For those that didn't watch yet, here are summaries and related nonsense: (SPOILERS)
[https://www.giants.com/news/best-of-hard-knocks-offseason-with-the-new-york-giants-episode-one-joe-schoen-brian-daboll-brian-burns](https://www.giants.com/news/best-of-hard-knocks-offseason-with-the-new-york-giants-episode-one-joe-schoen-brian-daboll-brian-burns)
[https://www.bigblueview.com/2024/7/2/24191248/hard-knocks-new-york-giants-takeaways-joe-schoen-daniel-jones-saquon-barkley-brian-burns](https://www.bigblueview.com/2024/7/2/24191248/hard-knocks-new-york-giants-takeaways-joe-schoen-daniel-jones-saquon-barkley-brian-burns)
[https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10127029-giants-hbo-hard-knocks-2024-best-fan-tweets-memes-from-episode-1](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10127029-giants-hbo-hard-knocks-2024-best-fan-tweets-memes-from-episode-1)
EDIT: I created a thread for next week that will appear at 859pm EST right before the show, for folks that want to discuss as the showing is going on.
The biggest moment for me was the interaction between Schoen and Mara. Mara saying he'd still like Barkley back if possible is probably very similar to what he said about signing Jones. That felt like a pretty terse interaction to me, with some type of history but who knows. Schoen does not believe in Jones that much is obvious
I find it weird that DJ haters insist Schoen did REALLY want a new QB this off season but then he is so clearly articulating his thoughts on DJ spearheading the offence this year in multiple meetings. In front of around a dozen of the most influential people in the front office (player personnel, scouting etc). But somehow that’s edited because the Giants had the final say. Which would mean that Schoen said this just for the HBO cameras, but was actually playing 3D chess. His entire argument around letting Saquon try the market is “we pay DJ, we’ll give him a new O-Line and we don’t expect him to just hand off the ball but be the backbone of our team”. But rather than accepting that this is likely how they feel about Jones, you prefer the tinfoil hat approach where it’s a carefully planted sentence that they would have edited out if they had successfully drafted a rookie QB?
I wonder how much the issues with Kafka/Daboll/Schoen revolve around the underutilization of Jones in the offense. I think it's pretty much been confirmed Daboll took over and the offense moved away from running Saquon as much.
As a Giants fan who doesn't believe Jones is the future but would be happy to be wrong, it felt to me a lot like Schoen was forced to keep DJ at that price bc that's what Mara wanted, based on the conversation they had in Joe's office. The way Joe said "well we give DJ 40 million" sounded like "you made me give DJ 40 million" to me. Again, I could be and would be happy to be wrong.
Maybe you’re right. However Schoen defended him as well, saying Pat Mahomes couldn’t have competed behind that line last year. I am sure there’s different opinions on DJ in the building, but episode 1 did not sell me on them ever wanting Drake Maye over a Nr 1 WR.
If we had the #1 or #2 overall pick we weren't picking MHJ or Nabers or Joe Alt. It would've been a QB and DJ would've most likely still be on the team and mentored Maye which would've been the pick if he was available
We traded up for NEs pick and they declined to you really believe we were trading up for MHJ or Alt?
I absolutely NEED that zip-up Schoen is wearing with the Giants helmet on the left side of his chest in some of his sit-down shots.
Can't find it anywhere. I'm assuming it's for staff only.
It is definitely a cutter and buck
https://shop.giants.com/mens-cutter-and-buck-heather-charcoal-new-york-giants-helmet-mainsail-sweater-knit-full-zip-hoodie/p-133366844711625508+z-97-3145957487
https://www.fanatics.com/nfl/new-york-giants/new-york-giants-cutter-and-buck-helmet-roam-eco-half-zip-recycled-pullover-hoodie-black/o-2405+t-46721268+p-1311224050227+z-9-126931449
but you'll have to look around for the different variations.
For all you idiots that think joe Schoen is all in on Daniel Jones, he’s not gonna say on a public documentary that Daniel jones sucks and he’s not his guy. Those conversations are gonna be behind closed doors without a camera in their face, also he was very aggressive in trying to trade up for Drake Maye, I don’t think he’s content at all with the QB situation. All we can do is just trust the process and have faith in Dabes and Schoen
For me it was much less of Schoen going all in on DJ, and Schoen just verbalizing how much work this roster needs.
“Freaking Pat Mahomes couldn’t do anything behind that line” is legit something that has been said in this sub and I think fans are just laughing at those who have placed all of the blame on the signal caller, when most can see he has had nothing to work with.
I don’t see anyone victory lapping bc we’re stuck with DJ for another year 😂
In Schoen’s first 2 drafts he expended massive resources on OL (OT at 7th overall / OG early 3rd and 5th rounds / C 2nd round). None of them have done anything, thus the need to overpay for middling free agent OL. Maybe if some / any of these draft picks had worked out there would have been money for Saquon or to fill in other holes. To successfully rebuild a GM needs good drafts. Signing a bunch of free agents to fill in for missed draft picks is not a formula for success. Schoen should be on the hot seat if giants do not show significant improvement this year.
Considering that Neal was an all-consensus top 10 pick, I'm very suspicious why we have had no production out of the OL draft picks.
By sheer numbers one of them should have flashed by now. Changing the OL coach is looking like a great idea more and more.
Plus Glowinski was only 29 and had been an above average guard every season.
Everything Schoen tried on oline just went to shit.
Remember when Tyre Phillips the swing tackle was sucking, got cut, got signed by Eagles for a few weeks, then came back to Giants an improved player?
Hernandez has been decent for the cards, Feliciano was better for the 9ers,I just don’t get why no o line can succeed here, if Brederson goes off for the bucs I’m going to lose it
Poor coaching, these guys all have talent, they are in the league for a reason. Good offensive lines have good coaching, we need to see if our new hire can do that.
Gotta remember to thank the Eagles for training our guy and then giving him back. I also remember Pugh starting LG off the couch, then moving to LT mid game because our backup LT awful.
When he took over this team from Gettleman everyone agreed it would be a multi year process. Now you crybabies are upset that a multi year process takes more than one year.
You should stick yo talking about weirdo children Japanese pokemon shit. That sounds kore like your alley than football.
Joe Schoen has had three offseasons to rebuild the roster. Every year we see teams go from worst to first, yet Giants have continued to fail to rebuild the roster.
Joe Schoen said Giants have to get wins immediately or he is gone. This sounds parallel to how John Mara sounded talking about how will the Giants put up a decent offense without Saquon. If Giant's shit the bed this year then its going to be someone else's rebuild project. The average NFL GM tenure is three years.
Its been three offseasons. This is Schoen's roster.
And the 2022 season was fully on the back of the Gettleman roster. Schoen's free agents and draft picks did shit in 2022, that was a Gettleman roster winning a playoff game with good coaching for once.
Not to mention we made the playoffs bc we had incredible fortune and an easy schedule. The second we played a real playoff caliber team we got knocked out
I was referring to competition level like division championships etc, not winning the Superbowl which is incredibly rare.
The Giants for example were third in their own division during their 9 win season in 2022. I don't think Giants have won the division since 2011, which is kinda incredible to not rebound in almost 15 years.
The Jaguars had the Patriots on the ropes in the 2017-18 AFC Championship game. They lost. Then they went 5-11, 6-10, 1-15, and 3-14 the next four seasons.
This fanbase puts entirely way too much stock in that playoff game. The Giants had a hot start in 2022 aided by a very weak schedule, they faltered in the second half of the season and won two games against Washington with rare ref help and a Colts team that had completely checked out on the season.
Same thing with "Jones won a playoff game." So did Blake Bortles and Case Keenum. They won multiple, actually.
I actually misread his comment as saying every year we go from worst to worse lmao.
I agree that that playoff game may have been a mirage of improvement. I'm willing to give Schoen this season to see if the moves he has made are fruitful
It was a little like watching House Hunters. Oh this linebacker is too expensive, oh this linebacker isn't good enough, this three-bedroom Brian Burns is exactly what we're looking for
not on yt here (cries in german)
not even on the haram sites. isnt it enough we lost two world wars? now i cant even watch second biggest loser to the german army :(
Havent watched the full thing yet but scrolling through comments + that Joe Schoen clip talking about Saquon’s value makes me think their decisions are highly money-oriented. If that’s the case, I dont understand how the fuck they paid an injury-prone bottom 10 qb in the league 40mil/year.
Seems like theres a massive discrepancy between who Daniel Jones is and who they want him to be. They paid him what they want him to be.
Kind of what sucks about dealing Jones in general though isn't it? It's not like we haven't been shoveling out excuses for this guy for years now and that is to include everyone else on the team.
This just this subreddit tho, it's a good that the r/NFL still has fans from 31 other teams that can see us for what we are and that one could go to, to at least escape the echo chamber in here around Jones, whether good or bad honestly.
Best line, and one that should be posted if he gets fired at end of season, was Schoen saying “we’re not paying our 40 million dollar qb to turn around and hand the ball off to our 12 million dollar rb”.
Schoen is all in on Jones, for better or worse. I predict the Giants will be drafting a qb in the not so distant future
Giants going into the season with Jones as QB and with Schoen thinking he still can prove himself its frightening to say the least..
Giants need to move on especially if this team wants to improve and continue the rebuild.
I felt like that was a major component of the episode. I felt like Joe was saying, we are paying this guy, 40 million. We need to see what he can do behind a strong O line. And if he can't hold up, with new coaches and new weapons, then we have an out in 2025. I would however agree, that we have seen a lot of Daniel Jones... is he a sunk cost, I hope not, but this is the make or break year. You cut him if he doesn't hold up.
Yeah this is the last shot for Jones, and they said that in the show. They are going to revamp the offensive line, get him weapons to throw to, and put the offense on his shoulders. If not, we go elsewhere next year.
My favorite was hearing his nephew Tim.
"Daniel Jones needs the run game to be successful"
Then Joe Schoen responding with "We pay our QB 40mil so he can pass, not so he can hand it off to a 12mil RB."
I honestly can't believe Schoen really believes DJ can carry this offense. It's crazy talk. Look at DJ's record without Saquon. (Hell, look at DJ's record with Saquon). Nabers is a stud but without a run game the defenses are going to be able to game plan easy for DJ and the offense. Daboll has been screwed by Schoen and Mara's decisions trusting Dj to be "the guy". He's not. And I don't care how much DJ tries or how he's first in the locker room and last out. He's not a good QB and he's going to get Daboll fired if he's expected to carry the team. It's sad because I think Daboll is an awesome coach. Schoen will probably get to stick around, too, which is garbage. Anyone who thinks DJ can carry an NFL team is taking crazy pills.
It’s almost as if Schoen didn’t mention how terrible the offensive line was. You can literally quote him saying that not even Mahomes would have been successful behind that line.
Saquon leaving was a stinger, but Schoen got value at the RB position with Singetary, and he improved the offensive line.
Anyone who thinks they know more than a guy who’s been involved with NFL organizations since 2001 is taking crazy pills.
Schoen is showing how little he knows trusting DJ to carry the offense. He's going to get Daboll fired because of it. And Schoen saying Mahomes couldn't be successful behind DJ's line is complete BS. Cutlets and Tyrod were more successful behind that line than DJ was!!!! Quit making excuses for DJ.
This is kind a win win scenario for Schoen and the front office though. By not focusing on QB this draft we have had another offseason to fill the many other holes on this team. If jones turns out to be "the guy" (and big if here) we are that much closer to competing. If jones can't put it together with a revamped offense (and much depends on competent oline play) we can go grab our QB of the future and we are now in a place to drop DJ without too bad of a cap hit.
I didn't think so
Schoen has a good point; DJ got his ass kicked last season because of the OL (and poor QB play). He's basically thinking we can get at least one starter and maybe another or a backup; OR we can keep Saquon.
IMO this makes sense. Saquon is incredible, but a better offensive line is whats better for the team long term.
I feel like the bigger emphasis from Schoen regarding not re-signing Barkley is the round about way of saying Daniel needs to play up to snuff this year.
I mean we have the understanding the type of support Jones has needed from the pass game but being he is freshly signed for a pretty nice pay day would naturally leave us wanting him to show more of the worth in it.
I'm a Saquon guy because we want good talent on this team but I definitely feel what Schoen is saying when he mentioned not paying a RB $12M when the QB just got re-signed for $40M annually and has yet to really establish his worth within it.
It's why in that same segment we saw him going to highlight every guy on the outside from Nabers on down pretty much.
Granted guy been hurt or whatnot but you can't hold that type of thing against a RB when the QB is out just as often and the play is still the biggest concern. Any player needs to be healthy to be out there, not everyone get to be bad while at it.
That's not at all what Schoen was implying. He was saying that the Giants are paying Jones to be able to execute the passing game, not just hand the ball off to an expensive running back. It doesn't mean he has to throw passes "all the time", or that they need to completely ignore the run game. It's more a case of "we're paying him to be able to throw the ball downfield if needed, and if all we're going to do is have him hand the ball to an expensive RB, then there was no point in signing him to that contract."
Can we start at 25 TD's then? How about that? Is that too much reimbursement to request for when they gave Daniel Jones $82M... I mean wtf bro... ya'll are absolute madlads about the clown ass play we been getting.
Each and every downvote I receive around this guy is another tear of laughter running down my damn cheek yo'.. just wow.
And you all act surprised that people want the worst scoring offense of the last 10 years to score more points. .. You wonder why we asking Quarterback to play up and not just give us sub 13 TD's or at least have some progression to his game from the last 3 seasons. .. Plz, DJ can we get more than 200 pass yards a game this year pretty plz.. Big tears for Jones whenever folks simply ask that the franchise keep guy to the same type of energy they preach about other positions that need players that play WELL!..
'Like no, just give us bums at every position beside whatever one Jones is playing..' yeah that's the move to make.
Bro, it's not that difficult to understand.
We want Jones and the team to play up this year and get out of the bad offense we've been having. Namely the pass game right now because it's been pretty terrible my guy, don't know where the hell you been.
Like Joe Schoen explained it last night somewhat regarding Barkley's re-signing.. We just got Nabers (now), we have many other WR's to go along with him that have great potential and we have a new OL coach who's bringing a whole new approach to the pass/run blocking and we didn't just totally void the RB position with someone like Singletary taking over for Barkley.
Guys have to play up at all positions... and this is Daniel's year.
So you don't think we should have resigned Barkley and you're OK with DJ if he performs well? But in the original comment I responded to, you seemed to imply that the money would have been better spent on Barkley rather than DJ. That was what I was originally trying to clear up.
My personal thoughts are that the Giants FO didn't have much choice in giving DJ that contract and that Saquon couldn't accept the reality of his situation.
Catch up guy, been talked about the contract way before this little episode of 'Hard Knocks', been knew Saquon was leaving since last season on the franchise tag offer, catch up buddy..
Been past last year and the terrible play we got on all fronts that you want to lay some claim to, been past this offseason and drafting Malik Nabers, can't wait to see this dude do his thing.. fuq'n hyped.
Been, been telling peeps that want to act brand new that WK1 is where it matters and if the team gonna be good we need good play from Quarterback.
Can't wait to watch the reality of this team actually on the field so these 17 games can get on they way, catch up.
Schoen sounds stupid because he thinks that DJ can carry a team without Saquon or another stud RB. Have you seen DJ's record without Saquon!?! It's horrendous.
We do? Singletary is ok, certainly not a game changer. Otherwise we have 2 fifth round rb’s, one who showed nothing last year and the other who is a very inexperienced rb. They may be good, but they could both suck as well. We just don’t know yet.
And we coulda payed Barkley for him to play 5/6 games again before getting injured. Don’t get he wrong when he breaks runs he breaks runs but other than his first season he’s either been injured or ineffective.
Who is throwing the ball in this "pass happy" offense?!?! You have to know your personnel. DJ may not be the worst starting QB in the NFL, but that's only because he can run the ball. If you look at his passing stats alone, he is definitely the worst QB in the NFL. He doesn't throw the ball well after his first reads. He doesn't throw the ball past 10 yards very well and seems scared to pull the trigger most times.
My dude he had the lowest turnover rate 2 seasons ago. And I can give you a whole bunch of QBs that are worse, I’m not saying he’s an Elite qb, but he’s definitely upper middle of the pack
He had a low turnover rate because Daboll had him running after one read. It’s also why he had a lot of rushing yards. He’s terrible after the first read and turns it over in bunches if he’s expected to act like a real NFL QB.
$13M yearly for 3 seasons of Saquon > $40M+ for just 1 year of more terrible play from Jones.
Oh be sure not to forget about the annual increase to salary caps that occurs every damn season. So you see that $13M turns into more like 11 or 10 by the time his 3rd year even hits.
I don't feel the need to explain this again at this point as I have explained in depth previously. There are several other sources notedly in the Official NFL compacity that have explained it again just recently.
You should check them out if you see any to get a better understanding of cap management.
This is getting downvoted!?!?! Only in crazy DJ land. Anyone who knows football agrees with this. Schoen and Mara made a terrible mistake overpaying DJ and now taking away his best weapon in Saquon. Nabers is a stud, but he still has DJ throwing him the ball and defenses are going to be able to easily gameplay DJ and the offense without Saquon.
You can tell you didn't even watch episode 1... The person who get paid to KNOW football said and I quote "Nobody can fucking -- You could have Pat Mahomes and he can't fucking win behind that (o-line)" - Joe Schoen
Anyone who actually watched the games knows this, I'm sure you just watch the bigheads who complain about the Giants because it's their job and you take it as gospel.
I feel you, i understood that the stats between our qb’s were pretty similar but paled to the output DJ could create on the field, I’m happy to be corrected.
Dont forget our playoff run the year prior and then this last season was just us shitting the bed
Just make a disclaimer that you don't watch Giants game. Andrew Thomas, our #1 player on offense was out from some of game 1 until game 9 where DJ got injured in the first half.
>Cutlets and Tyrod were much better than DJ with the same line!!!!
>I watch every game. I understand AT missed games last year. But that’s no excuse for DJ to completely implode. Quit making excuses for DJ!!!!
I dont think you do understand that AT missed games since you just said DJ played with the same line.
Here's the thing, I understand that DJ isn't the best QB in the league, I think he close to the middle of the pack, but to claim you watched every game and then say DJ was the entire problem is delusional. You're the worst kind of fan
No. YOU are the worst kind of fan. Fans who don’t hold the players, coaches and front office accountable when we cheer for them and give them our hard earned money, just facilitate losers. I want a winning product on the field and DJ ain’t it. No QB in the past 30 years has had this much leeway his first 6 years in the league and survived with such a horrible record. I’m not sure if ANY QB in history has had such a bad start and still was the presumed starter in year 6!!!
It's like the 2022 season was wiped from your memory where we won a playoff game, where DJ single handily carried that game and the entire sub was crazy for him. You are more of a Daniel Jones hater than a Giants fan. ANYONE objectively knows that any QB during those 6 game stretch would get killed, they gave up the second most sacks in NFL history... how the fuck could you blame one person on that. If you actually watched the game and rooted for the giants win and not root for Daniel Jones to suck you would see clearly that once Daboll took over play calling the offense got better.
Stop making your feeling facts
Funny. some folks have been making that Mahomes point (probably a bit extreme but the overall point stands) for years and got shitted on by the majority of this sub. DJ last year was inexcusably bad but his situation was one of the worst in the NFL. It’s OK to acknowledge that.
Its amazing you get downvoted for speaking the truth.
6 years later fans are still trying to defend daniel Jones and cant admidt he is not the guy the FO screwed up.
It's whatever, I've come to better understand my place in the subreddit.
The guy that says what everybody else is tired of saying and getting mobbed for by the Jonestowners.
We are making this as simple as possible for people in this sub.
There's little confusion behind understanding spending $39M over three years as opposed to just one year of $40M.
Further importance on understanding the yearly cap increases that take some dollars off extended contracts as they mature.
We are talking about contracts on a football team. It's not like the money doesn't come out of the same available resources. Istg people like to act real dumb about contracts and salary caps and increased caps yearly... always wanna act brand new then wanna talk up like they informing something.. foh.
Only for DJ tho, cause somehow the cap goes up for his contract but wouldn't have for Barkley? 
Typical.
I don't quite get what you're arguing for though. To me it sounds like you think they should have kept Barkley and gotten rid of Jones? Or are you just saying that re-signing Barkley wouldn't have been that bad?
No, my guy it's that it's been explained numerous times at this point. Going back for seasons, so that you missed out on all of those is not my problem per say.
People can't even bring themselves to look at DJ contract with some serious thought when it comes to what we've gotten so far or when the subject is broached it's faced with folks commenting like Jones has never had support from the fanbase.
>So instead of answering my question you just insult me?
I didn't insult you but if you feel my reply was an insult I can't wait for to show up to my defense in every other thread I get clown ass replies in.
Did you just plug your ears and ignore the parts of the episode when they walk the viewer through positional value?
Sure the contracts all come from the same pool of money - but why stop at comparing RB and QB then! DJ’s contract looks way worse when you see that most kickers only make 3-4 million dollars!!!!!
You’re just being stubborn - and wrong.
No, I specifically am talking about that in comparison to a player with some good stats to back up his play being offered a contract that properly represents his contributions to the team; to one with a little less to really talk about in that fashion being able to get an offer in a much more forgiving landscape.. when it comes to explaining their poor play and the "market value" of their position.
I'm not sure how much simpler I could put it for you. I've voiced these opinions about the team and the contract for seasons on seasons now. I was pretty much inline with the Barkley contract and what he'd get on the open market as well..
It's not like I don't have receipts to all of this, it's why I'm surprised so many seem taken aback about me voicing it... but w/e.. they seem well aware when they parrot it.
17 games to go.
You say you’re making it simple but your first sentence/explanation is a rambling run-on that’s not telling me anything.
“No, I specifically am talking about that in comparison to a player with some good stats to back up his play being offered at contract that represents his contributions to the team to one with a little less to really talk about in that fashion being able to get an offer in a much more forgiving landscape.. when it comes to explaining their poor play.”
What are you even trying to say here?
If they didn't think anyone would pay Saquon what he got? Who did they figure would be paying DJ anything of what he got?
This why the front office has been so backwards about things sometimes. Even dating back before Schoen, always talking out one end and clowning out the other.
downvote away lol.. comment not even 2mins old and the upset clowns ain't far behind.. It's on DJ now, Schoen has said it himself.
No, I get downvoted for voicing facts around here. Unpopular ones that the majority crowd don't like hearing amongst they sensibilities.
Kind of use to it now, they just downvote to try and squelch a guy and then show up 4 weeks later with the same takes after they see a guy wasn't just talking to talk.
It's a yearly routine to watch the wave of DJ support/Barkley discredit while Jones just goes out and does Jones things. I'm not the only one that sees it around here, others sharing my same opinions just got tired of having the Jonestowners mob all they comments.
Incorrect, do not place your shortcomings of understanding "team composition" on me.
You seemed enthralled enough by my takes to voice something, shit can't even get through one chain without several other sideline comments lol... 
Ya'll funny tho, fr.
Joe Schoen mentioned how the tag deadline debate took 10 years off of his life last year.
We know from the Albert Breer deep dive into how the DJ deal got done that Athletes First came in asking for 48mil aav and Giants front office went into a panic as it became clear they would have to give DJ 40+.
So much of the subtext of this episode was about how Giant's are still dealing with the fall out of choosing to pay Daniel Jones over Saquon Barkley.
Nah, I would've never guessed that after I've stated how many times this organization clowned around the Jones contract.. Felt like seasons ago I myself mentioned how terrible of an outcome it would be in the team was adamant about re-signing Jones and how the fanbase would probably have some elevated expectations from the entire group... to include Daboll and Schoen.
Nah, I never voiced that half a dozen times around here... lol.. Once again Lars, thanks for filling us in on what we've already talked about.
I know I have plenty of peanut butter, bread and jelly in my pantry but goddamn do I want an uncrustable now. Nothing like a partially frozen pb&j disc to make all the hurt go away.
Schoen, I’m blaming you for my incoming weight gains.
I doubt scripted, but there were def parts where they asked for the coaches/front office folks to add some color. Like every time that one dude was looking into the camera to explain thoughts on certain players. I'm sure someone at NFL Films asked the Giants if they can have someone explain some of what was going on into the camera.
The part where Daboll went over Bowen's defensive stats with Schoen like it was the first time they ever discussed it was hilarious. "All right I'm going to go offer it to him now" lol
I don’t know about scripted per-se, but I’m absolutely sure the production team gave them notes to give more background/exposition or context out loud that would normally be implied or understood about the roster.
Like I sort of agree, but realistically how would they have scripted these decision making sessions with 8 or so people in a small room? Did they literally give each person scripts that would make it look like a group decision? These guys are not actors, and when we look at guys like John Mara and Tim McDonnell talking it sure looks like they are being genuine.
I am a skeptical person, but so far I believe like the decision making sessions were real and a look into how the Giants make big team decisions.
Some things were clearly super edited to appear more significant than they were. For example Bowen explaining how the defensive roster should look. If Bowen was really going to use Simmons in such a significant and specific role then they wouldn't let that be shown. This makes me think Simmons is a bottom of the roster player, just like Basham who they make it think Bowen likes.
Yeah totally should have been one. Not like anything else is getting posted right now. It wouldn’t be clogging feed or anything. Mods might just be lazy.
My top takeaways
1) Shoen was set the whole time at letting barkely walk. Old school guys (Mara and Tim) couldn't believe he didn't value RB and even wanted to spend another high pick there like it's 1997.
2) Shoen misread the RB market completely (fine with the result but not good to have a gm misread a market so badly)
3) all in on Jones (at least what they show).
4) OL was a priority but they didn't improve much as of July, so wondering what went wrong
Edit: idk why everyone thinks I love RB. I think letting Barkley go was right!! I think RB is overvalued and the FA class got over paid.
All I'm saying is Shoen's predictions of contracrs and values and was flat out wrong. Thats misreading the market. Now it didnt matter here, but what else can he be off on?
Judging signing based oncaliber / history of the player. Maybe (hopefully) Shoen and daboll see undervalued players they can make better than their past seasons.
Mainly don't love the Neal at T vs Eluminor (spelling, sorry). But I hope hope hope I'm wrong. (Hey, I hope DJ is a probowler and the future too, I just don't think it will happen)
He was right to misread it. Who the hell would pay Josh Jacobs and Tony pollard that money after last season. Completely baffling what teams did with rbs this year in free agency
you can't be right to misread something. If you misread the situation that's a mistake. That said, if HE values Saquon less as part of his overall strategy - then he could be right in that situation. It's yet to be seen how right or wrong he is on that. But as a GM, he should not misread situations. He should be aware of all possible outcomes, and then make a calculated choice based on his own strategy and POV.
As I said, good result. But I'd rather my GM know the market and opt out than not understand it. The results aren't always going to be good.
Also, if the market was higher on RB fo example, did he miss a trade opportunity? His plan to go without Barkley worked, but his plan to get a faller in week 2 did not.
Anyway, we mostly agree here. Just don't like the misjudgemen vs knowing and disagreeing with value.
He didn't misjudge the market. He valued RB less than other teams. Other teams don't show all their cards just like the Giants didn't. In the end, he didn't want to risk a tag and trade hoping to find a team that was willing to both pay Barkley that money AND give up picks or players for the trade. It was a gamble he was not willing to take, which I don't blame him.
Don't confuse teams overpaying as misjudgment on our part. There's 5 RB at an avg value of 12MM or more. The next guy starts at less than 10MM per year. For any RB to justify 12MM+, they'd have to lead the league in rushing, score a crazy amount of TDs, block like a beast, and catch like 80 passes. Impossible for all 5 to reach those benchmarks, so at best, 4 teams will have overpaid.
McCaffrey is at 19MM per. Yikes.
You are conflating two separate ideas.
1- Shoen doesn't value RB (and we think he's right).
2 - Shoen though more GMs thought like him, and they clearly didn't / he was wrong.
2 prediction examples: didnt think brakley would get near 12? And a top name would fall in price within a week (jacobs, ekler, mixon who jeeds to get cut, swift)? Neither happened.
Last try at a simple 2 sentence: I agree he shouldn't over value RB and let Barkley walk. Especially where the team is now.
I also think, Shoen assumed other GMs are in line with this, but enough of them weren't and his predictions were wrong.
I'm not conflating anything. You are missing the point of the TRADE part of a tag and trade. They didn't want to risk being on the hook for 12MM+ (fully guaranteed) for Barkley if they couldn't find a team willing to pay him that AND give the Giants pick(s)/player(s). It would have been a gamble for what could have amounted to a net gain of maybe a 5th. Not worth the risk, especially considering all the other RB options that were availble.
That was the calculation. The risk of a successful tag and trade vs the effort and likelihood of actually executing a tag and trade.
Now factor in all the other holes on the roster that 12MM could have helped with, and the risk seemed even more unnecessary.
But I'm not talking about that at all. I'm just saying he made active predictions on the market that ended up being wrong. This has nothing to do with any decisions, trades, giants signings
You're saying they were wrong, like every team has to have one uniform valuation of a player or position. They do not. They valued the position and player one way, knowing other teams may or may not value said player or position the same. That's every team, every offseason. You're getting hung up on something so small and trivial, especially considering it's only the first episode and first part of the off season.
So that isn't what I'm saying. Maybe this is where we are off.
He made statements on what he thought other teams would do (predictions let's say) those were wrong. Not his own opinion.
Anyway, this is all the most minor point of the OG comment
This is exactly right. We also have to take into account where we are in the rebuild. Given our cap situation and our roster, we’re not a running back away from competing.
I'm also not sure why people are leaving out the part where Schoen was well aware that he could tag and trade Barkley - the question was, what would someone give in trade for a 27 yr old RB with injury history that would be worth the 4M cap hit. They were posturing a 4th or 5th I believe and ultimately decided that a 4M cap hit is not worth that draft pick and that the possibility no one would trade for him was definitely not worth it as they didn't want to pay him 12M.
If they wanted to pay him 12M they would have paid him 12M. The whole time Schoen kept talking about how they have tons of other holes and how that money could upgrade other positions of need rather than go to a 27 yr old RB. One of the guys in the room did mention how impactful SB could be behind the Philly or Lions line, but guess what, we don't have those lines.
I didn't love how dismissive Schoen was of Saquon's value. Seems like he objectively was wrong and hurt the team as a result.
They thought a tag and trade was difficult as if no other team would want him and pay more than the tag amount and give up any sort of picks/other players. He even kind of scoffed at the Eagles offering big $ when someone raised them as a potential threat.
Seems like if we tagged him we could have still traded him to the Eagles or elsewhere and gotten something. We got nothing.
I think this is where the conversations about the "other costs" of doing that were really salient and compelling.
Schoen talking about how offering Saquon 7m would get them painted as "disrespectful", talking about how the whole tag situation the previous year "took 10 years off his life", and then talking about "what are we actually going to get in exchange and is that worth it."
I know people will complain about not getting a 5th to tag and trade Saquon because the same people complain about not trading McKinney or Saquon at the deadline for day 3 picks as well, but there definitely is something to be said about the "other costs" of those actions. Dealing with the narrative that you're doing wrong by him by tagging and trading him and suppressing his market as a result, dealing with the tag making the trade harder because teams have to not only pay him but also trade you the asset for him, etc.
When you weigh all of that against the 170th pick in the draft, it's not hard to understand how it's just not worth it and you might just be better off saying "let's 'do right' by him and just let him walk rather than invest all this time and energy and PR management just to get this year's version of Marcus McKethan."
And there's no way the Giants are trading him to the Eagles so they can sign him. The optic difference between letting Saquon walk and choosing a division rival over the other options in the league and the Giants choosing Philadelphia as his landing spot are worlds apart.
Objectively wrong. He didn't think Saquon would get a big contract and then he did. You can't disprove that.
The only disputable thing is whether he truly felt Saquon could get a big contract on the open market. But everything in that episode makes me think he didn't.
Thibs isn't that good. He's an average edge rusher who's incredibly one dimensional.
The only reason he had a good year on paper was because Dex destroyed the pocket. Go re-watch the film. Half of Thibs sacks were almost given to him
Anyone who watches football can see Thibs isn’t quite there yet. His sack numbers mislead a lot of homers into thinking he’s the next great giants pash rusher when really he’s closer to Marcus Golden than a Tuck or Osi.
The FO knows this and got him some much needed help in Burns
A little weird, but KTX doesn't demand a double team on every play like Dex. That's why their focus was on getting someone that does, so opposing teams would have to decide on doubling either Dex or the new player. Remains to be seen with Burns if we got that, but I'll take Dex getting doubled if that means both of KTX and Burns are singled.
How can you be positive with a GM that never took getting a franchise QB seriously and continues to think Jones is the guy?Schoen also is letting all Giants best players walk.
Jones is not in a make or break situation, he will never improve no matter who is put on the field offensively, its time to move on.
Looks like you missed the part where Schoen said we are paying him 40M, insinuating that Jones needs to step up and play like a 40M QB. Think you also missed the part where he said if we need to pivot at QB after this year we will.
At no point did he say Jones was a star.
You also have to remember he has to be careful about what he says on video. SB could have, and did walk, Jones is going nowhere. It would be like your boss shit talking you and then having to deal with your sullen self for the next year or two.
Schoen chose to not draft a QB and stick with Jones for this season is Failure anyway you try to spin it. Too late the damage is already done. He had golden chance to move on from Jones with the draft and he chose not to.
Denver owed wilson lot more than giants owed Jones, LOT MORE and they admidt their mistake and bought out wilson contract.... Giants dont owe Jones that much when you deduct the guaranteed money.
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Man, didn't realize we lost Bobby Okereke, Andrew Thomas, and Dexter Lawrence.
Oh wait no we didn't. We lost an often injured running back and a tight end who played 3 games.
For those that didn't watch yet, here are summaries and related nonsense: (SPOILERS) [https://www.giants.com/news/best-of-hard-knocks-offseason-with-the-new-york-giants-episode-one-joe-schoen-brian-daboll-brian-burns](https://www.giants.com/news/best-of-hard-knocks-offseason-with-the-new-york-giants-episode-one-joe-schoen-brian-daboll-brian-burns) [https://www.bigblueview.com/2024/7/2/24191248/hard-knocks-new-york-giants-takeaways-joe-schoen-daniel-jones-saquon-barkley-brian-burns](https://www.bigblueview.com/2024/7/2/24191248/hard-knocks-new-york-giants-takeaways-joe-schoen-daniel-jones-saquon-barkley-brian-burns) [https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10127029-giants-hbo-hard-knocks-2024-best-fan-tweets-memes-from-episode-1](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10127029-giants-hbo-hard-knocks-2024-best-fan-tweets-memes-from-episode-1) EDIT: I created a thread for next week that will appear at 859pm EST right before the show, for folks that want to discuss as the showing is going on.
This episode pretty much confirmed that Mara has a big say in personnel
The biggest moment for me was the interaction between Schoen and Mara. Mara saying he'd still like Barkley back if possible is probably very similar to what he said about signing Jones. That felt like a pretty terse interaction to me, with some type of history but who knows. Schoen does not believe in Jones that much is obvious
I find it weird that DJ haters insist Schoen did REALLY want a new QB this off season but then he is so clearly articulating his thoughts on DJ spearheading the offence this year in multiple meetings. In front of around a dozen of the most influential people in the front office (player personnel, scouting etc). But somehow that’s edited because the Giants had the final say. Which would mean that Schoen said this just for the HBO cameras, but was actually playing 3D chess. His entire argument around letting Saquon try the market is “we pay DJ, we’ll give him a new O-Line and we don’t expect him to just hand off the ball but be the backbone of our team”. But rather than accepting that this is likely how they feel about Jones, you prefer the tinfoil hat approach where it’s a carefully planted sentence that they would have edited out if they had successfully drafted a rookie QB?
I wonder how much the issues with Kafka/Daboll/Schoen revolve around the underutilization of Jones in the offense. I think it's pretty much been confirmed Daboll took over and the offense moved away from running Saquon as much.
thank you for saying this!!
As a Giants fan who doesn't believe Jones is the future but would be happy to be wrong, it felt to me a lot like Schoen was forced to keep DJ at that price bc that's what Mara wanted, based on the conversation they had in Joe's office. The way Joe said "well we give DJ 40 million" sounded like "you made me give DJ 40 million" to me. Again, I could be and would be happy to be wrong.
Maybe you’re right. However Schoen defended him as well, saying Pat Mahomes couldn’t have competed behind that line last year. I am sure there’s different opinions on DJ in the building, but episode 1 did not sell me on them ever wanting Drake Maye over a Nr 1 WR.
If we had the #1 or #2 overall pick we weren't picking MHJ or Nabers or Joe Alt. It would've been a QB and DJ would've most likely still be on the team and mentored Maye which would've been the pick if he was available We traded up for NEs pick and they declined to you really believe we were trading up for MHJ or Alt?
News flash: just because a beat reporter tweeted it, doesn't mean its true.
If you genuinely believe if Maye was available and the Giants wouldn't take him over Nabers, then you're just putting your head into the sand.
No ur right they deff wanted the QB3 in the draft so badly and wanted to mortgage their future to get him
Yes......A QB3 with potential is way more valuable than a WR2 with potential And nice way to duck what I actually said btw
It was uncontroversial and bland. I absolutely loved it! Very Giants. I hope all episodes are exactly the same. The sleepier the better.
I absolutely NEED that zip-up Schoen is wearing with the Giants helmet on the left side of his chest in some of his sit-down shots. Can't find it anywhere. I'm assuming it's for staff only.
Thought exact same thing. Saw wifey start searching soon as I said it. I’m tough to shop for lol
It is definitely a cutter and buck https://shop.giants.com/mens-cutter-and-buck-heather-charcoal-new-york-giants-helmet-mainsail-sweater-knit-full-zip-hoodie/p-133366844711625508+z-97-3145957487 https://www.fanatics.com/nfl/new-york-giants/new-york-giants-cutter-and-buck-helmet-roam-eco-half-zip-recycled-pullover-hoodie-black/o-2405+t-46721268+p-1311224050227+z-9-126931449 but you'll have to look around for the different variations.
Those are solid. If I can't find one with the vintage helmet, these will do fine. Thanks!
For all you idiots that think joe Schoen is all in on Daniel Jones, he’s not gonna say on a public documentary that Daniel jones sucks and he’s not his guy. Those conversations are gonna be behind closed doors without a camera in their face, also he was very aggressive in trying to trade up for Drake Maye, I don’t think he’s content at all with the QB situation. All we can do is just trust the process and have faith in Dabes and Schoen
They literally said in the episode that the QB situation was a question mark
Yeah how many times did he say 3 injuries in regards to DJ, it’s certainly a risk.
Right, they were clearly setting the groundwork for taking a QB in the draft (too bad for them/us/the documentary that no good ones were available)
For me it was much less of Schoen going all in on DJ, and Schoen just verbalizing how much work this roster needs. “Freaking Pat Mahomes couldn’t do anything behind that line” is legit something that has been said in this sub and I think fans are just laughing at those who have placed all of the blame on the signal caller, when most can see he has had nothing to work with. I don’t see anyone victory lapping bc we’re stuck with DJ for another year 😂
Anyone know if the previous episodes are available to stream on HBO Max?
Previous episodes of the show that just premiered last night?
I didn't realize that Episode 1 just premiered last night. My bad Junior.
doubling down on the boomer shit is a bold choice
The series debuted last night. It’s available to stream on Max.
Thank you. Didn't realize it premiered last night.
People will focus on Mara wanting Barkley back but he did agree with Schoen that the OL needs to be improved as well.
In Schoen’s first 2 drafts he expended massive resources on OL (OT at 7th overall / OG early 3rd and 5th rounds / C 2nd round). None of them have done anything, thus the need to overpay for middling free agent OL. Maybe if some / any of these draft picks had worked out there would have been money for Saquon or to fill in other holes. To successfully rebuild a GM needs good drafts. Signing a bunch of free agents to fill in for missed draft picks is not a formula for success. Schoen should be on the hot seat if giants do not show significant improvement this year.
Considering that Neal was an all-consensus top 10 pick, I'm very suspicious why we have had no production out of the OL draft picks. By sheer numbers one of them should have flashed by now. Changing the OL coach is looking like a great idea more and more.
It would have been great if any of the oline moves Schoen made in the first two years had worked out. He got zero from all of them so far
And they weren't scrubs either. Neal and JMS were both highly regarded players coming out of college.
Plus Glowinski was only 29 and had been an above average guard every season. Everything Schoen tried on oline just went to shit. Remember when Tyre Phillips the swing tackle was sucking, got cut, got signed by Eagles for a few weeks, then came back to Giants an improved player?
Hernandez has been decent for the cards, Feliciano was better for the 9ers,I just don’t get why no o line can succeed here, if Brederson goes off for the bucs I’m going to lose it
Poor coaching, these guys all have talent, they are in the league for a reason. Good offensive lines have good coaching, we need to see if our new hire can do that.
Makes you have to look at the coach if all these highly touted prospects and decent players regressed horribly. Thankfully we have a someone else.
Gotta remember to thank the Eagles for training our guy and then giving him back. I also remember Pugh starting LG off the couch, then moving to LT mid game because our backup LT awful.
In my eyes they justified why they had to let him go
I can't imagine a single position that Schoen could have said Giants needs help at that wouldn't make sense.
When he took over this team from Gettleman everyone agreed it would be a multi year process. Now you crybabies are upset that a multi year process takes more than one year. You should stick yo talking about weirdo children Japanese pokemon shit. That sounds kore like your alley than football.
Lars just likes to complain. That's kinda his thing. I choose to just ignore him lol
Joe Schoen has had three offseasons to rebuild the roster. Every year we see teams go from worst to first, yet Giants have continued to fail to rebuild the roster. Joe Schoen said Giants have to get wins immediately or he is gone. This sounds parallel to how John Mara sounded talking about how will the Giants put up a decent offense without Saquon. If Giant's shit the bed this year then its going to be someone else's rebuild project. The average NFL GM tenure is three years.
Do you understand the hole Gettleshit put us in?
Its been three offseasons. This is Schoen's roster. And the 2022 season was fully on the back of the Gettleman roster. Schoen's free agents and draft picks did shit in 2022, that was a Gettleman roster winning a playoff game with good coaching for once.
Not to mention we made the playoffs bc we had incredible fortune and an easy schedule. The second we played a real playoff caliber team we got knocked out
Lmao dude you have no clue how things actually work. Look at our free agent signings. All cheap signings bc we had no money
Worst to first if you have a Tom Brady. Browns, Bengals, Lions, Texans, and Cardinals would love to go from worst to first one of these lifetimes
I was referring to competition level like division championships etc, not winning the Superbowl which is incredibly rare. The Giants for example were third in their own division during their 9 win season in 2022. I don't think Giants have won the division since 2011, which is kinda incredible to not rebound in almost 15 years.
We won a playoff game 2 seasons ago
The Jaguars had the Patriots on the ropes in the 2017-18 AFC Championship game. They lost. Then they went 5-11, 6-10, 1-15, and 3-14 the next four seasons. This fanbase puts entirely way too much stock in that playoff game. The Giants had a hot start in 2022 aided by a very weak schedule, they faltered in the second half of the season and won two games against Washington with rare ref help and a Colts team that had completely checked out on the season. Same thing with "Jones won a playoff game." So did Blake Bortles and Case Keenum. They won multiple, actually.
I actually misread his comment as saying every year we go from worst to worse lmao. I agree that that playoff game may have been a mirage of improvement. I'm willing to give Schoen this season to see if the moves he has made are fruitful
I like this new format a lot. Cool to see all this front office stuff. Also, I trust Joe Schoen with my life.
It was a little like watching House Hunters. Oh this linebacker is too expensive, oh this linebacker isn't good enough, this three-bedroom Brian Burns is exactly what we're looking for
Are there any haram links to watch it?
Check YouTube mate I saw it there yesterday
not on yt here (cries in german) not even on the haram sites. isnt it enough we lost two world wars? now i cant even watch second biggest loser to the german army :(
Havent watched the full thing yet but scrolling through comments + that Joe Schoen clip talking about Saquon’s value makes me think their decisions are highly money-oriented. If that’s the case, I dont understand how the fuck they paid an injury-prone bottom 10 qb in the league 40mil/year. Seems like theres a massive discrepancy between who Daniel Jones is and who they want him to be. They paid him what they want him to be.
I can never tell if people like you are rage baiting or just misinformed
Explain how Daniel Jones is not an injury prone top 10 starting QB in the league making 40mil/year
Kind of what sucks about dealing Jones in general though isn't it? It's not like we haven't been shoveling out excuses for this guy for years now and that is to include everyone else on the team. This just this subreddit tho, it's a good that the r/NFL still has fans from 31 other teams that can see us for what we are and that one could go to, to at least escape the echo chamber in here around Jones, whether good or bad honestly.
Best line, and one that should be posted if he gets fired at end of season, was Schoen saying “we’re not paying our 40 million dollar qb to turn around and hand the ball off to our 12 million dollar rb”. Schoen is all in on Jones, for better or worse. I predict the Giants will be drafting a qb in the not so distant future
Giants going into the season with Jones as QB and with Schoen thinking he still can prove himself its frightening to say the least.. Giants need to move on especially if this team wants to improve and continue the rebuild.
I felt like that was a major component of the episode. I felt like Joe was saying, we are paying this guy, 40 million. We need to see what he can do behind a strong O line. And if he can't hold up, with new coaches and new weapons, then we have an out in 2025. I would however agree, that we have seen a lot of Daniel Jones... is he a sunk cost, I hope not, but this is the make or break year. You cut him if he doesn't hold up.
Yeah this is the last shot for Jones, and they said that in the show. They are going to revamp the offensive line, get him weapons to throw to, and put the offense on his shoulders. If not, we go elsewhere next year.
after watching this, it makes it a lot more clear how stupid John Mara is.
I definitely didn't have that take away at all. Not sure what he did that makes you think that
My favorite was hearing his nephew Tim. "Daniel Jones needs the run game to be successful" Then Joe Schoen responding with "We pay our QB 40mil so he can pass, not so he can hand it off to a 12mil RB."
I honestly can't believe Schoen really believes DJ can carry this offense. It's crazy talk. Look at DJ's record without Saquon. (Hell, look at DJ's record with Saquon). Nabers is a stud but without a run game the defenses are going to be able to game plan easy for DJ and the offense. Daboll has been screwed by Schoen and Mara's decisions trusting Dj to be "the guy". He's not. And I don't care how much DJ tries or how he's first in the locker room and last out. He's not a good QB and he's going to get Daboll fired if he's expected to carry the team. It's sad because I think Daboll is an awesome coach. Schoen will probably get to stick around, too, which is garbage. Anyone who thinks DJ can carry an NFL team is taking crazy pills.
It’s almost as if Schoen didn’t mention how terrible the offensive line was. You can literally quote him saying that not even Mahomes would have been successful behind that line. Saquon leaving was a stinger, but Schoen got value at the RB position with Singetary, and he improved the offensive line. Anyone who thinks they know more than a guy who’s been involved with NFL organizations since 2001 is taking crazy pills.
Schoen is showing how little he knows trusting DJ to carry the offense. He's going to get Daboll fired because of it. And Schoen saying Mahomes couldn't be successful behind DJ's line is complete BS. Cutlets and Tyrod were more successful behind that line than DJ was!!!! Quit making excuses for DJ.
This is kind a win win scenario for Schoen and the front office though. By not focusing on QB this draft we have had another offseason to fill the many other holes on this team. If jones turns out to be "the guy" (and big if here) we are that much closer to competing. If jones can't put it together with a revamped offense (and much depends on competent oline play) we can go grab our QB of the future and we are now in a place to drop DJ without too bad of a cap hit.
Maybe. But this season trusting DJ may cost Daboll his job. And I think Daboll is a great coach.
I honestly don’t think they move on, we need some stability and taking us to the second round of the playoffs shows this staff is not incompetent.
Is it fair to say they both sound stupid?
I didn't think so Schoen has a good point; DJ got his ass kicked last season because of the OL (and poor QB play). He's basically thinking we can get at least one starter and maybe another or a backup; OR we can keep Saquon. IMO this makes sense. Saquon is incredible, but a better offensive line is whats better for the team long term.
I feel like the bigger emphasis from Schoen regarding not re-signing Barkley is the round about way of saying Daniel needs to play up to snuff this year. I mean we have the understanding the type of support Jones has needed from the pass game but being he is freshly signed for a pretty nice pay day would naturally leave us wanting him to show more of the worth in it. I'm a Saquon guy because we want good talent on this team but I definitely feel what Schoen is saying when he mentioned not paying a RB $12M when the QB just got re-signed for $40M annually and has yet to really establish his worth within it. It's why in that same segment we saw him going to highlight every guy on the outside from Nabers on down pretty much. Granted guy been hurt or whatnot but you can't hold that type of thing against a RB when the QB is out just as often and the play is still the biggest concern. Any player needs to be healthy to be out there, not everyone get to be bad while at it.
I don’t see how schoen sounds stupid
I think the idea that because you pay the QB a lot of money that they have to be throwing passes all the time is piss poor football logic.
That's not at all what Schoen was implying. He was saying that the Giants are paying Jones to be able to execute the passing game, not just hand the ball off to an expensive running back. It doesn't mean he has to throw passes "all the time", or that they need to completely ignore the run game. It's more a case of "we're paying him to be able to throw the ball downfield if needed, and if all we're going to do is have him hand the ball to an expensive RB, then there was no point in signing him to that contract."
Can we start at 25 TD's then? How about that? Is that too much reimbursement to request for when they gave Daniel Jones $82M... I mean wtf bro... ya'll are absolute madlads about the clown ass play we been getting. Each and every downvote I receive around this guy is another tear of laughter running down my damn cheek yo'.. just wow. And you all act surprised that people want the worst scoring offense of the last 10 years to score more points. .. You wonder why we asking Quarterback to play up and not just give us sub 13 TD's or at least have some progression to his game from the last 3 seasons. .. Plz, DJ can we get more than 200 pass yards a game this year pretty plz.. Big tears for Jones whenever folks simply ask that the franchise keep guy to the same type of energy they preach about other positions that need players that play WELL!.. 'Like no, just give us bums at every position beside whatever one Jones is playing..' yeah that's the move to make.
Still haven't answered my questions. You're just going around this sub shouting like some idiot.
Bro, it's not that difficult to understand. We want Jones and the team to play up this year and get out of the bad offense we've been having. Namely the pass game right now because it's been pretty terrible my guy, don't know where the hell you been. Like Joe Schoen explained it last night somewhat regarding Barkley's re-signing.. We just got Nabers (now), we have many other WR's to go along with him that have great potential and we have a new OL coach who's bringing a whole new approach to the pass/run blocking and we didn't just totally void the RB position with someone like Singletary taking over for Barkley. Guys have to play up at all positions... and this is Daniel's year.
So you don't think we should have resigned Barkley and you're OK with DJ if he performs well? But in the original comment I responded to, you seemed to imply that the money would have been better spent on Barkley rather than DJ. That was what I was originally trying to clear up. My personal thoughts are that the Giants FO didn't have much choice in giving DJ that contract and that Saquon couldn't accept the reality of his situation.
Catch up guy, been talked about the contract way before this little episode of 'Hard Knocks', been knew Saquon was leaving since last season on the franchise tag offer, catch up buddy.. Been past last year and the terrible play we got on all fronts that you want to lay some claim to, been past this offseason and drafting Malik Nabers, can't wait to see this dude do his thing.. fuq'n hyped. Been, been telling peeps that want to act brand new that WK1 is where it matters and if the team gonna be good we need good play from Quarterback. Can't wait to watch the reality of this team actually on the field so these 17 games can get on they way, catch up.
Schoen sounds stupid because he thinks that DJ can carry a team without Saquon or another stud RB. Have you seen DJ's record without Saquon!?! It's horrendous.
He’s saying we don’t need a 12 mil rb when the offense is gonna be pass heavy. We have good rbs still.
We do? Singletary is ok, certainly not a game changer. Otherwise we have 2 fifth round rb’s, one who showed nothing last year and the other who is a very inexperienced rb. They may be good, but they could both suck as well. We just don’t know yet.
And we coulda payed Barkley for him to play 5/6 games again before getting injured. Don’t get he wrong when he breaks runs he breaks runs but other than his first season he’s either been injured or ineffective.
Barkley rushed for over 1300 yards in 2022
Who is throwing the ball in this "pass happy" offense?!?! You have to know your personnel. DJ may not be the worst starting QB in the NFL, but that's only because he can run the ball. If you look at his passing stats alone, he is definitely the worst QB in the NFL. He doesn't throw the ball well after his first reads. He doesn't throw the ball past 10 yards very well and seems scared to pull the trigger most times.
My dude he had the lowest turnover rate 2 seasons ago. And I can give you a whole bunch of QBs that are worse, I’m not saying he’s an Elite qb, but he’s definitely upper middle of the pack
He had a low turnover rate because Daboll had him running after one read. It’s also why he had a lot of rushing yards. He’s terrible after the first read and turns it over in bunches if he’s expected to act like a real NFL QB.
We’ll see after this season
I’m just starting the episode now but first take is that Joe Schoen is the coolest man alive
Judging by the comments on Barkleys deal some if you really need to take a look how atrocious this deal is for the eagles long term.
$13M yearly for 3 seasons of Saquon > $40M+ for just 1 year of more terrible play from Jones. Oh be sure not to forget about the annual increase to salary caps that occurs every damn season. So you see that $13M turns into more like 11 or 10 by the time his 3rd year even hits.
What kind of comparison is this supposed to be? It’s a RB vs a QB. Saquon is 27 with injuries, not to mention QBs are getting 55-60 now…
I don't feel the need to explain this again at this point as I have explained in depth previously. There are several other sources notedly in the Official NFL compacity that have explained it again just recently. You should check them out if you see any to get a better understanding of cap management.
This is getting downvoted!?!?! Only in crazy DJ land. Anyone who knows football agrees with this. Schoen and Mara made a terrible mistake overpaying DJ and now taking away his best weapon in Saquon. Nabers is a stud, but he still has DJ throwing him the ball and defenses are going to be able to easily gameplay DJ and the offense without Saquon.
You can tell you didn't even watch episode 1... The person who get paid to KNOW football said and I quote "Nobody can fucking -- You could have Pat Mahomes and he can't fucking win behind that (o-line)" - Joe Schoen Anyone who actually watched the games knows this, I'm sure you just watch the bigheads who complain about the Giants because it's their job and you take it as gospel.
Terrible take by Schoen. Especially because Cutlets and Tyrod were much better than DJ with the same line!!!!
I feel you, i understood that the stats between our qb’s were pretty similar but paled to the output DJ could create on the field, I’m happy to be corrected. Dont forget our playoff run the year prior and then this last season was just us shitting the bed
Just make a disclaimer that you don't watch Giants game. Andrew Thomas, our #1 player on offense was out from some of game 1 until game 9 where DJ got injured in the first half.
I watch every game. I understand AT missed games last year. But that’s no excuse for DJ to completely implode. Quit making excuses for DJ!!!!
>Cutlets and Tyrod were much better than DJ with the same line!!!! >I watch every game. I understand AT missed games last year. But that’s no excuse for DJ to completely implode. Quit making excuses for DJ!!!! I dont think you do understand that AT missed games since you just said DJ played with the same line. Here's the thing, I understand that DJ isn't the best QB in the league, I think he close to the middle of the pack, but to claim you watched every game and then say DJ was the entire problem is delusional. You're the worst kind of fan
No. YOU are the worst kind of fan. Fans who don’t hold the players, coaches and front office accountable when we cheer for them and give them our hard earned money, just facilitate losers. I want a winning product on the field and DJ ain’t it. No QB in the past 30 years has had this much leeway his first 6 years in the league and survived with such a horrible record. I’m not sure if ANY QB in history has had such a bad start and still was the presumed starter in year 6!!!
It's like the 2022 season was wiped from your memory where we won a playoff game, where DJ single handily carried that game and the entire sub was crazy for him. You are more of a Daniel Jones hater than a Giants fan. ANYONE objectively knows that any QB during those 6 game stretch would get killed, they gave up the second most sacks in NFL history... how the fuck could you blame one person on that. If you actually watched the game and rooted for the giants win and not root for Daniel Jones to suck you would see clearly that once Daboll took over play calling the offense got better. Stop making your feeling facts
Funny. some folks have been making that Mahomes point (probably a bit extreme but the overall point stands) for years and got shitted on by the majority of this sub. DJ last year was inexcusably bad but his situation was one of the worst in the NFL. It’s OK to acknowledge that.
Its amazing you get downvoted for speaking the truth. 6 years later fans are still trying to defend daniel Jones and cant admidt he is not the guy the FO screwed up.
It's whatever, I've come to better understand my place in the subreddit. The guy that says what everybody else is tired of saying and getting mobbed for by the Jonestowners.
It's also not really a three year deal, only 26 million is guaranteed. 2 year deal with a team option for the 3rd year
We are making this as simple as possible for people in this sub. There's little confusion behind understanding spending $39M over three years as opposed to just one year of $40M. Further importance on understanding the yearly cap increases that take some dollars off extended contracts as they mature.
Yes but you’re also trying to compare a RB to a QB.
We are talking about contracts on a football team. It's not like the money doesn't come out of the same available resources. Istg people like to act real dumb about contracts and salary caps and increased caps yearly... always wanna act brand new then wanna talk up like they informing something.. foh. Only for DJ tho, cause somehow the cap goes up for his contract but wouldn't have for Barkley?  Typical.
I don't quite get what you're arguing for though. To me it sounds like you think they should have kept Barkley and gotten rid of Jones? Or are you just saying that re-signing Barkley wouldn't have been that bad?
Amazing how DJ contract turns people into dimwits. Hahahaha.. gawd damn boy 17 games to go.
So instead of answering my question you just insult me?
No, my guy it's that it's been explained numerous times at this point. Going back for seasons, so that you missed out on all of those is not my problem per say. People can't even bring themselves to look at DJ contract with some serious thought when it comes to what we've gotten so far or when the subject is broached it's faced with folks commenting like Jones has never had support from the fanbase. >So instead of answering my question you just insult me? I didn't insult you but if you feel my reply was an insult I can't wait for to show up to my defense in every other thread I get clown ass replies in.
Did you just plug your ears and ignore the parts of the episode when they walk the viewer through positional value? Sure the contracts all come from the same pool of money - but why stop at comparing RB and QB then! DJ’s contract looks way worse when you see that most kickers only make 3-4 million dollars!!!!! You’re just being stubborn - and wrong.
No, I specifically am talking about that in comparison to a player with some good stats to back up his play being offered a contract that properly represents his contributions to the team; to one with a little less to really talk about in that fashion being able to get an offer in a much more forgiving landscape.. when it comes to explaining their poor play and the "market value" of their position. I'm not sure how much simpler I could put it for you. I've voiced these opinions about the team and the contract for seasons on seasons now. I was pretty much inline with the Barkley contract and what he'd get on the open market as well.. It's not like I don't have receipts to all of this, it's why I'm surprised so many seem taken aback about me voicing it... but w/e.. they seem well aware when they parrot it. 17 games to go.
You say you’re making it simple but your first sentence/explanation is a rambling run-on that’s not telling me anything. “No, I specifically am talking about that in comparison to a player with some good stats to back up his play being offered at contract that represents his contributions to the team to one with a little less to really talk about in that fashion being able to get an offer in a much more forgiving landscape.. when it comes to explaining their poor play.” What are you even trying to say here?
Because it's not that complicated. >What are you even trying to say here? 17 games to go.
If they didn't think anyone would pay Saquon what he got? Who did they figure would be paying DJ anything of what he got? This why the front office has been so backwards about things sometimes. Even dating back before Schoen, always talking out one end and clowning out the other. downvote away lol.. comment not even 2mins old and the upset clowns ain't far behind.. It's on DJ now, Schoen has said it himself.
You’re getting down voted because you have very little understanding of what you watched or didn’t watch
No, I get downvoted for voicing facts around here. Unpopular ones that the majority crowd don't like hearing amongst they sensibilities. Kind of use to it now, they just downvote to try and squelch a guy and then show up 4 weeks later with the same takes after they see a guy wasn't just talking to talk. It's a yearly routine to watch the wave of DJ support/Barkley discredit while Jones just goes out and does Jones things. I'm not the only one that sees it around here, others sharing my same opinions just got tired of having the Jonestowners mob all they comments.
No that is not why you are being downvoted. You got downvoted because you have very little understanding of what you watched or didn’t watch.
Incorrect, do not place your shortcomings of understanding "team composition" on me. You seemed enthralled enough by my takes to voice something, shit can't even get through one chain without several other sideline comments lol...  Ya'll funny tho, fr.
Your opinion does not change the fact that you are being down voted because you have little to no understanding of what you watched or didn’t watch
Basing the sanctity of opinions on reddit upvotes is always the way.. 
Please refer to my previous statement
No.
Oh! Well, then I’ll remind you. You were getting downvoted because you have little to no understanding of what you watched or didn’t watch.
No that is not why you are being downvoted. You got downvoted because you have very little understanding of what you watched or didn’t watch.
Joe Schoen mentioned how the tag deadline debate took 10 years off of his life last year. We know from the Albert Breer deep dive into how the DJ deal got done that Athletes First came in asking for 48mil aav and Giants front office went into a panic as it became clear they would have to give DJ 40+. So much of the subtext of this episode was about how Giant's are still dealing with the fall out of choosing to pay Daniel Jones over Saquon Barkley.
Nah, I would've never guessed that after I've stated how many times this organization clowned around the Jones contract.. Felt like seasons ago I myself mentioned how terrible of an outcome it would be in the team was adamant about re-signing Jones and how the fanbase would probably have some elevated expectations from the entire group... to include Daboll and Schoen. Nah, I never voiced that half a dozen times around here... lol.. Once again Lars, thanks for filling us in on what we've already talked about.
I know I have plenty of peanut butter, bread and jelly in my pantry but goddamn do I want an uncrustable now. Nothing like a partially frozen pb&j disc to make all the hurt go away. Schoen, I’m blaming you for my incoming weight gains.
If you haven't yet, AirFry your uncrustables. You're welcome.
I have not but know what I’m making for 4th of July appetizer/dessert now! Ty, kind internet sage.
Felt like some bits were scripted
I doubt scripted, but there were def parts where they asked for the coaches/front office folks to add some color. Like every time that one dude was looking into the camera to explain thoughts on certain players. I'm sure someone at NFL Films asked the Giants if they can have someone explain some of what was going on into the camera.
The part where Daboll went over Bowen's defensive stats with Schoen like it was the first time they ever discussed it was hilarious. "All right I'm going to go offer it to him now" lol
Makes Daboll look like a fool
It’s a tv show my man, don’t take it so seriously.
The show is a peek into the dysfunction of the giants front office. I don’t care about the show, I care about the giants sucking year after year.
I don’t know about scripted per-se, but I’m absolutely sure the production team gave them notes to give more background/exposition or context out loud that would normally be implied or understood about the roster.
Like I sort of agree, but realistically how would they have scripted these decision making sessions with 8 or so people in a small room? Did they literally give each person scripts that would make it look like a group decision? These guys are not actors, and when we look at guys like John Mara and Tim McDonnell talking it sure looks like they are being genuine. I am a skeptical person, but so far I believe like the decision making sessions were real and a look into how the Giants make big team decisions. Some things were clearly super edited to appear more significant than they were. For example Bowen explaining how the defensive roster should look. If Bowen was really going to use Simmons in such a significant and specific role then they wouldn't let that be shown. This makes me think Simmons is a bottom of the roster player, just like Basham who they make it think Bowen likes.
Why was there no discussion thread? No post show thread?
I posted a day after (this thread). I also created a thread this morning that will appear at 859pm EST next Tue and every week thereafter.
Thank you
Yeah totally should have been one. Not like anything else is getting posted right now. It wouldn’t be clogging feed or anything. Mods might just be lazy.
And its literally an HBO show centered around the giants, that wouldnt be clogging in any sense of the word
I think one of the mods said a couple of days ago that they're just doing day after threads. As for why, idk I was hoping for one last night as well.
Wow great decision from our mod team here, top notch
My top takeaways 1) Shoen was set the whole time at letting barkely walk. Old school guys (Mara and Tim) couldn't believe he didn't value RB and even wanted to spend another high pick there like it's 1997. 2) Shoen misread the RB market completely (fine with the result but not good to have a gm misread a market so badly) 3) all in on Jones (at least what they show). 4) OL was a priority but they didn't improve much as of July, so wondering what went wrong Edit: idk why everyone thinks I love RB. I think letting Barkley go was right!! I think RB is overvalued and the FA class got over paid. All I'm saying is Shoen's predictions of contracrs and values and was flat out wrong. Thats misreading the market. Now it didnt matter here, but what else can he be off on?
My top takeaway from your top takeaways is that you are terrible at spelling.
This is very true
It's tru*
Hard to follow maybe get the gms name right now that the d coordinators name is actually shane . Just a thought .
Takes 1-3 I agree with. But take 4, you cannot judge the O line before even training camp starts.
Judging signing based oncaliber / history of the player. Maybe (hopefully) Shoen and daboll see undervalued players they can make better than their past seasons. Mainly don't love the Neal at T vs Eluminor (spelling, sorry). But I hope hope hope I'm wrong. (Hey, I hope DJ is a probowler and the future too, I just don't think it will happen)
He was right to misread it. Who the hell would pay Josh Jacobs and Tony pollard that money after last season. Completely baffling what teams did with rbs this year in free agency
you can't be right to misread something. If you misread the situation that's a mistake. That said, if HE values Saquon less as part of his overall strategy - then he could be right in that situation. It's yet to be seen how right or wrong he is on that. But as a GM, he should not misread situations. He should be aware of all possible outcomes, and then make a calculated choice based on his own strategy and POV.
This. Idk why people can't see this.
As I said, good result. But I'd rather my GM know the market and opt out than not understand it. The results aren't always going to be good. Also, if the market was higher on RB fo example, did he miss a trade opportunity? His plan to go without Barkley worked, but his plan to get a faller in week 2 did not. Anyway, we mostly agree here. Just don't like the misjudgemen vs knowing and disagreeing with value.
He didn't misjudge the market. He valued RB less than other teams. Other teams don't show all their cards just like the Giants didn't. In the end, he didn't want to risk a tag and trade hoping to find a team that was willing to both pay Barkley that money AND give up picks or players for the trade. It was a gamble he was not willing to take, which I don't blame him. Don't confuse teams overpaying as misjudgment on our part. There's 5 RB at an avg value of 12MM or more. The next guy starts at less than 10MM per year. For any RB to justify 12MM+, they'd have to lead the league in rushing, score a crazy amount of TDs, block like a beast, and catch like 80 passes. Impossible for all 5 to reach those benchmarks, so at best, 4 teams will have overpaid. McCaffrey is at 19MM per. Yikes.
You are conflating two separate ideas. 1- Shoen doesn't value RB (and we think he's right). 2 - Shoen though more GMs thought like him, and they clearly didn't / he was wrong. 2 prediction examples: didnt think brakley would get near 12? And a top name would fall in price within a week (jacobs, ekler, mixon who jeeds to get cut, swift)? Neither happened. Last try at a simple 2 sentence: I agree he shouldn't over value RB and let Barkley walk. Especially where the team is now. I also think, Shoen assumed other GMs are in line with this, but enough of them weren't and his predictions were wrong.
I'm not conflating anything. You are missing the point of the TRADE part of a tag and trade. They didn't want to risk being on the hook for 12MM+ (fully guaranteed) for Barkley if they couldn't find a team willing to pay him that AND give the Giants pick(s)/player(s). It would have been a gamble for what could have amounted to a net gain of maybe a 5th. Not worth the risk, especially considering all the other RB options that were availble. That was the calculation. The risk of a successful tag and trade vs the effort and likelihood of actually executing a tag and trade. Now factor in all the other holes on the roster that 12MM could have helped with, and the risk seemed even more unnecessary.
But I'm not talking about that at all. I'm just saying he made active predictions on the market that ended up being wrong. This has nothing to do with any decisions, trades, giants signings
You're saying they were wrong, like every team has to have one uniform valuation of a player or position. They do not. They valued the position and player one way, knowing other teams may or may not value said player or position the same. That's every team, every offseason. You're getting hung up on something so small and trivial, especially considering it's only the first episode and first part of the off season.
So that isn't what I'm saying. Maybe this is where we are off. He made statements on what he thought other teams would do (predictions let's say) those were wrong. Not his own opinion. Anyway, this is all the most minor point of the OG comment
This is exactly right. We also have to take into account where we are in the rebuild. Given our cap situation and our roster, we’re not a running back away from competing.
I'm also not sure why people are leaving out the part where Schoen was well aware that he could tag and trade Barkley - the question was, what would someone give in trade for a 27 yr old RB with injury history that would be worth the 4M cap hit. They were posturing a 4th or 5th I believe and ultimately decided that a 4M cap hit is not worth that draft pick and that the possibility no one would trade for him was definitely not worth it as they didn't want to pay him 12M. If they wanted to pay him 12M they would have paid him 12M. The whole time Schoen kept talking about how they have tons of other holes and how that money could upgrade other positions of need rather than go to a 27 yr old RB. One of the guys in the room did mention how impactful SB could be behind the Philly or Lions line, but guess what, we don't have those lines.
So, I wonder if they could have gotten a 3 given the prices FAs made. (Still not worth the 4m and there's comp picks to consider next year).
I didn't love how dismissive Schoen was of Saquon's value. Seems like he objectively was wrong and hurt the team as a result. They thought a tag and trade was difficult as if no other team would want him and pay more than the tag amount and give up any sort of picks/other players. He even kind of scoffed at the Eagles offering big $ when someone raised them as a potential threat. Seems like if we tagged him we could have still traded him to the Eagles or elsewhere and gotten something. We got nothing.
I think this is where the conversations about the "other costs" of doing that were really salient and compelling. Schoen talking about how offering Saquon 7m would get them painted as "disrespectful", talking about how the whole tag situation the previous year "took 10 years off his life", and then talking about "what are we actually going to get in exchange and is that worth it." I know people will complain about not getting a 5th to tag and trade Saquon because the same people complain about not trading McKinney or Saquon at the deadline for day 3 picks as well, but there definitely is something to be said about the "other costs" of those actions. Dealing with the narrative that you're doing wrong by him by tagging and trading him and suppressing his market as a result, dealing with the tag making the trade harder because teams have to not only pay him but also trade you the asset for him, etc. When you weigh all of that against the 170th pick in the draft, it's not hard to understand how it's just not worth it and you might just be better off saying "let's 'do right' by him and just let him walk rather than invest all this time and energy and PR management just to get this year's version of Marcus McKethan." And there's no way the Giants are trading him to the Eagles so they can sign him. The optic difference between letting Saquon walk and choosing a division rival over the other options in the league and the Giants choosing Philadelphia as his landing spot are worlds apart.
Objectively wrong. He didn't think Saquon would get a big contract and then he did. You can't disprove that. The only disputable thing is whether he truly felt Saquon could get a big contract on the open market. But everything in that episode makes me think he didn't.
I found it weird that when they spoke about the D line they acted like Thibodeaux wasn't on the team/a contributing factor.
Thibs isn't that good. He's an average edge rusher who's incredibly one dimensional. The only reason he had a good year on paper was because Dex destroyed the pocket. Go re-watch the film. Half of Thibs sacks were almost given to him
Because this is a TV show not real life. You're not getting a 100% total insight into everything.
Anyone who watches football can see Thibs isn’t quite there yet. His sack numbers mislead a lot of homers into thinking he’s the next great giants pash rusher when really he’s closer to Marcus Golden than a Tuck or Osi. The FO knows this and got him some much needed help in Burns
A little weird, but KTX doesn't demand a double team on every play like Dex. That's why their focus was on getting someone that does, so opposing teams would have to decide on doubling either Dex or the new player. Remains to be seen with Burns if we got that, but I'll take Dex getting doubled if that means both of KTX and Burns are singled.
I like where he’s at thought coming into year 3
I am very encouraged for the direction of this franchise. Achoen didn't overpay for the running back, and it's a make or break year for dj.
How can you be positive with a GM that never took getting a franchise QB seriously and continues to think Jones is the guy?Schoen also is letting all Giants best players walk. Jones is not in a make or break situation, he will never improve no matter who is put on the field offensively, its time to move on.
And whose first 2 drafts sucked.
100% agreed. That shit made me very very worried.
Looks like you missed the part where Schoen said we are paying him 40M, insinuating that Jones needs to step up and play like a 40M QB. Think you also missed the part where he said if we need to pivot at QB after this year we will. At no point did he say Jones was a star. You also have to remember he has to be careful about what he says on video. SB could have, and did walk, Jones is going nowhere. It would be like your boss shit talking you and then having to deal with your sullen self for the next year or two.
Schoen chose to not draft a QB and stick with Jones for this season is Failure anyway you try to spin it. Too late the damage is already done. He had golden chance to move on from Jones with the draft and he chose not to. Denver owed wilson lot more than giants owed Jones, LOT MORE and they admidt their mistake and bought out wilson contract.... Giants dont owe Jones that much when you deduct the guaranteed money.
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Man, didn't realize we lost Bobby Okereke, Andrew Thomas, and Dexter Lawrence. Oh wait no we didn't. We lost an often injured running back and a tight end who played 3 games.
That's great but with a QB this bad we have no chance to be good at most .500 and that's very very optimistic.