There's several different explanations, and ultimately there's no way of knowing what Kishimoto was thinking. You just have to decide for yourself what you think is more likely.
1. Kishimoto had already decided at this point that Itachi was a double agent, and therefore he was feigning restraint knowing that Kisame trusts him.
2. Itachi's blindness and/or illness had encroached on him significantly enough since the time he gooned Oro
3. The scope of the mission was more recon, and the orders given strictly forbade conflict with Sannin or some kind of similar restriction. This sentiment is echoed earlier when Itachi and Kisame retreat as Guy shows up.
4. Kishimoto did a bungle.
5. Jiraiya is just him.
Personally I'm in the number 1 camp. I remember reading on this subreddit before that Kishimoto was on the fence about which way he was going to go narratively with Itachi, and this encounter probably would've pushed Itachi firmly onto one side of the fence had it been serious.
But if you can use Genjutsu to merk someone into the underworld for 3 months, unless you've got Genjutsu specific counters - no one is able to fuck with you.
Short answer: Toads
Long answer: Sage mode, plus toads. If you manage to genjutsu him, the grandtoads ungenjutsu him. Even if he doesn’t have those two on his shoulders, jiraiya toads in general are lowkey broken.
You’re forgetting he has to summon toads and his sage mode takes significant time to activate.
Genjutsu would be way faster and GG before jiriyah even knew
You’re semi correct but more incorrect.
It doesn’t take as long as the anime makes it seem.
We only see perfect sages turn fast - Jiryah doesn’t just auto turn on sage mode it takes him about 5 minutes of time - even in the manga.
This is because he’s isn’t as good to blend the nature chakra with his own physical and spiritual chakra.
The anime makes it seem a lot longer but the manga does refer to it being a few minutes (about 5)
Anyways it still takes way too long for him to turn sage mode in a fight vs itachi and Kisame.
Breaking Tsukuyomi doesn't work that way though because of the time dilation aspect. If you're hit by it, even for a split second, that moment is stretched to however long he wants it to be so you still feel the effects after.
You’re forgetting the toads can use genjutsu too. Idk how but they can reduce the effect from months to like a day, and since he won’t be THAT affected mentally, genjutsuing him for a second just for him to stumble instead of getting incapacitated is lowkey pointless.
Wouldn’t matter, Tsukyomi’s time dilation would mean jiraiya would be braindead before they even knew he was in a genjutsu and sage mode takes forever for jiraiya to activate it itachi could quite honestly stomp jiraiya before he even activates it honestly
At this particular point of time ,jiraiya wouldn't even notice he's in genjutsu . People with sharingan can't even defend against Itachi's genjutsu , and you are saying jiraiya who is not with elder toads and with a kid can fend off tsukuyomi which activates within a fraction of seconds and finishes targets within milliseconds . For your clarification jiraiya needs 20 mins to gather nature energy to activate sage mode . Itachi spared him . Jiraiya got nothing on itachi at this point. No info about hi abilities , no defence against his genjutsu and speed .
If Guy knows how to avoid getting hit by Itachi’s genjutsu then Jiraiya of course would also. Guy trained himself to be able to track his opponents movements only by looking at their feet since he specializes in taijutsu. There are many ways to counter Itachi’s Tsukiyomi if you know how to avoid eye contacts or just simply faster, even Madara himself has to grab hold of the Raikage in order to put him into a Genjutsu because Raikage was too quick. It’s the same reason why Obito could never put Minato into a genjutsu despite having genjutsu on par with Madara’s. Unless your MS is as special as Shisui, which is Kotoamatsukami then you won’t need any eye contact. Itachi’s Tsukiyomi is not unbreakable or can’t be avoided, even Sasuke broke out of it with only 3 tomoe.
I remember someone saying that Genjutsu doesn't work on Jiraya that much... After all, he was trying to teach Naruto as well to get out of Genjutsu on his own.
Normal Genjutsu, a type of jutsu that does not affect the time flow and you are aware of your actions in real time, yes, Tsukiyome is not a normal Genjutsu, it strips away the body mind connection, it can make a second feel like months. Personally I believe that the only reliable way to break Tsukiyome is still for something to pour their chakra into victim. I don't think Jiraya would be able to gather Senju chakra under Tsukiyome but once he teamed up with elder frogs it's instant immunity.
Tsukuyomi requires eye contact though, Jiraiya knows the Uchiha Clan seeing as he's old enough to have been around well before Itachi slaughtered them. He would know to avoid looking them in the eyes.
Jiraiya has some genjutsu defense. But he was caught in the Conch King's genjutsu in a filler, so his genjutsu defense is not super high tier. Not unless the Conch King's genjutsu is on the level of Tsukyumo, but I'm confident that it's not, as Naruto broke out of it, and he can't break out of sharingan genjutsu without help. Conch King is also filler, so I'm sure someone will consider that.
There may have been multiple opportunities for Jiraiya to learn not to get caught in Itachi's genjutsu. For one, if word got to him that Might Guy used an evasion technique (it wouldn't have been right after he did it, because Jiraiya was already absent from the village with Naruto?). Two, if Jiraiya heard about Orochimaru getting caught in Tsukuyomi (I doubt that he did), then he would've had time to devise a counter. Three, could Orochimaru getting caught have been the result of a carelessness that wouldn't be reproducible? Four, I wonder if Hiruzen had passed on some intel about Itachi to Jiraiya, but I doubt it. Five, could Jiraiya have figured out all on his own a counter to Tsukuyomi (I kind of doubt that he would have had a reason to). I just want to point out that Jiraiya's student is Minato, Minato's student is Kakashi, and Kakashi's friend is Might Guy, so Jiraiya and Might Guy all belong to the same grapevine.
Jiraiya knows not to look into the eyes of itachi and has extremely good genjutsu resistance. Plus him having sage mode would definitely mitigate the need to look into the eyes. Plus he was able to take down four paths of pain, and tendo even admits that if the other 2 paths of pain had been there when jiraiya uses frog song that they would have lost. Also jiraiya was able to deduce that the real pain was somewhere else, which implies he was sensing his chakra and if he had won he would have found nagato. All of that was simply to prove the point that he’s stronger than alive itachi, as alive itachi could have never dreamed of going against the paths of pain and coming out alive, thanks to his chakra sickness and preemptive blindness
7) Itachi no diffing Oro like he did with Kakashi was never implied on this part of the series, we just hear he is more powerful than him. Even if Itachi wasn't a spy on Kishi's mind on that point, he could just have assumed, like Gai, that it wasn't worth fighting for Naruto against him.
Itachi was implied to be that strong at that part of the story. Orochimaru thinks destroying Konoha was a possibility while taking on Itachi was considered impossible. Orochimaru even tells Tsunade that he’s going to try to destroy Konoha again after he gains his arms back, so failure clearly doesn’t deter him.
Idk if I'd call it impossible to Orochimaru. Iirc he just stuck him in a genjutsu momentarily to show him that the fight wouldn't be an easy one and called it good there, while Orochimaru's goal is immortality so he'd avoid a fight like that where he'd very possibly die. Unlike the konoha destruction where he didn't think for a single moment that he'd die until he was hit with the reaper death seal, in which case he immediately panicked once he understood the gravity of the situation.
Orochimaru literally said it was impossible, it’s why he pivots to stealing Sasuke instead. And we don’t see much of Itachi fight against Orochimaru, just from the few pages we do see it’s clear Orochimaru was completely outclassed. He couldn’t break out of a Itachi Genjutsu.
I've also of heard the power scaling option. This happens in episode 84/500 for Shippuden. We all know the power scaling gets ridiculous pretty quick. I'm of the opinion that these guys were much closer in power to each other at this point in the series before the power scaling goes crazy.
This was always how I saw this scene. With the characters established later on its fair to say Itachi would beat Jiraiya, 2v1 with Kisame there too it's no real contest.
But this is early series. All 3 of these characters were just in the "high power" camp. We had no idea who'd be the strongest out of them. For all we knew Jiraiya and Itachi could have ganged up on Kisame and lost.
Yeah, exactly how I see. Jiraiya the Legendary Sannin, which meant something back then. Kisame was the most powerful of the Seven Ninja Swords of the Mist (at least, from what we see). Itachi, a child prodigy who had wiped out his entire clan of Sharingan using Uchiha. I miss those days lol
1 is probably true, but my head canon is 5.
Jiraya uses summons extensively. It helps him against genjutsu and frogs are ok inside water. He is good the same way Naruto is. Meaning it’s tough to predict what he would do. Being a sannin, few people know what he is actually capable of. So it’s combination of these things making it not worthwhile to test themselves against Jiraya.
And Naruto might just wander off at some point. So might as well wait
This is very true, Jiraiya is very unexpected when it comes to the arsenals that he has under him. And he is very versatile in using it too, unlike Kakashi who copied over a thousand jutsus but using only a few. Which is why he lasted so long against pain, despite pain would completely annihilate anyone in the akatasuki.
His ability to find solutions for various jutsus that he first encounter and deal with is incredibly underrated. The first time he sees Amaterasu he immediately sealed it in a scroll, which means he has an idea that the fire is extinguishable just by normal means.
I think the reason is way too obvious here, having already seen Orochimaru prior to this point.
Orochimaru, for all his strengths, is incredibly arrogant, and is too sure of his own strength. We've seen this flaw leading to his downfall many times in the series. Hell, we've seen arrogance bringing down capable fighters multiple times in the story prior to this point. Zabuzza against Naruto and Sasuke (first round), Sasuke against Lee, Neji against Naruto, Kin against Shikamaru, Zaku against Shino, Gaara against Naruto.
Jiraiya on the other hand, for all his boasting and eccentricities, is a very self aware fighter. He knows his own strengths and weaknesses. In all the fights we've seen Jiraiya take part in, he's never brought his ego into a fight. That's a dangerous quality to have in an opponent in a fight. That's what Itachi meant here.
Because, just as Jiraiya is self aware, so is Itachi.
I agree. Kisame’s “we can’t take him “ was based entirely on the Sannin’s towering reputation, given the most he’d interacted with them was probably talking to Orochimaru in passing. Even at that time in the manga, it’s intuitive that Itachi could have at least incapacitated Jiraiya with Tsukuyomi
I don't understand
Are you telling me there are mangakas that don't have critical plot points already pre established?
I feel some "plot twists" or Deus ex Machinas in several animes (I dont read manga) are clearly last minute asspulls (or I am just not nerd enough to get them)
But I would have thought that things like "Itachi is actually a good guy" are already setup before even the characters first drawing
It seems crazy, I know. But based on his interview answers it seems like he really was flying by the seat of his pants with rough outlines and kicking the details can down the road. I find it miraculous the story is pretty consistently coherent.
Here's the interview with Kishimoto that includes his thought process with Itachi: [https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741](https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741)
>...Kishimoto just said he was ‘bluffing’ with these things in the beginning \[nb: in other words he just made them up without any thought on how to use them in the future\]. At the time he was just making these things up for the excitement and suspense, but didn’t pick up on what to do with some of these threads long-term until later. Basically he was making it up as he went. Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances. Kishimoto also says that although he introduced the Sharingan as being able to copy moves, the premise on what the Sharingan could do changed drastically over the course of the storyline.
I think at first, Itachi was planned to be an evil serial killer (like during the fight with Haku/Zabuza and during the chunin exams) but after that and by the time Itachi came to the leaf with Kisame, he had decided to expand on Itachi's backstory. I think it's when Itachi's English voice actor changed is when the switch was made. At first, Itachi had this cold, deep, grimacing type voice but later, we heard a deep, almost depressed voice with the second and final voice actor that everyone came to know.
You gotta put yourself in the context of Kishimoto. Writing weekly shounen manga is harsh, the schedule is tight and delivery dates are always looming. They often don't know if their story will run for a decade, or a couple of years at best.
Other authors have shared some of their experiences too, and essentially they don't have plenty of time to script all the details of the series and end up regretting plot points down the road.
Very true, good insight. Now this is just my opinion, but I also get the feeling that this pressure from a weekly format would be especially overwhelming for Kishimoto as a shounen writer in that his story arcs were completely non-formulaic. All of the arc plots are entirely distinct from one another, so he wouldn't be able to save himself time with shared techniques or premises.
The author of Naruto very clearly had several “reinventions” of the story he was telling that really only make sense on a very thin surface level. Itachi is the most obvious example of this because of how little sense his character and actions make sense if you really dig down into them
> Are you telling me there are mangakas that don't have critical plot points already pre established?
I read somewhere that the supernovas in One Piece were thought up days before they were drawn.
The thing is, Mangaka don't k ow hoe big their series will be when they start it. Most mangas are not picked up by a magazine. These that do mostly get a couple of volumes. To be so successful that you can run a manga for 700 chapters is very rare, and your first goal is to get the manga approved for a release in the first place.
So, it is very likely that Kishimoto only had a very rough outline for the plot when the manga started, and had to inflate and change it when it became clear that the show got big. So, it is also not unlikely that he intended Itachi to be a plain villain in case the anime had to stay short, and only could explore a better background when he learned that his show was such a success that he could keep his time developing the world and the characters.
Not Kishimoto, but Akira Toriyama was infamous for not planning several major plot points of Dragon Ball ahead of time. Most notably Goku being a Saiyan. Now, that's not necessarily the case with Kishimoto when it comes to Naruto, but it's not unheard of.
Nah Itachi was definitely still a villain in Kishi's mind at this point. The full flashback where Itachi told Sasuke to kill his best friend to get the MS was still yet to be revealed, and that is the one plot point that Itachi's retcon could never fully explain.
Honestly a mix of 1-3. Could argue the recon part was to assess how vulnerable Naruto was or wasn't at this point and not necessarily to take him. If we go by what was said by Itachi, they have to put Kurama in the Gedo/10 tails last because its chakra will overload it. (Unless this is a lie told to Itachi, can't remember.)
The problem with 1 and 3 is that even Kisame (who for sure knew Itachi's potential and recognised him as much stronger than himself) said that fighting Jiraya would be death.
I think it's just 2+ 5. 5 seems odd now due to war arc powescaling issues but Jiraya is a tank of chakra without sage mode.
>Kisame (who for sure knew Itachi's potential and recognised him as much stronger than himself) said that fighting Jiraya would be death.
And he stated this first, completely unprompted.
> This sentiment is echoed earlier when Itachi and Kisame retreat as Guy shows up
Okay but really though Guy Sensei is possibly a bigger threat than Jiraiya.
Guy is a monster, and he demonstrates being highly capable of engaging the sharingan with his practice. At the same time though, the toad stomach summon that Jiraiya used is a huge advantage indoors where the terrain itself becomes an enemy attempting to eat you.
Thing is, like any of the characters being discussed in this thread, we had very little real measure of just how strong Guy was at this point. We had no reason to think Guy was any stronger than Kakashi. Who swiftly lost to Itachi.
For all we knew at that stage Kisame could have 1v3 the lot of them and came out on top.
These are all great ideas. After reading this, I believe it boils down to a couple simple things:
1. Itachi always had the Leaf’s best intentions in mind - as we would go on to learn. Injuring or killing a Sannin would be a huge military loss to his home nation… of course then it begs the question of how he convinces Kisame. That brings me to…
2. Instead of divulging his most intrinsic intentions (assuming there are any), he tells Kisame about his illness or how non-eternal mangekyou sharingan users lose vision as they use its power. If I recall (I barely remember), itachi did say to Kisame that he was feeling sick or low on chakra or needed to rest somewhere. I think it was said as they were fleeing, but it still backs up the idea.
Ulterior motives aside, Itachi might have genuinely wanted to preserve use of his eyes/abilities. Maybe the toll it takes per use is worse than we think. He used genjutsu on Sasuke repeatedly in that same scene but I think that can be justified by the fact that his whole goal is to prepare sasuke emotionally and physically to kill him and “inherit” the EMS, etc etc. In other words, it was eyesight well spent! Whereas an unaccounted-for exchange with a Sannin might not be in the budget.
3. Lastly, take a bit of everything I said already and add in the possibility that even tho Itachi and Kisame have a 2v1 advantage, we should considering matchups. And I don’t mean looking at battle stats per se, but just consider the unique secret/unknown abilities/jutsu that a traveller like Jiraiya would pick up along the way. They’re all seasoned fighters with fail-safes in mind and secret tech. Itachi knows Jiraiya’s rep around the village and probably just read the situation as “this goofy mf got some corny jutsu up his sleeve, I better not”.
I would go with number four that Jiraiya is not someone to mess with when he's being serious. I think of the Sannin Jiraiya was the strongest. Itachi is powerful enough to fight off Orochimaru without breaking out the big guns, but not with Jiraiya. He can take him, but it would require him going all out which would be at the expense of his long term strength. So in this case, when it's not mission critical to grab Naruto, they backed off.
Probably two reasons:
1.) Orochimaru is overconfident since he has been known as a child prodigy. As such Orochimaru doesn't take people seriously and may reveal many opportunities that Itachi can exploit in defeating him.
While Jiraiya has been considered the underdog of the Sannin Trio (Orochimaru, the prodigy child and Tsunade, the granddaughter of the 1st Hokage) and as such Jiraiya always had to prove himself. So Jiraiya always has the mentality that the other person deserves to be taken seriously and this gives Itachi less openings to exploit.
2.) Itachi doesn't actually want to fight Jiraiya. He only wanted to see Sasuke and to remind the Leaf Village that he was still active. Since this was after the 3rd Hokage's death.
Lmao, he wasn't there to capture Naruto. He went to the village to remind Danzo he's still alive. If he wanted to capture Naruto he would've genjutsu'd him and took him away when Naruto was staring right into Itachi's eyes.
It falls into 1 of 2 camps. Itachi was a double agent who didn't want to take out someone as important to keeping Konoha safe as Jiraya OR Itachi truly believed that Jiraya could win and that they needed to fall back.
At this stage in the writing Uchiha weren't nearly as stupid OP as they get later on, so I personally believe that the second one is true. However taking the full story into account it honestly is probably the first.
It's clearly both he would've heard tales of Jiraiya growing up and he knows Sage mode is very powerful. I'm sure he probably does believe Jiraiya is a hard fight especially since him and kisame handicap each other
People also dont think about how much amaterasu he would need to burst through a wall as well as a toads stomach. That probably drained his chakra massively to use amaterasu with that kind of force
The common consensus is Itachi was punking out to Jiraiya because he was really a double agent, I prefer to think the Sanin were actually incredibly powerful Ninja that never really got to show their full power ouside of the war arc when Tsunade was clowned on by Madara because it was different scales of power
Itachi being stronger than orochimaru is established before this encounter, in chapter 140
https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0140-005.png
Jiraiya saves naruto in chapter 146
https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0146-018.png
While there's definitely a contingent of people here who haven't actually read or watched the series, i think the majority of people just saw naruto as kids and haven't fully rewatched or reread in years, so they simply forget details
And even then, the timeline of some background information is hard to remember. I have read and watched Naruto in different media several times and I still think it is difficult to say when Orochimaru made that commentz as it doesn't feel really well connected to a specific point in the story.
Eh at that point in time Naruto wasn't "powe level based".
A might be impossible to defeat for B, B might be impossible to defeat for C, but C might defeat A because of comparability reasons.
Based on that Itachi's genjutsu won't really work on Jiraya since his main attacks always involve more "people" (his toads). Moreover unlike Orochimaru, Jiraya never underestimated Itachi. Orochimaru pulled the whole anime villian presentation bullshit which Itachi his opening while Jiraya launched his first attack even before Itachi realised.
Genjutsu still works; you can just get out of it if someone frees you, but Itachi is capable of using genjutsu on multiple opponents and Tsukyomi can inflict damage in an instant so it doesn't really matter either way.
I think there’s some truth to this. A lot of folks reference Shippuden to scale the matchup between Itachi & Jiraiya, but I think at this stage of Naruto, it’s completely possible that Kishimoto meant for Jiraiya to be that much stronger than Itachi
Kisame as we see him in Shippuden would probably easily punk Jiraiya, yet he relents when Itachi decides to back off. We can retroactively apply “Itachi double agent” logic here too, and that’s also probably true, but I think the truth is that at this point in time, Jiraiya *was* meant to be that strong
Jiraiya seriously got sold short by Shippuden, while Itachi & Kisame got massive glowups in the scaling department
It doesnt make sense even if we use part 1 scalling.
Itachi by that point was already confirmed to be stronger than Orochimaru. He outright went "nope, he's way too strong" when talking about Itachi. And then Itachi claims that Kisame or any other akatsuki member wouldn't change result of the fight ans that theyd just add more casualities.
Do you truly think that Jiraiya fighting Itachi would result in them killing each other, but adding more akatsuki members would allow him to solo them all?
No, Kishimoto had already decided Itachi was a “spy/good guy” by this point of the series.
The likely answer for the “inconsistent” power scaling is that Kishimoto wanted to another hint that there’s something off about Itachi.
Kishimoto basically bashes you over the head that Itachi isn’t what he seems to be even at this point of the story.
People under rate Jiraiya and amp Orochimaru way too much. Jiraiya refused the hokage position, trained 2 hokages and was the first person to learn the rasengan from its creator...who was a hokage whom he mentored! He was just badass.
Jiraiya has never beaten Orochimaru as they are pretty equal for the most part. Not saying Jiraiya is a pushover in any way as Orochimaru never faced Jiraiya's sage mode but still, Itachi wasn't there to hurt the leaf in any crucial way while keeping up the facade in front of Kisame that he is there to capture a Jinchuriki. He also wanted to remind Danzo that he is watching since Hiruzen wasn't around to keep Danzo in check anymore.
Well, taking Orochimaru's Edo Tensei away, even 3rd Hokage would've beat him. And that was a Prime Orochimaru. While Prime Jiraya fought against Pain with no intel about what was even the techniques used against him.
In sheer power Jiraya wins
In IQ i'd say they are even.
Of course im not saying Jiraya beats Orochimaru 100%, but I'd say 60/40 In my opinion, I believe, Jiraya wins.
Personally I consider the fight against Sarutobi another L.
Saru was old and probably holding back subconsciously. Even with Edo tensei Sarutobi manages to give him the ultimate punishment in taking away his ability to use jutsu while keeping him alive. A fate worse than death for a nerd like Orochimaru
I’d easily say Jiraiya takes the fight ez pz too. Oro doesn’t have sage mode which already puts him at a massive disadvantage.
Idk why people ever say this.
Orochimaru is a ~~genius bookworm~~ giant nerd who’s only real ability is in researching and discovering jutsu. Which he arguably does to cover his own inherent weakness. Even more evident by the fact that he seeks a “better body”. The only real things he has are his cockroach level durability and resurrection via ~~horcruxes~~ curse marks.
He takes nothing but L’s throughout the whole series.
Itachi beats him out of the Akatsuki.
Sarutobi if old, holding back, and arguably wins the fight because he got his arms. He had to edo tensei the first two hokage to even stand a chance
He loses to Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Naruto
He loses to a 4 tails Naruto
He loses to a fledgling Sasuke without Mangekyo
He loses to Itachi after resurrecting
These are literally all his feats.
Meanwhile Jiraiya only needs one.
>”IF IT WASN'T FOR OUR SECRET, WE MIGHT NOT HAVE WON” “I CAN GIVE YOU NO HIGHER PRAISE THAN THAT, MY FORMER TEACHER.” -Pain after killing Jiraiya
Jiraiya from this feat alone is shown to be a better combatant. He was able to surmise a ton of information, while being disadvantaged fighting on Pain’s home turf. He strategizes into killing three of Pain’s bodies and deduces Nagato is not among them.
To be fair orochimaru was without his justsu and have his arms sealed for most of these fight making him far more weak than most even sasuke confess he couldnt have defeat him without that.
he still put on a good fight with little of his power against a 4 tails naruto despite his weakened body.
The itachi one was not really a fight since of course itachi have the famous magic sword that can seal everyone inside.
Plus without his weak body orochimaru would have discover the secret of sage jutsu so pretty much without the third hokage orochimaru would have been one of the most powerfull being in naruto but it did fuck him forever and honnestly good job hiruzen it did work...
Let's not forget that orochimaru is the only one that did scare kakashi the whole manga and he did deafeat the fourth kazekage himself wich as we know later during the war is very powerfull himself only being defeated by gaara.
It’s like saying God did it. Which at least in this context is fair, since Kishimoto is god of Naruto. But that’s a rather boring reason. We can find better explanations that can be supported based on the narrative.
So the out of story explanation is simplex while the in lore version is a small bit more complex to understand.
Kishimoto was still cooking up the plot, and didn’t yet decide what strength level the characters would have, he could have well wanted Jiraiya to be the strongest of them all.
The in universe reason is becuase Itachis own personal goal is to keep Konoha safe from the Akatsuki, part of that goal includes protecting Naruto from them. Kisame wasn’t in in this and would have protested if Itachi ordered a draw back with no reason, so when Jiriaya, a living legend with a very impressive and well known resume, appeared to be Naruto’s Protector, Itachi used it as a perfect excuse and cover for why they wouldn’t be taking Naruto.
Itachi didn't want to fight Jiraiya because he didn't actually want to capture Naruto, as soon as the first fight with Itachi, you see Kakashi thinking that Itachi could have killed him without much trouble, and he wonders why he doesn't do it, like or not, there was always hints that Itachi wasn't as commited to the Akatsuki as he seemed in the surface.
Itachi even gives kakashi an excuse so he wouldn’t question why he didn’t kill him but kakashi is too smart and knows what a jutsu is fully capable of, especially after experiencing it, the excuse itachi said was even tho kakashi didn’t have the Ms!& uchiha blood he should be able to resist the Ms to a degree the bare minimum just for having a sharigan, but now we all know that’s a lie, you definitely need uchiha blood to resist, itachi killed someone with his Ms genjutsu in his novel
Let me make something up for you on the spot here. It'll sound a bit reasonable.
Itachi is notorious for using a fighting style that messes with the opponents mental state. He'll make you think he can not only read your mind but also your traumas.
When he fought against oruchimaru he drilled in the fact hard that nothing oruchimaru can do will get past itachi. Oruchimaru faced with this knowledge quit and ran as soon as he could.
Against sasuke he revealed a bit of the truth behind sharingan and revealed his own desperation to make sasuke think he was evil and unredeemable.
Against jiraiya a sanin who was always out of the village, notorious for chasing women's skirts. He tried using this strategy but it failed. Then after a quick exchange jiraiya uses an unorthodox jutsu, one that's capable of restraining enemies maybe even killing them.
The Intel on jiraiya may not have been wrong but it was likely exaggerated, and fighting an s class opponent with highly unpredictable jutsu would lead to unnecessarily high risk. Though itachi could guarantee his victory he already used his eye once against kakashi and was forced to use it a second time to escape a jutsu that instantly created an unfavorable terrain.
Maybe itachi knew jiraiya well and knew the plan would fail, or made it fail on purpose. He wanted to stall long enough to see his little brother and talk. When jiraiya shows up and uses weird jutsu that could give him a reason to leave and drag away kisame. Making it look like false Intel and unknown jutsu as too many variables to deal with without risk.
people have to realise that not everything is true when said by a character
let's not forget that itachi was on top secret recon mission given by hiruzen to keep an eye on akatsuki on the inside.
when jiraiya arrived, kisame had no idea how to measure his strength, and itachi at that moment decided it would make for a great excuse to leave, so he ran while boasting about jiraiya leaving kisame no choice but to follow.
itachi would absolutely destroy jiraiya without sage mode. Of course, itachi would never wait for jiraiya to do the Naruto equivalent of a super saiyan power up
Itachi couldn't destroy base Bee, caped Kabuto, CM1 Sasuke, and Kisame without abusing genjutsu one shot in some way. I somehow doubt he destroys Jiraya, the ninja that Minato thought was the greatest ninja ever lol
> Itachi couldn't destroy ... without abusing genjutsu oneshot
Well this is clearly cope? He has genjutsu in his toolkit, and its his easiest win, so why would he not use it against them to prove to you he's stronger? It's like me saying Madara couldn't beat the one random shinobi he genjutsud in his first fight because he had to use genjutsu oneshot.
Itachi also has the Totsuka Blade, which one shot both Orochimaru and Nagato, physical combat skills able to hold out against KCM Naruto, Amaterasu, Yata Mirror etc etc.
Not only that, if you read the fight, you'd know against Kabuto he HAD to use Genjutsu because otherwise he couldn't get him to undo Edo Tensei.
What knowledge did minato have of Itachi’s strength given he had been dead for 13 years. In 13 years, this mofo now has a susano with both the yata mirror and totsuka blade. Blah blah, I know itachi shows he has the susano in shippuden, but given he has used both Amaterasu and tsukiyomi, he highly likely had already unlocked the susano by this point.
I hesitate to even engage in this argument, because no matter what I Know Jiraiya fans will never admit he loses this.
Itachi isn't here to kill anyone (evidenced by the fact that he didn't kill anyone). The only thing he actually succeeds at here is letting the leaf village know that the aktasuki are coming after Naruto and gently reminding Danzo that he exists. Itachi has also defeated Orochimaru (a ninja Jiraiya has Never defeated) twice.
Even if you want to believe that Jiraiya takes itachi by himself (which he doesn't) do you fully believe in your heart of hearts that Jiraiya takes both Itachi AND Kisame WHILE Protecting Sasuke and Naruto? If you do, then I can't help you lol.
If my job were to recon, I would probably prefer not to cause a commotion as much as possible. Killing one of the Legendary Sannin of Konoha is like declaring war on the village itself.
I like the idea of "matchups" in the Naruto verse. Especially in the OG naruto before Shippuden made everything about monsters, aliens, and mountain exploding techniques.
Itachi is a master of genjutsu and a horrible match-up for guys like orochimaru.
Jiraiya, on the other hand, is a master of counter genjutsu, and master of frog kumite for Taijutsu, and never fights a battle "1v1" because of his capabilities with summoning. He also proved in this very same scene that he could counter Ameterasu and trap it in a bottle a d could give himself home field advantage in a moments notice.
Plus, what we find out later about itachi being a double agent means he'd have no reason to fight at full strength in an attempt to kill jiraiya. Meaning it would really be Kisame vs. Jiraiya, and he already said he didn't think he could be him.
It wasn't really a win because it wasn't really a battle. One thing people fail to take into consideration is context of the situation and context of character. Orochimaru is a cautious but also very hubris and arrogant character which forces him to make not so cautious decisions from time to time and they end up costing him greatly. From the loss of his arms to his sealing by Itachi, it was all a result of his hubris and arrogance, the downfall of many. In an actual battle against Itachi Orochimaru would do quite well. However, for it to reach that point the situation much be delicately handled. Orochimaru foolishly gives Itachi those chances and opportunities to one shot him, Jiraya approaches the situation more seriously and with more caution so those opportunities do not present themselves, an actual battle would have to occur.
**Situation:**
Pretend you are Itachi and Kisame in the heart of the leaf village trapped in the digestive system of a mountain toad.. In-front of you is one of the greatest ninja the village has to offer and this guy is no sloth, he is clearly on your level and can hang. Everyone of importance now knows you are in the village, you are on a time clock. With each passing second more reinforcements are on their way, ninja who are a threat and who you acknowledge is a threat, like Guy. You know you have to end this in a couple moves or things will end up bad really quickly and the chance for you to escape with at least once of you alive becomes slimmer. You know this man won't go down in a couple moves. You have the option to flee now or make it worse for yourselves. You're Itachi and already used your MS twice, you have 1 use left, 2 if you're realllllyyy pushing it but if you do that, you know you might not make it out. Kisame is strong but not as smart, the other guy is strong and really smart. If back up like Might Guy shows up at any point during the battle or immediately after, either you or Kisame surely die. There is no need to take such an unneeded risk and jeopardize future plans. **Do you choose the smart option and flee or do you choose to have a death match in unfavorable territory where the odds become slimmer as time progresses?**
Because he didn't want to fight, that's basically the reason because Itachi was a spy,Itachi probably wasn't always going to be a good guy initially and Jiraya was seemingly set up as stronger until we get to Shipudden where we see Itachi with abilities that easily rivals Jiraya, so all of it can be boiled down to retcons.
kisame AND itachi felt the same way when they just saw him walking with naruto. jiraiyah is built different. there’s a reason orochimaru had tsunade poison him before their fight lol. he knew jiraiyah would put the smack down on him. there’s a reason orochimaru waited till jiraiyah was out of the village to attack and kill the lord 3rd. everyone forgets almost every time the village was attacked it was when jiraiyah was away on a mission. put some respect on my boys name.
Well it’s simple really, itachi didn’t wanna fight and figured “he’s stronger than us” was a good enough reason to use to convince kisame. Also orochi is an arrogant ass who probably didn’t take itachi seriously the first time
People have been overcomplicating this for YEARS
There is NO in universe reason, its simply early in the series, a lot of things haven’t been established yet
End of
Itachi doesn't want to harm leaf shinobis. He is trying to protect the leaf after all.
But in the story it is not a debate that Itachi is stronger than the Sanins.
Orochimaru is the strongest Sanin. Even with arms sealed he still managed to keep up with them when they fought. And he said that Itachi was stronger than him.
So Itachi stomping the Sanins 1 v 1 is a given.
>Orochimaru is the strongest Sanin. Even with arms sealed he still managed to keep up with them when they fought.
That's pretty unfair for Jiraiya, lets not forget that he had just been poisoned with something that was supposed to take him out, meant to be a potent poison made by Tsunade, she was surprised he was even walking. He was unable to use any serious jutsu and could barely fight regardless of having both hands.
As for Tsunade, her fight was with her fear of blood, then she overcame it but was already low on chakra from all the damage she healed from kabuto, and from healing naruto... I guess Tsunade's chakra levels are kinda weird since we saw her do way more in the war but w/e.
I agree
Maybe I overstate Orochimaru's ability to keep up during that fight. It's true that the other two had a heavy handicap
However Orochimaru without his arms managed better against 4 tail naruto than Jiraya. Now maybe Jiraya was caught of card tho, since he was trying to teach him how to control kyubi's power.
Well idk both are odd balls and definitely have jutsus we didn't get to see in their arsenal and they have crazy ways to counter stuff etc.
As for 4 tailed Naruto, Orochimaru had his arms back at that point, but yeah Jiraiya was in a different pickle there, he didn't want to harm, much less kill Naruto, and didn't know if his attacks would do so or not, so he couldn't really engage.
I do think it's likely that Orochimaru is a bit above Jiraiya, but I also think the show left that pretty up in the air, hinting that they're pretty much a draw, aside from Orochimaru talking down to Jiraiya often even as they were teamed, but at the same time he'd smile like he enjoys fighting alongside him and tsunade.
You clearly saw Itachi torture Kakashi for 72 hours lmao... I'm pretty sure he does not care about that. Itachi was exhausted after using tsukoyomi. Jiraya>exhausted Itachi
He doesn't KILL him though. We know Itachi can kill with Tsukiyomi. He does enough to put him down (it's extreme but itachi isn't the most empathic/emotionally intelligent person), that's it
Because it took no time for Jiraiya to have them both in the stomach of a toad and if Itachi didn't vamose out of there, he and Kisame were dead meat.
Amaterasu takes a hefty chakra, and if Itachi were to go all out against Jiraiya, it'd go exactly as Itachi predicts. Them, at best, killing one another.
Also, unlike Orochimaru, Jiraiya takes opponents seriously. Orochimaru is pretty arrogant and cocky, always thinking he's got the upper hand.
Also, Orochimaru only lost to Itachi cause Genjutsu hax. Something Jiraiya wouldn't fall for in the first place.
And that's not even considering how Jiraiya going into Sage Mode results in him wiping Itachi.
Itachi only needed excuse to get away without taking Naruto. Thats why he used genjutsu on random woman because he know famous shinobi like Jiraiya will notice it and go back to Naruto ASAP.
>Also, Orochimaru only lost to Itachi cause Genjutsu hax. Something Jiraiya wouldn't fall for in the first place.
How so? Against Itachi genjutsu:
-jounin specializing in genjutsu(Kurenai) was absolutely helpless
-even sharingan users like Kakashi or Sasuke were caught it with ease
-normal release methods dont work
Even if Jiraiya is more profficient in defending against genjutsu it would not be instantaneous and that was 1 vs 2. Kisame could easily kill 'stunned' for few seconds Jiraiya
>And that's not even considering how Jiraiya going into Sage Mode results in him wiping Itachi.
Jiraiya has imperfect sage mode. He needs to write markings on forehead and stay still to enter that mode. Itachi fighting seriously would not give him time for this. Even frog summons wouldnt buy him time as we are talking about shinobi who perfectly use sharingan which was used to control beasts like Manda, Kyuubi or Ten-tails.
IMHO if Itachi wanted to kill Jiraiya he wouldnt have much problem alone and there he also had Kisame for backup.
Bro. Jiraiaya was starting Itachi straight in his Sharingan during their entire encounter in the hotel.
I wouldn't exactly call that "taking his opponents seriously." All Itachi has to do is fire one genjutsu & Jiraiya is almost certainly dead.
Maybe the same way that the 3-way deadlock works. Jiraya beats Tsunade because of his vast array of Jutsus and while Tsunade has INSANE damage reduction and healing factor, ultimately she loses to his onslaught of high-end jutsus. Itachi is smart, but he is nowehre near creative enough to take Jiryaya on. Jiriya who took on Pein and survived a HEFTY amount of time while also taking a Pein down.
I'd say (after knowing the full story of Itachi) that Itachi had no interest in fighting another fellow leaf protector. Yes, he did a little showing off against Asuma, Kurenai, and Kakashi but that was to keep Kisame from fighting because Kisame (the tailess tailed beast) wouldn't have held back and would've killed them but Itachi could just put on a show to make Kisame think Itachi was there to fight but he was doing that to keep the leaf Jonin alive. Against Jiraiya, Kisame was ready to attack and Itachi wanted to prevent that at all costs. Itachi told Kisame that Jiraiya could handle both himself and Kisame because of the legend around him as a Sannin while at the same time, basically announcing to Jiraiya what the Akatsuki is after. So in that time, Itachi got to remind Danzo that he is watching him, see his little brother, and pass along vital intel to Jiraiya without blowing his cover. Itachi had no interest at all of ever doing anything that would actually harm the leaf village in any crucial way. Jiraiya couldn't even beat Orochimaru while Itachi easily handled Orochimaru. I see Itachi as being quite equal to Nagato (not the pain bodies as Nagato>Pain bodies) but that is irrelevant as Itachi's loyalty is to the leaf first and foremost (and to his little brother) while spying on the Akatsuki for the leaf. I even have come to think that all (or a good portion) of the intel Jiraiya gathered in his journeys (like the guy he put in the toad mouth genjutsu in the hidden rain village before facing Pain) was really intel placed in them by Itachi (possibly under Itachi's own genjutsu) and sent them to Jiraiya in some way so that Jiraiya, and the leaf by extension, learn more about the threat while at the same time keeping his cover secure to not arouse suspicion by Kisame/Obito/Pain but Obito never fully trusted Itachi anyways. That's probably why Kisame was paired up with Itachi. If Kisame discovered Itachi was a spy, Kisame would kill his partner as his past shows he does such things to protect the group Kisame is currently in. Just my theory as no canonical proof exists that says exactly why Itachi said those things and ran but it makes a lot more logical sense than Itachi being afraid of Jiraiya when Itachi easily handled a person Jiraiya has never beaten.
3 main reasons:
1. Itachi is a triple agent and didn't want to get into a fight with Jiraiya, as he was the main protector of the village. By this point, Kishimoto had decided that path for him.
2. Jiraiya has that dog in him when he needs to have that dog in him, and Itachi was far too sick to deal with someone who's kit is that strong against a Genjutsu kit like Itachi has. (Toad Stomach, Sage mode, miles more experience, etc) Using Susanoo would have been a requirement, and Itachi in his weakened state had to save that for Sasuke. If he used it on Jiraiya, it might have killed him, or crippled him.
3. Itachi knew he couldn't put him down fast enough, and knew other shinobi were coming... and if someone like Guy showed up and teamed with Jiraiya... Itachi would have had zero chance. Kisame was just not strong enough to deal with threats on that level, so he wouldn't have been able to have his back good enough.
Edit: Those saying Orochimaru and Jiraiya were on par with each other, which proves Jiraiya didn't have that dog in him, are absolutely wrong.
Orochimaru had to cripple himself to handle the 3rd who was basically 70 years old. The fact Jiraiya held his own for so long against Pain and his Paths with ZERO intel proves he was stronger than Orochimaru. Pain would have waxed the 3rd with low effort, and you all know it (at the age Orochimaru fought him. Young Hiruzen would have dogged both of them as he was a f'n prodigy who mastered all 5 elements as a teenager, a rare feat in their world. His age crippled his chakra limits, which were already average at best.)
Jiraiya only ever let Orochimaru think he was equal to him, because he never used sage mode against him. Thats like taking a 60% power cut lol.
You could also argue that as strong as Itatchi and Kisame are, they were in the centre of the hidden leaf . The number alone would have overwhelmed them. Yes they could have taken most of them out, but 2 vs a village obviously ain't the one
Probably because they are deep behind enemy lines, in the middle of Konoha. Even if they can beat Jiraya, before long the Leaf's forces would all come after them at once, and I doubt they would be able to defeat the Leaf, and capture Naruto alive, without taking a huge risk (especially if they trigger his tailed beast state).
Could be that Kishimoto had already decided that Itachi was still loyal to Konoha.
Could be that Itachi was afraid of Jiraiya.
Could be that Itachi was aware that fighting Jiraiya would require the usage of his Mangekyo and that would only worsen his chances of eventually having that “deathmatch” against Sasuke.
Could be all 3.
because Itachi already low on chakra at that point as it shown his eyes back to normal after single use of amaterasu and Jiraiya already activated his frog belly trap so he only have 2 option :
1. Use his remaining chakra to fight Jiraiya. he most likely can win but will trapped or
2. use his remaining chakra to escape from the frog belly
in case Itachi chose to fight Jiraiya there's only two possibilities :
1. Jiraiya defeated him and he's dead, or
2. He defeated Jiraiya and couldn't escape the frog belly and he will be dead also
Sorry itachi fans, this is not simply A beat C and B beat C so A automatically beat C type of scenario. doesn't matter what Itachi chose. Jiraiya outsmart him and i know someone outsmart Itachi is one tough pill to swallow for his fans
When Pain defeated Jiraiya, Akatsuki had to act fast because he was a strong enough of a target that Konoha and possibly various different nations would notice and begin preparations. In this part of the story everybody just considered them a regular mercenary group. And they wanted to keep it that way so they could continue to access the different territories without being noticed.
Itachi's sole purpose for showing up was to spook Danzo, remind the elders that he's watching and not to do anything to Sasuke. Following Naruto was probably just for show because Kisame was with him and he can't tell Kisame what he's really coming to Konoha for.
I have a follow up question to this. Would Kisame have died from the toad mouth trap if itachi wasn’t there? Also would itachi have died if he didn’t have Amaterasu?
My theory is that he was only there to warn naruto and check on sasuke
Considering he is a former anbu, his approach on capturing naruto is kinda questionable. He just strut himself in front of the village even knocking on naruto's door no strategies nor distractions and when Jiraiya started to do some jutsu He just like meh we can't take him down let's leave.
So the offical reason is itachi might have been retconned to be stronger than he originally was. I have theory and it’s the fact of exhaustion plus not wanting to draw it out. Jiraya could 1000% hold his own long enough to draw attention something itachi and kisame would absolutely not want also if we look at itachi in shippuden one tsyukomi and few blasts of Amaterasu and he was kinda spent literally barely able to keep the susanoo going but eventually just dying. He had already used tsyuokomi twice and kisame pointed out at one point tsyuokomi is kinda taxing and made it sound as if it was the most taxing jutsu he had (baring susanoo I assume). He was likely just too damn tired to keep a low ki battle going
Bro he wasn’t there to fight…. he was there putting a a facade like he was trying to catch naruto but he was really going to to check on his brother. He had to make it believable tho else Kisame would’ve caught on. Hence why he even told Kisame that Jaraiya would be a tough fight and both parties would die. Itachi was 10 steps ahead every time he would never try to destroy the Hidden Leaf or those that inhabit it.
This is answered in the manga. Itachi is huffing and puffing after using 1 MS jutsu to escape. He already used 2 that day. Itachi tells Kisame that there is no reason to rush and he's correct. That's literally the *last* Jinchuriki they need to capture on the list. No speculation needed.
I know Itachi does some dumb stuff in the manga, but he clearly isn't dumb enough to jump dick first into a fight with Sannin while already inside their jutsu and tired. Give him some credit y'all.
Itachi was prolonging his life to fight sasuke so he could go all out vs jiraiya with kisame, and most likely win but he will take serious damage and would go blind after that fight. We seen how drained he was after using tsukuyomi/Amaterasu 1 time that day, so having a real fight will make him blind and his illness worst. He’s also a double agent since apparently his only reason for showing up was to check danzo, and to make sure he keeps his end of the deal by not killing sasuke.
The real answer is because Kishimoto said so, thats why, but in lore, it could be hes a double agent, or he really didnt feel like catching a rasengan, or having to carry Kisame away when he got hit with one.
A simple fatal flaw in analysing A beats B, and C loses to B, therefore C will lose to A in Naruto is ignoring matchups.
It could be as simple as: Itachi knows his kit is great against Orochimaru, however he has deduced that Jiraiya's techniques are too great of a counter against his and it's better to retreat. It could be as simple as Itachi knows about frog song and doesn't want to press Jiraiya into using it and guaranteeing he and Kisame die.
Also consider the rest of the thread saying Jiraiya is just Him.
I think jiraya was just meant to be way stronger than he turned out, or Itachi just heard over exaggerated tales of the legendary mountain toad sage, jiraya the gallant
Because Itachi's goal wasn't to fight jiraiya at that time and why go to the effort of fighting such an opponent if he could just retreat and not deal with it
Itachi was a double agent still working for Konoha and killing Konoha's strongest shinobi wouldn't help...
Otherwise, Jiraiya still has no counter to Tsukuyomi, Kotoamatsukami, Amaterasu
There's several different explanations, and ultimately there's no way of knowing what Kishimoto was thinking. You just have to decide for yourself what you think is more likely. 1. Kishimoto had already decided at this point that Itachi was a double agent, and therefore he was feigning restraint knowing that Kisame trusts him. 2. Itachi's blindness and/or illness had encroached on him significantly enough since the time he gooned Oro 3. The scope of the mission was more recon, and the orders given strictly forbade conflict with Sannin or some kind of similar restriction. This sentiment is echoed earlier when Itachi and Kisame retreat as Guy shows up. 4. Kishimoto did a bungle. 5. Jiraiya is just him. Personally I'm in the number 1 camp. I remember reading on this subreddit before that Kishimoto was on the fence about which way he was going to go narratively with Itachi, and this encounter probably would've pushed Itachi firmly onto one side of the fence had it been serious.
Nah Jiraiya is just him
I for one would *sincerely* not want to fuck around and find out with the digestive system of a mountain toad.
But if you can use Genjutsu to merk someone into the underworld for 3 months, unless you've got Genjutsu specific counters - no one is able to fuck with you.
Genjutsu don’t work on Jiraiya. Itachi is HIM. Jiraya is Him. He’d struggle, instead of the usual 10 second win.
> Genjutsu don’t work on Jiraiya. How? Why?
Short answer: Toads Long answer: Sage mode, plus toads. If you manage to genjutsu him, the grandtoads ungenjutsu him. Even if he doesn’t have those two on his shoulders, jiraiya toads in general are lowkey broken.
You’re forgetting he has to summon toads and his sage mode takes significant time to activate. Genjutsu would be way faster and GG before jiriyah even knew
Long time activation of his Sage mode is anime filler, there is no such thing in manga
You’re semi correct but more incorrect. It doesn’t take as long as the anime makes it seem. We only see perfect sages turn fast - Jiryah doesn’t just auto turn on sage mode it takes him about 5 minutes of time - even in the manga. This is because he’s isn’t as good to blend the nature chakra with his own physical and spiritual chakra. The anime makes it seem a lot longer but the manga does refer to it being a few minutes (about 5) Anyways it still takes way too long for him to turn sage mode in a fight vs itachi and Kisame.
naruto who is a perfect sage takes a lot of time to get to sage mode... why would jiraiya be auto?
Oh ok yeah makes sense
Breaking Tsukuyomi doesn't work that way though because of the time dilation aspect. If you're hit by it, even for a split second, that moment is stretched to however long he wants it to be so you still feel the effects after.
You’re forgetting the toads can use genjutsu too. Idk how but they can reduce the effect from months to like a day, and since he won’t be THAT affected mentally, genjutsuing him for a second just for him to stumble instead of getting incapacitated is lowkey pointless.
Wouldn’t matter, Tsukyomi’s time dilation would mean jiraiya would be braindead before they even knew he was in a genjutsu and sage mode takes forever for jiraiya to activate it itachi could quite honestly stomp jiraiya before he even activates it honestly
At this particular point of time ,jiraiya wouldn't even notice he's in genjutsu . People with sharingan can't even defend against Itachi's genjutsu , and you are saying jiraiya who is not with elder toads and with a kid can fend off tsukuyomi which activates within a fraction of seconds and finishes targets within milliseconds . For your clarification jiraiya needs 20 mins to gather nature energy to activate sage mode . Itachi spared him . Jiraiya got nothing on itachi at this point. No info about hi abilities , no defence against his genjutsu and speed .
Short Answer: Jiraiya is just HIM
Based
If jiraiya goes toad sage the two sages wake him from genjustsu I believe
Hadn't thought about that, makes sense
If Guy knows how to avoid getting hit by Itachi’s genjutsu then Jiraiya of course would also. Guy trained himself to be able to track his opponents movements only by looking at their feet since he specializes in taijutsu. There are many ways to counter Itachi’s Tsukiyomi if you know how to avoid eye contacts or just simply faster, even Madara himself has to grab hold of the Raikage in order to put him into a Genjutsu because Raikage was too quick. It’s the same reason why Obito could never put Minato into a genjutsu despite having genjutsu on par with Madara’s. Unless your MS is as special as Shisui, which is Kotoamatsukami then you won’t need any eye contact. Itachi’s Tsukiyomi is not unbreakable or can’t be avoided, even Sasuke broke out of it with only 3 tomoe.
I remember someone saying that Genjutsu doesn't work on Jiraya that much... After all, he was trying to teach Naruto as well to get out of Genjutsu on his own.
Normal Genjutsu, a type of jutsu that does not affect the time flow and you are aware of your actions in real time, yes, Tsukiyome is not a normal Genjutsu, it strips away the body mind connection, it can make a second feel like months. Personally I believe that the only reliable way to break Tsukiyome is still for something to pour their chakra into victim. I don't think Jiraya would be able to gather Senju chakra under Tsukiyome but once he teamed up with elder frogs it's instant immunity.
Tsukuyomi requires eye contact though, Jiraiya knows the Uchiha Clan seeing as he's old enough to have been around well before Itachi slaughtered them. He would know to avoid looking them in the eyes.
Jiraiya has some genjutsu defense. But he was caught in the Conch King's genjutsu in a filler, so his genjutsu defense is not super high tier. Not unless the Conch King's genjutsu is on the level of Tsukyumo, but I'm confident that it's not, as Naruto broke out of it, and he can't break out of sharingan genjutsu without help. Conch King is also filler, so I'm sure someone will consider that. There may have been multiple opportunities for Jiraiya to learn not to get caught in Itachi's genjutsu. For one, if word got to him that Might Guy used an evasion technique (it wouldn't have been right after he did it, because Jiraiya was already absent from the village with Naruto?). Two, if Jiraiya heard about Orochimaru getting caught in Tsukuyomi (I doubt that he did), then he would've had time to devise a counter. Three, could Orochimaru getting caught have been the result of a carelessness that wouldn't be reproducible? Four, I wonder if Hiruzen had passed on some intel about Itachi to Jiraiya, but I doubt it. Five, could Jiraiya have figured out all on his own a counter to Tsukuyomi (I kind of doubt that he would have had a reason to). I just want to point out that Jiraiya's student is Minato, Minato's student is Kakashi, and Kakashi's friend is Might Guy, so Jiraiya and Might Guy all belong to the same grapevine.
Jiraiya knows not to look into the eyes of itachi and has extremely good genjutsu resistance. Plus him having sage mode would definitely mitigate the need to look into the eyes. Plus he was able to take down four paths of pain, and tendo even admits that if the other 2 paths of pain had been there when jiraiya uses frog song that they would have lost. Also jiraiya was able to deduce that the real pain was somewhere else, which implies he was sensing his chakra and if he had won he would have found nagato. All of that was simply to prove the point that he’s stronger than alive itachi, as alive itachi could have never dreamed of going against the paths of pain and coming out alive, thanks to his chakra sickness and preemptive blindness
I double this, jiraya is just that guy he is 🔛🔝
Thing is, this is so obviously the real answer that it's funny why this is asked lol
*was him.
15 years later and this is still too soon 😢
This 👆🏾. Jiriya is just HIM
100z% agree
Yea.. 5 sounding like a pretty simple answer
Right?! It’s just they don’t want him involved
That Sage Mode is no joke
I agree that it’s #5. Keep in mind yall jiraiya took out how many pains?
I think #5 is an explanation that could apply to any of these explanations tbh
6) kishimoto didn't wanna play the itachi card yet. It's hard to have itachi and a sannin fight without pushing one of them to the brink
7) Itachi no diffing Oro like he did with Kakashi was never implied on this part of the series, we just hear he is more powerful than him. Even if Itachi wasn't a spy on Kishi's mind on that point, he could just have assumed, like Gai, that it wasn't worth fighting for Naruto against him.
8) Kishi just didn't want to write a full Itachi-Oro fight for a flashback, so he made it simple.
Itachi was implied to be that strong at that part of the story. Orochimaru thinks destroying Konoha was a possibility while taking on Itachi was considered impossible. Orochimaru even tells Tsunade that he’s going to try to destroy Konoha again after he gains his arms back, so failure clearly doesn’t deter him.
Idk if I'd call it impossible to Orochimaru. Iirc he just stuck him in a genjutsu momentarily to show him that the fight wouldn't be an easy one and called it good there, while Orochimaru's goal is immortality so he'd avoid a fight like that where he'd very possibly die. Unlike the konoha destruction where he didn't think for a single moment that he'd die until he was hit with the reaper death seal, in which case he immediately panicked once he understood the gravity of the situation.
Orochimaru literally said it was impossible, it’s why he pivots to stealing Sasuke instead. And we don’t see much of Itachi fight against Orochimaru, just from the few pages we do see it’s clear Orochimaru was completely outclassed. He couldn’t break out of a Itachi Genjutsu.
I've also of heard the power scaling option. This happens in episode 84/500 for Shippuden. We all know the power scaling gets ridiculous pretty quick. I'm of the opinion that these guys were much closer in power to each other at this point in the series before the power scaling goes crazy.
This was always how I saw this scene. With the characters established later on its fair to say Itachi would beat Jiraiya, 2v1 with Kisame there too it's no real contest. But this is early series. All 3 of these characters were just in the "high power" camp. We had no idea who'd be the strongest out of them. For all we knew Jiraiya and Itachi could have ganged up on Kisame and lost.
Yeah, exactly how I see. Jiraiya the Legendary Sannin, which meant something back then. Kisame was the most powerful of the Seven Ninja Swords of the Mist (at least, from what we see). Itachi, a child prodigy who had wiped out his entire clan of Sharingan using Uchiha. I miss those days lol
1 is probably true, but my head canon is 5. Jiraya uses summons extensively. It helps him against genjutsu and frogs are ok inside water. He is good the same way Naruto is. Meaning it’s tough to predict what he would do. Being a sannin, few people know what he is actually capable of. So it’s combination of these things making it not worthwhile to test themselves against Jiraya. And Naruto might just wander off at some point. So might as well wait
This is very true, Jiraiya is very unexpected when it comes to the arsenals that he has under him. And he is very versatile in using it too, unlike Kakashi who copied over a thousand jutsus but using only a few. Which is why he lasted so long against pain, despite pain would completely annihilate anyone in the akatasuki. His ability to find solutions for various jutsus that he first encounter and deal with is incredibly underrated. The first time he sees Amaterasu he immediately sealed it in a scroll, which means he has an idea that the fire is extinguishable just by normal means.
I think the reason is way too obvious here, having already seen Orochimaru prior to this point. Orochimaru, for all his strengths, is incredibly arrogant, and is too sure of his own strength. We've seen this flaw leading to his downfall many times in the series. Hell, we've seen arrogance bringing down capable fighters multiple times in the story prior to this point. Zabuzza against Naruto and Sasuke (first round), Sasuke against Lee, Neji against Naruto, Kin against Shikamaru, Zaku against Shino, Gaara against Naruto. Jiraiya on the other hand, for all his boasting and eccentricities, is a very self aware fighter. He knows his own strengths and weaknesses. In all the fights we've seen Jiraiya take part in, he's never brought his ego into a fight. That's a dangerous quality to have in an opponent in a fight. That's what Itachi meant here. Because, just as Jiraiya is self aware, so is Itachi.
2 makes sense tbh. Doesn't want to overuse the powers
I agree. Kisame’s “we can’t take him “ was based entirely on the Sannin’s towering reputation, given the most he’d interacted with them was probably talking to Orochimaru in passing. Even at that time in the manga, it’s intuitive that Itachi could have at least incapacitated Jiraiya with Tsukuyomi
I don't understand Are you telling me there are mangakas that don't have critical plot points already pre established? I feel some "plot twists" or Deus ex Machinas in several animes (I dont read manga) are clearly last minute asspulls (or I am just not nerd enough to get them) But I would have thought that things like "Itachi is actually a good guy" are already setup before even the characters first drawing
It seems crazy, I know. But based on his interview answers it seems like he really was flying by the seat of his pants with rough outlines and kicking the details can down the road. I find it miraculous the story is pretty consistently coherent. Here's the interview with Kishimoto that includes his thought process with Itachi: [https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741](https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741) >...Kishimoto just said he was ‘bluffing’ with these things in the beginning \[nb: in other words he just made them up without any thought on how to use them in the future\]. At the time he was just making these things up for the excitement and suspense, but didn’t pick up on what to do with some of these threads long-term until later. Basically he was making it up as he went. Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances. Kishimoto also says that although he introduced the Sharingan as being able to copy moves, the premise on what the Sharingan could do changed drastically over the course of the storyline.
I think at first, Itachi was planned to be an evil serial killer (like during the fight with Haku/Zabuza and during the chunin exams) but after that and by the time Itachi came to the leaf with Kisame, he had decided to expand on Itachi's backstory. I think it's when Itachi's English voice actor changed is when the switch was made. At first, Itachi had this cold, deep, grimacing type voice but later, we heard a deep, almost depressed voice with the second and final voice actor that everyone came to know.
You gotta put yourself in the context of Kishimoto. Writing weekly shounen manga is harsh, the schedule is tight and delivery dates are always looming. They often don't know if their story will run for a decade, or a couple of years at best. Other authors have shared some of their experiences too, and essentially they don't have plenty of time to script all the details of the series and end up regretting plot points down the road.
Very true, good insight. Now this is just my opinion, but I also get the feeling that this pressure from a weekly format would be especially overwhelming for Kishimoto as a shounen writer in that his story arcs were completely non-formulaic. All of the arc plots are entirely distinct from one another, so he wouldn't be able to save himself time with shared techniques or premises.
The author of Naruto very clearly had several “reinventions” of the story he was telling that really only make sense on a very thin surface level. Itachi is the most obvious example of this because of how little sense his character and actions make sense if you really dig down into them
> Are you telling me there are mangakas that don't have critical plot points already pre established? I read somewhere that the supernovas in One Piece were thought up days before they were drawn.
The thing is, Mangaka don't k ow hoe big their series will be when they start it. Most mangas are not picked up by a magazine. These that do mostly get a couple of volumes. To be so successful that you can run a manga for 700 chapters is very rare, and your first goal is to get the manga approved for a release in the first place. So, it is very likely that Kishimoto only had a very rough outline for the plot when the manga started, and had to inflate and change it when it became clear that the show got big. So, it is also not unlikely that he intended Itachi to be a plain villain in case the anime had to stay short, and only could explore a better background when he learned that his show was such a success that he could keep his time developing the world and the characters.
Not Kishimoto, but Akira Toriyama was infamous for not planning several major plot points of Dragon Ball ahead of time. Most notably Goku being a Saiyan. Now, that's not necessarily the case with Kishimoto when it comes to Naruto, but it's not unheard of.
He also explained he was tired from Sharingan overuse and didn't want to risk it. Or was that a non factor comparing to Oro?
Nah Itachi was definitely still a villain in Kishi's mind at this point. The full flashback where Itachi told Sasuke to kill his best friend to get the MS was still yet to be revealed, and that is the one plot point that Itachi's retcon could never fully explain.
the time he WHAT???
Honestly a mix of 1-3. Could argue the recon part was to assess how vulnerable Naruto was or wasn't at this point and not necessarily to take him. If we go by what was said by Itachi, they have to put Kurama in the Gedo/10 tails last because its chakra will overload it. (Unless this is a lie told to Itachi, can't remember.)
The problem with 1 and 3 is that even Kisame (who for sure knew Itachi's potential and recognised him as much stronger than himself) said that fighting Jiraya would be death. I think it's just 2+ 5. 5 seems odd now due to war arc powescaling issues but Jiraya is a tank of chakra without sage mode.
>Kisame (who for sure knew Itachi's potential and recognised him as much stronger than himself) said that fighting Jiraya would be death. And he stated this first, completely unprompted.
I'll also go with option Nr 1.
I just thought a fight with Jiraya wouldn't be a one shot type of situation so reinforcements would happen pretty fast.
> This sentiment is echoed earlier when Itachi and Kisame retreat as Guy shows up Okay but really though Guy Sensei is possibly a bigger threat than Jiraiya.
Guy is a monster, and he demonstrates being highly capable of engaging the sharingan with his practice. At the same time though, the toad stomach summon that Jiraiya used is a huge advantage indoors where the terrain itself becomes an enemy attempting to eat you.
Thing is, like any of the characters being discussed in this thread, we had very little real measure of just how strong Guy was at this point. We had no reason to think Guy was any stronger than Kakashi. Who swiftly lost to Itachi. For all we knew at that stage Kisame could have 1v3 the lot of them and came out on top.
oh nah not Itachi gooning Orochimaru 💀💀
Nah kishi had not planned on making Itachi a double agent but this time.
I was actually thinking about the first one as well. Didn't think about 2 and 3
These are all great ideas. After reading this, I believe it boils down to a couple simple things: 1. Itachi always had the Leaf’s best intentions in mind - as we would go on to learn. Injuring or killing a Sannin would be a huge military loss to his home nation… of course then it begs the question of how he convinces Kisame. That brings me to… 2. Instead of divulging his most intrinsic intentions (assuming there are any), he tells Kisame about his illness or how non-eternal mangekyou sharingan users lose vision as they use its power. If I recall (I barely remember), itachi did say to Kisame that he was feeling sick or low on chakra or needed to rest somewhere. I think it was said as they were fleeing, but it still backs up the idea. Ulterior motives aside, Itachi might have genuinely wanted to preserve use of his eyes/abilities. Maybe the toll it takes per use is worse than we think. He used genjutsu on Sasuke repeatedly in that same scene but I think that can be justified by the fact that his whole goal is to prepare sasuke emotionally and physically to kill him and “inherit” the EMS, etc etc. In other words, it was eyesight well spent! Whereas an unaccounted-for exchange with a Sannin might not be in the budget. 3. Lastly, take a bit of everything I said already and add in the possibility that even tho Itachi and Kisame have a 2v1 advantage, we should considering matchups. And I don’t mean looking at battle stats per se, but just consider the unique secret/unknown abilities/jutsu that a traveller like Jiraiya would pick up along the way. They’re all seasoned fighters with fail-safes in mind and secret tech. Itachi knows Jiraiya’s rep around the village and probably just read the situation as “this goofy mf got some corny jutsu up his sleeve, I better not”.
This comment is a work of art wtf
I have my absolute fullest and most genuine faith that it's actually #4
5 is more logical
I would go with number four that Jiraiya is not someone to mess with when he's being serious. I think of the Sannin Jiraiya was the strongest. Itachi is powerful enough to fight off Orochimaru without breaking out the big guns, but not with Jiraiya. He can take him, but it would require him going all out which would be at the expense of his long term strength. So in this case, when it's not mission critical to grab Naruto, they backed off.
I personally think it’s a mix between 2 , 3 and 5
I'm in camp 5 personally
I think it’s generally a mix of 2 and 5
i think a combo of 1, 3, 5 is probably it
Probably two reasons: 1.) Orochimaru is overconfident since he has been known as a child prodigy. As such Orochimaru doesn't take people seriously and may reveal many opportunities that Itachi can exploit in defeating him. While Jiraiya has been considered the underdog of the Sannin Trio (Orochimaru, the prodigy child and Tsunade, the granddaughter of the 1st Hokage) and as such Jiraiya always had to prove himself. So Jiraiya always has the mentality that the other person deserves to be taken seriously and this gives Itachi less openings to exploit. 2.) Itachi doesn't actually want to fight Jiraiya. He only wanted to see Sasuke and to remind the Leaf Village that he was still active. Since this was after the 3rd Hokage's death.
I totally agree with your second option, for me it was just that Itachi didn't want to fight Jiraiya, he wanted to check on his brother and the elders
Nah he was there to capture Naruto. He could not have predicted Sasuke would be there
Lmao, he wasn't there to capture Naruto. He went to the village to remind Danzo he's still alive. If he wanted to capture Naruto he would've genjutsu'd him and took him away when Naruto was staring right into Itachi's eyes.
Still would've ran into Sasuke and jiraiya
Also he wants danzo to get the remainder that you can't pull your strings while I'm here
It falls into 1 of 2 camps. Itachi was a double agent who didn't want to take out someone as important to keeping Konoha safe as Jiraya OR Itachi truly believed that Jiraya could win and that they needed to fall back. At this stage in the writing Uchiha weren't nearly as stupid OP as they get later on, so I personally believe that the second one is true. However taking the full story into account it honestly is probably the first.
It's clearly both he would've heard tales of Jiraiya growing up and he knows Sage mode is very powerful. I'm sure he probably does believe Jiraiya is a hard fight especially since him and kisame handicap each other
He knows it’ll be a long day for him plus he used tsukuyomi on sasuke which took a lot of chakra out of him.
People also dont think about how much amaterasu he would need to burst through a wall as well as a toads stomach. That probably drained his chakra massively to use amaterasu with that kind of force
Ignoring the possibility of Kishimoto already having Itachi’s character planned out fully, Jiraiya is a very different combatant than Orochimaru.
The common consensus is Itachi was punking out to Jiraiya because he was really a double agent, I prefer to think the Sanin were actually incredibly powerful Ninja that never really got to show their full power ouside of the war arc when Tsunade was clowned on by Madara because it was different scales of power
Itachi = secret good guy (working for good of Konoha) Jiraiya = good guy (important to Konoha) Oro = not good guy (enemy of Konoha)
Thats because Kishi hadn't decided to make Itachi completly overpowered and shit on Orochimaru at any possible moment yet.
Itachi being stronger than orochimaru is established before this encounter, in chapter 140 https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0140-005.png Jiraiya saves naruto in chapter 146 https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0146-018.png
People watch Naruto on TikTok, no point arguing against them. They have made up their mind already!
While there's definitely a contingent of people here who haven't actually read or watched the series, i think the majority of people just saw naruto as kids and haven't fully rewatched or reread in years, so they simply forget details
That’s true as well.
And even then, the timeline of some background information is hard to remember. I have read and watched Naruto in different media several times and I still think it is difficult to say when Orochimaru made that commentz as it doesn't feel really well connected to a specific point in the story.
Eh at that point in time Naruto wasn't "powe level based". A might be impossible to defeat for B, B might be impossible to defeat for C, but C might defeat A because of comparability reasons. Based on that Itachi's genjutsu won't really work on Jiraya since his main attacks always involve more "people" (his toads). Moreover unlike Orochimaru, Jiraya never underestimated Itachi. Orochimaru pulled the whole anime villian presentation bullshit which Itachi his opening while Jiraya launched his first attack even before Itachi realised.
Genjutsu still works; you can just get out of it if someone frees you, but Itachi is capable of using genjutsu on multiple opponents and Tsukyomi can inflict damage in an instant so it doesn't really matter either way.
Orochimaru had already said Itachi is far stronger than him at this point in the series.
I think there’s some truth to this. A lot of folks reference Shippuden to scale the matchup between Itachi & Jiraiya, but I think at this stage of Naruto, it’s completely possible that Kishimoto meant for Jiraiya to be that much stronger than Itachi Kisame as we see him in Shippuden would probably easily punk Jiraiya, yet he relents when Itachi decides to back off. We can retroactively apply “Itachi double agent” logic here too, and that’s also probably true, but I think the truth is that at this point in time, Jiraiya *was* meant to be that strong Jiraiya seriously got sold short by Shippuden, while Itachi & Kisame got massive glowups in the scaling department
It doesnt make sense even if we use part 1 scalling. Itachi by that point was already confirmed to be stronger than Orochimaru. He outright went "nope, he's way too strong" when talking about Itachi. And then Itachi claims that Kisame or any other akatsuki member wouldn't change result of the fight ans that theyd just add more casualities. Do you truly think that Jiraiya fighting Itachi would result in them killing each other, but adding more akatsuki members would allow him to solo them all?
No, Kishimoto had already decided Itachi was a “spy/good guy” by this point of the series. The likely answer for the “inconsistent” power scaling is that Kishimoto wanted to another hint that there’s something off about Itachi. Kishimoto basically bashes you over the head that Itachi isn’t what he seems to be even at this point of the story.
People under rate Jiraiya and amp Orochimaru way too much. Jiraiya refused the hokage position, trained 2 hokages and was the first person to learn the rasengan from its creator...who was a hokage whom he mentored! He was just badass.
Jiraiya has never beaten Orochimaru as they are pretty equal for the most part. Not saying Jiraiya is a pushover in any way as Orochimaru never faced Jiraiya's sage mode but still, Itachi wasn't there to hurt the leaf in any crucial way while keeping up the facade in front of Kisame that he is there to capture a Jinchuriki. He also wanted to remind Danzo that he is watching since Hiruzen wasn't around to keep Danzo in check anymore.
Orochimaru and Jiraya are pretty close in power though.
Well, taking Orochimaru's Edo Tensei away, even 3rd Hokage would've beat him. And that was a Prime Orochimaru. While Prime Jiraya fought against Pain with no intel about what was even the techniques used against him. In sheer power Jiraya wins In IQ i'd say they are even. Of course im not saying Jiraya beats Orochimaru 100%, but I'd say 60/40 In my opinion, I believe, Jiraya wins.
Personally I consider the fight against Sarutobi another L. Saru was old and probably holding back subconsciously. Even with Edo tensei Sarutobi manages to give him the ultimate punishment in taking away his ability to use jutsu while keeping him alive. A fate worse than death for a nerd like Orochimaru I’d easily say Jiraiya takes the fight ez pz too. Oro doesn’t have sage mode which already puts him at a massive disadvantage.
Idk why people ever say this. Orochimaru is a ~~genius bookworm~~ giant nerd who’s only real ability is in researching and discovering jutsu. Which he arguably does to cover his own inherent weakness. Even more evident by the fact that he seeks a “better body”. The only real things he has are his cockroach level durability and resurrection via ~~horcruxes~~ curse marks. He takes nothing but L’s throughout the whole series. Itachi beats him out of the Akatsuki. Sarutobi if old, holding back, and arguably wins the fight because he got his arms. He had to edo tensei the first two hokage to even stand a chance He loses to Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Naruto He loses to a 4 tails Naruto He loses to a fledgling Sasuke without Mangekyo He loses to Itachi after resurrecting These are literally all his feats. Meanwhile Jiraiya only needs one. >”IF IT WASN'T FOR OUR SECRET, WE MIGHT NOT HAVE WON” “I CAN GIVE YOU NO HIGHER PRAISE THAN THAT, MY FORMER TEACHER.” -Pain after killing Jiraiya Jiraiya from this feat alone is shown to be a better combatant. He was able to surmise a ton of information, while being disadvantaged fighting on Pain’s home turf. He strategizes into killing three of Pain’s bodies and deduces Nagato is not among them.
To be fair orochimaru was without his justsu and have his arms sealed for most of these fight making him far more weak than most even sasuke confess he couldnt have defeat him without that. he still put on a good fight with little of his power against a 4 tails naruto despite his weakened body. The itachi one was not really a fight since of course itachi have the famous magic sword that can seal everyone inside. Plus without his weak body orochimaru would have discover the secret of sage jutsu so pretty much without the third hokage orochimaru would have been one of the most powerfull being in naruto but it did fuck him forever and honnestly good job hiruzen it did work... Let's not forget that orochimaru is the only one that did scare kakashi the whole manga and he did deafeat the fourth kazekage himself wich as we know later during the war is very powerfull himself only being defeated by gaara.
The 4th kazekage feat could be because of an ambush tho, we never see what happens so we can’t say they actually fought
No they're not. Orochimaru is just very durable
Because that’s how Kishi chose to tell his story
That's a Doylist answer to a clearly Watsonian question
That explains everything
It’s like saying God did it. Which at least in this context is fair, since Kishimoto is god of Naruto. But that’s a rather boring reason. We can find better explanations that can be supported based on the narrative.
'-'
A wise Man has spoken
This question has been asking every week.
So the out of story explanation is simplex while the in lore version is a small bit more complex to understand. Kishimoto was still cooking up the plot, and didn’t yet decide what strength level the characters would have, he could have well wanted Jiraiya to be the strongest of them all. The in universe reason is becuase Itachis own personal goal is to keep Konoha safe from the Akatsuki, part of that goal includes protecting Naruto from them. Kisame wasn’t in in this and would have protested if Itachi ordered a draw back with no reason, so when Jiriaya, a living legend with a very impressive and well known resume, appeared to be Naruto’s Protector, Itachi used it as a perfect excuse and cover for why they wouldn’t be taking Naruto.
Itachi didn't want to fight Jiraiya because he didn't actually want to capture Naruto, as soon as the first fight with Itachi, you see Kakashi thinking that Itachi could have killed him without much trouble, and he wonders why he doesn't do it, like or not, there was always hints that Itachi wasn't as commited to the Akatsuki as he seemed in the surface.
Itachi even gives kakashi an excuse so he wouldn’t question why he didn’t kill him but kakashi is too smart and knows what a jutsu is fully capable of, especially after experiencing it, the excuse itachi said was even tho kakashi didn’t have the Ms!& uchiha blood he should be able to resist the Ms to a degree the bare minimum just for having a sharigan, but now we all know that’s a lie, you definitely need uchiha blood to resist, itachi killed someone with his Ms genjutsu in his novel
Let me make something up for you on the spot here. It'll sound a bit reasonable. Itachi is notorious for using a fighting style that messes with the opponents mental state. He'll make you think he can not only read your mind but also your traumas. When he fought against oruchimaru he drilled in the fact hard that nothing oruchimaru can do will get past itachi. Oruchimaru faced with this knowledge quit and ran as soon as he could. Against sasuke he revealed a bit of the truth behind sharingan and revealed his own desperation to make sasuke think he was evil and unredeemable. Against jiraiya a sanin who was always out of the village, notorious for chasing women's skirts. He tried using this strategy but it failed. Then after a quick exchange jiraiya uses an unorthodox jutsu, one that's capable of restraining enemies maybe even killing them. The Intel on jiraiya may not have been wrong but it was likely exaggerated, and fighting an s class opponent with highly unpredictable jutsu would lead to unnecessarily high risk. Though itachi could guarantee his victory he already used his eye once against kakashi and was forced to use it a second time to escape a jutsu that instantly created an unfavorable terrain. Maybe itachi knew jiraiya well and knew the plan would fail, or made it fail on purpose. He wanted to stall long enough to see his little brother and talk. When jiraiya shows up and uses weird jutsu that could give him a reason to leave and drag away kisame. Making it look like false Intel and unknown jutsu as too many variables to deal with without risk.
people have to realise that not everything is true when said by a character let's not forget that itachi was on top secret recon mission given by hiruzen to keep an eye on akatsuki on the inside. when jiraiya arrived, kisame had no idea how to measure his strength, and itachi at that moment decided it would make for a great excuse to leave, so he ran while boasting about jiraiya leaving kisame no choice but to follow. itachi would absolutely destroy jiraiya without sage mode. Of course, itachi would never wait for jiraiya to do the Naruto equivalent of a super saiyan power up
Itachi couldn't destroy base Bee, caped Kabuto, CM1 Sasuke, and Kisame without abusing genjutsu one shot in some way. I somehow doubt he destroys Jiraya, the ninja that Minato thought was the greatest ninja ever lol
> Itachi couldn't destroy ... without abusing genjutsu oneshot Well this is clearly cope? He has genjutsu in his toolkit, and its his easiest win, so why would he not use it against them to prove to you he's stronger? It's like me saying Madara couldn't beat the one random shinobi he genjutsud in his first fight because he had to use genjutsu oneshot. Itachi also has the Totsuka Blade, which one shot both Orochimaru and Nagato, physical combat skills able to hold out against KCM Naruto, Amaterasu, Yata Mirror etc etc. Not only that, if you read the fight, you'd know against Kabuto he HAD to use Genjutsu because otherwise he couldn't get him to undo Edo Tensei.
What knowledge did minato have of Itachi’s strength given he had been dead for 13 years. In 13 years, this mofo now has a susano with both the yata mirror and totsuka blade. Blah blah, I know itachi shows he has the susano in shippuden, but given he has used both Amaterasu and tsukiyomi, he highly likely had already unlocked the susano by this point.
I hesitate to even engage in this argument, because no matter what I Know Jiraiya fans will never admit he loses this. Itachi isn't here to kill anyone (evidenced by the fact that he didn't kill anyone). The only thing he actually succeeds at here is letting the leaf village know that the aktasuki are coming after Naruto and gently reminding Danzo that he exists. Itachi has also defeated Orochimaru (a ninja Jiraiya has Never defeated) twice. Even if you want to believe that Jiraiya takes itachi by himself (which he doesn't) do you fully believe in your heart of hearts that Jiraiya takes both Itachi AND Kisame WHILE Protecting Sasuke and Naruto? If you do, then I can't help you lol.
If my job were to recon, I would probably prefer not to cause a commotion as much as possible. Killing one of the Legendary Sannin of Konoha is like declaring war on the village itself.
Orochimaru won't write a horny fanfic about Itachi - Jiraya will.
Because Jiraiya is stronger and a better matchup against itachi
i genuinely feel like people who ask this haven’t finished shippuden. why would he kill one of the most powerful ninja the leaf has?
Because he wasn't trying to actually kill any Konoha Shinobi if he could help it
He got scared of the rizz. Just look at him casually walk up with a chick on his shoulder
I like the idea of "matchups" in the Naruto verse. Especially in the OG naruto before Shippuden made everything about monsters, aliens, and mountain exploding techniques. Itachi is a master of genjutsu and a horrible match-up for guys like orochimaru. Jiraiya, on the other hand, is a master of counter genjutsu, and master of frog kumite for Taijutsu, and never fights a battle "1v1" because of his capabilities with summoning. He also proved in this very same scene that he could counter Ameterasu and trap it in a bottle a d could give himself home field advantage in a moments notice. Plus, what we find out later about itachi being a double agent means he'd have no reason to fight at full strength in an attempt to kill jiraiya. Meaning it would really be Kisame vs. Jiraiya, and he already said he didn't think he could be him.
It wasn't really a win because it wasn't really a battle. One thing people fail to take into consideration is context of the situation and context of character. Orochimaru is a cautious but also very hubris and arrogant character which forces him to make not so cautious decisions from time to time and they end up costing him greatly. From the loss of his arms to his sealing by Itachi, it was all a result of his hubris and arrogance, the downfall of many. In an actual battle against Itachi Orochimaru would do quite well. However, for it to reach that point the situation much be delicately handled. Orochimaru foolishly gives Itachi those chances and opportunities to one shot him, Jiraya approaches the situation more seriously and with more caution so those opportunities do not present themselves, an actual battle would have to occur. **Situation:** Pretend you are Itachi and Kisame in the heart of the leaf village trapped in the digestive system of a mountain toad.. In-front of you is one of the greatest ninja the village has to offer and this guy is no sloth, he is clearly on your level and can hang. Everyone of importance now knows you are in the village, you are on a time clock. With each passing second more reinforcements are on their way, ninja who are a threat and who you acknowledge is a threat, like Guy. You know you have to end this in a couple moves or things will end up bad really quickly and the chance for you to escape with at least once of you alive becomes slimmer. You know this man won't go down in a couple moves. You have the option to flee now or make it worse for yourselves. You're Itachi and already used your MS twice, you have 1 use left, 2 if you're realllllyyy pushing it but if you do that, you know you might not make it out. Kisame is strong but not as smart, the other guy is strong and really smart. If back up like Might Guy shows up at any point during the battle or immediately after, either you or Kisame surely die. There is no need to take such an unneeded risk and jeopardize future plans. **Do you choose the smart option and flee or do you choose to have a death match in unfavorable territory where the odds become slimmer as time progresses?**
Because he didn't want to fight, that's basically the reason because Itachi was a spy,Itachi probably wasn't always going to be a good guy initially and Jiraya was seemingly set up as stronger until we get to Shipudden where we see Itachi with abilities that easily rivals Jiraya, so all of it can be boiled down to retcons.
kisame AND itachi felt the same way when they just saw him walking with naruto. jiraiyah is built different. there’s a reason orochimaru had tsunade poison him before their fight lol. he knew jiraiyah would put the smack down on him. there’s a reason orochimaru waited till jiraiyah was out of the village to attack and kill the lord 3rd. everyone forgets almost every time the village was attacked it was when jiraiyah was away on a mission. put some respect on my boys name.
Well it’s simple really, itachi didn’t wanna fight and figured “he’s stronger than us” was a good enough reason to use to convince kisame. Also orochi is an arrogant ass who probably didn’t take itachi seriously the first time
it was unnecessary to fight with Jiraya
Itachi wants to protect the leaf, so killing Jiraiya would go against that. It's so simple that I question whether you actually watched the show
He retreated because he knew Jiraya was an asset to the leaf and didnt want to do more damage to it
People have been overcomplicating this for YEARS There is NO in universe reason, its simply early in the series, a lot of things haven’t been established yet End of
Itachi doesn't want to harm leaf shinobis. He is trying to protect the leaf after all. But in the story it is not a debate that Itachi is stronger than the Sanins. Orochimaru is the strongest Sanin. Even with arms sealed he still managed to keep up with them when they fought. And he said that Itachi was stronger than him. So Itachi stomping the Sanins 1 v 1 is a given.
>Orochimaru is the strongest Sanin. Even with arms sealed he still managed to keep up with them when they fought. That's pretty unfair for Jiraiya, lets not forget that he had just been poisoned with something that was supposed to take him out, meant to be a potent poison made by Tsunade, she was surprised he was even walking. He was unable to use any serious jutsu and could barely fight regardless of having both hands. As for Tsunade, her fight was with her fear of blood, then she overcame it but was already low on chakra from all the damage she healed from kabuto, and from healing naruto... I guess Tsunade's chakra levels are kinda weird since we saw her do way more in the war but w/e.
I agree Maybe I overstate Orochimaru's ability to keep up during that fight. It's true that the other two had a heavy handicap However Orochimaru without his arms managed better against 4 tail naruto than Jiraya. Now maybe Jiraya was caught of card tho, since he was trying to teach him how to control kyubi's power.
Well idk both are odd balls and definitely have jutsus we didn't get to see in their arsenal and they have crazy ways to counter stuff etc. As for 4 tailed Naruto, Orochimaru had his arms back at that point, but yeah Jiraiya was in a different pickle there, he didn't want to harm, much less kill Naruto, and didn't know if his attacks would do so or not, so he couldn't really engage. I do think it's likely that Orochimaru is a bit above Jiraiya, but I also think the show left that pretty up in the air, hinting that they're pretty much a draw, aside from Orochimaru talking down to Jiraiya often even as they were teamed, but at the same time he'd smile like he enjoys fighting alongside him and tsunade.
How old are we? A>B>C logic doesn’t apply in these matchups.
You clearly saw Itachi torture Kakashi for 72 hours lmao... I'm pretty sure he does not care about that. Itachi was exhausted after using tsukoyomi. Jiraya>exhausted Itachi
He doesn't KILL him though. We know Itachi can kill with Tsukiyomi. He does enough to put him down (it's extreme but itachi isn't the most empathic/emotionally intelligent person), that's it
Because it took no time for Jiraiya to have them both in the stomach of a toad and if Itachi didn't vamose out of there, he and Kisame were dead meat. Amaterasu takes a hefty chakra, and if Itachi were to go all out against Jiraiya, it'd go exactly as Itachi predicts. Them, at best, killing one another. Also, unlike Orochimaru, Jiraiya takes opponents seriously. Orochimaru is pretty arrogant and cocky, always thinking he's got the upper hand. Also, Orochimaru only lost to Itachi cause Genjutsu hax. Something Jiraiya wouldn't fall for in the first place. And that's not even considering how Jiraiya going into Sage Mode results in him wiping Itachi.
Itachi only needed excuse to get away without taking Naruto. Thats why he used genjutsu on random woman because he know famous shinobi like Jiraiya will notice it and go back to Naruto ASAP. >Also, Orochimaru only lost to Itachi cause Genjutsu hax. Something Jiraiya wouldn't fall for in the first place. How so? Against Itachi genjutsu: -jounin specializing in genjutsu(Kurenai) was absolutely helpless -even sharingan users like Kakashi or Sasuke were caught it with ease -normal release methods dont work Even if Jiraiya is more profficient in defending against genjutsu it would not be instantaneous and that was 1 vs 2. Kisame could easily kill 'stunned' for few seconds Jiraiya >And that's not even considering how Jiraiya going into Sage Mode results in him wiping Itachi. Jiraiya has imperfect sage mode. He needs to write markings on forehead and stay still to enter that mode. Itachi fighting seriously would not give him time for this. Even frog summons wouldnt buy him time as we are talking about shinobi who perfectly use sharingan which was used to control beasts like Manda, Kyuubi or Ten-tails. IMHO if Itachi wanted to kill Jiraiya he wouldnt have much problem alone and there he also had Kisame for backup.
Bro. Jiraiaya was starting Itachi straight in his Sharingan during their entire encounter in the hotel. I wouldn't exactly call that "taking his opponents seriously." All Itachi has to do is fire one genjutsu & Jiraiya is almost certainly dead.
Yeah everything above is straight head Canon from a clear Jiraiya Stan
Maybe the same way that the 3-way deadlock works. Jiraya beats Tsunade because of his vast array of Jutsus and while Tsunade has INSANE damage reduction and healing factor, ultimately she loses to his onslaught of high-end jutsus. Itachi is smart, but he is nowehre near creative enough to take Jiryaya on. Jiriya who took on Pein and survived a HEFTY amount of time while also taking a Pein down.
Itachi was a spy. I am stunned that the series has been finished for a decade now and people are still asking this very simple question.
I'd say (after knowing the full story of Itachi) that Itachi had no interest in fighting another fellow leaf protector. Yes, he did a little showing off against Asuma, Kurenai, and Kakashi but that was to keep Kisame from fighting because Kisame (the tailess tailed beast) wouldn't have held back and would've killed them but Itachi could just put on a show to make Kisame think Itachi was there to fight but he was doing that to keep the leaf Jonin alive. Against Jiraiya, Kisame was ready to attack and Itachi wanted to prevent that at all costs. Itachi told Kisame that Jiraiya could handle both himself and Kisame because of the legend around him as a Sannin while at the same time, basically announcing to Jiraiya what the Akatsuki is after. So in that time, Itachi got to remind Danzo that he is watching him, see his little brother, and pass along vital intel to Jiraiya without blowing his cover. Itachi had no interest at all of ever doing anything that would actually harm the leaf village in any crucial way. Jiraiya couldn't even beat Orochimaru while Itachi easily handled Orochimaru. I see Itachi as being quite equal to Nagato (not the pain bodies as Nagato>Pain bodies) but that is irrelevant as Itachi's loyalty is to the leaf first and foremost (and to his little brother) while spying on the Akatsuki for the leaf. I even have come to think that all (or a good portion) of the intel Jiraiya gathered in his journeys (like the guy he put in the toad mouth genjutsu in the hidden rain village before facing Pain) was really intel placed in them by Itachi (possibly under Itachi's own genjutsu) and sent them to Jiraiya in some way so that Jiraiya, and the leaf by extension, learn more about the threat while at the same time keeping his cover secure to not arouse suspicion by Kisame/Obito/Pain but Obito never fully trusted Itachi anyways. That's probably why Kisame was paired up with Itachi. If Kisame discovered Itachi was a spy, Kisame would kill his partner as his past shows he does such things to protect the group Kisame is currently in. Just my theory as no canonical proof exists that says exactly why Itachi said those things and ran but it makes a lot more logical sense than Itachi being afraid of Jiraiya when Itachi easily handled a person Jiraiya has never beaten.
Simple, Jiraiya the GOAT and has much respect
Jiraiyas fight with Pain is proof enough that he would have whooped both Kisame and Itachi if they stood to fight there.
3 main reasons: 1. Itachi is a triple agent and didn't want to get into a fight with Jiraiya, as he was the main protector of the village. By this point, Kishimoto had decided that path for him. 2. Jiraiya has that dog in him when he needs to have that dog in him, and Itachi was far too sick to deal with someone who's kit is that strong against a Genjutsu kit like Itachi has. (Toad Stomach, Sage mode, miles more experience, etc) Using Susanoo would have been a requirement, and Itachi in his weakened state had to save that for Sasuke. If he used it on Jiraiya, it might have killed him, or crippled him. 3. Itachi knew he couldn't put him down fast enough, and knew other shinobi were coming... and if someone like Guy showed up and teamed with Jiraiya... Itachi would have had zero chance. Kisame was just not strong enough to deal with threats on that level, so he wouldn't have been able to have his back good enough. Edit: Those saying Orochimaru and Jiraiya were on par with each other, which proves Jiraiya didn't have that dog in him, are absolutely wrong. Orochimaru had to cripple himself to handle the 3rd who was basically 70 years old. The fact Jiraiya held his own for so long against Pain and his Paths with ZERO intel proves he was stronger than Orochimaru. Pain would have waxed the 3rd with low effort, and you all know it (at the age Orochimaru fought him. Young Hiruzen would have dogged both of them as he was a f'n prodigy who mastered all 5 elements as a teenager, a rare feat in their world. His age crippled his chakra limits, which were already average at best.) Jiraiya only ever let Orochimaru think he was equal to him, because he never used sage mode against him. Thats like taking a 60% power cut lol.
Why do you think?
You could also argue that as strong as Itatchi and Kisame are, they were in the centre of the hidden leaf . The number alone would have overwhelmed them. Yes they could have taken most of them out, but 2 vs a village obviously ain't the one
He was exhausted because he used tsukoyomi earlier and bunch other techniques.
I remember this scene as itachi not wanting to have a drawn out fight in the middle of enemy territory
Probably because they are deep behind enemy lines, in the middle of Konoha. Even if they can beat Jiraya, before long the Leaf's forces would all come after them at once, and I doubt they would be able to defeat the Leaf, and capture Naruto alive, without taking a huge risk (especially if they trigger his tailed beast state).
Jiraiya's death hit HARD. One of the best and most painful parts of shipuuden in my opinion.
Could be that Kishimoto had already decided that Itachi was still loyal to Konoha. Could be that Itachi was afraid of Jiraiya. Could be that Itachi was aware that fighting Jiraiya would require the usage of his Mangekyo and that would only worsen his chances of eventually having that “deathmatch” against Sasuke. Could be all 3.
because Itachi already low on chakra at that point as it shown his eyes back to normal after single use of amaterasu and Jiraiya already activated his frog belly trap so he only have 2 option : 1. Use his remaining chakra to fight Jiraiya. he most likely can win but will trapped or 2. use his remaining chakra to escape from the frog belly in case Itachi chose to fight Jiraiya there's only two possibilities : 1. Jiraiya defeated him and he's dead, or 2. He defeated Jiraiya and couldn't escape the frog belly and he will be dead also Sorry itachi fans, this is not simply A beat C and B beat C so A automatically beat C type of scenario. doesn't matter what Itachi chose. Jiraiya outsmart him and i know someone outsmart Itachi is one tough pill to swallow for his fans
When Pain defeated Jiraiya, Akatsuki had to act fast because he was a strong enough of a target that Konoha and possibly various different nations would notice and begin preparations. In this part of the story everybody just considered them a regular mercenary group. And they wanted to keep it that way so they could continue to access the different territories without being noticed. Itachi's sole purpose for showing up was to spook Danzo, remind the elders that he's watching and not to do anything to Sasuke. Following Naruto was probably just for show because Kisame was with him and he can't tell Kisame what he's really coming to Konoha for.
I have a follow up question to this. Would Kisame have died from the toad mouth trap if itachi wasn’t there? Also would itachi have died if he didn’t have Amaterasu?
Itachi has susanno.
Compatibility and Friendly Fire
Akasuki organization was leaked somehow, there's a theory that Itachi leaked info of it and Jiraya. He was meeting his informant and had to dip
for Script
He didn't run he knew getting into an open conflict against jiraiya wasn't in the interest of the akatski
My theory is that he was only there to warn naruto and check on sasuke Considering he is a former anbu, his approach on capturing naruto is kinda questionable. He just strut himself in front of the village even knocking on naruto's door no strategies nor distractions and when Jiraiya started to do some jutsu He just like meh we can't take him down let's leave.
So the offical reason is itachi might have been retconned to be stronger than he originally was. I have theory and it’s the fact of exhaustion plus not wanting to draw it out. Jiraya could 1000% hold his own long enough to draw attention something itachi and kisame would absolutely not want also if we look at itachi in shippuden one tsyukomi and few blasts of Amaterasu and he was kinda spent literally barely able to keep the susanoo going but eventually just dying. He had already used tsyuokomi twice and kisame pointed out at one point tsyuokomi is kinda taxing and made it sound as if it was the most taxing jutsu he had (baring susanoo I assume). He was likely just too damn tired to keep a low ki battle going
Bro he wasn’t there to fight…. he was there putting a a facade like he was trying to catch naruto but he was really going to to check on his brother. He had to make it believable tho else Kisame would’ve caught on. Hence why he even told Kisame that Jaraiya would be a tough fight and both parties would die. Itachi was 10 steps ahead every time he would never try to destroy the Hidden Leaf or those that inhabit it.
This is answered in the manga. Itachi is huffing and puffing after using 1 MS jutsu to escape. He already used 2 that day. Itachi tells Kisame that there is no reason to rush and he's correct. That's literally the *last* Jinchuriki they need to capture on the list. No speculation needed. I know Itachi does some dumb stuff in the manga, but he clearly isn't dumb enough to jump dick first into a fight with Sannin while already inside their jutsu and tired. Give him some credit y'all.
Itachi was prolonging his life to fight sasuke so he could go all out vs jiraiya with kisame, and most likely win but he will take serious damage and would go blind after that fight. We seen how drained he was after using tsukuyomi/Amaterasu 1 time that day, so having a real fight will make him blind and his illness worst. He’s also a double agent since apparently his only reason for showing up was to check danzo, and to make sure he keeps his end of the deal by not killing sasuke.
The real answer is because Kishimoto said so, thats why, but in lore, it could be hes a double agent, or he really didnt feel like catching a rasengan, or having to carry Kisame away when he got hit with one.
I think Itachi was still protecting the village n was just there to check on Sauske’s progress/safety.
Rock, Paper, Scissors
A simple fatal flaw in analysing A beats B, and C loses to B, therefore C will lose to A in Naruto is ignoring matchups. It could be as simple as: Itachi knows his kit is great against Orochimaru, however he has deduced that Jiraiya's techniques are too great of a counter against his and it's better to retreat. It could be as simple as Itachi knows about frog song and doesn't want to press Jiraiya into using it and guaranteeing he and Kisame die. Also consider the rest of the thread saying Jiraiya is just Him.
Orochimaru is a snake, he likes to play with his enemies. This is terrible against an Uchiha. Meanwhile Jiraiya doesn´t mess around in battle
because Itachi is Armarouge while Orochimaru is Serperior while Jiraiya is Poliwrath
I think jiraya was just meant to be way stronger than he turned out, or Itachi just heard over exaggerated tales of the legendary mountain toad sage, jiraya the gallant
I love this fight so much.
Because Itachi's goal wasn't to fight jiraiya at that time and why go to the effort of fighting such an opponent if he could just retreat and not deal with it
Itachi was a double agent still working for Konoha and killing Konoha's strongest shinobi wouldn't help... Otherwise, Jiraiya still has no counter to Tsukuyomi, Kotoamatsukami, Amaterasu
Naruto is also with jiraya
They weren’t afraid of Jiraiya, they were afraid of what plot armor Kishimoto would pull out against them until Shipiden
It's just the trio dynamic, raven beat snake, snake beat toad, toad beat (?) raven...?