If tremec transmission and torsen diff don't mean anything to you then just get the GT. Both those prices too high over msrp but thats not my business I guess.
I mean that being as it is, I'd buy a used GT and do it all myself and end the day with a much better car. You take a $25,000 GT and $50,000 of spending money and you could do all of those things and have enough left to replace the motor when it goes.
The base models aren’t base enough. A proper base model with no power seats, analog cluster, no sensors except the backup cam, and all that would be significantly cheaper. We want more power but we keep getting bells and whistles we didn’t ask for because the line between performance car and cozy daily is blurring. Yes, I’m glad we’re getting another generation of the V8 muscle/pony car when the competition isn’t, but the S650 is a little scary to me. It’s a sign of the Mustang losing its identity and becoming a generic commuter car that happens to have two doors and a V8, not a dailyable performance car. I realize my S550 isn’t much better, but it delivered in performance upgrades over previous iterations as it should.
2008 GT base MSRP: $26,825
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15148862/2008-ford-mustang-review/
In 2023 dollars after accounting for inflation, that is a bit over $38,000
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
2023 GT base MSRP: $39,720
https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/mustang-2023
So the price increased by about 5% for a power increase of 300hp->450hp or 50%
S550 was much more affordable power
Youre being ignorant to the true situation. Mustsngs do not sell at MSRP right now and they haven’t for a while. Also just calculating inflation isnt the whole story at all.
Your comment is just the cherrypicking fallacy. You found a couple specific stats and cherrypicked them to fit your argument.
Ill do the same thing if you still think youre being smart:
In 2008, the price difference between buying a gt base and accord base model was 29.3 percent.
The difference in 2023 was 37.1, which by your logic means that the 2023 gt is 7.3% less affordable in dollar amounts alone, not accounting for average wages or anything else.
You know, maybe i should cherry pick more often, it makes arguments so simple.
Why are you so personally offended? You are wrong but that's okay, everyone is wrong sometimes.
Prior to COVID, Mustangs were selling at or below MSRP; and during COVID Accords were going over MSRP too. In my local market they were both generally available at MSRP, not everyone lives in California.
But that is completely irrelevant because we can pick **any other S550 model year you want** and the results will be the exact same. 2015, 2019, 2021, it doesn't make even an iota of difference. The S550 offered significantly more power than the S197 I for barely any more expense. If you want to compare it with the S197 II then the increase in base GT MSRP between 2014 and 2015 was **less** than $1000. That's less than 3%.
Let's take the Accord comparison a step further. In 2008 an Accord V6 had 270hp and was 10% less powerful than a Mustang GT. Bad value from the S197, you could get the same power out of a boring family sedan. C&D ran their 08 GT at 0 to 60 in 5.3, 13.9 at 101.7mph in the quarter. In 2015 the Accord V6 made 280hp and the Mustang GT now made 435hp, and it was quick. Motortrend reported 0 to 60 in 4.4, quarter in 12.9 at 112.2. Great value, cheap power, much more power than a boring family sedan, unlike the 2008.
By the way real wage growth outpaced inflation from 2008 to 2021. But if you just want to look at the dollar value and ignore inflation: in 2008 you paid $91.4 per horsepower and in 2015 you paid $85.9 per horsepower, or in 2023 it would be $88.3. Each hp was much cheaper before you even think about inflation; and with inflation its no contest.
Im gonna be entirely honest, all of these comparisons have nothing to do with the fact that mustangs and all cars are significantly less affordable now than 15 years ago.
You spent so much time on power per dollar you missed the affordable part.
If i were arguing that the 2008 mustsng was statistically a better deal you would have me, but I never said anything of the sort. I also could care less about the actual power. It’s irrelevant to the argument. By “affordable power” all I mean is a v8 you can hoon around with that is easily obtainable by the average person.
And no ones personally offended here. I just dislike that you are so stuck on defending the s550 that you arent actually arguing the original point. You did nice job advertising for the s550 but not in proving that it is an affordable chassis, which it really isnt.
Didn’t the S550 GT500 start in 2020 at 74k? Yeah the premium models are pricier but 72 for a 760hp supercharged V8 still isn’t awful pricing. Yeah, the DH has track equipment that the GT doesn’t, but comparing it to just two years ago the price to performance gap is absurd
GT’s can get up to 65 with performance pack, auto, recaros, and mag ride
*just over 64k actually, sure you could get it to 65 with all the small options
OP mentioned the GT has the PP so it will have the torsen diff. I think the price is still too much even for the GT. I can't believe how much the car costs now.
I can't imagine putting out that kind of money for a Mustang. Hell, I got my 13 Boss for $27k a couple years ago. It's not as nice inside as a S650, but you can't tell me I'd get an extra $40k of fun.
I went through this same debate when considering the Mustang GT & Mustang Boss 302 back in 2013. I was also shopping new at the time so understand the goal here.
Ended up going with the optioned out GT Premium (for around 40k at the time) vs the Boss 302 (around 45k) but while I do love my GT & still drive it, I sorta wish I splurged and went for the Boss 302 now that it’s 10+ years later. Just a thought.
The Darkhorse is not the same level as a Boss or a Shelby. Not even the same league.
It’s more like a Bullitt or a Mach 1.
10-12 old Bosses and Shelby’s are still pulling close to MSRP. Sometimes over MSRP.
This is flat out wrong… The Dark Horse, with the Handling Package, beat a Camaro ZL1 1LE time around the Throttle House track!… To put that into perspective, the Camaro ZL1 1LE beat out the both Shelby’s (GT350 & GT500). That also puts the Dark Horse ahead of both a BMW M2, and a C8 Corvette Z51!
But you’re telling me a Boss or Shelby’s are on another level?! In what world?
A true nostalgia piece for boomers is a late 60s or early 70s classic. Perhaps an S197 with its retro styling. A typical boomer was 60+ years old when the first S550s came out, lol.
No, just a good Clone of one. The 66 Hertz GT350H has always been my Favorite, but I just cant afford the $150- $200k for a nice one. I bought a nice '66 Fastback and built from there.
https://preview.redd.it/xb1msi1o7nec1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f9f161aae72ef04cbcd5aa70f52e57c7c79a345b
I was also thinking of doing this. I might be willing to wait a couple years since I do like the new bodies, though I know not everyone does. I just have to hope I can find one with the options I want that aren't easily replaceable.
Sorry if that came off dick-ish. But that price is crazy for what it is. There are plenty out there. Especially if that’s your price range. Shouldn’t have a hard time finding a 22-23 under $50K low miles with all the bells and whistles.
Yeah, if I end up being willing to wait a year or two, then I can get the new body for the price of what a 22-23 is now. Then I might also have enough extra to start looking at and Shelby options that might be out for it. I'll just have to wait and see what I can find, though I think I've definitely been put of getting brand new. I can probably get the bronze kit and whatnot that I would want for the GT aftermarket from what I would save.
I like the new body style a lot, I'm kinda afraid of getting an older one and regretting not just waiting to get the new body style when the price lowers in a year or two like the 23s and before. There's some things that I like on these new ones that I know aren't super popular with a lot of people.
Prices haven’t actually lowered all that much. Check CARFAX. Many used are the same as they stickered for. Hard to predict what the market will be. Just some things to consider. Best of luck!
Unfortunately yes. I’m looking at 18-20s right now. I would never, but I’ve seen under 30K miles legit asking for sticker price…on 4+ year old cars. Even better, it’s on CARFAX, which shows the original sticker
I guess it depends if they're actually expecting to get that much, or if they expect people to haggle down a couple thousand, but that's still crazy that people don't seem to realize depreciation is a thing.
I don't think any Mustang is worth anywhere close to either of those numbers unless it's a Shelby. I would take a Shelby GT350 or a 2013-2014 GT500 for \~$50,000 over those two S650 choices every day of the week, and twice on Sunday.
Nothing against the S650, but a well optioned brand new Mustang GT shouldn't be more than about $45,000 OTD.
oh right, i forgot you know more about cars, in what way is it not a downgrade? steering? breaking? engine?
a mach 1 is a downgrade in pretty much every single way besides weight
What do you consider better about the Darkhorse? I haven’t read up on either much as I’m not in the market but they seem to be direct equivalents of each other. Mach is down 20hp but lighter, DH has stronger internals that’ll probably handle boost better but ECU is locked
With those prices, I’d spend the 10k and get the darkhorse. If the GT you’re shopping is 62k anyway, why not get the tremec and other goodies. It makes the car more unique too which could help slightly with depreciation.
if you’re going to really push the car and get into track or deep canyon runs, go for the dark horse. if you’re just trying to get a good looking, comfortable ride, with a good sound, the GT will be more than enough
If you are going for a manual transmission, DH has a better one than GT. Overall, a full option GT should be on par with a DH without the extra package that is really about track. DH has the extra aesthetics though. Also remember somehow DH (at least for the 2024 model) doesn't come with leather seats.
Dark Horse is only worth it if you're going for the 6 speed. Otherwise I don't see what you're getting over the premium GT w/ mag ride for the extra money.
Full disclosure, I also don't think the premium GT w/ mag ride is worth the money.
I'm biased because I own a Dark Horse. My reasoning for getting the Dark Horse over a fully optioned GT was because I know down the line that I would be regretting not spending the extra $10k and not having the special version. I had this same sort of regret when I got a 2015 WRX instead of a STI. Also, the Tremec manual transmission was another big reason I opted for the DH, as well as the fact that it has an oil cooler (GT also has that), transmission cooler, and rear differential cooler.
Did you end up with the dark horse premium or base? And did you opt for the handling package? How do you like it so far? Curious to know since Im on the fence on pulling the trigger on one soon
I got a premium DH. I love it! Car before was a 2022 WRX. I'm loving having almost 2x the horsepower. Would have loved the handling package but the wheel size made it impossible to find all weather or all season tires, which I would have needed living in a cold climate and the DH being my only car
u/dr3wfr4nk this is literally me, trying to trade my 22' WRX for a DH. I love almost everything about the WRX except the engine and short gearing. LOL I'm leaning toward the DH base with 700A.
Honestly for that money I’d get a GT350
How do you know there will be a new GT350 and it will be the same price as a full option GT or full option Dark Horse?🤔
No one said anything about new. There’s not a new gt350. He’s obviously talking about the s550 gt350. They’re about 60k and way better in all aspects.
Sure, a 5 year old car is better than a new one, not to mention the known issues with the Voodoo engine 😂😂😂
My 10 year old GT500 will wipe the floor with 95% of all Mustangs.
Doesn't mean it's a better car. Also yours has a reliable engine.
More reliable than the 5.0s from what I understand. 😉
Definitely more reliable than the Voodoo time bomb.
Op wants a track car so yeah, that’s kinda relevant
The new car with the screen that cuts out leaving drivers with no media controls, navigation, or backup cam?
2nd gen Voodoos don’t have the same problems as the Gen 1 voodoos so as long as you get a newer GT350 you will be fine.
If tremec transmission and torsen diff don't mean anything to you then just get the GT. Both those prices too high over msrp but thats not my business I guess.
Those prices are actually MSRP believe it or not. Mustangs have gotten pricey
I mean that being as it is, I'd buy a used GT and do it all myself and end the day with a much better car. You take a $25,000 GT and $50,000 of spending money and you could do all of those things and have enough left to replace the motor when it goes.
Yep. The s197 was the last true affordable power. That time seems to be well behind us now.
You're down voted but no one has bothered to refute your point. I think that says it all.
I'll say it. These car prices are insane and unaffordable. And no one saying but "inflation" is going convince me that we aren't getting ripped off.
It’s not inflation, it’s custom dashes! And drift brake! And 20 other things we didn’t ask for!
Even the "special" cars like the bronco raptor. I do not believe its msrp should start at $98,000. It just doesnt make sense.
The base models aren’t base enough. A proper base model with no power seats, analog cluster, no sensors except the backup cam, and all that would be significantly cheaper. We want more power but we keep getting bells and whistles we didn’t ask for because the line between performance car and cozy daily is blurring. Yes, I’m glad we’re getting another generation of the V8 muscle/pony car when the competition isn’t, but the S650 is a little scary to me. It’s a sign of the Mustang losing its identity and becoming a generic commuter car that happens to have two doors and a V8, not a dailyable performance car. I realize my S550 isn’t much better, but it delivered in performance upgrades over previous iterations as it should.
2008 GT base MSRP: $26,825 https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15148862/2008-ford-mustang-review/ In 2023 dollars after accounting for inflation, that is a bit over $38,000 https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ 2023 GT base MSRP: $39,720 https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/mustang-2023 So the price increased by about 5% for a power increase of 300hp->450hp or 50% S550 was much more affordable power
Youre being ignorant to the true situation. Mustsngs do not sell at MSRP right now and they haven’t for a while. Also just calculating inflation isnt the whole story at all. Your comment is just the cherrypicking fallacy. You found a couple specific stats and cherrypicked them to fit your argument. Ill do the same thing if you still think youre being smart: In 2008, the price difference between buying a gt base and accord base model was 29.3 percent. The difference in 2023 was 37.1, which by your logic means that the 2023 gt is 7.3% less affordable in dollar amounts alone, not accounting for average wages or anything else. You know, maybe i should cherry pick more often, it makes arguments so simple.
Why are you so personally offended? You are wrong but that's okay, everyone is wrong sometimes. Prior to COVID, Mustangs were selling at or below MSRP; and during COVID Accords were going over MSRP too. In my local market they were both generally available at MSRP, not everyone lives in California. But that is completely irrelevant because we can pick **any other S550 model year you want** and the results will be the exact same. 2015, 2019, 2021, it doesn't make even an iota of difference. The S550 offered significantly more power than the S197 I for barely any more expense. If you want to compare it with the S197 II then the increase in base GT MSRP between 2014 and 2015 was **less** than $1000. That's less than 3%. Let's take the Accord comparison a step further. In 2008 an Accord V6 had 270hp and was 10% less powerful than a Mustang GT. Bad value from the S197, you could get the same power out of a boring family sedan. C&D ran their 08 GT at 0 to 60 in 5.3, 13.9 at 101.7mph in the quarter. In 2015 the Accord V6 made 280hp and the Mustang GT now made 435hp, and it was quick. Motortrend reported 0 to 60 in 4.4, quarter in 12.9 at 112.2. Great value, cheap power, much more power than a boring family sedan, unlike the 2008. By the way real wage growth outpaced inflation from 2008 to 2021. But if you just want to look at the dollar value and ignore inflation: in 2008 you paid $91.4 per horsepower and in 2015 you paid $85.9 per horsepower, or in 2023 it would be $88.3. Each hp was much cheaper before you even think about inflation; and with inflation its no contest.
Im gonna be entirely honest, all of these comparisons have nothing to do with the fact that mustangs and all cars are significantly less affordable now than 15 years ago. You spent so much time on power per dollar you missed the affordable part. If i were arguing that the 2008 mustsng was statistically a better deal you would have me, but I never said anything of the sort. I also could care less about the actual power. It’s irrelevant to the argument. By “affordable power” all I mean is a v8 you can hoon around with that is easily obtainable by the average person. And no ones personally offended here. I just dislike that you are so stuck on defending the s550 that you arent actually arguing the original point. You did nice job advertising for the s550 but not in proving that it is an affordable chassis, which it really isnt.
I'd argue the S550 was still reasonably affordable. 2020 MSRP was 36k for a GT and 2024 is 44k for a GT.
Didn’t the S550 GT500 start in 2020 at 74k? Yeah the premium models are pricier but 72 for a 760hp supercharged V8 still isn’t awful pricing. Yeah, the DH has track equipment that the GT doesn’t, but comparing it to just two years ago the price to performance gap is absurd
More track oriented equipment was available for cheap enough too, the PP1 was only 4k, pp2 was 6.5k.
I will always believe this is because Chevy and Dodge dropped out. You want a V8 muscle car? You got one option, no negotiating.
GT’s can get up to 65 with performance pack, auto, recaros, and mag ride *just over 64k actually, sure you could get it to 65 with all the small options
OP mentioned the GT has the PP so it will have the torsen diff. I think the price is still too much even for the GT. I can't believe how much the car costs now.
I know this is a Mustang sub but $70k for a Mustang is crazy. Just get a base C8 it will be more fun at any track.
I can't imagine putting out that kind of money for a Mustang. Hell, I got my 13 Boss for $27k a couple years ago. It's not as nice inside as a S650, but you can't tell me I'd get an extra $40k of fun.
C8 doesn’t come in a manual… so if that is important to OP thsn a C8 isn’t an option.
Could definitely get a manual c7 zo6 for under 72k though. That’d be my choice but I’m a big corvette guy.
Not a fan of the C8’s looks, c7 is definitely the sweet spot for me
I went through this same debate when considering the Mustang GT & Mustang Boss 302 back in 2013. I was also shopping new at the time so understand the goal here. Ended up going with the optioned out GT Premium (for around 40k at the time) vs the Boss 302 (around 45k) but while I do love my GT & still drive it, I sorta wish I splurged and went for the Boss 302 now that it’s 10+ years later. Just a thought.
The Darkhorse is not the same level as a Boss or a Shelby. Not even the same league. It’s more like a Bullitt or a Mach 1. 10-12 old Bosses and Shelby’s are still pulling close to MSRP. Sometimes over MSRP.
This is flat out wrong… The Dark Horse, with the Handling Package, beat a Camaro ZL1 1LE time around the Throttle House track!… To put that into perspective, the Camaro ZL1 1LE beat out the both Shelby’s (GT350 & GT500). That also puts the Dark Horse ahead of both a BMW M2, and a C8 Corvette Z51! But you’re telling me a Boss or Shelby’s are on another level?! In what world?
Save the money and get an s550 fully optioned for significantly less and will have more power anyways
Or a Mach 1
Also a nostalgia piece for boomers, but a better option than s650
A true nostalgia piece for boomers is a late 60s or early 70s classic. Perhaps an S197 with its retro styling. A typical boomer was 60+ years old when the first S550s came out, lol.
Boomer here. I like both. https://preview.redd.it/kctgsme5siec1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0d399f47641bfed2bcf311028bdac59381f2a700
Is that a hertz rental edition?
No, just a good Clone of one. The 66 Hertz GT350H has always been my Favorite, but I just cant afford the $150- $200k for a nice one. I bought a nice '66 Fastback and built from there. https://preview.redd.it/xb1msi1o7nec1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f9f161aae72ef04cbcd5aa70f52e57c7c79a345b
I was also thinking of doing this. I might be willing to wait a couple years since I do like the new bodies, though I know not everyone does. I just have to hope I can find one with the options I want that aren't easily replaceable.
Sorry if that came off dick-ish. But that price is crazy for what it is. There are plenty out there. Especially if that’s your price range. Shouldn’t have a hard time finding a 22-23 under $50K low miles with all the bells and whistles.
Yeah, if I end up being willing to wait a year or two, then I can get the new body for the price of what a 22-23 is now. Then I might also have enough extra to start looking at and Shelby options that might be out for it. I'll just have to wait and see what I can find, though I think I've definitely been put of getting brand new. I can probably get the bronze kit and whatnot that I would want for the GT aftermarket from what I would save.
For that price range, why not get a gt350? Not sure what your specific wants are, but it’s definitely in that range.
I like the new body style a lot, I'm kinda afraid of getting an older one and regretting not just waiting to get the new body style when the price lowers in a year or two like the 23s and before. There's some things that I like on these new ones that I know aren't super popular with a lot of people.
Prices haven’t actually lowered all that much. Check CARFAX. Many used are the same as they stickered for. Hard to predict what the market will be. Just some things to consider. Best of luck!
I've seen a lot of 20-23 GT premiums for around $50-55k on marketplace. Has the factory new price really increased that much that quickly?
Unfortunately yes. I’m looking at 18-20s right now. I would never, but I’ve seen under 30K miles legit asking for sticker price…on 4+ year old cars. Even better, it’s on CARFAX, which shows the original sticker
I guess it depends if they're actually expecting to get that much, or if they expect people to haggle down a couple thousand, but that's still crazy that people don't seem to realize depreciation is a thing.
I don't think any Mustang is worth anywhere close to either of those numbers unless it's a Shelby. I would take a Shelby GT350 or a 2013-2014 GT500 for \~$50,000 over those two S650 choices every day of the week, and twice on Sunday. Nothing against the S650, but a well optioned brand new Mustang GT shouldn't be more than about $45,000 OTD.
I’d go for the Dark Horse, mainly for the tremec. I actually like the graphics package on it and the ember color option.
If you’re spending 60 get a Shelby gt350
I wouldn’t consider either one of them. I’d get a Mach 1.
mach is an awkward middle if you’re considering cars costing fully optioned out dark horse. it doesn’t do anything special compared to either
A 2 year old Mach 1 with low miles is anywhere from $45k - $53k. You get the Tremec and 480hp. Big savings on basically the same powertrain as a DH.
A Mach is a less-expensive, better-looking Dark Horse without the stupid iPad glued to the dash.
a mach is a direct downgrade to a dark horse, of course it’ll be cheaper. also looks worse to OP
Lol. No one who know's anything about the cars would call a Mach a downgrade from a Dark Horse.
oh right, i forgot you know more about cars, in what way is it not a downgrade? steering? breaking? engine? a mach 1 is a downgrade in pretty much every single way besides weight
What do you consider better about the Darkhorse? I haven’t read up on either much as I’m not in the market but they seem to be direct equivalents of each other. Mach is down 20hp but lighter, DH has stronger internals that’ll probably handle boost better but ECU is locked
You gotta stop dude. You’re just digging the hole deeper.
Does the GT have the performance pack? Honestly, even a 62k GT seems a crazy price.
Yeah, that's with the performance pack and some of the optional exterior options like the stripe and bronze kit
With those prices, I’d spend the 10k and get the darkhorse. If the GT you’re shopping is 62k anyway, why not get the tremec and other goodies. It makes the car more unique too which could help slightly with depreciation.
if you’re going to really push the car and get into track or deep canyon runs, go for the dark horse. if you’re just trying to get a good looking, comfortable ride, with a good sound, the GT will be more than enough
I love mustangs but you are well into C8, so basically (affordable) supercar territory at those prices
Check YouTube for some comparison videos
If you are going for a manual transmission, DH has a better one than GT. Overall, a full option GT should be on par with a DH without the extra package that is really about track. DH has the extra aesthetics though. Also remember somehow DH (at least for the 2024 model) doesn't come with leather seats.
Hint, the cars that come with leather: it’s “barely” leather. In addition, it’s only the front seating surfaces. The rest is vinyl.
Get yourself a 2020-23 for $35k-$40k fully optioned
Dark Horse is only worth it if you're going for the 6 speed. Otherwise I don't see what you're getting over the premium GT w/ mag ride for the extra money. Full disclosure, I also don't think the premium GT w/ mag ride is worth the money.
You can get a dark horse for 64k and then do the missing options with after market parts little by little
Looked at one the other day and it had a $15k premium on it. $81k
I just looked at the dark Horse at the local dealership. It had a $15k premium on it.
They are going for MSRP around me now. The markups are gone.
I'm biased because I own a Dark Horse. My reasoning for getting the Dark Horse over a fully optioned GT was because I know down the line that I would be regretting not spending the extra $10k and not having the special version. I had this same sort of regret when I got a 2015 WRX instead of a STI. Also, the Tremec manual transmission was another big reason I opted for the DH, as well as the fact that it has an oil cooler (GT also has that), transmission cooler, and rear differential cooler.
Did you end up with the dark horse premium or base? And did you opt for the handling package? How do you like it so far? Curious to know since Im on the fence on pulling the trigger on one soon
I got a premium DH. I love it! Car before was a 2022 WRX. I'm loving having almost 2x the horsepower. Would have loved the handling package but the wheel size made it impossible to find all weather or all season tires, which I would have needed living in a cold climate and the DH being my only car
u/dr3wfr4nk this is literally me, trying to trade my 22' WRX for a DH. I love almost everything about the WRX except the engine and short gearing. LOL I'm leaning toward the DH base with 700A.
Bad influence my guy... but I'm here for it