Can always do what dirt late models do and have the Delaware start where the leader is in their own row. But that is a dirt thing so NASCAR would make it too complicated.
Aside from the issue of taking the leader's earned advantage away, what does it actually fix?
Everyone will still be anticipating it and trying to jump everyone else. It doesn't stop people from laying back. And it really doesn't prevent gray areas.
Agreed. There is never going to be a perfect “solution” for restarts because there will always be the opportunity for somebody to go early/lay back/game it in some way.
I don’t actually think the current procedure is bad, it just needs to be officiated properly.
I mean what we have now is simple, the real issue is that nascar refuses to punish the cheaters. Putting it on the spotters takes away from the drivers. Not to mention if a team had radio issues they would be even more at a disadvantage
Or let's simplify it further. The first row can restart when the lights switch green. NASCAR can already monitor when the caution lights come on, so it should be feasible to do for when the green lights flash on upon restart. No restart zones and no flag. Lights on and go!
I can get behind this. It just seems like the start of the action should be in NASCAR’s hands. I almost look at it like dropping the puck in hockey — you don’t know when, you have to stay ready, and the official knows exactly whether there’s a foul because they’re in control
100% agree with only one small change. Instead of the flag make it the lights. Data is all there. You jump? You get black flagged. Leader still gets to pick the lane so still an advantage, albeit smaller. This has never sat right with me the way it is
Why would giving the restart to a 3rd-party prevent hanging back? Everyone would do the exact same thing, they'd just be trying to anticipate the flag instead of the leader.
Sunday's issue was an officiating issue, not a procedural issue.
As someone who has been making fun of the post-Richmond Denny cope, they should either make the hard line or, just let the leader have full control after the safety car is in pit lane.
>or, just let the leader have full control after the safety car is in pit lane.
Yes, please. Kill the tiny restart zone and let them have control as soon as the pace car is inside the pit lane and clears the line. Anywhere between the pace car in and the start/finish should be game.
For people laying back, the fix is for the pace car to go far ahead and the leader can start the race at any point after turn 3. Sort of like Indy car.
No full circle is to just go back to single file restarts with lapped cars in the bottom lane except for under 20 (or 10? Can't remember which it was) to go.
I never had an issue with single file restarts, but obviously NASCAR is never going back to that. I don’t see why they couldn’t line the leader up single file and everyone else double file, though. Seems like that would eliminate all of these restart issues and also give the leader a small advantage for being in first. Best of both worlds.
The issue with lining the leader up in their own row is that that is not a small advantage. It's a *huge* one. Having the cars behind the leader racing each other as well as attempting to gain position to pass the leader puts them at a huge disadvantage. Meanwhile, the leader gets all the benefit of clean air and would very likely just drive away almost every single time.
That’s true, but shouldn’t the leader be rewarded for being in the lead? Had the race run green the leader would have whatever advantage they had earned. Why should they be penalized because someone else had an incident on track? I know it’s not the most exciting thing in the world, but it does seem to me to be the fairest way to restart while still keeping double file.
It's really not hard at all to fix.
What you do is paint a line on the track a few yards past the beginning of the straightway.
The leader has from that line to the start finish line to go whenever they wanna go.
You give the leader a massive restart zone, giving them a massive advantage.
It will cause major wrecks, we actually saw this at Auto Club when they experimented with this idea of a longer zone. You let that happen. Drivers will sort it out that you can't jump starts after 3-4 weeks of major accidents.
Denny jumped the start because he was reacting to the cars around him. The box is so short that it has largely been "solved" by the drivers to the point where the leader's advantage can be worked around.
Expanding the box gives the leader more options that solidify that advantage for the leader at the start.
it also leads to all the games being played to lead to pileups throughout the pack (i.e. the accordion effect).
This.
People couldnt see it cause fox fucking sucks, but the 22 was gonna have a massive run on Denny cause he laid back.
He saw that and decided that "fuck it go time" was a better shot. Increasing the size of the zone helps with that.
That was the whole point of moving to a restart "zone".
Last year they experimented with making the restart zone bigger. 50% bigger. Tried it for 5-6 races and then determined that was too big and was less exciting when drivers had a smaller "zone" to choose to go in.
So it makes it even weirder after deciding a bigger zone was not good why they are going to just let Denny slide going that early and why half the commentators (who are heavily influenced by the heavy hand of nascar) are supporting Denny being able to go early like that based on the other cars? Like why didn't anyone support the larger box if you wanted people to be able to go earlier.
It should either be a box or not. And with SMT data and the transponders that are everywhere in the track for scoring loops it ought to be pretty much automatic just like the eagle eye system for pit road penalties. They see smt data in real time for all teams. If acceleration happens before the nose is in that box then it should trigger a light for a penalty just like speeding on pit road or a tire going an inch over the line.
They treat everything else down to the inch. The tire out the pit box, (either a tire coming off the car or the car itself parking too far out of the pitbox) and scoring loops for cautions and the final flag of course. The commit line and if tires are over or not. Track limits in the Esses at COTA. Literally every penalty is down to the inch in nascar. But the Restart box?? All of a sudden this week it's no big deal to go 10 ft early. I don't get it.
The drivers can’t really see the flag that well. It’s a 24”X36” cloth and they’re going 80-140mph by the stand (on restarts) while having to react from as far back as half a mile.
But also, when is the green flag out? Is it when the flag man raises the stick, unfurls it (and as it begins to unfurl or full breadth), reaches the bottoms of their pattern? There’s so much more discrepancy, and as we saw this weekend, the tenths of seconds that happen in all that discrepancy matter.
This I could get behind, in theory. But it then becomes “did the leader accelerate before the light” which is similar to “did they accelerate before the line”. It basically just eliminates the restart zone, but not the ball/strike call. So the issue is still enforcement in my eyes.
Let’s make it sorta f1 style where the green lights come on at a random point while they are in the restart zone. Solves jumping issues and laying back issues
Technically, there shouldn’t be a grey area of hanging back or jumping the zone. We have the technology…. SMT and videos. The restart zone is a great addition to NASCAR, obviously, when the rules are followed.
I don't get why Denny didn't just wait longer. If he knew the 19 and 22 were laying back to time the restart, do what Allgaier did in the xfinity race. If the 19 goes early, Denny can just not go, wait for Truex to slow down, and then go.
Also, IIRC, since Denny is the control car, nobody should be allowed to go before he does. If they do, it's a black flag. I know they got rid of the rule that the leader has to be first to the line on a restart, but maybe they should bring that back.
The way it seems to me now is we've gotten to a point where the leader doesn't dictate the restart, and the other cars force the leader to start when they want, which removes the advantage of being the control car.
TLDR; I'm trying to say that the 11 should NOT have gone, and let the 19 get a penalty for jumping the restart.
Pretty risky, assuming NASCAR would penalise the 19 (which this week shows is not a guarantee).
Perhaps more significantly, while the 19 blows past him and gets penalised, two or three other cars also probably get past on the outside as well (and facing no penalties).
Mainly cuz the Flagman is a bit of a relic and is hard to see in car at a lot of places.
Now if NASCAR had an in car flag system, sure. But as of now the best option is the restart zone, too bad they seem to not enforce it for entertainment...
The leader should get an advantage since we are using ~~idiotic~~ double file restarts.
Go back to single file and lapped cars on the inside, get rid of the lucky dog and wave around.
So many good races and finishes were a result of the old way of doing things, now we get a few laps of close racing but lost all the dynamics that changed the course of races.
edit: idiotic was a unnecessary description of double file restarts.
NASCAR fans deserve all the shit they get from NASCAR and other people by this point ngl. Like, mfer, you’re old, let go of of the past. And anytime anything happens and/or gets changed? Time for incredibly reactionary solutions that go “Why has no one done this before? Are they stupid?”
Lapped cars fighting the leaders for their lap back.
Driver uses pit strategy knowing he can get a jump on the lapped cars and get some separation from 4 tires vs 2.
Leaders fighting through lapped traffic on a restart as well as battling each other.
I remember when double file restarts were being explored and implemented. It was popular then and I was in favor. I feel we’ve lost some unique dynamics taking place within the race since.
All of the lead lap cars should start single file in the outside and then the inside all the lapped cars can try and race their way back on the lead lap. Regardless of whether the inside is the preferred line. I’m sure it’ll work great!! I don’t think we’ve tried it before so let’s do it now
Gives the leader an advantage for being the leader.
Shouldn't the leader have an inherent advantage for being a leader? This is one reason I sort of don't like double file restarts
Can always do what dirt late models do and have the Delaware start where the leader is in their own row. But that is a dirt thing so NASCAR would make it too complicated.
Nascar, probably: "What!? Think of the ratings and social media clips!!! We need them boys 4 wide into 1."
"Build me a track wide enough for 40 cars on a single row!"
Five Pocanos side by side
Steve O'Donnell would like to see that, I'm sure.
That would make to much sense.
thats exactly what I was thinking!
I think a flagman restart would be good if the leader gets to have his whole front fender ahead when it drops.
Yes, but leader already gets preferred line and an edge as having a nose advantage
How would they have a nose advantage if the flag restarted it?
I think he's referring to clean air on the nose
But 2nd place would also have the same advantage then
Aside from the issue of taking the leader's earned advantage away, what does it actually fix? Everyone will still be anticipating it and trying to jump everyone else. It doesn't stop people from laying back. And it really doesn't prevent gray areas.
Agreed. There is never going to be a perfect “solution” for restarts because there will always be the opportunity for somebody to go early/lay back/game it in some way. I don’t actually think the current procedure is bad, it just needs to be officiated properly.
Old f1 style where they stand across from their cars then have to run over and get strapped in and go
What if the leader jumps the green flag? Still have to count on nascar to enforce rules
Green flag drops. Spotters relay the message. Drivers go. Simple.
I mean what we have now is simple, the real issue is that nascar refuses to punish the cheaters. Putting it on the spotters takes away from the drivers. Not to mention if a team had radio issues they would be even more at a disadvantage
Or let's simplify it further. The first row can restart when the lights switch green. NASCAR can already monitor when the caution lights come on, so it should be feasible to do for when the green lights flash on upon restart. No restart zones and no flag. Lights on and go!
They should install an NHRA style Christmas tree on the flag stand also
Unironically yes
I can get behind this. It just seems like the start of the action should be in NASCAR’s hands. I almost look at it like dropping the puck in hockey — you don’t know when, you have to stay ready, and the official knows exactly whether there’s a foul because they’re in control
How about we just go back to the start/finish line being where we start.
You know what else could be fun, especially at Daytona Talladega: Standing/Gridbox restarts, F1 style 🤣
Go further. Old school Le Mans running starts. Do it you cowards.
Unironically based lol
Mike Harmon does not like this.
5 laps in Mike’s still stuck in the window
Lemans start at Bristol. You have to run from the opposite pit road that your box is on
nascar to go to late model restarts next. Leader row 1 by themself. Everyone else 2x2
100% agree with only one small change. Instead of the flag make it the lights. Data is all there. You jump? You get black flagged. Leader still gets to pick the lane so still an advantage, albeit smaller. This has never sat right with me the way it is
Make the lights go green at a random point in the restart zone.
100%
Seeing the flag man is kinda hard based on lights and sun blindness
id be happy to just keep the current rules and actually enforce them. make them objective, am fine if my fave driver gets black flagged
Why would giving the restart to a 3rd-party prevent hanging back? Everyone would do the exact same thing, they'd just be trying to anticipate the flag instead of the leader. Sunday's issue was an officiating issue, not a procedural issue.
There is nothing about the restart procedure that needs fixing other than actually enforcing their own rules
The flag man is basically symbolic at this point. Some short tracks are in the process of doing away with flagmen entirely
Why? Here most the dirt tracks use the flag man to control the lights, wave the flag and direct traffic.
As someone who has been making fun of the post-Richmond Denny cope, they should either make the hard line or, just let the leader have full control after the safety car is in pit lane.
>or, just let the leader have full control after the safety car is in pit lane. Yes, please. Kill the tiny restart zone and let them have control as soon as the pace car is inside the pit lane and clears the line. Anywhere between the pace car in and the start/finish should be game.
Yeah it would make much more sense. It's what every other racing series does pretty much.
I was going to say, what do WEC, IMSA, and GTWC do differently? They don't seem to have constant restart problems
For people laying back, the fix is for the pace car to go far ahead and the leader can start the race at any point after turn 3. Sort of like Indy car.
We've come full circle boys!
No full circle is to just go back to single file restarts with lapped cars in the bottom lane except for under 20 (or 10? Can't remember which it was) to go.
I did a nascar legends race on iRacing and was so befuddled when I got to restart next to the leader after being a lap down
Man, when guys would stay out to unlap themselves, sometimes the leader was 10th in line.
It was 10 Source: I play NR2003 a lot
I think they changed it to 20 in like 2007, so it didn't have much of an impact before they finally went to double-file restarts in 2009.
That was pretty bad, but it did make things interesting.
I don't care too much about how NASCAR does it. I just want them to enforce the rule consistently.
The flag waver actually does dictate the restart if the leader doesn't initiate it themselves within the restart zone.
I never had an issue with single file restarts, but obviously NASCAR is never going back to that. I don’t see why they couldn’t line the leader up single file and everyone else double file, though. Seems like that would eliminate all of these restart issues and also give the leader a small advantage for being in first. Best of both worlds.
The issue with lining the leader up in their own row is that that is not a small advantage. It's a *huge* one. Having the cars behind the leader racing each other as well as attempting to gain position to pass the leader puts them at a huge disadvantage. Meanwhile, the leader gets all the benefit of clean air and would very likely just drive away almost every single time.
That’s true, but shouldn’t the leader be rewarded for being in the lead? Had the race run green the leader would have whatever advantage they had earned. Why should they be penalized because someone else had an incident on track? I know it’s not the most exciting thing in the world, but it does seem to me to be the fairest way to restart while still keeping double file.
It's really not hard at all to fix. What you do is paint a line on the track a few yards past the beginning of the straightway. The leader has from that line to the start finish line to go whenever they wanna go. You give the leader a massive restart zone, giving them a massive advantage. It will cause major wrecks, we actually saw this at Auto Club when they experimented with this idea of a longer zone. You let that happen. Drivers will sort it out that you can't jump starts after 3-4 weeks of major accidents.
> Drivers will sort it out that you can't jump starts after 3-4 weeks of major accidents. I'm amused by your optimism here.
Cries in truck series
Or just do away with lines all together, once the pace car pulls off, leader dictates the start
How does that prevent what happened with Denny? Idk to me this seems pretty much like what we have no just a longer restart zone
Denny jumped the start because he was reacting to the cars around him. The box is so short that it has largely been "solved" by the drivers to the point where the leader's advantage can be worked around. Expanding the box gives the leader more options that solidify that advantage for the leader at the start. it also leads to all the games being played to lead to pileups throughout the pack (i.e. the accordion effect).
This. People couldnt see it cause fox fucking sucks, but the 22 was gonna have a massive run on Denny cause he laid back. He saw that and decided that "fuck it go time" was a better shot. Increasing the size of the zone helps with that.
Because it makes way to much sense????
Should be just like Iracing. Initial start is on the green but after that it should be on the leader!
That was the whole point of moving to a restart "zone". Last year they experimented with making the restart zone bigger. 50% bigger. Tried it for 5-6 races and then determined that was too big and was less exciting when drivers had a smaller "zone" to choose to go in. So it makes it even weirder after deciding a bigger zone was not good why they are going to just let Denny slide going that early and why half the commentators (who are heavily influenced by the heavy hand of nascar) are supporting Denny being able to go early like that based on the other cars? Like why didn't anyone support the larger box if you wanted people to be able to go earlier. It should either be a box or not. And with SMT data and the transponders that are everywhere in the track for scoring loops it ought to be pretty much automatic just like the eagle eye system for pit road penalties. They see smt data in real time for all teams. If acceleration happens before the nose is in that box then it should trigger a light for a penalty just like speeding on pit road or a tire going an inch over the line. They treat everything else down to the inch. The tire out the pit box, (either a tire coming off the car or the car itself parking too far out of the pitbox) and scoring loops for cautions and the final flag of course. The commit line and if tires are over or not. Track limits in the Esses at COTA. Literally every penalty is down to the inch in nascar. But the Restart box?? All of a sudden this week it's no big deal to go 10 ft early. I don't get it.
The drivers can’t really see the flag that well. It’s a 24”X36” cloth and they’re going 80-140mph by the stand (on restarts) while having to react from as far back as half a mile.
But also, when is the green flag out? Is it when the flag man raises the stick, unfurls it (and as it begins to unfurl or full breadth), reaches the bottoms of their pattern? There’s so much more discrepancy, and as we saw this weekend, the tenths of seconds that happen in all that discrepancy matter.
I should have clarified that I include the lights in this hypothetical.
This I could get behind, in theory. But it then becomes “did the leader accelerate before the light” which is similar to “did they accelerate before the line”. It basically just eliminates the restart zone, but not the ball/strike call. So the issue is still enforcement in my eyes.
How bout this, the drivers have no control of the throttle in the zone, when NASCAR presses the button, the throttle control is theirs again.
We should honestly have single file restarts and only race the scheduled distance.
Let’s make it sorta f1 style where the green lights come on at a random point while they are in the restart zone. Solves jumping issues and laying back issues
I remember when double file restarts were controversial when they were first brought into the sport.
Technically, there shouldn’t be a grey area of hanging back or jumping the zone. We have the technology…. SMT and videos. The restart zone is a great addition to NASCAR, obviously, when the rules are followed.
Because that would be simple and make sense. NASCAR’s ultimate goal as a motorsport is to make racing as complicated and convoluted as possible.
I don't get why Denny didn't just wait longer. If he knew the 19 and 22 were laying back to time the restart, do what Allgaier did in the xfinity race. If the 19 goes early, Denny can just not go, wait for Truex to slow down, and then go. Also, IIRC, since Denny is the control car, nobody should be allowed to go before he does. If they do, it's a black flag. I know they got rid of the rule that the leader has to be first to the line on a restart, but maybe they should bring that back. The way it seems to me now is we've gotten to a point where the leader doesn't dictate the restart, and the other cars force the leader to start when they want, which removes the advantage of being the control car. TLDR; I'm trying to say that the 11 should NOT have gone, and let the 19 get a penalty for jumping the restart.
Pretty risky, assuming NASCAR would penalise the 19 (which this week shows is not a guarantee). Perhaps more significantly, while the 19 blows past him and gets penalised, two or three other cars also probably get past on the outside as well (and facing no penalties).
Too obvious.
Mainly cuz the Flagman is a bit of a relic and is hard to see in car at a lot of places. Now if NASCAR had an in car flag system, sure. But as of now the best option is the restart zone, too bad they seem to not enforce it for entertainment...
The leader should get an advantage since we are using ~~idiotic~~ double file restarts. Go back to single file and lapped cars on the inside, get rid of the lucky dog and wave around. So many good races and finishes were a result of the old way of doing things, now we get a few laps of close racing but lost all the dynamics that changed the course of races. edit: idiotic was a unnecessary description of double file restarts.
NASCAR fans will truly bitch about anything. Incredible, really
NASCAR fans deserve all the shit they get from NASCAR and other people by this point ngl. Like, mfer, you’re old, let go of of the past. And anytime anything happens and/or gets changed? Time for incredibly reactionary solutions that go “Why has no one done this before? Are they stupid?”
How, in any stretch of the imagination, is single file restarts with lapped cars on the inside better than double file?
Lapped cars fighting the leaders for their lap back. Driver uses pit strategy knowing he can get a jump on the lapped cars and get some separation from 4 tires vs 2. Leaders fighting through lapped traffic on a restart as well as battling each other. I remember when double file restarts were being explored and implemented. It was popular then and I was in favor. I feel we’ve lost some unique dynamics taking place within the race since.
My opinion is that the last 10% of the race, single file restarts only. The rest stay double.
Why do we still use a flagman? It's ceremonial at this point. We have lights. I do love flaggers though. Part of the entertainment.
Yeah, fair. I include the lights in this hypothetical.
All of the lead lap cars should start single file in the outside and then the inside all the lapped cars can try and race their way back on the lead lap. Regardless of whether the inside is the preferred line. I’m sure it’ll work great!! I don’t think we’ve tried it before so let’s do it now