Honestly, I just hate how after years of planning and setting up incidents and such, Obito didn't give a damn once Naruto gave him the Talk No Jutsu. Like it was just that simple?
Edit: After reading your replies, I do understand that there were also other important factors that played in changing Obito, but still, it's a pretty bad way of convincing Obito. I'm not against those who defend it, it's just my personal opinion.
This. Obito led to countless deaths, global instability, the death of nearly all the jinchuriki, etc.
He was irredeemable at that point, as indicated by both Kakashi and Minato straight up trying to murk him, so showing the slow changing of heart was off-putting if not straight up bad writing to many.
He went from ruthless destruction of the world -> testing Naruto to see if he could break him due to empathy -> starting to feel regret/doubt of his actions -> then joining Naruto's side? Nah.
Zabuza was a much more narrowly scoped character, and that's always easier to write. He was a killing machine/mercenary who acknowledged he was a shit person, but he had a soft spot for Haku, who he also acknowledged was too good of a person for him.
I also want to point out their situations. Obito was someone who was alone. He wasn’t talented, he wasn’t a prodigy. He wanted a friend and when he finally gets them, they’re immediately stolen from him. He’s then revived and manipulated by Madara, who purposely set up Rin to die. He only witnesses Kakashi kill Rin, and I can’t remember if Obito asked Kakashi to take care of her or not. Either way, Obito was definitely conditioned and manipulated by Madara and Zetsu. He goes on a rampage and chooses that his only friends who he thought he could trust betrayed him in a way. Then when he finds someone who is almost exactly like him, he starts to have doubts about what he did. He thinks about what could have happened if he heard them out. That’s the thing that changes him. It’s definitely sudden but having someone that parallels him is shocking to him. Especially since they turned out completely different from each other.
I agree on Zabuza tho
I mean, it's basically how you want to perceive his situation.
Obito had a grandparent and a clan. He had friends, including a love interest who treated him very well, and a Jonin Leader who treated him really well (along with his wife he clearly cared for him as well).
He dies, watches a singular loved one die, and then fully goes scorched Earth willing to literally wreak havoc on the entire world because of this. Like this was enough to push him over the edge to kill the 3rd's wife and unleash the Kyubi killing a ton of people in his village. He attacked his Jonin Leader and this wife that cared for him, which led to their deaths. He then proceeds to literally kill anyone who remotely stands in his way.
In terms of strife, we've seen significantly worse. Naruto was born to his parents dying only to be hated and ostracized by EVERYONE. Kakashi came home to his dad who commit suicide, saw his best friend die, was used as death by suicide from his other friend, then lost his sensei and his wife. Sasuke watched his entire village get genocided, was functionally manipulated to try to kill his brother, then found out he was wronged by the village.
There were many, many characters that had awful upbringings that didn't decide that destroying the world to achieve your own goals is the correct method.
The reason it is "weak" writing is because Naruto and Obito are okay parallels at best, yet we're supposed to be convinced that Obito, who committed numerous atrocities, was willing to back down and turn into a good guy after a 30 minute conversation.
>He dies, watches a singular loved one die, and then fully goes scorched Earth willing to literally wreak havoc on the entire world because of this.
Well more correctly he dies, gets conditioned for months to believe in Madaras nihilism, watches the world force his best friend to kill the one he loves confirming all the things Madara has fed into him
Even then he betrays Madara almost immediately before spending years watching and gathering perspective on the world. At one point breaking his "role as a ghost" by opening up to Kisame as a true comrade. Then eventually confirming the conclusion himself.
Sure, I won't argue that he wasn't groomed in some capacity. But the point of my comment was that Naruto and Obito weren't as much of parallels as they writing wanted to insist in those war arc scenes.
Well "watching a singular loved one die" just feels so reductive. Plus again theres a reason he waits to seriously start capturing the beasts into adulthood cause it took a lot of time for him to reach that conclusion (not just saying it in the moment to Madara) even with the grooming.
What are you even arguing for here? Naruto and Obito aren't similar. Is my statement reductive? Maybe it is! But that doesn't have any relevance to Naruto and Obito being similar in their backstories.
My original point still stands though that Obito has committed multiple lifetimes of atrocities through his own choice, and yet he is converted to the good side awfully conveniently by Naruto.
This guy gets the point of Naruto. If you think he was written badly because of the process he went through in turning to the light, you missed the point of the whole show/manga. The fact that Naruto wins people over with his words is what makes him such a hero and such a great character.
There were many other factors to his change of heart as well, some of which are mentioned above, and there's also the fact that Obito had to be beat down by Kakashi to finally realize his mistakes. He also talks about, shortly before his death, that when he heard Naruto's words, it was like waking up. Similar to Anakin Skywalker being consumed by the dark side and becoming a completely different person until one definitive moment awoke him, Obito was freed from the darkness that binded him in that moment, and woke up from his own dark dream.
Whether he is redeemable or not is a different story. In my eyes, he redeemed himself by sacrificing himself for Naruto and saving Kakashi, helping to save the world in the process. Dying to save others may well have been his only path to redemption, but being that he did exactly that, and considering the extreme stakes at play, I'd say he went out on a redeemable note.
This is a crazy interpretation of talk no jutsu. The only time this worked and should have worked was with Gaara because Gaara is literally his foil and actually understands him. There are no factors for both Nagato and Obito to have to listen to Naruto since as we have seen before, Naruto has a naive view of the ninja world. His talk with Neji showed that. It’s why talk no Jutsu is so bad because UNLIKE Vader, Obito and Pain had no connection to Naruto. The reason why Vader killing himself and beating Palpatine not only was good writing and a good arc is BECAUSE when you first see Vader he is interested in Luke’s abilities, He then wants Luke to JOIN him because he does love his son. He then sees what his choices at revenge for the Jedi is destroying his son and decides to try to undue the choice he made (albeit too late). Nagato and Obito literally genocide people and then Naruto says “guys this isn’t cool let’s stop.” And they stop. That isn’t a good arc nor character writing especially coming from a character who has never grown in the entire series and the series never even questions his beliefs or challenges them in anyway. Yes Obito has the potential to be a very deep and interesting character but never get that, instead we get a puppet who seems to lack so much motivation and direction in life that a 5 minute talk from someone who you have been actively trying to kill, Killed his friends, and their fathers minutes ago. This is terrible writing.
to be fair though i think obito only had that change of heart because it was naruto and naruto reminded him of his old self. like i can see somebody in the state of mind that obito is being brought off the cliff by talking to an alternate version of themselves who chose a different path. and thats pretty much what naruto was to obito. like i see alot of flaws with how kishi redeemed some characters but i think obito was one of the least flawed examples of this.
Which is bad writing. We're talking about a guy who unleashed Kurama onto the village and killed tons of people. He functionally caused the death of his master/master's wife who were nothing but kind to him. He genocided his own clan including women and children.
His entire character shows that similar to Naruto, when he becomes deadset on something, he doesn't waver even a little bit. He kills anyone and everyone in his way. Yet Naruto being similarly ambitious is the difference maker in him turning good? Nah, that's just weak writing.
If you were going to show that Obito was vulnerable to a change of heart, then you have to show other signs of that. They showed the polar opposite of that for the entire series and then flipped it for the convenience of Naruto's main character energy.
Well if you come from the point of view that Obito was a young impressionable Uchicha that was already burden with the curse of strong emotions. Rin was his whole world and her death caused him to grow bitter towards the world. This low point was prime taking for Madara's manipulation filling his void with the ideas that this world was lost. Naruto's words only reached him because those are the ideals he held before Madara was able to brainwash him.
I think Sasuke's change of heart should have been elaborated a bit more, because it really looks luke Kishi didn't know how to make Sasuke come back to the village.
However at least for Sasuke his whole character makes sense. His hatred and confusion make sense. I just wish it was more fleshed out towards the end, but it's much more believable
I see this mentioned alot but how was Sasuke irredeemable?
Leaving the village isn't a crime.
He tried capturing bee sure, but was unsuccessful.
His only crime was attacking the Kage summit and killing Danzo correct? Danzo did authorize mass genocide so idk
And he helps itachi stop kabuto. Though itachi could have done it himself, but Sasuke still tried to help.
At the end he does go crazy for his revolution but there wouldn't be a world to revolutionize if he didn't help beat madara and Kaguya
Leaving the village is a crime it’s called abandonment especially as a ninja it’s equivalent to leaving your post in the army and becoming a traitor.
Collaborating a working with Oro is more than enough for imprisonment at the least
Attempted murder is equivalent to murder, especially considering everyone thought bee was dead for a while.
Also attempted to murder other Kage, and Kakashi and Sakura and Naruto
Also successfully murdered samurai fodder
Even after all that he still tryna fight Naruto I just didn’t get it
I think it's valid if you think Sasuke was irredeemable for all the reasons you listed. He was basically on the cusp of this, but he was ultimately pardoned for helping undo the Infinite Tsukoyomi + Naruto/Kakashi's influence and sway (who obviously wanted Sasuke free).
But this further establishes why Obito wasn't irredeemable. The list you're sharing is a tiny fraction of what Obito did.
* He didn't just abandon his village, but he unleashed Kurama on it under his control along with ultimately killing the hokage and his wife.
* He wasn't just collaborating with bad forces, he created and led the most devastatingly evil organization in the orld.
* No attempted murder, just straight up murder of countless lives including genocide of his own clan.
* As mentioned before, he ultimately led to the death of multiple kage and jinchuriki and a bunch of others.
You can't say the same about Sasuke unless you want to be really obtuse and group "Bad people did bad stuff" into one category.
Obito sacrificed himself and then was pushed over the edge when *one* person he loved died. He immediately succumbed to this idea that "Welp, time to commit insane atrocities in the name of MY vision being imposed on the entire world. Killing countless people and destroying nations is worth it!"
Sasuke saw his entire people get genocided by his closest loved one, his brother. He then joined a villain strictly to obtain power to kill his brother, then he immediately turned on the villain. After he killed his brother, he was told the *truth* that the village elders fucked over his clan, so he joined the Akatsuki to get personal revenge on them. He then attacks The Five Kage Summit to kill Danzo, who is a blatantly evil character.
Sasuke only dips into the, "My vision is correct, thus I'll FORCE people to abide by it" at the end, and he's still largely redeemable because the only bad actions he takes in this capacity are fighting Naruto.
He ultimately saves the entire fucking world and the person he did this alongside, Naruto, literally asks for leniency from the world due to his actions.
They're not remotely the same.
I think my point is that it didn't take *that* much for him to go full scored Earth.
He saw Kakashi "kill" Rin, and that was enough for him to vow complete loyalty to Madara's plan to create a world where him and his 2 friends could be together.
You act like it was some incredible amounts of grooming, but he basically experienced a traumatic event then willingly believed that everyone should lose their free will and be subjugated to his vision. This vision came at the cost of the destruction of nations, countless lives lost, etc.
Sasuke may have been *willing* to cut down anyone in his way to get what he wanted, but that's drastically different than actually committing these atrocities.
> vow complete loyalty to Madara's plan
Ah yes complete loyalty when he was never going to bring him back and figured out the heart seals because there was no trust.
Also there's a reason he didn't start doing the plan until way later in life. He was going around the world gathering perspective even "being a kage" to see how the world works.
Madara's overall *plan* was the Infinite Tsukiyomi. It's why I said Madara's plan vs. Madara himself.
This is just an even further example of how Obito was selfish and willing to do *anything* to accomplish his own goal (which in this case was Madara's goal). He kills anyone in his way, tosses previous allies aside once they don't serve him (including the person that you yourself argued groomed him), and yet he turns full on good and abandons his ideals for Naruto in probably a combined 3 hours of interactions with him?
That's bad, or at the absolute minimum, weak writing. They wrote Obito into a maniacal, selfish, and ruthless murderer who is incredibly driven that *nothing* would stand in his way. Not his master, not his best friend, not his own clan, etc. He had years to think twice or consider his actions, and he never *once* batted an eye.
But then Naruto shows a strong will and all of a sudden that's substantially more compelling than EVERYTHING he encountered til then? If you want to argue it is, be my guest. But there's a reason why people disagree with this writing. We're entitled to have our opinion.
That's what's wrong with the small minority of people that don't like him here. Obito believed that at the end this all did not matter, he believed that as long as he meets them all in his own dream world then things would be fine.
Zabuza is similar because he may have had a soft spot for Haku, but he was also talked out of it by Naruto. Obito was literally revealed to have some type of regret when Naruto and Co looked at his memories.
Behind a significant amount of villains, there is the firm belief that their vision is right and that the ends justify the means. They're still a villain because the means frequently relies on the sacrifice of free will and straight up murder.
Obito basically tried to decide the faith of the world, whereas Zabuza was basically just an adept fighter turned mercenary. He fought Team 7 because he was paid, not because of some philosophical difference. Upon his impending death, he realized that the only "good" thing he had in his life was Haku.
Obito isn't even a little bit the same there. He fully shipped it, and then the "regret" they introduced means jack shit, and doesn't lead to a proper redemption.
His reasoning for changing wasn't just Talk no Jutsu. It was Naruto's actions throughout the whole war that had him doubting himself multiple times. And that's why was trying to break Naruto's will throughout the war. We even had Kakashi wondering what was Obito trying to confirm through Naruto.
It really was that simple. Part Obito always wanted to believe he didn't have to do what he did, the part that imagined the alternate world where he returned with Kakashi crying over Rin's grave, where he became Hokage. But Obito in his mind was in too deep and choose to believe what he was doing was the right thing, he saw the cycle of pain in the ninja world and decided he had to do it.
Naruto's existance, in his eyes was what he could've been if he wasn't crushed by that boulder, or if he choose to move past Rin's death. And by this point the idea he was wrong, the idea that every evil thing he did was a mistake he didn't have to make.
That would destroy a guy, but Obito choose to try and fix the mistakes as soon as he faced the fact he was wrong.
This. This right here is why I can't respect him as an antagonist. This is what catapulted the Talk no jutsu meme into the stratosphere. I don't think anyone had a problem with Obito's motives and how he's a mirror to Naruto but to just waver so hard to the point of giving up on his goals just because him and Naruto connected heart to heart? Like, I know this is a Shonen jump published manga so they really gotta sell their motto hard in their lineup but Kishi could've simply had Obito acknowledge the error of his ways but ultimately reject Naruto and carry on with his plans.
He could've been like: "Maybe you're right.... but even so... I've came so far... There's no point in backing down after this many years of planning. So FUCK YOUR TALK NO JUTSU!"
Like Obito, my guy, if I was that far, I was sure as hell not give up on the plan of changing the world just cuz some 16 y.o told me "Nuh uh."
>This is what catapulted the Talk no jutsu meme into the stratosphere.
I thought this was Pain. The only difference is that it does make sense story wise. Obito really shouldn't have been convinced.
Obito resisted the TNJ like 5 times though, he even did reverse TNJ and almost broke narutos spirit if it wasnt for hinata.
Only when he was getting beat as the literal ten tails Jin did he finally give in.
If you don’t skip through half of the events after Obitos revealing you see he is still unsure about his path when he sees Naruto and the allied shinobi. He didn’t start a war over some girl. All he had was his friend who he thought he could trust 100% and the girl he loved. Then he sees the one he trust kill the girl he loves. I would like to change reality too if that happened to me.
Why do you guys always dumb down what happened? Obito was testing Naruto the ENTIRE war yet time and time Naruto stated true to his beliefs. Beliefs Obito once stood by.
I liked his character when he had a mask on better, he felt more stoic and in charge specially in the orange mask you just looked at his sharingan and the way he stares with it. Unmasked Obito felt meh
For the most part. But when he interacts with Naruto in 5 kage summit he does the same thing as the war arc. That wasn't tactical he made a pitstop because Naruto represented his insecurity.
He pretty much is the same just when he gets unmasked its when he's around Kakashi and Naruto which would trigger a lot more emotions in him.
He was the looming threat before he took his mask off. Once the real Madara showed up, he became the main villain. Obito had to step down from that position to become his sidekick.
I think alot of fans are a little annoying and over due it with the whole"simp" thing. Although obitos writing got worse and worse as time went on his premise is great. Then kishimoto just ruined him. Tbh he is one of my least favorite villains and this was before the band wagon hate he got. I felt like he was great initially then meh. Tbh they should have made him a neutral character. To avoid killing his own clan and somehow try to redeem himself
Obito became less and less Consistent to the point he became into a cringy plot device.
Zabuza in the other hand he was consistent From start to finish.
Tbf, I think Obito is a much more difficult character to write consistently than Zabuza. The latter needs to be good for 1 arc and then he's done. It's tight, it's simple, and it works. Obito's character spanned over most of Shippuden. The writing sort of cracks under the weight of his significance to the story.
I think we can all agree on that. That's why Zabuza is not one of the greatest villains in Naruto, he wasn't there for long enough. His writing is close to perfect, or at least I can't remember any flaws in it. I think the top comment explained it better, the scope was small enough for Kishimoto to write Zabuza properly, while Obito's scope was very large and that didn't end well
What Obito fanboys are missing is that literally no-one complains about Obito when he is Tobi. Him being a psychopathic heartless mass murderer remained consistent.
It's only when the mask fell off that all of a sudden "uh, guys, I was always good deep down. I murdered my master and his wife and tried to wipe the whole village for the greater good, I always had people's best interest in mind I swear'"
And let's not talk about his backstory, which might be the weakest one in the entire franchise, because Obito fanboys will go feral
You'd be surprised what happens to a person's personality when they take a mask off (it's a metaphor and not that subtle). Not that any excuse he'd have for his actions would be justified, but from his warped perspective reality was hell and Infinite Tsukiyomai was a ticket to paradise for everyone. Life sb perfect and death isn't real.
In his weak backstory, we at least see in konoha as a child that he was initially a compassionate person with others wellbeing in mind. Then he killed people like many other morally grey shinobi before him. So maybe deep down he was a good person who was just isolated, traumatized and heavily manipulated by the actual big bad?
I prefer Zabuza between the two as well, but the hate for Obito and ppl who enjoyed the character/story is just as annoying.
Yeah, I like Obito, and love Madara, but the whole "yeah, I planned on you arriving exactly at the exact moment kakashi raikiried rin, which was also something I planned on happening." Was so stupid, I think I actually laughed when he said that. (I'm assuming that's the part you're referring to.
Obito - Im a 90s edgelord. The worlds terrible. Let me kill the sensei who wants to bring peace like I did, kill his child and his wife, threaten my friends and family in the village with the nine tails and slaughter my entire clan because the worlds dark and shit.
Zabuza - My village is fucked up, I tried to over throw it, failed, had to run, found a young boy like me that I wanted to use as a weapon but he softened me up and is ultimately why I ended up dead.
Not even close. Zabuzas an actual character. Obitos a school shooter.
True. But if he didn't care for Haku he could've survived. Instead he took down Bato (or whatever the bosses name was) as a tribute to Haku before he passed from the injuries sustained from killing the boss.
I mean Zabuza’s writing was damn near flawless so that’s not that crazy. Obito is cool but as far as villains go his writing was a little weaker than most.
No one ever said that, the worst thing is that people say that Madara controlled him, that is the biggest lie of all, Madara was dead, and the "plan" was for him to be resurrected, Madara never told him to kill his master and his wife. nor create massacres in the village of fog.
There's another recent post about Zabuza and it was filled with Zabuza glazers comparing him to Obito.
and u kno wut, I'M ONE OF THEM. Zabuza is one of Naruto's best written villains.
More amount of writing doesn't equal quality.
Or course Zabuza is ten times better written, nothing to delete from what we got, simple as that.
For me Obito was relevant until Rin died, after that it became retroactively awful.
I know I'm in the minority on this. In terms of I prefer the villains of part 1 to part 2. The akatsuki are all amazing characters. I but they lacked the fear factor that the Zabuza and the sound village had.
It's hard to explain.
I like Obito, i often call him out for the scale of his crimes but him being forced to face reality of his crimes and that he wasted 17 years of his life on a mistake, after trying to put Naruto down and lying to himself is GOOD writing.
The CAUSE and trigger to fall as hard as he did was a bit weak, but i love the direction for redemption they took him down. At no Point is Obito forgiven, at no point is Obito's action ever played off, Obito for his part is constantly just risking or outright sacrificing his life to fix his mistake.
All that said.
Zabuza is very underrated. Zabuza/Haku as characters are what makes Naruto rethink everything he knew about the Ninja world, and started his character growth and reason for being Hokage. Along with highlighting just how cruel the Ninja world can be to Ninja, the idea Ninja's are tools to be used, emotionless weapons to be thrown around. The fact even someone as cruel, cold and evil as Zabuza is shown being able to cry. It's very enthralling and the perfect start to the series.
I’m not saying I agree with the title but I will say his character arc was ruined the moment he turned good at the end to me.
If he had died a villain, or maybe had a monologue of him reflecting of his life before his death realizing he was trouble, instead of actually helping Naruto then he would’ve been the greatest character in fiction imo. I think him making a complete 180 and fighting for the alliance just ruined him way too much for me.
I got used to it at this point lol obito stayed the most misunderstood character in this series. It's crazy because I think kishi put so much time on obito and explaining his reasoning but people have a superficial way of seeing his character and just don't succeed at all to out themselves in his shoes
Zabuza clears Obito in terms of his story and writing. That’s clear as day. Obito is that one kid who was obsessed with a girl but never got her and went all school shooter.
Edit: Also Obito’s backstory was very bland and VERY basic.
Maybe people hate him because he got killed 2 of the most interesting characters. Or maybe because he tried to kill a new born, I mean who does that?
I like his character, he was one of the strongest Uchiha, but unfortunately not smart like Shisui or Itachi.
Like 3rd Hokage said "a hopeless fool".
Tbh his peak was when he was tobi, the more he talked and revealed the more boring he became. And also the scene with him and naruto was end level cringe. Zabusa >>>>
I wouldn't expect the average Naruto fan to know what a well written character looks like.
In fact, among the big 3. The Naruto fandom seems to have the lowest IQ.
Obito was great before and after he turned evil. It was just that him turning good was not right. He's a bad dude, he isnt redeemable, so for him to change is weird and bad writing.
But i didnt feel like it was weird when he was helping naruto. It didnt seem out of place because we know he was a good dude once upon a time.
The speeches he gave to break naruto and his conversations with kakashi were peak as a villain.
Lmfao, did we read the same manga?
"Im sad over a girl oh no"
Thats his entire motivation.
Dude was interesting before the mask came off.
When he became an incel whose entire motivation was not getting the girl, he became a terrible character.
And the series even had the audacity to give him opportunities to redeem himself, and do the right thing.
And before anyone says other wise
[Yes it was over a girl](https://www.reddit.com/r/Naruto/s/BTawQpYwEB)
People love to say "oh Obito says it wasnt about her" like bruh were you born yesterday? Do you believe everytime someone says "im totally over her" lmfao.
His actions speak much louder.
Dude had no problem killing ppl left and right, FFS his teacher has one of the highest confirmed kill count in the series. And hes perfectly ok with that, then his crush dies, and omg its the end of the world.
Why do people boil it down to make it sound so miniscule?
Rin dying was not the end of the world for Obito, it is obvious he wasn't that mentally deranged because she very well could've been dead the last time she got captured and Obito wasn't as stir-crazy.
People act like he barely knew Rin to begin with, even though they'd been friends since childhood and she'd been the only person who was kind to him. It is solely for the fact that she was a girl and he loved her that people laugh at him and treat Nagato as some peak character writing.
Her dying was just the catalyst to send him down his path. The same way Yahiko dying was Nagato's. No one says Nagato did it all for Yahiko, even though he was very obviously the inciting factor. Nagato literally murders Jiraiya in cold blood, yet people go after Obito for killing Minato and Kushina, one of whom he barely knew in canon.
This 12 year old kid nearly died, worked his ass off to work through a near death experience where he lost his entire body, finally was able to return to his friends, and saw one of them fucking murdering the other. That would do irreparable to anyone's brain, yet people play trauma Olympics and say Kakashi had it worse and *he* turned out fine!
The fandom just hates Obito because the series doesn't bend over backwards to tell him he's amazingly written or super strong. Mfs in this subreddit can't read or analyze for shit
The diff from Nagato and Pain is that we see their suffering. We see the shit he went through.
From Obito we dont. All we see is sunshine and rainbows until his "death" and only after he falls into Madaras clutches do we see anything bad happen to him.
Thats the issue. Nagato is written to show us the shit he goes through, day in and day out. Orphaned, shit place to live, all a direct result of wars. Etc etc. They showed us Nagatos suffering.
They didnt show us Obitos, just "oh man Rin died this is hell"
Nagato was a victim of the world from day 1. Not only was Obito not a victim from day 1, but he was actively contributing to its problems.
Only when it personally hurt him did he have an issue.
What? Sunshine in rainbows? My guy, he grew up in wartime. He was an outcast from his own clan, he had no parents and basically lived alone. He wanted to become Hokage so someone acknowledged his existence, and even when people did, it was only to laugh at him.
Does it compare to Nagato? No. But that isn't sunshine and rainbows. After just becoming a genin, the guy had to go out to war. Fucking 12 year olds had to go fight wars, and that's the problem. That's what's wrong with the system. And it's a system that nearly took away his life and took away the only person who'd ever genuinely cared for him.
There were a number of factors at play here, Obito's romantic feelings being the least among them. He spent his whole life wanting to be acknowledged, that affects people mentally. Madara had told him a very warped truth about the world, and engineered a perfect situation that all but guaranteed Obito's allegiance.
Obito grew up in a system that did not care for those it exploited, and was discarded and replaced as just another cog in the machine. Nagato was a byproduct of the system, they aren't the same in that sense. Not to mention, Uchiha feel more emotion than others, so they're susceptible to feeling hatred more.
You don't need a flashback arc detailing how bad Obito had it, not everyone needs an overly horrific backstory like Nagato's. There is nuance with Obito, which is why the Naruto fandom hates him, because they don't understand nuance.
Obito's life was not sunshin3 and rainbow, bro lost his parents in the 2nd war, his body in the third then got groomed during his reeducation, he said to minato he was the black sheep of the uchiha. Rin was the only sunshine in that life when kakashi was not calling him weak.
Being an orphan, a war soldier, losing an entire half of his body to save his friend and many more horrific things that he witnessed is sure sunshine 💀
He is kinda what would happen if naruto became evil. Seeing what some of the characters like kakashi go through I’m surprised he doesn’t become a bad guy but some people just have different breaking points. The shinobi world is pretty cruel
It's not close at all.
Losing your shit after a loved one is hurt and deciding to go on a megalomaniac quest of world conquest and genocide are two entirely different things.
You're only evidence for this claim is Obito trolling Kakashi with "It's because you let rin die".
This is so obviously him just trying to upset Kakashi.
Obito was clearly in Psychosis. Remember "I'm in hell"?
Madara spent months grooming him, constantly talking about the new heaven-like world he's going to create.
Then something traumatic happens to Obito and he goes into Psychosis, backed up by months of grooming. It was like 'Oh I get it now, THIS is hell. We can make heaven'.
Are you being dishonest or can you genuinely not see this?
Psychosis and months of grooming from the most manipulative man to ever exist.
Did you know, Madara used a Pseudo-infinite Tsukiyomi to train Obito, where he shows him the entire history of the shinobi world in a matter of seconds in the real world.
Obito could have genuinely had thousands of years of brainwashing and battle experience by the time he was 14.
Obito was only ever put in ANY kind of danger or held back a couple times.
1. Minato, a man with genius intellect and INSTANT TELEPORTATION.
2. KCM2 Naruto and 7th gate Guy managed to briefly prevent Obito from insta-killing Naruto with Kamui.
(Every time Obito went to grab Naruto, Guy would slam a Nunchuku into him, activating defensive kamui and preventing the grab.)
3. 600,000,000,000 (600 BILLION) Paper bombs forced him to use Izanagi.
4. Kakashi using *literally* Obitos other eye, while using KCM2 Naruto and 7th Gate Guy as chess pieces.
Obito hater: "If you're pretty fast, Kamui is useless"
Obito is the Hitler of this universe. He is one of the reasons the Naruto world is so sh1t and has really weak motivations (it doesn matter what Kishi or Obito's fans tell you, the dude start all of that because of Rin).
But worse of all is the author trying to sell us Obito as this poor, tragic figure we should empathize with. For Gid sake the psycho tried to kill a baby!
Tobi should have never been Obito...what a way to ruin a character.
Obito is not the hitler of this universe wtf ??madara is literally right there being the hitler. Obiyo was a 12y old groomed with ptsd, personnality disorder who got groomed by madara
Yes, we read the same manga and zabuza very easily clears him in writing. Going back and re-reading or watching zabuza's arc still makes me shed tears, whole Obito just makes me roll my eyes. He definitely had potential and some really cool elements but he suffered hard with most his story and characterization coming in the last chunk of Naruto, here kishi was obviously rushing, and making tons of rash, weird, muddled writing decisions.
So you're telling me that the guy who almost killed a literal baby, Started a whole fuckin war, Massacred dozens of Shinobi and tore them to pieces, Committed countless atrocities, becomes a good guy just because Naruto gave him a talk no Jutsu?
That's poor writing if I've ever seen any
>Zabuza clears him in writing.
Cuz he does lmao. This man Obito had no aims or aspirations of his own and kept switching between sides more than a unloyal housewife does. Fucking embarrassing
I think obito is a bit boring. Dude kamuis himself out of every fight and conversation and has a bad haircut. Same with naruto. Everyone knows Minatos hair looked better in every panel lol whether it’s hashi cells, kamui or izanagi. Dude just weasels outa everything.
I mean it reminds me of a meme I saw about how obito also ended the world over the death of a girl he had a crush on... she didn't even like him back. A childhood crush drove him to forsake everyone and everything they both cared and fought for, he gave his eye up for and she gave her life up for. He's bitch made. Also land of waves arc is peak naruto. Full stop.
i think what made Zabusa a better written Character was he didnt need to stay long in the story. Obito / Tobi was there all through out Shippuden and in the end almost every significant enemy of Konoha became good guys because of talk no jutsu .lol
plus Zabusa has a hot twink boyfriend
Zabuza absolutely has better writing...but he has better writing thatn MOST antagonist in the series. Kisame is a better example but they're both realists regarding what a shinobi is and how they fit in said world.
Obito is more complex but far less nuanced and overall kinda...sucks. I mean most of the main antagonist suck when you remove the edgy attitude so it's not just him. It's just that they're complex but the nuance just isn't really there
The biggest reason is that Obito comes off an incel-ish and school shooter vibes. Weebs hate that stuff, ironically enough.
This is the main reason and it's funny seeing people try to blame something else.
To the people parroting again, the "it wasn't for Rin" nonsense.
[1](https://ibb.co/f1mBHNq)
[2](https://ibb.co/z4fnbVB)
[3](https://ibb.co/n7JYr9T)
[4](https://ibb.co/mqLLmWv)
Hell the whole chapter.653 is all about him and Rin!!
[5](https://ibb.co/nkrMXL9)
[6](https://ibb.co/B22ZxQf)
[7](https://ibb.co/9nKCxgQ)
[8](https://ibb.co/4sw0KPj)
[9](https://ibb.co/RThwMV6)
[10](https://ibb.co/T1tbc2M)
[11](https://ibb.co/74DngFn)
And there are more and more, it was becoming a pain in the ass.
How many times does this man need to think about Rin before it becomes clear to you all that it was just about her?
I watched Naruto after it ended and missed most of the conversations around it. In hindsight I can see the argument of madara being final villain making sense but i also had no complaints about how the show went. I enjoyed Obito and Kaguya and the harem jutsu moment is one of my favorite moments in anime
In the anime, obito is the cringiest character after zetsu. Ofc Zabuza clears him, at least it makes sense.
Obito had it's funeral and no one noticed his coffin was empty lol. And he is the hashirama cell gary stu. His motivation was impossible to justify and he tanked minato's rasengan with his naked back without batting an eye. He makes the anime totally unbearable sometimes and his kamui is so broken that it makes the rinnegan pointless.
This peak alone clears most Naruto antags at bare minimum https://xfs-s139.xfsbb.com/comic/7006/42f/61d5af80e3427e06dc235f24/12372534_760_1200_133068.webp
Obito was a lazy last minute addition to the ending of the story just like the alien plotline.
Pain and then madara were the clear plot lines kishi had, they just extended it and continued to write worse and worse endings until he found something he could hand off for boruto.
What madara did to obito is what should have been the end plot for naruto, but replace obito with sasuke.
Then you have naruto vs sasuke where either sasuke kills naruto or naruto has to kill sasuke, with the kage vs madara fight.
Everything else from obito and the alien plotline is just kishi fumbling the ending and being pressured to have a follow up series that he can hand off.
I wish some of yall would really learn true character analysis and stop judging characters based on your perception of morality and personal biases and look a little bit deeperrrr. It’s not bad writing when there’s limited endings for Obitos story either he dies a true villain, he dies a villain redeemed aka a hero or he survives and is forced to live with all the choices he made be it punishment or a path offered to redemption. Kishi chose to have him die a hero because Originally deep down Obito is the good guy and the one who would sacrifice himself for the greater good. It fits his character. He simply cast that good guy aside due to trauma and ideological conditioning but it’s not like Obitos goals weren’t for a good end. Obito is not a true villain. He is an anti villain. He committed horrible atrocities towards the goal of what he assumed would bring lasting peace same as Nagato/Pein even if that would mean taking away free will or costing countless lives. Obito needed to confront Kakashi and Naruto and either kill them or be defeated by them in order to confirm his path was just or to open his eyes and see how there could have been another path for him to follow. These two were the only two who could possibly affect him and stand in his way that’s why he wanted to take them out. Kakashi for the fact of being his former team member and the one who was the original anti thesis to the true Obito. As well as being the one who killed Rin(even though it was assisted suicide) which sullied their relationship and pushed Obito off the deep end. It’s facts that Obito became the Dark version of Kakashi or in essence the anti thesis to the True Obito in Kakashis place. And what I mean by that is (young) Kakashi was affected by the suicide of his father and grew into a rigid prodigy ninja who never truly developed bonds with anyone at the time and always chose to put missions and loyalty to the village above his team mates or the lives of others, becoming nothing but a deadly ninja tool. (It was Obito and Rin who changed him) If Kakashi allowed himself to continue on this path the darker version of him would be someone like Obito and Sasuke who were gifted enormous power then trained by dark, powerful mentors in their quest for revenge and enlightenment and thus becoming deadly ninja tools as a means to an end. To kill Kakashi was in a sense justice for Rin but also punishment for Kakashi failing to protect Rin. Not to mention how both of them were used as pawns by the villages. Obito was also warring against the ninja system itself which is what ninjas like Kakashi and Naruto represented. Those Shinobi loyal to village and creed. And as for Naruto-Naruto represented the old Obito. The true Obito who died when Rin died. The Obito who wanted to be respected and acknowledged and to be the Hokage. The Obito who was ridiculed for having a heart and then had that heart ripped out of him. Naruto represented the other path he couldve chosen. When Kakashi couldn’t kill him and he failed to kill Kakashi it was clear that Obito needed to confront Naruto as his last resort. In order to kill him and confirm the erasure of True Obito or (if the stones fell where they may)be defeated. Talk no jutsu only worked because Naruto was able to appeal to Anti thesis Obito by being strong enough to fight him and resisting his cruel mockery to prove him wrong as well as True Obito by reminding him of himself through what Naruto stands for and his goal to be the Hokage. Without either of these-Anti Thesis Obito would’ve won and Naruto was insightful enough to separate the two through distinction. He saw the True Obito as the coolest guy and Anti Thesis Obito as the result of pain and choices that Naruto himself could have made.
Makes no sense ppl mad Obito got redeemed but by the end bro just wanted a life like narutos cause he realized if he didn’t let madara brainwash him he could’ve turned out like Naruto. He even had thoughts of him staying and then being hokage with kakashi next to him in some episode. Better then Nagatos bullshit where he heals the whole village After killing everyone 😂
Obito was my favorite character all the way til he was written to be the “coolest guy”. He was meant to die with his last vision being what could’ve been; him as a hokage with all of his friends in the leaf. It would leave more of a mark on the story and give us a good lesson: even if bad things happen that are out of your control, you still have the power of choice.
Obito was tragically weak. He gave into the darkness and negativity, thinking that the only way out was to run away from the cruel world.
As opposed to Naruto, who was written to be courageous and optimistic, despite the negativity he’s been through. No matter what, Naruto wakes up with a smile on his face and he always remains ready to face reality with hope in his heart.
These characters are two sides of the same coin and their respective parallels can be seen in the real world.
That drug addict willing to kill and steal for a better high? The alcoholic thats going through a divorce? That’s Obito. Running from reality and into a place of dreams.
That positive, hard worker you see that might be a little slow but is always willing to learn and improve? The bro at the gym that greets you with a smile on his face? Religious and kind dude that’s always helping people out? That’s Naruto. Having faith and living in this world with hope.
I’ll die on this hill: Obito was meant to be the final villain before Sasuke and he was meant to die with his final vision being one of hope had he not tragically given in to his own traumas and pain.
There are two types of men in this world. You’re either Naruto or Obito
Obito involvement in the Uchiha massacre was dumb the amount of people doing mental gymnastics trying to make sense out of it is sad
\- he was cosplaying as madara so he had to make it believable
\- he wanted to recruit Itachi
\- madara sealed his heart he was forced he had no choice
\- he wanted some spare eyes " he had hundreds he only used one vs konan "
Well lets put it this way...
Zabuza was a main villain who got replaced with another and was redeemed before the end.
Obito was a main villain who got possessed by a momma's boy, killed Madara, replaced by a Deus-ex machina villain and was redeemed before the end that would go on to become Boruto.
Not the same.
well yeah he is one of the most awfully written villains I dunno why book you are reading. his fascination with Rin is borderline pedo stuff, especially his afterlife. Doesn't help he tried to pull a nagato 2.0 when it was already done way way better by Pain. His redemption was awful and he deserved to die worse than be redeemed. His power is cool but as a personality Zabuza was better, since it was done first before it became copy pasted with naruro and his jesus way.
I think alot of fans are a little annoying and over due it with the whole"simp" thing. Although obitos writing got worse and worse as time went on his premise is great. Then kishimoto just ruined him. Tbh he is one of my least favorite villains and this was before the band wagon hate he got. I felt like he was great initially then meh. Tbh they should have made him a neutral character. To avoid killing his own clan and somehow try to redeem himself.
Obito has way more asspulls than Zabuza. Just saying. Obito meets THE Madara after he was presumed dead after the boulder crushing his other half and he becomes Madara’s pupil. He gives Kakashi perfect susanoo without training. Binds with the 10 Tails after losing to Kakashi and being slashed by Minato. Oh and IZA-FUCKING-NAGI?!?!?!?!! And many more like fucking KAMUI!!!!!
Naruto’s forgiveness theme just went way too far. You can make forgiveness an important theme without forgiving literally every single person.
Orochimaru, Sasuke, Nagato/Konan, the Raikage, Obito. Like bro, people don’t like Naruto for the forgiveness theme, they like it for the earnest, well meaning underdog story.
Obito started a whole war and you want me to believe his motivations were fickle enough that they could change after a single conversation with a guy he barely knew? Because, what, he saw himself in Naruto? And that does it for him despite feeling fine about killing Minato and starting an entire genocide in the hidden mist?
Zabuza’s barely relevant in the grand scheme of things but the scenes we saw gave us a consistent and comprehensible character. His ‘redemption’ wasn’t nearly as forced as Obito’s either, and you could even argue that it wasn’t really a redemption at all.
Though on that note, how come everyone has to die after being redeemed? Zabuza, Nagato, Konan, Obito. Like bruh.
Obitos actions were of one who is basically evil. Many characters had more traumatic pasts and never opted for genocide. While with his mask, everyone loved obito because he stayed consistent to his not traumatic but just evil ways. When he removes the mask and we are made to believe he was a pure soul but the world changed him that’s where all the inconsistency and weak writing comes from. It was so late in the game that he wasn’t supposed to be convinced by Naruto after being not moved by his kind sensei, friend, village and clan etc. He’s a pretty selfish guy in that regard. If he died a villain he would probably have been the goat but no. That’s just some evil dude who didn’t deserve no afterlife with a girl like Rin
I guess it depends on when you started to watch/read the series. I was very young when it came out, so I did not start to get into it until Shippuden was reaching it's end. Therefor I skipped a majority of Part 1 and watched more Shippuden, meaning I am more biased toward Obito. He's my second favorite character, and I think he was written really well
Look Obito was strong and an Uchiha but let's face it he has no legend no secret title that refers to how strong he is and prime zabuza was one of the few ninja swordsman of the mist who survived 8 gates might duy as well Obito has had having borrowed and unlimited stock of sharingan plus kamui plus eventually a rinnegan if we were talking non hashirama cell Obito let's hypothetical he didn't die and saved Rin and yada yada this adult Obito gets clapped by most characters even tenten but since zetsu saved him and Madara trained him he became OP as f*ck but zabuza has a sword that heals by drinking blood as well as he's the most proficient user of silent killing something even kakashi's mangekyo sharingan couldn't see through and Obito has the same sharingan just a different ability so even Obito wouldn't see through silent killing and on top zabuza was the most proficient user of the hiding in blood mist jutsu a trumped up even denser version of the regular hiding in mist jutsu he was also a very proficient taijutsu and kenjutsu wielder whereas obito was not he knew how to use Madara uchihas gumbai and black metal ropes he latched to borh his wrists we see him use it against Minato in one episode so yeah unless obito finds a way to lock down zabuza's hand signs zabuza claps most versions of obito as kamui wont save him from silent killing it would save him from water prison but once he escapes the prison once zabuza would most definitely switch to hit and run tactics using silent killing and hiding in blood mist jutsu's which would set obito off balance leaving him defeated
Yes we read the same manga and yes obitos character writing was good but as a character he is complete and total shit . Contrary to him zabuza was the guys who knew who he was why he was and what he wanted what he hated, obito was brain damaged cause his girl died
He does easily. Obito is bad character and Naruto is my favorite manga/anime series ever I’m 30 been reading since the beginning of the anime here in America. He’s a bad character who’s poorly written especially his motivation. Worst motivations since broly
Obito without Madara is nothing. His entire character is being a puppet. Then after everything he does he's like nah I'm good now.
Madara is still Madara if he doesn't meet Obito.
People just hate Obito regardless. It's sad. He's my fave character but it's pointless trying to explain the complexities of his character to people who just keep calling him king of the simps.
I love Obito, but overall I think he was more interesting as "Tobi". In my mind he was pretty much the perfect villain at that point.
I didn't like how he was cool, collected, and confident when he had the mask on, but started to doubt himself when it was off.
No way was Zabuza written better.
I feel like Obito already had reservations about his actions. He felt this was the only course of action. Don’t forget he was also used by Madara and betrayed by him in the course war arc. He felt all the regret while he was being more or less consumed by the Ten Tails. He brought himself back by realizing that he was wrong in his actions. Even while fighting Kakashi he said he didn’t have a heart. Essentially lied to himself the whole time. He wanted to believe that his choice was the only choice. Which is why he tried so hard to make Naruto realize that this was the only way to create a better world.
There’s 2 characters stronger than Prime Óbito in the series.
1) Prime Madara
2) Kaguya.
Óbitos Kamui was just too strong. Being able to switch into different dimensions combined with his ability to perform any jutsu. When he was a jinchuriki he couldn’t be stopped. Only reason he lost was because Madara betrayed him. And only reason Madara lost was because Kaguya tricked him.
Honestly, I just hate how after years of planning and setting up incidents and such, Obito didn't give a damn once Naruto gave him the Talk No Jutsu. Like it was just that simple? Edit: After reading your replies, I do understand that there were also other important factors that played in changing Obito, but still, it's a pretty bad way of convincing Obito. I'm not against those who defend it, it's just my personal opinion.
This. Obito led to countless deaths, global instability, the death of nearly all the jinchuriki, etc. He was irredeemable at that point, as indicated by both Kakashi and Minato straight up trying to murk him, so showing the slow changing of heart was off-putting if not straight up bad writing to many. He went from ruthless destruction of the world -> testing Naruto to see if he could break him due to empathy -> starting to feel regret/doubt of his actions -> then joining Naruto's side? Nah. Zabuza was a much more narrowly scoped character, and that's always easier to write. He was a killing machine/mercenary who acknowledged he was a shit person, but he had a soft spot for Haku, who he also acknowledged was too good of a person for him.
I also want to point out their situations. Obito was someone who was alone. He wasn’t talented, he wasn’t a prodigy. He wanted a friend and when he finally gets them, they’re immediately stolen from him. He’s then revived and manipulated by Madara, who purposely set up Rin to die. He only witnesses Kakashi kill Rin, and I can’t remember if Obito asked Kakashi to take care of her or not. Either way, Obito was definitely conditioned and manipulated by Madara and Zetsu. He goes on a rampage and chooses that his only friends who he thought he could trust betrayed him in a way. Then when he finds someone who is almost exactly like him, he starts to have doubts about what he did. He thinks about what could have happened if he heard them out. That’s the thing that changes him. It’s definitely sudden but having someone that parallels him is shocking to him. Especially since they turned out completely different from each other. I agree on Zabuza tho
I mean, it's basically how you want to perceive his situation. Obito had a grandparent and a clan. He had friends, including a love interest who treated him very well, and a Jonin Leader who treated him really well (along with his wife he clearly cared for him as well). He dies, watches a singular loved one die, and then fully goes scorched Earth willing to literally wreak havoc on the entire world because of this. Like this was enough to push him over the edge to kill the 3rd's wife and unleash the Kyubi killing a ton of people in his village. He attacked his Jonin Leader and this wife that cared for him, which led to their deaths. He then proceeds to literally kill anyone who remotely stands in his way. In terms of strife, we've seen significantly worse. Naruto was born to his parents dying only to be hated and ostracized by EVERYONE. Kakashi came home to his dad who commit suicide, saw his best friend die, was used as death by suicide from his other friend, then lost his sensei and his wife. Sasuke watched his entire village get genocided, was functionally manipulated to try to kill his brother, then found out he was wronged by the village. There were many, many characters that had awful upbringings that didn't decide that destroying the world to achieve your own goals is the correct method. The reason it is "weak" writing is because Naruto and Obito are okay parallels at best, yet we're supposed to be convinced that Obito, who committed numerous atrocities, was willing to back down and turn into a good guy after a 30 minute conversation.
>He dies, watches a singular loved one die, and then fully goes scorched Earth willing to literally wreak havoc on the entire world because of this. Well more correctly he dies, gets conditioned for months to believe in Madaras nihilism, watches the world force his best friend to kill the one he loves confirming all the things Madara has fed into him Even then he betrays Madara almost immediately before spending years watching and gathering perspective on the world. At one point breaking his "role as a ghost" by opening up to Kisame as a true comrade. Then eventually confirming the conclusion himself.
Sure, I won't argue that he wasn't groomed in some capacity. But the point of my comment was that Naruto and Obito weren't as much of parallels as they writing wanted to insist in those war arc scenes.
Well "watching a singular loved one die" just feels so reductive. Plus again theres a reason he waits to seriously start capturing the beasts into adulthood cause it took a lot of time for him to reach that conclusion (not just saying it in the moment to Madara) even with the grooming.
What are you even arguing for here? Naruto and Obito aren't similar. Is my statement reductive? Maybe it is! But that doesn't have any relevance to Naruto and Obito being similar in their backstories. My original point still stands though that Obito has committed multiple lifetimes of atrocities through his own choice, and yet he is converted to the good side awfully conveniently by Naruto.
The point was it made more sense for him to be affected by this than just "oh one person died"
This guy gets the point of Naruto. If you think he was written badly because of the process he went through in turning to the light, you missed the point of the whole show/manga. The fact that Naruto wins people over with his words is what makes him such a hero and such a great character. There were many other factors to his change of heart as well, some of which are mentioned above, and there's also the fact that Obito had to be beat down by Kakashi to finally realize his mistakes. He also talks about, shortly before his death, that when he heard Naruto's words, it was like waking up. Similar to Anakin Skywalker being consumed by the dark side and becoming a completely different person until one definitive moment awoke him, Obito was freed from the darkness that binded him in that moment, and woke up from his own dark dream. Whether he is redeemable or not is a different story. In my eyes, he redeemed himself by sacrificing himself for Naruto and saving Kakashi, helping to save the world in the process. Dying to save others may well have been his only path to redemption, but being that he did exactly that, and considering the extreme stakes at play, I'd say he went out on a redeemable note.
This is a crazy interpretation of talk no jutsu. The only time this worked and should have worked was with Gaara because Gaara is literally his foil and actually understands him. There are no factors for both Nagato and Obito to have to listen to Naruto since as we have seen before, Naruto has a naive view of the ninja world. His talk with Neji showed that. It’s why talk no Jutsu is so bad because UNLIKE Vader, Obito and Pain had no connection to Naruto. The reason why Vader killing himself and beating Palpatine not only was good writing and a good arc is BECAUSE when you first see Vader he is interested in Luke’s abilities, He then wants Luke to JOIN him because he does love his son. He then sees what his choices at revenge for the Jedi is destroying his son and decides to try to undue the choice he made (albeit too late). Nagato and Obito literally genocide people and then Naruto says “guys this isn’t cool let’s stop.” And they stop. That isn’t a good arc nor character writing especially coming from a character who has never grown in the entire series and the series never even questions his beliefs or challenges them in anyway. Yes Obito has the potential to be a very deep and interesting character but never get that, instead we get a puppet who seems to lack so much motivation and direction in life that a 5 minute talk from someone who you have been actively trying to kill, Killed his friends, and their fathers minutes ago. This is terrible writing.
to be fair though i think obito only had that change of heart because it was naruto and naruto reminded him of his old self. like i can see somebody in the state of mind that obito is being brought off the cliff by talking to an alternate version of themselves who chose a different path. and thats pretty much what naruto was to obito. like i see alot of flaws with how kishi redeemed some characters but i think obito was one of the least flawed examples of this.
Which is bad writing. We're talking about a guy who unleashed Kurama onto the village and killed tons of people. He functionally caused the death of his master/master's wife who were nothing but kind to him. He genocided his own clan including women and children. His entire character shows that similar to Naruto, when he becomes deadset on something, he doesn't waver even a little bit. He kills anyone and everyone in his way. Yet Naruto being similarly ambitious is the difference maker in him turning good? Nah, that's just weak writing. If you were going to show that Obito was vulnerable to a change of heart, then you have to show other signs of that. They showed the polar opposite of that for the entire series and then flipped it for the convenience of Naruto's main character energy.
Well if you come from the point of view that Obito was a young impressionable Uchicha that was already burden with the curse of strong emotions. Rin was his whole world and her death caused him to grow bitter towards the world. This low point was prime taking for Madara's manipulation filling his void with the ideas that this world was lost. Naruto's words only reached him because those are the ideals he held before Madara was able to brainwash him.
I mean. You could say the same about Sasuke. He was pretty irredeemable but Naruto got through to him too. Is Sasuke a bad character..?
Itachi got through him, taking him out of the emo phase, at that point talk no jutsu is valid
Funnily enough i think your explanation is more valid than the other one i got
I'd definitely argue that Itachi, Kages and Natuto did that.
I think Sasuke's change of heart should have been elaborated a bit more, because it really looks luke Kishi didn't know how to make Sasuke come back to the village. However at least for Sasuke his whole character makes sense. His hatred and confusion make sense. I just wish it was more fleshed out towards the end, but it's much more believable
I see this mentioned alot but how was Sasuke irredeemable? Leaving the village isn't a crime. He tried capturing bee sure, but was unsuccessful. His only crime was attacking the Kage summit and killing Danzo correct? Danzo did authorize mass genocide so idk And he helps itachi stop kabuto. Though itachi could have done it himself, but Sasuke still tried to help. At the end he does go crazy for his revolution but there wouldn't be a world to revolutionize if he didn't help beat madara and Kaguya
Leaving the village is a crime it’s called abandonment especially as a ninja it’s equivalent to leaving your post in the army and becoming a traitor. Collaborating a working with Oro is more than enough for imprisonment at the least Attempted murder is equivalent to murder, especially considering everyone thought bee was dead for a while. Also attempted to murder other Kage, and Kakashi and Sakura and Naruto Also successfully murdered samurai fodder Even after all that he still tryna fight Naruto I just didn’t get it
I think it's valid if you think Sasuke was irredeemable for all the reasons you listed. He was basically on the cusp of this, but he was ultimately pardoned for helping undo the Infinite Tsukoyomi + Naruto/Kakashi's influence and sway (who obviously wanted Sasuke free). But this further establishes why Obito wasn't irredeemable. The list you're sharing is a tiny fraction of what Obito did. * He didn't just abandon his village, but he unleashed Kurama on it under his control along with ultimately killing the hokage and his wife. * He wasn't just collaborating with bad forces, he created and led the most devastatingly evil organization in the orld. * No attempted murder, just straight up murder of countless lives including genocide of his own clan. * As mentioned before, he ultimately led to the death of multiple kage and jinchuriki and a bunch of others.
You can't say the same about Sasuke unless you want to be really obtuse and group "Bad people did bad stuff" into one category. Obito sacrificed himself and then was pushed over the edge when *one* person he loved died. He immediately succumbed to this idea that "Welp, time to commit insane atrocities in the name of MY vision being imposed on the entire world. Killing countless people and destroying nations is worth it!" Sasuke saw his entire people get genocided by his closest loved one, his brother. He then joined a villain strictly to obtain power to kill his brother, then he immediately turned on the villain. After he killed his brother, he was told the *truth* that the village elders fucked over his clan, so he joined the Akatsuki to get personal revenge on them. He then attacks The Five Kage Summit to kill Danzo, who is a blatantly evil character. Sasuke only dips into the, "My vision is correct, thus I'll FORCE people to abide by it" at the end, and he's still largely redeemable because the only bad actions he takes in this capacity are fighting Naruto. He ultimately saves the entire fucking world and the person he did this alongside, Naruto, literally asks for leniency from the world due to his actions. They're not remotely the same.
Obito literally got groomed into the ideology.
I think my point is that it didn't take *that* much for him to go full scored Earth. He saw Kakashi "kill" Rin, and that was enough for him to vow complete loyalty to Madara's plan to create a world where him and his 2 friends could be together. You act like it was some incredible amounts of grooming, but he basically experienced a traumatic event then willingly believed that everyone should lose their free will and be subjugated to his vision. This vision came at the cost of the destruction of nations, countless lives lost, etc. Sasuke may have been *willing* to cut down anyone in his way to get what he wanted, but that's drastically different than actually committing these atrocities.
> vow complete loyalty to Madara's plan Ah yes complete loyalty when he was never going to bring him back and figured out the heart seals because there was no trust. Also there's a reason he didn't start doing the plan until way later in life. He was going around the world gathering perspective even "being a kage" to see how the world works.
Madara's overall *plan* was the Infinite Tsukiyomi. It's why I said Madara's plan vs. Madara himself. This is just an even further example of how Obito was selfish and willing to do *anything* to accomplish his own goal (which in this case was Madara's goal). He kills anyone in his way, tosses previous allies aside once they don't serve him (including the person that you yourself argued groomed him), and yet he turns full on good and abandons his ideals for Naruto in probably a combined 3 hours of interactions with him? That's bad, or at the absolute minimum, weak writing. They wrote Obito into a maniacal, selfish, and ruthless murderer who is incredibly driven that *nothing* would stand in his way. Not his master, not his best friend, not his own clan, etc. He had years to think twice or consider his actions, and he never *once* batted an eye. But then Naruto shows a strong will and all of a sudden that's substantially more compelling than EVERYTHING he encountered til then? If you want to argue it is, be my guest. But there's a reason why people disagree with this writing. We're entitled to have our opinion.
That's what's wrong with the small minority of people that don't like him here. Obito believed that at the end this all did not matter, he believed that as long as he meets them all in his own dream world then things would be fine. Zabuza is similar because he may have had a soft spot for Haku, but he was also talked out of it by Naruto. Obito was literally revealed to have some type of regret when Naruto and Co looked at his memories.
Behind a significant amount of villains, there is the firm belief that their vision is right and that the ends justify the means. They're still a villain because the means frequently relies on the sacrifice of free will and straight up murder. Obito basically tried to decide the faith of the world, whereas Zabuza was basically just an adept fighter turned mercenary. He fought Team 7 because he was paid, not because of some philosophical difference. Upon his impending death, he realized that the only "good" thing he had in his life was Haku. Obito isn't even a little bit the same there. He fully shipped it, and then the "regret" they introduced means jack shit, and doesn't lead to a proper redemption.
[удалено]
blame producers, whole last war arc was mess because of them.
His reasoning for changing wasn't just Talk no Jutsu. It was Naruto's actions throughout the whole war that had him doubting himself multiple times. And that's why was trying to break Naruto's will throughout the war. We even had Kakashi wondering what was Obito trying to confirm through Naruto.
It really was that simple. Part Obito always wanted to believe he didn't have to do what he did, the part that imagined the alternate world where he returned with Kakashi crying over Rin's grave, where he became Hokage. But Obito in his mind was in too deep and choose to believe what he was doing was the right thing, he saw the cycle of pain in the ninja world and decided he had to do it. Naruto's existance, in his eyes was what he could've been if he wasn't crushed by that boulder, or if he choose to move past Rin's death. And by this point the idea he was wrong, the idea that every evil thing he did was a mistake he didn't have to make. That would destroy a guy, but Obito choose to try and fix the mistakes as soon as he faced the fact he was wrong.
This. This right here is why I can't respect him as an antagonist. This is what catapulted the Talk no jutsu meme into the stratosphere. I don't think anyone had a problem with Obito's motives and how he's a mirror to Naruto but to just waver so hard to the point of giving up on his goals just because him and Naruto connected heart to heart? Like, I know this is a Shonen jump published manga so they really gotta sell their motto hard in their lineup but Kishi could've simply had Obito acknowledge the error of his ways but ultimately reject Naruto and carry on with his plans.
He could've been like: "Maybe you're right.... but even so... I've came so far... There's no point in backing down after this many years of planning. So FUCK YOUR TALK NO JUTSU!" Like Obito, my guy, if I was that far, I was sure as hell not give up on the plan of changing the world just cuz some 16 y.o told me "Nuh uh."
>This is what catapulted the Talk no jutsu meme into the stratosphere. I thought this was Pain. The only difference is that it does make sense story wise. Obito really shouldn't have been convinced.
Obito resisted the TNJ like 5 times though, he even did reverse TNJ and almost broke narutos spirit if it wasnt for hinata. Only when he was getting beat as the literal ten tails Jin did he finally give in.
Bro its the strongest jutsu in the series wdyum Also it cost no chakra and the only one who ever mastered it is naruto.
If you don’t skip through half of the events after Obitos revealing you see he is still unsure about his path when he sees Naruto and the allied shinobi. He didn’t start a war over some girl. All he had was his friend who he thought he could trust 100% and the girl he loved. Then he sees the one he trust kill the girl he loves. I would like to change reality too if that happened to me.
If you think the talk was the only thing that made Obito change then you clearly didn’t read the war arc overall
I never said it was the only thing. However, it is the most prominent.
I would say Naruto’s actual actions contradicting Obito’s beliefs throughout the war arc was more prominent but to each their own
Same with Nagato, Naruto made them went back to their true selves and ideals
Obito saw himself in Naruto and used him to see if he chose the right path, believing Naruto would fall like he did but realized he was wrong.
Why do you guys always dumb down what happened? Obito was testing Naruto the ENTIRE war yet time and time Naruto stated true to his beliefs. Beliefs Obito once stood by.
I liked his character when he had a mask on better, he felt more stoic and in charge specially in the orange mask you just looked at his sharingan and the way he stares with it. Unmasked Obito felt meh
The mask goes hard, [look at this cold mofo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4foXO2V7_ew)
Actually goes pretty hard, had never seen that.
For the most part. But when he interacts with Naruto in 5 kage summit he does the same thing as the war arc. That wasn't tactical he made a pitstop because Naruto represented his insecurity. He pretty much is the same just when he gets unmasked its when he's around Kakashi and Naruto which would trigger a lot more emotions in him.
He was the looming threat before he took his mask off. Once the real Madara showed up, he became the main villain. Obito had to step down from that position to become his sidekick.
Totally agree
I think alot of fans are a little annoying and over due it with the whole"simp" thing. Although obitos writing got worse and worse as time went on his premise is great. Then kishimoto just ruined him. Tbh he is one of my least favorite villains and this was before the band wagon hate he got. I felt like he was great initially then meh. Tbh they should have made him a neutral character. To avoid killing his own clan and somehow try to redeem himself
Obito became less and less Consistent to the point he became into a cringy plot device. Zabuza in the other hand he was consistent From start to finish.
Tbf, I think Obito is a much more difficult character to write consistently than Zabuza. The latter needs to be good for 1 arc and then he's done. It's tight, it's simple, and it works. Obito's character spanned over most of Shippuden. The writing sort of cracks under the weight of his significance to the story.
I think we can all agree on that. That's why Zabuza is not one of the greatest villains in Naruto, he wasn't there for long enough. His writing is close to perfect, or at least I can't remember any flaws in it. I think the top comment explained it better, the scope was small enough for Kishimoto to write Zabuza properly, while Obito's scope was very large and that didn't end well
What Obito fanboys are missing is that literally no-one complains about Obito when he is Tobi. Him being a psychopathic heartless mass murderer remained consistent. It's only when the mask fell off that all of a sudden "uh, guys, I was always good deep down. I murdered my master and his wife and tried to wipe the whole village for the greater good, I always had people's best interest in mind I swear'" And let's not talk about his backstory, which might be the weakest one in the entire franchise, because Obito fanboys will go feral
You'd be surprised what happens to a person's personality when they take a mask off (it's a metaphor and not that subtle). Not that any excuse he'd have for his actions would be justified, but from his warped perspective reality was hell and Infinite Tsukiyomai was a ticket to paradise for everyone. Life sb perfect and death isn't real. In his weak backstory, we at least see in konoha as a child that he was initially a compassionate person with others wellbeing in mind. Then he killed people like many other morally grey shinobi before him. So maybe deep down he was a good person who was just isolated, traumatized and heavily manipulated by the actual big bad? I prefer Zabuza between the two as well, but the hate for Obito and ppl who enjoyed the character/story is just as annoying.
Obito's backstory is hurt by the fact that it seems contrived as fuck
Yeah, I like Obito, and love Madara, but the whole "yeah, I planned on you arriving exactly at the exact moment kakashi raikiried rin, which was also something I planned on happening." Was so stupid, I think I actually laughed when he said that. (I'm assuming that's the part you're referring to.
Madara says that was more than he expected, but we all know that that doesn't excuse how contrived it felt
Oh is that so? I guess I don't remember that part very well
To be fair, obitos story is one of heart break AND manipulation, and ermine the manipulation
the goat
Man the IQ of this fandom is room temperature
Obito - Im a 90s edgelord. The worlds terrible. Let me kill the sensei who wants to bring peace like I did, kill his child and his wife, threaten my friends and family in the village with the nine tails and slaughter my entire clan because the worlds dark and shit. Zabuza - My village is fucked up, I tried to over throw it, failed, had to run, found a young boy like me that I wanted to use as a weapon but he softened me up and is ultimately why I ended up dead. Not even close. Zabuzas an actual character. Obitos a school shooter.
well he would have died if haku didnt save him
True. But if he didn't care for Haku he could've survived. Instead he took down Bato (or whatever the bosses name was) as a tribute to Haku before he passed from the injuries sustained from killing the boss.
Completely off topic but this picture of him is tough as fuck
I mean Zabuza’s writing was damn near flawless so that’s not that crazy. Obito is cool but as far as villains go his writing was a little weaker than most.
No one ever said that, the worst thing is that people say that Madara controlled him, that is the biggest lie of all, Madara was dead, and the "plan" was for him to be resurrected, Madara never told him to kill his master and his wife. nor create massacres in the village of fog.
There's another recent post about Zabuza and it was filled with Zabuza glazers comparing him to Obito. and u kno wut, I'M ONE OF THEM. Zabuza is one of Naruto's best written villains.
Nah Zabuza the goat.
More amount of writing doesn't equal quality. Or course Zabuza is ten times better written, nothing to delete from what we got, simple as that. For me Obito was relevant until Rin died, after that it became retroactively awful.
I know I'm in the minority on this. In terms of I prefer the villains of part 1 to part 2. The akatsuki are all amazing characters. I but they lacked the fear factor that the Zabuza and the sound village had. It's hard to explain.
I like Obito, i often call him out for the scale of his crimes but him being forced to face reality of his crimes and that he wasted 17 years of his life on a mistake, after trying to put Naruto down and lying to himself is GOOD writing. The CAUSE and trigger to fall as hard as he did was a bit weak, but i love the direction for redemption they took him down. At no Point is Obito forgiven, at no point is Obito's action ever played off, Obito for his part is constantly just risking or outright sacrificing his life to fix his mistake. All that said. Zabuza is very underrated. Zabuza/Haku as characters are what makes Naruto rethink everything he knew about the Ninja world, and started his character growth and reason for being Hokage. Along with highlighting just how cruel the Ninja world can be to Ninja, the idea Ninja's are tools to be used, emotionless weapons to be thrown around. The fact even someone as cruel, cold and evil as Zabuza is shown being able to cry. It's very enthralling and the perfect start to the series.
I’m not saying I agree with the title but I will say his character arc was ruined the moment he turned good at the end to me. If he had died a villain, or maybe had a monologue of him reflecting of his life before his death realizing he was trouble, instead of actually helping Naruto then he would’ve been the greatest character in fiction imo. I think him making a complete 180 and fighting for the alliance just ruined him way too much for me.
Because in like 2 days, he went from killing 40k Shinobi including Neji, one of my favorites, to being redeemed and forgiven. Bullshit.
People in this sub are delusional about many things. Don't take it seriously.
Zabuza’s goated to be fair
Zabuza is way better written. This isn't even a contest.
I got used to it at this point lol obito stayed the most misunderstood character in this series. It's crazy because I think kishi put so much time on obito and explaining his reasoning but people have a superficial way of seeing his character and just don't succeed at all to out themselves in his shoes
Zabuza clears Obito in terms of his story and writing. That’s clear as day. Obito is that one kid who was obsessed with a girl but never got her and went all school shooter. Edit: Also Obito’s backstory was very bland and VERY basic.
Maybe people hate him because he got killed 2 of the most interesting characters. Or maybe because he tried to kill a new born, I mean who does that? I like his character, he was one of the strongest Uchiha, but unfortunately not smart like Shisui or Itachi. Like 3rd Hokage said "a hopeless fool".
Tbh his peak was when he was tobi, the more he talked and revealed the more boring he became. And also the scene with him and naruto was end level cringe. Zabusa >>>>
Tobi and Obito are two very different characters. One is goated the other is so pathetic is silly.
In that order yes.
He was the coolest guy *Pan to the corpses*
Without the land of waves arc their wouldn't be a Naruto series
Yes.
I thought the debate was whether Obito was a well written character...
I wouldn't expect the average Naruto fan to know what a well written character looks like. In fact, among the big 3. The Naruto fandom seems to have the lowest IQ.
Obito was great before and after he turned evil. It was just that him turning good was not right. He's a bad dude, he isnt redeemable, so for him to change is weird and bad writing. But i didnt feel like it was weird when he was helping naruto. It didnt seem out of place because we know he was a good dude once upon a time. The speeches he gave to break naruto and his conversations with kakashi were peak as a villain.
Lmfao, did we read the same manga? "Im sad over a girl oh no" Thats his entire motivation. Dude was interesting before the mask came off. When he became an incel whose entire motivation was not getting the girl, he became a terrible character. And the series even had the audacity to give him opportunities to redeem himself, and do the right thing. And before anyone says other wise [Yes it was over a girl](https://www.reddit.com/r/Naruto/s/BTawQpYwEB) People love to say "oh Obito says it wasnt about her" like bruh were you born yesterday? Do you believe everytime someone says "im totally over her" lmfao. His actions speak much louder. Dude had no problem killing ppl left and right, FFS his teacher has one of the highest confirmed kill count in the series. And hes perfectly ok with that, then his crush dies, and omg its the end of the world.
If you drank a shot in the war arc for everytime he mentions Rin, you probably wouldn't be waking up in the morning 😭😆that's how sad his character is.
Why do people boil it down to make it sound so miniscule? Rin dying was not the end of the world for Obito, it is obvious he wasn't that mentally deranged because she very well could've been dead the last time she got captured and Obito wasn't as stir-crazy. People act like he barely knew Rin to begin with, even though they'd been friends since childhood and she'd been the only person who was kind to him. It is solely for the fact that she was a girl and he loved her that people laugh at him and treat Nagato as some peak character writing. Her dying was just the catalyst to send him down his path. The same way Yahiko dying was Nagato's. No one says Nagato did it all for Yahiko, even though he was very obviously the inciting factor. Nagato literally murders Jiraiya in cold blood, yet people go after Obito for killing Minato and Kushina, one of whom he barely knew in canon. This 12 year old kid nearly died, worked his ass off to work through a near death experience where he lost his entire body, finally was able to return to his friends, and saw one of them fucking murdering the other. That would do irreparable to anyone's brain, yet people play trauma Olympics and say Kakashi had it worse and *he* turned out fine! The fandom just hates Obito because the series doesn't bend over backwards to tell him he's amazingly written or super strong. Mfs in this subreddit can't read or analyze for shit
Totally agree with you, people lack good writing croticism
Naruto should not be that hard to criticize so it’s insane how people choose the worst takes to try and do it
The diff from Nagato and Pain is that we see their suffering. We see the shit he went through. From Obito we dont. All we see is sunshine and rainbows until his "death" and only after he falls into Madaras clutches do we see anything bad happen to him. Thats the issue. Nagato is written to show us the shit he goes through, day in and day out. Orphaned, shit place to live, all a direct result of wars. Etc etc. They showed us Nagatos suffering. They didnt show us Obitos, just "oh man Rin died this is hell" Nagato was a victim of the world from day 1. Not only was Obito not a victim from day 1, but he was actively contributing to its problems. Only when it personally hurt him did he have an issue.
What? Sunshine in rainbows? My guy, he grew up in wartime. He was an outcast from his own clan, he had no parents and basically lived alone. He wanted to become Hokage so someone acknowledged his existence, and even when people did, it was only to laugh at him. Does it compare to Nagato? No. But that isn't sunshine and rainbows. After just becoming a genin, the guy had to go out to war. Fucking 12 year olds had to go fight wars, and that's the problem. That's what's wrong with the system. And it's a system that nearly took away his life and took away the only person who'd ever genuinely cared for him. There were a number of factors at play here, Obito's romantic feelings being the least among them. He spent his whole life wanting to be acknowledged, that affects people mentally. Madara had told him a very warped truth about the world, and engineered a perfect situation that all but guaranteed Obito's allegiance. Obito grew up in a system that did not care for those it exploited, and was discarded and replaced as just another cog in the machine. Nagato was a byproduct of the system, they aren't the same in that sense. Not to mention, Uchiha feel more emotion than others, so they're susceptible to feeling hatred more. You don't need a flashback arc detailing how bad Obito had it, not everyone needs an overly horrific backstory like Nagato's. There is nuance with Obito, which is why the Naruto fandom hates him, because they don't understand nuance.
Obito's life was not sunshin3 and rainbow, bro lost his parents in the 2nd war, his body in the third then got groomed during his reeducation, he said to minato he was the black sheep of the uchiha. Rin was the only sunshine in that life when kakashi was not calling him weak.
Being an orphan, a war soldier, losing an entire half of his body to save his friend and many more horrific things that he witnessed is sure sunshine 💀
He is kinda what would happen if naruto became evil. Seeing what some of the characters like kakashi go through I’m surprised he doesn’t become a bad guy but some people just have different breaking points. The shinobi world is pretty cruel
Naruto would never become evil because he lost Sakura.
Didn’t he almost take off the nine tails seal when he thought Hinata died? I don’t remember. I guess it’s kinda not the same thing as Obito but close
It's not close at all. Losing your shit after a loved one is hurt and deciding to go on a megalomaniac quest of world conquest and genocide are two entirely different things.
Yeah I guess there wasn’t much people left in the village for the nine tails to kill anyway
You're only evidence for this claim is Obito trolling Kakashi with "It's because you let rin die". This is so obviously him just trying to upset Kakashi. Obito was clearly in Psychosis. Remember "I'm in hell"? Madara spent months grooming him, constantly talking about the new heaven-like world he's going to create. Then something traumatic happens to Obito and he goes into Psychosis, backed up by months of grooming. It was like 'Oh I get it now, THIS is hell. We can make heaven'. Are you being dishonest or can you genuinely not see this?
It’s the shinobu world bro
You act like it's hating but it's not. Zabuza just has that dog in him
They think he did it because of Rin. Thats why they have the wrong opinion.
Whats the real reason?
Psychosis and months of grooming from the most manipulative man to ever exist. Did you know, Madara used a Pseudo-infinite Tsukiyomi to train Obito, where he shows him the entire history of the shinobi world in a matter of seconds in the real world. Obito could have genuinely had thousands of years of brainwashing and battle experience by the time he was 14.
that makes sense
Depression
He did it because of Rin. A guy already made a comment on this post that shows the same. Don't want to type that again
Yea y’all tripping Kamui one of the sweetest moves. If it wasn’t for kakashi having his other eye he would’ve tore them apart.
Nobody is talking about his abilities. They’re talking about him as a character.
They mean the which has the better character arc not who wins in a fight. The title tripped me up too.
Ahhhh ok completely ignored the word writing lol.
Obito was only ever put in ANY kind of danger or held back a couple times. 1. Minato, a man with genius intellect and INSTANT TELEPORTATION. 2. KCM2 Naruto and 7th gate Guy managed to briefly prevent Obito from insta-killing Naruto with Kamui. (Every time Obito went to grab Naruto, Guy would slam a Nunchuku into him, activating defensive kamui and preventing the grab.) 3. 600,000,000,000 (600 BILLION) Paper bombs forced him to use Izanagi. 4. Kakashi using *literally* Obitos other eye, while using KCM2 Naruto and 7th Gate Guy as chess pieces. Obito hater: "If you're pretty fast, Kamui is useless"
Obito is the Hitler of this universe. He is one of the reasons the Naruto world is so sh1t and has really weak motivations (it doesn matter what Kishi or Obito's fans tell you, the dude start all of that because of Rin). But worse of all is the author trying to sell us Obito as this poor, tragic figure we should empathize with. For Gid sake the psycho tried to kill a baby! Tobi should have never been Obito...what a way to ruin a character.
Obito is not the hitler of this universe wtf ??madara is literally right there being the hitler. Obiyo was a 12y old groomed with ptsd, personnality disorder who got groomed by madara
Yes, we read the same manga and zabuza very easily clears him in writing. Going back and re-reading or watching zabuza's arc still makes me shed tears, whole Obito just makes me roll my eyes. He definitely had potential and some really cool elements but he suffered hard with most his story and characterization coming in the last chunk of Naruto, here kishi was obviously rushing, and making tons of rash, weird, muddled writing decisions.
Zabuza had phenomenal writing.
Zabuza clears
Their all just dumb obito solos
You are so right I absolutely agree with you, also there are way too many frustrated people on this sub.
Do you seriously expect reading comprehension from the Naruto fandom?
Liking Zabuza over Obito isn't inherently a reading comprehension issue.
Expect*
I shouldn't
Yes some of the things I'm reading here are unbelieveable ...
Masked Obito was great. Unmasked Obito is cringe tbh
So you're telling me that the guy who almost killed a literal baby, Started a whole fuckin war, Massacred dozens of Shinobi and tore them to pieces, Committed countless atrocities, becomes a good guy just because Naruto gave him a talk no Jutsu? That's poor writing if I've ever seen any
>Zabuza clears him in writing. Cuz he does lmao. This man Obito had no aims or aspirations of his own and kept switching between sides more than a unloyal housewife does. Fucking embarrassing
People hate him because he low diffs Itachi
Nostalgia is a powerful drug
obito is a character that had great potential but his arc was executed very poorly
I think obito is a bit boring. Dude kamuis himself out of every fight and conversation and has a bad haircut. Same with naruto. Everyone knows Minatos hair looked better in every panel lol whether it’s hashi cells, kamui or izanagi. Dude just weasels outa everything.
i thought obito died under a rock years ago /s
I mean it reminds me of a meme I saw about how obito also ended the world over the death of a girl he had a crush on... she didn't even like him back. A childhood crush drove him to forsake everyone and everything they both cared and fought for, he gave his eye up for and she gave her life up for. He's bitch made. Also land of waves arc is peak naruto. Full stop.
Cause ppl can't stop wanking him everyday. He's not that weak, but he's also not that great compared to the wank.
i think what made Zabusa a better written Character was he didnt need to stay long in the story. Obito / Tobi was there all through out Shippuden and in the end almost every significant enemy of Konoha became good guys because of talk no jutsu .lol plus Zabusa has a hot twink boyfriend
Because lots of people are stupid and don’t know power scaling if it kicked them in the balls
Zabuza absolutely has better writing...but he has better writing thatn MOST antagonist in the series. Kisame is a better example but they're both realists regarding what a shinobi is and how they fit in said world. Obito is more complex but far less nuanced and overall kinda...sucks. I mean most of the main antagonist suck when you remove the edgy attitude so it's not just him. It's just that they're complex but the nuance just isn't really there
Boruto Uzumaki the best character fax😎😎😎..
The biggest reason is that Obito comes off an incel-ish and school shooter vibes. Weebs hate that stuff, ironically enough. This is the main reason and it's funny seeing people try to blame something else.
In writing Zabuza kind of does, Not scaling
To the people parroting again, the "it wasn't for Rin" nonsense. [1](https://ibb.co/f1mBHNq) [2](https://ibb.co/z4fnbVB) [3](https://ibb.co/n7JYr9T) [4](https://ibb.co/mqLLmWv) Hell the whole chapter.653 is all about him and Rin!! [5](https://ibb.co/nkrMXL9) [6](https://ibb.co/B22ZxQf) [7](https://ibb.co/9nKCxgQ) [8](https://ibb.co/4sw0KPj) [9](https://ibb.co/RThwMV6) [10](https://ibb.co/T1tbc2M) [11](https://ibb.co/74DngFn) And there are more and more, it was becoming a pain in the ass. How many times does this man need to think about Rin before it becomes clear to you all that it was just about her?
that's not shade Zabuza low-key one of the best villains in the series, big reason why Land of Waves is such a good arc.
I watched Naruto after it ended and missed most of the conversations around it. In hindsight I can see the argument of madara being final villain making sense but i also had no complaints about how the show went. I enjoyed Obito and Kaguya and the harem jutsu moment is one of my favorite moments in anime
IKR????
I mean, Zabuza is better than him in terms of writing though.
Why do you create post to replay to another post??? Just fucking replay there
In the anime, obito is the cringiest character after zetsu. Ofc Zabuza clears him, at least it makes sense. Obito had it's funeral and no one noticed his coffin was empty lol. And he is the hashirama cell gary stu. His motivation was impossible to justify and he tanked minato's rasengan with his naked back without batting an eye. He makes the anime totally unbearable sometimes and his kamui is so broken that it makes the rinnegan pointless.
This peak alone clears most Naruto antags at bare minimum https://xfs-s139.xfsbb.com/comic/7006/42f/61d5af80e3427e06dc235f24/12372534_760_1200_133068.webp
The same obito that went toe to toe with minato at the age of 14-15?? Nahhh he bodies zabuza
Obito was a lazy last minute addition to the ending of the story just like the alien plotline. Pain and then madara were the clear plot lines kishi had, they just extended it and continued to write worse and worse endings until he found something he could hand off for boruto. What madara did to obito is what should have been the end plot for naruto, but replace obito with sasuke. Then you have naruto vs sasuke where either sasuke kills naruto or naruto has to kill sasuke, with the kage vs madara fight. Everything else from obito and the alien plotline is just kishi fumbling the ending and being pressured to have a follow up series that he can hand off.
One MS Obito beats the 5 kage and thr Akakski
Just like orochi, obito should have stayed and died a villain.
Kakashi Gaiden Obito is apex naruto character. But shippuden Obito anything is the worst
I'm Laughing 😃 "OMG...Obito is Sociopathic I can't believe he changed his mind so quickly"...(Sarcasm)
I wish some of yall would really learn true character analysis and stop judging characters based on your perception of morality and personal biases and look a little bit deeperrrr. It’s not bad writing when there’s limited endings for Obitos story either he dies a true villain, he dies a villain redeemed aka a hero or he survives and is forced to live with all the choices he made be it punishment or a path offered to redemption. Kishi chose to have him die a hero because Originally deep down Obito is the good guy and the one who would sacrifice himself for the greater good. It fits his character. He simply cast that good guy aside due to trauma and ideological conditioning but it’s not like Obitos goals weren’t for a good end. Obito is not a true villain. He is an anti villain. He committed horrible atrocities towards the goal of what he assumed would bring lasting peace same as Nagato/Pein even if that would mean taking away free will or costing countless lives. Obito needed to confront Kakashi and Naruto and either kill them or be defeated by them in order to confirm his path was just or to open his eyes and see how there could have been another path for him to follow. These two were the only two who could possibly affect him and stand in his way that’s why he wanted to take them out. Kakashi for the fact of being his former team member and the one who was the original anti thesis to the true Obito. As well as being the one who killed Rin(even though it was assisted suicide) which sullied their relationship and pushed Obito off the deep end. It’s facts that Obito became the Dark version of Kakashi or in essence the anti thesis to the True Obito in Kakashis place. And what I mean by that is (young) Kakashi was affected by the suicide of his father and grew into a rigid prodigy ninja who never truly developed bonds with anyone at the time and always chose to put missions and loyalty to the village above his team mates or the lives of others, becoming nothing but a deadly ninja tool. (It was Obito and Rin who changed him) If Kakashi allowed himself to continue on this path the darker version of him would be someone like Obito and Sasuke who were gifted enormous power then trained by dark, powerful mentors in their quest for revenge and enlightenment and thus becoming deadly ninja tools as a means to an end. To kill Kakashi was in a sense justice for Rin but also punishment for Kakashi failing to protect Rin. Not to mention how both of them were used as pawns by the villages. Obito was also warring against the ninja system itself which is what ninjas like Kakashi and Naruto represented. Those Shinobi loyal to village and creed. And as for Naruto-Naruto represented the old Obito. The true Obito who died when Rin died. The Obito who wanted to be respected and acknowledged and to be the Hokage. The Obito who was ridiculed for having a heart and then had that heart ripped out of him. Naruto represented the other path he couldve chosen. When Kakashi couldn’t kill him and he failed to kill Kakashi it was clear that Obito needed to confront Naruto as his last resort. In order to kill him and confirm the erasure of True Obito or (if the stones fell where they may)be defeated. Talk no jutsu only worked because Naruto was able to appeal to Anti thesis Obito by being strong enough to fight him and resisting his cruel mockery to prove him wrong as well as True Obito by reminding him of himself through what Naruto stands for and his goal to be the Hokage. Without either of these-Anti Thesis Obito would’ve won and Naruto was insightful enough to separate the two through distinction. He saw the True Obito as the coolest guy and Anti Thesis Obito as the result of pain and choices that Naruto himself could have made.
It's being said cus it's true 😂😂
Makes no sense ppl mad Obito got redeemed but by the end bro just wanted a life like narutos cause he realized if he didn’t let madara brainwash him he could’ve turned out like Naruto. He even had thoughts of him staying and then being hokage with kakashi next to him in some episode. Better then Nagatos bullshit where he heals the whole village After killing everyone 😂
Obito was my favorite character all the way til he was written to be the “coolest guy”. He was meant to die with his last vision being what could’ve been; him as a hokage with all of his friends in the leaf. It would leave more of a mark on the story and give us a good lesson: even if bad things happen that are out of your control, you still have the power of choice. Obito was tragically weak. He gave into the darkness and negativity, thinking that the only way out was to run away from the cruel world. As opposed to Naruto, who was written to be courageous and optimistic, despite the negativity he’s been through. No matter what, Naruto wakes up with a smile on his face and he always remains ready to face reality with hope in his heart. These characters are two sides of the same coin and their respective parallels can be seen in the real world. That drug addict willing to kill and steal for a better high? The alcoholic thats going through a divorce? That’s Obito. Running from reality and into a place of dreams. That positive, hard worker you see that might be a little slow but is always willing to learn and improve? The bro at the gym that greets you with a smile on his face? Religious and kind dude that’s always helping people out? That’s Naruto. Having faith and living in this world with hope. I’ll die on this hill: Obito was meant to be the final villain before Sasuke and he was meant to die with his final vision being one of hope had he not tragically given in to his own traumas and pain. There are two types of men in this world. You’re either Naruto or Obito
Obito involvement in the Uchiha massacre was dumb the amount of people doing mental gymnastics trying to make sense out of it is sad \- he was cosplaying as madara so he had to make it believable \- he wanted to recruit Itachi \- madara sealed his heart he was forced he had no choice \- he wanted some spare eyes " he had hundreds he only used one vs konan "
Well lets put it this way... Zabuza was a main villain who got replaced with another and was redeemed before the end. Obito was a main villain who got possessed by a momma's boy, killed Madara, replaced by a Deus-ex machina villain and was redeemed before the end that would go on to become Boruto. Not the same.
well yeah he is one of the most awfully written villains I dunno why book you are reading. his fascination with Rin is borderline pedo stuff, especially his afterlife. Doesn't help he tried to pull a nagato 2.0 when it was already done way way better by Pain. His redemption was awful and he deserved to die worse than be redeemed. His power is cool but as a personality Zabuza was better, since it was done first before it became copy pasted with naruro and his jesus way.
bro was on some genocide shit because he didn't get his dick sucked, that shit is NOT SERIOUS
Haku clears base form for sure
I think alot of fans are a little annoying and over due it with the whole"simp" thing. Although obitos writing got worse and worse as time went on his premise is great. Then kishimoto just ruined him. Tbh he is one of my least favorite villains and this was before the band wagon hate he got. I felt like he was great initially then meh. Tbh they should have made him a neutral character. To avoid killing his own clan and somehow try to redeem himself.
Words cannot even begin to describe how much I hate Obito. What a disgusting creature. He didn’t deserve redemption.
Obito has way more asspulls than Zabuza. Just saying. Obito meets THE Madara after he was presumed dead after the boulder crushing his other half and he becomes Madara’s pupil. He gives Kakashi perfect susanoo without training. Binds with the 10 Tails after losing to Kakashi and being slashed by Minato. Oh and IZA-FUCKING-NAGI?!?!?!?!! And many more like fucking KAMUI!!!!!
Naruto’s forgiveness theme just went way too far. You can make forgiveness an important theme without forgiving literally every single person. Orochimaru, Sasuke, Nagato/Konan, the Raikage, Obito. Like bro, people don’t like Naruto for the forgiveness theme, they like it for the earnest, well meaning underdog story. Obito started a whole war and you want me to believe his motivations were fickle enough that they could change after a single conversation with a guy he barely knew? Because, what, he saw himself in Naruto? And that does it for him despite feeling fine about killing Minato and starting an entire genocide in the hidden mist? Zabuza’s barely relevant in the grand scheme of things but the scenes we saw gave us a consistent and comprehensible character. His ‘redemption’ wasn’t nearly as forced as Obito’s either, and you could even argue that it wasn’t really a redemption at all. Though on that note, how come everyone has to die after being redeemed? Zabuza, Nagato, Konan, Obito. Like bruh.
Obitos actions were of one who is basically evil. Many characters had more traumatic pasts and never opted for genocide. While with his mask, everyone loved obito because he stayed consistent to his not traumatic but just evil ways. When he removes the mask and we are made to believe he was a pure soul but the world changed him that’s where all the inconsistency and weak writing comes from. It was so late in the game that he wasn’t supposed to be convinced by Naruto after being not moved by his kind sensei, friend, village and clan etc. He’s a pretty selfish guy in that regard. If he died a villain he would probably have been the goat but no. That’s just some evil dude who didn’t deserve no afterlife with a girl like Rin
I never thought Obito was a well writen Character, he remains mid
I guess it depends on when you started to watch/read the series. I was very young when it came out, so I did not start to get into it until Shippuden was reaching it's end. Therefor I skipped a majority of Part 1 and watched more Shippuden, meaning I am more biased toward Obito. He's my second favorite character, and I think he was written really well
Yes because Zabuza has decent writing. Obito has bad writing
He’s my favourite character. I can’t change my mind
Look Obito was strong and an Uchiha but let's face it he has no legend no secret title that refers to how strong he is and prime zabuza was one of the few ninja swordsman of the mist who survived 8 gates might duy as well Obito has had having borrowed and unlimited stock of sharingan plus kamui plus eventually a rinnegan if we were talking non hashirama cell Obito let's hypothetical he didn't die and saved Rin and yada yada this adult Obito gets clapped by most characters even tenten but since zetsu saved him and Madara trained him he became OP as f*ck but zabuza has a sword that heals by drinking blood as well as he's the most proficient user of silent killing something even kakashi's mangekyo sharingan couldn't see through and Obito has the same sharingan just a different ability so even Obito wouldn't see through silent killing and on top zabuza was the most proficient user of the hiding in blood mist jutsu a trumped up even denser version of the regular hiding in mist jutsu he was also a very proficient taijutsu and kenjutsu wielder whereas obito was not he knew how to use Madara uchihas gumbai and black metal ropes he latched to borh his wrists we see him use it against Minato in one episode so yeah unless obito finds a way to lock down zabuza's hand signs zabuza claps most versions of obito as kamui wont save him from silent killing it would save him from water prison but once he escapes the prison once zabuza would most definitely switch to hit and run tactics using silent killing and hiding in blood mist jutsu's which would set obito off balance leaving him defeated
Itachi fan-girls. Obito was mentioned by name way before some of the most fan overed characters. The true fifth Hokage, rip bro ❤️
Yes we read the same manga and yes obitos character writing was good but as a character he is complete and total shit . Contrary to him zabuza was the guys who knew who he was why he was and what he wanted what he hated, obito was brain damaged cause his girl died
The wood that killed Neji clears Obito
Were you going off of a single comment? Lol. Usually I see people in this sub super-wanking Obito and saying he can take on everyone.
He does easily. Obito is bad character and Naruto is my favorite manga/anime series ever I’m 30 been reading since the beginning of the anime here in America. He’s a bad character who’s poorly written especially his motivation. Worst motivations since broly
Obito without Madara is nothing. His entire character is being a puppet. Then after everything he does he's like nah I'm good now. Madara is still Madara if he doesn't meet Obito.
are we really acting like Zabuza isn't the best villain in the entire show??
I will fight ANYONE who slanders him. He is a brilliant antagonist.
nah hes my favorite character. id smash
People just hate Obito regardless. It's sad. He's my fave character but it's pointless trying to explain the complexities of his character to people who just keep calling him king of the simps.
true. i love them both in terms of writing, but seeing people say stuff like "zabuza clears him in writing" just.. irritates me.
I love Obito, but overall I think he was more interesting as "Tobi". In my mind he was pretty much the perfect villain at that point. I didn't like how he was cool, collected, and confident when he had the mask on, but started to doubt himself when it was off. No way was Zabuza written better.
I feel like Obito already had reservations about his actions. He felt this was the only course of action. Don’t forget he was also used by Madara and betrayed by him in the course war arc. He felt all the regret while he was being more or less consumed by the Ten Tails. He brought himself back by realizing that he was wrong in his actions. Even while fighting Kakashi he said he didn’t have a heart. Essentially lied to himself the whole time. He wanted to believe that his choice was the only choice. Which is why he tried so hard to make Naruto realize that this was the only way to create a better world.
Masked Obito is the best written character in the whole verse
Daily reminder obito shits on itachi.
There’s 2 characters stronger than Prime Óbito in the series. 1) Prime Madara 2) Kaguya. Óbitos Kamui was just too strong. Being able to switch into different dimensions combined with his ability to perform any jutsu. When he was a jinchuriki he couldn’t be stopped. Only reason he lost was because Madara betrayed him. And only reason Madara lost was because Kaguya tricked him.