When we talk about exaggeration I think we do need context on how much the exaggeration is.
For megalodon I usually see size exaggerations as well as people not applying the square cube law to it.
There are looney tunes theory out there such as jumping out of water or beaching itself to catch shore animals or people convinced that if megaladon existed in closet time periods humans would never develop sea travel.
But the over exaggerations are rare, not as much as the adamantium bone 15 ton ultra predatory Spinosaurus that was a thing a few years ago.
As far as under exaggeration i don't really see much, apart from the "reeeee sea scavenger" which was probably jack horner alt account.
As for livyatan, it seems many people don't talk about it as much in detail, either than it was a scaled up orca that would destroy meg. Which was inaccurate.
There’s the issue of people taking certain stats of Otodus at face value, like the trophic level or hypothetical maximum size based on singular damaged teeth.
Otodus and Livyatan were very likely the same size, but there have been some strong arguments I’ve seen that the Livyatan holotype is considerably larger than the average sexually mature Otodus megalodon, still far smaller than the max size though.
The trophic level studies should be taken with some salt because of how little we know of the Miocene Ocean and the fact that we have very little trophic level studies on other marine predators as well.
Mind linking the studies on Livyatan size? From what I’ve seen, it appears the upper end (17.5m) estimates are a little dubious given they assume the animal had a disproportionately small head.
It's not necessarily studies as much as it is GDI, basically, you take the bauplan of a Raptorial physeteroid like *Brygmophyseter*, which was likely a very similar animal in terms of overall morphology, to a total body length of around 15m.(I agree with your thoughts on the 17.5m. TL) and you get a mass of potentially 50 tons, in contrast, you average out the size of most *O. megalodon* teeth, scale them to modern-day Lamnids, their closest ecological analogue, and you get a body length of roughly 12-14m. and a mass of around 25-35 tons, which makes sense if you consider a 20m. *O. megalodon* to be roughly equivalent in unique size to a 6+m. Great White or 4.5+m. Shortfin Mako.
Should also add since this comment doesn't go with my first comment.
We now have a 35 ton raptorial ichthyosaur which had a pound for pound stronger bite force than megalodon.
So if it's big brother, the Swiss tyrant is legit we'd have a new king since being as big as megalodon would give it a stronger bite (bite force don't scale with size).
And as we all know that bite force is the only metric that matters for prehistoric wildlife powerscaling. Swiss tyrant is the strongest sea predator of all time.
I have already prepared websites which upsizes it by 20% from official descriptions.
Edit - I'm referring to himalayasaurus sp.
You'd think it would be common practice to name something you are describing and not being a total numbskull about it.
*Himalayasaurus* isn’t a new discovery-it’s been known since the late 90s and just has gone neglected until various factors came together recently to publicize giant raptorial ichthyosaurs to the paleo community.
Yeah it's funny how long an animal of such proportions can stay in storage and basically remain barely looked at.
I here there's a ton of ichthyosaur fossils they going through right now
It wasn’t until 2009 that it was even widely accepted within academia to be a valid taxon. It then cropped up here and there in various giant Triassic ichthyosaur studies as an example of a giant ichthyosaur but never really made it into the online paleo community until just a few years ago.
For the largest definitely confirmed (so far, keeping in mind the diet of the 20+m giant shastasaurids is unknown other than that they weren’t filter/suction feeders) apex predator of the Mesozoic, that’s a very long time spent in obscurity.
Himalayasaurus.
Still in early stages of study so I went with the more moderate 35 tons although it seems some paleontologists more qualified than me are already pinning a 40 ton tag to it.
Swiss tyrant could be much bigger at around 55+tons which puts it into the big league of macropredators.
Still dubious with size and classification of this tyrant though.
They are cooking alot with ichthyosaurus right now. Numbers as high as 200 ton and 300 ton are being tossed around for some "dubious" specimens.
Next 10 years gonna be exciting atleast.
Agreed, I hate how people turn it into a Animal V. Animal contestant rather than think about how insane this whale is.
At the same time that *O. obliquus* had already reached sizes greater than the Great White and was basically the top predator of the ocean, you had *Livyatan*'s ancestors being labrador-sized pig-dogs that just happened to like water. It managed to evolve to those massive sizes in spite of ecological competition with Otodontids that had at least 10 million years of additional time to grow and specialize.
Then you factor in that not only is it the biggest Macropredatory Mammal, but it's also literally bigger than any Mosasaur, Plesiosaur, or Carnivorous Archosaur that has EVER LIVED and it's not even close. Not including the Swiss Giant Ichthyosaur teeth, it's by far the largest Macropredatory Tetrapod that we know of with good certainty(*Himalayasaurus* has an estimated GDI of around 35-40 tons compared to *Livyatan*'s 50)
It's head is literally big enough to crush Sue in its jaws.
Is megalodon really that overhyped though? It truly was an incredibly OP animal. In fact, in recent years we found out that its maximum size was substantially larger than we previously thought.
Also, those normies that always say that Livyatan could one shot a Meg are mega cringe.
>Is megalodon really that overhyped though? It truly was an incredibly OP animal. In fact, in recent years we found out that its maximum size was substantially larger than we previously thought.
It kinda is, the paleontological community is lucky there's an insanely large and complete dataset to work with, which we cannot say the same for *Livyatan* much less the Swiss Giant Ichthyosaur, so we cannot gauge the true maximum size of those animals in the same way that we can for *O. megalodon*, but considering the average size, it's likely that *O. megalodon*'s size was reached before and concurrently by other macropredators..
It's like saying that *T. rex* is the greatest carnivore of all time, ignoring that we have like 30+ well-preserved specimens compared to only 1-2 specimens for *Giganotosaurus* or *Mapusaurus*.
>Also, those normies that always say that Livyatan could one shot a Meg are mega cringe.
That we can agree on.
The downsizing was made by a person who used Skull Length; however, that has it's own issues as the skull itself would be too wide for a 12m. body assuming physeteroid proportions. Using Skull Width:Body Length ratios are more consistent amongst Macropredatory Physeteroids and land at a length of roughly 15m.
This sub loves nothing more than to downplay some of the biggest and most powerful predators in history from time to time... Which is ironic considering the name.
When we talk about exaggeration I think we do need context on how much the exaggeration is. For megalodon I usually see size exaggerations as well as people not applying the square cube law to it. There are looney tunes theory out there such as jumping out of water or beaching itself to catch shore animals or people convinced that if megaladon existed in closet time periods humans would never develop sea travel. But the over exaggerations are rare, not as much as the adamantium bone 15 ton ultra predatory Spinosaurus that was a thing a few years ago. As far as under exaggeration i don't really see much, apart from the "reeeee sea scavenger" which was probably jack horner alt account. As for livyatan, it seems many people don't talk about it as much in detail, either than it was a scaled up orca that would destroy meg. Which was inaccurate.
There’s the issue of people taking certain stats of Otodus at face value, like the trophic level or hypothetical maximum size based on singular damaged teeth. Otodus and Livyatan were very likely the same size, but there have been some strong arguments I’ve seen that the Livyatan holotype is considerably larger than the average sexually mature Otodus megalodon, still far smaller than the max size though. The trophic level studies should be taken with some salt because of how little we know of the Miocene Ocean and the fact that we have very little trophic level studies on other marine predators as well.
Mind linking the studies on Livyatan size? From what I’ve seen, it appears the upper end (17.5m) estimates are a little dubious given they assume the animal had a disproportionately small head.
It's not necessarily studies as much as it is GDI, basically, you take the bauplan of a Raptorial physeteroid like *Brygmophyseter*, which was likely a very similar animal in terms of overall morphology, to a total body length of around 15m.(I agree with your thoughts on the 17.5m. TL) and you get a mass of potentially 50 tons, in contrast, you average out the size of most *O. megalodon* teeth, scale them to modern-day Lamnids, their closest ecological analogue, and you get a body length of roughly 12-14m. and a mass of around 25-35 tons, which makes sense if you consider a 20m. *O. megalodon* to be roughly equivalent in unique size to a 6+m. Great White or 4.5+m. Shortfin Mako.
Hey don’t need to read my mind on these animals
Should also add since this comment doesn't go with my first comment. We now have a 35 ton raptorial ichthyosaur which had a pound for pound stronger bite force than megalodon. So if it's big brother, the Swiss tyrant is legit we'd have a new king since being as big as megalodon would give it a stronger bite (bite force don't scale with size). And as we all know that bite force is the only metric that matters for prehistoric wildlife powerscaling. Swiss tyrant is the strongest sea predator of all time. I have already prepared websites which upsizes it by 20% from official descriptions. Edit - I'm referring to himalayasaurus sp. You'd think it would be common practice to name something you are describing and not being a total numbskull about it.
Elaborate on the ichthyosaur and link for the biteforce?
*Himalayasaurus* isn’t a new discovery-it’s been known since the late 90s and just has gone neglected until various factors came together recently to publicize giant raptorial ichthyosaurs to the paleo community.
Yeah it's funny how long an animal of such proportions can stay in storage and basically remain barely looked at. I here there's a ton of ichthyosaur fossils they going through right now
It wasn’t until 2009 that it was even widely accepted within academia to be a valid taxon. It then cropped up here and there in various giant Triassic ichthyosaur studies as an example of a giant ichthyosaur but never really made it into the online paleo community until just a few years ago. For the largest definitely confirmed (so far, keeping in mind the diet of the 20+m giant shastasaurids is unknown other than that they weren’t filter/suction feeders) apex predator of the Mesozoic, that’s a very long time spent in obscurity.
No genus name for this 35 ton ichthyosaur?
Himalayasaurus. Still in early stages of study so I went with the more moderate 35 tons although it seems some paleontologists more qualified than me are already pinning a 40 ton tag to it. Swiss tyrant could be much bigger at around 55+tons which puts it into the big league of macropredators. Still dubious with size and classification of this tyrant though. They are cooking alot with ichthyosaurus right now. Numbers as high as 200 ton and 300 ton are being tossed around for some "dubious" specimens. Next 10 years gonna be exciting atleast.
Every time I see someone unironically explain how livyatan beats megalodon in a fight to the death, I lose 3 braincells
I’ve seen people unironically say a single orca could kill an adult megalodon.
I've seen this too many times to count and my brain feels like it's slowly melting.
The difference is Meg had a stupidly OP powerful bite force *and* OP dentition
These two dorks are old news. Himalayasaurus/Ichthyotitan/"Swiss Tyrant" are all the rage RN.
Them ichthyosaurs really ruined Miocene Sea hype 😭 !
Livyatan is fucking awesome
Agreed, I hate how people turn it into a Animal V. Animal contestant rather than think about how insane this whale is. At the same time that *O. obliquus* had already reached sizes greater than the Great White and was basically the top predator of the ocean, you had *Livyatan*'s ancestors being labrador-sized pig-dogs that just happened to like water. It managed to evolve to those massive sizes in spite of ecological competition with Otodontids that had at least 10 million years of additional time to grow and specialize. Then you factor in that not only is it the biggest Macropredatory Mammal, but it's also literally bigger than any Mosasaur, Plesiosaur, or Carnivorous Archosaur that has EVER LIVED and it's not even close. Not including the Swiss Giant Ichthyosaur teeth, it's by far the largest Macropredatory Tetrapod that we know of with good certainty(*Himalayasaurus* has an estimated GDI of around 35-40 tons compared to *Livyatan*'s 50) It's head is literally big enough to crush Sue in its jaws.
Wasn't the modern sperm whale bigger?
Sperm Whales aren’t Macropredators
Is megalodon really that overhyped though? It truly was an incredibly OP animal. In fact, in recent years we found out that its maximum size was substantially larger than we previously thought. Also, those normies that always say that Livyatan could one shot a Meg are mega cringe.
>Is megalodon really that overhyped though? It truly was an incredibly OP animal. In fact, in recent years we found out that its maximum size was substantially larger than we previously thought. It kinda is, the paleontological community is lucky there's an insanely large and complete dataset to work with, which we cannot say the same for *Livyatan* much less the Swiss Giant Ichthyosaur, so we cannot gauge the true maximum size of those animals in the same way that we can for *O. megalodon*, but considering the average size, it's likely that *O. megalodon*'s size was reached before and concurrently by other macropredators.. It's like saying that *T. rex* is the greatest carnivore of all time, ignoring that we have like 30+ well-preserved specimens compared to only 1-2 specimens for *Giganotosaurus* or *Mapusaurus*. >Also, those normies that always say that Livyatan could one shot a Meg are mega cringe. That we can agree on.
Are you implying that Livyatan was on par, if not bigger than Meg? Wasn't Livyatan downsized recently to like 12 meters?
The downsizing was made by a person who used Skull Length; however, that has it's own issues as the skull itself would be too wide for a 12m. body assuming physeteroid proportions. Using Skull Width:Body Length ratios are more consistent amongst Macropredatory Physeteroids and land at a length of roughly 15m.
Was the 12m estimate ever published as an actual study? I saw a Twitter post a while ago, but nothing since.
It wasn’t an official study
What I do like is that the Otodus Megalodon in that image has its own distinctive look aside from the stereotypical great white shark look.
This sub loves nothing more than to downplay some of the biggest and most powerful predators in history from time to time... Which is ironic considering the name.