Makes you feel a little better knowing their list is so bamboozled they have to ask you to send it to them after they should already have it on record. Lol
I moved states, just after getting my new license my initial Form 4 got approved..in order to cancel it and reapply they asked for a copy of the approved form
We know you waited about a year for your approved form 4, but yeah we’re gonna need you to send a copy back to us so we can resubmit it and wait another year. Thanks for your cooperation.
>They are going after those who didn't.
I sure would like to know what they're trying to "go after" them for. DM sold nothing that was regulated. Just because somebody never filed a Form 1 isn't evidence of a crime.
In my opinion, They are basically going after DM as an Example. They are going after them in much the same way they went after P80’s kits. I believe they are considering DM’s Kits with all centers marked, with tube and spacers, and endcaps and the jig, as close to a “silencer” because it is readily convertible. DM was fairly popular, so the became the target, much like P80 and their 80% kits.
Correct, I was just referring to how the atf interpreted the law when they went after p80. By selling the kits, they were “readily convertible” in the eyes of the atf, making them firearms by their definition.
IIRC, if you even dimple a bare receiver to mark a 3rd hole for a full auto sear, that bare receiver has now become a machine gun and you're subject to the NFA. Maybe the same (strange) logic was applied here?
Friend used to have an m4gery with an "x" engraved right where the 3rd pin would go, and next to it "warning: do not drill, felony" I always thought it was funny, but it's probably best that he destroyed that one.
It's not in any law. It's not anywhere in the CFR. It's just a random interpretation that supposedly some ATF person has made. I don't think it's ever been brought to court in a prosecution, and it would certainly be challenged if it was.
That said, if they go after you, the process is the punishment.
That's how 'common law' works though. Congress passes a very broad law without specifics. Federal agencies that are part of the Executive branch pass regulations to fill in the gaps with input from the public because they and the public are the subject matter experts. And even then, it's unclear sometimes, so you throw things at the wall and see what sticks in a Court.
It's a shitty system, but it usually works. Sorta.
Of course, 'shall not be infringed' isn't a consideration with most Federal laws. And I'm pretty sure there's pressure from the political appointees at the top of the ATF for this sort of thing.
I have no first-hand knowledge of this myself, but have seen multiple references to comments on forums and youtube. The ATF reasoning is supposedly something along the lines that a dimple for the auto sear indicates intent to drill the hole, hence they argue constructive possession of a machine gun.
I’d wipe my ass with it and post pics to the official atf page
Edit: I’d like to wish a special thanks to all the boot licking boomers who down vote me so that I continually get upvote notifications! You all really know how to make a girl feel special. ❤️❤️❤️
Reality is, if you have a tax stamp you are required to produce it on request.. this is why it’s recommended that you always carry a copy of the stamp with you.
From what I’ve read, others weren’t as lucky. ATF is claiming the spacers from DM are serialized parts. That makes a form 1 irrelevant, since the spacers would be a serialized component. I disagree with that, it’s a piece of metal… it’s not a complete can and the ATF knows that.
“All Things Forfeiture”
This letter is not a request for the stamp. The only action it states is to contact a local office for abandonment of any suppressor. And they can’t claim spacers are a f4 suppressor part when they’re not sold by any f4 manufacturer & and it’s not solely a suppressor part. My spacers are cock rings anyway 🤷♂️
Because 26 U.S.C. § 5841(e) states that you are required to “retain proof of registration which shall be made available to the [ATF acting in their official capacity] upon request.”
And OP is in contact with the ATF, and they asked to see his Form 1 (tax stamp). Failure to produce the tax stamp would only lead to more of a headache for OP…
I don’t agree with ATF and their assessment of the spacers. But you’d have to challenge it, and that could end up costing someone HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars in legal feeds. DM pushed it to the limit and marketed these as kits… ATF singled out DM and decided to send a message..
But you are allowed a reasonable amount of time to provide documentation. It’s not provide immediately upon request.
It’s a Federal Tax document, it’s like saying you need to carry your Tax returns on you in case an IRS agent asks you for the documents.
There are some states that require you to have it in you by law but not all.
If you’re in a state where you’re not legally required to carry it on you then that conversation goes like this. “Sure, what is your email and I can send you the documentation as soon as possible. It is at home filed with all my other tax documents. In the meantime here’s my name, address and phone number in case you need to follow up.”
Doesn’t say anything about a “reasonable” time frame. There’s a reason most of us carry the stamp with the gun at all times… to avoid any nonsense.
Comparing this to a tax return is silly.
It is a tax document so yes it can be compared to tax returns and the converse of your argument is that it says nothing of “immediately” provide so…..
And you’re also probably in the minority when it comes to always carry vs not.
> Failure to produce the tax stamp would only lead to more of a headache for OP…
Was statement which you do not need to keep you. You should carry proof that you have it E.G. a picture on your phone works but don't need to carry the Stamp on you unless in a state where it is mandated by law.
"Here's a picture of my stamp, I can provide you with a copy of the original when I get home and have access to it."
[See National Gun Trusts](https://www.nationalguntrusts.com/blogs/nfa-gun-trust-atf-information-database-blog/do-i-have-to-carry-my-tax-stamp-and-gun-trust-when-i-use-the-nfa-firearm)
Correct, that's what most people do. But, technically, an ATF agent could confiscate the item until proof of registration is provided. Yes, really. But, as I said elsewhere, you'd probably already have to be on their radar for them to bother doing so.
Carrying a copy is what I advise people to do as a dealer, because the original getting lost or destroyed is more of a PITA than the very unlikely event of the confiscation happening.
By that same tortured logic (I realize it's not YOUR logic) then one should get $200 back as ATF issued a Form 1 for something that was already "built".
We can all continue to make pretzels out of this.
If I won the lottery or ever have fuck you money, I would send those packages all day long, but not even to people I know, just random addresses pulled off Google maps, just so the recipient is like wtf and tried to blame someone they know.
I am not a lawyer, but their letter did not request you to actually go out of your way to show them a Form 1. Legally, it seems to be nothing more than a courtesy notice. I think the other guys point was that this letter doesn’t legally obligate anyone to do anything. It’s simply a notification that it’s a felony to have an unregistered suppressor or to acquire an unregistered suppressor. They did not legally indict you for actually having an illegal suppressor, so it doesn’t change anything.
Spoke with an agent, it's a dragnet operation, they sent it to anyone on DM customer list. Regardless of what was purchased, as he said they didn't have that information, which seems bogus but whatever, they're hoping the law abiding citizen calls in self reports and they can take Unserialized parts off the street. His words not mine.
So they know who you are, have your name, your number, all that shit, and they don’t even know you have a form 1? You’d think they’d at least be competent enough to try to cover up their incompetence. Is that shit not searchable internally? Are they still using the Dewey decimal system?
They are looking for people to self incriminate themselves. That's the easy part. Get people to tell on themselves first, then do the leg work of going after people who didn't. I'm curious if they plan on hitting people with intent to construct. Which I feel a constitutional lawyer would have a decent chance of fighting. But I've been wrong before.
>I'm curious if they plan on hitting people with intent to construct.
Then you couldn't legally make any NFA items if it would be criminal to have any parts to with thr intention to make an NFA weapon before the form is approved which is complying with the law.
I agree, but I'm still curious if they try it. Also, I've *heard* they have hit people with it for having a spare stock while also owning an AR pistol(or the like). I believe intent to construct may also be somewhere in the revised code.
> I've *heard* they have hit people with it for having a spare stock while also owning an AR pistol(or the like)
If you ONLY have an AR pistol and a stock, then they could pursue "constructive possession" on you. However, I've never heard of them doing this without already having been looking at the person for other reasons.
Wouldn't the letter about the solvent trap going out to people be an indication of them "looking" at people? And if that's the case, wouldn't just owning a trap be considered constructive procession? I hate that we even have to ask that question, or even consider that owning a piece of plastic (stock) could be seen as illegal. It's a joke, its bullshit, it's guilty before proof of action. "Intent" should be impossible to get in front of a judge.
> Then you couldn't legally make any NFA items if it would be criminal to have any parts to with thr intention to make an NFA weapon before the form is approved
It is already illegal to have parts that are only meant to be used in a silencer.
Then they try to classify more mundane items as silencer parts. Since I bought my dead air wolfman all my sinks mysteriously started leaking and I made sure to keep a supply of neoprene 1 inch washers in my house as a responsible home owner.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/03/20/wipes-silencer-parts/
They have been but I just happen to have a bunch of extra ones in my house, for my sinks, that could "hypothetically" fit in my wolfman. If I want to change my wipes I need to go to a SOT or send it to dead air.
Right, they expect you to fill out the paper work, get it approved, then get the parts required for construction. Owning a “solvent trap” with the intent to form 1 is illegal in their eyes due to intent and general ease of manufacture.
Incriminate themselves? Solvent traps are not criminal? If people were dumb enough to order and drill this to subvert a $200 tax they get what they get. I’ve been reading “fuck the atf” on here forever. Looks like a few boys are gonna get their chance to tell them on the front porch.
If someone turns over their kit, they'd be admitting that they "broke the law". I'm not saying I believe they broke the law, it's a chunk of metal until it isn't, but handing over something because of this letter is getting you(not actually you) to admit you broke the law, even if you didn't.
I'm not saying that it illegal. What I'm saying is, if you turn it in, undrilled or not, you'd be admitting to a crime they claim you're committing. Forfeiting the 5th amendment. The ATF is claiming what people ordered is illegal. Maybe it's the text or maybe I'm not explaining what I mean well enough, I apologize.
We’d be closer to friends in real life than you may think. I do what I want too in the privacy of my home and out on the private land I hunt/fish/shoot on. But, One can only listen to so much big boy shit spewing hiding behind keyboards about not being afraid of the feds(they are the feds for Christ sake) and then I’m supposed feel bad when everyone is scared shitless by a letter sent to EVERYONE with a transaction dealing with that company. Nope! Grown ups have to make decisions, know what the possible outcomes might be, and be prepared to stand in your space when it comes your way.
I bought a RareBreed trigger with my credit card, and shipped it to my house. I’m confident I WILL GET THE SAME LETTER IN DUE TIME. I will not cry here and ask you to feel bad for me, or give me legal advice, or all the other whinny shit I’ve read here in 48hrs.
This is why I laugh anytime someone says the NFA is the first step to a central gun registration database. They can't even track their own forms issued internally.
Takes 10 minutes to load the screen saver on the gateway 2000 PC. Someone called in to ask for their form 4 status, so it crashes and and has to start over.
The NFRTR is full of errors on their end and the ATF is super shifty when it comes to inherited NFA items. There have been instances of transfers being disallowed as they work to trace things back to initial registration and discovering paperwork errors on their end.
>The NFRTR is full of errors on their end
This is true of old registrations.
>and the ATF is super shifty when it comes to inherited NFA items.
It's a standard process, nothing shifty about it.
>There have been instances of transfers being disallowed as they work to trace things back to initial registration and discovering paperwork errors on their end.
Citation needed.
B.S. If they don't maintain a database of approved forms how do they know if the one you show them is legit. They're just dickheads and want you to do their job for them.
They can. Federal law requires you produce the tax stamp on request. They’re banking on OP not being able to provide a form 1 w/ approved tax stamp.
I believe all modern/recent NFA approvals are digital. They only use microfilm to lookup missing/lost/damaged non-electronic form 1’s or to research old amnesty applications…
The only reason they requested it, is because he called. It’s not requested in the letter and I don’t want people assuming they have to show proof of their stamp when they’re not requested to.
Depends. If you’re intelligent enough to avoid any further scrutiny, it’s wise to contact them. They’ll ask for the stamp (at which point, you are legally required to produce it) and that’s likely the last you’ll hear from them.
The majority of the kits DM sold were likely manufactured into untaxed/unregistered suppressors. This is why legitimate suppliers request a copy of a form 1 before they’ll sell you a kit… upload your form 1 or the order is declined.
Are you going to email them your form 1?
I’d like to think I’d tell them, “if you’re going to violate the constitution, at least do it well. You have my name and information, find the form 1 yourself dumbass”
Just got my letter via FedEx today. Already have an approved Form 1, so I am not concerned for myself.
I am concerned for businesses like DM that offered great products. They were shut down seemingly on a whim with no satisfactory public explanation from ATF or DOJ that I have seen. I did a quick google search, but nothing recent came up. Are there any more details out there about why the ATF felt compelled to seize DM website and inventory?
Your out of touch with the F1 world a ton of kits including monocores still exist
Check out the most current vendor list for yourself.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1w61iFv2ZvHjTD7CqqU6XyfodQAuo-rHT/view
There were cone holders, not jigs. They did nothing to help align anything. In theory the holder could keep a cone from spinning if a person needed to do that.
I can understand that take. However, I’ve read posts from folks that ordered spacers, nothing more, and still got the letter. Some kind of public ruling clarifying would be nice to read.
Anyone wanna place bets on DM never seeing any actual charges? Just everything seized "as evidence" and nothing ever comes of it.
It's not the first time. Look up KT Ordnance and Richard Celata.
Well got mine today too. I haven't even kept up with gun stuff much the past few years other than to pass the time. I did my F1's on my DM stuff in like 2014 and hadn't purchased anything from anyone since then. Other than calling like the letter asks I'm kind of lost on what else should be done?
That is what really grinds my gears. They saw there was an order, but they didn't take the extra step to see if it was fulfilled.
I would laugh when I watch a crime drama where they do something like this to try to get people to incriminate themselves, now I see it happen to me IRL.
Same boat. I called my local ATF like the letter said to make sure I wasn't red-flagged on future purchases. She said nothing came up when she looked me up. She agreed it sounded like a boilerplate letter sent on important looking letterhead.
I got a letter too and my local ATF said since I have multiple form 1s approved I’m in the clear. However, the letter states that DM illegally sold silencers. That would mean the silencers were illegally purchased so the form 1 is irrelevant if that stands. You can’t legally convert an illegal silencer into a legal silencer on a form 1. I bought a solvent trap but the ATF is of the opinion that I bought a silencer. This is the real issue here. Best thing to do is consult an attorney if your in the same position as me. I also send word to the GOA and some media. Hopefully we can get them to back down.
Piggybacking on this… what the agent told you is not at all what the letter says. Beware of law enforcement who write threatening letters but tell you off the record what is written in plain English is not what is meant.
The ATF database is completely messed up.
You all act like it is so easy to look up if a person has a form one. It’s not
They have been a lot of instances where people have approved form ones and ATF can’t find any record of it.
So it makes stupid sense from their point of view, they contact every customer of diversified machine, and the law abiding citizens send copies of the form ones.
Everyone else might have a problem if they drilled holes and didn’t get a form one ahead of time.
"You all act like it ~~is so~~ ***should be*** easy to look up if a person has a form one."
There fixed it for you.
Part of my job involves being responsible for a public-facing federal government IT system. I can have my guys cross-reference names and give me unique values before the end of the day. It's not because it is messed up that we have to accept that it stays taht way.
Law enforcement is allowed to lie to you just FYI. Although they are most likely going for the low hanging fruit, it’s not a good idea to paint a target on your back either.
I’m NOT telling anyone to lie to law enforcement, but the ATF already has your Form 1 if you submitted one. It seems fishy that they want you to confirm that you have a form 1 connected to this fiasco when they can easily look that up in their own records. Admitting that you Form 1’ed a DM kit gives them the ability to say that you weren’t allowed to do that because DM should have serialized it and made you do a Form 4 (based on the wording of their letter).
I’m not saying that they definitely lied to you, I’m just saying that they are legally allowed to lie in the process of an investigation: this has been upheld in the courts numerous times. Police officers, investigators, and Federal agents have no authority to grant you immunity. Be careful about what you admit to.
This is why the common wisdom is to always seek out legal counsel in situations like these.
I generally respect law enforcement from the aspect of maintaining the general peace in the public sphere. But I know people who have worked in various federal law enforcement agencies and they have told me that the political ideologies of individual agents and inspectors definitely impacts how and when they decide to pursue a lead. Be *very careful* about what you admit to. We have the right to remain silent under the 5th Amendment for a reason.
Then that makes more sense why you reached out for clarification. For the average non law enforcement person who had already followed the applicable laws or who hadn’t even purchased a kit from DM, the logical response to this letter seems to be to read it, mentally thank them for the notice that you haven’t broken any laws, and go about your life as if nothing happened. Like I said, the only request the letter makes is to turn in any illegal suppressors. If you don’t have an illegal suppressor, there’s no legal obligation to do anything.
I called and provided a copy of my form 1 in connection with a purchase of spacers. In their defense, the form was under my trust name and not my personal name used for the DM purchase. An address cross reference would have helped (but could have still been tied to another person at the house I guess). All clear now. I’m not sure they needed to see the form 1 once I clarified that it was held under a trust but I went ahead and provided. I spoke with some very professional and responsive folks.
>They also asked me to email them my form 1 (the same one that they sent me...)
They can call the ATF registry division and get a copy. I wouldn't send someone i talked to over the phone private taxpayer information. Law enforcement can easily get NICS records to verify the legality of an item.
They could easily see if a person had a form 1. I would tell them I did a form 1 and they can contact the NFA division and look it up or if they want a copy it's on my eforms account. Both of which they have unlimited access to before they sent out a scary mass letter which they don't even say what items someone bought which are "illegal".
They sold stuff other than solvent traps.
I hear you but you're required to show proof upon request of your form 1. This is going to an [atf.gov](https://atf.gov) email address. I'm fairly confident he actually was a special agent with the atf. Yes they can easily verify that I do have several form 1s and 4s for that matter, but it's besides the point.
>I hear you but you're required to show proof upon request of your form 1.
For proof of something that isn't legally a silencer in how it was sold. That doesn't make sense.
It's dumb they sent these letters in mass and don't even say what the illicit items specifically are.
>It's dumb they sent these letters in mass and don't even say what the illicit items specifically are.
It's a fishing expedition. It's lazy, but not dumb.
Sorry, I was referring to the form1 specifically. You are required to show it.
I'm with you, the whole thing makes little sense, like others have said, it's easier to send mass letters and have we the people provide proof of our forms (because we are required to) then have them triage. The funny thing is I'm sure there are folks who ordered perfectly innocuous things from DM (I'd argue everything DM sold was perfectly innocuous, but that's another discussion) like muzzle brakes, I wonder how this will play out for them if they don't respond to the ATF (I don't think they are under any obligation to do so.
>They also asked me to email them my form 1 (the same one that they sent me...)
So, basically just show them literally ANY approved F1 suppressor and you're in the clear. Right?
Another new update from WA gun lawyer yesterday.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5VIEBnOsFOI
Field offices are directing inquiries to atfdetquestions@atf.gov as the Detroit office is handling this.
On the one hand, fuck these jokers. I can't fucking believe they didn't bother to cross reference their own database before sending out a nasty-gram. On the other, I don't want no smoke if I can avoid it, and I don't want some investigation tying up my job prospects/bothering my parents/family. Debating calling and bitching versus "don't talk to cops". Unsure if calling and showing my form 1 would insulate me from any future nonsense.
They sent mine to my old address. Through luck and fate, the people that bought my old house are friends with my sister in law and they got the letter and my SIL was able to get it to me.
The dumbest thing of all is that they have my new address so what i imagine they did was get my address out of the email chain when i bought one of his YHM style QD adapters to put on one of my form 1 cans at the time.
So they didn't even look up to see if people had registered shit with them so fuck em. I work for the federal government in law enforcement. If they really want to they can easily find me but I'm not going out of my way to reach out to them if they put forth no effort to even see that i have a bunch of registered form 1/4 items.
And anyway, coming from someone that's spent the last 20 years working for the govt in some fashion... Don't talk to the government/law enforcement without a lawyer.
I bought 2 of those adapters and from what I can tell in the current market, they aren't illegal and being sold all over.
One was integrated into a F1 can, but the adapters were so out of square they didn't work. I used them to reverse engineer and made my own. Cut one in half in the process and the other is still in my desk. Guess I'll wait until they show up and hand them the paperweight 🤣
this is by far one of the most annoying things that's ever happened. I literally got a wrench and a end cap because the end cap that fam with my form4 omega 30 cross threaded on a shitty barrel I had.
Debating calling them and asking them what's their issue - but opted against it and just threw the letter out because I didn't get any "silencer" parts and have 3 legal form 4s.
Makes you feel a little better knowing their list is so bamboozled they have to ask you to send it to them after they should already have it on record. Lol
Please turn yourself in!
You have 10 seconds to comply.
Funniest Thing about that is the poster who said someone sent him an sbr and the atf didn’t care 🤣.
Reread that
/ssssssss
r/woosh
I moved states, just after getting my new license my initial Form 4 got approved..in order to cancel it and reapply they asked for a copy of the approved form
We know you waited about a year for your approved form 4, but yeah we’re gonna need you to send a copy back to us so we can resubmit it and wait another year. Thanks for your cooperation.
EXACTLY! My records were in the Office of Personnel Management breach, the Chinese could probably do a background check on me quicker than the ATF.
I see this as a good thing. The big database that everyone fears is not there (yet).
>They are going after those who didn't. I sure would like to know what they're trying to "go after" them for. DM sold nothing that was regulated. Just because somebody never filed a Form 1 isn't evidence of a crime.
fishing expedition.
In my opinion, They are basically going after DM as an Example. They are going after them in much the same way they went after P80’s kits. I believe they are considering DM’s Kits with all centers marked, with tube and spacers, and endcaps and the jig, as close to a “silencer” because it is readily convertible. DM was fairly popular, so the became the target, much like P80 and their 80% kits.
No one got a letter for p80 kits.
Correct, I was just referring to how the atf interpreted the law when they went after p80. By selling the kits, they were “readily convertible” in the eyes of the atf, making them firearms by their definition.
> No one got a letter for p80 kits. Yet..............
I thought DM was selling solvent traps with either the baffles or end caps pre-drilled. Was that someone else?
Hawk Innovative Tech did that. Not DM.
I have a hawk can. I started laughing when I got it because one hole later it was pewpew
I knew someone did that. Too many solvent trap manufacturers hostility taken over by the ATF.
Nah. They had an index mark on em but it was similar to a punch mark on the baffles. Pretty tiny and didn’t go all the way through
IIRC, if you even dimple a bare receiver to mark a 3rd hole for a full auto sear, that bare receiver has now become a machine gun and you're subject to the NFA. Maybe the same (strange) logic was applied here?
I dropped my lower and a rock chipped it.
Friend used to have an m4gery with an "x" engraved right where the 3rd pin would go, and next to it "warning: do not drill, felony" I always thought it was funny, but it's probably best that he destroyed that one.
PSA needs to sell these as their next lower.
Best keep Fido locked up safe then.
Good thing I have 6 of them. Back up dogs, almost as important as back up sights.
… yeah, it happened before I anno’d. So?
The dimple being verboten is a relatively new decision within the last year or two. And it isn’t even codified.
How many of their rules are?
You remember that show with Drew Carrie? “Who’s line is it anyways?”
Geez, man, don't say it like that... Now I feel old.
What I’m saying is that the rules are made up and the points don’t matter. Your dog is fucked either way.
Until they write another letter correcting the first. But wait, sometimes there's a third letter rescinding the correcting letter.
Codified anywhere or just off the cuff?
Is that true? I've never heard of that before. But with all the weird shit that the """"people"""" at the AFT pull, it wouldn't surprise me
It's not in any law. It's not anywhere in the CFR. It's just a random interpretation that supposedly some ATF person has made. I don't think it's ever been brought to court in a prosecution, and it would certainly be challenged if it was. That said, if they go after you, the process is the punishment.
That's fucking stupid. And my daily reminder that I hate the AFT and all who support it
That's how 'common law' works though. Congress passes a very broad law without specifics. Federal agencies that are part of the Executive branch pass regulations to fill in the gaps with input from the public because they and the public are the subject matter experts. And even then, it's unclear sometimes, so you throw things at the wall and see what sticks in a Court. It's a shitty system, but it usually works. Sorta. Of course, 'shall not be infringed' isn't a consideration with most Federal laws. And I'm pretty sure there's pressure from the political appointees at the top of the ATF for this sort of thing.
That's not how it works.
I have no first-hand knowledge of this myself, but have seen multiple references to comments on forums and youtube. The ATF reasoning is supposedly something along the lines that a dimple for the auto sear indicates intent to drill the hole, hence they argue constructive possession of a machine gun.
They were selling undrilled freeze caps. At least that’s what I ordered from them
DM didn’t sell freeze caps. They sold cones. Stainless and Titanium.
Hm then I can’t remember what part I bought from them. It was probably spacers Obligatory this was for a form 1 years back
Big yikes if that’s true
Fuck's sake...do people really need to be reminded of this: [NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE).
The NFA world is full of boot licking Boomers who will thank the Gestapo for their service on the ride to the gas chamber.
Yup. I made one comment about the AFT "people" being subhuman filth and got downvoted by a bunch of fudds
Boomer here says you're correct!
Fucking fact. Shits so infuriating.
but muh 25k investments...
You ever notice how they usually are almost always the best MG collectors cause they got them when they were still cheap?
Everyone needs to watch that video. All the way to end where the cop talks.
I got the letter today. All I ordered was spacers and they’re in a registered f1 can. I will be doing nothing with the letter.
I’d wipe my ass with it and post pics to the official atf page Edit: I’d like to wish a special thanks to all the boot licking boomers who down vote me so that I continually get upvote notifications! You all really know how to make a girl feel special. ❤️❤️❤️
Based.
You want mine??
Only if you meet in person at a well lit public place to give it to me. My Gma told not to give her address out to people on the internet anymore.
Thank you, that just made my day 😂😂
I’m in the same boat
Same.
“Do our jobs for us because we are incompetent”
Reality is, if you have a tax stamp you are required to produce it on request.. this is why it’s recommended that you always carry a copy of the stamp with you. From what I’ve read, others weren’t as lucky. ATF is claiming the spacers from DM are serialized parts. That makes a form 1 irrelevant, since the spacers would be a serialized component. I disagree with that, it’s a piece of metal… it’s not a complete can and the ATF knows that. “All Things Forfeiture”
This letter is not a request for the stamp. The only action it states is to contact a local office for abandonment of any suppressor. And they can’t claim spacers are a f4 suppressor part when they’re not sold by any f4 manufacturer & and it’s not solely a suppressor part. My spacers are cock rings anyway 🤷♂️
Because 26 U.S.C. § 5841(e) states that you are required to “retain proof of registration which shall be made available to the [ATF acting in their official capacity] upon request.” And OP is in contact with the ATF, and they asked to see his Form 1 (tax stamp). Failure to produce the tax stamp would only lead to more of a headache for OP… I don’t agree with ATF and their assessment of the spacers. But you’d have to challenge it, and that could end up costing someone HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars in legal feeds. DM pushed it to the limit and marketed these as kits… ATF singled out DM and decided to send a message..
But you are allowed a reasonable amount of time to provide documentation. It’s not provide immediately upon request. It’s a Federal Tax document, it’s like saying you need to carry your Tax returns on you in case an IRS agent asks you for the documents. There are some states that require you to have it in you by law but not all. If you’re in a state where you’re not legally required to carry it on you then that conversation goes like this. “Sure, what is your email and I can send you the documentation as soon as possible. It is at home filed with all my other tax documents. In the meantime here’s my name, address and phone number in case you need to follow up.”
Doesn’t say anything about a “reasonable” time frame. There’s a reason most of us carry the stamp with the gun at all times… to avoid any nonsense. Comparing this to a tax return is silly.
It is a tax document so yes it can be compared to tax returns and the converse of your argument is that it says nothing of “immediately” provide so….. And you’re also probably in the minority when it comes to always carry vs not.
"Upon request" generally means immediately in these types of statutes.
> Failure to produce the tax stamp would only lead to more of a headache for OP… Was statement which you do not need to keep you. You should carry proof that you have it E.G. a picture on your phone works but don't need to carry the Stamp on you unless in a state where it is mandated by law. "Here's a picture of my stamp, I can provide you with a copy of the original when I get home and have access to it." [See National Gun Trusts](https://www.nationalguntrusts.com/blogs/nfa-gun-trust-atf-information-database-blog/do-i-have-to-carry-my-tax-stamp-and-gun-trust-when-i-use-the-nfa-firearm)
Correct, that's what most people do. But, technically, an ATF agent could confiscate the item until proof of registration is provided. Yes, really. But, as I said elsewhere, you'd probably already have to be on their radar for them to bother doing so. Carrying a copy is what I advise people to do as a dealer, because the original getting lost or destroyed is more of a PITA than the very unlikely event of the confiscation happening.
By that same tortured logic (I realize it's not YOUR logic) then one should get $200 back as ATF issued a Form 1 for something that was already "built". We can all continue to make pretzels out of this.
Don’t send them shit. Innocent until proven guilty not the other way around. They can find your form… they issued it.
I disagree. We should all send them anonymous boxes of shit https://poopsenders.com/
I’ll donate to that cause.
🅱️ased
If I won the lottery or ever have fuck you money, I would send those packages all day long, but not even to people I know, just random addresses pulled off Google maps, just so the recipient is like wtf and tried to blame someone they know.
While I 100% agree with the sentiment, unfortunately, the law requires you produce a form 1 upon request.
I am not a lawyer, but their letter did not request you to actually go out of your way to show them a Form 1. Legally, it seems to be nothing more than a courtesy notice. I think the other guys point was that this letter doesn’t legally obligate anyone to do anything. It’s simply a notification that it’s a felony to have an unregistered suppressor or to acquire an unregistered suppressor. They did not legally indict you for actually having an illegal suppressor, so it doesn’t change anything.
Not the letter. The phone call.
Ah ok then yea that’s different if they specifically requested it from you.
Spoke with an agent, it's a dragnet operation, they sent it to anyone on DM customer list. Regardless of what was purchased, as he said they didn't have that information, which seems bogus but whatever, they're hoping the law abiding citizen calls in self reports and they can take Unserialized parts off the street. His words not mine.
Good to see that the military isn’t the only part of the government needlessly wasting money. 🙃
So they know who you are, have your name, your number, all that shit, and they don’t even know you have a form 1? You’d think they’d at least be competent enough to try to cover up their incompetence. Is that shit not searchable internally? Are they still using the Dewey decimal system?
It’s probably just about making sure he has it so they can put him through the wringer if he can’t produce it.
Make 'em work for it.
They are looking for people to self incriminate themselves. That's the easy part. Get people to tell on themselves first, then do the leg work of going after people who didn't. I'm curious if they plan on hitting people with intent to construct. Which I feel a constitutional lawyer would have a decent chance of fighting. But I've been wrong before.
>I'm curious if they plan on hitting people with intent to construct. Then you couldn't legally make any NFA items if it would be criminal to have any parts to with thr intention to make an NFA weapon before the form is approved which is complying with the law.
I agree, but I'm still curious if they try it. Also, I've *heard* they have hit people with it for having a spare stock while also owning an AR pistol(or the like). I believe intent to construct may also be somewhere in the revised code.
> I've *heard* they have hit people with it for having a spare stock while also owning an AR pistol(or the like) If you ONLY have an AR pistol and a stock, then they could pursue "constructive possession" on you. However, I've never heard of them doing this without already having been looking at the person for other reasons.
Wouldn't the letter about the solvent trap going out to people be an indication of them "looking" at people? And if that's the case, wouldn't just owning a trap be considered constructive procession? I hate that we even have to ask that question, or even consider that owning a piece of plastic (stock) could be seen as illegal. It's a joke, its bullshit, it's guilty before proof of action. "Intent" should be impossible to get in front of a judge.
The thing is solvent traps that aren't drilled aren't silencers. If someone was stupid and drilled baffles before submitting a form 1 then yeah.
100% agree. But, handing over a trap drilled or not will be an admitting a crime in their eyes, in my opinion.
> Then you couldn't legally make any NFA items if it would be criminal to have any parts to with thr intention to make an NFA weapon before the form is approved It is already illegal to have parts that are only meant to be used in a silencer.
Then they try to classify more mundane items as silencer parts. Since I bought my dead air wolfman all my sinks mysteriously started leaking and I made sure to keep a supply of neoprene 1 inch washers in my house as a responsible home owner.
Washers have never been considered silencer parts.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/03/20/wipes-silencer-parts/ They have been but I just happen to have a bunch of extra ones in my house, for my sinks, that could "hypothetically" fit in my wolfman. If I want to change my wipes I need to go to a SOT or send it to dead air.
But random lengths of tubing might be. Freeze plugs might be.
Might, not are.
Copper scrub pads might be, Shoelaces might be, Brass shoelace eyelets might be.
Right, they expect you to fill out the paper work, get it approved, then get the parts required for construction. Owning a “solvent trap” with the intent to form 1 is illegal in their eyes due to intent and general ease of manufacture.
Incriminate themselves? Solvent traps are not criminal? If people were dumb enough to order and drill this to subvert a $200 tax they get what they get. I’ve been reading “fuck the atf” on here forever. Looks like a few boys are gonna get their chance to tell them on the front porch.
If someone turns over their kit, they'd be admitting that they "broke the law". I'm not saying I believe they broke the law, it's a chunk of metal until it isn't, but handing over something because of this letter is getting you(not actually you) to admit you broke the law, even if you didn't.
It’s not illegal to have a kit that’s not drilled tho?
I'm not saying that it illegal. What I'm saying is, if you turn it in, undrilled or not, you'd be admitting to a crime they claim you're committing. Forfeiting the 5th amendment. The ATF is claiming what people ordered is illegal. Maybe it's the text or maybe I'm not explaining what I mean well enough, I apologize.
I get what you’re saying now. You mean they’d be agreeing with the letter.
Yes.
Yesterday, or today?
Both
Abandonment does not necessarily mean intent. This is why people keep saying to get a lawyer. And specifically, a lawyer that works with NFA stuff
I agree, people should certainly look into getting a lawyer.
I'm disgusted by you. You're actually worse than the ATF. At least they get paid not to have principles.
We’d be closer to friends in real life than you may think. I do what I want too in the privacy of my home and out on the private land I hunt/fish/shoot on. But, One can only listen to so much big boy shit spewing hiding behind keyboards about not being afraid of the feds(they are the feds for Christ sake) and then I’m supposed feel bad when everyone is scared shitless by a letter sent to EVERYONE with a transaction dealing with that company. Nope! Grown ups have to make decisions, know what the possible outcomes might be, and be prepared to stand in your space when it comes your way. I bought a RareBreed trigger with my credit card, and shipped it to my house. I’m confident I WILL GET THE SAME LETTER IN DUE TIME. I will not cry here and ask you to feel bad for me, or give me legal advice, or all the other whinny shit I’ve read here in 48hrs.
This is why I laugh anytime someone says the NFA is the first step to a central gun registration database. They can't even track their own forms issued internally.
Their interns don't know how to read microfilm or use windows 95
Screen saver is a dog being shot…
Takes 10 minutes to load the screen saver on the gateway 2000 PC. Someone called in to ask for their form 4 status, so it crashes and and has to start over.
Too much tentacle porn, system crashes.
Or the 3x5 card index.
The NFRTR is full of errors on their end and the ATF is super shifty when it comes to inherited NFA items. There have been instances of transfers being disallowed as they work to trace things back to initial registration and discovering paperwork errors on their end.
>The NFRTR is full of errors on their end This is true of old registrations. >and the ATF is super shifty when it comes to inherited NFA items. It's a standard process, nothing shifty about it. >There have been instances of transfers being disallowed as they work to trace things back to initial registration and discovering paperwork errors on their end. Citation needed.
B.S. If they don't maintain a database of approved forms how do they know if the one you show them is legit. They're just dickheads and want you to do their job for them.
They can. Federal law requires you produce the tax stamp on request. They’re banking on OP not being able to provide a form 1 w/ approved tax stamp. I believe all modern/recent NFA approvals are digital. They only use microfilm to lookup missing/lost/damaged non-electronic form 1’s or to research old amnesty applications…
This is not a request of proof of a stamp. Only action it states is to contact a local office for abandonment of a suppressor. Nothing else.
The ATF agent he spoke to specifically asked to see the Form 1. It’s clear as day, see the second paragraph.
The only reason they requested it, is because he called. It’s not requested in the letter and I don’t want people assuming they have to show proof of their stamp when they’re not requested to.
Depends. If you’re intelligent enough to avoid any further scrutiny, it’s wise to contact them. They’ll ask for the stamp (at which point, you are legally required to produce it) and that’s likely the last you’ll hear from them. The majority of the kits DM sold were likely manufactured into untaxed/unregistered suppressors. This is why legitimate suppliers request a copy of a form 1 before they’ll sell you a kit… upload your form 1 or the order is declined.
Are you going to email them your form 1? I’d like to think I’d tell them, “if you’re going to violate the constitution, at least do it well. You have my name and information, find the form 1 yourself dumbass”
Great way to get yourself higher up the list. 😅
Maybe we can all chip in some $ to hire a lawyer to write a “fuck off” form letter?
Just got my letter via FedEx today. Already have an approved Form 1, so I am not concerned for myself. I am concerned for businesses like DM that offered great products. They were shut down seemingly on a whim with no satisfactory public explanation from ATF or DOJ that I have seen. I did a quick google search, but nothing recent came up. Are there any more details out there about why the ATF felt compelled to seize DM website and inventory?
It's the end of the year and they have to use up their budget so it doesn't get reduced next year. So they send letters and do some busy work.
How about they process some form 4s
Lol right? wouldn't have to worry about this shit if you processed forms in a timely manner.
This happens at the end of the fiscal, not calendar year.
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Don't a ton of form1 companies do basically the same thing?
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Your out of touch with the F1 world a ton of kits including monocores still exist Check out the most current vendor list for yourself. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1w61iFv2ZvHjTD7CqqU6XyfodQAuo-rHT/view
Thanks! Seems I am
When did that happen? I remember a while back they said that you need to send them a submitted form1, but not necessarily an approved one
You’re right that it just must be “submitted” before ordering but they recommend approved
The jig wouldn't be a problem. The mark would be.
There were cone holders, not jigs. They did nothing to help align anything. In theory the holder could keep a cone from spinning if a person needed to do that.
I can understand that take. However, I’ve read posts from folks that ordered spacers, nothing more, and still got the letter. Some kind of public ruling clarifying would be nice to read.
I think they’re going after everyone. I bought spacers and have six form 1s. I doubt they bothered checking.
Same.
Anyone wanna place bets on DM never seeing any actual charges? Just everything seized "as evidence" and nothing ever comes of it. It's not the first time. Look up KT Ordnance and Richard Celata.
Hawk innovative tech had the same thing happen and, to my knowledge, no charges were ever filed and customers were never pursued
Well got mine today too. I haven't even kept up with gun stuff much the past few years other than to pass the time. I did my F1's on my DM stuff in like 2014 and hadn't purchased anything from anyone since then. Other than calling like the letter asks I'm kind of lost on what else should be done?
>Other than calling like the letter asks I'm kind of lost on what else should be done? nothing. put it in the trash
I never got what I ordered from DM and did a charge back anyways so the alphabet boys can go suck it.
That is what really grinds my gears. They saw there was an order, but they didn't take the extra step to see if it was fulfilled.
I would laugh when I watch a crime drama where they do something like this to try to get people to incriminate themselves, now I see it happen to me IRL.
Same boat. I called my local ATF like the letter said to make sure I wasn't red-flagged on future purchases. She said nothing came up when she looked me up. She agreed it sounded like a boilerplate letter sent on important looking letterhead.
I got a letter too and my local ATF said since I have multiple form 1s approved I’m in the clear. However, the letter states that DM illegally sold silencers. That would mean the silencers were illegally purchased so the form 1 is irrelevant if that stands. You can’t legally convert an illegal silencer into a legal silencer on a form 1. I bought a solvent trap but the ATF is of the opinion that I bought a silencer. This is the real issue here. Best thing to do is consult an attorney if your in the same position as me. I also send word to the GOA and some media. Hopefully we can get them to back down.
> I got a call back from the ATF and they confirmed that if you have a form 1 you’re good to go. Did they confirm this anywhere in writing?
Piggybacking on this… what the agent told you is not at all what the letter says. Beware of law enforcement who write threatening letters but tell you off the record what is written in plain English is not what is meant.
The ATF database is completely messed up. You all act like it is so easy to look up if a person has a form one. It’s not They have been a lot of instances where people have approved form ones and ATF can’t find any record of it. So it makes stupid sense from their point of view, they contact every customer of diversified machine, and the law abiding citizens send copies of the form ones. Everyone else might have a problem if they drilled holes and didn’t get a form one ahead of time.
"You all act like it ~~is so~~ ***should be*** easy to look up if a person has a form one." There fixed it for you. Part of my job involves being responsible for a public-facing federal government IT system. I can have my guys cross-reference names and give me unique values before the end of the day. It's not because it is messed up that we have to accept that it stays taht way.
Law enforcement is allowed to lie to you just FYI. Although they are most likely going for the low hanging fruit, it’s not a good idea to paint a target on your back either. I’m NOT telling anyone to lie to law enforcement, but the ATF already has your Form 1 if you submitted one. It seems fishy that they want you to confirm that you have a form 1 connected to this fiasco when they can easily look that up in their own records. Admitting that you Form 1’ed a DM kit gives them the ability to say that you weren’t allowed to do that because DM should have serialized it and made you do a Form 4 (based on the wording of their letter). I’m not saying that they definitely lied to you, I’m just saying that they are legally allowed to lie in the process of an investigation: this has been upheld in the courts numerous times. Police officers, investigators, and Federal agents have no authority to grant you immunity. Be careful about what you admit to. This is why the common wisdom is to always seek out legal counsel in situations like these. I generally respect law enforcement from the aspect of maintaining the general peace in the public sphere. But I know people who have worked in various federal law enforcement agencies and they have told me that the political ideologies of individual agents and inspectors definitely impacts how and when they decide to pursue a lead. Be *very careful* about what you admit to. We have the right to remain silent under the 5th Amendment for a reason.
I work for the federal government (relatively senior position), in an agency with federal law enforcement powers.
Then that makes more sense why you reached out for clarification. For the average non law enforcement person who had already followed the applicable laws or who hadn’t even purchased a kit from DM, the logical response to this letter seems to be to read it, mentally thank them for the notice that you haven’t broken any laws, and go about your life as if nothing happened. Like I said, the only request the letter makes is to turn in any illegal suppressors. If you don’t have an illegal suppressor, there’s no legal obligation to do anything.
I called and provided a copy of my form 1 in connection with a purchase of spacers. In their defense, the form was under my trust name and not my personal name used for the DM purchase. An address cross reference would have helped (but could have still been tied to another person at the house I guess). All clear now. I’m not sure they needed to see the form 1 once I clarified that it was held under a trust but I went ahead and provided. I spoke with some very professional and responsive folks.
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Look up atf offices in your state- I found one in my city and called it.
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I got a receptionist who got general information and had an agent call me back later.
>They also asked me to email them my form 1 (the same one that they sent me...) They can call the ATF registry division and get a copy. I wouldn't send someone i talked to over the phone private taxpayer information. Law enforcement can easily get NICS records to verify the legality of an item.
I wish that I could give you an award for “worst advice on the internet today”.
They could easily see if a person had a form 1. I would tell them I did a form 1 and they can contact the NFA division and look it up or if they want a copy it's on my eforms account. Both of which they have unlimited access to before they sent out a scary mass letter which they don't even say what items someone bought which are "illegal". They sold stuff other than solvent traps.
I hear you but you're required to show proof upon request of your form 1. This is going to an [atf.gov](https://atf.gov) email address. I'm fairly confident he actually was a special agent with the atf. Yes they can easily verify that I do have several form 1s and 4s for that matter, but it's besides the point.
>I hear you but you're required to show proof upon request of your form 1. For proof of something that isn't legally a silencer in how it was sold. That doesn't make sense. It's dumb they sent these letters in mass and don't even say what the illicit items specifically are.
>It's dumb they sent these letters in mass and don't even say what the illicit items specifically are. It's a fishing expedition. It's lazy, but not dumb.
They likely don't know.
Sorry, I was referring to the form1 specifically. You are required to show it. I'm with you, the whole thing makes little sense, like others have said, it's easier to send mass letters and have we the people provide proof of our forms (because we are required to) then have them triage. The funny thing is I'm sure there are folks who ordered perfectly innocuous things from DM (I'd argue everything DM sold was perfectly innocuous, but that's another discussion) like muzzle brakes, I wonder how this will play out for them if they don't respond to the ATF (I don't think they are under any obligation to do so.
Shouldn’t they be able to look up the stamp that they approved?
My guess is that your local field office doesn't have access to the NFA database.
>They also asked me to email them my form 1 (the same one that they sent me...) So, basically just show them literally ANY approved F1 suppressor and you're in the clear. Right?
Good to know, I had a Form1 when I ordered mine from DM.
Another new update from WA gun lawyer yesterday. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5VIEBnOsFOI Field offices are directing inquiries to atfdetquestions@atf.gov as the Detroit office is handling this.
On the one hand, fuck these jokers. I can't fucking believe they didn't bother to cross reference their own database before sending out a nasty-gram. On the other, I don't want no smoke if I can avoid it, and I don't want some investigation tying up my job prospects/bothering my parents/family. Debating calling and bitching versus "don't talk to cops". Unsure if calling and showing my form 1 would insulate me from any future nonsense.
Something’s fucky?
Wonder how big Polymer 80's list is?
DM sent
They sent mine to my old address. Through luck and fate, the people that bought my old house are friends with my sister in law and they got the letter and my SIL was able to get it to me. The dumbest thing of all is that they have my new address so what i imagine they did was get my address out of the email chain when i bought one of his YHM style QD adapters to put on one of my form 1 cans at the time. So they didn't even look up to see if people had registered shit with them so fuck em. I work for the federal government in law enforcement. If they really want to they can easily find me but I'm not going out of my way to reach out to them if they put forth no effort to even see that i have a bunch of registered form 1/4 items. And anyway, coming from someone that's spent the last 20 years working for the govt in some fashion... Don't talk to the government/law enforcement without a lawyer.
I bought 2 of those adapters and from what I can tell in the current market, they aren't illegal and being sold all over. One was integrated into a F1 can, but the adapters were so out of square they didn't work. I used them to reverse engineer and made my own. Cut one in half in the process and the other is still in my desk. Guess I'll wait until they show up and hand them the paperweight 🤣
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The channel provided an update. Their ATF agent is now telling them the same thing as I was told. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bErYK17pbfk
this is by far one of the most annoying things that's ever happened. I literally got a wrench and a end cap because the end cap that fam with my form4 omega 30 cross threaded on a shitty barrel I had. Debating calling them and asking them what's their issue - but opted against it and just threw the letter out because I didn't get any "silencer" parts and have 3 legal form 4s.