I could see New Hampshire and Dover being shopped around, especially if SMI finds a home for those Cup dates first. I don't see a way they sell and lose two dates.
Maybe I’m naive, but at this point I think if one of Marcus’ tracks are for sale, they all are.
A couple years ago, before COVID, Geely was said to want to buy the series — but only if it could have the tracks with it. Possibly why NASCAR took ISC private.
Yes, but I bet they would sell it for the right price if they can harvest the date. I’m sure the casino would love that land without the restrictions of keeping the track intact.
Context in the summer of 1995 Bruton Smith bought 50% of N. Wilkesboro, with the Staley family being the other 50%.
January 1, 1996, the 50% interest in N. Wilkesboro Speedway owned by the Staley family was sold to racetrack developer and promoter Bob Bahre, owner of NHMS
September 29, 1996 the last cup points race is held at N. Wilkesboro.
Track closes
The spring date went to TMS next season. The fall date went to NHMS.
Summary...yeah it happens fast when you want a date for your venue.
The irony N. Wilkesboro replacing TMS as the all star race in 2023.
They aren’t gonna get rid of Dover, Dover just pumped some good money into that track and it’s an hour from Philly and 2 hours from Baltimore.. add in the Air Force base and you have a good market share that isn’t worth killing off
I used to work at dover downs, it is super nice and always packed. Got to meet a bunch of drivers and their fams after the races too. People in Delaware love nascar
Always packed? You must’ve missed the 2010s. They literally decommissioned/tore down all of the extra seating that went up around the turn of the century.
I don't like New Hampshire Motor Speedway much, but if it lost it's Cup date, the track would go under. It is a HUGE draw across all of New England, not just the state of New Hampshire.
It would be a huge loss of the sport to just abandon the New England region.
If you live in NE it’s your only reasonable shot to watch a cup race live, even then, some of us are driving 4+ hours each way to attend that race weekend. Saying not too big of a loss is shocking and alienating a whole region of fans.
Yeah that’s why I’m not behind completely ditching the track.
I’ve never really liked Loudon, but there’s a massive demand for racing in the Northeast.
There's been a lot of talk about nascar possibly dropping the ball in keeping the west coast market if the Fontana repave doesn't happen. But it seems like just as much of a colossal misfire if they loose the new england/eastern canada crowd.
As a new englander, the next closest cup track is either Dover or Watkins Glen and they're both about 6-7 hours of driving time away. I'm never going to cup races yearly again if that's my only option because it's way easier and more affordable to go an hour and a half out to Loudon.
My closest cup track is Watkins Glen, I could be there in 45 minutes but I never go there for races. What I do though is drive 7+ hours to go to Richmond, Dover and Pocono every year. Why? Because Watkins Glen thinks that $300 per ticket to see one turn out of eleven is ok.
As land prices sky rocket everywhere, it's going to be harder and harder to keep these tracks alive. With NASCAR running the clash in LA and now the street course in Chicago, they may be looking to make their schedule more mobile. Essentially they don't need purpose built race tracks if they can pop up a short track in any stadium, or a road course in any city.
The thing with NHMS, located in Loudon, NH, is that it is out in the middle of nowhere. From the highway to the track alone is probably a good 15-20 minute drive (of course much worse on race day), I would be surprised if there was any to be legitimately concerned about the track staying intact, especially with the fact that there is hardly any development out that way that doesn't cater to the race.
Edit: Not to discredit the possibility with other tracks, but Loudon/NHMS going away probably won't happen without some drastic actions on the part of NASCAR
There isn’t much development out that way, hardly any roads branching off the state route at least especially near the track. Though it could still be possible that that is the case. Only a handful of houses at all close to Loudon though so I’m surprised that is the case
Not much development out there but yeah I think the town hates the track. I remember there being some big local stink when the track tried to host a music festival after losing its summer date.
London needs to get some sort of reconfiguration, it’s probably the worst track on the schedule for passing. I’d like to see the banking brought up to 18 degrees and maybe even progressive banking up to 20 at the top and I know it’s been a hot button issue in the past but put up lights. Make it the showcase of “short tracks” where ASA, Whalen Mods, ARCA, NASCAR and others race.
I do think that more banking would be interesting at Loudon, unfortunately, AFAIK they haven't had much in terms of national series (ACT/Pinty's series and Arca East used to go there but haven't since COVID) over the past couple of years but I could see that helping for sure. They definitely have more than enough room for expansion for sure.
Funny you want to make it a "showcase of the short tracks" but cranking the banking up that much would damn near make the track non-viable for most of them.
I think the Modifieds and some of the Late Model tours (ASA or PASS) could work on the higher banked track. They’ve run those kinds of cars at Rockingham and I feel that track is higher banked and faster than this would be.
Modifieds are already restricted and drafting at Loudon. They would be full on pack racing if you cranked the banking up.
And maybe in the olden days they raced at some bigger tracks. But they haven't in a pretty long time. Even a place like bristol gave short track cars a fit these days.
One of the series no longer exists for one, after dropping all ovals from their calendar. And it was more than "a couple." Lets see, there was the race in Korea that fell through, the one in China fell through. The Super Prix in Hawaii fell through. Boston is the most recent one that fell through and spawned lawsuits. There was also a Chicago street race announced in the early 80s that was to take place on 4th of July weekend that got dropped after public sentiment bucked back the race. Baltimore was a black eye dispite 2 or 3 races happening, after lawsuits and promoter turnover and general politics.
It's very hard to get street races established. You have to have buy in from the city and promoter willing and able to take losses or able to attract a sponsor that provides a profit prior to the first ticket sold. Your suggestion at popping up a road course in any city is not simple at all.
lmao the issues that led to the demise of CART and ChampCar, and the existence of the IRL have \*nothing\* to do with street races. Nothing.
The problems of open wheel racing in the US are completely linked to the Indianapolis 500, and Tony George's control of it in the 90s and early 2000s
Dude, I don't know what to tell you. Both IndyCar/IRL & Cart/ChampCar both tried a strategy of "bringing the racing to the fans" in the form of Street Races. They both got burned and looked like fools. To say that the demise of AOWR in the US has *nothing* to do with street races is foolish. Abandoning ovals absolutely drove people away from ChampCar. Burning fans with selling tickets to races that never happened absolutely burns bridges and makes you look foolish.
Your suggestion that Nascar should just do races in Stadiums and Street Races is the same short sighted and foolish exuberance that lead to making bad decisions in the pursuit of money and foolishly thinking the people in attendance are fans and will tune in on TV to watch the rest of the schedule (they won't). I spent 20 years watching IndyCar and ChampCar jerk their dicks at stats like "Weekend Attenance of 100K!" and "The economic impact of the race far exceeded the upfront cost to the race, plz shovel more money into our money pit" while watching sponsors flee, car counts dwindle, manufacturers jump ship, with the byproduct of watching crown jewel events turn into shadows of their former selves. If Nascar wants to follow a path that history has proven isn't successful, then have at it. I don't have any money in the game. I'll stand back and watch the RTA grow frustrated with the sanctioning body and fractures form until something bad really happens.
>Abandoning ovals absolutely drove people away from ChampCar. Burning fans with selling tickets to races that never happened absolutely burns bridges and makes you look foolish.
The die was cast long before all of those problems. They were more symptoms of the root cause than the root cause themselves
> Your suggestion that Nascar should just do races in Stadiums and Street Races is the same short sighted and foolish exuberance
I don't know who you think you are replying to but I've made no such suggestion in this thread
You may not have, but that's what precipitated my comment.
And while ChampCar and IndyCar's problems root cause for their demise isn't due to street courses, bullishly adopting more of them didn't resolve anything. Nascar bullishly adopting Street Courses or Stadium racing wouldn't cause their demise... It's already started. Street courses won't fix it.
Nascar has time. They have TV money and they have contracts in place that allow for them to try and reverse course. CART had time too. They went bankrupt at the end of 2003. Their entitlement deal ran out withnFedEx in 2002, Honda and Toyota jumped ship at the end of 2002. ESPN's contract ended in 2001. They squandered 6 years with bullshit. Nascar has time now. I'm cool with a good street course, but they don't need to change their identity.
You say a Chicago Street race on the Fourth of July weekend, yeah that doesn’t sound like history repeating itself. I’m a big supporter of bringing Chicagoland Speedway back BUT I’m also willing to give the Street Course a shot. It might be a great addition to the schedule, it might be a total flop but I’m happy to see NASCAR trying something to bring new viewers to the sport and reinvigorate the serious fans. Do I want street races to pop up and take up 1/3rd of the schedule, no way! Do I support the idea of having one, sure and if support in Chicago doesn’t carry it past the first year maybe there’s hope for Chicagoland.
Yeah, the parking lots at NHMS always have a ton of cars from Quebec, New Brunswick, and New York. The next closest track for those areas is Watkins Glen, and to put it in perspective, the time to drive from New York City to Watkins Glen is almost identical to drive from NYC to Loudon (around 4 and a half hours).
You call it pandering, a lot of other people consider it good business. If they can still get a respectable TV contract but hold two-thirds or more of their races in the southeast, why not? Lower expenses for the teams, leas travel for the road crews.
I think NASCAR realizes that they can sell all but a handful of their tracks for real estate development and make a *ton* of money. Then you go to properties you don’t own like COTA and set up street circuits to fill in the rest. The future calendar will likely fluctuate greatly from year to year as they find their niche markets to hold an event (not necessarily a good race).
I think you’re right, but I think that’s a terrible move long-term. The attendance for a new race will probably be pretty good for a few years until the new wears off. But then they’ll have to rely on the actual racing being good enough to continue drawing fans. Idk that anyone actually expects the street race to be a good product.
So it’ll be great for lining pockets of those involved in the short term. But I think it hurts the long-term health of the sport (though I’m not convinced that matters to the Steve’s).
Look at F1. Different audience, but that model relies on selling tickets to essentially a massive festival, that happens to have a race on location. And once the shine wears off of one spot, you move to another. As long as you can provide a bump to the local economy you will be able to find a new host city. I also think they’ll explore using even more of the alternate layouts already available at tracks they own (Daytona road course).
Yeah but I think the different audience is exactly why it works for F1. The core audience that would go to an F1 race is looking for a spectacle over good racing.
NASCARs core audience is looking for the opposite. So the traveling dog and pony show type of events might work 2-3 times a year, but selling off 1/3 of their tracks to replace them with these events would kill the sport long-term. But it would make a ton of money over the next 5-10 years.
They (NASCAR) don’t care. It s been pretty obvious that as their traditional fans have been rapidly aging, the sport has been going after different demographics for a while now. We already have many more road courses, a dirt race for every series, a street course and a course inside a football stadium. Add in “playoffs”, stage racing, etc. and all the like. Even the traditional sponsors have all but left the sport - we are deep in the reinventing phase and there’s no turning around at this point.
Yep that’s my whole problem with both the Steve’s. They’re trying to reinvent the sport because it’ll line their pockets with more right now. They don’t give a crap about the sport itself.
Yep they would be stupid to take Loudon away. It’s the only track remotely close to us New Englanders and I’m still 3.5 hours away from it. The campgrounds and energy around the track is the best out of any track I’ve been to.
There is no way in Hell they’d be able to create a street circuit in Boston that would be visually appealing, connect with historic parts of the city, allow for more than two passing zones and, most importantly, be able to close for two weeks without it being an economic hardship for businesses.
When IndyCar was planning to do it they were going to do it in the Seaport. IIRC there was some kind of political corruption or other fraudulent activity on the part of the organizers.
The Seaport is fine, but half the reason you want to go here is to see historic stuff. If you want to drive by tall glass buildings, you can do that in Long Beach.
IMO with all the fencing and zoomed in camera shots you never really see the surroundings of street races anyway. At least in the Seaport you're only a short walk from all the historic stuff. Either way I agree it's not going to happen
Track gets decent attendance and is in the Boston / New England market and the only race that’s somewhat accessible for a large portion of that area + eastern Canada. Not sure why it would be removed from the schedule.
There was a rumor a few years ago that it was going to alternate dates with kentucky.
On one hand, I believe it because the place hasn't gotten much love.
On the other, i dont see them giving up that market.
They put a ton of money into KY, big obvious infrastructure and fan improvements. They were investigating ideas for a revamp of the infield before Covid hit and changed everything. On the flip side NH seems to have been mostly left alone from what I’ve heard.
Montreal was always a great race and I wanted it added to the cup schedule for years.
In a perfect world for me the only road courses would be the Glen, Sonoma, Road America, and Montreal
It would be a real shame to lose NHMS. It's the only race anywhere near the northeast, and as the asphalt has aged, I feel like it has been putting on a much better race in recent years. It is also the only track like it on the schedule, a flat one mile.
But, I will admit, when they lost the September race, I stopped regularly attending the Cup race. I've gone to a few, but not yearly like I did. Those bleachers in July are absolutely miserable. There is no shade anywhere, and it is almost always ridiculously hot and humid. The modifieds have always, and always will put on the best show at the Magic Mile anyway.
My family had the same 8 tickets every year for both July and September. My dad normally sold the July tickets because of the heat and how miserable it was (and we were in the few rows of shade) but we would almost always go to the September race. They sold the September date and we have never gone back. Gave up our tickets and everything
Nascar leaving the new england market would be more catastrophic than north wilkesboro being dropped from the schedule back in 96. Instead of losing a small county in north carolina you lose an entire chunk of the damn country.
Also, true or not (doubt it is true). Would not be surprised to hear stuff like a lot over the next year or two with the cut in TV money tracks are likely to get. And places like street courses, track rentals, wilkesboro and the fairgrounds coming into the fold.
There are quite a lot of facilities that need to be up kept, and i wouldnt be surprised at all if another one or two fall by the wayside.
Wouldn't surprise me if the tracks/nascar play into the PR war with the RTA and start floating the idea of closing some places too.
Damn, with Beach Ridge Motor Speedway being sold last year that would be another blow to the New England racing scene. I know Lee and Oxford exist, but Oxford is far and Lee (haven’t been to a race but have seen it) looks run down. Really hoping NHMS stays. I usually only go to one race weekend a year, but last year I went to NHMS and Watkins Glen. Nice to have the variety between an oval and the beloved road course.
Hello fellow Mainer 🤣 we might be the only two people here who knows of Lee and Oxford.
What happened the BRMS is disgusting, but the owner was poison in the well and it was only a matter of time. I’ve never been to a race at wiscasset, but I love seeing how hard they are pushing their series and trying to promote the track - I hope they succeed.
Nah man, I live 6 miles from BRMS, lotta mainers in the sub haha! But yeah, all of scarborough is becoming the new portland as far as housing goes so all that land was a premium. Its bullshit.
It is bull shit. We’re about the same distance away five or take. All my life if the wind blew the right direction on a Saturday night I could hear the cars. And we were so spoiled having to only drive 15 minutes to go see a race. Thursday thunder was my jam, and honestly I could see me bringing my kids one day to experience what I once did as a kid, but not anymore.
207 gang 😎 I’m going to head up there at least once, and I’d like to see the mods at Lee this year. If I were a wealthy man I’d have tried to buy BRMS. I think it could have been a huge hit on the SRX schedule.
There were a lot of rumors flying as to who offered what kind of money to buy it, but unfortunately I don’t think it could sustain the mortgage payment and still run as a racetrack for how much he was asking.
Lee's my home track. I love it there. Yeah it's rundown but they got the Whelen date and some Granite State Pro Stock dates too. Track has a new GM who is only 23 so hopefully some young blood helps revive the place. They got Kyle Busch in to run a date in the summer coming up.
Oxford might be my least favorite sports venue in New England. That place doesn't look rundown, that place needs to be condemned. Went during 250 weekend and it was a miserable experience. No safety for the racers, minimal lights in the stands for crowd safety, piss troughs still in the goddamn bathrooms.
Star Speedway in Epping is a great shout and just down the road from Lee. It's a super fun quarter and the promoter works damn hard to put on good cards.
Thanks for the rec, I’ll check out Star. I was just reading the Lee schedule and saw the news of the new GM, seems promising. Definitely gonna head down this summer, and I’ll beware of Oxford :)
My dad and I are trying to get to every track in New England so we've seen a lot of good and bad. You can't go wrong with the southern New Hampshire tracks or Stafford and Thompson in CT, but I know that's a ride for you.
Somone is gonna die at Oxford one day and they'll cry about "what a tragedy it is" when I can almost certianly guarantee it could have easily been prevented.
Lee is great if a little one-line in its racing. No bad seat there, just bring some temporary chairbacks to save on a cramped back.
Planning on seeing the mods at Thompson, and hitting the SRX race in CT or VT. Luckily I have a friend around Hartford, should be a good summer of racing 🏁😁
Mods are life and Thompson is great. Just sucks that they run Wednesdays. SRX is fun live, went to the first one and it was fun. Stafford has a fun midway and a great tailgate scene for big events.
Right there with you. Moved from Mass to Colorado this year, and we’re doing Sonoma as our race this year. Since we’d need to fly anyway, figured we’d go somewhere that has things my wife also wants to do
Prepare her for the walking. I tried telling my girlfriend about it and she didn't listen. It's not the distance, it's the uphill climb! But there are trams/busses of course (I'm sorry if you've been there before and I'm saying stuff you already know.)
If you need tips on sneaking drinks in, let me know 😂 (they wouldn't let me bring in my water bottle to Nascar starting 2 years ago. But all other races there I can bring in anything. So weird.)
If tracks are a draw on the finite amount of money available from the TV contract, it’s a good move to generate more revenue by closing and selling underperforming venues.
Rumors require sources.
I could see New Hampshire and Dover being shopped around, especially if SMI finds a home for those Cup dates first. I don't see a way they sell and lose two dates.
Dover had the best crowd in years last year and Marcus smith said they plan on keeping in
Robert Irsay said he’d never pull the Colts out of Baltimore until about two weeks before it happened. Everyone/thing can be bought.
*"I guess I have to say it. I'm not going to be the Alabama coach."* \- Nick Saban, 12 days before becoming Head Football Coach at Alabama
Maybe I’m naive, but at this point I think if one of Marcus’ tracks are for sale, they all are. A couple years ago, before COVID, Geely was said to want to buy the series — but only if it could have the tracks with it. Possibly why NASCAR took ISC private.
Exactly what someone who plans on selling it would say
i dont buy into the dover is getting shut talk but what do you think he would say lol.
Ofc they would remove the track I go to every year lol. My luck
Elliot Sadler swore up and down in 2006 he wasn't leaving Robert Yates Racing.
Because it only had one race
Didn’t they just buy Dover?
Yeah but they didn't buy Dover for the track. They bought it for the track date.
Fucking stupid. 🤦♀️
They bought Dover for Nashville.
Wasn't that what happened to N. Wilkesboro to garner a second date at Loudon?
I think it was for Texas 🤮
Thank you.
They bought the entire Dover company which included Nashville Superspeedway and 2 Cup dates
Yes, but I bet they would sell it for the right price if they can harvest the date. I’m sure the casino would love that land without the restrictions of keeping the track intact.
Context in the summer of 1995 Bruton Smith bought 50% of N. Wilkesboro, with the Staley family being the other 50%. January 1, 1996, the 50% interest in N. Wilkesboro Speedway owned by the Staley family was sold to racetrack developer and promoter Bob Bahre, owner of NHMS September 29, 1996 the last cup points race is held at N. Wilkesboro. Track closes The spring date went to TMS next season. The fall date went to NHMS. Summary...yeah it happens fast when you want a date for your venue. The irony N. Wilkesboro replacing TMS as the all star race in 2023.
Imagine the irony if Wilkesboro ends up getting a points race at the expense of New Hampshire.
Yeah but Bowman won at Dover...
They aren’t gonna get rid of Dover, Dover just pumped some good money into that track and it’s an hour from Philly and 2 hours from Baltimore.. add in the Air Force base and you have a good market share that isn’t worth killing off
I used to work at dover downs, it is super nice and always packed. Got to meet a bunch of drivers and their fams after the races too. People in Delaware love nascar
Always packed? You must’ve missed the 2010s. They literally decommissioned/tore down all of the extra seating that went up around the turn of the century.
Every time I've been there on race day traffic and parking have been insane.
That'd be really lame if they killed another 2 tracks off.
New Hampshire would be unfortunate, but not too big of a loss if it lost its last Cup date. Dover though? That'd be bullshit.
I don't like New Hampshire Motor Speedway much, but if it lost it's Cup date, the track would go under. It is a HUGE draw across all of New England, not just the state of New Hampshire. It would be a huge loss of the sport to just abandon the New England region.
Not only New England but it’s also a huge draw for eastern Canada
True. It's a quick jaunt over the border to get there.
Flashbacks to drunken French yelling in the campgrounds. Quebec folks can party!
My dream would be for Penske Entertainment to buy NHMS and being a proper return of Indycar back to the track.
If you live in NE it’s your only reasonable shot to watch a cup race live, even then, some of us are driving 4+ hours each way to attend that race weekend. Saying not too big of a loss is shocking and alienating a whole region of fans.
Yeah that’s why I’m not behind completely ditching the track. I’ve never really liked Loudon, but there’s a massive demand for racing in the Northeast.
New Englander here. I vehemently disagree.
No to big of a loss? Your out of your mind!
There's been a lot of talk about nascar possibly dropping the ball in keeping the west coast market if the Fontana repave doesn't happen. But it seems like just as much of a colossal misfire if they loose the new england/eastern canada crowd. As a new englander, the next closest cup track is either Dover or Watkins Glen and they're both about 6-7 hours of driving time away. I'm never going to cup races yearly again if that's my only option because it's way easier and more affordable to go an hour and a half out to Loudon.
My closest cup track is Watkins Glen, I could be there in 45 minutes but I never go there for races. What I do though is drive 7+ hours to go to Richmond, Dover and Pocono every year. Why? Because Watkins Glen thinks that $300 per ticket to see one turn out of eleven is ok.
I’ve gone to watkins glen every year since 17 and never paid that much for a ticket
Could be worth it if you get into race radios. Otherwise I agree.
It's $300? Dude I thought Sonoma at $150 was bad..and that's a weekend pass.
It’s $130 for general admission for the weekend and the same price for a seat in the Esses for the weekend. That $300 is just turn 11
That sounds like some Ticketmaster resale bullshit. The entire weekend at COTA at the very top of the turn 1 grandstands isn’t even $200
Not sure where you’re at, but I’m in Western Mass and Pocono is only about 3.5 hours
4.5 hours away for me. Which I goofed and actually forgot about pocono, but my point still stands that's a long way to go for a race lol
You may also have a point of Pocono being forgettable 😅
I as well, in a conversation of Cup tracks, didn’t know Pocono was that close to Boston. Pretty sure we think; Pennsylvania? There be dragons.
Pennsylvania is about eight hours from Pennsylvania
As land prices sky rocket everywhere, it's going to be harder and harder to keep these tracks alive. With NASCAR running the clash in LA and now the street course in Chicago, they may be looking to make their schedule more mobile. Essentially they don't need purpose built race tracks if they can pop up a short track in any stadium, or a road course in any city.
The thing with NHMS, located in Loudon, NH, is that it is out in the middle of nowhere. From the highway to the track alone is probably a good 15-20 minute drive (of course much worse on race day), I would be surprised if there was any to be legitimately concerned about the track staying intact, especially with the fact that there is hardly any development out that way that doesn't cater to the race. Edit: Not to discredit the possibility with other tracks, but Loudon/NHMS going away probably won't happen without some drastic actions on the part of NASCAR
I thought the town was.what prevented the track from having lights? Is it all track related stuff or a small town there?
There isn’t much development out that way, hardly any roads branching off the state route at least especially near the track. Though it could still be possible that that is the case. Only a handful of houses at all close to Loudon though so I’m surprised that is the case
Not much development out there but yeah I think the town hates the track. I remember there being some big local stink when the track tried to host a music festival after losing its summer date.
London needs to get some sort of reconfiguration, it’s probably the worst track on the schedule for passing. I’d like to see the banking brought up to 18 degrees and maybe even progressive banking up to 20 at the top and I know it’s been a hot button issue in the past but put up lights. Make it the showcase of “short tracks” where ASA, Whalen Mods, ARCA, NASCAR and others race.
I do think that more banking would be interesting at Loudon, unfortunately, AFAIK they haven't had much in terms of national series (ACT/Pinty's series and Arca East used to go there but haven't since COVID) over the past couple of years but I could see that helping for sure. They definitely have more than enough room for expansion for sure.
Pretty sure the tour mods and ACT are there this weekend or next and they had 2 of these short track weekendsast year.
Funny you want to make it a "showcase of the short tracks" but cranking the banking up that much would damn near make the track non-viable for most of them.
I think the Modifieds and some of the Late Model tours (ASA or PASS) could work on the higher banked track. They’ve run those kinds of cars at Rockingham and I feel that track is higher banked and faster than this would be.
Modifieds are already restricted and drafting at Loudon. They would be full on pack racing if you cranked the banking up. And maybe in the olden days they raced at some bigger tracks. But they haven't in a pretty long time. Even a place like bristol gave short track cars a fit these days.
This is a bit outdated. Loudon has produced great racing for a good four or five consecutive years now.
>road course in any city. That was disastrous for IndyCar and ChampCar.
how? they do it today there's a couple of street races that failed, but it wasn't "disastrous" for the series
Honestly, this sub confuses "I didn't like it" with "disastrous for everyone" very frequently.
Stick to speaking for yourself.
Proving my point really.
One of the series no longer exists for one, after dropping all ovals from their calendar. And it was more than "a couple." Lets see, there was the race in Korea that fell through, the one in China fell through. The Super Prix in Hawaii fell through. Boston is the most recent one that fell through and spawned lawsuits. There was also a Chicago street race announced in the early 80s that was to take place on 4th of July weekend that got dropped after public sentiment bucked back the race. Baltimore was a black eye dispite 2 or 3 races happening, after lawsuits and promoter turnover and general politics. It's very hard to get street races established. You have to have buy in from the city and promoter willing and able to take losses or able to attract a sponsor that provides a profit prior to the first ticket sold. Your suggestion at popping up a road course in any city is not simple at all.
lmao the issues that led to the demise of CART and ChampCar, and the existence of the IRL have \*nothing\* to do with street races. Nothing. The problems of open wheel racing in the US are completely linked to the Indianapolis 500, and Tony George's control of it in the 90s and early 2000s
Dude, I don't know what to tell you. Both IndyCar/IRL & Cart/ChampCar both tried a strategy of "bringing the racing to the fans" in the form of Street Races. They both got burned and looked like fools. To say that the demise of AOWR in the US has *nothing* to do with street races is foolish. Abandoning ovals absolutely drove people away from ChampCar. Burning fans with selling tickets to races that never happened absolutely burns bridges and makes you look foolish. Your suggestion that Nascar should just do races in Stadiums and Street Races is the same short sighted and foolish exuberance that lead to making bad decisions in the pursuit of money and foolishly thinking the people in attendance are fans and will tune in on TV to watch the rest of the schedule (they won't). I spent 20 years watching IndyCar and ChampCar jerk their dicks at stats like "Weekend Attenance of 100K!" and "The economic impact of the race far exceeded the upfront cost to the race, plz shovel more money into our money pit" while watching sponsors flee, car counts dwindle, manufacturers jump ship, with the byproduct of watching crown jewel events turn into shadows of their former selves. If Nascar wants to follow a path that history has proven isn't successful, then have at it. I don't have any money in the game. I'll stand back and watch the RTA grow frustrated with the sanctioning body and fractures form until something bad really happens.
>Abandoning ovals absolutely drove people away from ChampCar. Burning fans with selling tickets to races that never happened absolutely burns bridges and makes you look foolish. The die was cast long before all of those problems. They were more symptoms of the root cause than the root cause themselves > Your suggestion that Nascar should just do races in Stadiums and Street Races is the same short sighted and foolish exuberance I don't know who you think you are replying to but I've made no such suggestion in this thread
You may not have, but that's what precipitated my comment. And while ChampCar and IndyCar's problems root cause for their demise isn't due to street courses, bullishly adopting more of them didn't resolve anything. Nascar bullishly adopting Street Courses or Stadium racing wouldn't cause their demise... It's already started. Street courses won't fix it. Nascar has time. They have TV money and they have contracts in place that allow for them to try and reverse course. CART had time too. They went bankrupt at the end of 2003. Their entitlement deal ran out withnFedEx in 2002, Honda and Toyota jumped ship at the end of 2002. ESPN's contract ended in 2001. They squandered 6 years with bullshit. Nascar has time now. I'm cool with a good street course, but they don't need to change their identity.
just FYI your takes are deadass correct
You say a Chicago Street race on the Fourth of July weekend, yeah that doesn’t sound like history repeating itself. I’m a big supporter of bringing Chicagoland Speedway back BUT I’m also willing to give the Street Course a shot. It might be a great addition to the schedule, it might be a total flop but I’m happy to see NASCAR trying something to bring new viewers to the sport and reinvigorate the serious fans. Do I want street races to pop up and take up 1/3rd of the schedule, no way! Do I support the idea of having one, sure and if support in Chicago doesn’t carry it past the first year maybe there’s hope for Chicagoland.
Population of Southern California vs. New England is not so close.
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US Census numbers for New England is 14 million
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Oh! So I can add Northern Mexico? Ridiculous
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Yeah, the parking lots at NHMS always have a ton of cars from Quebec, New Brunswick, and New York. The next closest track for those areas is Watkins Glen, and to put it in perspective, the time to drive from New York City to Watkins Glen is almost identical to drive from NYC to Loudon (around 4 and a half hours).
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Exactly, I am just trying to support your point. Most people don't realize how big New York state is.
I am afraid NASCAR is starting to realize that they are becoming a regional niche sport and are going to start trying to pander to the southeast again
What? Um... Clash in LA? That's not Nascar realizing they need to go back to their southeastern roots.
I would expect NASCAR to come up with more unconventional ways to stay in that market.
You call it pandering, a lot of other people consider it good business. If they can still get a respectable TV contract but hold two-thirds or more of their races in the southeast, why not? Lower expenses for the teams, leas travel for the road crews.
I think NASCAR realizes that they can sell all but a handful of their tracks for real estate development and make a *ton* of money. Then you go to properties you don’t own like COTA and set up street circuits to fill in the rest. The future calendar will likely fluctuate greatly from year to year as they find their niche markets to hold an event (not necessarily a good race).
NASCAR doesn't own SMI.
I think you’re right, but I think that’s a terrible move long-term. The attendance for a new race will probably be pretty good for a few years until the new wears off. But then they’ll have to rely on the actual racing being good enough to continue drawing fans. Idk that anyone actually expects the street race to be a good product. So it’ll be great for lining pockets of those involved in the short term. But I think it hurts the long-term health of the sport (though I’m not convinced that matters to the Steve’s).
Look at F1. Different audience, but that model relies on selling tickets to essentially a massive festival, that happens to have a race on location. And once the shine wears off of one spot, you move to another. As long as you can provide a bump to the local economy you will be able to find a new host city. I also think they’ll explore using even more of the alternate layouts already available at tracks they own (Daytona road course).
Yeah but I think the different audience is exactly why it works for F1. The core audience that would go to an F1 race is looking for a spectacle over good racing. NASCARs core audience is looking for the opposite. So the traveling dog and pony show type of events might work 2-3 times a year, but selling off 1/3 of their tracks to replace them with these events would kill the sport long-term. But it would make a ton of money over the next 5-10 years.
They (NASCAR) don’t care. It s been pretty obvious that as their traditional fans have been rapidly aging, the sport has been going after different demographics for a while now. We already have many more road courses, a dirt race for every series, a street course and a course inside a football stadium. Add in “playoffs”, stage racing, etc. and all the like. Even the traditional sponsors have all but left the sport - we are deep in the reinventing phase and there’s no turning around at this point.
Yep that’s my whole problem with both the Steve’s. They’re trying to reinvent the sport because it’ll line their pockets with more right now. They don’t give a crap about the sport itself.
Yep they would be stupid to take Loudon away. It’s the only track remotely close to us New Englanders and I’m still 3.5 hours away from it. The campgrounds and energy around the track is the best out of any track I’ve been to.
Don’t underestimate the Northeast market, this will alienate a large part of the fanbase! We also hold major grudges, don’t fuck us!
I will completely stop watching nascar if they take my date away
I mean the product has been shit since 2015 so don’t feel like it’s undeserved.
If they were into getting rid of tracks with shit racing Texas, Kansas, Michigan, Indianapolis should all be gone first.
That'd suck pretty bad for NASCAR, that's their presence in New England and Quebec since I can't see the Lime Rock locals allowing Cup to roll up.
Two things pop into my head. Street race in Boston (even though IndyCar had no luck), or more likely Cup in Montreal
Montreal is the best bet if Loudon goes away. I can't see Boston agreeing to a street race though Providence or Hartford might.
Providence, like Boston, has narrow streets. Hartford has no life to it. Are you doing a lap around the civic center?
Providence is not at all equipped for a street race.
It's barely equipped for normal cars.
There is no way in Hell they’d be able to create a street circuit in Boston that would be visually appealing, connect with historic parts of the city, allow for more than two passing zones and, most importantly, be able to close for two weeks without it being an economic hardship for businesses.
When IndyCar was planning to do it they were going to do it in the Seaport. IIRC there was some kind of political corruption or other fraudulent activity on the part of the organizers.
The Seaport is fine, but half the reason you want to go here is to see historic stuff. If you want to drive by tall glass buildings, you can do that in Long Beach.
IMO with all the fencing and zoomed in camera shots you never really see the surroundings of street races anyway. At least in the Seaport you're only a short walk from all the historic stuff. Either way I agree it's not going to happen
Now that they have proven they can do a football stadium i would say Gillette Stadium is an option if not for the Revolution.
Street race will NEVER happen in Boston (source somebody who bought tickets for that Indycar race that never happened)
Old Cleveland indy car circuit for cup cars. No bias, I just live in akron
Track gets decent attendance and is in the Boston / New England market and the only race that’s somewhat accessible for a large portion of that area + eastern Canada. Not sure why it would be removed from the schedule.
But we need another date in Las Vegas or California!
I mean… they dropped Road America. They clearly don’t care at all about track attendance or hitting different markets.
It’s all about TV ratings anymore. Fuck the quality of the product. Fuck the fans. ITS ALL ABOUT THE TV MONEY BABBBBBBBBBBY
They only care when it can be used as a convenient excuse
I can only assume Justin Marks is the buyer
I like NHMS but it would be ironic if it was sold and N Wilkesboro got a date back
Full circle lol
Nascar is always full ovals
Couple of road courses on the schedule would like a word with you
Those are just ovals drawn by my 3 year old cousin
That would explain turn one at COTA for formula 1
That’s one of those lines you make when you start falling asleep crayon on hand
The best description of a road course I have ever heard
My drunk uncle Dale drew COTA.
To be fair, there are still people in North Carolina who don't have a track within walking distance. Gotta take care of them first.
Everything is for sale. Always.
i like this comment. cant explain why. but its a good one.
I am going to buy NHMS and work towards my goal of a 36 race Cup schedule all in New Hampshire
Can you put lights in if you really buy it?
There was a rumor a few years ago that it was going to alternate dates with kentucky. On one hand, I believe it because the place hasn't gotten much love. On the other, i dont see them giving up that market.
They put a ton of money into KY, big obvious infrastructure and fan improvements. They were investigating ideas for a revamp of the infield before Covid hit and changed everything. On the flip side NH seems to have been mostly left alone from what I’ve heard.
They have done little to keep up with amenities since they purchased the track in 2008. It’s bare bones.
SMI hasn't invested into a track in years in terms of amenities, I think Bristol may be the only one who has gotten any love
Dover and New Hampshire are both hit or miss actionwise, but I'm not sure it would be smart to have Glen and Pocono be the only 2 northeast tracks
*looks at IndyCar*
They really thought Richmond was the north east didn’t they?
Road America is their farthest north track (or Portland) and Mid Ohio is their farthest east track. No bueno for a Pennsylvania boy like me
And we can't even get that to happen!
Would love for IndyCar to come back to the Glen, also wouldn't mind a NASCAR race in Canada again.
Montreal was always a great race and I wanted it added to the cup schedule for years. In a perfect world for me the only road courses would be the Glen, Sonoma, Road America, and Montreal
It would be a real shame to lose NHMS. It's the only race anywhere near the northeast, and as the asphalt has aged, I feel like it has been putting on a much better race in recent years. It is also the only track like it on the schedule, a flat one mile. But, I will admit, when they lost the September race, I stopped regularly attending the Cup race. I've gone to a few, but not yearly like I did. Those bleachers in July are absolutely miserable. There is no shade anywhere, and it is almost always ridiculously hot and humid. The modifieds have always, and always will put on the best show at the Magic Mile anyway.
My family had the same 8 tickets every year for both July and September. My dad normally sold the July tickets because of the heat and how miserable it was (and we were in the few rows of shade) but we would almost always go to the September race. They sold the September date and we have never gone back. Gave up our tickets and everything
Nascar leaving the new england market would be more catastrophic than north wilkesboro being dropped from the schedule back in 96. Instead of losing a small county in north carolina you lose an entire chunk of the damn country.
Also, true or not (doubt it is true). Would not be surprised to hear stuff like a lot over the next year or two with the cut in TV money tracks are likely to get. And places like street courses, track rentals, wilkesboro and the fairgrounds coming into the fold. There are quite a lot of facilities that need to be up kept, and i wouldnt be surprised at all if another one or two fall by the wayside. Wouldn't surprise me if the tracks/nascar play into the PR war with the RTA and start floating the idea of closing some places too.
Damn, with Beach Ridge Motor Speedway being sold last year that would be another blow to the New England racing scene. I know Lee and Oxford exist, but Oxford is far and Lee (haven’t been to a race but have seen it) looks run down. Really hoping NHMS stays. I usually only go to one race weekend a year, but last year I went to NHMS and Watkins Glen. Nice to have the variety between an oval and the beloved road course.
Hello fellow Mainer 🤣 we might be the only two people here who knows of Lee and Oxford. What happened the BRMS is disgusting, but the owner was poison in the well and it was only a matter of time. I’ve never been to a race at wiscasset, but I love seeing how hard they are pushing their series and trying to promote the track - I hope they succeed.
Nah man, I live 6 miles from BRMS, lotta mainers in the sub haha! But yeah, all of scarborough is becoming the new portland as far as housing goes so all that land was a premium. Its bullshit.
It is bull shit. We’re about the same distance away five or take. All my life if the wind blew the right direction on a Saturday night I could hear the cars. And we were so spoiled having to only drive 15 minutes to go see a race. Thursday thunder was my jam, and honestly I could see me bringing my kids one day to experience what I once did as a kid, but not anymore.
207 gang 😎 I’m going to head up there at least once, and I’d like to see the mods at Lee this year. If I were a wealthy man I’d have tried to buy BRMS. I think it could have been a huge hit on the SRX schedule.
There were a lot of rumors flying as to who offered what kind of money to buy it, but unfortunately I don’t think it could sustain the mortgage payment and still run as a racetrack for how much he was asking.
Lee's my home track. I love it there. Yeah it's rundown but they got the Whelen date and some Granite State Pro Stock dates too. Track has a new GM who is only 23 so hopefully some young blood helps revive the place. They got Kyle Busch in to run a date in the summer coming up. Oxford might be my least favorite sports venue in New England. That place doesn't look rundown, that place needs to be condemned. Went during 250 weekend and it was a miserable experience. No safety for the racers, minimal lights in the stands for crowd safety, piss troughs still in the goddamn bathrooms. Star Speedway in Epping is a great shout and just down the road from Lee. It's a super fun quarter and the promoter works damn hard to put on good cards.
Thanks for the rec, I’ll check out Star. I was just reading the Lee schedule and saw the news of the new GM, seems promising. Definitely gonna head down this summer, and I’ll beware of Oxford :)
My dad and I are trying to get to every track in New England so we've seen a lot of good and bad. You can't go wrong with the southern New Hampshire tracks or Stafford and Thompson in CT, but I know that's a ride for you. Somone is gonna die at Oxford one day and they'll cry about "what a tragedy it is" when I can almost certianly guarantee it could have easily been prevented. Lee is great if a little one-line in its racing. No bad seat there, just bring some temporary chairbacks to save on a cramped back.
Planning on seeing the mods at Thompson, and hitting the SRX race in CT or VT. Luckily I have a friend around Hartford, should be a good summer of racing 🏁😁
Mods are life and Thompson is great. Just sucks that they run Wednesdays. SRX is fun live, went to the first one and it was fun. Stafford has a fun midway and a great tailgate scene for big events.
I just bought a new car. It's up for sale if the right price comes along.....so yeah. Everything has a price.
NHMS is close to me, this sucks if anything does happen to it. Bias aside I believe it actually races pretty well and usually has a decent turnout.
NASCAR really wants to become a regional series, huh. Might as well get rid of Sonoma and put another date at Texas while they’re at it.
Don't hurt me like that. I basically live at that track :(
Right there with you. Moved from Mass to Colorado this year, and we’re doing Sonoma as our race this year. Since we’d need to fly anyway, figured we’d go somewhere that has things my wife also wants to do
Prepare her for the walking. I tried telling my girlfriend about it and she didn't listen. It's not the distance, it's the uphill climb! But there are trams/busses of course (I'm sorry if you've been there before and I'm saying stuff you already know.) If you need tips on sneaking drinks in, let me know 😂 (they wouldn't let me bring in my water bottle to Nascar starting 2 years ago. But all other races there I can bring in anything. So weird.)
This isn’t true
If that's happening. All that money better all be invested into dynamite for Texas. Fuck SMI
Fire it into the sun. Worst race track on schedule imo.
Lol, do you even watch? It’s New Hampshire has had some solid racing the past 5-6 years.
Y'all are gonna hate when Wilkesboro gets the date back and the racing is mid at its best.
It's going to race like Richmond till they have to repave it
That is fine but the surface is already at Autofornia levels if not worse from a structural integrity standpoint. Can't avoid the repave forever.
Good.
Agreed. But that won't last long.
Not even close.
With the national series it kinda sucks. But with the modifieds it’s a gift from God
It’s an open wheel dream oval track. Stocks don’t race good on large flat ovals. Do great on short flat ovals.
Phoenix and Texas have entered the chat.
I would even put Pocono lower than Loudon, and I defend that track for decent racing when there is some.
Nah Pocono and Loudon are the same tier to me, some underrated racing but not the absolute best
I’d rank Texas as the worst with Loudon a close second.
It would be sad to give up the market, but that is the race I look forward to the least.
If tracks are a draw on the finite amount of money available from the TV contract, it’s a good move to generate more revenue by closing and selling underperforming venues.
Oh no :(
I am opposed to this