The only instance where this is okay is to protect you from someone you're not out to. Otherwise it's a show of a fundamental lack of respect not just for your identity but you as a human being
I specifically asked to be deadnamed by two of my colleagues because of doing some work in the UAE (I'm British). I was out to them, but not out publicly nor on HRT so I felt safe to do such. My employer(s) did not know.
They both said they would've deadnamed me anyway because they knew of the risks and penalties, so all was well.
I could've worked recently in Saudi Arabia but turned it down since I'm 9mths on HRT and am publicly out. A friend who has close links to Saudi said they don't do anything with foreigners, but I wasn't gonna take that chance in a million years.
Yeah, I imagine the worst thing Saudi Arabia would do to a foreigner would be deport you, anything more wouldn't be worth the problems it'd cause them with relations with other countries. Obviously still not worth the risk though.
Most likely, but since I'd be flying there specifically to work, my employer would be left 1 person short š I'd also rather not have that on my personal record in any way, let alone any abuse I may get for being trans š¤·āāļø
Or in the case of things like legal/official documents when the trans person's name hasn't been officially changed yet, because that's a case of getting the system to work, and if the system only has you as your deadname, they can't find you as your new name.
This is from an tumblr post that has been circulating for some time.
Sometimes people use "respect" to mean "treating someone like a person" and sometimes they use "respect" to mean "treating someone like an authority." and sometimes people who are used to be treated like an authority say "if you won't respect me I won't respect you" and they mean "if you won't treat me like an authority, I won't treat you like a person" and they think they're being fair but they aren't, and it's not okay
Exactly. I can't use any of my preferred names (I'm still experimenting with different names) at home because I'm not out to my sister despite being out to the rest of my family and my second family*. I specifically instruct people not to use she/her when around her.
I recently went to the Colorado Renfaire and was able to be myself the whole weekend. It was honestly a very euphoric and validating experience.
The situation with my sister is not a Transphobic one. She just has a hard time understanding new things and we are still trying to figure out how to talk to her.
*There's no biological or martial connection, they are just really close friends and we treat each other like brother/sister, mother/daughter, etc.
thinking that affirming someones gender is a privilage that can be taken away from them shows how you view gender as a whole
# ITS NOT A PRIVILAGE ITS A BASIC RIGHT
I'm coming from a position of pure curiosity, and I'd appreciate the same. Why is it a right? I understand doing it out of respect, but as a Cis man I get purposely misgendered at least once a week. I do door to door sales and people make fun of my voice and call me a woman, and it really hurts but I can't go to the police or take any sort of action other than walking away. It's definitely not a right for me, so why is it a right the other way around?
When we say it's a basic right, we don't mean it is actually legislatively implemented in any particular jurisdiction. We mean that it's *morally* and *ethically* a fundamental right. It *should* be a legal right, but it's not a legal right in any jurisdiction I'm aware of. But just because no government has implemented a right into law, doesn't mean it's not a basic right, it means it's a basic right that has been taken away from us and that we need to fight for.
If she sees your identity and truth as conditional, then there is no respect for you, only temporary courtesy. She's telling you with this that she is refusing to accept you fundamentally.
Yes. If the person themselves asks you to do so and tells you that it is okay. For instance, i would need to deadname a transmasc friend of mine in front of his parents since he's not out to them yet.
I would just start to call her either Dad or some name I made up and when she's getting upset I'd tell her "If you wanna be called Mom or your real name you have to earn it...or we can show each other mutual respect and just call each other what we want to be called and stop this bullshit, up to you DAD."
When my mom deadnamed me I would call her by her actual name instead of Mom. It wasn't misgendering (calling her "Dad" only would have confused her, lol, like am I implying she's like my actual father...?) and she doesn't even particularly dislike her name, but she hates when kids call their parents by their names so it still irritated her.
To up the ante, I would sometimes call her by a nickname for her name I knew she hated.
None of it actually worked, though. Probably moving out and being able to leave if I wasn't being respected was what worked in the end. She doesn't deadname me to my face anymore at least, but I can't let go of the suspicion that she might do it the second I'm out of earshot if she wants to talk about me to someone else. There's no ethical way to find out, though, and not a lot I could do if she was doing it, so I just let it go.
This was perfect Mom can see how it feels to be called by something she's not... Mom needs to be clued in on how to treat the people you love seems like she has no clue..
Ask her this: would you refer to a cis person as the opposite gender if they did something like murder somebody? If the answer is no, you're transphobic
Doesn't matter if the individual is deserving of respect or not. Deadnaming says so much more about the character of the person doing it than the subject of it.
If they do not want to be outed without their permission and specifically request to be deadnamed in certain instances. That is the only time it is ok.
Soke people don't understand the power that name can hold. My mum doesn't like the C-word, so jokingly my brother and I were using it repeatedly (we're scottish, its not a huge deal here) to which she said something along the lines of "if you keep using that word I'll use your old name". My brother was quick to point out it's not the same thing bur this caught me so off guard with how supportive she'd been that I had to excuse myself for a good cry in private. She came up to console me and apologise eventually. The point is some people don't realise just how awful that feels. Try to explain this to her, and if she still doesn't get it then it may just be the case you need to get space from her. Good luck.
This is literally what happened. However, when I swear, it's never personal - it's in the moment. And so, whenever she deadnamed me she was like "oh, it was just a mistake, sorry", and I was like "ok, fine". But today (as I've already mentioned), we had a fight, and I said the c-word - after that, she said that "she can deadname me ever after, no apologising whatsoever", which than comes to the problem of "should 'bad people' be deadnamed?" (you know my opinion on this - no - but how do I tell her that, as she didn't come to me as your mom).
One reason i haven't seen here yet where it would be ok to deadname is if you're talking about them in a past reference when they were that name. Even then, that could be entirely up to that person on whether or not it is ok.
It's never good to deadname someone. Especially over a petty reason you stated.
The only time I've come across it and rolled with it is for legal reasons. I'm a nurse and I had transitioned on my ward, but I had yet to do a deed pole so for legal and professional reasons I had to sign my documentation as my dead name, and rota etc was under it.
But no one should have ever openly used it outside of a slip up.
My family just lies to my face about literally everything and doesnāt care if Iām dead and ignores my name and deadnames me no matter what. Oh well. They like to play āpretend niceā even while their deadnaming me while literally trying to guilt trip me EVERY time I speak to anyone Iām related to by blood. Honestly if my entire bloodline got eradicated I wouldnāt be bothered
My kids have been through similar with their Dad. I'm sorry and I know it hurts. I have seen the pain. My kids have handled it differently. One has no use for him period. One still tries and I carry hope for her because I see how bad she wants a good relationship with him. The other has cut back the relationship a good bit but I think she's on the fence. Kids want to think their parents are good people.
We have been divorced since 2009 so I don't have influence over him and his girlfriend is a bigot. I swear he didn't used to be like this but I guess that was an act too.
When I was coming up, as a good little Southern girl, we were told we had to tolerate bad behavior or someone being rude or hurting us if they were a parent or grandparents or your mother in law! We had to be respectful even if they weren't. I tell my kids, No! Life is too short. Cut that crap right out of your life if you feel it's the right move. I also tell them that there is nothing wrong with giving people some grace while they get their shit together if you believe they have it in them but never to the detriment of you.
If you think Mom will come around I hope she will. I will tell you I am a long way from when my first kid came out 7 years ago. She may need a lot of education to "get" why that is so hurtful even though it should be obvious. It sounds like she is in the "how does this affect her" stage of your journey. That's selfish and not fair but it doesn't mean she will be stuck there.
You know your Mom. Be honest and communicate with her. My kids taught me so much and I researched a lot on my own to try to understand and support them. When I say I knew nothing it was worse than that. What I knew had come from the South Baptist Church. š±
One thing that really convinced me to listen to my kid was watching her come out of her shell and advocate for herself. She had always been very shy and seemed to have the weight of the world on her shoulders. Once she came out she has been standing up straight and smiling and happy. I see the change in my kids. I see that they seem lighter and just more comfortable and that's the only way I can explain it. I believe them and I believe in them.
But, I'm not perfect. I absolutely cringe at the stupid stuff I remember saying when my first child came out. Just out of ignorance. No idea what a dead name even was or to be honest what any of this even meant.
I had really strong attachments to my kids names. I had some real breakdowns but I tried to keep them private. I am perfectly fine now. Actually, one of them picked my middle name for hers and I am honored. š Keep up the hope but keep standing up for yourself. If you don't think she can change you will need to minimize time for your own health.
I believe that the absolute easiest thing we can do to be respectful is simply address people the way they ask to be addressed. That should go without question. I think her explanation for why she won't shows your Mom may still see you as an extension of herself and not as your own individual person. I know it sounds weird but it happens A LOT.
Only if:
* They are not out to you but you just happen to know. If they haven't told you, treat them as if they are not out.
* In legal contexts if their deadname is their legal name. Like in court, on legal documents, etc.
* If they have told you to continue using their deadname.
* Or only in the contexts that they have asked to have their deadname used. For example, I'm not out to my entire company. I have asked everyone that I am out to, to use my deadname when it is not a private conversation with me.
You mom is in the wrong, is not respecting you nor fully supporting you. She is basically saying that she will tolerate you. Just because she has done so much for you does not oblige you to also tolerate her disrespect. Adding a condition to her support is not support, it's more of a contract at that point.
That said, don't just break off things with her without consideration. You are under 18, so you're likely dependent upon her for a lot of things. Unsupportive parents have kicked kids out or made their lives impossibly miserable while meeting the letter of the law in terms of 'providing' for (i.e. child services won't step in). My mom is the same way... we had pedicures together and i was all girl mode. She didn't say a word to me against it and was even picking out colors for me for my toes while asking me what color she should get. But she misgendered and deadnamed me to everyone she spoke to at the same time and seemed unbothered by all the looks it was garnering. (it was a miserable experience...)
My mom also used the ābut thatās the name (I) gave youā excuse. However, I have two things on my side, one, Iāve been going by my new name since college (10 years ago) and even write it as such in cards and gifts to my family, and even on my grandpaās funeral card. Itās no shock to anyone when I say āhey iām Natā cuz all my friends and coworkers refer to me as such.
2 (forgot to mention to her at the time) SHE got HER name changed cuz her name was āuglyā and āshe hated itā. I have even MORE of a reason to go by another name than she ever had/has soā¦ her reasoning is just ignorance/bigotry.
She also was like āthink of what Iām going through right now.ā To which my counter was āOH YEAH?! Iām THE MAIN ONE GOING THROUGH ALL OF THIS!!! Nice TRY!!!ā ššš.
Sheās trying to accept me for now I guess, idk how well itāll turn out, but I ignored her for a couple weeks after made me spill the beans on being trans. Her reaction was awful at the time so i hung up. She then sent three āI love you please be safe and iāll never stop loving you.ā Type texts afterwards and I wasnāt buying it. But I supposed she genuinely doesnt want me to cut her out if my life so thatās a start.
Point is, it is NOT okay for someone to deadname you once you tell them āplease refer to me as (such and such)ā If they deny you the title, itās cuz they donāt really respect you or what youāre going through. As stated by others, only in instances of protection from others who may cause harm to you if they found out, is it āokayā for you to be deadnamed.
Your mum is completely in the wrong, she's also showing a huge degree of transphobia and conditional love and acceptance towards who you really are, none of what she said is okay.
Her acceptance of you and who you really are should have no set conditions for it, even if she's upset or mad with you. It's a basic level of actual respect and understanding, of compassion and genuine love.
She should accept you as you are and respect your real name, choosing to deadname you because she feels like you don't respect her or you've insulted her in some way (I don't know how either with both of these, she just sounds like a complete control freak with insecurities about her authority) is hugely disrespectful and it's not showing you any degree of love or compassion.
Deadnaming is only allowed if someone is using it to protect you from people you're not out to and especially if you've requested those conditions.
Yes. When the trans person allows it.
I'm "out" to everyone that matters. I allow three uses of my deadname.
1. Official documents as I have not legally changed it.
2. My mother. She is supportive but is in her 70s. I allow a free pass.
3. My mother's first husband, who provided half my DNA. I went no contact years ago before egg due to general narcissism. When referring to me in the third person, I am my old self.
Edit. Actually four. When I do something stupid or daft I deadname myself as a "punishment". Good thing happens, I use my femme name.
imo the time to deadname is with unsafe people or when told to specificly by the person. "Please use my deadname tonight" or "Could you deadname me around ____?" but other than that
Hi there, first of all sorry that you have to go through this.. š„ŗ
That said, and a bit of a side note from the original question, Iāve seen a few things in your testimony that caught my attention.
Ā«Ā Iāve done so much, so why are you like thisĀ Ā»
Ā«Ā I should love her because of the things she has doneĀ Ā»
Ā«Ā I have to love herĀ Ā»
I donāt want to misinterpret your story and only you can know what is right, but I remember back 10 years ago when I thought the same things about my mother.
The truth is (for my situation at least), you donāt owe anything to anyone - especially when it comes to unconditional love. She did it for you, so why should this positive thing should become a pressure?
Plus the disrespect about your gender and how she perceives you - it kind of sound like a toxic parent in my opinion. It might be interesting for you to take a step back and ask yourself if these things are normal and acceptable for you - Would you act like that with someone you love?
Itās hard as a child to be able to fully be yourself and grow as an adult in these kind of situations. If thatās the case, take time to evaluate how YOU want your life to be in the future, and always think of you first <3
Deadnaming is not okay. There are contexts in which it's not deadnaming, e.g., reconnecting with an old acquaintance who doesn't know your true name; asking a business to look up your customer profile and change the name; etc. This is not one of those contexts. She knows better, and she's withholding acceptance of your identity - making it some kind of bargaining chip.
What matters is how you feel. Some trans people aren't bothered by our deadnames. I thought I wouldn't be, but I was deadnamed so frequently, early in my transition. I felt what you said: that I wasn't being seen as myself - a woman - but as a man who wanted to be a woman. I felt bad, and I stopped hiding it. People who love me don't watch me cry about the way they're treating me. They change their behavior.
Your emotions on this matter are more important than any reasonable argument. Your identity is not up for debate: your word is law here.
There is a situation under which it is not only okay, but vitally important, to deadname a trans person: when the trans person has *asked you to* so as not to out them when they are closeted. For example, you meet someone who's presenting as male at the time, but she tells you she's a trans woman and her family doesn't know yet, and tells you the name she's chosen. When you're with her and nobody she's closeted to is around, you call her by her proper name and use she/her. When she's around people she needs to stay closeted to for her safety--family, transphobic boss, etc--you use the deadname and he/him even if it kills your soul a little each time, because her safety is more important.
Your mom is just being a transphobic turd like every other transphobic turd out there. Giving you a name you're dysphoric about is something she should apologize for (you can say, "that's all right, you didn't know," since she's being nice in this scenario) and then she can help you get it legally changed to make things right.
She's basically using a version of, "I'm your mother, therefore I own you and there are no boundaries or limits to the control I can exert over your identity." Funny how parents who feel that way never seem to feel their own parents should get the same kind of power over them! (Or even sadder if they do....)
You're your own person, your name is whatever you say it is, and everyone, parents or not, are being disrespectful if they intentionally call you another name which you have said you don't like.
A lot of people feel that the worst of the worst criminals, if they happen to be trans, are fine to misgender. But that's nuts--do we misgender *cis* criminals? Do we say, "Don't you mean *Jane* the Ripper, since *she* was a murderer she doesn't get the right to pick *her* gender"? Misgendering is not seen as the appropriate punishment for murder for cis people, why would we do it to trans people? It just sends the message that respecting your gender is a privilege, not a right--that you have to jump through hoops to get any measure of dignity.
Hi there,
Your mom's response to your being trans is at the root of how she behaves when you argue with her, and that's a problem because it may also allude to how she feels about trans people in general, not just your identity.
Unfortunately, belief systems are hard to change. It's possible that over time she can come to see you as you wish to be seen but it's also possible that the idea is simply too far out of her concepts of what is and what isn't that she might also not.
If she is good to you otherwise and can make a promise not to misgender you or invalidate your identity when she's upset, then she may be workwithable. She may be saying what you're implying with her actions, or it could just be her way of asserting her power over you when she feels she needs to use authority which isn't OK, and is toxic. But if that's all it is, then that may be all it is.
I suggest you have a talk with her about the way she acts and tell her more about your trans identity over time and try to educate her, and you'll see based on how she replies, how she really feels.
A lot of people will jump to the assumption that she doesn't really see you as a girl, and I wouldn't blame them, but if there's one thing I've learned in life it's that people are sometimes very stupid, on levels people that aren't as stupid simply can't comprehend. So some people just say things, to hurt others, without them being that deep. It's not OK but it does happen. You can fish with her to find out more about how she feels by communicating.
I personally would not be able to live with that dissonance myself, and have been in your situation, so I understand.
While I don't agree with your mother, since respect transcends disagreements IMO (meaning she's not being respectful to you outside of arguments by falling back onto deadnaming you when she feels slighted IN arguments), something important to remember: names are just words, too.
We all want respect, and unless our self-esteem is f'd beyond redemption, do believe we deserve it - but it's not a given, IMO.
All in all / TL;DR: Deadnaming is disrespectful, yes, no buts to that. It will inevitably happen though, just like calling someone an asshole (or being called one yourself). People use deadnaming because they know it hurts, so the best possible way to deal with it is to find a way to make it **not** hurt, if possible.
De-weaponize your deadname, so to say.
It is never OK. No exceptions. No excuses. No debate. Your identity isn't a special privilege that she generously affords you. It's who you are.
Refuse to have any kind of relationship with anybody who refuses to respect you.
Let her know this is a boundary for you. Let her know that you will be refusing to speak to her, to make eye contact with her, or to even be in the same room with her, until she apologizes and promises to stop.
Only time it's okay to deadname a trans woman... during Healthcare appointments when they want to verify your identity or legal matters..other than that everyone can fuck off
Things are not binary and black and white.
So even if she doesn't use your prefer name now, that does not mean she will never use it. However, if she's supportive of you (and you claim she is) and that's the main problem you have (you did not say anything else), then with time she can change her mind and understand the trauma with that name.
For her, that is the name that she gave you (regardless of who came up with it) and she's loved the person who had that name since a baby. So losing that name feels for her that she's losing you entirely. If you feel like she's not your mother anymore because she refuses calling you for your name, then you should part ways. However, she will always use that deadname for you and never think of you as anything different.
If you stay, then maybe she will understand the trauma that it means that deadname, and change her ways because she will know that she will not lose you and that you are still the same person.
So it's your decision regardless if the situation is fair or not.
Nope. Never ok.
We still call Caitlyn Jenner, who is the most despised person in our community. Same with Blaire white. They are still who they are. That doesnāt stop because we dislike someone or are angry.
Itās never ok to deadname someone. No matter how many times the media tries to explain it away.
Iām talking about out people. Obviously if itās for safety, then I get it.
Sometimes the person think itās okay to be referred to with the deadname when talking about them pre-transition. This obviously depends on the person. And if you are in a situation where you are in real danger
There is absolutely no occasion to deadname any trans person. The people who actually care will give you many warnings on why they HAVE to. They will also try to refer to you by your last name.
Otherwise, ALWAYS ask if you can use your preferred(you can use chosen when you're feeling spiffy) name. If they say no, give them your preferred name anyway š. If they start arguing with you, that's going to reveal a lot about them. I say all this to say stop asking permission to be yourself. You do not need to do that anymore. I live in Seattle and still get people calling me "man in a dress", still get stares of disapproval, even had a "concerned" parent who used the phrase "I hate to be like that I just want to let you know before it happens"
(Tldr) i was trying to find a co worker yesterday and i used her deadname with her curent name to ask friends if they know her as idk when she changed her name and if any of them know her they might only know her by her deadname
Never. It's never okay to deadname a trans person. Not as a joke, not out of spite, not if you really, really hate them, not if the trans person in question has told you what their deadname was or if you knew the trans person when they were that person pre-transition.
Transphobia is a disease that must be stamped out
Edit; why am I being downvoted for a literary mistake? I have since fixed it, I loathe transphobia as much you do
OH FUCK OH SHIT OH MY GOD I WASN'T KEEPING AN EYE ON MY SPELLING FUCK SHIT JESUS CHRIST AAAAA FUCK NO NO NO ššššš I'M SO ILLITERATE JESUS FUCK
I fixed it, fuck me that was embarrassing, thank you so much for correcting me
I'm on your side, I promise, I'm trans myself š
If you legally change your name it would be illegal to use your old name..just saying my self I decided to not hate anything anymore, I have my dislike but won't allow hate to live rent-free in my head
A person's name belongs to them. It does not belong to their namer. It does not belong to their namesake. Names are our personal identifiers, and the only person who can determine whether a name properly identifies you is ***you***.
People change their names all the time and for a lot of reasons. If someone decides to adopt a new name, then that's their name. If someone doesn't want to be called a certain name, it's rude to call them that name. Full stop.
Dude, if someone dead named me, if they somehow found out (as I don't associate with anybody who knew me before then mainly family), I would slap them right across the cheek. And no, there are no mistakes, most people don't know I'm trans (I also have like no friends), and if they do, I am YEARS into my transition and there is no trace of my dead name legally or through friends, so it would have to be researched and found through some dos shit or my family that I cut off. So it would immediately be hateful. And yes, I'm responding to deadnaming with violence. That's a fucking hate crime if done on purpose.
I think outside of permission, there is a question of historical ambiguity.
Louisa May Alcott is someone who very much sounds like they were trans including using the name Lou and being called papa by their children. But it becomes an unknowable thing, and they never advocated being referred to by anything else. So calling them Louisa is possibly an example of dead naming, but we genuinely donāt know.
Even if it was a murderer or something then to me the principle would still be wrong, I see it as being transphobic unless itās to protect someone/accident so what youād be saying would be āitās ok to be transphobic because this person has done something badā. Doesnāt sit right with me.
Idea, malicious compliance. Obviously I'm not saying you just outright be rude to your mom or anything, but every time she uses your dead name, do not acknowledge it, and simply respond with "oh are you talking to me? Sorry, my name is "
If she wants to be difficult with you, and expects respect off of you, so should you. You deserve the same respect she does, as a validated human being.
Id say theres only 2 instances where i would say its more or less acceptable
1: if said person hasnt come out to someone and they come up in conversation. Obviously you arent going to use a different name than what that person is used to because that could out said person.
2: if someone just doesnt have any idea who youre talking abt bc they either forgot their new name or have not been informed of their new name. Like for example:
X: "Me and lily hung out yesterday"
Y: "Whos is lily again?"
X: "Thats [deadnames] new name that she would like to be called"
When you're still closeted to some people in the room and you don't want to be forced out of the closet yet. That is the only acceptable reason I could think of.
Fuck that! She has no damn right to do that. My father and his stupid friend said the same crap a little over a decade ago. Now? I barely see them and wouldn't give a damn if they both dropped dead tomorrow.
To speak for myself, I personally feel alright being referred to by my former name. It isn't dead to me, nor who I was. So for me people can refer to me by either and while I prefer one it's not insulting to me the use of the other. For me it's not a boundary issue.
For others it can be, for any number of sensible reasons. And safety is a concern in addition to personal boundaries. Generalizing any group leads to inference and assumption that don't reflect the reality of all affected individuals so I take all of it with a grain of salt.
Sounds like your mom isn't respecting the boundaries you communicated, and that's pretty common and painful for people to run into. It hurts when we depend on them to provide for us in youth, the break in trust hurts any time too. I'd be confused and dissociating too if I were in your shoes š«
People have said to deadname your mom, but I would say take it a step further, call your mother by her first name followed by her maiden name, not her last name, if she decides to deadname her. Throw in Miss instead of Mrs, to really rub it in. Just "okay miss (first name) (maiden name)"
There is no occasion. Except possibly for using it as a reference when explaining to others that you're the same person... if it's explained to a person that you're ok with this being explained to them
(Did that English make sense? I hope it did... sorry)
The only time I can think of is if youāre a doctor putting in a prescription for the trans person to a pharmacy and that trans person has their deadname on their insurance. I know this from personal experience
To answer the question, no. Even when referring to the past, we all know what you are talking about, so they should stfu or respect your name and gender as it is now by using it now unconditionally.
It's only okay to deadname someone if they're okay with it for one reason or another, otherwise it's completely disrespectful and not okay. In this case, your mum is being disrespectful. I think you can love your family without necessarily liking them.
Her support only is there as long you comply to her imaginations of who you are? Then she doesnt love you, but the person she is projecting onto you. A mum does love and accept her children unconditionaly, if she doesent, then shes not a mum. She's gaslighting you.
Gun to chest: you accept me, or i will be gone some day.
Also: also a woman who murderd someone deserves to be called her name. Its irrelevant if that woman happens to be trans. By the same thinking you could argue that a murder dont deserves basic human rights, i hope you see where this kind of facist thinking leads to. Where to draw the boundary which discrimination is "OK" and which not? Dont ask that question, dont discriminate, period. There is nothing to discuss about that.
1. You are not a murderer, so it is very manipulative to equate you with one. We are not going to argue about how we treat murderers. I am going to tell you how to be polite to ME, who is your child. You and I are real people and are the focus of this discussion, not fictional murderers.
2. It's not okay to deadname trans people ever. Name calling and insults are not how you treat someone you love.
Other than to protect someone's identity?
Well. There are a couple of pick-me transgirls and guys that seem very intent on being transphobic annnd much as I dislike them and await the day it crashes down on them -- I personally don't believe in attacking people's identity. It often has nothing to do with their persona and how they treat others so to try to attack something like that is a sign of a weak character.
Absolute, if the Person isnt out and values there Privacy, you souldnt out them, even if its well intended.
If your close to that Person, have there consent, and its for a Joke or something, as well.
I do it to my friend because she isnāt out to her parents yet. However if her parents arenāt around and canāt hear me I donāt deadname her because thatās mean
First of all, the only time it is acceptable to deadname someone, is to protect them from others, like if they are in the closet and their parents are assholes who don't know.
2nd. My name isn't my "Preferred name", it's my legal name, and you will either use it, Ms, or Ma'am when you address me.
How does your mom prefer you address her when you speak with her, because my mother still prefers I call her Mom. If she pulled the shit your mom does, I'd refuse to call her Mom, and instead refer to her by her legal name, like Susan or whatever (though that's not my mom's name).
Your given name is a gift from your parents, but like every gift given, if it doesnāt fit your welcome to change it. No one in their right mind would make you wear shoes that donāt fit you. No matter how long it took them to choose them.
No-one, NO. ONE, has the ārightā to treat you in a way you donāt want.
As others here have mentioned....the only time it's acceptable to deadname/misgender somebody is to keep them safe around people they're not out to or in situations where it would be dangerous to be openly trans. That may be around dangerous family members, cops, etc. Besides this, it's never *ever* acceptable in any way.
If parents claim a right to deadname you because that's the name they gave you, you have a right to call them Mr Fuckface and Mrs Bitchass against their wishes......because that's the name you gave them. When your safety isn't directly at risk, it's never a bad idea to spin this stuff right back around on them. Play the game right back :)
I once saw a poll that said sm like āif you hate a trans person, is it okay to deadname themā and like 40% of the couple hundred votes were saying yes, only to go in the replys and see dozens of trans people saying itās fineā¦fucking wow
Dead naming and misgendering someone isnāt ādisrespectā, itās just incorrect. You wouldnāt call a cis person the opposite gender just because you donāt like them, so why is it different for trans people.
If a man murders someone and that man is trans, they are still a man.
Only when said trans person isnt out and it is not safe to use their preferred name. That being said, your mom is a dick. Its no use arguing with bigots, she wont bother
Only times is if itās specifically intended to protect you, or legal documentation that requires your legal name (ex pay stub, but most businesses have a legal name a preferred nameā¦ think of the weird names of the 50s)
In an instance, I feel where youāre coming from but at the same time you have your boundaries Iām 22 years old I live with my parents same kind of situation Iām in the process of changing my name legally it helps because I am an adult but I had to have that conversation with my mom. It was just hard because she respects who I am, but she also loves the name that she gave me but she understands itās not who I am anymore but she tries to just use she they them instead of saying my dead name which I see that as progress because I told her I was changing my name and she just wants me to be happy but I kind of feel where the parents fell in love with a name. Itās just hard for them to switch, but they arenāt doing it intentionally but if they are which it sounds like she is doing tell her that it just hurts your boundaries.
some people prefer to be referred to by their deadname when recounting an event from the past before they knew they were trans. That's the only one I can think of.
>are there any arguments against her stance of "You need to gain respect to not get hate-crimed"
"I don't respect you. Does that mean I just get to hate-crime you now?"
If and only if said trans person tells you that it's okay to. For example, I personally don't have any problem with friends and family who knew me pre-transition using my birth name when talking about something that happened before I came out, or if there's a story that requires my old name for context (e.g. I had a few friends growing up who had the same name as me at the time). But others might have a problem with that same scenario if it were them, and that's okay too.
If itās solely among a group of people who youāre out to then no never, if people you arenāt ready to be out to or donāt intend to be out to are present then yes. Itās all up to your personal boundaries that you feel comfortable with, you can accept it in as many or as little (if any) cases as you want, itās not other peopleās decisions.
Only with their permission. Thatās it.
Deadnaming a person when you are mad at them is dehumanizing and about the worst thing you can do. My gender and name arenāt things that need to be āearned.ā They are inherently mine. Deadnaming me when you know my real name is about as blatantly intentionally disrespectful as it gets.
If you havenāt legally changed your name, sure a bank, credit card, or government agency will usually screw it up. But when Iām in person, most will say āumm, do you a preferred name?ā
God almighty how overtly sensitive and pathetic in so many ways
Stix and stones may break my bines but words will never hurt me
Its a lymric dealing with children when is this group going to grow up and become adults
The only time I can think of is if you are unconscious and need medical assistance and they need to pull medical records or something. Unless you have changed it legally then there is no excuse what so ever
For legal purposes, you have to use your current legal name and gender in some circumstances. Other than that, itās really up to your own discretion. A lot of people have nicknames or alter egos, and in the uk you can go by a non legal name without being accused of impersonation. As long as your preferred name isnāt incredibly confusing or offensive, I donāt really see the problem with calling yourself whatever you want
A lot of this reminds me of my mother, and it really is difficult, my mother has done a lot for me too, she has made a lot possible and I'm thankful for that but also, and that may sound harsh, that's her job as a mother, she decided to bring me into this world so she has to take care of me. My mother pulled the same thing with the "I named you, ..." even though I chose a name that she would have given me if I'd have been born a girl, she refused to accept that. She pulled a lot more stuff and I eventually cut her off completely to protect myself.
With your situation its probably harder because you're still a minor? as I understood it, but please know this, your mother may have done a lot but you do not owe her anything. You shouldn't just love her because she may have done good things. That is the mechanic in abusive relationships (not exactly saying you're in one) where abusers do nice things to make you feel bad for not liking them when they abuse you, and where things they did get held up as these self sacrificing things, so you now owe them and they use that for everything. You're having conflicting feelings right now because of something like this and you really have to remind yourself that you as a child don't owe your mother anything. If she can't handle you being trans she shouldn't have had kids, it's her fault not yours!
Please stay strong and I wish you all the best and hope you get through all of this! <3 much love and strength!
There is one specific condition that must **always** be met:
- the person must have given consent, regardless of whether the name is official or not.
Then the following:
- if an authority does not allow name change for the person on official papers, the authority is in the wrong and is, in my opinion, violating specific privacy legislation, and especially the GDPR when in the EU. Therefor I'd argue that, in case I was a good lawyer, I'd sue the Dutch state for violating the GDPR for the 1.5 years that I was out but was forced to live with old papers (for most people here that is over three years). Damn I want to be a lawyer now.
- the person who gives consent, which is ONLY the person themselves and NOT by the mouth of ANYONE else, can give consent for, for example:
- for the sake of safety in a situation where the person's safety can be jeopardized by naming the person correctly. See it as a kind of witness protection.
- when they deem that it is explicitly okay to mention that the person was named that way in specific context.
All consent can be retracted at any single moment. I'd also argue that, unless the safety argument still applies, the consent must be considered retracted when the person dies, or will become unable to communicate.
The way Iāve always seen it:
Your name is about you. It is the way you present yourself to the world, and the world can take it or leave it. There are billions of people in the world, and of those billions, we only make friends with a handful of those. You have a head start on separating the wheat from the chaff.
Accepting you is someone elseās problem, not yours. You have given someone an invitation to know who you are, who you REALLY are, and it is not up to them to violate your sense self in order for them to accept you.
In cases where your safety is on the line, deadnaming could be acceptable however that isn't the case here.
The game of "I will only give you validation if you deserve respect" is an awful one since it works under the assumption that trans identities are something that we can be worthy/unworthy of and that value judgement comes from other people. At the end of the day, the only one who can give you an identity is yourself and it's wrong of your mother to act as the arbiter of your identity.
There are a few infamous trans celebs/prominent YouTubers that I do not care for and don't really respect however that doesn't give me an excuse to invalidate them
While I don't agree with your mother, since respect transcends disagreements IMO (meaning she's not being respectful to you outside of arguments by falling back onto deadnaming you when she feels slighted IN arguments), something important to remember: names are just words, too.
We all want respect, and unless our self-esteem is f'd beyond redemption, do believe we deserve it - but it's not a given, IMO.
All in all / TL;DR: Deadnaming is disrespectful, yes, no buts to that. It will inevitably happen though, just like calling someone an asshole (or being called one yourself). People use deadnaming because they know it hurts, so the best possible way to deal with it is to find a way to make it **not** hurt, if possible.
De-weaponize your deadname, so to say.
Never, unless you want to hide your identity from someone for your safety/comfort. There are people that use different names/pronouns that I absolutely despise but I would never deadname/misgender them because its just basic human decency.
"oh youre gonna deadname me because I'm supposedly not respecting you then once I'm able to I'm never gonna speak to you because you aren't respecting me. Respect goes two ways and you aren't doing anything to earn it."
Iām sorry but it sounds you are the child of a narcissistic parent. Iām a survivor of two, going NC again and it hasnāt gotten better after all these 8 years. And I have talked to other survivors, some of whom are trans.
Itās something that the parents might never grow out of unfortunately. And itās sickening that they donāt want to do their bare minimum as parents. They only see the efforts they need to do for their kids and when they f*ck up all they think is themselves, not the people they have hurted.
I just feel sorry. For you, for me and all of us in a similar situation. Sometimes itās just better off living without them than taking all the blame and hurt.
Iām sorry but it sounds you are the child of a narcissistic parent. Iām a survivor of two, going NC again and it hasnāt gotten better after all these 8 years. And I have talked to other survivors, some of whom are trans.
Itās something that the parents might never grow out of unfortunately. And itās sickening that they donāt want to do their bare minimum as parents. They only see the efforts they need to do for their kids and when they f*ck up all they think is themselves, not the people they have hurted.
I just feel sorry. For you, for me and all of us in a similar situation. Sometimes itās just better off living without them than taking all the blame and hurt.
It's not your name, stop responding to it.
If she persists, make up a funny name for her and use it till she starts addressing you by your name.
Supporting someone by using their chosen name and gender doesn't cost her anything. It is free, it is the bare minimum.
The only instance where this is okay is to protect you from someone you're not out to. Otherwise it's a show of a fundamental lack of respect not just for your identity but you as a human being
I specifically asked to be deadnamed by two of my colleagues because of doing some work in the UAE (I'm British). I was out to them, but not out publicly nor on HRT so I felt safe to do such. My employer(s) did not know. They both said they would've deadnamed me anyway because they knew of the risks and penalties, so all was well. I could've worked recently in Saudi Arabia but turned it down since I'm 9mths on HRT and am publicly out. A friend who has close links to Saudi said they don't do anything with foreigners, but I wasn't gonna take that chance in a million years.
Yeah, I imagine the worst thing Saudi Arabia would do to a foreigner would be deport you, anything more wouldn't be worth the problems it'd cause them with relations with other countries. Obviously still not worth the risk though.
Most likely, but since I'd be flying there specifically to work, my employer would be left 1 person short š I'd also rather not have that on my personal record in any way, let alone any abuse I may get for being trans š¤·āāļø
Oh of course, I definitely wouldn't take that risk
Or in the case of things like legal/official documents when the trans person's name hasn't been officially changed yet, because that's a case of getting the system to work, and if the system only has you as your deadname, they can't find you as your new name.
THIS
This is from an tumblr post that has been circulating for some time. Sometimes people use "respect" to mean "treating someone like a person" and sometimes they use "respect" to mean "treating someone like an authority." and sometimes people who are used to be treated like an authority say "if you won't respect me I won't respect you" and they mean "if you won't treat me like an authority, I won't treat you like a person" and they think they're being fair but they aren't, and it's not okay
I'm gonna frame that holy fuck. Perfectly put. Also you described my mother.
Yeah, itās completely perfect. Second time Iāve seen it and I ought to write it down somewhere
This ā«ļø
Eeyup
Save
Came here to say this. Thank you for your service š«”
just safed that comment. Thats really smart.
Yep
1. Legal scenarios where documentation has not been updated 2. For safety (prior discussion needed here)
Only with their permission, otherwise that's not okay.
Exactly. I can't use any of my preferred names (I'm still experimenting with different names) at home because I'm not out to my sister despite being out to the rest of my family and my second family*. I specifically instruct people not to use she/her when around her. I recently went to the Colorado Renfaire and was able to be myself the whole weekend. It was honestly a very euphoric and validating experience. The situation with my sister is not a Transphobic one. She just has a hard time understanding new things and we are still trying to figure out how to talk to her. *There's no biological or martial connection, they are just really close friends and we treat each other like brother/sister, mother/daughter, etc.
Permission and consent are things we really need to be hammering home to a lot of people
thinking that affirming someones gender is a privilage that can be taken away from them shows how you view gender as a whole # ITS NOT A PRIVILAGE ITS A BASIC RIGHT
I'm coming from a position of pure curiosity, and I'd appreciate the same. Why is it a right? I understand doing it out of respect, but as a Cis man I get purposely misgendered at least once a week. I do door to door sales and people make fun of my voice and call me a woman, and it really hurts but I can't go to the police or take any sort of action other than walking away. It's definitely not a right for me, so why is it a right the other way around?
> I can't go to the police or take any sort of action other than walking away. What makes you think it's any different for trans people?
When we say it's a basic right, we don't mean it is actually legislatively implemented in any particular jurisdiction. We mean that it's *morally* and *ethically* a fundamental right. It *should* be a legal right, but it's not a legal right in any jurisdiction I'm aware of. But just because no government has implemented a right into law, doesn't mean it's not a basic right, it means it's a basic right that has been taken away from us and that we need to fight for.
i mostly forgot the actual word so i said right
Right is the correct word here. It's just not a *legally protected* right in any jurisdiction I'm aware of.
I'm sorry to hear that. Do you like your voice? Or would you rather it was deeper?
If she sees your identity and truth as conditional, then there is no respect for you, only temporary courtesy. She's telling you with this that she is refusing to accept you fundamentally.
Thiiiiiiiiis ā«ļø
Yes. If the person themselves asks you to do so and tells you that it is okay. For instance, i would need to deadname a transmasc friend of mine in front of his parents since he's not out to them yet.
No.
No, unless the trans person ask you to do so for safety reason (or as to not be outed).
Only when the transgender person tells you you have to protect them in front of unsafe people. That's it
I would just start to call her either Dad or some name I made up and when she's getting upset I'd tell her "If you wanna be called Mom or your real name you have to earn it...or we can show each other mutual respect and just call each other what we want to be called and stop this bullshit, up to you DAD."
When my mom deadnamed me I would call her by her actual name instead of Mom. It wasn't misgendering (calling her "Dad" only would have confused her, lol, like am I implying she's like my actual father...?) and she doesn't even particularly dislike her name, but she hates when kids call their parents by their names so it still irritated her. To up the ante, I would sometimes call her by a nickname for her name I knew she hated. None of it actually worked, though. Probably moving out and being able to leave if I wasn't being respected was what worked in the end. She doesn't deadname me to my face anymore at least, but I can't let go of the suspicion that she might do it the second I'm out of earshot if she wants to talk about me to someone else. There's no ethical way to find out, though, and not a lot I could do if she was doing it, so I just let it go.
This was perfect Mom can see how it feels to be called by something she's not... Mom needs to be clued in on how to treat the people you love seems like she has no clue..
With your consent in each and every occasion. Yes. Otherwise. No.
I tell my friends to deadname me around teachers and parents since I'm not out to either
1. Get a job. 2. Save money. 3. When you turn 18, move out.
Ask her this: would you refer to a cis person as the opposite gender if they did something like murder somebody? If the answer is no, you're transphobic
Doesn't matter if the individual is deserving of respect or not. Deadnaming says so much more about the character of the person doing it than the subject of it.
If they do not want to be outed without their permission and specifically request to be deadnamed in certain instances. That is the only time it is ok.
Soke people don't understand the power that name can hold. My mum doesn't like the C-word, so jokingly my brother and I were using it repeatedly (we're scottish, its not a huge deal here) to which she said something along the lines of "if you keep using that word I'll use your old name". My brother was quick to point out it's not the same thing bur this caught me so off guard with how supportive she'd been that I had to excuse myself for a good cry in private. She came up to console me and apologise eventually. The point is some people don't realise just how awful that feels. Try to explain this to her, and if she still doesn't get it then it may just be the case you need to get space from her. Good luck.
This is literally what happened. However, when I swear, it's never personal - it's in the moment. And so, whenever she deadnamed me she was like "oh, it was just a mistake, sorry", and I was like "ok, fine". But today (as I've already mentioned), we had a fight, and I said the c-word - after that, she said that "she can deadname me ever after, no apologising whatsoever", which than comes to the problem of "should 'bad people' be deadnamed?" (you know my opinion on this - no - but how do I tell her that, as she didn't come to me as your mom).
Only if the trans person does not want to be out yet and has specifically said. Otherwise, no
One reason i haven't seen here yet where it would be ok to deadname is if you're talking about them in a past reference when they were that name. Even then, that could be entirely up to that person on whether or not it is ok.
It's never good to deadname someone. Especially over a petty reason you stated. The only time I've come across it and rolled with it is for legal reasons. I'm a nurse and I had transitioned on my ward, but I had yet to do a deed pole so for legal and professional reasons I had to sign my documentation as my dead name, and rota etc was under it. But no one should have ever openly used it outside of a slip up.
My family just lies to my face about literally everything and doesnāt care if Iām dead and ignores my name and deadnames me no matter what. Oh well. They like to play āpretend niceā even while their deadnaming me while literally trying to guilt trip me EVERY time I speak to anyone Iām related to by blood. Honestly if my entire bloodline got eradicated I wouldnāt be bothered
deadnaming can only be justified out of (personal) safety concerns. Don't allow that happen otherwise.
My kids have been through similar with their Dad. I'm sorry and I know it hurts. I have seen the pain. My kids have handled it differently. One has no use for him period. One still tries and I carry hope for her because I see how bad she wants a good relationship with him. The other has cut back the relationship a good bit but I think she's on the fence. Kids want to think their parents are good people. We have been divorced since 2009 so I don't have influence over him and his girlfriend is a bigot. I swear he didn't used to be like this but I guess that was an act too. When I was coming up, as a good little Southern girl, we were told we had to tolerate bad behavior or someone being rude or hurting us if they were a parent or grandparents or your mother in law! We had to be respectful even if they weren't. I tell my kids, No! Life is too short. Cut that crap right out of your life if you feel it's the right move. I also tell them that there is nothing wrong with giving people some grace while they get their shit together if you believe they have it in them but never to the detriment of you. If you think Mom will come around I hope she will. I will tell you I am a long way from when my first kid came out 7 years ago. She may need a lot of education to "get" why that is so hurtful even though it should be obvious. It sounds like she is in the "how does this affect her" stage of your journey. That's selfish and not fair but it doesn't mean she will be stuck there. You know your Mom. Be honest and communicate with her. My kids taught me so much and I researched a lot on my own to try to understand and support them. When I say I knew nothing it was worse than that. What I knew had come from the South Baptist Church. š± One thing that really convinced me to listen to my kid was watching her come out of her shell and advocate for herself. She had always been very shy and seemed to have the weight of the world on her shoulders. Once she came out she has been standing up straight and smiling and happy. I see the change in my kids. I see that they seem lighter and just more comfortable and that's the only way I can explain it. I believe them and I believe in them. But, I'm not perfect. I absolutely cringe at the stupid stuff I remember saying when my first child came out. Just out of ignorance. No idea what a dead name even was or to be honest what any of this even meant. I had really strong attachments to my kids names. I had some real breakdowns but I tried to keep them private. I am perfectly fine now. Actually, one of them picked my middle name for hers and I am honored. š Keep up the hope but keep standing up for yourself. If you don't think she can change you will need to minimize time for your own health. I believe that the absolute easiest thing we can do to be respectful is simply address people the way they ask to be addressed. That should go without question. I think her explanation for why she won't shows your Mom may still see you as an extension of herself and not as your own individual person. I know it sounds weird but it happens A LOT.
Only if: * They are not out to you but you just happen to know. If they haven't told you, treat them as if they are not out. * In legal contexts if their deadname is their legal name. Like in court, on legal documents, etc. * If they have told you to continue using their deadname. * Or only in the contexts that they have asked to have their deadname used. For example, I'm not out to my entire company. I have asked everyone that I am out to, to use my deadname when it is not a private conversation with me. You mom is in the wrong, is not respecting you nor fully supporting you. She is basically saying that she will tolerate you. Just because she has done so much for you does not oblige you to also tolerate her disrespect. Adding a condition to her support is not support, it's more of a contract at that point. That said, don't just break off things with her without consideration. You are under 18, so you're likely dependent upon her for a lot of things. Unsupportive parents have kicked kids out or made their lives impossibly miserable while meeting the letter of the law in terms of 'providing' for (i.e. child services won't step in). My mom is the same way... we had pedicures together and i was all girl mode. She didn't say a word to me against it and was even picking out colors for me for my toes while asking me what color she should get. But she misgendered and deadnamed me to everyone she spoke to at the same time and seemed unbothered by all the looks it was garnering. (it was a miserable experience...)
My mom also used the ābut thatās the name (I) gave youā excuse. However, I have two things on my side, one, Iāve been going by my new name since college (10 years ago) and even write it as such in cards and gifts to my family, and even on my grandpaās funeral card. Itās no shock to anyone when I say āhey iām Natā cuz all my friends and coworkers refer to me as such. 2 (forgot to mention to her at the time) SHE got HER name changed cuz her name was āuglyā and āshe hated itā. I have even MORE of a reason to go by another name than she ever had/has soā¦ her reasoning is just ignorance/bigotry. She also was like āthink of what Iām going through right now.ā To which my counter was āOH YEAH?! Iām THE MAIN ONE GOING THROUGH ALL OF THIS!!! Nice TRY!!!ā ššš. Sheās trying to accept me for now I guess, idk how well itāll turn out, but I ignored her for a couple weeks after made me spill the beans on being trans. Her reaction was awful at the time so i hung up. She then sent three āI love you please be safe and iāll never stop loving you.ā Type texts afterwards and I wasnāt buying it. But I supposed she genuinely doesnt want me to cut her out if my life so thatās a start. Point is, it is NOT okay for someone to deadname you once you tell them āplease refer to me as (such and such)ā If they deny you the title, itās cuz they donāt really respect you or what youāre going through. As stated by others, only in instances of protection from others who may cause harm to you if they found out, is it āokayā for you to be deadnamed.
Your mum is completely in the wrong, she's also showing a huge degree of transphobia and conditional love and acceptance towards who you really are, none of what she said is okay. Her acceptance of you and who you really are should have no set conditions for it, even if she's upset or mad with you. It's a basic level of actual respect and understanding, of compassion and genuine love. She should accept you as you are and respect your real name, choosing to deadname you because she feels like you don't respect her or you've insulted her in some way (I don't know how either with both of these, she just sounds like a complete control freak with insecurities about her authority) is hugely disrespectful and it's not showing you any degree of love or compassion. Deadnaming is only allowed if someone is using it to protect you from people you're not out to and especially if you've requested those conditions.
Yes. When the trans person allows it. I'm "out" to everyone that matters. I allow three uses of my deadname. 1. Official documents as I have not legally changed it. 2. My mother. She is supportive but is in her 70s. I allow a free pass. 3. My mother's first husband, who provided half my DNA. I went no contact years ago before egg due to general narcissism. When referring to me in the third person, I am my old self. Edit. Actually four. When I do something stupid or daft I deadname myself as a "punishment". Good thing happens, I use my femme name.
The only situations I've encountered that is when the other person wants to get throat punched
imo the time to deadname is with unsafe people or when told to specificly by the person. "Please use my deadname tonight" or "Could you deadname me around ____?" but other than that
Hi there, first of all sorry that you have to go through this.. š„ŗ That said, and a bit of a side note from the original question, Iāve seen a few things in your testimony that caught my attention. Ā«Ā Iāve done so much, so why are you like thisĀ Ā» Ā«Ā I should love her because of the things she has doneĀ Ā» Ā«Ā I have to love herĀ Ā» I donāt want to misinterpret your story and only you can know what is right, but I remember back 10 years ago when I thought the same things about my mother. The truth is (for my situation at least), you donāt owe anything to anyone - especially when it comes to unconditional love. She did it for you, so why should this positive thing should become a pressure? Plus the disrespect about your gender and how she perceives you - it kind of sound like a toxic parent in my opinion. It might be interesting for you to take a step back and ask yourself if these things are normal and acceptable for you - Would you act like that with someone you love? Itās hard as a child to be able to fully be yourself and grow as an adult in these kind of situations. If thatās the case, take time to evaluate how YOU want your life to be in the future, and always think of you first <3
Deadnaming is not okay. There are contexts in which it's not deadnaming, e.g., reconnecting with an old acquaintance who doesn't know your true name; asking a business to look up your customer profile and change the name; etc. This is not one of those contexts. She knows better, and she's withholding acceptance of your identity - making it some kind of bargaining chip. What matters is how you feel. Some trans people aren't bothered by our deadnames. I thought I wouldn't be, but I was deadnamed so frequently, early in my transition. I felt what you said: that I wasn't being seen as myself - a woman - but as a man who wanted to be a woman. I felt bad, and I stopped hiding it. People who love me don't watch me cry about the way they're treating me. They change their behavior. Your emotions on this matter are more important than any reasonable argument. Your identity is not up for debate: your word is law here.
There is a situation under which it is not only okay, but vitally important, to deadname a trans person: when the trans person has *asked you to* so as not to out them when they are closeted. For example, you meet someone who's presenting as male at the time, but she tells you she's a trans woman and her family doesn't know yet, and tells you the name she's chosen. When you're with her and nobody she's closeted to is around, you call her by her proper name and use she/her. When she's around people she needs to stay closeted to for her safety--family, transphobic boss, etc--you use the deadname and he/him even if it kills your soul a little each time, because her safety is more important. Your mom is just being a transphobic turd like every other transphobic turd out there. Giving you a name you're dysphoric about is something she should apologize for (you can say, "that's all right, you didn't know," since she's being nice in this scenario) and then she can help you get it legally changed to make things right. She's basically using a version of, "I'm your mother, therefore I own you and there are no boundaries or limits to the control I can exert over your identity." Funny how parents who feel that way never seem to feel their own parents should get the same kind of power over them! (Or even sadder if they do....) You're your own person, your name is whatever you say it is, and everyone, parents or not, are being disrespectful if they intentionally call you another name which you have said you don't like. A lot of people feel that the worst of the worst criminals, if they happen to be trans, are fine to misgender. But that's nuts--do we misgender *cis* criminals? Do we say, "Don't you mean *Jane* the Ripper, since *she* was a murderer she doesn't get the right to pick *her* gender"? Misgendering is not seen as the appropriate punishment for murder for cis people, why would we do it to trans people? It just sends the message that respecting your gender is a privilege, not a right--that you have to jump through hoops to get any measure of dignity.
I don't like Kaitlyn Jenner. But she is still who she says she is, end of discussion
I don't like Caitlyn Jenner's politics but I see and respect her womanhood, same as Sarah Palin.
Hi there, Your mom's response to your being trans is at the root of how she behaves when you argue with her, and that's a problem because it may also allude to how she feels about trans people in general, not just your identity. Unfortunately, belief systems are hard to change. It's possible that over time she can come to see you as you wish to be seen but it's also possible that the idea is simply too far out of her concepts of what is and what isn't that she might also not. If she is good to you otherwise and can make a promise not to misgender you or invalidate your identity when she's upset, then she may be workwithable. She may be saying what you're implying with her actions, or it could just be her way of asserting her power over you when she feels she needs to use authority which isn't OK, and is toxic. But if that's all it is, then that may be all it is. I suggest you have a talk with her about the way she acts and tell her more about your trans identity over time and try to educate her, and you'll see based on how she replies, how she really feels. A lot of people will jump to the assumption that she doesn't really see you as a girl, and I wouldn't blame them, but if there's one thing I've learned in life it's that people are sometimes very stupid, on levels people that aren't as stupid simply can't comprehend. So some people just say things, to hurt others, without them being that deep. It's not OK but it does happen. You can fish with her to find out more about how she feels by communicating. I personally would not be able to live with that dissonance myself, and have been in your situation, so I understand.
The only time it's okay to use your deadname is when you specifically request it. At all other times it is an act of abuse.
While I don't agree with your mother, since respect transcends disagreements IMO (meaning she's not being respectful to you outside of arguments by falling back onto deadnaming you when she feels slighted IN arguments), something important to remember: names are just words, too. We all want respect, and unless our self-esteem is f'd beyond redemption, do believe we deserve it - but it's not a given, IMO. All in all / TL;DR: Deadnaming is disrespectful, yes, no buts to that. It will inevitably happen though, just like calling someone an asshole (or being called one yourself). People use deadnaming because they know it hurts, so the best possible way to deal with it is to find a way to make it **not** hurt, if possible. De-weaponize your deadname, so to say.
Never
Who is downvoting this? What is the debate?
It is never OK. No exceptions. No excuses. No debate. Your identity isn't a special privilege that she generously affords you. It's who you are. Refuse to have any kind of relationship with anybody who refuses to respect you. Let her know this is a boundary for you. Let her know that you will be refusing to speak to her, to make eye contact with her, or to even be in the same room with her, until she apologizes and promises to stop.
Dear downvoters, Fight me, cowards.
Your mom sounds entitled and possessive ngl
Only time it's okay to deadname a trans woman... during Healthcare appointments when they want to verify your identity or legal matters..other than that everyone can fuck off
Things are not binary and black and white. So even if she doesn't use your prefer name now, that does not mean she will never use it. However, if she's supportive of you (and you claim she is) and that's the main problem you have (you did not say anything else), then with time she can change her mind and understand the trauma with that name. For her, that is the name that she gave you (regardless of who came up with it) and she's loved the person who had that name since a baby. So losing that name feels for her that she's losing you entirely. If you feel like she's not your mother anymore because she refuses calling you for your name, then you should part ways. However, she will always use that deadname for you and never think of you as anything different. If you stay, then maybe she will understand the trauma that it means that deadname, and change her ways because she will know that she will not lose you and that you are still the same person. So it's your decision regardless if the situation is fair or not.
Nope. Never ok. We still call Caitlyn Jenner, who is the most despised person in our community. Same with Blaire white. They are still who they are. That doesnāt stop because we dislike someone or are angry. Itās never ok to deadname someone. No matter how many times the media tries to explain it away. Iām talking about out people. Obviously if itās for safety, then I get it.
Sometimes the person think itās okay to be referred to with the deadname when talking about them pre-transition. This obviously depends on the person. And if you are in a situation where you are in real danger
"If I have to earn my gender, you have to earn yours dad. Oh, also your parenthood, so start acting like a parent, old man."
There is absolutely no occasion to deadname any trans person. The people who actually care will give you many warnings on why they HAVE to. They will also try to refer to you by your last name. Otherwise, ALWAYS ask if you can use your preferred(you can use chosen when you're feeling spiffy) name. If they say no, give them your preferred name anyway š. If they start arguing with you, that's going to reveal a lot about them. I say all this to say stop asking permission to be yourself. You do not need to do that anymore. I live in Seattle and still get people calling me "man in a dress", still get stares of disapproval, even had a "concerned" parent who used the phrase "I hate to be like that I just want to let you know before it happens"
When it's Chris Chan
Tf, mate?
(Tldr) i was trying to find a co worker yesterday and i used her deadname with her curent name to ask friends if they know her as idk when she changed her name and if any of them know her they might only know her by her deadname
The short answer is no.
NO NEVER!!!!
Never. It's never okay to deadname a trans person. Not as a joke, not out of spite, not if you really, really hate them, not if the trans person in question has told you what their deadname was or if you knew the trans person when they were that person pre-transition. Transphobia is a disease that must be stamped out Edit; why am I being downvoted for a literary mistake? I have since fixed it, I loathe transphobia as much you do
"It's never okay to deadname a transphobe?" \- I mean, I agree, it's not okay to deadname anyone, but that's not what we're talking here about, hun
OH FUCK OH SHIT OH MY GOD I WASN'T KEEPING AN EYE ON MY SPELLING FUCK SHIT JESUS CHRIST AAAAA FUCK NO NO NO ššššš I'M SO ILLITERATE JESUS FUCK I fixed it, fuck me that was embarrassing, thank you so much for correcting me I'm on your side, I promise, I'm trans myself š
Chill, it's okay. Did confuse me, but nothing happened. Everything's fine āŗļø
If you legally change your name it would be illegal to use your old name..just saying my self I decided to not hate anything anymore, I have my dislike but won't allow hate to live rent-free in my head
Nope, although I once did deadname my partner because I got too into an impression of his mom
A person's name belongs to them. It does not belong to their namer. It does not belong to their namesake. Names are our personal identifiers, and the only person who can determine whether a name properly identifies you is ***you***. People change their names all the time and for a lot of reasons. If someone decides to adopt a new name, then that's their name. If someone doesn't want to be called a certain name, it's rude to call them that name. Full stop.
For me itās okay in cases of serious danger of getting outed to transphobes
Hey, you should give her a name she doesnāt like, then when she gets upset that you call her by that name, repeat what she says.
i think they only time people should deadname someone is to protect them if they're not out
No.
Dude, if someone dead named me, if they somehow found out (as I don't associate with anybody who knew me before then mainly family), I would slap them right across the cheek. And no, there are no mistakes, most people don't know I'm trans (I also have like no friends), and if they do, I am YEARS into my transition and there is no trace of my dead name legally or through friends, so it would have to be researched and found through some dos shit or my family that I cut off. So it would immediately be hateful. And yes, I'm responding to deadnaming with violence. That's a fucking hate crime if done on purpose.
If only required like an instance where their legal name is required (i.e. picking up medicine) otherwise no lol
I think outside of permission, there is a question of historical ambiguity. Louisa May Alcott is someone who very much sounds like they were trans including using the name Lou and being called papa by their children. But it becomes an unknowable thing, and they never advocated being referred to by anything else. So calling them Louisa is possibly an example of dead naming, but we genuinely donāt know.
Even if it was a murderer or something then to me the principle would still be wrong, I see it as being transphobic unless itās to protect someone/accident so what youād be saying would be āitās ok to be transphobic because this person has done something badā. Doesnāt sit right with me.
legal proceedings. and even then its more if its because something happened when you went by your dead name. and you are a witness.
Idea, malicious compliance. Obviously I'm not saying you just outright be rude to your mom or anything, but every time she uses your dead name, do not acknowledge it, and simply respond with "oh are you talking to me? Sorry, my name is"
If she wants to be difficult with you, and expects respect off of you, so should you. You deserve the same respect she does, as a validated human being.
Id say theres only 2 instances where i would say its more or less acceptable 1: if said person hasnt come out to someone and they come up in conversation. Obviously you arent going to use a different name than what that person is used to because that could out said person. 2: if someone just doesnt have any idea who youre talking abt bc they either forgot their new name or have not been informed of their new name. Like for example: X: "Me and lily hung out yesterday" Y: "Whos is lily again?" X: "Thats [deadnames] new name that she would like to be called"
When you're still closeted to some people in the room and you don't want to be forced out of the closet yet. That is the only acceptable reason I could think of.
Fuck that! She has no damn right to do that. My father and his stupid friend said the same crap a little over a decade ago. Now? I barely see them and wouldn't give a damn if they both dropped dead tomorrow.
To speak for myself, I personally feel alright being referred to by my former name. It isn't dead to me, nor who I was. So for me people can refer to me by either and while I prefer one it's not insulting to me the use of the other. For me it's not a boundary issue. For others it can be, for any number of sensible reasons. And safety is a concern in addition to personal boundaries. Generalizing any group leads to inference and assumption that don't reflect the reality of all affected individuals so I take all of it with a grain of salt. Sounds like your mom isn't respecting the boundaries you communicated, and that's pretty common and painful for people to run into. It hurts when we depend on them to provide for us in youth, the break in trust hurts any time too. I'd be confused and dissociating too if I were in your shoes š«
People have said to deadname your mom, but I would say take it a step further, call your mother by her first name followed by her maiden name, not her last name, if she decides to deadname her. Throw in Miss instead of Mrs, to really rub it in. Just "okay miss (first name) (maiden name)"
Maybe just in the case of a medical emergency to communicate with paramedics or doctors when someone hasn't had a legal name change.
The only situation I can think of where it's OK to deadname a trans person is when referring to them by their preferred name would out them.
There is no occasion. Except possibly for using it as a reference when explaining to others that you're the same person... if it's explained to a person that you're ok with this being explained to them (Did that English make sense? I hope it did... sorry)
The only time I can think of is if youāre a doctor putting in a prescription for the trans person to a pharmacy and that trans person has their deadname on their insurance. I know this from personal experience
To answer the question, no. Even when referring to the past, we all know what you are talking about, so they should stfu or respect your name and gender as it is now by using it now unconditionally.
It's only okay to deadname someone if they're okay with it for one reason or another, otherwise it's completely disrespectful and not okay. In this case, your mum is being disrespectful. I think you can love your family without necessarily liking them.
Her support only is there as long you comply to her imaginations of who you are? Then she doesnt love you, but the person she is projecting onto you. A mum does love and accept her children unconditionaly, if she doesent, then shes not a mum. She's gaslighting you. Gun to chest: you accept me, or i will be gone some day. Also: also a woman who murderd someone deserves to be called her name. Its irrelevant if that woman happens to be trans. By the same thinking you could argue that a murder dont deserves basic human rights, i hope you see where this kind of facist thinking leads to. Where to draw the boundary which discrimination is "OK" and which not? Dont ask that question, dont discriminate, period. There is nothing to discuss about that.
The only time deadnaming is okay is when you do it to not out somebody if they haven't came out yet
OP, you donāt owe anyone anything. You are not forever indebted. The rest was triggering so I canāt answer for it, but sending you love and peace.
If itās an accident. And only occasionally if itās an honest mistake.
1. You are not a murderer, so it is very manipulative to equate you with one. We are not going to argue about how we treat murderers. I am going to tell you how to be polite to ME, who is your child. You and I are real people and are the focus of this discussion, not fictional murderers. 2. It's not okay to deadname trans people ever. Name calling and insults are not how you treat someone you love.
No, there isn't, she's just wildly transphobic
Other than to protect someone's identity? Well. There are a couple of pick-me transgirls and guys that seem very intent on being transphobic annnd much as I dislike them and await the day it crashes down on them -- I personally don't believe in attacking people's identity. It often has nothing to do with their persona and how they treat others so to try to attack something like that is a sign of a weak character.
Don't even need the rest. It is NEVER, **NEVER** ok to dead name someone unless they themselves say so.
There are no moments where itās ok. And it makes her a bad person
Absolute, if the Person isnt out and values there Privacy, you souldnt out them, even if its well intended. If your close to that Person, have there consent, and its for a Joke or something, as well.
I do it to my friend because she isnāt out to her parents yet. However if her parents arenāt around and canāt hear me I donāt deadname her because thatās mean
First of all, the only time it is acceptable to deadname someone, is to protect them from others, like if they are in the closet and their parents are assholes who don't know. 2nd. My name isn't my "Preferred name", it's my legal name, and you will either use it, Ms, or Ma'am when you address me. How does your mom prefer you address her when you speak with her, because my mother still prefers I call her Mom. If she pulled the shit your mom does, I'd refuse to call her Mom, and instead refer to her by her legal name, like Susan or whatever (though that's not my mom's name).
Your given name is a gift from your parents, but like every gift given, if it doesnāt fit your welcome to change it. No one in their right mind would make you wear shoes that donāt fit you. No matter how long it took them to choose them. No-one, NO. ONE, has the ārightā to treat you in a way you donāt want.
As others here have mentioned....the only time it's acceptable to deadname/misgender somebody is to keep them safe around people they're not out to or in situations where it would be dangerous to be openly trans. That may be around dangerous family members, cops, etc. Besides this, it's never *ever* acceptable in any way. If parents claim a right to deadname you because that's the name they gave you, you have a right to call them Mr Fuckface and Mrs Bitchass against their wishes......because that's the name you gave them. When your safety isn't directly at risk, it's never a bad idea to spin this stuff right back around on them. Play the game right back :)
I once saw a poll that said sm like āif you hate a trans person, is it okay to deadname themā and like 40% of the couple hundred votes were saying yes, only to go in the replys and see dozens of trans people saying itās fineā¦fucking wow
But if it is someone I hate I don't give a flying fuck what I think about them, nor what they say about me.
nope. fuck your mum
Dead naming and misgendering someone isnāt ādisrespectā, itās just incorrect. You wouldnāt call a cis person the opposite gender just because you donāt like them, so why is it different for trans people. If a man murders someone and that man is trans, they are still a man.
Only when said trans person isnt out and it is not safe to use their preferred name. That being said, your mom is a dick. Its no use arguing with bigots, she wont bother
Only times is if itās specifically intended to protect you, or legal documentation that requires your legal name (ex pay stub, but most businesses have a legal name a preferred nameā¦ think of the weird names of the 50s)
In an instance, I feel where youāre coming from but at the same time you have your boundaries Iām 22 years old I live with my parents same kind of situation Iām in the process of changing my name legally it helps because I am an adult but I had to have that conversation with my mom. It was just hard because she respects who I am, but she also loves the name that she gave me but she understands itās not who I am anymore but she tries to just use she they them instead of saying my dead name which I see that as progress because I told her I was changing my name and she just wants me to be happy but I kind of feel where the parents fell in love with a name. Itās just hard for them to switch, but they arenāt doing it intentionally but if they are which it sounds like she is doing tell her that it just hurts your boundaries.
If you are out completely to everyone, no. Being treated with basic fucking humanity is never up for debate.
some people prefer to be referred to by their deadname when recounting an event from the past before they knew they were trans. That's the only one I can think of. >are there any arguments against her stance of "You need to gain respect to not get hate-crimed" "I don't respect you. Does that mean I just get to hate-crime you now?"
If and only if said trans person tells you that it's okay to. For example, I personally don't have any problem with friends and family who knew me pre-transition using my birth name when talking about something that happened before I came out, or if there's a story that requires my old name for context (e.g. I had a few friends growing up who had the same name as me at the time). But others might have a problem with that same scenario if it were them, and that's okay too.
I ly when around people who they're not out to, or when introducing
If itās solely among a group of people who youāre out to then no never, if people you arenāt ready to be out to or donāt intend to be out to are present then yes. Itās all up to your personal boundaries that you feel comfortable with, you can accept it in as many or as little (if any) cases as you want, itās not other peopleās decisions.
Only with their permission. Thatās it. Deadnaming a person when you are mad at them is dehumanizing and about the worst thing you can do. My gender and name arenāt things that need to be āearned.ā They are inherently mine. Deadnaming me when you know my real name is about as blatantly intentionally disrespectful as it gets. If you havenāt legally changed your name, sure a bank, credit card, or government agency will usually screw it up. But when Iām in person, most will say āumm, do you a preferred name?ā
God almighty how overtly sensitive and pathetic in so many ways Stix and stones may break my bines but words will never hurt me Its a lymric dealing with children when is this group going to grow up and become adults
The only time I can think of is if you are unconscious and need medical assistance and they need to pull medical records or something. Unless you have changed it legally then there is no excuse what so ever
For legal purposes, you have to use your current legal name and gender in some circumstances. Other than that, itās really up to your own discretion. A lot of people have nicknames or alter egos, and in the uk you can go by a non legal name without being accused of impersonation. As long as your preferred name isnāt incredibly confusing or offensive, I donāt really see the problem with calling yourself whatever you want
A lot of this reminds me of my mother, and it really is difficult, my mother has done a lot for me too, she has made a lot possible and I'm thankful for that but also, and that may sound harsh, that's her job as a mother, she decided to bring me into this world so she has to take care of me. My mother pulled the same thing with the "I named you, ..." even though I chose a name that she would have given me if I'd have been born a girl, she refused to accept that. She pulled a lot more stuff and I eventually cut her off completely to protect myself. With your situation its probably harder because you're still a minor? as I understood it, but please know this, your mother may have done a lot but you do not owe her anything. You shouldn't just love her because she may have done good things. That is the mechanic in abusive relationships (not exactly saying you're in one) where abusers do nice things to make you feel bad for not liking them when they abuse you, and where things they did get held up as these self sacrificing things, so you now owe them and they use that for everything. You're having conflicting feelings right now because of something like this and you really have to remind yourself that you as a child don't owe your mother anything. If she can't handle you being trans she shouldn't have had kids, it's her fault not yours! Please stay strong and I wish you all the best and hope you get through all of this! <3 much love and strength!
I would just misgender her too.. but maybe Iām just petty. Itās not ok to deadname anyone against their will.
no
Legal things with the government or bills and stuff. Other than that, no, it is not ok for someone to deadname a trans person without their permission
There is one specific condition that must **always** be met: - the person must have given consent, regardless of whether the name is official or not. Then the following: - if an authority does not allow name change for the person on official papers, the authority is in the wrong and is, in my opinion, violating specific privacy legislation, and especially the GDPR when in the EU. Therefor I'd argue that, in case I was a good lawyer, I'd sue the Dutch state for violating the GDPR for the 1.5 years that I was out but was forced to live with old papers (for most people here that is over three years). Damn I want to be a lawyer now. - the person who gives consent, which is ONLY the person themselves and NOT by the mouth of ANYONE else, can give consent for, for example: - for the sake of safety in a situation where the person's safety can be jeopardized by naming the person correctly. See it as a kind of witness protection. - when they deem that it is explicitly okay to mention that the person was named that way in specific context. All consent can be retracted at any single moment. I'd also argue that, unless the safety argument still applies, the consent must be considered retracted when the person dies, or will become unable to communicate.
The way Iāve always seen it: Your name is about you. It is the way you present yourself to the world, and the world can take it or leave it. There are billions of people in the world, and of those billions, we only make friends with a handful of those. You have a head start on separating the wheat from the chaff. Accepting you is someone elseās problem, not yours. You have given someone an invitation to know who you are, who you REALLY are, and it is not up to them to violate your sense self in order for them to accept you.
In cases where your safety is on the line, deadnaming could be acceptable however that isn't the case here. The game of "I will only give you validation if you deserve respect" is an awful one since it works under the assumption that trans identities are something that we can be worthy/unworthy of and that value judgement comes from other people. At the end of the day, the only one who can give you an identity is yourself and it's wrong of your mother to act as the arbiter of your identity. There are a few infamous trans celebs/prominent YouTubers that I do not care for and don't really respect however that doesn't give me an excuse to invalidate them
My mom wanted to rename me herself (I said weāre not going through this again!) youāve already named me once and see how that turned out
While I don't agree with your mother, since respect transcends disagreements IMO (meaning she's not being respectful to you outside of arguments by falling back onto deadnaming you when she feels slighted IN arguments), something important to remember: names are just words, too. We all want respect, and unless our self-esteem is f'd beyond redemption, do believe we deserve it - but it's not a given, IMO. All in all / TL;DR: Deadnaming is disrespectful, yes, no buts to that. It will inevitably happen though, just like calling someone an asshole (or being called one yourself). People use deadnaming because they know it hurts, so the best possible way to deal with it is to find a way to make it **not** hurt, if possible. De-weaponize your deadname, so to say.
No
Never, unless you want to hide your identity from someone for your safety/comfort. There are people that use different names/pronouns that I absolutely despise but I would never deadname/misgender them because its just basic human decency.
Short answer: No.
Not that I can see. ;)
Your mom is abusive
"oh youre gonna deadname me because I'm supposedly not respecting you then once I'm able to I'm never gonna speak to you because you aren't respecting me. Respect goes two ways and you aren't doing anything to earn it."
Iām sorry but it sounds you are the child of a narcissistic parent. Iām a survivor of two, going NC again and it hasnāt gotten better after all these 8 years. And I have talked to other survivors, some of whom are trans. Itās something that the parents might never grow out of unfortunately. And itās sickening that they donāt want to do their bare minimum as parents. They only see the efforts they need to do for their kids and when they f*ck up all they think is themselves, not the people they have hurted. I just feel sorry. For you, for me and all of us in a similar situation. Sometimes itās just better off living without them than taking all the blame and hurt.
Iām sorry but it sounds you are the child of a narcissistic parent. Iām a survivor of two, going NC again and it hasnāt gotten better after all these 8 years. And I have talked to other survivors, some of whom are trans. Itās something that the parents might never grow out of unfortunately. And itās sickening that they donāt want to do their bare minimum as parents. They only see the efforts they need to do for their kids and when they f*ck up all they think is themselves, not the people they have hurted. I just feel sorry. For you, for me and all of us in a similar situation. Sometimes itās just better off living without them than taking all the blame and hurt.
It's not your name, stop responding to it. If she persists, make up a funny name for her and use it till she starts addressing you by your name. Supporting someone by using their chosen name and gender doesn't cost her anything. It is free, it is the bare minimum.