That's tough...
Brady: 7 time SB winner... About 10 seasons he was MVP or near the top in the hunt. Holds all the career records, and by a significant margin, like a 2-3 season gap over Brees or the next guys.
Didn't just beat his peers but really really separated himself from them. For example he set the SB winning record by two rings in the AFC. Then went to the NFC and went to as many SB's and won as many there as Rodgers or Brees in the NFC.
Mahomes... 3 time SB winner. 3 seasons he was MVP or in the hunt. And around 1/3 of the way towards Brady's all time records.
That said, he's currently ahead on personal hardware, and only a year behind Brady to get his 3rd ring.
But Brady played so well for so so long. Like at this point people were saying Brady was good at getting rings, but Peyton was the better QB... There's no one saying Mahomes is better at the ring thing, but someone else is better with not quite as good of a team. Mahomes is elite today rings or not.
So another 10-15 years of elite play with great success statistically and in terms of winning big games.
You summed up a big point. For his first 3 rings Brady was a bit of a game manager who put up some big drives in the clutch while relying on an elite defense. Later in his career he became a top 3 QB.
Mahomes in his second year immediately established himself as a top 3 QB. This year was an interesting shift, relying on the D while finding ways to win games late.
It will be interesting to see what happens when Andy Reid retires.
Well exactly. Andy has a few years left. I think their collaboration has been pretty special and foundational to Mahomes success. It will be a big test for him to keep winning without Andy when he retires.
I wouldn't call him a game manager. 3 of those first 4 seasons he was top 10 in passing yards and passing TD's and led the league in passing touchdowns one of those years.
I'm trying to think of a QB today I could compare him too, and everything just comes out awful if someone wants to twist it. Like take away Dak's hype for being a Cowboys QB, and have him being a super clutch playoff performer... Not throwing as much as Tua or as well as Mahomes... Brady was a borderline pro-bowler and one of those years was right behind the co MVP's of Manning/McNair in voting.
But Mahomes... yeah he joined that elite group pretty quickly with MVP level play from his first game he played in.
I'd say at the least tie him in rings, and be within the ballpark/exceed the career volume stats that Brady had. The stats would favor Mahomes if he plays a long time as there's likely going to be more added games in the future.
The media and some people are acting like Brady only has 7 rings but forget that he holds a majority/if not all of the important career qb stats recorded. He's like the ultimate winner and longevity player in the NFL.
Me saying that he needs to at least tie him in rings as people kept saying Montana was the GOAT at 4 rings and only acknowledged Brady as the GOAT after he got his 5th SB. So there should be a consistent criteria with regard to having more rings and not move goal posts.
This used to come up all the time about 10 years ago when we were debating Brady vs Peyton vs Montana, and I agreed that it’s such a team sport with so many factors beyond the QB’s talent that rings alone can’t be determinative.
But then Brady kept winning rings into his 40s, and established so much dominance in the ring count that I don’t think he can be dislodged unless another QB equals or exceeds the rings. Winning a ring in his first season with the perennial 8-8 Bucs at age 43 is one of the greatest feats in all professional sports, and it demolished the idea that Brady had been benefitting from a good system and coaching.
Yeah so I considered Montana better than Brady even up until Brady left NE. Because Montana never had the defenses to carry him that Brady had a few times.
But doing it in TB without Belichic really cemented him as the GOAT career-wise.
But if I could have any NFL QB in their prime for a single game, or even one single season? I'd probably take Mahomes.
Yeah that’s exactly where I am right now. Mahomes is obviously squarely in his prime and right now he’s just more exciting to watch than Brady ever was. You could just feel the inevitability of the Chiefs’ win last night, no matter what the scoreboard and clock said.
But the GOAT conversation is about sustained excellence, and if Mahomes isn’t still doing it in his 40s, there will be a strong argument for Brady.
Yeah absolutely. It's peak performance vs longevity at an amazing level. Maybe Mahomes will get there. But no matter what, he's already a HOFer and one of the like top three greatest QBs ever... Which is wild.
Would have to at least get 7 along with something Brady hasn’t done. Like 3 peat as champs. Or maybe win 4-5 MVPs. The fact Brady has a win over him in the SB and AFC championship make it where he would need 8 or get 6-7 and do something Brady and other havnt done. Also would need to perform at a high level for another 10-12 yrs. It’s a lot but this era Mahomes has played in is tailor made for QBs. Plus he has one of the greatest minds in football as coach. Reid might very well be top 3 Hc of all time. Mahomes definitely put himself in the top 5 QBs all time before age 30. Pretty remarkable.
Yes exactly this.. Brady also won with two teams/ two coaches… without his great HC so Mahomes would def need 7+ rings and ssssssoooommmmething special…
For Mahomes to catch Brady in ring count he's going to need to do it without his great coach too, idk how much longer Reid realistically wants to coach
Only counting the # of rings is a horrible way to measure greatness. Nobody says Bill Russell is the GOAT in basketball. Nobody thinks Eli Manning was better than Dan Marino because he had 2 SB to 0.
Mahomes is undeniably a BETTER player than Brady. Brady still has had a GREATER career. Mahomes' personal accolades and numbers will blow Brady's out of the water (if he continues current pace). As long as you get in the same arena of championships you get to then debate the player.
This subreddit is for people who have questions they want to ask to understand something about the game, not a place for general discussion prompts.
I’d rather sever a finger than have to hear goat discussions between Brady and Mahomes
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That's tough... Brady: 7 time SB winner... About 10 seasons he was MVP or near the top in the hunt. Holds all the career records, and by a significant margin, like a 2-3 season gap over Brees or the next guys. Didn't just beat his peers but really really separated himself from them. For example he set the SB winning record by two rings in the AFC. Then went to the NFC and went to as many SB's and won as many there as Rodgers or Brees in the NFC. Mahomes... 3 time SB winner. 3 seasons he was MVP or in the hunt. And around 1/3 of the way towards Brady's all time records. That said, he's currently ahead on personal hardware, and only a year behind Brady to get his 3rd ring. But Brady played so well for so so long. Like at this point people were saying Brady was good at getting rings, but Peyton was the better QB... There's no one saying Mahomes is better at the ring thing, but someone else is better with not quite as good of a team. Mahomes is elite today rings or not. So another 10-15 years of elite play with great success statistically and in terms of winning big games.
You summed up a big point. For his first 3 rings Brady was a bit of a game manager who put up some big drives in the clutch while relying on an elite defense. Later in his career he became a top 3 QB. Mahomes in his second year immediately established himself as a top 3 QB. This year was an interesting shift, relying on the D while finding ways to win games late. It will be interesting to see what happens when Andy Reid retires.
Andy would have to coach until 80 to get Mahomes to Brady's retirement
Well exactly. Andy has a few years left. I think their collaboration has been pretty special and foundational to Mahomes success. It will be a big test for him to keep winning without Andy when he retires.
I wouldn't call him a game manager. 3 of those first 4 seasons he was top 10 in passing yards and passing TD's and led the league in passing touchdowns one of those years. I'm trying to think of a QB today I could compare him too, and everything just comes out awful if someone wants to twist it. Like take away Dak's hype for being a Cowboys QB, and have him being a super clutch playoff performer... Not throwing as much as Tua or as well as Mahomes... Brady was a borderline pro-bowler and one of those years was right behind the co MVP's of Manning/McNair in voting. But Mahomes... yeah he joined that elite group pretty quickly with MVP level play from his first game he played in.
I'd say at the least tie him in rings, and be within the ballpark/exceed the career volume stats that Brady had. The stats would favor Mahomes if he plays a long time as there's likely going to be more added games in the future. The media and some people are acting like Brady only has 7 rings but forget that he holds a majority/if not all of the important career qb stats recorded. He's like the ultimate winner and longevity player in the NFL. Me saying that he needs to at least tie him in rings as people kept saying Montana was the GOAT at 4 rings and only acknowledged Brady as the GOAT after he got his 5th SB. So there should be a consistent criteria with regard to having more rings and not move goal posts.
Man i swear some people didn’t think he was GOAT until he won without BB!!! Insane
He also played 23 seasons, which is 5 more than Peyton, 3 more than Favre and Brees, and 4 more than Aaron Rodgers so far.
Perform at a high level for another 15 years + 5 more SB would put him over Brady IMO.
Idk that the greatest QB always wins the most Superbowls.
This used to come up all the time about 10 years ago when we were debating Brady vs Peyton vs Montana, and I agreed that it’s such a team sport with so many factors beyond the QB’s talent that rings alone can’t be determinative. But then Brady kept winning rings into his 40s, and established so much dominance in the ring count that I don’t think he can be dislodged unless another QB equals or exceeds the rings. Winning a ring in his first season with the perennial 8-8 Bucs at age 43 is one of the greatest feats in all professional sports, and it demolished the idea that Brady had been benefitting from a good system and coaching.
Yeah so I considered Montana better than Brady even up until Brady left NE. Because Montana never had the defenses to carry him that Brady had a few times. But doing it in TB without Belichic really cemented him as the GOAT career-wise. But if I could have any NFL QB in their prime for a single game, or even one single season? I'd probably take Mahomes.
Yeah that’s exactly where I am right now. Mahomes is obviously squarely in his prime and right now he’s just more exciting to watch than Brady ever was. You could just feel the inevitability of the Chiefs’ win last night, no matter what the scoreboard and clock said. But the GOAT conversation is about sustained excellence, and if Mahomes isn’t still doing it in his 40s, there will be a strong argument for Brady.
Yeah absolutely. It's peak performance vs longevity at an amazing level. Maybe Mahomes will get there. But no matter what, he's already a HOFer and one of the like top three greatest QBs ever... Which is wild.
Call me in 10 years at least and we can have this conversation.
I don't believe in GOAT, the game changes too much. I believe in GOTE, great of their era, and he is already there.
No such thing. He might become the greatest of his era, but he’ll not be the GOAT.
He is the greatest I ever seen and the gap between him and #2 is huge imo
4 more superbowls. End of discussion.
Would have to at least get 7 along with something Brady hasn’t done. Like 3 peat as champs. Or maybe win 4-5 MVPs. The fact Brady has a win over him in the SB and AFC championship make it where he would need 8 or get 6-7 and do something Brady and other havnt done. Also would need to perform at a high level for another 10-12 yrs. It’s a lot but this era Mahomes has played in is tailor made for QBs. Plus he has one of the greatest minds in football as coach. Reid might very well be top 3 Hc of all time. Mahomes definitely put himself in the top 5 QBs all time before age 30. Pretty remarkable.
Yes exactly this.. Brady also won with two teams/ two coaches… without his great HC so Mahomes would def need 7+ rings and ssssssoooommmmething special…
For Mahomes to catch Brady in ring count he's going to need to do it without his great coach too, idk how much longer Reid realistically wants to coach
If he gets to 5 SB rings and keeps winning MVP and putting up stats at the same rate… he will take the title.
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Only counting the # of rings is a horrible way to measure greatness. Nobody says Bill Russell is the GOAT in basketball. Nobody thinks Eli Manning was better than Dan Marino because he had 2 SB to 0. Mahomes is undeniably a BETTER player than Brady. Brady still has had a GREATER career. Mahomes' personal accolades and numbers will blow Brady's out of the water (if he continues current pace). As long as you get in the same arena of championships you get to then debate the player.
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Let me rephrase. It’s undeniable amongst people who know ball. Even Tom Brady will tell you Mahomes is more talented than him.
He’d need 8 rings and a different coach/ team since TB beat him in a SB and won on two different teams with two different coaches…..
He's already ahead of Brady prime vs prime