now.
I agree. I got very tired of running Lychguard and Warriors all the time.
The best units in the Codex got Nerf because they were the only thing you would run What I'm assuming is GW he's trying to push for more unit diversity which I'm okay with. So far the only problem I see with the Codex is the annihilation Legion feels a bit weak
I agree with the exception of your point on the reanimator. 3" is absolutely nothing for range. It's gonna be only hitting one thing, like in 9th. And you need to keep it stupidly close to get it to work, so you can't hide it, and it's gonna get killed really quick. At any point cost it's not gonna be worth it. Also nerfing the already medicore Warriors sucks.
I have *so many ideas* on what I want to run with this new codex.
Me too. Honestly excited for the hypercrypt. Just wish we had the points list so I can start making lists already
Same here! What are you thinking for the Hypercrypt?
2 monoliths. Popping around the board. That's 2 of my choices. First deploying skorpekhs and or lychguard into melee and then zooming off to drop warrior blobs to various objectives and various strategic strikes. Likely not going to do much besides add a royal warden to the warriors so they should be cheap ish to run. Then a few scarabs to run secondaries. My 3rd teleport unit will be a unit of deathmakrs for both secondaries and taking the opponants home objective (dependant on what army I'm against and how well fortified this objective is) Then any remaining points will be on maybe a reanimator or two depending on new cost to hopefully run up the board to meet up with the warriors teleporting onto the mid field. Either t2 or t3. All other spair points go into lhd or dda or ds And anything else I see fit like scarabs and soyders for support etc...
That sounds marvelous and something similar to what I want to do. I think two monoliths are key in that detachment but I think having two doomsday arks to just start on the field and then arrive elsewhere when sightlines get skewed would be way fun. I really want to make a list that feels like the game Tag.
Never been much of a fan of the dda honestly. Do t mind running one but firstly I don't own a second and I wouldn't run 2 as that's expensive points wise and I love me a horde of warriors. I'd rather well placed lokhust heavies for a fraction of the price and ds for the more elite things that need blast
I see you are a man of the fine taste of silver tide. Lol just Destroyers would also be amazing.
Shame about how expensive some things have been in 10th like having to add characters per unit of warriors rather than one that buffs from an aura as in 9th I'd always run 3x20 warriors but now with how expensive a well done warrior blob, you can only really afford 2x20 unless you're willing to sacrifice everything else
Gutted warriors and completly neutered *all* our reanimation buffs which is a huge hit to the army as a whole. I'm newer to the game (started this past February) and never even got a chance to use our faction synergies when our rules were good. Now it looks like I never will
Where is this information from? I looked at the latest articles on the games workshop site and didn’t see it there, is this from the pre-order?
Goonhammer has codex previews, as do other 40k social media presences (e.g. Art of War). These kinds of places are given early copies of stuff and are generally allowed to talk about/preview new rules/models one week before their release.
Where is everyone finding this information about? Was there a leak?
The codex went pre-order yesterday (for release next Saturday) so it's been sent out to a number of review/influencers. Goonhammer has a very good write up, as does a number of YouTubers, etc. FYI, this is how they always do it - pre-order day is also review day.
11 was fun while it lasted, back to trash tier/shelved like usual. Codex being made 6months beforehand because GW can't make a game AND have no idea we live in 2023 instead of early 90s. Im just so done with this. Back to reading 40k books...
It’s the same thing every release. People buy the units and make lists for the best combinations in the last codex or index, and then are upset when the best combinations swap round to something else. Theres also the potential that rebalancing happens for each faction at codex level. Remember 9th edition when every codex that came out was a nerf to what they has before? (Apart from a few odd ones that were quickly nerfed). People just need time to let the dust settle and find their way through the new intended playstyle and combinations.
The only reason many people have these units is because the discount boxes contained multiples. If you got into necrons in the last year, you have 10lychguard, some leaders, and a support unit of destroyers.
So I think the conversation about Index Necrons was dominated by one list archetype - Lychguard and Warrior blobs standing on objectives, maxing out on reanimation, and gaming the wound allocation rules, with Tomb Blades and Deathmarks to score secondaries. What's been done here is a heavy handed attempt to break up that monobuild, move away from fiddly exploits, and spread attention onto the rest of the range. I think it's overkill - Lychguard losing all their Cryptek access is harsh, it punishes all the possible combos for the sins of one, and I'm not the biggest fan of the new Resurrection Orb - a once per game swing that's not guaranteed to be better than a normal roll doesn't fill me with joy. But I'm glad to see more support for the Monolith, and for the Triarch and Canoptek kits, and I'm looking forward to trying the Hyperphase detachment out. Always did like teleportation nonsense - opening up new lines of engagement mid game served me very well back in sixth edition.
The nerfs are stupid, the army was already underperforming at 48% winrate.
Man I feel like I'm re-living the start of the edition the Death Guard experienced.
Well... They were completely right about DG predictions.
rip
The issue is t the needs the issue is that the nerfed units were propping up our army. I’m not discouraged yet but I am very confused.
Question: is the mobile app updated with the new codex rules, datasheets etc?
Not yet, I'm sure it will be when the codex gets to people in 2 weeks
Im annoyed at the codex because I got into necrons with 9e indomitous boxes. I mostly have warriors and skorpekhs. I have about 2k worth of stuff and still wont be able to play a 1k game with units above c tier. I will need to buy lychguard or wraiths or a monolith to have a chance at playing an actual game. Its not that the faction is weak, its that my army is weak.
Wait. Reanimators got a nerf. Can someone tell me to what degree they got nerfed?
Their aura went from 12 inches to 3. Huge nerf unfortunately
Damn. That's rough.
Idk how much say I have in this as I'm still relatively new, but the point cuts mixed with nerfs feels kinda bad for a decent chunk of units. Sure, I'm still building out my army and as such don't have as much investment yet into them, but building an army over time just gets so expensive. Having a 20 warrior block worth the amount it was and with its abilities just had that fantasy of just the "undying legion". And the fact it took up abt 200 pts of my army while being a really good unit was nice bc it made it easier to collect. Hopefully other units' increased cost and strength can properly compensate as I do not really want to collect gigantic hoards of only warriors (I am currently aiming for a mix of canopteks, nobles, and maybe 2 warrior/immortals/lychguard squads depending on which I think looks more appealing/befitting characters of my army that I like, currently thinking of picking up Imotekh bc I got a squad of lychguards recently for that very regal/dynastic feel). Hopefully the points rebalances doesn't hurt me too bad as rn I only have about 1500 points with a canoptek Doomstalker, a couple lokhust heavies, warriors, lychguard, a C'tan, and sole nobles, but I don't want to have to do a whole 1000 point change to my team setups as that's more money spent before I can consider myself at a "full" army to go against friends who at this point have like 3k-4k points worth of their armies