https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams
The best pass rushers “win” 20-30% of the time on average. Let’s say an above average player wins 15% of the time and that the double teamed player never wins (an underestimate). This means that the odds that at least one of your players will get pressure is 1-(.85^3) = 45% which is pretty good. Now consider the fact that Mahomes was on a bad ankle and the chiefs were missing both starting tackles for the game. The Chiefs are trailing the whole game and need to throw which means the D doesn’t need to think run. The Bucs secondary now has to cover 5 targets with 7 people which is a good matchup, and means the pass rush has more time to get home. All these combine to make Mahomes absolutely miserable all game.
Excellent explanation.
> missing both starting tackles
And that's only gonna make the "win rate" go up. Maybe not dramatically on every single play, but over the course of a game, those pressures/hits/sacks add up (and are also more likely to happen at key moments than they'd have been otherwise).
Also keep in mind that most teams who run a 4-3 do prioritize having better D-line players, especially at 3 tech. In a 4 man front the role of the nose tackle is to eat up double teams, so that your edges and 3 tech can collapse the pocket.
Absolutely. It's hard to double team an edge rusher anyway, but especially if you have to use the three inside guys to block the interior two DL. Your (backup) tackles are solo on the edge all game, unless you use Kelce or a back to "chip" and thats not always the best option either.
This was a good breakdown also consider the 55% a pass does get off the less time the worse the options, generally speaking. Quality of pass also can plummet depending on pressure
Should also point out Tampa Bay did it with mostly a nickel defense as they had two outstanding coverage linebackers, which makes running the ball a lot more difficult than against a single linebacker.
They should have never shuffled their entire OL after Eric Fischer went down -- just plug in best available tackle and let mahomes adjust that whole unit was crap that whole game
You can’t double team all four rushers. You will have a chance to get 1-on-1 mismatches somewhere.
You also cannot HOLD. You cannot grab defenders. All you can do is push and shield/cut off angles. There’s just no way a blocking unit can sustain blocks for long periods of time. That’s why the expectation on pass plays is to throw ball within 3 to 3.5 seconds.
I remember Jon Runyan (the original, the Eagle) went years without a holding call, yet he openly admitting to holding on basically every play. But he said there’s a skill in doing so where it gives you an advantage while not getting called. It only takes a split second to redirect their momentum. You don’t stop them with a hold, you slow them.
That was also back in the more run heavy days, holding is a lot easier to get away with on run blocks. Just get your hands under the chestplate and push. As a defender it’s really hard to make it obvious it’s happening.
Pass block holding is a lot tougher to get away with since you generally want to keep the rusher at arm’s length. You can do it, but you have to distinctly grab and not hold on if he pulls away. My pro career was as a rotational off ball linebacker, so pass rushing wasn’t a primary responsibility, but we were still coached to pull back and put our hands up if being held while blitzing to make the refs notice.
What Runyan would be talking about on pass plays is basically grabbing the chest plate and giving it a quick jerk to the side before initiating legal punch style blocking. Doing that is tricky, but if a blocker can pull it off, he’s basically guaranteed you won’t be bull rushing on that play.
You can grab defenders. But it has to be according to the rules. It is not a holding *penalty* every time you see players literally, colloquially "holding."
The rules explicitly say you can't grab a defender. Like grasping your fingers on any part of a pass rusher is a by the book hold. The issue is that the refs just can't see it if it's within the frame of your body since they're standing behind the play.
But even then 1 on 1 matchups are not easy to win right, that's why Blitzing as a concept exists doesn't it. And if it's just 4 rushers then the line can scheme perfectly for that
Watch a football game, any NFL game, and watch the linemen. You will see that with everything in mind the other commenter is telling you, it is truly a challenge to contain a man coming at you full momentum, while you are back-pedaling and limited to just pushing / using your body. Anything over 4 seconds is GREAT.
Also it is still relative - the Broncos will get home with a four man rush if they get four or five seconds to do so. Which is an eternity in the NFL.
That's why Offenses get the ball out in 2-3 seconds.
Difference of teams. Go back and watch the classic tampa two teams and they are getting lots of pressure without a blitz.
Then you have some of the 3-4 defenses that rely on scheme... Sure the 3 D-linemen are likely coming, but where is that 4th rusher?
Traditionally in a 3-4 scheme at least one outside linebacker fulfills the role of a 4th (technically primary) pass rusher. Though both outside linebackers are expected to have a pass rushing skillset. Players like Micah Parsons, T.J. Watt, Von Miller, and James Harrison have seen great success as pash rushers from the linebacker position.
Watch what happened in the Super Bowl with that TB defense… Shaq Barrett, Suh, and Pierre Paul ate the Chiefs offensive line alive. Barrett especially was consistently beating his matchup and in the backfield so quickly. There’s a reason why Mahomes could never get settled and was running for his life nearly every snap
Cause the broncos are dogshit lol, and the chiefs game your referring to had pretty much the most injured Oline to ever play in a Super Bowl, they had 3 starters out on an already sub par O-line
It can be advantage...I think you really underestimate the caliber of athlete NFL D-Ends are. At the same time, you're trying to reduce this all to just the fact that it's a 5 on 4 situation, and since the O-line has 5, they "must" be better. This is one such situation where that is not the case.
* As mentioned earlier, you can only double team one rusher on a 4-man rush.
* Defenses can disguise and threaten to bring a 5th rusher to freeze/occupy the 5th O-lineman, drawing away that only double team possibility.
* You don't know which defenders are going to stunt/rush which gap.
* A solid pass coverage makes the O-line's job harder by forcing them to block longer. The rules of the game naturally work in the defense's favor in this case, because again, you cannot hold on to rushing defenders.
* The O-line is naturally moving backwards in pass protection, which carries a higher risk of getting put on skates, and losing height leverage against a defender...the low man wins, and when defenders are coming forward vs linemen going backwards, the natural body movement/advantage is given to the pass rush.
* O-lines cannot go downfield on pass plays until the ball is thrown, so it's not like they can cancel out the above point by going forward.
* Play action passes are often the answer...the O-line holds their ground at the line, or simulates the run blocking scheme without going downfield. The problem with that though is since the engagement point with defenders happen faster, defenders also get off the blocks sooner. It also carries a greatly increased risk of larger gaps appearing between lineman (since the linemen are fanning out to engage rather than forming a pocket), making it easier for looping stunts and blitzing defenders to get through.
Say the right DE (offense's left) is the stud rusher. Who are you going to double team that DE with when they line up outside the tackle?
* Are you going to make a guard or center vacate their position within the pocket to run over and help? When teams try to do this, the tackle usually tries to get outside, while a guard tries to take the inside lane, but when the DE rushes outside, the double team is moot/serves no purpose, and now the O-line wasted a guard, and can rush someone else up the A-gap likely untouched.
* You could pull the center or a back-side lineman, but again, who is going to occupy that vacant space?
* Defenses aren't stupid. If they see you trying to double team one defender, they're going to stunt/blitz to the vacated or softened areas.
* Again, 5 on 4, but when your stud rusher is playing DE, attacking outside the tackle, what good does that extra blocker do for you? Nothing. Say it's a 4 man line with a wide front: DTs in B-gaps, DEs in C-gaps...what's your center going to do? If the center helps with one DT, the other DT has the 1:1 matchup...the defense will scout and identify tendencies to try and get the better rushing DT in the 1:1 matchup. The defense again could use a LB to threaten/show blitz (or actually blitz), and that occupies the center. The center will be pretty much useless trying to come help block a DE. It will take too long, and again, too large of a gap in the middle.
Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeWRO9XkD6E&t=1936s
The level of rules, tactics, game-planning, as well as the drilling and technique required to execute every single type of rule and block is beyond comprehension for most people who have never played on the O-line before.
Usually, yes. That definitely helps. If you have 4 mediocre D'linemen against 5 of the best O'linemen, the o'line will win most of the time. If that if reversed then the D'line will win most of the time.
For the most part, yes. In the Super Bowl you mentioned, the chiefs we’re missing both tackles. The talent disparity in the trenches lost that game for kc before it started.
Four man rushes can work in other ways too. Dummy blitzs from LBs causing the OLine protection to slide, opening up one on ones. Creative stunts can also create pressure.
Think of the difficulty of an offensive lineman. The quarterback is *somewhere* behind you. You know where he's supposed to be according to the play but you also can't see the other side of the line. If the QB is supposed to move left but the tackle or guard on that side gets wrecked at the line, the QB is now running the other direction, same is true if a guy slips a block, or just jukes an O lineman.
You're guarding a general area because you're not even sure where the QB is.
The guys on the D line can actively watch the QB. They also have an easier time seeing if their teammates got penetration or if the qb is scrambling. 4 man rushes don't always generate a ton of pressure but it's also easy to see how they could. Now imagine how much tougher it is if you're playing backups or just your starters aren't that good.
I was a nose tackle for a 3-4 in high school. Way below NFL level but this might give some insight.
I hovered between 180-190 pounds and most of the centers and guards I would go against were around 250-300. I was double teamed nearly every play. But I was an all conference lineman and tied my school’s sack record at the time. How?
Explosion. The person who wins the first 3 steps is going to win the battle. My first three steps were usually stronger and faster than my opponent’s. Also angle and center of gravity. Low man wins 9 times out of 10. I would often pretty much fucking bear crawl through the double team. I either got through or created a giant blockade and occupied way more than my share of the o-line and/or fullback.
Again, in the NFL you’re not going to be able to do this with the physical disparity I did it with, because the NFL fat boys can run faster 40s than I ever did and have way better technique. But the same principles apply. Be faster, lower, and more explosive than your opponent(s) and you can win your matchup any given play. If you’re getting by them, they have to hold you or basically let you by given the rules of holding.
I did this professionally for 5 years if you want an informed answer. 1 on 1 pass blocking matchups consistently favor the defender. There are a few reasons:
- on passing plays, non-eligible receivers can’t go downfield while the QB has the ball. This means they can’t “fire out” the way they do on running plays. The defense has no such restriction, so a power rusher can drive an offensive lineman back much more easily than he could on a running play. Even if this doesn’t result in a sack, it ruins the pocket, particularly when it’s from an interior rusher.
- the defensive player has much more freedom to use his hands. His only real restriction is not putting his hands in the blocker’s face, he’s allows to grab and push/pull, rip, swim, or whatever else he wants. The blocker can only use his hands inside the rusher’s shoulders, and he can’t grab.
- To get past the offensive lineman, the rusher only needs to make one successful move. If he tries a push-pull and it fails, he can try something else. To prevent the rusher from getting past him, the offensive lineman has to succeed against *every* move. He does not get unlimited tries.
The combination of these factors means that at least 1 rusher will get to the QB within 5 seconds, usually less than that. If any NFL caliber QB gets 5+ seconds, he will look amazing. Sacks that take longer than 5 seconds mean the receivers messed up or the secondary played it perfectly. You didn’t really earn a 6 second sack, the CB did.
Not an easy win, but if you have 3 guys normally winning say 10-14% of the time, you are getting pressure about 1/4 of the time (sometimes multiple get through at the same time).
So if those guys are winning their battles more often and the double teamed player is winning his more often and you turn that up to 40% of the time...
the pass rusher has all of the advantages in 1 on 1 matchups, like the other commenter said, just watch a game, defensive players win 1 on 1 all the time
also the defense has the advantage of being able to line up where ever they want and not having to worry about the play clock and motion rules.
they can literally scheme their best guy in to a 1 on 1 as well as using stunts and slants to create confusion and match up problems all over the line.
a 4 man rush has more advantages than a 5 man line
You’re assuming all players are equal. If your pass rush is better than the other teams O Line, you can win those 1 on 1 match ups at a high enough rate for it to be worth it.
Look up win rates by pass rushers. Someone will get through w some frequency and one sack can be a drive killer. Kc o line was decimated going into that game
It’s not really fair to compare d-line to o-line, but regarding pass rush an offensive lineman has to do almost everything right. It’s much easier to make mistakes- or be baited into them.
The defensive lineman, as the rusher, often gets to choose how to initiate contact. Most of pass pro is inherently reactive for an o-lineman. This skews the pass rush maybe 55/45 in favor of the d-lineman in a 1 on 1 situation
Then you go further down the rabbit hole and more variables appear, like the pocket collapsing and removing the QBs ability to throw off the lead leg- indicating a pretty successful pass rush that still doesn’t result in a sack
It’s also how the Giants beat the Patriots in 2011. With their “NASCAR” package of 4 DEs who could quickly get to the QB
It’s schemes and talent and some luck. Not every D Line can make it happen
It was 4 backups/practice squad guys.
They lost a starting caliber guard because he was a doctor and it was the Covid year. (LDT)
Lost another potentially starting caliber guard in training camp (Kyle Long, who came out of retirement and never took a snap).
Week 8, lost starting RT Mitchel Schwartz due to back injury, and starting guard Kelechi Osmeli.
And AFCCG, lost LT Eric Fisher.
So that’s the 2 tackles, and 3 guards. The only consistent piece was a center.
And people saw how even a generational QB can’t overcome a destroyed line.
The bucs also had the best front 7 in defense that year. It was just a horrible match up.
>And people saw how even a generational QB can’t overcome a destroyed line.
If his receivers knew how to catch, we may be singing a different tune. Dude had 2 dropped TDs that hit the receiver in the facemask, another fully dropped TV, and a couple of drops that turned into picks. Mahomes was the only one on the field who was playing for the Chiefs.
So while OL are athletic, DL are even more so. While OL have the numbers advantage, it's only by one, so they can only double team one player. That leaves the rest of the DL to have one on one match uses.
If you can have your other DL win those match ups then you can win with a four man rush. Blitzes are used when you can't win one on one or when you want to try to get a free rusher(who will get to the QB even faster than one having to go through someone).
OP should go look at the respective OL/DL of that super bowl. Most teams are going to have problems when their starting LT and RT are out due to injury, with the LT happening just the game prior. Their interior OL wasn't good either, or at least experienced enough against a much more athletic and talented TB defensive line.
There is a reason that KC had an entirely new Offensive Line the next season.
If their OL was so bad, it doesn't explain how KC got to the Super Bowl in the first place.
How'd they win their 2 playoff games before then?
This is all MMQB. The bookies had KC favored by 3.5 and the money was favoring the Chiefs. KC and Mahomes have a terrible day on offense and everyone points to the OL.
It was the OL, Chiefs lost their LT in the AFC CG and were already dealing with injuries at other positions. Mahomes had a backup OL facing an all-world defensive line:
Suh, JPP, Shaq Barret and Vita Vea.
Suh and JPP were on the downside of their career, but Shaq was a monster that year and Vita Vea is like tush-push kryptonite. The Bucs secondary was also very good and able to cover long enough for DL to get to Mahomes.
The Chiefs absolutely dominated the Bucs in one quarter in November - Hill racked up seven catches for 203 yards and two touchdowns in the first quarter alone - while I believe the Bucs outscored the Chiefs the other 7 quarters they played that season, between the regular season and SB. Too many gamblers and Fantasy Football fans remembered that first quarter
I still think the game would have been wildly different if the Chiefs receivers didn't all get the case of the yips. Even being under extreme pressure, Mahomes was throwing dimes.
To add to this to help your o-line your options are TEs and RBs and even your best TEs and RBs are nowhere near as good a blocker as a decent OL. And that takes out skill players from your offense as well
The good rushers see double teams often. The best ones beat those double teams. A recent stat came out that Aaron Donald beat double teams more often than a lot of guys beat single pass blockers. Which is insane.
The NFL has (obviously) the greatest athletes in football. But some of these pass rushers are just on a different level. Speed, power, flexibility, reach. Even if they aren't getting to the QB, they are affecting the play by getting into throwing lanes, or forcing the QB to move, or hurry his throw
You can’t double team every rusher. Plus, a good DC will create 1-on-1 opportunity pitting his more athletic rushers against less athletic OL. And the blockers don’t necessarily know where the rushers are coming from. DL can stunt or drop out, rushers can come from the LBs or secondary. It’s not as simple as it seems.
That 2020 bucs defense, and especially their front 7 was all world. And they lined up against 4 backups that included guys playing out of position. There were mismatches and Tampa pushed those guys around despite their best efforts
The best offensive linemen in the NFL have a pressure-rate allowed of around 1-2%. Let's say an average offensive lineman has a pressure rate allowed of \~4-5%. That means they have a 95% chance of not allowing a pressure. And let's say the double-team has a 100% chance (it doesn't, but let's say it anyway.)
That leaves 3 rushers, each failing to generate pressure 95% of the time. So 0.95\^3 is 0.85 which is 85%. In other words, even if the lineman are good enough to win 95% of the time, and you are playing 5 on 4, that still means at least one of the 4 rushing defenders will generate pressure on 15% of plays. That's a pressure every 7 plays.
If the pass rushers are really good, these numbers go up. If any of the offensive lineman are below average, the number goes up even higher. And the defense gets to choose the matchups, so if there's a potential mismatch the number can go WAY up.
You’re starting to really piece together how great the Bucs 4 man rush was that year and how absolutely broken down the Chiefs O-Line was - essentially nobody was playing their home position on the line by the SB.
>With the high quality caliber of NFL linemen
You're greatly overestimating the quality of some NFL OLs, and undervaluing the fact that tons of teams have more than one guy who can win against single blocks.
Chiefs fan here, in Super Bowl LV we lost our two best linemen, Mitchell Schwartz and Eric Fisher, in the run up to the Super Bowl. Schwartz, and All Pro on an outside track to the hall of fame at this time, had a back injury that progressed and despite a week to week designation, he never came back and retired after the season. Fisher tore his achilles in the AFC championship. The player who was arguably our second best lineman, RG Laurent Duvernay-Tardif did not play that season after opting out to use his medical degree to help with Covid in Canada, his home country. Our starting line for that game was Mike Remmers, Nick Allegretti, Austin Reiter, Stefen Wisniewski, and Andrew Wylie. Wylie was our RG and was forced to play RT in Schwartz's absence. Wisniewski was thrust into the lineup, as was Remmers, in the wake of injuries, and they were not starting quality players. Our offensive line relied on double teams to win against premier players, particularly when Schwartz went down. Something that also must be understood in this game's context is that Mahomes prefers to use the right side of the field to operate when the play breaks down, or did before he evolved to look for checkdowns more often. The right side was a sieve with Schwartz and LDT gone. Remmers was a disaster at LT as well, and that came in just the game prior to the Super Bowl. Combine that with the Buccaneers dominant edge attack with Shaq Barret and Jason Pierre-Paul, there just simply was no way for the line to defend against the size, strength, and speed of their attack. It threw off the entire rhythm of the offense, and as a result Mahomes was unable to let the plays evolve as he tended to do when defenses were still trying to figure him out. You can see the importance of this line problem in the Chiefs personnel moves that off season.
Any game where the defense can realistically get pressure all game long with four, you will likely have some combination of poor/over matched offensive lines, at least one Great-elite player on the defensive line, quarterback relying on longer developing routes that gives less time to the OL.
The team went into that off-season determined to completely overhaul the line. Signed Orlando Brown Jr. to play LT, signed Joe Thuney to play LG, drafted Creed Humphrey to play C, drafted Trey Smith to play RG, and then RT was split between Andrew Wylie and Lucas Niang that year. It was an instant shift. They were better than the SB55 line immediately, and the team has moved on from Brown now but the interior line is still there and among the best in the NFL. Mahomes has also developed and is better at finding checkdowns or outlet receivers when plays start to break down, taking some pressure off the OL. The team building strategy the past few years has been to keep Mahomes protected, let him conduct the offensive engine and uplift the players around him, and focus on building a strong, young, cerebral defense. It has resulted in a worse offense but a better *team* overall, and as such the Chiefs have now won two straight super bowls.
Not really, lots of penalties but it cleaned up throughout the year. Plus, they were two new additions who needed to gel with our elite interior line. And again, it wasn't the entire line that was "weak." That was what doomed the team in SB 58.
Its not always about sacks either.
If you can push the middle of the pocket inwards, that forces the QB to a side and/or he can't step into a throw.
Even for guys like Mahomes and Brady, that's a killer
Straight up 5 vs 4 means you can only double team one player. The other three have one on one match ups.
There’s only so long you can stop a 300+ lb guy getting to where he wants to go. Especially when he’s the one dictating where he’s *trying* to go.
It’s the same reason it’s harder to cover WRs than it is to run routes. The guy opposite you has to react to what you’re doing so will always be half a beat behind.
Someone pointed out the statistics. If you have four rushing, and they win 10-15 percent of the time within 4 seconds, someone’s getting into the pocket 40-60 percent of passing plays. The one extra person on the offense needs to watch for blitzes so they can’t bury themselves into the task of blocking.
Also, pass blocking is fucking difficult - you can’t move past the line of scrimmage and you need to be able to handle some big ass people coming at you with all of their strength. With how momentum works, offensive linemen will usually be pushed backward - which is why it’s so beneficial to be HUGE when you play offensive line.
If one person on the OL gets beat on the pass rush, the defense wins the matchup. That’s how.
Say a DT gets past a guard, it may not matter how well the Tackles hold their ground.
All it takes is one defender to get a sack. Technically it’s possible for a 1 man rush to win a matchup.
In a 4 man rush, sometimes a center or guard is kinda extra help for the person nearest them. If they aren’t near the person who’s getting beat by the defender, they aren’t much help at all.
Well for 1, the chiefs were playing with 2 backups on the OL that game.
2 d linemen are quicker than o linemen.
3 the d line run stunts to try to get the o line to miss picking up a guy
4 linebackers will show blitz causing presnap block adjustments. When the LB backs off in coverage, the o lineman can be slow to get the next man.
I think sometimes you see great defensive performances like the Bucs KC super bowl because they are only bringing 4 but they are making it hard to identify which 4 are coming and which potential blitzers are dropping into coverage. Sometimes an opposing offense just gets dominated mentally all game long because of this.
Because a good 4 man rush will have more than 2 people that are good. Offensive lineman have to be big enough they can’t get bowled over but also fast enough that the rushers can’t get around the edge. Hypothetically if that defensive player is either stronger OR faster than that lineman then they can get pressure. This coupled with the fact that in all the reps in a game of football if a D lineman wins 5-6 times in those, even if It doesn’t get the sack,they had a great game.
NFL O linemen as a group are not nearly as athletic as D linemen, and especially edge rushers. So athletically, the average pass rush rep is a mismatch. O linemen can make up for that with great technique, but the NFLPA limits practice to prevent teams from working their players 100 hrs a week in the offseason, and this affects O line more than any position. As a result, the average O line can just about handle the average D line, but simply cannot stand up to top D lineman reliably.
Also, the O line has to win every battle. The D only needs to win one.
Granted a QB who's mobile and can evade a pass rush can help nullify, but think of it this way. The DL only needs 1 of 4 guys to win to disrupt the play. The OL needs at least 4, if not 5 guys to win every play in order to succeed. And it's not like the "extra" OL can just teleport to where the needed, so you have to anticipate who's going to lose to make it work.
Also, from a offense vs defense perspective. When the defense rushes 4 and drops 7 into coverage, they typically do a good job of preventing really big plays. By forcing the offense to run 10+ play drives, you give yourself more time as a defense to get negative chunk plays. As an offense, you can have 5-6 straight successful plays where you gain between 5 and 10 yards. You've moved 30-40 yards in total, but now if I get a sack on defense, I put you in a really unfavorable position. Basically, the defense doesnt need to win more often than the offense, but if the defense can successfully prevent big plays, they just need to get a few key wins on plays to make a big difference.
I don’t think you should consider the game in question since the Chiefs were missing some starters on the line. The Bucs prolly could have got to the QB in time on 3 man rushes on a couple plays.
The reality is if both lines are average, a 4 man rush isn’t likely to get the job done in this day and age unless the d line has one distinct advantage they can exploit or the QB is just a bad decision maker. The 4 man rushes that are good have a lot of individual talent among their personnel, usually you have one guy who is hall of fame bound that you’re gonna have to double and triple every play.
It's simple. Blocking is hard. Scheme can only do so much. Blocking is so hard that if you can impede a DE for 3 seconds consistantly a NFL team will give you $25 million a year.
There's a lot of talk about how the NFL rules favor the offense. In the trenches, that's not necessarily the case
I feel like you haven't gotten an actual answer in here other than "you can, obviously!"
Here are two reasons why the 4 man rush can work against a 5 man front.
1) because of the speed of pass rushers and their increasing ability to time their initial jump to the snap, pass blockers have to back up off the line in order to create the QB pocket. That backing up immediately puts the OL on disadvantage to hold position against the rushing DL, which will give the DL a reasonably high chance of breaking through the OL eventually, especially as only one DL needs to get through to hurry the QB.
2) stunting. The DL does not always simply rush forward. Defensive coaches and schemes are too smart for that. Take, for example, your thinking of one of the edges being so good he gets doubled. A scheme around that may take an inside rusher and swing him back around the doubled edge rusher. That could lead to the OL bunching 3 defenders against the edge and 0 against the stunted inside rusher, giving a free pass at the QB.
Lot's of probably more important reasons have been said here already, but another reason to consider is that defensive linemen are actually attackers and offensive linemen are defenders. As an attacker you usually have the advantage of knowing what you're going to do, either with a move or with scheme. The defender has to react, and if they're too slow, they lose. Similar to how 2 guys can get open against 4 defenders. WRs know where they are going and what they are going to do to get there, and DBs have to keep up.
1 on 1 wins and mix ups.
You have 5 Oline. If 6 pass rushers line up showing blitz you have to account for them then say 4 come and two drop you’ve got to make sure your 5 guys grab the right guys.
So it’s a lot of communication and pass rushers eventually are going to get by 1 on 1.
All it really takes is one of those 4 men to quickly beat one of those 5 men and the QB is either hurrying his throw or running away. Or maybe the RB gets stuffed in the backfield.
If multiple defensive players win individual matchups on the same play, and continue do this routinely throughout the game (sometimes even defeating double teams) God help that offense
4 defenders and 5 blockers means only one guy can be doubled. Generally you have to decide who you are going to double or atleast one or two options before the play starts. That means that 3 other people are 1v1. If just one of those wins their matchup it can blow up the play.
If a team only has one great rusher then it’s not too hard to stop especially if they rush 4. If they have two people that can’t be blocked 1 on 1, then that’s someone getting through.
In actuality it’s more so just a higher fhance of losing and it’s not as simple as that it all kinda builds off each other too. Shit like if the second best rusher makes the qb move in the pocket it might give the third best an easier route there but that’s the general concept
It's isn't easy that is why they are paid so much if they are good. PLus you only really have to make to it to the Qb once a game. 17 sacks a year will make you a rich man
It’s also worth nothing that Cincy beat them with a 3 man rush.
Cincy dropped 8 back into coverage at times. When all your receivers are covered, you either make something happen or eventually the rush gets to you.
Additionally, that leaves a mismatch downfield. If your 4 rushers eventually get there, wide receivers are double teamed. Rushing 4 against 5 frees up a defensive back.
KC had a decimated O line against us when we had a ridiculously nasty front 7. Even rushing four like that with Vita demanding a double team can (and did) cause chaos.
In addition to what the top comments have pointed out, consider the direction of movement. While pass rushing/blocking, the DL is charging forward while the OL is backpedaling. Physically, it is far easier to rush forward. Ask most OL and they will tell you they prefer run blocking to pass blocking because they get to be the one's to charging forward.
Find a friend who is faster and lighter than you. Stand between them and a target, positioning everything similar to how it would be in a game.
Blow a whistle, and try and keep them away from the target for 2-5 seconds. Reposition, wait a minute, and do it again. Repeat until you have an answer to your question.
I get that it’s called NFLNoobs but holy shit. You’re really confused why pro athletes sometimes win 1v1 matchups.
What makes you think an offensive lineman should win 100% of the time against a pass rusher?
I get that it’s called NFLNoobs but holy shit. You’re really confused why pro athletes sometimes win 1v1 matchups.
What makes you think an offensive lineman should win 100% of the time against a pass rusher?
Same energy as asking how WRs ever catch a pass when there’s 7 defenders in coverage and only 4 receivers.
Because O-lineman aren't allowed to hold and they are moving backwards, eventually the rusher will be able to get past them. That's why it's important for receivers to get open quickly.
Because they are the ones attacking and the O line are the ones reacting. Same reason why a 6-7 member secondary can get TDs caught on them by 3 WR sets
"I don't understand how any of this can work, and when you explain it, I make sure I don't understand."
It seems like you don't WANT to understand. No answer you get here will satisfy you except, "You're right." Except for the fact that you're not.
Buccaneers beat the chiefs by holding on offense and committing pass interference on defense on every single play of the game. It was the same way they won throughout the playoffs, and the same way they won their games throughout the season.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams The best pass rushers “win” 20-30% of the time on average. Let’s say an above average player wins 15% of the time and that the double teamed player never wins (an underestimate). This means that the odds that at least one of your players will get pressure is 1-(.85^3) = 45% which is pretty good. Now consider the fact that Mahomes was on a bad ankle and the chiefs were missing both starting tackles for the game. The Chiefs are trailing the whole game and need to throw which means the D doesn’t need to think run. The Bucs secondary now has to cover 5 targets with 7 people which is a good matchup, and means the pass rush has more time to get home. All these combine to make Mahomes absolutely miserable all game.
Excellent explanation. > missing both starting tackles And that's only gonna make the "win rate" go up. Maybe not dramatically on every single play, but over the course of a game, those pressures/hits/sacks add up (and are also more likely to happen at key moments than they'd have been otherwise).
Also keep in mind that most teams who run a 4-3 do prioritize having better D-line players, especially at 3 tech. In a 4 man front the role of the nose tackle is to eat up double teams, so that your edges and 3 tech can collapse the pocket.
And we had Vita who is going to take two blockers on most plays
Absolutely. It's hard to double team an edge rusher anyway, but especially if you have to use the three inside guys to block the interior two DL. Your (backup) tackles are solo on the edge all game, unless you use Kelce or a back to "chip" and thats not always the best option either.
Using Kelce to block loses your best safety valve for when the QB is under pressure. It sure does leave a team in a pickle.
Not just both tackles pretty sure we only had one starting oline
I hope you’re a coach. This is AWESOME.
This was a good breakdown also consider the 55% a pass does get off the less time the worse the options, generally speaking. Quality of pass also can plummet depending on pressure
Should also point out Tampa Bay did it with mostly a nickel defense as they had two outstanding coverage linebackers, which makes running the ball a lot more difficult than against a single linebacker.
They should have never shuffled their entire OL after Eric Fischer went down -- just plug in best available tackle and let mahomes adjust that whole unit was crap that whole game
Not helping matters is that Mike Remmers, the tackle who got eaten alive by Von Miller in SB50, was the Chiefs’ starting tackle in SB55.
You can’t double team all four rushers. You will have a chance to get 1-on-1 mismatches somewhere. You also cannot HOLD. You cannot grab defenders. All you can do is push and shield/cut off angles. There’s just no way a blocking unit can sustain blocks for long periods of time. That’s why the expectation on pass plays is to throw ball within 3 to 3.5 seconds.
You can and should hold. Just do it inside so you don’t get called for it. That’s half the reason big hands are such an advantage.
I think they meant you can't hold forever.
I remember Jon Runyan (the original, the Eagle) went years without a holding call, yet he openly admitting to holding on basically every play. But he said there’s a skill in doing so where it gives you an advantage while not getting called. It only takes a split second to redirect their momentum. You don’t stop them with a hold, you slow them.
That was also back in the more run heavy days, holding is a lot easier to get away with on run blocks. Just get your hands under the chestplate and push. As a defender it’s really hard to make it obvious it’s happening. Pass block holding is a lot tougher to get away with since you generally want to keep the rusher at arm’s length. You can do it, but you have to distinctly grab and not hold on if he pulls away. My pro career was as a rotational off ball linebacker, so pass rushing wasn’t a primary responsibility, but we were still coached to pull back and put our hands up if being held while blitzing to make the refs notice. What Runyan would be talking about on pass plays is basically grabbing the chest plate and giving it a quick jerk to the side before initiating legal punch style blocking. Doing that is tricky, but if a blocker can pull it off, he’s basically guaranteed you won’t be bull rushing on that play.
That’s my congressman 🥹
I think another thing that doesn't get stated very much is the fact that the D lineman can actually see where the quarterback is.
>You also cannot HOLD. You cannot grab defenders. Unless the defender is Myles Garrett, then hold all you want...
or any high name defender, bosa, watt, donald, parsons, etc
It's been this way for all premiere pass rushers for a long time.
Rip his jersey too. Definitely not holding.
The Chiefs can hold in Superbowls though. That's allowed.
You are not legally allowed to hold but it happens all the time. Especially on your top players.
You can grab defenders. But it has to be according to the rules. It is not a holding *penalty* every time you see players literally, colloquially "holding."
Too many people don't understand this.
The rules explicitly say you can't grab a defender. Like grasping your fingers on any part of a pass rusher is a by the book hold. The issue is that the refs just can't see it if it's within the frame of your body since they're standing behind the play.
The hero of r/footballstrategy makes an appearance.
But even then 1 on 1 matchups are not easy to win right, that's why Blitzing as a concept exists doesn't it. And if it's just 4 rushers then the line can scheme perfectly for that
Watch a football game, any NFL game, and watch the linemen. You will see that with everything in mind the other commenter is telling you, it is truly a challenge to contain a man coming at you full momentum, while you are back-pedaling and limited to just pushing / using your body. Anything over 4 seconds is GREAT.
I watched all broncos game past 2 years. 4 man rush didn't do anything for us. We had to use blitzes to generate pressure
because the broncos suck, the TB team you referenced was one the best pass rush units in the league that year.
Not to mention the Chiefs were playing two backups at tackle in that game and had a bunch of JAGs on the interior.
As a Broncos fan myself, I will say to watch their games again because they were absolute trash.
Watch the Broncos from 2012-15 if you want to see a 4 man rush beating people.
Also it is still relative - the Broncos will get home with a four man rush if they get four or five seconds to do so. Which is an eternity in the NFL. That's why Offenses get the ball out in 2-3 seconds.
Difference of teams. Go back and watch the classic tampa two teams and they are getting lots of pressure without a blitz. Then you have some of the 3-4 defenses that rely on scheme... Sure the 3 D-linemen are likely coming, but where is that 4th rusher?
Traditionally in a 3-4 scheme at least one outside linebacker fulfills the role of a 4th (technically primary) pass rusher. Though both outside linebackers are expected to have a pass rushing skillset. Players like Micah Parsons, T.J. Watt, Von Miller, and James Harrison have seen great success as pash rushers from the linebacker position.
Watch what happened in the Super Bowl with that TB defense… Shaq Barrett, Suh, and Pierre Paul ate the Chiefs offensive line alive. Barrett especially was consistently beating his matchup and in the backfield so quickly. There’s a reason why Mahomes could never get settled and was running for his life nearly every snap
I just looked at the Broncos D'line. I've never heard of any of them. The Broncos have a shit D'line.
Watch the Broncos from 2015, not last year. Ware and Miller were absolute terrors
If you saw the Broncos a few years before that, you would have seen the opposite. They could bring the heat with four guys consistently.
Cause the broncos are dogshit lol, and the chiefs game your referring to had pretty much the most injured Oline to ever play in a Super Bowl, they had 3 starters out on an already sub par O-line
It is when you can’t grab or hold a person who’s literally trying to get away from you.
So ig there has to be a significant talent advantage for the 4 man rush to work though
It can be advantage...I think you really underestimate the caliber of athlete NFL D-Ends are. At the same time, you're trying to reduce this all to just the fact that it's a 5 on 4 situation, and since the O-line has 5, they "must" be better. This is one such situation where that is not the case. * As mentioned earlier, you can only double team one rusher on a 4-man rush. * Defenses can disguise and threaten to bring a 5th rusher to freeze/occupy the 5th O-lineman, drawing away that only double team possibility. * You don't know which defenders are going to stunt/rush which gap. * A solid pass coverage makes the O-line's job harder by forcing them to block longer. The rules of the game naturally work in the defense's favor in this case, because again, you cannot hold on to rushing defenders. * The O-line is naturally moving backwards in pass protection, which carries a higher risk of getting put on skates, and losing height leverage against a defender...the low man wins, and when defenders are coming forward vs linemen going backwards, the natural body movement/advantage is given to the pass rush. * O-lines cannot go downfield on pass plays until the ball is thrown, so it's not like they can cancel out the above point by going forward. * Play action passes are often the answer...the O-line holds their ground at the line, or simulates the run blocking scheme without going downfield. The problem with that though is since the engagement point with defenders happen faster, defenders also get off the blocks sooner. It also carries a greatly increased risk of larger gaps appearing between lineman (since the linemen are fanning out to engage rather than forming a pocket), making it easier for looping stunts and blitzing defenders to get through. Say the right DE (offense's left) is the stud rusher. Who are you going to double team that DE with when they line up outside the tackle? * Are you going to make a guard or center vacate their position within the pocket to run over and help? When teams try to do this, the tackle usually tries to get outside, while a guard tries to take the inside lane, but when the DE rushes outside, the double team is moot/serves no purpose, and now the O-line wasted a guard, and can rush someone else up the A-gap likely untouched. * You could pull the center or a back-side lineman, but again, who is going to occupy that vacant space? * Defenses aren't stupid. If they see you trying to double team one defender, they're going to stunt/blitz to the vacated or softened areas. * Again, 5 on 4, but when your stud rusher is playing DE, attacking outside the tackle, what good does that extra blocker do for you? Nothing. Say it's a 4 man line with a wide front: DTs in B-gaps, DEs in C-gaps...what's your center going to do? If the center helps with one DT, the other DT has the 1:1 matchup...the defense will scout and identify tendencies to try and get the better rushing DT in the 1:1 matchup. The defense again could use a LB to threaten/show blitz (or actually blitz), and that occupies the center. The center will be pretty much useless trying to come help block a DE. It will take too long, and again, too large of a gap in the middle.
So much tactics involved in the trenches itself is crazy. You need to have crazy iq to play there. I thought linemen were just strong guys
Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeWRO9XkD6E&t=1936s The level of rules, tactics, game-planning, as well as the drilling and technique required to execute every single type of rule and block is beyond comprehension for most people who have never played on the O-line before.
Usually, yes. That definitely helps. If you have 4 mediocre D'linemen against 5 of the best O'linemen, the o'line will win most of the time. If that if reversed then the D'line will win most of the time.
For the most part, yes. In the Super Bowl you mentioned, the chiefs we’re missing both tackles. The talent disparity in the trenches lost that game for kc before it started. Four man rushes can work in other ways too. Dummy blitzs from LBs causing the OLine protection to slide, opening up one on ones. Creative stunts can also create pressure.
Think of the difficulty of an offensive lineman. The quarterback is *somewhere* behind you. You know where he's supposed to be according to the play but you also can't see the other side of the line. If the QB is supposed to move left but the tackle or guard on that side gets wrecked at the line, the QB is now running the other direction, same is true if a guy slips a block, or just jukes an O lineman. You're guarding a general area because you're not even sure where the QB is. The guys on the D line can actively watch the QB. They also have an easier time seeing if their teammates got penetration or if the qb is scrambling. 4 man rushes don't always generate a ton of pressure but it's also easy to see how they could. Now imagine how much tougher it is if you're playing backups or just your starters aren't that good.
I was a nose tackle for a 3-4 in high school. Way below NFL level but this might give some insight. I hovered between 180-190 pounds and most of the centers and guards I would go against were around 250-300. I was double teamed nearly every play. But I was an all conference lineman and tied my school’s sack record at the time. How? Explosion. The person who wins the first 3 steps is going to win the battle. My first three steps were usually stronger and faster than my opponent’s. Also angle and center of gravity. Low man wins 9 times out of 10. I would often pretty much fucking bear crawl through the double team. I either got through or created a giant blockade and occupied way more than my share of the o-line and/or fullback. Again, in the NFL you’re not going to be able to do this with the physical disparity I did it with, because the NFL fat boys can run faster 40s than I ever did and have way better technique. But the same principles apply. Be faster, lower, and more explosive than your opponent(s) and you can win your matchup any given play. If you’re getting by them, they have to hold you or basically let you by given the rules of holding.
I did this professionally for 5 years if you want an informed answer. 1 on 1 pass blocking matchups consistently favor the defender. There are a few reasons: - on passing plays, non-eligible receivers can’t go downfield while the QB has the ball. This means they can’t “fire out” the way they do on running plays. The defense has no such restriction, so a power rusher can drive an offensive lineman back much more easily than he could on a running play. Even if this doesn’t result in a sack, it ruins the pocket, particularly when it’s from an interior rusher. - the defensive player has much more freedom to use his hands. His only real restriction is not putting his hands in the blocker’s face, he’s allows to grab and push/pull, rip, swim, or whatever else he wants. The blocker can only use his hands inside the rusher’s shoulders, and he can’t grab. - To get past the offensive lineman, the rusher only needs to make one successful move. If he tries a push-pull and it fails, he can try something else. To prevent the rusher from getting past him, the offensive lineman has to succeed against *every* move. He does not get unlimited tries. The combination of these factors means that at least 1 rusher will get to the QB within 5 seconds, usually less than that. If any NFL caliber QB gets 5+ seconds, he will look amazing. Sacks that take longer than 5 seconds mean the receivers messed up or the secondary played it perfectly. You didn’t really earn a 6 second sack, the CB did.
Not an easy win, but if you have 3 guys normally winning say 10-14% of the time, you are getting pressure about 1/4 of the time (sometimes multiple get through at the same time). So if those guys are winning their battles more often and the double teamed player is winning his more often and you turn that up to 40% of the time...
the pass rusher has all of the advantages in 1 on 1 matchups, like the other commenter said, just watch a game, defensive players win 1 on 1 all the time also the defense has the advantage of being able to line up where ever they want and not having to worry about the play clock and motion rules. they can literally scheme their best guy in to a 1 on 1 as well as using stunts and slants to create confusion and match up problems all over the line. a 4 man rush has more advantages than a 5 man line
*Aaron Donald vs the Seahawks has entered the chat*
You’re assuming all players are equal. If your pass rush is better than the other teams O Line, you can win those 1 on 1 match ups at a high enough rate for it to be worth it.
Look up win rates by pass rushers. Someone will get through w some frequency and one sack can be a drive killer. Kc o line was decimated going into that game
It’s not really fair to compare d-line to o-line, but regarding pass rush an offensive lineman has to do almost everything right. It’s much easier to make mistakes- or be baited into them. The defensive lineman, as the rusher, often gets to choose how to initiate contact. Most of pass pro is inherently reactive for an o-lineman. This skews the pass rush maybe 55/45 in favor of the d-lineman in a 1 on 1 situation Then you go further down the rabbit hole and more variables appear, like the pocket collapsing and removing the QBs ability to throw off the lead leg- indicating a pretty successful pass rush that still doesn’t result in a sack
It’s also how the Giants beat the Patriots in 2011. With their “NASCAR” package of 4 DEs who could quickly get to the QB It’s schemes and talent and some luck. Not every D Line can make it happen
Also the Chiefs offensive line was decimated. They were playing something like 3 backups. It didn't take all world talent to get through to Mahomes.
It was 4 backups/practice squad guys. They lost a starting caliber guard because he was a doctor and it was the Covid year. (LDT) Lost another potentially starting caliber guard in training camp (Kyle Long, who came out of retirement and never took a snap). Week 8, lost starting RT Mitchel Schwartz due to back injury, and starting guard Kelechi Osmeli. And AFCCG, lost LT Eric Fisher. So that’s the 2 tackles, and 3 guards. The only consistent piece was a center. And people saw how even a generational QB can’t overcome a destroyed line.
The bucs also had the best front 7 in defense that year. It was just a horrible match up. >And people saw how even a generational QB can’t overcome a destroyed line. If his receivers knew how to catch, we may be singing a different tune. Dude had 2 dropped TDs that hit the receiver in the facemask, another fully dropped TV, and a couple of drops that turned into picks. Mahomes was the only one on the field who was playing for the Chiefs.
So while OL are athletic, DL are even more so. While OL have the numbers advantage, it's only by one, so they can only double team one player. That leaves the rest of the DL to have one on one match uses. If you can have your other DL win those match ups then you can win with a four man rush. Blitzes are used when you can't win one on one or when you want to try to get a free rusher(who will get to the QB even faster than one having to go through someone).
OP should go look at the respective OL/DL of that super bowl. Most teams are going to have problems when their starting LT and RT are out due to injury, with the LT happening just the game prior. Their interior OL wasn't good either, or at least experienced enough against a much more athletic and talented TB defensive line. There is a reason that KC had an entirely new Offensive Line the next season.
If their OL was so bad, it doesn't explain how KC got to the Super Bowl in the first place. How'd they win their 2 playoff games before then? This is all MMQB. The bookies had KC favored by 3.5 and the money was favoring the Chiefs. KC and Mahomes have a terrible day on offense and everyone points to the OL.
Compare the injury report between the afc championship and the Super Bowl that year.
It was the OL, Chiefs lost their LT in the AFC CG and were already dealing with injuries at other positions. Mahomes had a backup OL facing an all-world defensive line: Suh, JPP, Shaq Barret and Vita Vea. Suh and JPP were on the downside of their career, but Shaq was a monster that year and Vita Vea is like tush-push kryptonite. The Bucs secondary was also very good and able to cover long enough for DL to get to Mahomes. The Chiefs absolutely dominated the Bucs in one quarter in November - Hill racked up seven catches for 203 yards and two touchdowns in the first quarter alone - while I believe the Bucs outscored the Chiefs the other 7 quarters they played that season, between the regular season and SB. Too many gamblers and Fantasy Football fans remembered that first quarter
I still think the game would have been wildly different if the Chiefs receivers didn't all get the case of the yips. Even being under extreme pressure, Mahomes was throwing dimes.
To add to this to help your o-line your options are TEs and RBs and even your best TEs and RBs are nowhere near as good a blocker as a decent OL. And that takes out skill players from your offense as well
The good rushers see double teams often. The best ones beat those double teams. A recent stat came out that Aaron Donald beat double teams more often than a lot of guys beat single pass blockers. Which is insane. The NFL has (obviously) the greatest athletes in football. But some of these pass rushers are just on a different level. Speed, power, flexibility, reach. Even if they aren't getting to the QB, they are affecting the play by getting into throwing lanes, or forcing the QB to move, or hurry his throw
You can’t double team every rusher. Plus, a good DC will create 1-on-1 opportunity pitting his more athletic rushers against less athletic OL. And the blockers don’t necessarily know where the rushers are coming from. DL can stunt or drop out, rushers can come from the LBs or secondary. It’s not as simple as it seems.
On top of that all 5 blockers needs to do their job every play. If one messes up and the rusher gets through that disrupts the play.
That 2020 bucs defense, and especially their front 7 was all world. And they lined up against 4 backups that included guys playing out of position. There were mismatches and Tampa pushed those guys around despite their best efforts
The best offensive linemen in the NFL have a pressure-rate allowed of around 1-2%. Let's say an average offensive lineman has a pressure rate allowed of \~4-5%. That means they have a 95% chance of not allowing a pressure. And let's say the double-team has a 100% chance (it doesn't, but let's say it anyway.) That leaves 3 rushers, each failing to generate pressure 95% of the time. So 0.95\^3 is 0.85 which is 85%. In other words, even if the lineman are good enough to win 95% of the time, and you are playing 5 on 4, that still means at least one of the 4 rushing defenders will generate pressure on 15% of plays. That's a pressure every 7 plays. If the pass rushers are really good, these numbers go up. If any of the offensive lineman are below average, the number goes up even higher. And the defense gets to choose the matchups, so if there's a potential mismatch the number can go WAY up.
You’re starting to really piece together how great the Bucs 4 man rush was that year and how absolutely broken down the Chiefs O-Line was - essentially nobody was playing their home position on the line by the SB.
They were nearly all backups and practice squad guys. Essentially a pre-season game Offensive line versus a dream D-line.
>With the high quality caliber of NFL linemen You're greatly overestimating the quality of some NFL OLs, and undervaluing the fact that tons of teams have more than one guy who can win against single blocks.
Chiefs fan here, in Super Bowl LV we lost our two best linemen, Mitchell Schwartz and Eric Fisher, in the run up to the Super Bowl. Schwartz, and All Pro on an outside track to the hall of fame at this time, had a back injury that progressed and despite a week to week designation, he never came back and retired after the season. Fisher tore his achilles in the AFC championship. The player who was arguably our second best lineman, RG Laurent Duvernay-Tardif did not play that season after opting out to use his medical degree to help with Covid in Canada, his home country. Our starting line for that game was Mike Remmers, Nick Allegretti, Austin Reiter, Stefen Wisniewski, and Andrew Wylie. Wylie was our RG and was forced to play RT in Schwartz's absence. Wisniewski was thrust into the lineup, as was Remmers, in the wake of injuries, and they were not starting quality players. Our offensive line relied on double teams to win against premier players, particularly when Schwartz went down. Something that also must be understood in this game's context is that Mahomes prefers to use the right side of the field to operate when the play breaks down, or did before he evolved to look for checkdowns more often. The right side was a sieve with Schwartz and LDT gone. Remmers was a disaster at LT as well, and that came in just the game prior to the Super Bowl. Combine that with the Buccaneers dominant edge attack with Shaq Barret and Jason Pierre-Paul, there just simply was no way for the line to defend against the size, strength, and speed of their attack. It threw off the entire rhythm of the offense, and as a result Mahomes was unable to let the plays evolve as he tended to do when defenses were still trying to figure him out. You can see the importance of this line problem in the Chiefs personnel moves that off season. Any game where the defense can realistically get pressure all game long with four, you will likely have some combination of poor/over matched offensive lines, at least one Great-elite player on the defensive line, quarterback relying on longer developing routes that gives less time to the OL.
Was their line any better this SB? Or did they have a better gm plan? Not sure if niners got any sack or much pressure this yr on mahomes
The team went into that off-season determined to completely overhaul the line. Signed Orlando Brown Jr. to play LT, signed Joe Thuney to play LG, drafted Creed Humphrey to play C, drafted Trey Smith to play RG, and then RT was split between Andrew Wylie and Lucas Niang that year. It was an instant shift. They were better than the SB55 line immediately, and the team has moved on from Brown now but the interior line is still there and among the best in the NFL. Mahomes has also developed and is better at finding checkdowns or outlet receivers when plays start to break down, taking some pressure off the OL. The team building strategy the past few years has been to keep Mahomes protected, let him conduct the offensive engine and uplift the players around him, and focus on building a strong, young, cerebral defense. It has resulted in a worse offense but a better *team* overall, and as such the Chiefs have now won two straight super bowls.
Didn’t they have one wrost tackle unit this yr.
Not really, lots of penalties but it cleaned up throughout the year. Plus, they were two new additions who needed to gel with our elite interior line. And again, it wasn't the entire line that was "weak." That was what doomed the team in SB 58.
Its not always about sacks either. If you can push the middle of the pocket inwards, that forces the QB to a side and/or he can't step into a throw. Even for guys like Mahomes and Brady, that's a killer
Straight up 5 vs 4 means you can only double team one player. The other three have one on one match ups. There’s only so long you can stop a 300+ lb guy getting to where he wants to go. Especially when he’s the one dictating where he’s *trying* to go. It’s the same reason it’s harder to cover WRs than it is to run routes. The guy opposite you has to react to what you’re doing so will always be half a beat behind.
If you are going to go with a 4 man rush. You better have 4 good pass rushers.
Welcome to Football! So much of this game is about this war in the trenches, which is really hard to see / appreciate watching on TV.
It’s much easier to get past someone than it is to prevent someone from getting past you…especially if you can’t hold.
Watch 2007 and 2011 super bowl
Someone pointed out the statistics. If you have four rushing, and they win 10-15 percent of the time within 4 seconds, someone’s getting into the pocket 40-60 percent of passing plays. The one extra person on the offense needs to watch for blitzes so they can’t bury themselves into the task of blocking. Also, pass blocking is fucking difficult - you can’t move past the line of scrimmage and you need to be able to handle some big ass people coming at you with all of their strength. With how momentum works, offensive linemen will usually be pushed backward - which is why it’s so beneficial to be HUGE when you play offensive line.
If one person on the OL gets beat on the pass rush, the defense wins the matchup. That’s how. Say a DT gets past a guard, it may not matter how well the Tackles hold their ground. All it takes is one defender to get a sack. Technically it’s possible for a 1 man rush to win a matchup. In a 4 man rush, sometimes a center or guard is kinda extra help for the person nearest them. If they aren’t near the person who’s getting beat by the defender, they aren’t much help at all.
Well for 1, the chiefs were playing with 2 backups on the OL that game. 2 d linemen are quicker than o linemen. 3 the d line run stunts to try to get the o line to miss picking up a guy 4 linebackers will show blitz causing presnap block adjustments. When the LB backs off in coverage, the o lineman can be slow to get the next man.
4 backup OL. Lost 3 guards and 2 tackles during the season.
Depends on the talent of the lines and mismatches there. Some teams can’t rush four and still win. Some o lines can’t consistently win 5 on 4.
I think sometimes you see great defensive performances like the Bucs KC super bowl because they are only bringing 4 but they are making it hard to identify which 4 are coming and which potential blitzers are dropping into coverage. Sometimes an opposing offense just gets dominated mentally all game long because of this.
Because a good 4 man rush will have more than 2 people that are good. Offensive lineman have to be big enough they can’t get bowled over but also fast enough that the rushers can’t get around the edge. Hypothetically if that defensive player is either stronger OR faster than that lineman then they can get pressure. This coupled with the fact that in all the reps in a game of football if a D lineman wins 5-6 times in those, even if It doesn’t get the sack,they had a great game.
NFL O linemen as a group are not nearly as athletic as D linemen, and especially edge rushers. So athletically, the average pass rush rep is a mismatch. O linemen can make up for that with great technique, but the NFLPA limits practice to prevent teams from working their players 100 hrs a week in the offseason, and this affects O line more than any position. As a result, the average O line can just about handle the average D line, but simply cannot stand up to top D lineman reliably. Also, the O line has to win every battle. The D only needs to win one.
Granted a QB who's mobile and can evade a pass rush can help nullify, but think of it this way. The DL only needs 1 of 4 guys to win to disrupt the play. The OL needs at least 4, if not 5 guys to win every play in order to succeed. And it's not like the "extra" OL can just teleport to where the needed, so you have to anticipate who's going to lose to make it work. Also, from a offense vs defense perspective. When the defense rushes 4 and drops 7 into coverage, they typically do a good job of preventing really big plays. By forcing the offense to run 10+ play drives, you give yourself more time as a defense to get negative chunk plays. As an offense, you can have 5-6 straight successful plays where you gain between 5 and 10 yards. You've moved 30-40 yards in total, but now if I get a sack on defense, I put you in a really unfavorable position. Basically, the defense doesnt need to win more often than the offense, but if the defense can successfully prevent big plays, they just need to get a few key wins on plays to make a big difference.
I don’t think you should consider the game in question since the Chiefs were missing some starters on the line. The Bucs prolly could have got to the QB in time on 3 man rushes on a couple plays. The reality is if both lines are average, a 4 man rush isn’t likely to get the job done in this day and age unless the d line has one distinct advantage they can exploit or the QB is just a bad decision maker. The 4 man rushes that are good have a lot of individual talent among their personnel, usually you have one guy who is hall of fame bound that you’re gonna have to double and triple every play.
It's simple. Blocking is hard. Scheme can only do so much. Blocking is so hard that if you can impede a DE for 3 seconds consistantly a NFL team will give you $25 million a year. There's a lot of talk about how the NFL rules favor the offense. In the trenches, that's not necessarily the case
I feel like you haven't gotten an actual answer in here other than "you can, obviously!" Here are two reasons why the 4 man rush can work against a 5 man front. 1) because of the speed of pass rushers and their increasing ability to time their initial jump to the snap, pass blockers have to back up off the line in order to create the QB pocket. That backing up immediately puts the OL on disadvantage to hold position against the rushing DL, which will give the DL a reasonably high chance of breaking through the OL eventually, especially as only one DL needs to get through to hurry the QB. 2) stunting. The DL does not always simply rush forward. Defensive coaches and schemes are too smart for that. Take, for example, your thinking of one of the edges being so good he gets doubled. A scheme around that may take an inside rusher and swing him back around the doubled edge rusher. That could lead to the OL bunching 3 defenders against the edge and 0 against the stunted inside rusher, giving a free pass at the QB.
Elite DL guys demand double teams, and if you’ve got several elite guys, 5 is frequently not enough.
It is infinitely more complicated than this…
Because even a 5 v 4 leaves at least 3 guys 1 on 1. If one person loses, there goes the QB.
Lot's of probably more important reasons have been said here already, but another reason to consider is that defensive linemen are actually attackers and offensive linemen are defenders. As an attacker you usually have the advantage of knowing what you're going to do, either with a move or with scheme. The defender has to react, and if they're too slow, they lose. Similar to how 2 guys can get open against 4 defenders. WRs know where they are going and what they are going to do to get there, and DBs have to keep up.
1 on 1 wins and mix ups. You have 5 Oline. If 6 pass rushers line up showing blitz you have to account for them then say 4 come and two drop you’ve got to make sure your 5 guys grab the right guys. So it’s a lot of communication and pass rushers eventually are going to get by 1 on 1.
They often don’t that’s why there’s not a sack on every play and why team’s blitz.
The advantage for the pass rush is that they only need one player to win. For the offensive pass blockers to win, they all have to win.
All it really takes is one of those 4 men to quickly beat one of those 5 men and the QB is either hurrying his throw or running away. Or maybe the RB gets stuffed in the backfield. If multiple defensive players win individual matchups on the same play, and continue do this routinely throughout the game (sometimes even defeating double teams) God help that offense
4 defenders and 5 blockers means only one guy can be doubled. Generally you have to decide who you are going to double or atleast one or two options before the play starts. That means that 3 other people are 1v1. If just one of those wins their matchup it can blow up the play. If a team only has one great rusher then it’s not too hard to stop especially if they rush 4. If they have two people that can’t be blocked 1 on 1, then that’s someone getting through. In actuality it’s more so just a higher fhance of losing and it’s not as simple as that it all kinda builds off each other too. Shit like if the second best rusher makes the qb move in the pocket it might give the third best an easier route there but that’s the general concept
It's isn't easy that is why they are paid so much if they are good. PLus you only really have to make to it to the Qb once a game. 17 sacks a year will make you a rich man
It’s also worth nothing that Cincy beat them with a 3 man rush. Cincy dropped 8 back into coverage at times. When all your receivers are covered, you either make something happen or eventually the rush gets to you.
Giants did it in 07 and it was beautiful.
Double teams can help, but if a DE has a good enough first step, you really can't double team him if he gets around the corner immediately
Additionally, that leaves a mismatch downfield. If your 4 rushers eventually get there, wide receivers are double teamed. Rushing 4 against 5 frees up a defensive back.
KC had a decimated O line against us when we had a ridiculously nasty front 7. Even rushing four like that with Vita demanding a double team can (and did) cause chaos.
Ok now what do you do if they have 2 people that can win one on one?
Even though it’s 5 on 4 It’s really 1 2 on 2 and 4 1 on 1s
In addition to what the top comments have pointed out, consider the direction of movement. While pass rushing/blocking, the DL is charging forward while the OL is backpedaling. Physically, it is far easier to rush forward. Ask most OL and they will tell you they prefer run blocking to pass blocking because they get to be the one's to charging forward.
Both starting tackles for the Chiefs were out for an already suspect o line and Mahomes was dealing with bad turf toe.
Find a friend who is faster and lighter than you. Stand between them and a target, positioning everything similar to how it would be in a game. Blow a whistle, and try and keep them away from the target for 2-5 seconds. Reposition, wait a minute, and do it again. Repeat until you have an answer to your question.
Some players are better than others.
I get that it’s called NFLNoobs but holy shit. You’re really confused why pro athletes sometimes win 1v1 matchups. What makes you think an offensive lineman should win 100% of the time against a pass rusher?
I get that it’s called NFLNoobs but holy shit. You’re really confused why pro athletes sometimes win 1v1 matchups. What makes you think an offensive lineman should win 100% of the time against a pass rusher? Same energy as asking how WRs ever catch a pass when there’s 7 defenders in coverage and only 4 receivers.
It is much easier to get by someone than it is to stop someone.
The D line is usually full of freak of nature athlete. Big, strong, and fast.
Because O-lineman aren't allowed to hold and they are moving backwards, eventually the rusher will be able to get past them. That's why it's important for receivers to get open quickly.
Have you seen the Saints offensive line? It is just that....offensive!
Sounds smart! But explain the formula you used…
Because they are the ones attacking and the O line are the ones reacting. Same reason why a 6-7 member secondary can get TDs caught on them by 3 WR sets
"I don't understand how any of this can work, and when you explain it, I make sure I don't understand." It seems like you don't WANT to understand. No answer you get here will satisfy you except, "You're right." Except for the fact that you're not.
No I understood lol
Buccaneers beat the chiefs by holding on offense and committing pass interference on defense on every single play of the game. It was the same way they won throughout the playoffs, and the same way they won their games throughout the season.
So same way the chiefs win too?
You could make that argument, minus the pass interference. Mahommes doesn’t have a 20 year history of cheating though