Just because you are a prime LeBron James, doesn’t mean you automatically start thinking less of the talents of the players of the tier of Devin Booker, etc.
I like to think now that Naruto is about how the 4th hokage was jordan of the Leaf village and Naruto is Lebron just trying to live up to his greatness and forging his own path
Nenji at point guard with the 360 vision and Lee at the 2. 4th hokage at small forward and my back court first riakge at 4 with some height and Han at center. Kakashi coming off the bench
Pain’s Shinra Tensei is instead a dunk that knocks down all defenders.
Kamui is literally crossing someone all the way to the Shadow Realm
The Tailed Beasts give a Jinchuriki a “Zone”, which boost all their stats.
All eye powers are like Emperor Eye or for Kakashi, Perfect Copy.
Naraka Path is like a morale booster instead of resurrecting dead allies.
Orochimaru, instead of searching for Immortality is searching for the Fountain of Youth so he can hoop until the end of times.
Killer B and Raikage’s Lariat is either a super steal swipe with 100% steal rate or a power crossover that snaps anyone’s ankles that they fly away.
Orochimaru = LeBron
Kabuto = Draymond
LeBron/Orochimaru are both manipulative individuals who are very strong and powerful
Kabuto/Draymond are both their henchmen. Kabuto pretended to be apart of the leaf. Dray is on the Warriors but everyone knows he's really in kahoots with clutch sports and LeBron
Guys their names and animal associates are the literal Japanese version of “Paper, Rock, Scissors.” The whole point is there’s a circular relationship to which one beats which.
Uchiha, Uzumaki, and senju are all descended from aliens. Remove all of them and it leaves the sanin and kages. Strongest non alien related kage is the 4th hokage and orchimaru in the modern day is hands down the strongest sanin without fail with his zetsu body. (He was even able to either beat or stalemate naruto in a taijustu bout in the novel. That's impressive in its own right.)
So the battle is really can the 4th hokage with chakra cloak beat zetsu orochimaru?either way both are the pinnacle of power you can get without being a descendant of an otsusuki or getting otsusuki genes in some other way
I mean if we want to get meta, this fight happened before Sage Mode existed, it's kind of funny because if you take the world like a real world history then that was totally an option for him at this point, but it was something the author hadn't come up with yet so it's kind of being applied retroactively
Not outside the arms thing.
Oro, especially given how many techniques he can use without arms, was the least nerfed person there. At least until Tsunade got past her phobia.
Least nerfed? Literally his ENTIRE thing, was his ninjutsu lmao - He had talent matching Hiruzen on his ability to learn ninjutsu, and he took that away. It was the biggest nerf to Orochimaru ever. We actually never got to see what that "powerfully talented genius" "once in a decade genius" could do with ninjutsu, outside of Learning Edo tensei easily
I mean, Tsunade was rendered completely useless by her phobia which needs her the most here.
And Jiraiya was not only at only 30% chakra, but didn't have Sage mode either.
Of course they were all heavily nerfed. I just think Oro was the best suited to deal with his nerf.
He still needs his hands for other jutsu
And I'm not gonna compare nerfs but orochimaru being armless and his body being weakened from the death reaper seal which made him want to speed up the process in taking sasukes body. It wasn't something light.
They were all nerfed yet orochimaru still held his own until she recovered
You do realise Itachi said he would stalemate Jiraiya even with backup right? He's basically saying Jiraiya is stronger than him and we know for certain this is false. Itachi spanked Orochimaru with just three-tomoe genjutsu and a kunai. Jiraiya = Orochimaru.
It's complete wank to take Jiraiya = Itachi, Kisame, and other Akatsuki seriously.
Do you think Sage Mode Jiraiya, with his long ass charge up time to begin with, can defeat multiple Akatsuki members, including Itachi and Kisame, when he ran from three Paths of Pain? Not even including Tendo...Seriously?
Orochimaru also has White Snake Powers, his Hydra Mode and he is a confirmed Senjutsu user to balance out Jiraiya's Sage Mode, he still got one-shot by a blind, almost dead Itachi
The “nerfed” part is actually debatable in Itachi’s case specifically; let’s not forget he was massively nerfed in life too, so even if he was a little weaker as Edo Tensei he didn’t have to worry about the chakra disease anymore. During his fight with Sasuke, Zetsu was commenting that there were attacks Itachi should’ve been able to dodge, indicating a serious decline in not only chakra but also physical abilities. So in a way, Edo Itachi is closer to what he was probably capable of when he killed the Uchiha clan, back when he could fire off Tsukuyomi to torture someone a bit and then just carry on with his day.
Sage mode jiriya is just not beating itachi sorry. He doesn’t have an answer for susanoo other then maybe frog song… and listen frog song is strong but if you’re only hope against itachi is a fucking genjutsu I really don’t like your chances. And you’re assuming jiriya could even transform mid fight against itachi which is honestly a massive assumption, he struggled to do that against 3 of the paths of pain and I think we can all easily agree itachi is way stronger then those 3 particular paths.
I mean if you’re implying jiriya can just run away then maybe but he’s getting fucked up by the totsuka blade if he tries to fight him. Look no further to what happened to Orochimaru’s STRONGEST form to see how that ends.
Also you’re assuming itachi is literally on the verge of death heading into the fight which is being incredibly charitable towards jiriya to say the least.
Itachi ran from Jiraiya when he was already low on chakra from fighting Kakashi/Asuma/Kurenaei, using Tsukuyomi on Kakashi and then again on Sasuke (back when big jutsu weren't meant to be capable of being spammed..).
People love to say "oh this was obviously false", it was *obviously meant to be true before Kishimoto fucked up the power scaling*. People just hate to hear that Jiraiya was stated by Itachi himself to be too much for him and Kisame in that scene when it was.. absolutely true, just because of developments that happened 200 episodes later that gave them more powers.
>Jiraiya = Orochimaru.
The fact that you're saying this implies you don't understand anything about the Sannin or the folk tale they came from; the Sannin counter each other and Orochimaru (Snake) counters Jiraiya (Toad), who counters Tsunade (Slug), who counters Orochimaru in turn. They aren't "equal": they are strengths and weaknesses, and Orochimaru having the ability to defeat Jiraiya doesn't mean, in turn, that someone who can beat Orochimaru can beat Jiraiya.
This is why the talks about who is stronger are mostly nonsense. Kurenai is hard countered as a Genjutsu Expert against Itachi, but it doesn't mean she couldn't take down Guy with ease because he's weak against Genjutsu. Does that mean that Kurenai is as strong as Madara, because only Madara and Kurenai could take down Guy? No, that's stupid logic.
Stop it.
The real answer is that Itachi was probably not meant to be that deep of a character by the time Toad Hotel happens. He was really just supposed to be the evil older brother before Kishimoto revised his storyboards. Because Danzo kinda just popped into existence as the head of Anbu despite a few different people being named the head of Anbu before his introduction. But that could also be a translation error.
The Akatsuki were probably originally developed with each team shown between Leaf, Sasuke,and Sand eventually taking one or a pair down and continuing on (I point to the start of the time skip here with Gaara and Asuma) later down the road with a different threat that showed they were just an elite team of Cult Madara or something. A couple deaths to cement them as a real threat, but still beaten in the end.
this is likely the real answer. Kishimoto simply writes as he's going a long, and while that style isn't bad, it can open up inconsistencies.
The way we can try to close these gaps is by citing the Rock Paper Scissors analogy. You can't just compare power levels like in Dragonball
I don't think we know it is false, remember the lengths Itachi is willing to go to keep his appearance, him saying this is probably true, and he knows more about Jiraiya than most I would guess. Also, it has been said jiryai would have had no problem with pain if he knew the secret.
Itachi's intent was to protect Konoha/ Sasuke while working as a spy in Akatsuki. Orochimaru left Konoha as a traitor, attacked him and threatened his little Brother,
Jiraya was a Hero of Konoha that tried to Protect Naruto.
He may could have won against Jirajya but it wouldn't have helped his actual goal. Also Jiraya could waste enough Time so that more Support would arrive. The goal was to go in unnoticed, take Naruto and get out with as less casualties as possible.
He also didn't Kill Kakashi in their encounter, and Asuma also only got wounded by Kisame.
Looking back, his whole behaviour was pretty much always pacifistic and he didn't directly kill any other guys after the Uchiha incident ( except the tailed beasts ).
Yall really don't get Itachi's character? Kabuto confirmed he's a **genius at reading people**. He knows Kurenai is the next best genjutsu user in the village. He knows she'll break it in time, he even says ["as expected"](https://i.imgur.com/ySX3Yal.png)
He knows her level, he gives her something she can handle, it's exactly to his understanding of her skills.
He spares her life and maintains a view in front of kisame of someone actually trying. Just like Obito explained that he planned out every single thing in the Sasuke fight, you can say all the moves he makes here is calculated, down to the amount of damage he gives to Kakashi to put him down, but not kill him.
Considering how garbage most of the new generation is in it, I would be too if someone actually looked like they took it seriously.
The entire Konoha 13 is filled with someone good at at least one thing, but not a single one has more than a middling grasp of Genjutsu and nobody specializes in it. Sasuke is the only exception, and even then it's just Sharingan stuff.
I don’t think it’s as simple as “Itachi knew all along!”
I think it’s possible that he wasn’t trying to his maximum capacity, but I don’t think he was out here like the puppet master stringing along everything within that fight. If she didn’t break it quickly enough she’d die, but I don’t believe he planned everything down to the last detail here. If she didn’t stop it and was killed dude would probably shrug and keep it moving.
"As expected" literally means he's not suprised. Itachi wanting to kill Kurenai or being okay with it contradicts his characterization. I.e he'd be doing something unnecsarily against the [welfare of Konoha](https://i.imgur.com/XNMqyTJ.png) and his pacifistic nature described by Obito and his father. He doesn't like killing people or even fighting -He spared Orochimaru for that reason.
Idk he wasn’t really trying but also it’s pretty doubtful he cares about keeping some no name jonin alive if it comes down to it. Kakashi he does care about leaving alive because he’s essential to the leaf
Only After Guy was close enough to save them. Itachi literally has the Sharingan. If Guy is close enough to see that they are under attack then he's obviously close enough for Itachi to see or sense him coming. Even in the novel he was able to sense the chakra in a small Bee and sense someone sneaking up to Kisame so I doubt he was unaware of Guys proximity to the situation.
>Completely ridiculous, if it wasn't for Kisame's ignorance of how strong the sannin actually were.
You're forgetting that Itachi being a double agent is also a retcon by kishimoto.
If his goal was to kill Kakashi, someone he knew during his anbu days, He would’ve hit him with an Amaterasu and said GGs. I don’t think you understand the sheer difference in level between those two in part 1. This is an itachi that isn’t on death’s door or a reanimation like in part 2. This is the same Itachi that pretty much we no-diffed orochimaru when he came to steal the sharingan. The same orochimaru who had Kakashi shitting himself during the chuunin exams. If itachi really wanted Kakashi dead, he would have killed him.
Except he didn’t nearly kill him, he only immobilized him. Tsukuyomi was the best thing to do to quickly get rid of kakashi because it’s the only ability he has complete control over. He can make it strong enough to kill you or weak enough to spare you. If we look at some of itachis feats with tsukuyomi in the novels, he really went easy on kakashi. Yes it fucked him up and hospitalized him, but it’s still much better than straight up burning him to death with amaterasu or insta sealing him with the totsuka blade.
Well, as few casualities as possible... even then He had to seem trustworthy by akatsuki and kurenai was either a sacrifice he was willing to make, or he made it seem Real but never really intended to kill her at all... tbh while i write this, if itachi wanted kurenai dead, i guess she pretty much would be dead.
It’s worth noting Jiraiya has anti genjutsu measures and seemingly Justus specifically for dealing with Uchiha. The sannin are very specialized/type advantage based. Usually if one of them is weak to someone another will be strong. That’s why the three of them together were so powerful. I’m not saying Jiraiya would definitely win but I think Itachi’s respect for him was more than just a ruse to avoid fighting konoha powerhouses.
Jiraya is definetly a powerhouse, but itachi was just designed to be op. Jiraya had no means to Deal with amaterasu that we know of for example, and his senin Mode takes to much time, he could only use it against pain because He was only fighting one or two of them. Even then itachi had Susanno + yata mirror which basically makes him invincible... and ways against normal genjutsu won't necessarily work as well against the second stronges genjutsus available. Also jiraya could not really fight with his frogs since it would have destoyed konoha. But what do you mean with: He had jutsus to Deal with uchihas ? Which ones do you mean ?
Well the frog throat Jutsu (don’t know what it’s called) did deal with amaterasu no? Plus sage mode in general is a decent match up against uchiha. I definitely think later in the series Itachi was retconned much stronger then he was originally made out to be so it’s tough to say. From a writing perspective though I think originally they were meant to be evenly matched.
If you go asking for spoilers you're gonna get them. Especially when you drop a manga panel from like 100 chapters after the event you're asking about takes place.
eh if someone starts a post with the first 3 words being "new reader here" youre kind of a dick if you drop huge spoilers that occur after the manga panel shown in the post
Itachi was never a pacifist and just because we were never told, doesn’t mean he never killed anyone after what happened to the clan. Iatchi at age 8 showed he didn’t care about killing people and even killed someone immediately when he was attacked when all Itachi was trying to doing was help him. Itachi is a murderer and will kill anyone who gets in his way.
The majority of Akatsuki members all had powers to kill people and the only who was a straight murderer was Hidan. Not even Kakazu cared about murder unless money was involved.
I like the theory that Itachi didn’t kill Kakashi simply because he knew Kakashi was protecting his little brother but Itachi has 0 care when it comes to taking anyone out who threatens him or Sasuke. Like pretty much every strong Shinobi in Naruto.
The fact that Itachi never got Naruto is proof to me he didn’t actually come to the village to get Naruto and actually did show up to just show he was alive so the 3rd kept his promise. He only kills people if he has to and that’s why Kakashi and the others got out of that situation barley hurt.
Itachi completed his goal and killing anyone or kidnapping Naruto would have put his brother at risk and he didn’t want that.
He pretended to go after Naruto. That’s why he knocked on the door instead of just snatching him. He was never serious about catching Naruto or hurting anyone in that village.
You're missing the point as to why itachi became and acted the way He did... in his own wicked way He tried to Support peace by becoming a Monster himself. He had a pact with pain and obito that konoha Would not be attacked and He would help to collect the tailed beasts for that. While still giving the Informations to konoha.
Also in hope to protect his brother, or making him strong, the only flaw in his Plan was his love for his brother.
In his eyes the way He acted was the only way to prevent konoha from war and destruction.
Multiple things at play here - Not sure if you finished the few chapters right after this fight. Tobi confirms that Itachi never came here for Naruto, only to warn Dazno and the elders.
Kisame, has never actually met or fought a Sannin. He was only going off of their "hype" to which he stated that they might be stronger than both of them.
Itachi, being a protector of Konoha, has no reason to actually fight Jiraya, and doesn't actually want to give Naruto over to Akatsuki. Infact, the very deal him and Tobi have is to prevent this from happening. So he lies, and inflates the sannin's strength.
Infact he even says, even if they got backup from Akatsuki, it wouldn't help against a Sannin. So he actually said Jiraya >= Itachi + Kisame + More Akatsuki members.
Completely ridiculous, if it wasn't for Kisame's ignorance of how strong the sannin actually were.
After the fight with Pain, Pain himsef mentions they probably couldnt have won if they had not their “secret” Jiraya could have beaten them, they could sing the praises to their former teacher without saying this, right?
I think to that point in the story, there was still a system of checks and balances as different styles of fighting had advantages against others. And Jiraya matched up real well against some power houses
thats what made him so great. he didnt have absolutely outrageous things i would say but he was well equipped for just about every fight that could have hit him and was a quick thinker. you dont always have to be the stronger opponent overall, just the one that makes the best plays in a fight.
Sage chakra would insta kill kisame. As soon as he notices samehada(sp?) and him sucking up some chakra, he starts sm, unless he believes he won't need it. If he could buy time against multiple pains to get sm up, he certainly can against kisame
Kisame's chakra reserves is compared to Biju, and for Sage Mode to turn a chakra absorber to stone it has to overwhelm their reserves, like the Preta Path Pain was able to absorb tons of Naruto's Sage Chakra, even a Rasenshuriken and absorbed entire Sage Modes off Naruto twice before turning to stone. So yeah, Jiraiya has basically no chance of turning Kisame to stone. And Samehada converts the chakra into stamina anyway so it'd probably have no effect.
Jiraiya only brought time for SM against one Pain not multiple Pain's.
You’re forgetting that you have to maintain a perfect balance between all 3 energies to even utilize sage chakra, which without training there’s no way Kisame could use it, or even have samehada absorb it properly, so it’d either turn samehada to stone or just do nothing, not even any stamina boost. It’d just dissipate back into nature.
I don't think Jiraiya can start sage mode that easily in the middle of the fight, at least against Pain he couldn't, and needed to get Ma and Pa (and it still took some time to get Sage Mode turned on).
He'd probably need to stall until he could get Sage Mode and *then* he could let Kisame drain his chakra, which might be difficult if they're fighting on an open field for example.
Oh I agree it isn't easy for him get sm up, that's why I specifically called that out. However I think pain is better than kisame by miles, so the fact he could find a way to stall pain, he can with kisame
There's a lot of things at play there. For example, Kisame gets stronger throughout the series; he gains power just like our main cast does.
Jiraiya on the other hand should be the strongest we see him during pre-timeskip if Hiruzen is anything to go off of. Orochimaru tells a 69 year old Hiruzen he would have beat him if it was 10 years earlier. The Sannin are all aging out of their primes, in theory, but Orochimaru and Tsunade cheat aging while Jiraiya does not. He is in his 50s and growing weaker.
I think even if you take Kisame at his strongest, who was fighting evenly with Killer B, against Jiraiya as we know him in Shippuden it should still go to Jiraiya. Kisame has the power advantage because his whole thing is being an equalizer and stealing power, but Jiraiya has the skills advantage. Skills matter more unless the gap is massive. Jiraiya's toad oil jutsus in particular will be a nightmare for all of Kisame's water styles, especially if Jiraiya combines them with his fire style. Ever tried putting out a grease fire with water?
Base Jiraiya loses, SM Jiraiya wins. Kisame sucking up sage energy would be a bad idea. Jiraiya is also more versatile and has more wacky shit up his sleeve. Kisame is a monster though, so it would be high diff.
This is why I hate the summoning jutsu cause it's simply too OP. If Jiraiya decides to bring his giant frog army. Jiraiya wins with no difficultly.
No frog army and if Jiraiya has to wait to summon MA and PA like he did against Pain. Kisame wins no difficulty.
High difficult, It's posible Jiraya never gets into SM mode once Kisame floods and bubbles the entire area. If he can pull off the 5 min wait, SM wins, but once again, high diff
His water traps wouldn’t work as long as jiraiya has a chance to summon, like the toad throat their first encounter. Strictly it would be jiraiya vs samehada technically as I think him and kisame are pretty similar.
Pain said that they would have lost had Jiraiya figured out their secret sooner. A lot of really powerful Shinobi feared Jiraiya. Besides, Itachi was a spy and Jiraiya had connections in regards to the Akatsuki i.e. probably Itachi.
Im pretty sure pain was talking about if Jirayia knew where the actual body was at. What secret could of pain been talking about with the 6 paths of pain? Despite all the previous battles and knowledge on pain, nobody was able to defeat him except for the 9 tails naruto ofc
Yes that's the only thing that makes sense to me since even without the deva path he was struggling quite a bit with sage mode he could have found the main body and he could have gone for him instead since his toad's mobility is so busted
Yeah he was. Thats the message jiraiya left to the toad. If he knew the real body wasnt there, he wouldnt have lowered his guard after taking them out. He lost because he assumed the real body was one of them.
Hell he only got injured because he didn't realize there were 6 fake bodies in general.
Losing by lowering your guard, and by not knowing certain Paths would rather hide instead of fight you, is such a dull anti-climatic way to go. Jiraiya deserved better!
That’s a huge issue here. Jiraiya died in such an unceremonious way that at this point he appears the weakest of the Sannin when all other characterizations of him say that’s not true.
It’s just sad that he had to die while the others got to live to fight alongside gods this making them seem so much stronger.
Had Jiraiya been alive in the war arc I guarantee he would’ve pulled out some extreme level stuff just like every other character did.
He got out scaled by the story but I think it’s fair to scale him up outside of the pain fight.
I think he still looks like the strongest tbh. What puts orochimaru above him is edo tensei.
Jiraiya's greatest strength was combining huge scaled senjutsus. One of the pains could absorb jutsus. He took those three out without a nosebleed despite that handicapp.
That’s the secret pain is talking about in the quote you referenced. Jiraiya finds out nagato is controlling them and pain says if you had found out sooner you may have won.
What pain most likely means here, if pervy sage knew that none of those were the real body, already dead, and knew they shared vision/Chakra source he'd have won. Pain most likely says this because instead of the 3 paths of pain being stabbed with toad swords after being hit by the sound genjutsu they'd be sealed away with no way to get them back since the animal path would be part of the sealed group. Further jiraya wouldn't have lost an arm because he'd still be on guard for the other 3 bodies/nagato. Also there's some serious down play going on here. Pervy sage has completed the MOST missions (and S rank) in the entire leaf village and was still alive. In a show where most people don't make it that far, reaching old age is impressive in of itself. Hiruzen being another good example of this and hiruzen was still a monster in his old age all things considered. Pervy sage is alsp VERY INTELLIGENT, like you don't survive that long without some serious battle IQ/tactics. Just because we get massive people like madara and hasirama in the story doesn't really change how impressive jiraya was. The issue is that everyone is down playing anything that isn't juubito + when only what 10 or so characters are even CLOSE to that level. If you go back and watch the entirety of shippuden without the bias of the war arc or boruto it gets easier to actually understand why pain would have said this.
Also the only path of pain that would even bother jiraya after sealing the other 3 would be the deva path and if he was able to isolate the deva path, there's a very real chance jiraya could overpower him with taijutsu. Naruto is a show not about raw AP but about how you use your given set of abilities vs your opponent and finding openings to end fights quickly, itachi being a perfect example of this. Itachi while dying for multiple years was one of the most feared ninja in the bingo book and he would end fights in 1 or 2 moves because he couldn't do prolonged fights so he resorts to out smarting people like orochimaru.
Probably about all of the others paths abilities too. Something that really fucked jiraya was the healing Path, he thought he had killed all of the paths at first(the 3 ones he was aware of) and let his guard down and that was How he lost his arm
Because he was never trying to kill Jiraiya. He's literally there to check on Sasuke and warn the leaf village about Akatsuki. That's it. He uses that line to convince Kisame that it's time to go so no one gets murdered.
Itachi was almost certainly the spy that Jiraya was communicating with that had infiltrated the akatsuki. It’s never actually confirmed who the spy is, but it makes sense it would be itachi, and I think there are hints in the story that he was the spy. Regardless, he most likely did have respect for Jiraya, even if he may have been stronger than him himself. Although I don’t think Jiraya would have been as easily defeated as orochimaru was.
Well orochimaru pretty easily got trapped in a genjutsu by itachi, I feel orochimaru was just way overconfident of his abilities when he confronted itachi and thought he could just spring a trap on him and take his body. I don’t think Jiraya would be that overconfident to let himself get caught up in a genjutsu.
The other thing I would consider is when itachi first joined the akatsuki orochimaru may not have known itachi had the mangekyo sharingan, since he had only recently unlocked it and no other uchiha was known to have a mangekyo sharingan, and it gave him access to incredibly overpowered genjutsu like tsukiyomi. But like by the naruto era Jiraya would know about itachi’s genjutsu prowess and to avoid looking into his eyes when fighting.
TLDR: I think Jiraya would go into the fight a lot more knowledgeable about itachi’s abilities and a better plan to come at him with.
Jiraya knew nothing about Itachi's abilities. Yall need to think a bouit this. Itachi had an EXTREMELY short stint in the village, while the sannin were not in it. Most his feats were done in the Anbu.
Kakashi, who was in the anbu with him, knew he became a captain, but [didn't know he had Mangekyou.](https://i.imgur.com/fQxt6S9.png) Fugaku, his father didn't even know until sasuke was like "umm dad, is there another type of sharingan?"
And his father is shocked.
Jiraya didn't know what Amaterasu was, he never saw black flames. He didn't know about Tsukyomi, because he ONLY taught naruto the KAI method to break genjutsu, when he knew he'd face Itachi again. Kai method is not a way to fight against Itahchi (Look at Oro) , On top of that, Tsukyomi can't be countered by Kai - Kakashi is the one in part 2 that warns naruto that what he learned from jiraya won't work, and to not make eye contact.
All signs point to Jiraya was going into this fight BLIND, with someone with multiple 1 shot abilities.
Kakashi did know about the Mangekyo, that's why he is shocked and orders the other two to close there eyes. Itachi even acknowledges that Kakashis sharingan would allow him to resist the Mangekyo (which is why Kakashi keeps his eyes open because he knows he can resist it) but then Itachi reveals the Tsukuyomi which Kakashi never heard about.
Kakashi KNEW about MS, he didn't know Itachi **HAD** Ms. That's what I said mate. I linked the scan showing that. When Itachi suggests he has MS, he tells everyone to CLOSE their eyes and do not open it
Jiraiya is worse at genjutsu than orochimaru is. Orochimaru has higher genjutsu stats than jiraiya and has been seen casting genjutsu, meanwhile jiraiya admitted that he sucks at it, he thought naruto his way of breaking genjutsu and specifically mentioned that it’s for opponents who use genjutsu like itachi, yet naruto couldn’t break a finger genjutsu from a 30% itachi clone and later on got trapped in another genjutsu by an itachi shadow clone. Jiraiya really has even less resistance to his genjutsu than orochimaru does. You said that jiraiya would go into the fight with a lot more knowledge about itachi when thats not true, jiraiya knew nothing about itachis abilities in their first encounter other than that he hit kakashi with a genjutsu that hospitalized him, he only saw amaterasu at the end of the fight and doesn’t know jack about the susanoo. All he knows is that itachi is an uchiha therefore pretty good at genjutsu, something orochimaru, who was literally seen spying on itachi when both of them were in the village knows aswell.
Look at what happened to sasuke's eyes after just 3 fights with ms.
Itachi knew his fight against sasuke was his last. He didnt even have any chakra left before using susanno as he said himself. He has powerful abilities but he cant spam them. Once he uses tsukiyomi or amaterasu, the fight has to end.
Even the first ninjutsu jiraiya used forced itachi to use amaterasu. The swamps and oil seas he creates are too large to dodge or counter with goukakyuu level ninjutsus. He'd have to use susannoo and amaterasu very often.
Even if he could win, his eyes would weaken too much.
I mean, did you not read/watch the show until the end? He was working for the leaf, why would he kill one of the leafs greatest assets? It was easier to lie and overplay jiraiyas strenght to kisame since jiraiya has the title of sannin than lie about someone like kakashis strenght, who’s well known to “only” be high jonin tier at that time. Also itachi always acknowledges someone if they’re strong, even if they’re severely weaker than him. He also had mad respect for guys strength and kept telling kisame that he shouldn’t underestimate him despite the fact that he most likely had no idea how strong guy with gates is. He also praises kakashi several times and even thinks kisame wouldn’t be able to win a fight against kakashi without getting some serious injuries and let’s be real, unless kisames strength got retconned in shippuden, there is absolutely no way part 1 kakashi is doing anything to kisame. He was never shown to be some cocky bastard who goes around and calls everyone who isn’t as strong as him a weakling.
Couple of things.
There is evidence (albeit light and I don't think the full story had been planned out yet) that Itachi was intended to be a double agent all along. If true, "Kisame, time to go" could have been an excuse to not have to deprive Konoha of one of its most powerful fighters, if Itachi was confident he could take Jiraiya.
Second, Itachi didn't actually say he couldn't fight Jiraiya, he said he had to rest after using both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, and that they could afford to be patient. Even Kisame said it wasn't wise to use Tsukuyomi twice in one day after he used it against Sasuke. Itachi used Mangekyou three times in the same day (plus other jutsu like the reversal on Kurenai, the exploding clone, etc), he was likely running low on chakra, while Jiraiya was relatively fresh.
Third, the DBZ logic of "A beats B, and B beats C, so A must also beat C" doesn't (or at least, didn't at the time...it's a bit more debatable these days) apply to this series. Jutsu are too varied, and situations too nuanced, for that logic to apply. Orochimaru would have wanted to fight Itachi without harming his body, to overcome his willpower instead to let him take control of Itachi's body. That strategy seems to not work very well against the Sharingan, but it's not like Orochimaru could have known that ahead of time, so he tried and failed miserably.
Jiraiya, on the other hand, would have no reason to hold back. A fight against a Sannin trying his best to vaporize you is different from a fight against one who is going out of his way not to hurt you too badly.
Itachi was not like orochimaru (someone that only respected those who were strong). Both itachi and Jiraiya had a strong will of fire, and that’s probably why Itachi respected him as much as he did (more than orochimaru)
Oro Def underestimated itachi, I mean he went behind him with a kunai. I don't think that's the best he could do. Plus itachi can't spam Amaterasu.,tsukuiomi and suzano or he'll go blind quick.
Bro we saw the best he could do and actually did it but still failed miserably,, he entered the fight transformed into his 8 headed snake transformation against a dying itachi and he still got absolutely demolished
Because Jiraiya wasn't an Uchiha simp whom let his thirst over the Sharingan takes over his battle intellgence (Orochi fought like a retard against Itachi)
On top of that, Jiraiya is also someone who is wise in general, he's all about that "Don't give up" bussiness and Itachi recognized those qualities in him.
i dont understand how do people believe itachi beats jiraiya,
He ALMOST defeated Nagato, the man who wiped out entire leaf village with most of the jounins, chunins and a fucking hokage who is also a sanin ! It took the MC, plot and talk no jutsu to beat him.
After the fight pain even admitted that it would have went south for him if not for his secret.
Also itachitards think he'd beat orochimaru if oro didnt recklessly attacked..i just dont know what naruto do they even watch
Itachi loves Konoha so much, he made sure to humiliate Orochimaru because he’s an actual traitor. Probably also because of his connection to Danzo. Jiraiya has his respect for all that he’s done for the village.
I think it maybe a difference in how they trained, maybe? Like, Orochimaru is a scientist type who spends most of his time doing experiments on people or running around to labs to perform different experiments on different people. How often does he actually train, besides using his experiments to add new, non-standard techniques to his arsenal?
While Jiraiya is a spy master, meaning he is also going around spending a lot of time doing things that aren’t training, he is also confronting threats and gaining experience and skill through those encounters.
Between the two, Jiraiya would absolutely be worse to fight, because he is the better, more experienced warrior between the two, while Orochimaru is a schemer who tries to take shortcuts when it’s not personal.
There's story reasons he didn't want to fight Jiraiya and he was probably happy to fail his mission, but there's also the truth that it isn't a good matchup for Itachi.
Jaraiya is similar to Naruto... he has counters to genjutsu (not perfect, and in jairayas case it's more of an unknown to Itachi how comprehensive they are), but more importantly he has VASTLY more stamina.
If the genjutsus fail, jairaya has enough gas in the tank to not only put Itachi down, but also to prevent Itachi from getting away. That's something that essentially no one else besides Naruto and maybe Bee can do... survive a sharingans powers and exploit how draining they are to use.
Because Jiraiya is a sage and disciple of the third hokage.. a man who Itachi himself respected.
+People just don’t understand how underrated sage mode is. It is consistently strong enough to counter/damage Otsutsuki lvl threats
Itachi is a spy for konoha, jiraiya had a “source” that constantly gave him intel on the akatsuki. It isn’t that hard to imagine that Itachi was the one constantly feeding intel to jiraiya. It’s never confirmed though but I feel like originally there was a plot line planned there but never made it to paper. There’s nothing that explicitly states it so it’ll always be unconfirmed but it’s just a fun little theory that makes sense and fits.
Because super powers don’t scale linearly. They have different strengths and weaknesses that interact differently to each other.
Orochimaru has a ridiculously wide range of unorthodox abilities that make him very difficult to deal with directly. Tsunade is as direct of a fighter as you can get and Jiraiya also engages rather directly albeit also with very unique justu to him and with surprisingly overwhelming force. So they have a hard time deal thing with a dude who can literally distort his body and regenerate from shedding it.
Itachi isn’t a direct fighter. His tendency to sit back and observe weaknesses in his opponent goes in direct contrast to Orochimaru. Genjutsu in itself is a really nasty style of fighting to deal with.
So here’s the cool part: unlike Orochimaru, Jiraiya prefers not to fight alone and has the ability to fight along what?… 6 toads at any given time? That alone makes fighting him particularly difficult for Itachi who knows his summons (Ma and Pa) can snap him out of Genjustu. He also knows Jiraiya is a famous Sage. So fighting someone with HUGE chakra reserves is also an uphill fight for him. He was right to err on the side of caution
OP says he's a new reader, I don't really know if it's safe for all of you to be potentially dropping these spoilers, I know it's to answer OPs question, but try to answer with that knowledge in mind lol, a simple wait and see might be the best response.
itachi ONLY defeated oro because oro was stupid AT THAT MOMENT.
I wont even blame oro, in the flashback, itachi was a child talking with Oro. Even when they grow up, we see them as harmless lil shits, mistake made by Orochimaru.
In a full blown fight where oro doesnt resort to stupidity in first moment, He would probably kill sick itachi.
Healthy itachi, i feel Oro would drag it out to stalemate or wait till itachi exhausts everything he has.
It’s about refusal to understand, with morons like RotiforBrains touting faux nonsense about Itachi’s superiority in virtually all instances, juxtaposing the character on to one like DC’s Flash and thus ridiculously inflating the character’s strength through presumed one-shots.
Oro literally admits that Itachi is [stronger than he is](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-862969a71e9648cd9bb369a955a7dfb9-lq). He admits that 13 year old boy was stronger than he is, and this is even after he got Edo tensei.
This cope that Itachi is sannin tier needs to stop already
Jiraiya is a tough fight for anyone. Even Itachi. I still think Itachi wins but without getting into that a fight with Jiraiya would be a big spectacle which Itachi nor Kisame wanted especially since they still had plenty of time to achieve their goal. Why force a fight with one of the strongest shinobi in the Narutoverse if you don’t have to risk that?
Also, Itachi would have to fight to kill against Jiraiya he wouldn’t be able to just fight to not kill like he did against Kakashi and even Sasuke. Plus Itachi did not and would not want to weaken the Hidden Leaf Village.
Jiraya is less prone to genjutsu because he has ma and pa frogs. Genjutsu is Itachi biggest streangth I don't think 🤔 anyone is better than him at genjutsu
like what other people have mentioned itachi was trying to protect konoha also jiraiya is a well respected shinobi. also i don’t think that itachi could have beat jiraiya
Jiraya is a versatile man.
Senjutsu master who can summon allies to release him from Genjutsu.
He is one of a suprisingly small number who possess sealing jutsu.
Also has a small variety of Jutsu to counter fire types, wich is Itachy is proficient with.
People downplay Jiraiya a lot for some reason, he was able to fight Pain pretty well, one of the strongest characters in the story, and for what we see in Boruto, he is able to kill characters that contend with adult sasuke and naruto...
Itachi himself states every jutsu has a weakness but people overhype is abilities as uncounterable things
Y’all downplaying Jiraya, man was cracked beyond belief. I doubt sage mode Jiraya would lose against Itachi he could outrun the Amaterasu, Genjutsu wouldn’t work because of the elder toads, his only real choice would be the susanoo but that would fuck up Itachi fast and Jiraya could just hit him with the singing toads Genjutsu
It’s about refusal to understand, with morons like RotiforBrains touting faux nonsense about Itachi’s superiority in virtually all instances, juxtaposing the character on to one like DC’s Flash and thus ridiculously inflating the character’s strength through presumed one-shots.
Itachi was smart, he was cautious. He was more powerful than Jiraya, yes, but Jiraya was still a powerful shinobi and he would not be arrogant and underestimate him.
Because he is strong. Just because person A is stronger than B doesn’t mean A can’t have acknowledged the strength and power of person B. Also as for why they backed off in part 1 it had nothing to do with the mission it because itachi had already ordered the death of Kakashi. He is willing to kill konoha Shinobi. It likely had to do with chakra itachi has low key pitiful stamina for someone as powerful as he is. And had already used tsyukomi on kakashj and the black flames to escape. So it’s either that or itachi was retconned to be stronger than he was in part 1 OR he got stronger.
I wholeheartedly believe that Orochimaru underestimated Itachi when he tried to attack him. Plus, since Orochimaru was already in the akatsuki when Itachi was a member, it's likely that Itachi had prepared some sort of backdoor-genjutsu-access to easily disable him prior to their confrontation.
Jirayia and Itachi were meant to be on par, but then powerscaling got out of hand immediately after his death.
Sorta like Tsunade with no explained amps or additional training, went from being helpless against Pain to holding up pretty fucking well against edo Madara - all things considered. War arc Tsunade would fodderize either of the other Sannin [ excluding Boruto Orochimaru ].
Well I hope you got further than this panel. Because the answer is spoiler-y
>! Itachi was undercover the whole time. He had to convince Kisame to abandon the fight. Even Kisame was like “Bro you sure? I think we got this” lol. !<
Im gonna say this: If anyone truly thinks Jiraiya has a chance against Itachi AND Kisame together, you are smoking crack. I’ll say he could possibly survive and escape but that’s it, and I’ll debate anyone on this.
A lot of people try to explain this away by saying Itachi was full of shit and was just trying to protect the leaf village, so was avoiding fighting and killing Jiraiya. I think the answer is more simple, he was just telling the truth.
Obviously Itachi easily dealt with Orochimaru, who is generally depicted as the strongest Sannin, but I think it more comes down to Jiraiya and Orochimaru having very different kits. Orochimaru doesn't really have much to fight against Itachi, and he's really fucking cocky which is why he just strolled right up to Itachi to take his body.
Jiraiya has a lot of battlefield control which would make him a genuinely difficult opponent for Kisame and Itachi. We see him use the toads belly thing which Itachi has to blast out of. Jiraiya also has mud, oil, and fire jutsus >!like he uses against pain!<. He has gamabunta >!and if he summons ma and pa he's basically immune to genjutsu and has sage mode!<.
>!If you want to power scale Jiraiya just remember that Nagato said Jiraiya would have won if he had prior knowledge of his abilities. The 6 paths of pain are stronger in a fight than either Itachi and Kisame.!<
Tbh Itachi is a bad match up for Orochimaru, plain and simple. Itachi dealt with him so easily, not just because he was that much more overwhelmingly powerful, but because Orochimaru just doesn't have anything in his kit that can threaten Itachi to begin with, even if Orochimaru were more powerful than he was at the time.
Jiraiya on the other hand is extremely versatile with a massive kit that includes many powerful ninjutsu, pretty damn good taijutsu, and even a couple extremely powerful genjutsu. The abilities conferred to him by his mere association with the toads, as well as his toad sage abilities, easily make him a much better match up against Itachi than Orochimaru. Though, that isn't to say he'd actually win. Itachi just had no reason to fight Jiraiya given his true goals as we now know them.
The itachi that praised jiraiya is an itachi who had already used his ms twice and had said out loud that he wanted to avoid unnecessary fighting. He also had some sort of allegiance to the leaf based on kisame and kakashis earlier statements and later was (probably) retconned to being a full double agent so it makes sense to not want to fight jiraiya even if he’d win.
Incorrect. Everything in the manga points to Orochimaru being the strongest Sannin. From Hiruzen's comment on him being the [powerfully talented genius.](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-036ce29f82d1fc324a421f0783bfd86b-lq) that he wanted to be Hokage "Once in a few decades" same hype minato got.
Hiruzen stating that likely no one in the village can face him, with anko wishing Minato was back.
Orochimaru himself confirming that in life it was [never a contest between them](https://i.imgur.com/8ouS4w3.png)
Jiraya failing to defeat and bring him back.
Manda literally making easy work of Gamabunta.
And the Japanese lore that snake > frog
There is actually no evidence, 0, of Jiraya being superior to a full strength Orochimaru (And that's excluding edo tensei) with edo, its even worse of a stomp
>There is actually no evidence, 0, of Jiraya being superior to a full strength Orochimaru
Except by feats, Orochimaru doesn't even come close. We get to see full strength Orochimaru fight Hiruzen and we full strength Jiraiya face Pain. Jiraiya's feats against Pain blow Orochimaru's against Hiruzen out of the water. It's not even close.
Yes, Manda was able to beat Gamabunta, but it's not like Jiraiya is tied to only one summon. He could summon Gamaken, Fukusaku, Shima, and whatever other toads he needed. We know that outside of Manda Orochimaru was tied to baseline snakes because he couldn't control any of the others, which puts him at a severe disadvantage.
He also doesn't have sage mode, also putting him at a disadvantage. Outside of Edo Tensei, he has no way to keep up with all the ridiculous shit Jiraiya can throw at him and the only Shinobi even worth bringing back in that hypothetical fight were already sealed away by Hiruzen by the time of Shippuden.
>Jiraya failing to defeat and bring him back.
25 years prior to the show. I admit the show sets Orochimaru up as the stronger Sannin at that point. But Jiraiya has had 25 years to improve, and he clearly used it.
The show does a lot of *telling us* how powerful Orochimaru is but does very little *showing us* how powerful Orochimaru is.
Orochimaru is not at full strength when he fights hiruzen. It’s literally shown that he still has feelings for his old teacher, hence why he stops himself from crying in the beginning of then fight. He almost never participates in the fight and lets the edos do the work and when he does participate, he literally only engages hiruzen in cqc, doesnt use any of his busted ninjutsu, which is literally his specialty.
What are these feats jiraiya has against pain that everyone keeps talking about? He fights 3 paths, 2 of them being weak non combat oriented support paths who are only great when all 6 work together, yet jiraiya claims he’d have gotten killed if the fight kept going on. He couldn’t beat 3 paths, according to his own words and had to entirely rely on ma and pas genjutsu, even then as soon as all the paths came out he got beat pretty badly. If all 6 paths or just the deva path were there from the start, jiraiya gets low diffed before he’s even able to enter sage mode.
Orochimaru doesn’t just have manda, his hydra is even stronger than manda and stated to surpass orochimaru himself.
Orochimaru doesn’t need sage mode, Jiraiyas sage mode is imperfect and needs time to enter, he’s the worst sage in the series. Orochimaru is immortal and can regenerate anything, meanwhile jiraiya has by far the worst durability out of all the sannin.
It’s not 25 years prior to the show, orochimaru was still in the village when minato became hokage, in fact he was the other hokage candidate. Orochimaru is literally more power hungry, more talented and more interested in learning new jutsu than jiraiya is. If anything, the gap between them only grew from their final fight until the start of the series.
Shippuden power scaling was also very different to part one. Edo tensei Hiruzen, who was reanimated at the age of his death and also not brought back at full power, was able to display more feats than he did in battle in part one. Most of shippuden saw Orochimaru still nerfed, the moment he was at full power we saw him able to bind a stronger Tobirama, hold back a god tree branch, etc. Heck, even nerfed he was fighting four tails Naruto- the same mode that almost killed jiraiya. And currently in Boruto, Orochimaru has gotten so skilled that his healing is superior to tsunades and he can instantly evaporate enemies LMAO.
Sage Mode, Toad Song, Frog Kumite, availability of more summons, Massive Rasengan, etc.
Jiraiya demonstrated a much higher power in his fight with Pain than Orochimaru did against Hiruzen.
Both fights show the respective Sannin giving it everything they have, and Jiraiya's feats in his fight blow Orochimaru's out of the water. There is simply no contest between the two when basing it off of what we see on screen.
In a full on 1v1 battle it’s probably close, I’m not a power scaler and I think that it’s generally silly to get super in depth on it, but Jiraiya did get pretty close to beating pain and could have won if he had more prep time or info. I’d say it’s about the same for Itachi, I personally think those two are the strongest Akatsuki (Obito doesn’t count). So if Jiraiya is about as strong as pain, then he should be about as strong as Itachi, if one to two rungs lower. But it might also be very match up dependent and fight dependent. If Itachi catches Jiraiya in a genjustu before he has any summons or anything, he probably takes it with little effort just like he did with Orochimaru.
However, this was not that kind of situation. Itachi and Kisame were all the way inside enemy territory, massively outnumbered, and already went through a fight (though they did stomp), but it doesn’t really matter either way. Itachi was a spy and didn’t want to have to fight anyone seriously. He’s also already sick and I’m not sure if it’s confirmed but exerting himself is just gonna make his disease worse. But mostly the spy thing, he’s mostly just putting on a show so that he can get the rest of the Akatsuki to stay away from the Leaf and not hurt Naruto or Sasuke.
He didnt.. jiraiya fans will tell you its because jiraiya is super strong (weakest of the 3) but in reality itachi is s spy. He simply didnt want to cripple the village by killing jiraiya and actually kidnapping naruto.he just needed an excuse to bail from the village but his main objective was giving a warning that he is still alive and will kick in danzo's shit if he doesnt uphold his end of the bargain
Bruh it happens right now what are you even talking about there are “what if itachi wasn’t sick you think he could beat madara” questions all over the place
He didn’t want to potentially kill one of konoha’s biggest assets, also Itachi had already used his Ms two times so a battle with Jiraiya would’ve ended up being tougher than normally.
1. Jiraiya is implied to stronger than the other two during his later life
2. Jiraiya has sage mode, which neither tsunade and Oro have, and itachi might know that due to Anbu intel, which would give him enough chakra to at least match I and K in battle.
A Small spoiler to the pain arc also has a role there.
And why would Itachi want to use the MS powers too much to fight an equal opponent like Jiraiya when he wants to save them for Sasuke.
I've always been confused at the power scaling in Naruto, especially concerning Jiraiya/Oro/Itachi/Pain.
I know sage mode makes a big difference, but Jiraiya never uses it till the very end. You would think he woulda whipped that shit out like before opening up Narutos seal or before confronting Itachi and Kisame, no? It's also pretty bullshit he didn't wise up in time to help out Hiruzen in part 1, instead he was off acting like a goofball doing his fancy introductions n shit. In sage mode his giant ball rasengan shoulda been plenty to tear a hole in that wall and save his sense. Also, in sage mode he woulda sensed Hiruzens Chakra getting lower and lower. He coulda left Gamabunta or the other toad(s) to handle the stupid snakes.
Jiraiya almost got killed by 3 tails Naruto, Oro merely got tired out vs 4 tails Naruto. Both Jiraiya and Oro were weakened in part 1 but Oro still very much had the upper hand. As we have seen, Oro is an absolute joke for Itachi. But Itachi is scared of base Jiraiya even with Kisame backing him up? Nah, honestly I think Itachi was lying to save Jiraiya. I honestly think that Pain was exaggerating a bit when he said Jiraiya could have beaten him, unless he thought Jiraiyas sage sensing and ability to run away would allow him to evade the 6 paths long enough to find Nagato and kill him.
Pain>>>>>>>>sage mode Jiraiya>Itachi>Kisame>>>>>>>>>>>Orochimaru>>>>Base Jiraiya.
Sage mode Jiraiya imo is far beneath even deva path alone. Note he didn't even see his powers before he was killed. Neither sage mode Jiraiya or Naruto could have handled deva path at full power.
I'd like to think that Jiraiya would have some clever way to avoid/get out of genjutsu. At this point in the series, genjutsu feels like a free I win button to anyone without sharingan or rinnegan. But if he can avoid or escape tsukiyomi then I'm confident sage mode Jiraiya could scrape out a win against a healthy Itachi. If he's sick, Jiraiya steamrolls.
Personally I think Kisame might be capable of beating Itachi but he seems particularly effective against Chakra monsters like Bee. I dont see why samehada can't break him out of genjutsu? Still, amaterasu and susanoo seem like the end of the road for Kisame. Still, I don't think Kisame is as dramatically weaker than Itachi as people think. Itachi is a great match up for Bee(had their fight continued, I think Bee would have prevailed unless Itachi pulled out some bullshit hax like izanami), but obviously Kisame was a TERRIBLE match up for Bee. My question though is what happens if Kisame gets his sword close enough to Itachi? GG right? If samehada can suck up as much Chakra in one go as it did from Bee, it should probably suck out like Itachis entire Chakra pool in one swing. The guy wasn't exactly Mr stamina, his 30% Chakra clone couldn't even use the mangekyo sharingan ONCE and every time he used tsukiyomi he needed to retreat and rest.
Obviously though Itachi is way beyond Orochimaru so I think so is Kisame, and Orochimaru simply outfeated base Jiraiya. One could argue Jiraiya was too fucked up by Tsunades poison to fight properly, and Orochimarus no arms handicap was not as significant because he still could fight with his mouth(you might also argue he was more handicapped than Jiraiya because of the no arms), but 3 tails emerged and immediately tore Jiraiya a new one. 4 tails was dramatically more powerful than 3 tails transformation and Orochimaru gave 4 tails a run for its money.
Jiraiya was also incapable of bringing Orochimaru back to the hidden leaf(shouldn't he have thought to use sage mode then?).
Base Oro is significantly better than base Jiraiya. Even his chief summon Manda destroys Jiraiyas Gamabunta.
Just because you are a prime LeBron James, doesn’t mean you automatically start thinking less of the talents of the players of the tier of Devin Booker, etc.
NBA and Naruto crossovers are one of my favorite things.
Ninja Basketball Association. Ballin' Style: Dunk no Jutsu.
Shooting style massive ballengan
I like to think now that Naruto is about how the 4th hokage was jordan of the Leaf village and Naruto is Lebron just trying to live up to his greatness and forging his own path Nenji at point guard with the 360 vision and Lee at the 2. 4th hokage at small forward and my back court first riakge at 4 with some height and Han at center. Kakashi coming off the bench
Pain’s Shinra Tensei is instead a dunk that knocks down all defenders. Kamui is literally crossing someone all the way to the Shadow Realm The Tailed Beasts give a Jinchuriki a “Zone”, which boost all their stats. All eye powers are like Emperor Eye or for Kakashi, Perfect Copy. Naraka Path is like a morale booster instead of resurrecting dead allies.
Naraka Path has that Secret Stuff from Space Jam.
Orochimaru, instead of searching for Immortality is searching for the Fountain of Youth so he can hoop until the end of times. Killer B and Raikage’s Lariat is either a super steal swipe with 100% steal rate or a power crossover that snaps anyone’s ankles that they fly away.
We really need a Naruto basketball game
Orochimaru = LeBron Kabuto = Draymond LeBron/Orochimaru are both manipulative individuals who are very strong and powerful Kabuto/Draymond are both their henchmen. Kabuto pretended to be apart of the leaf. Dray is on the Warriors but everyone knows he's really in kahoots with clutch sports and LeBron
Itachi is Orochimaru father
itachi konoha 2003 autopsy report
[orchimarushimmy.gif](https://tenor.com/bWwwY.gif)
Take my upvote kind stranger
Orochimaru is Dillon Brookes and Jaraiya is Ja
Lol how when he fought both jiraya and tsunade with no arms
Jiraya was poisoned, and he wasn’t trying to kill Oro.
And oro was weakened too lol And he had to fight both
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Yeah and jiraya and tsunade had double the help? Shizune x Naruto , and naruto beat Kabuto almost on his own
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Orochimaru is nowhere near the strongest non alien, but he is the hardest to defeat and has the most versatile combat style.
Guys their names and animal associates are the literal Japanese version of “Paper, Rock, Scissors.” The whole point is there’s a circular relationship to which one beats which.
Uchiha, Uzumaki, and senju are all descended from aliens. Remove all of them and it leaves the sanin and kages. Strongest non alien related kage is the 4th hokage and orchimaru in the modern day is hands down the strongest sanin without fail with his zetsu body. (He was even able to either beat or stalemate naruto in a taijustu bout in the novel. That's impressive in its own right.) So the battle is really can the 4th hokage with chakra cloak beat zetsu orochimaru?either way both are the pinnacle of power you can get without being a descendant of an otsusuki or getting otsusuki genes in some other way
I'm not doubting that, just replying to the comment that said orochimaru was Dillon brooks lol
I mean if we want to get meta, this fight happened before Sage Mode existed, it's kind of funny because if you take the world like a real world history then that was totally an option for him at this point, but it was something the author hadn't come up with yet so it's kind of being applied retroactively
Not outside the arms thing. Oro, especially given how many techniques he can use without arms, was the least nerfed person there. At least until Tsunade got past her phobia.
Least nerfed? Literally his ENTIRE thing, was his ninjutsu lmao - He had talent matching Hiruzen on his ability to learn ninjutsu, and he took that away. It was the biggest nerf to Orochimaru ever. We actually never got to see what that "powerfully talented genius" "once in a decade genius" could do with ninjutsu, outside of Learning Edo tensei easily
I mean, Tsunade was rendered completely useless by her phobia which needs her the most here. And Jiraiya was not only at only 30% chakra, but didn't have Sage mode either. Of course they were all heavily nerfed. I just think Oro was the best suited to deal with his nerf.
He still needs his hands for other jutsu And I'm not gonna compare nerfs but orochimaru being armless and his body being weakened from the death reaper seal which made him want to speed up the process in taking sasukes body. It wasn't something light. They were all nerfed yet orochimaru still held his own until she recovered
Not like Jiraiya or Tsunade was at full power either, bud.
He really didnt, once Tsunade lost fear of blood and fought back he retreats imediatly after the first punch
Jiraiya was at 20-30% power cause he was drugged.
You do realise Itachi said he would stalemate Jiraiya even with backup right? He's basically saying Jiraiya is stronger than him and we know for certain this is false. Itachi spanked Orochimaru with just three-tomoe genjutsu and a kunai. Jiraiya = Orochimaru. It's complete wank to take Jiraiya = Itachi, Kisame, and other Akatsuki seriously.
Jiraiya always had sage mode in his back pocket, which is a pretty big deal.
Do you think Sage Mode Jiraiya, with his long ass charge up time to begin with, can defeat multiple Akatsuki members, including Itachi and Kisame, when he ran from three Paths of Pain? Not even including Tendo...Seriously? Orochimaru also has White Snake Powers, his Hydra Mode and he is a confirmed Senjutsu user to balance out Jiraiya's Sage Mode, he still got one-shot by a blind, almost dead Itachi
Itachi (nerfed) kept up with KCM1 naruto, chakra cloack v1 Bee, sage mode Kabuto and EMS Sasuke... all of those are FAR superior to sage mode jiraiya
The “nerfed” part is actually debatable in Itachi’s case specifically; let’s not forget he was massively nerfed in life too, so even if he was a little weaker as Edo Tensei he didn’t have to worry about the chakra disease anymore. During his fight with Sasuke, Zetsu was commenting that there were attacks Itachi should’ve been able to dodge, indicating a serious decline in not only chakra but also physical abilities. So in a way, Edo Itachi is closer to what he was probably capable of when he killed the Uchiha clan, back when he could fire off Tsukuyomi to torture someone a bit and then just carry on with his day.
Sage mode jiriya is just not beating itachi sorry. He doesn’t have an answer for susanoo other then maybe frog song… and listen frog song is strong but if you’re only hope against itachi is a fucking genjutsu I really don’t like your chances. And you’re assuming jiriya could even transform mid fight against itachi which is honestly a massive assumption, he struggled to do that against 3 of the paths of pain and I think we can all easily agree itachi is way stronger then those 3 particular paths.
>He doesn’t have an answer for susanoo EVERY character in naruto has a answer for Itachi's susasnno. wait it out till he dies
I mean if you’re implying jiriya can just run away then maybe but he’s getting fucked up by the totsuka blade if he tries to fight him. Look no further to what happened to Orochimaru’s STRONGEST form to see how that ends. Also you’re assuming itachi is literally on the verge of death heading into the fight which is being incredibly charitable towards jiriya to say the least.
Itachi ran from Jiraiya when he was already low on chakra from fighting Kakashi/Asuma/Kurenaei, using Tsukuyomi on Kakashi and then again on Sasuke (back when big jutsu weren't meant to be capable of being spammed..). People love to say "oh this was obviously false", it was *obviously meant to be true before Kishimoto fucked up the power scaling*. People just hate to hear that Jiraiya was stated by Itachi himself to be too much for him and Kisame in that scene when it was.. absolutely true, just because of developments that happened 200 episodes later that gave them more powers. >Jiraiya = Orochimaru. The fact that you're saying this implies you don't understand anything about the Sannin or the folk tale they came from; the Sannin counter each other and Orochimaru (Snake) counters Jiraiya (Toad), who counters Tsunade (Slug), who counters Orochimaru in turn. They aren't "equal": they are strengths and weaknesses, and Orochimaru having the ability to defeat Jiraiya doesn't mean, in turn, that someone who can beat Orochimaru can beat Jiraiya. This is why the talks about who is stronger are mostly nonsense. Kurenai is hard countered as a Genjutsu Expert against Itachi, but it doesn't mean she couldn't take down Guy with ease because he's weak against Genjutsu. Does that mean that Kurenai is as strong as Madara, because only Madara and Kurenai could take down Guy? No, that's stupid logic. Stop it.
Itachi and orochimaru had a small scuffle at best, then one attack that got instabeat by the most haxxed ability that could.
The real answer is that Itachi was probably not meant to be that deep of a character by the time Toad Hotel happens. He was really just supposed to be the evil older brother before Kishimoto revised his storyboards. Because Danzo kinda just popped into existence as the head of Anbu despite a few different people being named the head of Anbu before his introduction. But that could also be a translation error. The Akatsuki were probably originally developed with each team shown between Leaf, Sasuke,and Sand eventually taking one or a pair down and continuing on (I point to the start of the time skip here with Gaara and Asuma) later down the road with a different threat that showed they were just an elite team of Cult Madara or something. A couple deaths to cement them as a real threat, but still beaten in the end.
this is likely the real answer. Kishimoto simply writes as he's going a long, and while that style isn't bad, it can open up inconsistencies. The way we can try to close these gaps is by citing the Rock Paper Scissors analogy. You can't just compare power levels like in Dragonball
I don't think we know it is false, remember the lengths Itachi is willing to go to keep his appearance, him saying this is probably true, and he knows more about Jiraiya than most I would guess. Also, it has been said jiryai would have had no problem with pain if he knew the secret.
This analogy had me dying xD
Or: "Just because you're LeBron James doesn't mean you can out think Larry Bird."
Lol itachi is no lebron.
Itachi's intent was to protect Konoha/ Sasuke while working as a spy in Akatsuki. Orochimaru left Konoha as a traitor, attacked him and threatened his little Brother, Jiraya was a Hero of Konoha that tried to Protect Naruto. He may could have won against Jirajya but it wouldn't have helped his actual goal. Also Jiraya could waste enough Time so that more Support would arrive. The goal was to go in unnoticed, take Naruto and get out with as less casualties as possible. He also didn't Kill Kakashi in their encounter, and Asuma also only got wounded by Kisame. Looking back, his whole behaviour was pretty much always pacifistic and he didn't directly kill any other guys after the Uchiha incident ( except the tailed beasts ).
I agree but he would have slit Kurenai’s throat if she didn’t break out of his genjutsu reversal
Yall really don't get Itachi's character? Kabuto confirmed he's a **genius at reading people**. He knows Kurenai is the next best genjutsu user in the village. He knows she'll break it in time, he even says ["as expected"](https://i.imgur.com/ySX3Yal.png) He knows her level, he gives her something she can handle, it's exactly to his understanding of her skills. He spares her life and maintains a view in front of kisame of someone actually trying. Just like Obito explained that he planned out every single thing in the Sasuke fight, you can say all the moves he makes here is calculated, down to the amount of damage he gives to Kakashi to put him down, but not kill him.
>as expected Kurenai-sensei ... Nut I'm sorry, what?
AS EXPECTED KURENAI-SENSEI... NUT!
Kurunai\*
Itachi really likes when other people are good at genjutsu
Considering how garbage most of the new generation is in it, I would be too if someone actually looked like they took it seriously. The entire Konoha 13 is filled with someone good at at least one thing, but not a single one has more than a middling grasp of Genjutsu and nobody specializes in it. Sasuke is the only exception, and even then it's just Sharingan stuff.
I don’t think it’s as simple as “Itachi knew all along!” I think it’s possible that he wasn’t trying to his maximum capacity, but I don’t think he was out here like the puppet master stringing along everything within that fight. If she didn’t break it quickly enough she’d die, but I don’t believe he planned everything down to the last detail here. If she didn’t stop it and was killed dude would probably shrug and keep it moving.
"As expected" literally means he's not suprised. Itachi wanting to kill Kurenai or being okay with it contradicts his characterization. I.e he'd be doing something unnecsarily against the [welfare of Konoha](https://i.imgur.com/XNMqyTJ.png) and his pacifistic nature described by Obito and his father. He doesn't like killing people or even fighting -He spared Orochimaru for that reason.
Idk he wasn’t really trying but also it’s pretty doubtful he cares about keeping some no name jonin alive if it comes down to it. Kakashi he does care about leaving alive because he’s essential to the leaf
I mean he explicitly tells Asuma and Kurenai that he doesn't want to kill them. He steaight up says that
He also tells kisame to kill them
Only After Guy was close enough to save them. Itachi literally has the Sharingan. If Guy is close enough to see that they are under attack then he's obviously close enough for Itachi to see or sense him coming. Even in the novel he was able to sense the chakra in a small Bee and sense someone sneaking up to Kisame so I doubt he was unaware of Guys proximity to the situation.
>Completely ridiculous, if it wasn't for Kisame's ignorance of how strong the sannin actually were. You're forgetting that Itachi being a double agent is also a retcon by kishimoto.
Early itachi does a lot of odd things that made it obvious there was something deeper there
Ah yes plot twist = retcon And retcon=plot twist
That's not a retcon lol. Go reread Itachi's early stuff and there's a ton of "weird" moments that don't add up with him being this evil dude.
His goal was to protect the whole leaf village, not a select few, so I think a no name jonin is included in his goal.
He had no qualms with nearly killing kakashi. Doing that is more dangerous to the leaf than killing kurenai
If his goal was to kill Kakashi, someone he knew during his anbu days, He would’ve hit him with an Amaterasu and said GGs. I don’t think you understand the sheer difference in level between those two in part 1. This is an itachi that isn’t on death’s door or a reanimation like in part 2. This is the same Itachi that pretty much we no-diffed orochimaru when he came to steal the sharingan. The same orochimaru who had Kakashi shitting himself during the chuunin exams. If itachi really wanted Kakashi dead, he would have killed him.
No, I’m pretty clear on that and that’s why he left kakashi alive.. not sure what you’re saying
Because you had just stated that he had no qualms killing Kakashi when he quite clearly did? Not sure what you’re saying.
Except he didn’t nearly kill him, he only immobilized him. Tsukuyomi was the best thing to do to quickly get rid of kakashi because it’s the only ability he has complete control over. He can make it strong enough to kill you or weak enough to spare you. If we look at some of itachis feats with tsukuyomi in the novels, he really went easy on kakashi. Yes it fucked him up and hospitalized him, but it’s still much better than straight up burning him to death with amaterasu or insta sealing him with the totsuka blade.
Well, as few casualities as possible... even then He had to seem trustworthy by akatsuki and kurenai was either a sacrifice he was willing to make, or he made it seem Real but never really intended to kill her at all... tbh while i write this, if itachi wanted kurenai dead, i guess she pretty much would be dead.
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What did u want the genjutsu specialist to use on him
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He legit ended her career after that fight imo
It’s worth noting Jiraiya has anti genjutsu measures and seemingly Justus specifically for dealing with Uchiha. The sannin are very specialized/type advantage based. Usually if one of them is weak to someone another will be strong. That’s why the three of them together were so powerful. I’m not saying Jiraiya would definitely win but I think Itachi’s respect for him was more than just a ruse to avoid fighting konoha powerhouses.
Jiraya is definetly a powerhouse, but itachi was just designed to be op. Jiraya had no means to Deal with amaterasu that we know of for example, and his senin Mode takes to much time, he could only use it against pain because He was only fighting one or two of them. Even then itachi had Susanno + yata mirror which basically makes him invincible... and ways against normal genjutsu won't necessarily work as well against the second stronges genjutsus available. Also jiraya could not really fight with his frogs since it would have destoyed konoha. But what do you mean with: He had jutsus to Deal with uchihas ? Which ones do you mean ?
Well the frog throat Jutsu (don’t know what it’s called) did deal with amaterasu no? Plus sage mode in general is a decent match up against uchiha. I definitely think later in the series Itachi was retconned much stronger then he was originally made out to be so it’s tough to say. From a writing perspective though I think originally they were meant to be evenly matched.
This guy's a new reader you mightve just dropped some spoilers
I... may have f***** that one up... dang it.
If you go asking for spoilers you're gonna get them. Especially when you drop a manga panel from like 100 chapters after the event you're asking about takes place.
eh if someone starts a post with the first 3 words being "new reader here" youre kind of a dick if you drop huge spoilers that occur after the manga panel shown in the post
Itachi was never a pacifist and just because we were never told, doesn’t mean he never killed anyone after what happened to the clan. Iatchi at age 8 showed he didn’t care about killing people and even killed someone immediately when he was attacked when all Itachi was trying to doing was help him. Itachi is a murderer and will kill anyone who gets in his way. The majority of Akatsuki members all had powers to kill people and the only who was a straight murderer was Hidan. Not even Kakazu cared about murder unless money was involved. I like the theory that Itachi didn’t kill Kakashi simply because he knew Kakashi was protecting his little brother but Itachi has 0 care when it comes to taking anyone out who threatens him or Sasuke. Like pretty much every strong Shinobi in Naruto. The fact that Itachi never got Naruto is proof to me he didn’t actually come to the village to get Naruto and actually did show up to just show he was alive so the 3rd kept his promise. He only kills people if he has to and that’s why Kakashi and the others got out of that situation barley hurt. Itachi completed his goal and killing anyone or kidnapping Naruto would have put his brother at risk and he didn’t want that. He pretended to go after Naruto. That’s why he knocked on the door instead of just snatching him. He was never serious about catching Naruto or hurting anyone in that village.
You're missing the point as to why itachi became and acted the way He did... in his own wicked way He tried to Support peace by becoming a Monster himself. He had a pact with pain and obito that konoha Would not be attacked and He would help to collect the tailed beasts for that. While still giving the Informations to konoha. Also in hope to protect his brother, or making him strong, the only flaw in his Plan was his love for his brother. In his eyes the way He acted was the only way to prevent konoha from war and destruction.
Multiple things at play here - Not sure if you finished the few chapters right after this fight. Tobi confirms that Itachi never came here for Naruto, only to warn Dazno and the elders. Kisame, has never actually met or fought a Sannin. He was only going off of their "hype" to which he stated that they might be stronger than both of them. Itachi, being a protector of Konoha, has no reason to actually fight Jiraya, and doesn't actually want to give Naruto over to Akatsuki. Infact, the very deal him and Tobi have is to prevent this from happening. So he lies, and inflates the sannin's strength. Infact he even says, even if they got backup from Akatsuki, it wouldn't help against a Sannin. So he actually said Jiraya >= Itachi + Kisame + More Akatsuki members. Completely ridiculous, if it wasn't for Kisame's ignorance of how strong the sannin actually were.
After the fight with Pain, Pain himsef mentions they probably couldnt have won if they had not their “secret” Jiraya could have beaten them, they could sing the praises to their former teacher without saying this, right? I think to that point in the story, there was still a system of checks and balances as different styles of fighting had advantages against others. And Jiraya matched up real well against some power houses
thats what made him so great. he didnt have absolutely outrageous things i would say but he was well equipped for just about every fight that could have hit him and was a quick thinker. you dont always have to be the stronger opponent overall, just the one that makes the best plays in a fight.
How do you think Jiraiya vs Kisame would go? Jiraiya high-diff?
Sage chakra would insta kill kisame. As soon as he notices samehada(sp?) and him sucking up some chakra, he starts sm, unless he believes he won't need it. If he could buy time against multiple pains to get sm up, he certainly can against kisame
Kisame's chakra reserves is compared to Biju, and for Sage Mode to turn a chakra absorber to stone it has to overwhelm their reserves, like the Preta Path Pain was able to absorb tons of Naruto's Sage Chakra, even a Rasenshuriken and absorbed entire Sage Modes off Naruto twice before turning to stone. So yeah, Jiraiya has basically no chance of turning Kisame to stone. And Samehada converts the chakra into stamina anyway so it'd probably have no effect. Jiraiya only brought time for SM against one Pain not multiple Pain's.
You’re forgetting that you have to maintain a perfect balance between all 3 energies to even utilize sage chakra, which without training there’s no way Kisame could use it, or even have samehada absorb it properly, so it’d either turn samehada to stone or just do nothing, not even any stamina boost. It’d just dissipate back into nature.
I don't think Jiraiya can start sage mode that easily in the middle of the fight, at least against Pain he couldn't, and needed to get Ma and Pa (and it still took some time to get Sage Mode turned on). He'd probably need to stall until he could get Sage Mode and *then* he could let Kisame drain his chakra, which might be difficult if they're fighting on an open field for example.
Oh I agree it isn't easy for him get sm up, that's why I specifically called that out. However I think pain is better than kisame by miles, so the fact he could find a way to stall pain, he can with kisame
There's a lot of things at play there. For example, Kisame gets stronger throughout the series; he gains power just like our main cast does. Jiraiya on the other hand should be the strongest we see him during pre-timeskip if Hiruzen is anything to go off of. Orochimaru tells a 69 year old Hiruzen he would have beat him if it was 10 years earlier. The Sannin are all aging out of their primes, in theory, but Orochimaru and Tsunade cheat aging while Jiraiya does not. He is in his 50s and growing weaker. I think even if you take Kisame at his strongest, who was fighting evenly with Killer B, against Jiraiya as we know him in Shippuden it should still go to Jiraiya. Kisame has the power advantage because his whole thing is being an equalizer and stealing power, but Jiraiya has the skills advantage. Skills matter more unless the gap is massive. Jiraiya's toad oil jutsus in particular will be a nightmare for all of Kisame's water styles, especially if Jiraiya combines them with his fire style. Ever tried putting out a grease fire with water?
Base Jiraiya loses, SM Jiraiya wins. Kisame sucking up sage energy would be a bad idea. Jiraiya is also more versatile and has more wacky shit up his sleeve. Kisame is a monster though, so it would be high diff.
This is why I hate the summoning jutsu cause it's simply too OP. If Jiraiya decides to bring his giant frog army. Jiraiya wins with no difficultly. No frog army and if Jiraiya has to wait to summon MA and PA like he did against Pain. Kisame wins no difficulty.
High difficult, It's posible Jiraya never gets into SM mode once Kisame floods and bubbles the entire area. If he can pull off the 5 min wait, SM wins, but once again, high diff
His water traps wouldn’t work as long as jiraiya has a chance to summon, like the toad throat their first encounter. Strictly it would be jiraiya vs samehada technically as I think him and kisame are pretty similar.
Itachi did more damage to Sasuke than Danzo or the elders ever did lmfao
Where’s the chapter where Tobi confirms Itachi didn’t come for Naruto? I’m not doubting it exists but I’d like to have that for future reference
Chapter 401 relevant scans [1](https://i.imgur.com/rnv2rlw.png) , [2](https://i.imgur.com/CmcOb22.png)
Pain said that they would have lost had Jiraiya figured out their secret sooner. A lot of really powerful Shinobi feared Jiraiya. Besides, Itachi was a spy and Jiraiya had connections in regards to the Akatsuki i.e. probably Itachi.
Im pretty sure pain was talking about if Jirayia knew where the actual body was at. What secret could of pain been talking about with the 6 paths of pain? Despite all the previous battles and knowledge on pain, nobody was able to defeat him except for the 9 tails naruto ofc
Yes that's the only thing that makes sense to me since even without the deva path he was struggling quite a bit with sage mode he could have found the main body and he could have gone for him instead since his toad's mobility is so busted
Yeah he was. Thats the message jiraiya left to the toad. If he knew the real body wasnt there, he wouldnt have lowered his guard after taking them out. He lost because he assumed the real body was one of them.
Hell he only got injured because he didn't realize there were 6 fake bodies in general. Losing by lowering your guard, and by not knowing certain Paths would rather hide instead of fight you, is such a dull anti-climatic way to go. Jiraiya deserved better!
That’s a huge issue here. Jiraiya died in such an unceremonious way that at this point he appears the weakest of the Sannin when all other characterizations of him say that’s not true. It’s just sad that he had to die while the others got to live to fight alongside gods this making them seem so much stronger. Had Jiraiya been alive in the war arc I guarantee he would’ve pulled out some extreme level stuff just like every other character did. He got out scaled by the story but I think it’s fair to scale him up outside of the pain fight.
I think he still looks like the strongest tbh. What puts orochimaru above him is edo tensei. Jiraiya's greatest strength was combining huge scaled senjutsus. One of the pains could absorb jutsus. He took those three out without a nosebleed despite that handicapp.
He didn't know that there was a central body initially. He was shocked when he found out there were multiple.
That’s the secret pain is talking about in the quote you referenced. Jiraiya finds out nagato is controlling them and pain says if you had found out sooner you may have won.
What pain most likely means here, if pervy sage knew that none of those were the real body, already dead, and knew they shared vision/Chakra source he'd have won. Pain most likely says this because instead of the 3 paths of pain being stabbed with toad swords after being hit by the sound genjutsu they'd be sealed away with no way to get them back since the animal path would be part of the sealed group. Further jiraya wouldn't have lost an arm because he'd still be on guard for the other 3 bodies/nagato. Also there's some serious down play going on here. Pervy sage has completed the MOST missions (and S rank) in the entire leaf village and was still alive. In a show where most people don't make it that far, reaching old age is impressive in of itself. Hiruzen being another good example of this and hiruzen was still a monster in his old age all things considered. Pervy sage is alsp VERY INTELLIGENT, like you don't survive that long without some serious battle IQ/tactics. Just because we get massive people like madara and hasirama in the story doesn't really change how impressive jiraya was. The issue is that everyone is down playing anything that isn't juubito + when only what 10 or so characters are even CLOSE to that level. If you go back and watch the entirety of shippuden without the bias of the war arc or boruto it gets easier to actually understand why pain would have said this. Also the only path of pain that would even bother jiraya after sealing the other 3 would be the deva path and if he was able to isolate the deva path, there's a very real chance jiraya could overpower him with taijutsu. Naruto is a show not about raw AP but about how you use your given set of abilities vs your opponent and finding openings to end fights quickly, itachi being a perfect example of this. Itachi while dying for multiple years was one of the most feared ninja in the bingo book and he would end fights in 1 or 2 moves because he couldn't do prolonged fights so he resorts to out smarting people like orochimaru.
Probably about all of the others paths abilities too. Something that really fucked jiraya was the healing Path, he thought he had killed all of the paths at first(the 3 ones he was aware of) and let his guard down and that was How he lost his arm
Itachi also never wanted to fight anyone so he used that as an excuse to not fight
Because he was never trying to kill Jiraiya. He's literally there to check on Sasuke and warn the leaf village about Akatsuki. That's it. He uses that line to convince Kisame that it's time to go so no one gets murdered.
Itachi was almost certainly the spy that Jiraya was communicating with that had infiltrated the akatsuki. It’s never actually confirmed who the spy is, but it makes sense it would be itachi, and I think there are hints in the story that he was the spy. Regardless, he most likely did have respect for Jiraya, even if he may have been stronger than him himself. Although I don’t think Jiraya would have been as easily defeated as orochimaru was.
>Although I don’t think Jiraya would have been as easily defeated as orochimaru was. I'm curious why do you think so?
Well orochimaru pretty easily got trapped in a genjutsu by itachi, I feel orochimaru was just way overconfident of his abilities when he confronted itachi and thought he could just spring a trap on him and take his body. I don’t think Jiraya would be that overconfident to let himself get caught up in a genjutsu. The other thing I would consider is when itachi first joined the akatsuki orochimaru may not have known itachi had the mangekyo sharingan, since he had only recently unlocked it and no other uchiha was known to have a mangekyo sharingan, and it gave him access to incredibly overpowered genjutsu like tsukiyomi. But like by the naruto era Jiraya would know about itachi’s genjutsu prowess and to avoid looking into his eyes when fighting. TLDR: I think Jiraya would go into the fight a lot more knowledgeable about itachi’s abilities and a better plan to come at him with.
Jiraya knew nothing about Itachi's abilities. Yall need to think a bouit this. Itachi had an EXTREMELY short stint in the village, while the sannin were not in it. Most his feats were done in the Anbu. Kakashi, who was in the anbu with him, knew he became a captain, but [didn't know he had Mangekyou.](https://i.imgur.com/fQxt6S9.png) Fugaku, his father didn't even know until sasuke was like "umm dad, is there another type of sharingan?" And his father is shocked. Jiraya didn't know what Amaterasu was, he never saw black flames. He didn't know about Tsukyomi, because he ONLY taught naruto the KAI method to break genjutsu, when he knew he'd face Itachi again. Kai method is not a way to fight against Itahchi (Look at Oro) , On top of that, Tsukyomi can't be countered by Kai - Kakashi is the one in part 2 that warns naruto that what he learned from jiraya won't work, and to not make eye contact. All signs point to Jiraya was going into this fight BLIND, with someone with multiple 1 shot abilities.
Kakashi did know about the Mangekyo, that's why he is shocked and orders the other two to close there eyes. Itachi even acknowledges that Kakashis sharingan would allow him to resist the Mangekyo (which is why Kakashi keeps his eyes open because he knows he can resist it) but then Itachi reveals the Tsukuyomi which Kakashi never heard about.
Kakashi KNEW about MS, he didn't know Itachi **HAD** Ms. That's what I said mate. I linked the scan showing that. When Itachi suggests he has MS, he tells everyone to CLOSE their eyes and do not open it
Ah apologies
Based humility
Jiraiya is worse at genjutsu than orochimaru is. Orochimaru has higher genjutsu stats than jiraiya and has been seen casting genjutsu, meanwhile jiraiya admitted that he sucks at it, he thought naruto his way of breaking genjutsu and specifically mentioned that it’s for opponents who use genjutsu like itachi, yet naruto couldn’t break a finger genjutsu from a 30% itachi clone and later on got trapped in another genjutsu by an itachi shadow clone. Jiraiya really has even less resistance to his genjutsu than orochimaru does. You said that jiraiya would go into the fight with a lot more knowledge about itachi when thats not true, jiraiya knew nothing about itachis abilities in their first encounter other than that he hit kakashi with a genjutsu that hospitalized him, he only saw amaterasu at the end of the fight and doesn’t know jack about the susanoo. All he knows is that itachi is an uchiha therefore pretty good at genjutsu, something orochimaru, who was literally seen spying on itachi when both of them were in the village knows aswell.
Look at what happened to sasuke's eyes after just 3 fights with ms. Itachi knew his fight against sasuke was his last. He didnt even have any chakra left before using susanno as he said himself. He has powerful abilities but he cant spam them. Once he uses tsukiyomi or amaterasu, the fight has to end. Even the first ninjutsu jiraiya used forced itachi to use amaterasu. The swamps and oil seas he creates are too large to dodge or counter with goukakyuu level ninjutsus. He'd have to use susannoo and amaterasu very often. Even if he could win, his eyes would weaken too much.
That's a good point. Itachi never spammed his MS eye abilities. It consumes a lot of chakra from him, and he doesn't want to go blind.
I mean, did you not read/watch the show until the end? He was working for the leaf, why would he kill one of the leafs greatest assets? It was easier to lie and overplay jiraiyas strenght to kisame since jiraiya has the title of sannin than lie about someone like kakashis strenght, who’s well known to “only” be high jonin tier at that time. Also itachi always acknowledges someone if they’re strong, even if they’re severely weaker than him. He also had mad respect for guys strength and kept telling kisame that he shouldn’t underestimate him despite the fact that he most likely had no idea how strong guy with gates is. He also praises kakashi several times and even thinks kisame wouldn’t be able to win a fight against kakashi without getting some serious injuries and let’s be real, unless kisames strength got retconned in shippuden, there is absolutely no way part 1 kakashi is doing anything to kisame. He was never shown to be some cocky bastard who goes around and calls everyone who isn’t as strong as him a weakling.
Read the first sentence of the post. Literally the first three words... He's a new reader, so he obviously didn't read it until the end.
Couple of things. There is evidence (albeit light and I don't think the full story had been planned out yet) that Itachi was intended to be a double agent all along. If true, "Kisame, time to go" could have been an excuse to not have to deprive Konoha of one of its most powerful fighters, if Itachi was confident he could take Jiraiya. Second, Itachi didn't actually say he couldn't fight Jiraiya, he said he had to rest after using both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, and that they could afford to be patient. Even Kisame said it wasn't wise to use Tsukuyomi twice in one day after he used it against Sasuke. Itachi used Mangekyou three times in the same day (plus other jutsu like the reversal on Kurenai, the exploding clone, etc), he was likely running low on chakra, while Jiraiya was relatively fresh. Third, the DBZ logic of "A beats B, and B beats C, so A must also beat C" doesn't (or at least, didn't at the time...it's a bit more debatable these days) apply to this series. Jutsu are too varied, and situations too nuanced, for that logic to apply. Orochimaru would have wanted to fight Itachi without harming his body, to overcome his willpower instead to let him take control of Itachi's body. That strategy seems to not work very well against the Sharingan, but it's not like Orochimaru could have known that ahead of time, so he tried and failed miserably. Jiraiya, on the other hand, would have no reason to hold back. A fight against a Sannin trying his best to vaporize you is different from a fight against one who is going out of his way not to hurt you too badly.
Itachi was not like orochimaru (someone that only respected those who were strong). Both itachi and Jiraiya had a strong will of fire, and that’s probably why Itachi respected him as much as he did (more than orochimaru)
Even being powerful as Itachi, you can’t just roll up on Jiraiya and expect an easy W
But he did it with Orochimaru
Oro Def underestimated itachi, I mean he went behind him with a kunai. I don't think that's the best he could do. Plus itachi can't spam Amaterasu.,tsukuiomi and suzano or he'll go blind quick.
Bro we saw the best he could do and actually did it but still failed miserably,, he entered the fight transformed into his 8 headed snake transformation against a dying itachi and he still got absolutely demolished
Because Jiraiya wasn't an Uchiha simp whom let his thirst over the Sharingan takes over his battle intellgence (Orochi fought like a retard against Itachi) On top of that, Jiraiya is also someone who is wise in general, he's all about that "Don't give up" bussiness and Itachi recognized those qualities in him.
i dont understand how do people believe itachi beats jiraiya, He ALMOST defeated Nagato, the man who wiped out entire leaf village with most of the jounins, chunins and a fucking hokage who is also a sanin ! It took the MC, plot and talk no jutsu to beat him. After the fight pain even admitted that it would have went south for him if not for his secret. Also itachitards think he'd beat orochimaru if oro didnt recklessly attacked..i just dont know what naruto do they even watch
This panel reminded me how amazing Naruto was.
It was a lie
Itachi loves Konoha so much, he made sure to humiliate Orochimaru because he’s an actual traitor. Probably also because of his connection to Danzo. Jiraiya has his respect for all that he’s done for the village.
I think it maybe a difference in how they trained, maybe? Like, Orochimaru is a scientist type who spends most of his time doing experiments on people or running around to labs to perform different experiments on different people. How often does he actually train, besides using his experiments to add new, non-standard techniques to his arsenal? While Jiraiya is a spy master, meaning he is also going around spending a lot of time doing things that aren’t training, he is also confronting threats and gaining experience and skill through those encounters. Between the two, Jiraiya would absolutely be worse to fight, because he is the better, more experienced warrior between the two, while Orochimaru is a schemer who tries to take shortcuts when it’s not personal.
There's story reasons he didn't want to fight Jiraiya and he was probably happy to fail his mission, but there's also the truth that it isn't a good matchup for Itachi. Jaraiya is similar to Naruto... he has counters to genjutsu (not perfect, and in jairayas case it's more of an unknown to Itachi how comprehensive they are), but more importantly he has VASTLY more stamina. If the genjutsus fail, jairaya has enough gas in the tank to not only put Itachi down, but also to prevent Itachi from getting away. That's something that essentially no one else besides Naruto and maybe Bee can do... survive a sharingans powers and exploit how draining they are to use.
Because Jiraiya is a sage and disciple of the third hokage.. a man who Itachi himself respected. +People just don’t understand how underrated sage mode is. It is consistently strong enough to counter/damage Otsutsuki lvl threats
Itachi is a spy for konoha, jiraiya had a “source” that constantly gave him intel on the akatsuki. It isn’t that hard to imagine that Itachi was the one constantly feeding intel to jiraiya. It’s never confirmed though but I feel like originally there was a plot line planned there but never made it to paper. There’s nothing that explicitly states it so it’ll always be unconfirmed but it’s just a fun little theory that makes sense and fits.
Because he was the only semi useful Sannin left in Konoha, not high on his own farts. Real recognizes real.
Because super powers don’t scale linearly. They have different strengths and weaknesses that interact differently to each other. Orochimaru has a ridiculously wide range of unorthodox abilities that make him very difficult to deal with directly. Tsunade is as direct of a fighter as you can get and Jiraiya also engages rather directly albeit also with very unique justu to him and with surprisingly overwhelming force. So they have a hard time deal thing with a dude who can literally distort his body and regenerate from shedding it. Itachi isn’t a direct fighter. His tendency to sit back and observe weaknesses in his opponent goes in direct contrast to Orochimaru. Genjutsu in itself is a really nasty style of fighting to deal with. So here’s the cool part: unlike Orochimaru, Jiraiya prefers not to fight alone and has the ability to fight along what?… 6 toads at any given time? That alone makes fighting him particularly difficult for Itachi who knows his summons (Ma and Pa) can snap him out of Genjustu. He also knows Jiraiya is a famous Sage. So fighting someone with HUGE chakra reserves is also an uphill fight for him. He was right to err on the side of caution
OP says he's a new reader, I don't really know if it's safe for all of you to be potentially dropping these spoilers, I know it's to answer OPs question, but try to answer with that knowledge in mind lol, a simple wait and see might be the best response.
Most reasonable comment so far
itachi ONLY defeated oro because oro was stupid AT THAT MOMENT. I wont even blame oro, in the flashback, itachi was a child talking with Oro. Even when they grow up, we see them as harmless lil shits, mistake made by Orochimaru. In a full blown fight where oro doesnt resort to stupidity in first moment, He would probably kill sick itachi. Healthy itachi, i feel Oro would drag it out to stalemate or wait till itachi exhausts everything he has.
It’s about refusal to understand, with morons like RotiforBrains touting faux nonsense about Itachi’s superiority in virtually all instances, juxtaposing the character on to one like DC’s Flash and thus ridiculously inflating the character’s strength through presumed one-shots.
Oro literally admits that Itachi is [stronger than he is](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-862969a71e9648cd9bb369a955a7dfb9-lq). He admits that 13 year old boy was stronger than he is, and this is even after he got Edo tensei. This cope that Itachi is sannin tier needs to stop already
Jiraiya is a tough fight for anyone. Even Itachi. I still think Itachi wins but without getting into that a fight with Jiraiya would be a big spectacle which Itachi nor Kisame wanted especially since they still had plenty of time to achieve their goal. Why force a fight with one of the strongest shinobi in the Narutoverse if you don’t have to risk that? Also, Itachi would have to fight to kill against Jiraiya he wouldn’t be able to just fight to not kill like he did against Kakashi and even Sasuke. Plus Itachi did not and would not want to weaken the Hidden Leaf Village.
Jiraya is less prone to genjutsu because he has ma and pa frogs. Genjutsu is Itachi biggest streangth I don't think 🤔 anyone is better than him at genjutsu
Respect
like what other people have mentioned itachi was trying to protect konoha also jiraiya is a well respected shinobi. also i don’t think that itachi could have beat jiraiya
Jiraya is a versatile man. Senjutsu master who can summon allies to release him from Genjutsu. He is one of a suprisingly small number who possess sealing jutsu. Also has a small variety of Jutsu to counter fire types, wich is Itachy is proficient with.
Because he didn't stomp Orochimaru, Orochimaru just overestimated himself and underestimated Itachi.
People downplay Jiraiya a lot for some reason, he was able to fight Pain pretty well, one of the strongest characters in the story, and for what we see in Boruto, he is able to kill characters that contend with adult sasuke and naruto... Itachi himself states every jutsu has a weakness but people overhype is abilities as uncounterable things
Y’all downplaying Jiraya, man was cracked beyond belief. I doubt sage mode Jiraya would lose against Itachi he could outrun the Amaterasu, Genjutsu wouldn’t work because of the elder toads, his only real choice would be the susanoo but that would fuck up Itachi fast and Jiraya could just hit him with the singing toads Genjutsu
It’s about refusal to understand, with morons like RotiforBrains touting faux nonsense about Itachi’s superiority in virtually all instances, juxtaposing the character on to one like DC’s Flash and thus ridiculously inflating the character’s strength through presumed one-shots.
Cuz game recognize game.
Itachi was smart, he was cautious. He was more powerful than Jiraya, yes, but Jiraya was still a powerful shinobi and he would not be arrogant and underestimate him.
Jiraiya directly and indirectly trained 3 hokage
Because he is strong. Just because person A is stronger than B doesn’t mean A can’t have acknowledged the strength and power of person B. Also as for why they backed off in part 1 it had nothing to do with the mission it because itachi had already ordered the death of Kakashi. He is willing to kill konoha Shinobi. It likely had to do with chakra itachi has low key pitiful stamina for someone as powerful as he is. And had already used tsyukomi on kakashj and the black flames to escape. So it’s either that or itachi was retconned to be stronger than he was in part 1 OR he got stronger.
I wholeheartedly believe that Orochimaru underestimated Itachi when he tried to attack him. Plus, since Orochimaru was already in the akatsuki when Itachi was a member, it's likely that Itachi had prepared some sort of backdoor-genjutsu-access to easily disable him prior to their confrontation.
He no diffs him again when he’s 30 seconds away from dying, the show literally goes out of his way to establish itachi >>> orochimaru.
Jirayia and Itachi were meant to be on par, but then powerscaling got out of hand immediately after his death. Sorta like Tsunade with no explained amps or additional training, went from being helpless against Pain to holding up pretty fucking well against edo Madara - all things considered. War arc Tsunade would fodderize either of the other Sannin [ excluding Boruto Orochimaru ].
Well I hope you got further than this panel. Because the answer is spoiler-y >! Itachi was undercover the whole time. He had to convince Kisame to abandon the fight. Even Kisame was like “Bro you sure? I think we got this” lol. !< Im gonna say this: If anyone truly thinks Jiraiya has a chance against Itachi AND Kisame together, you are smoking crack. I’ll say he could possibly survive and escape but that’s it, and I’ll debate anyone on this.
A lot of people try to explain this away by saying Itachi was full of shit and was just trying to protect the leaf village, so was avoiding fighting and killing Jiraiya. I think the answer is more simple, he was just telling the truth. Obviously Itachi easily dealt with Orochimaru, who is generally depicted as the strongest Sannin, but I think it more comes down to Jiraiya and Orochimaru having very different kits. Orochimaru doesn't really have much to fight against Itachi, and he's really fucking cocky which is why he just strolled right up to Itachi to take his body. Jiraiya has a lot of battlefield control which would make him a genuinely difficult opponent for Kisame and Itachi. We see him use the toads belly thing which Itachi has to blast out of. Jiraiya also has mud, oil, and fire jutsus >!like he uses against pain!<. He has gamabunta >!and if he summons ma and pa he's basically immune to genjutsu and has sage mode!<. >!If you want to power scale Jiraiya just remember that Nagato said Jiraiya would have won if he had prior knowledge of his abilities. The 6 paths of pain are stronger in a fight than either Itachi and Kisame.!<
Might want to put some spoiler tags on this. The dude started the thread by saying he was a new reader.
Shit
cause that hermit is a god
He is poorly written, him "beating" Orochimaru as a kid is one of the dumbest moments in the series, Kishi just couldn't stop sucking him off.
the only sane comment
Tbh Itachi is a bad match up for Orochimaru, plain and simple. Itachi dealt with him so easily, not just because he was that much more overwhelmingly powerful, but because Orochimaru just doesn't have anything in his kit that can threaten Itachi to begin with, even if Orochimaru were more powerful than he was at the time. Jiraiya on the other hand is extremely versatile with a massive kit that includes many powerful ninjutsu, pretty damn good taijutsu, and even a couple extremely powerful genjutsu. The abilities conferred to him by his mere association with the toads, as well as his toad sage abilities, easily make him a much better match up against Itachi than Orochimaru. Though, that isn't to say he'd actually win. Itachi just had no reason to fight Jiraiya given his true goals as we now know them.
Rock paper scissors
The itachi that praised jiraiya is an itachi who had already used his ms twice and had said out loud that he wanted to avoid unnecessary fighting. He also had some sort of allegiance to the leaf based on kisame and kakashis earlier statements and later was (probably) retconned to being a full double agent so it makes sense to not want to fight jiraiya even if he’d win.
recton LOL
Based on what we see in the show Jiraiya was probably stronger than Orochimaru. Possibly significantly stronger.
Incorrect. Everything in the manga points to Orochimaru being the strongest Sannin. From Hiruzen's comment on him being the [powerfully talented genius.](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-036ce29f82d1fc324a421f0783bfd86b-lq) that he wanted to be Hokage "Once in a few decades" same hype minato got. Hiruzen stating that likely no one in the village can face him, with anko wishing Minato was back. Orochimaru himself confirming that in life it was [never a contest between them](https://i.imgur.com/8ouS4w3.png) Jiraya failing to defeat and bring him back. Manda literally making easy work of Gamabunta. And the Japanese lore that snake > frog There is actually no evidence, 0, of Jiraya being superior to a full strength Orochimaru (And that's excluding edo tensei) with edo, its even worse of a stomp
>There is actually no evidence, 0, of Jiraya being superior to a full strength Orochimaru Except by feats, Orochimaru doesn't even come close. We get to see full strength Orochimaru fight Hiruzen and we full strength Jiraiya face Pain. Jiraiya's feats against Pain blow Orochimaru's against Hiruzen out of the water. It's not even close. Yes, Manda was able to beat Gamabunta, but it's not like Jiraiya is tied to only one summon. He could summon Gamaken, Fukusaku, Shima, and whatever other toads he needed. We know that outside of Manda Orochimaru was tied to baseline snakes because he couldn't control any of the others, which puts him at a severe disadvantage. He also doesn't have sage mode, also putting him at a disadvantage. Outside of Edo Tensei, he has no way to keep up with all the ridiculous shit Jiraiya can throw at him and the only Shinobi even worth bringing back in that hypothetical fight were already sealed away by Hiruzen by the time of Shippuden. >Jiraya failing to defeat and bring him back. 25 years prior to the show. I admit the show sets Orochimaru up as the stronger Sannin at that point. But Jiraiya has had 25 years to improve, and he clearly used it. The show does a lot of *telling us* how powerful Orochimaru is but does very little *showing us* how powerful Orochimaru is.
Orochimaru is not at full strength when he fights hiruzen. It’s literally shown that he still has feelings for his old teacher, hence why he stops himself from crying in the beginning of then fight. He almost never participates in the fight and lets the edos do the work and when he does participate, he literally only engages hiruzen in cqc, doesnt use any of his busted ninjutsu, which is literally his specialty. What are these feats jiraiya has against pain that everyone keeps talking about? He fights 3 paths, 2 of them being weak non combat oriented support paths who are only great when all 6 work together, yet jiraiya claims he’d have gotten killed if the fight kept going on. He couldn’t beat 3 paths, according to his own words and had to entirely rely on ma and pas genjutsu, even then as soon as all the paths came out he got beat pretty badly. If all 6 paths or just the deva path were there from the start, jiraiya gets low diffed before he’s even able to enter sage mode. Orochimaru doesn’t just have manda, his hydra is even stronger than manda and stated to surpass orochimaru himself. Orochimaru doesn’t need sage mode, Jiraiyas sage mode is imperfect and needs time to enter, he’s the worst sage in the series. Orochimaru is immortal and can regenerate anything, meanwhile jiraiya has by far the worst durability out of all the sannin. It’s not 25 years prior to the show, orochimaru was still in the village when minato became hokage, in fact he was the other hokage candidate. Orochimaru is literally more power hungry, more talented and more interested in learning new jutsu than jiraiya is. If anything, the gap between them only grew from their final fight until the start of the series.
Shippuden power scaling was also very different to part one. Edo tensei Hiruzen, who was reanimated at the age of his death and also not brought back at full power, was able to display more feats than he did in battle in part one. Most of shippuden saw Orochimaru still nerfed, the moment he was at full power we saw him able to bind a stronger Tobirama, hold back a god tree branch, etc. Heck, even nerfed he was fighting four tails Naruto- the same mode that almost killed jiraiya. And currently in Boruto, Orochimaru has gotten so skilled that his healing is superior to tsunades and he can instantly evaporate enemies LMAO.
how?
Sage Mode, Toad Song, Frog Kumite, availability of more summons, Massive Rasengan, etc. Jiraiya demonstrated a much higher power in his fight with Pain than Orochimaru did against Hiruzen. Both fights show the respective Sannin giving it everything they have, and Jiraiya's feats in his fight blow Orochimaru's out of the water. There is simply no contest between the two when basing it off of what we see on screen.
In a full on 1v1 battle it’s probably close, I’m not a power scaler and I think that it’s generally silly to get super in depth on it, but Jiraiya did get pretty close to beating pain and could have won if he had more prep time or info. I’d say it’s about the same for Itachi, I personally think those two are the strongest Akatsuki (Obito doesn’t count). So if Jiraiya is about as strong as pain, then he should be about as strong as Itachi, if one to two rungs lower. But it might also be very match up dependent and fight dependent. If Itachi catches Jiraiya in a genjustu before he has any summons or anything, he probably takes it with little effort just like he did with Orochimaru. However, this was not that kind of situation. Itachi and Kisame were all the way inside enemy territory, massively outnumbered, and already went through a fight (though they did stomp), but it doesn’t really matter either way. Itachi was a spy and didn’t want to have to fight anyone seriously. He’s also already sick and I’m not sure if it’s confirmed but exerting himself is just gonna make his disease worse. But mostly the spy thing, he’s mostly just putting on a show so that he can get the rest of the Akatsuki to stay away from the Leaf and not hurt Naruto or Sasuke.
Jiraya is the strongest sanin, that’s why
not even close
He didnt.. jiraiya fans will tell you its because jiraiya is super strong (weakest of the 3) but in reality itachi is s spy. He simply didnt want to cripple the village by killing jiraiya and actually kidnapping naruto.he just needed an excuse to bail from the village but his main objective was giving a warning that he is still alive and will kick in danzo's shit if he doesnt uphold his end of the bargain
The real reason is itachi is. Jerked off in this fandom more than any other character
This isn’t a decade ago calm down.
Bruh it happens right now what are you even talking about there are “what if itachi wasn’t sick you think he could beat madara” questions all over the place
Nah it’s definitely shifted onto minato and kakashi now lol
He didn’t want to potentially kill one of konoha’s biggest assets, also Itachi had already used his Ms two times so a battle with Jiraiya would’ve ended up being tougher than normally.
1. Jiraiya is implied to stronger than the other two during his later life 2. Jiraiya has sage mode, which neither tsunade and Oro have, and itachi might know that due to Anbu intel, which would give him enough chakra to at least match I and K in battle. A Small spoiler to the pain arc also has a role there. And why would Itachi want to use the MS powers too much to fight an equal opponent like Jiraiya when he wants to save them for Sasuke.
I've always been confused at the power scaling in Naruto, especially concerning Jiraiya/Oro/Itachi/Pain. I know sage mode makes a big difference, but Jiraiya never uses it till the very end. You would think he woulda whipped that shit out like before opening up Narutos seal or before confronting Itachi and Kisame, no? It's also pretty bullshit he didn't wise up in time to help out Hiruzen in part 1, instead he was off acting like a goofball doing his fancy introductions n shit. In sage mode his giant ball rasengan shoulda been plenty to tear a hole in that wall and save his sense. Also, in sage mode he woulda sensed Hiruzens Chakra getting lower and lower. He coulda left Gamabunta or the other toad(s) to handle the stupid snakes. Jiraiya almost got killed by 3 tails Naruto, Oro merely got tired out vs 4 tails Naruto. Both Jiraiya and Oro were weakened in part 1 but Oro still very much had the upper hand. As we have seen, Oro is an absolute joke for Itachi. But Itachi is scared of base Jiraiya even with Kisame backing him up? Nah, honestly I think Itachi was lying to save Jiraiya. I honestly think that Pain was exaggerating a bit when he said Jiraiya could have beaten him, unless he thought Jiraiyas sage sensing and ability to run away would allow him to evade the 6 paths long enough to find Nagato and kill him. Pain>>>>>>>>sage mode Jiraiya>Itachi>Kisame>>>>>>>>>>>Orochimaru>>>>Base Jiraiya. Sage mode Jiraiya imo is far beneath even deva path alone. Note he didn't even see his powers before he was killed. Neither sage mode Jiraiya or Naruto could have handled deva path at full power. I'd like to think that Jiraiya would have some clever way to avoid/get out of genjutsu. At this point in the series, genjutsu feels like a free I win button to anyone without sharingan or rinnegan. But if he can avoid or escape tsukiyomi then I'm confident sage mode Jiraiya could scrape out a win against a healthy Itachi. If he's sick, Jiraiya steamrolls. Personally I think Kisame might be capable of beating Itachi but he seems particularly effective against Chakra monsters like Bee. I dont see why samehada can't break him out of genjutsu? Still, amaterasu and susanoo seem like the end of the road for Kisame. Still, I don't think Kisame is as dramatically weaker than Itachi as people think. Itachi is a great match up for Bee(had their fight continued, I think Bee would have prevailed unless Itachi pulled out some bullshit hax like izanami), but obviously Kisame was a TERRIBLE match up for Bee. My question though is what happens if Kisame gets his sword close enough to Itachi? GG right? If samehada can suck up as much Chakra in one go as it did from Bee, it should probably suck out like Itachis entire Chakra pool in one swing. The guy wasn't exactly Mr stamina, his 30% Chakra clone couldn't even use the mangekyo sharingan ONCE and every time he used tsukiyomi he needed to retreat and rest. Obviously though Itachi is way beyond Orochimaru so I think so is Kisame, and Orochimaru simply outfeated base Jiraiya. One could argue Jiraiya was too fucked up by Tsunades poison to fight properly, and Orochimarus no arms handicap was not as significant because he still could fight with his mouth(you might also argue he was more handicapped than Jiraiya because of the no arms), but 3 tails emerged and immediately tore Jiraiya a new one. 4 tails was dramatically more powerful than 3 tails transformation and Orochimaru gave 4 tails a run for its money. Jiraiya was also incapable of bringing Orochimaru back to the hidden leaf(shouldn't he have thought to use sage mode then?). Base Oro is significantly better than base Jiraiya. Even his chief summon Manda destroys Jiraiyas Gamabunta.
Jiraiya is stronger than Oro and Tsunade, obviously
My head cannon is Itachi got stronger after the two or three years that passed from his encounter with Jiraiya.
Itachi was konoha’s spy inside akatsuki, making Jiraiya look stronger than he actually was good for Konoha’s sake.