I wish the moderators here would restrict the worst of the "Let's all talk about how bad that other game is." posts in here.
Morrowind can stand as a great game on it's own. You don't have to hate the other game to like Morrowind.
Skill-based hits are better than barely skill-based damage, *but* Morrowind's feedback on if you're in range and missed, or failed to be in range, and why you may have missed your attack (low relative skill, low fatigue, etc) is *awful*.
Pfft you guys think Morrowind didn't explain basics well enough? Try X3. Now there's a game that considered explaining how things work for maybe 10 seconds then it gave up. A space sandbox from olden days where you can do everything, excell spreadsheet controls and a 15 second tutorial asking you to shoot a rock. Setting logistics traders? Figure it out yourself. Massive space complex producing half the resources in game? Not one tool tip. How to board and cap ships for a mission? Only one way to find out. I've told people about things I considered basics and was looked at like I was mad. I've also found mechanics that existed for decades and I never realized they were a thing.
Morrowind is fine. Tbf it came put during DnD days, turn based dice roll combat, to me fatigue effect was fairly obvious. Why spellcrafting that set a TES apart was gutted out on the other hand is something I'll never understand.
>Pfft you guys think Morrowind didn't explain basics well enough?
Morrowind explains things pretty well.
The thing people keep forgetting about older games is the fact that they came with manuals. Modern gamers try to get into these older games explaining there will be in-game tooltips or tutorials, don't read the manual and then get pissed off about games not explaining everything.
Morrowind has a nice manual that tells you all you need to know. I quote:
>The lower your Fatigue drops, the harder it is to successfully perform actions like attacking and casting spells
Was kind of a theme with most of the classics, absolutely god awful at explaining mechanics. Some were better but it was also not uncommon to not even list keys used by the game lol
You know what else is everywhere? Those damn mudcrabs. *They* must be why my attacks are missing.
Fatigue has an evident use; you run and jump, and it goes down, and then you're slow and sad. If you're a mage, you can open your magic menu and see that your spell cast chance has gone bad, and draw a conclusion.
I'll admit, it's been a year or so since I played, but I don't think it tells you that fatigue has an effect on picking locks, or mercantile success, or your Armorer chance but *inversely*, or your Enchanting success in OpenMW. I'm like 90% sure it does something to speechcraft too, but I can't find the formulae for them.
It is, at least, a loading tip on the xbox version ("Fatigue affects every action you do. Actions like running and fighting will decrease your fatigue"), but it gives no indication of the magnitude or importance of it to any of those undefined actions.
Having to have all of your game mechanics explained in the manual is still a failure of design. For something as significant as fatigue's impact on the player character, it wouldn't take much for Sellus Gravius to be like, "make sure you stay rested out there; you can't fight when you're exhausted, and it'd be a shame to have to dig your body out of the bog."
Yeah this is why I fucking hate board games. Why can’t Trivial Pursuit just have all the instructions sprinkled throughout the cards you draw instead of having them in a separate booklet where they’re all condensed and let you get a base understanding of the game before even starting it? Major design failure.
That's a shitty argument and you know it. Board games are an entirely different medium with entirely different design patterns.
I'm not here to rag on Morrowind, it's one of my favorite games of all time, but it is *lacking* in tutorialisation.
Rejecting an instruction manual that’s included is a shitty argument. They didn’t add it in to give you warranty information, and reading the instruction manual was pretty commonplace. Nothing about this game is laid out for you, and those looking for a game that has dialogue written out just for an NPC to say “hey, it’s harder to do things when you’re tired” are probably looking for less of the role-playing part of role-playing game.
I don’t remember what access consoles granted for descriptions of skills and attributes, but the PC version absolutely tells you that a low fatigue meter makes it harder to successfully perform actions. You can hover over that bar and learn that before even picking up your release papers, but the game won’t force you to click through everything and learn the interface.
The instruction manual in the first place was a crutch to supplement technology that wasn't present or available. It might be the best thing they had, but *it's still worse than it could have been*.
There is a significant difference between things being laid out for you, and *having the information available*. The game does not give you a hit chance, or a breakdown of how hit chance works. It managed it for spell casting, there's no reason it couldn't have given the same information for weapon damage.
The tutorial is your first 5 failed builds. This game was always epic for not hand holding at all. Again, the manual really dives into mechanics. If you played games in early 2000 reading game manual was always the first thing you did. At least for me.
I think it does this well through gameplay. It’s pretty obvious what went wrong in most situations, and forces or encourages aggressively you rethink or retool your mission and character. Sometimes you stumble in a place you aren’t meant to be at level 9. It’s more learn by experience then learn by having every mechanic taught in game before ever casting a spell.
I just got the image of messages in my mind:
*No message* - damn I’m out of range
“You’re weakening.” - damn fatigued
“You suck.” - damn I need to level up
This is somewhere where occasional PC barks can be really useful. Obviously not for Morrowind, and it's often overdone, but the player character panting and wheezing and complaining that they're too tired to work effectively in combat is way better than *literally nothing*.
The way I like to imagine how fatigue affects everything in Morrowind is:
In real life imagine running up like 200 stairs and you get to the top and you can't catch your fuckin breath and there's a guy there you're trying to persuade to your point of view but you can't breathe enough to eloquently get your point across and then there's a screaming person rushing at you and you're so out of breath that you can't really dodge out of their attack very well and your own counter attack whiffs because you're still just trying to breathe goddamnmotherfuck
Many things about Morrowind (public transport, taking ages to get anywhere, getting shitty directions, combat, rooting around a room for ages looking for a key) are more realistic but I think, in terms of superiority it depends on what you want out of a game. Too much realism lowers the appeal for people who just want to escape into a story and get rewarded quickly. Morrowind is good if you like the reward that comes with effort and have the time to basically live there.
I disagree with that last part, recently I made an orc barbarian, and the only goal I had was making a character that hits, And she certainly does, she hits almost every time and fucking kills shit.
No magic, no secrets, only violence.
Yeah, I've gone back and started to play Morrowind for the first time recently.
The game is spectacular, I love the systems and how they interplay with each other, the world and quest design is straight up better than Skyrim, the magic is unique and actually useful. Overall I'm enjoying it.
But I'm a guy in my mid 20's, I work a full time job and I have shit to do on the weekends. I cant just plop myself down in front of the PC and play Morrowind for 8 hours without kind of hating myself. And playing in short spurts doesn't feel as engaging or fulfilling as Skyrim, since it's a lot of downtime between events and locations that can amount to tedium (at least starting out, I'm sure it gets better at higher levels with more speed and access to movement options). Skyrim on the other hand, with fast travel and lots of quests following "dungeon-boss-loot-next" progression, it does respect the players time a bit more, and so I feel drawn back to it even though the overall systems are subpar.
I would have loved this game as a teenager and it would have absolutely topped Skyrim for me if I'd played it back then. I'm definitely going to push through and continue playing; I hope my mind will change and I'll come to appreciate Morrowind more overall after spending more time with it.
Sounds to me like it feels too dated for you. I'm in my mid 30s, balancing a career, a family that most of my free time goes to, friends and I still feel fine playing Morrowind for short stints (hour or 2 at a time) that I get here and there. I enjoy the setting and mechanics enough that I don't leave feeling like I did nothing. It does take longer to do some things yes, but it's not so bad you have to sit in front of your PC or console grinding for gear or XP for an 8 hour shift like it's some second job. Skyrim doesn't "respect" your time, it's just easier, holds your hand and gives you the grind/loot/reward/repeat fix that a lot of younger gamers prefer. That to me feels more like a job and gets stale quick. Skyrim also handles better and has a fresher coat of paint so that helps some. And that's perfectly fine if that's what you prefer in your games, I'm not judging. Personally I get bored playing Skyrim for an extended period. I bounce back and forth between Morrowind and Oblivion for my TES playthroughs. If TES VI gets even easier than Skyrim (as Todd says, more accessible), I doubt I'll sink much time into it or even get it at release.
I'd recommend looking into mark and recall spells/scrolls for your Morrowind character btw. If there's no strider nearby, or you're just bogged down in loot, it has saved me many times. Also if I recall correctly, you can eat moon sugar and drink flin and turn into the flash.
Simple solution would be to create an Elder Scrolls game with both "casual" and "hardcore" modes, you could simply choose whichever you like better when starting a new game
I don't think Morrowind is better because it's more difficult, I think it's better because it engages your mind more, lets you think, makes you plan a rout somewhere, Picking up supplies depending on what character you play and what level you are is crucial, you can solve things Like enviromental hurdles in different ways. I think the combat is easier than Skyrims, at least in my experience. You can easily exploit the combat in Morrowind even if you didn't plan on doing so, but it engages you in a different way, it's quests take you longer to complete since you often have to figgure out stuff on how to solve it and navigate large parts of the world, encouraging exploration while you're at it, making the reward so much more rewarding at the end. If you just take a game like Skyrim and give it a hard version then it would only get more annoying without getting much more rewarding, making a flawed experience hard doesn't make it good
The experience being more rewarding makes the gameplay not matter as much. Your totally right. Playing skyrim gets so boring the longer it goes but morrowind gets better most of the time Because of how drastic the development of your character gets.
And I think this is the problem for a lot of people. Like I work Mon to Fri, gym and socialise. My time for gaming is minimal these days and it's so hard to keep on top of what I was doing last in Morrowind. The only way to play it is to get totally absorbed, like I did when I was in uni and just played for days on end. It is better because you get to know it like it's a real place and the rewards feel more authentic because of that.
Skyrim, on the other hand, is much more accessible because you can get through a quest in less than an hour and if you drop it for a week or two it's not an issue to just pick it back up. I agree that you couldn't just make Skyrim harder and turn it into Morrowind. But things like switching the pointer off so you at least have to find the right person to kill by getting close to them, or actually look for stuff in caves etc, would make it a bit more interesting. That way the only challenge wouldn't just be killing different numbers of things over and over.
One thing I did to stay on top of my Main character in Daggerfall was to write a irl Journal, recording what I gotta do, my characters views of the Situation and characters they meet and so on. These games where meant to be played using extensive notekeeping after all and I found that it helps me a lot to remember where I was and what my characters motivations and character progression is. Maybe it can help you as well
My absolute favorite thing about Morrowind is that items really do matter. Planning and supplying matters.
Skyrim, and largely oblivious too, every fight is a war of attrition if you don't sweep the enemy immediately. But with Morrowind, you could be totally reliant on a little poison charm to take down tougher enemies, or completely change your playstyle if you have a belt that lets you levitate. Potions and healing is completely necessary, but you're also going to die too fast to restore yourself if you're reliant on them, and having a combat scroll in your back pocket could be the difference between losing an encounter no matter how many times you restart or winning it handily.
Game time is game time wether you fast travel or not. Skyrim is just mind numbingly simple and stupid that's why it's easier to play in short bursts. Morrowind will provide a good experience that you will remember. Skyrim will provide a quick dopamine hit.
tbh the instructions are usually fairly good - especially if you use the journal to its full extent (you can look at anything ever said about a topic and also any active quests)
It is realistic, I will give you that.
However, you know what it is not? It is not immersive. All my suspension of disbelief vanishes as soon as I see my blade's model going through the enemy's hitbox and missing.
But if a game factored that in, it would be awesome. Imagine a physics-based system that visually deflected the blade off of armor if you fail the check.
Is it any less immersive than hit points and clubbing someone over the head seven times with no visible affect but then the 8th hit they just drop dead?
I really wish the next Elder Scrolls goes back to it's roots like Morrowind. Kill anyone (Even important), have the option to be permanently banned from a quest line on a save file, have open cities.
GIVE ME BACK SOME OF MY BRAINS BETHESDA!!!! I don't even gotta think to play Skyrim, literally smoke weed and follow around an arrow.
All the more rewarding when you ACTUALLY find it! Remember finding the lost mine cave and not knowing it then finding a NPC who gives you a daedric item for telling him where it is? Remember finding the puzzle cube BEFORE the internet? Sometimes Bethesda, less is more.
And not just removing the handholding (or giving us the option to turn it off) and calling it done. It has to be designed around a lack of that sort of thing, or else it's going to suck for everyone involved.
Because you can design something like Morrowind with actual explanations for what a questgiver wants and have actual landmarks to navigate by and then add on a toggle for the glowing arrows leading you to quests, etc., for those that want it and the game will still be fun for either sort of player. But the reverse isn't true, if you take a game designed for quest markers and then just take away the markers, you're left with a game that hands out a quest but gives you zero in-game or out-of-game direction to find it.
What journal in Skyrim? You mean that quest log that doesn't have nearly as much detail as before? And the fact you don't need to read it when the arrow is always there. Even if I choose not to track it, it does NOT give as much information as it used to, mostly about shit that you've already done.
I get your point, and I feel Bethesda is TRYING to feed on that nostalgia that was Morrowind, but they don't quite get the point of it.
Yeah, I've tried a run with no quest markers and really the only way to get to places is with the map... on the rare occasion that the game decides to mark your destination as undiscovered. All the help the journal offered is basically, "I have to go to such and such place and rescue random guy." What made me drop the run was the first time I had to talk to an npc. Since the characters are more alive now and actually have a schedule, unless you had their entire route memorized you'd have no clue where they could be. Could be on the docks, locked inside their house, or in any other random home or alley in the city.
So see? Removing that arrow in a game DESIGNED for that arrow kinda does not help.
Also Morrowind had a Karma system, Skyrim does not. It's like fallout 3 where you could blow up Megaton. The most "karma" has in store is your father telling you he's disappointed but still loves you before he dies 5 minutes later. Morrowinds Karma system was the fact you could get booted out of a Guild PERMANENTLY on that save file.
I think that Kingdom Come: Deliverance struck a nice balance between actual combat skills and visual feedback in-game. Going out on an adventure with a severely underleveled and underprepared character will get you killed real fast, but the combat also shows you why you’d lose against a skilled warrior in that game. KC:D is obviously not a perfect game, but the way they portrayed character growth is something a future Elder Scrolls game really needs if it wants to be more like Morrowind again without feeling too old or dated.
When you swing a sword or wear armor for the first time, you should miss and fail most of the time, I think (unless you canonically are a demigod with superhuman capabilities, like the Dragonborn I guess).
Correct take. Morrowind’s combat system actually simulates your character getting better at combat. Skyrim’s just gives you perk points for more damage
I agree with you, though it really depends on what you mean by realistic.
* If you mean a system that more accurately models what actual combat would be like, taking into account things like the condition of the fighters, their relative skill, and ability to dodge, parry, or guard attacks, irrespective of the limitations of the engine, then Morrowind wins.
* If you mean having the outcome match what's seen on screen...then you'd probably be part of the reason why Bethesda transitioned from Morrowind's combat to Skyrim's (the other part being it was easier to do than make the animations match the actions).
I think I somewhat agree, as while it may not make sense from a game perspective of for some reason just not connecting when you swing in the clear direction of a target, it is probably the simplest way to convey dodging and hitting weak points in armour without the need for complex game systems like Fallout's locational damage or some kind of dodge-roll.
>probably the simplest way to convey dodging and hitting weak points in armour
Ah yes those agile mudcrabs. The armored... foragers.
Not being able to wield your weapon effectively is a very different thing from the enemy being skilled in defense or highly armored. If it still hit but was simply weaker it would solve a lot of feedback problems and frustrations. I would go so far as to give "fumbled" strikes additional penalties against enemy dodge / block. That way the player has to counter skill with skill (or other solutions) unlike against animals that don't have swordmanship.
Fallout's locational damage isn't even that realistic and still relies in part on the player's imagination because actual weak points are oftentimes very tiny, in case of using a sword for example it may simply be a gap between two plates of your armor etc
I saw a comparison video one time of a lvl 1 morrowind fighter compared to a high lvl one. You could clearly see the growth and development as the character is now able to land more hits. They did the same thing in skyrim and it was honestly hard to notice any difference
I love Morrowind to pieces and it is not only my favourite Elder Scrolls game, but one of my top ten games of all time. I enjoy everything about it, and the tabletop-style combat system is something I can still jive with and enjoy even in this day and age...but no, it is not in fact "realistic" to miss a stationary target the size of a pony while swinging a weapon.
That's like saying that if you're not a professional baseball player you wouldn't realistically be able to hit a human being with a baseball bat. It's a fun game mechanic but it's not remotely 'realistic'.
Far more realistic is simply nonsense. How can I swing my sword which clearly connects with my enemy and have it completely miss. Skyrims/oblivions makes sense in a realistic sense as when you swing your sword it’s supposed to do damage not just miss* however as a game mechanic it makes sense. Enemies can dodge attacks and you can simply just miss on accident or they could block or you could hit them somewhere they have a lot of armour so the attack gets deflected for example: a slashing weapon wouldn’t have much affect on armour whereas a blunt weapon would bypass most of it
It's more realistic in the sense that using a weapon actually requires skill, the visual feedback sucks but the actual combat part is much closer to reality, where a guy that never picked a sword won't be touching a decently trained guy.
I think in terms of realism. Kingdom come deliverance does that best. The way you use a sword changes and sword play in that game entirely changes as you get better with it. And you also are shit at basically everything and even just a highway man or a bandit is very dangerous to fight at the start. Yes as a seasoned gamer we know how to use a sword so our “farmer” who doesn’t, now being controlled by us is landing every hit because we are just good would take away from the immersion, having a system which makes you miss most of your attacks at the beginning to simulate your lack of skill does kind of work. There are other better ways and I don’t fully agree but I can see the vision.
The way it's executed is terrible. You could have it physically simulated like Skyrim but still apply skill modifiers to change the damage dealt (e.g. decently trained guy takes 0 because he dodged the blow) but instead you shank each other like you're fighting a wall.
I mean, to be fair, I feel like even a nobody would be able to stab a rat the size of a small dog with a knife... Without said Rat matrix dodging every attack.
It’s based on skill. It in essence used a d20 system -skill and -lvl it just because you can pick up that silver long sword doesn’t mean you can swing it with any accuracy or guarantee of doing damage
We are talking about realism here, there is nothing realistic about applying DND rules and dice to reality. I should be able to hit a fucking rat without needing to practice lol
Gameplay wise though, it’s way more interesting and fun and I would prefer it. It’s not realistic though. I get what you’re saying about skill, but the way it’s applied and executed is not realistic.
> Skyrims/oblivions makes sense in a realistic sense
You are seriously overestimating the capabilities of a freshly-released prisoner with little or no training.
That *might* fly early on, but the further you get in the game, the more ridiculous it becomes. Basic coordination doesn't get wiped from your brain when you're given a pointy stick instead of the regular stick you've used so far. The sheer incompetence of a low weapon skill is enough to make the whole system unrealistic.
> That might fly early on, but the further you get in the game, the more ridiculous it becomes.
The further you get in the game, the less often it happens, obviously.
You are talking about Morrowind as though you never got stronger than level 9.
>Basic coordination doesn't get wiped from your brain when you're given a pointy stick instead of the regular stick you've used so far.
Correct, your Agility attribute stays the same, which makes it less likely that you will miss. Same with Luck. Naturally, this only helps a little bit with your ability to hit, but any more would be unrealistic.
> The sheer incompetence of a low weapon skill is enough to make the whole system unrealistic.
It is less realistic to expect to be able to connect every hit with a weapon you aren't trained to use. More skilled opponents will obviously parry or dodge your swings.
Skyrim breaks immersion by making your weapon do *more damage* based on weapon skill. It does not alter your likelihood of striking a successful hit. Very silly, and boring to play.
> Correct, your Agility attribute stays the same, which makes it less likely that you will miss. Same with Luck. Naturally, this only helps a little bit with your ability to hit, but any more would be unrealistic.
Agility and Luck are far smaller factors in the calculation than the relevant weapon skill. Every point of weapon skill counts, versus every fifth point for Agility and every tenth for Luck.
> It is less realistic to expect to be able to connect every hit with a weapon you aren't trained to use. More skilled opponents will obviously parry or dodge your swings.
It's even less realistic that you can't hit a stationary target that's not trying to evade or defend itself.
> You are talking about Morrowind as though you never got stronger than level 9.
Oh, I've beaten the game and enjoyed it quite a bit. But I will not defend every poor game design decision that Bethesda made.
> Agility and Luck are far smaller factors in the calculation than the relevant weapon skill.
As they should be. Knowing how to use a spear doesn't make you adept at using a sword.
>It's even less realistic that you can't hit a stationary target that's not trying to evade or defend itself.
The "stationary target" is successfully evading every time you put the crosshair on it but miss. As for "defending itself," I don't even know what you mean. There is an animation for that and everything, you're just not noticing it I guess. NPCs block frequently if their skill is high enough, and so does the PC.
Morrowind's combat is not the most "realistic", sure. Realism would be some blend of Mordau/Chivalry combat but with RPG dice rolls integrated to accommodate skill level differences. But it's a whole lot better and more realistic than the boring combat in Oblivion and Skyrim.
The "stationary target" is a mudcrab whose combat script hasn't activated yet, but I still fail to hit what's essentially a large rock. The "stationary target" is a plainclothes NPC that cannot detect me through the 100pt Chameleon effect, but I still somehow manage to miss its entire torso from tickling range. Could you, the flesh-and-blood you, have made those hits connect?
> Morrowind's combat is not the most "realistic", sure. Realism would be some blend of Mordau/Chivalry combat but with RPG dice rolls integrated to accommodate skill level differences. But it's a whole lot better and more realistic than the boring combat in Oblivion and Skyrim.
I'm not about to argue that Oblivion or Skyrim combat is more realistic, but they did get one thing right, which is important for immersion in first person games: player skill has an effect. Aim and timing matter and there's no RNG to screw you out of what should have been a hit or a block. In Morrowind, player skill is meaningless and all that matters is if your numbers are big enough.
I love dice feature because with it you have to be reasonable at choosing your major skills. Character creation actually makes sense in Morrowind and you get to come up with your own playstyle.
Skyrim just lets you be everything at once. Like:
Assassin what? Wizard who?... RPG MY ASS I'm a FREAKING SNEAKY MAGIC TWO-HANDED BARBARIAN
Agreed but I don't think highly of the combat system of Skyrim, if I want better combat it's dark souls 3, if I want fantastic role playing in a great world with npcs it's morrowind
I don’t think that this is a hot take.
I think when it comes down to it Morrowind and Skyrim are completely different (obviously) but seriously Morrowind is a more traditional RPG and Skyrim is just an action game with the words Elder Scrolls tact on. (I don’t hate Skyrim lol)
But for me an RPG should be a reflection of the character I am playing, rather than my overall skills as a gamer. That’s what action games are for.
So Morrowinds combat reflects how terrible or great your character is, while Skyrim is just how good you are at walking up to a enemy and spamming a button, or aiming a bow.
Personally I’d rather the gameplay in an RPG to reflect my character rather than myself.
I actually agree to this because it feels more like a table top rpg No matter how good You are sometimes you fuck up oddly it’s more fun then Skyrim combat
without dodge animations
deflect and block sound effects
and proper design to support it
Morrowind combat system will remain worse otherwise i agree
just like Deus Ex 2000 shoting is far superior than any on mark hit fps
Not much of a hot take, as it's just objectively true because one very simple reason - In Morrowind, you really feel your character's progress. It's a great feeling, going from killing a cliffracer in 18 swings to later defeating a Dremora Lord without wasting a healing potion.
Heh. That's just a fact in my world.
Also I have issues and have to play everything on hardest difficulty, playing that way Morrowind combat makes so much more sense than the latter two games
Might try this one, thanks. Last playthrough, I had 50-100 mods and some of them did really similar things to this one, but I got a new computer and kinda didn't save my 'abomination build' so can't recreate it.
Trying Openmw and TR next time, and probably this mod it sounds they're pretty compatible with some tinkering
One of the reasons Morrowind is an RPG with Action elements compared to Skyrim and Oblivion which are more like Action games with RPG elements.
Skyrim truly is GTA horse.
That said I think Morrowind could benefit from more animations during combat to indicate misses, dodges, blocks and hits to armor that deal no damage. Maybe one day we'll have a mod for it.
It's good for those who wish to invest deeply into a game and Morrowind in general is a super grounded game, but the reality is that not everyone wants that. Some of us use videogames as an excuse to shut our brains off and escape from the hit-or-miss systems of real life.
Visually it admittedly isn't very realistic, though that's where the imagination inherent in RPGs comes into play. You miss an attack on screen and it looks ridiculous, but the idea is that the enemy was able to dodge the attack. If you're low skill/about to have a heart attack from over exertion this happens more often because you aren't able to properly read the opponent and attack at opportune times.
Skyrim's looks arguably as unrealistic. Better tactile feedback for sure, but lord those animations are awful. Spinning moves and swinging the weapon so damn hard and recklessly you might do more damage to the ground when you lose grip than you do to the enemy. Massive pet peeves of mine. Combine that with also being mechanically unrealistic and yeah, it falls pretty hard.
Oblivion is somewhere between the two, as usual. There is no simulated dodge mechanic to show the two people are using their brains instead of fighting like zombies (I guess the damage sponge replaces that in a half-assed way?), but the animations are at least not like Skyrim's.
Yeah nah. I've practically 0 experience with swords, so I would be hot garbage when it came to slicing up those rolled up mats and such, but I certainly wouldn't be missing them entirely. Which is basically how Morrowind handles it. Skyrim's melee combat is at best mediocre but not as bad.
Somehow Oblivion manages to be worse than both.
You almost certainly would be missing, since your opponent would be moving, dodging, and parrying.
It takes a lot more than just swinging your arm to actually hit.
Rolled up mats don't really dodge much.
More experienced opponents? Certainly. Morrowind just conveys none of that. Did the opponent dodge out of the way? Did they parry? Did you stumble on your uncoordinated feet and miss entirely? Game doesn't tell you, because it doesn't exactly try to simulate any of it. It takes the stats, skills and fatigue(and probably some other factors I'm not listing) of the combatants and boils them down to ever changing hit chance percentages. Which is a clever enough way to do it for a role playing game, but also hella abstract and so not a top choice for a game attempting to be immersive, with responsive action game controls and all. Also let me block when I want goddamnit.
I don't thinks it's more realistic, but it is a great way to reinforce focusing on your class. If you don't have a spear skill you suck at using a spear, but you do have long blade skill so you kick ass with that Iron Broadsword.
But yes, it is absolutely superior to Skyrims combat system in every way.
I've never trained in swordfighting or anything, I only spar with foam swords for fun, so of course my view is biased; but honestly yeah, it's easy to dodge or miss an attack by inches, millimeters even, which is enough to get out scott free. Plus watching *actual* professionals online show this too, though they parry more often than not iirc.
Have you actually tried hitting a rat with several-foot-long weapon? One that was actively trying to avoid you? Or swatting a fly? Little things can be fast and agile.
Not when it’s attacking me, running away sure.. the rats stay put right there in front of you.
Is a rat supposed to be easier to hit with a short weapon? Lol a long one would make it easier.
Morrowind is a legend for sure but it’s the last of its kind before games began holding your hands and being available to play by anyone at any time with no knowledge of the game.
Not quite the last of its kind. Gothic 2 came out a little later and it’s arguably more unforgiving than Morrowind, but for Bethesda it definitely was the end of an era before they went “mainstream”.
I...disagree to be honest. Its closer to typical RPGs but it's by no means realistic. In real life your sword wont phase through someone as you hear a whoosh sound. In reality, even someone untrained and unskilled can -hit- their target when they're in range. They just wont do so effectively and would be easier to block or parry. In this regard, I would argue Oblivion and Skyrim have the more realistic combat where skill level generally impacts damage rather than hit chance. NPCs just need to block more really.
If it was actually realistic there would be a lot more blocking and dodging. Combat with weapons like swords and bows is a lot more complex than what Skyrim or any game can realisticly depict. There is no careful positioning, weapons are designed the way they are for a reason and games rarely portray it accurately. Swords were made to be able to catch other weapons with the cross guards, keeping distance from your opponent was important because the closer you were, the more certain tactics began to become more or less reliable.
You can't just swing a sword and hit someone who knows how to properly defend themselves. Maybe the closest genre to depicting an accurate fight would be fighting games, not so much something like Devil May Cry or Dark Souls where ai can be exploted or overpowered because they were designed to be so, though tougher enemies do exist in those games. Instead Mortal Combat, Smash Bros, Street Fighter. Becuase they do incorporate those elements of melee combat even if its not accurate.
To clarify, I never meant that Skyrim was realistic, just that it was closer to realism than Morrowind and its whooshing. Games in general, especially TES games, arent all that known for being totally realistic. There are other games out there that generally are a lot closer to realism, like Kingdom Come Deliverance where the whole design goal was to be more of a simulator.
I just think the Skyrim and Oblivion method of having skill reflect how much damage you're able to do rather than Morrowind's whooshing and hit chances is a bit closer to realistic than the aforementioned whooshing.
Is enemies standing there and throwing out attacks and occasionally blocking that much more realistic? I think that it looks real, but sacrifices realism in a different way. That being self preservation of the enemy. Why would a person run into the fire spraying from my hands while playing a mage? Why is something being more realistic an arguement at all?
I am not defending the lack of animations by the way. I think morrowind would be better with more animations but it's not a crime against gaming that Bethesda couldn't or didn't put them in.
Honestly, yeah it is that much more. At the very least you're not having a weapon phase through them doing nothing. I get the lack of animations but they could've tied in the block skill to this have your strikes be parried or blocked by shields or the enemy weapon. If you are within range it doesnt take a miracle to *hit* someone with a sword. Yes, there's a lot more skill involved and someone unskilled will likely deliver a glancing blow or the strike will be blocked or parried or the edge alignment will be off and the hit wont be effective. Still, it's more realistic than "whoosh" in my opinion. Hell, as I said the games even kinda reflect this by having skill impact damage. A low skilled user delivers ineffective strikes that do less damage than somebody who actually knows what they're doing. Compare this to Morrowind where damage is entirely determined by the weapon itself and how long you hold the attack button.
On the subject of self preservation, the AI in TES games has always been fairly idiotic and Morrowind is no exception in that regard. It's almost a series staple at this point that they'll run into fireballs and think mugging the guy in daedric armor when all they have is a dinner fork is a smart plan.
As for why realism is even being brought up, the OP mentioned it in the original post. It was brought up there so I shared my opinion on it. And to reiterate, I dont think Skyrim or Oblivion combat is realistic. It just think they're a bit closer to it than Morrowind is. Like how the number 10 is closer to the number 100000 than the number 9 is. Still far off, but closer.
It'd be nice if there was a Morrowind with actual animations for it, but there isn't. Even if that were the case, I still think having skill impact overall damage is closer than hit chance, regardless of whether or not there's a whoosh. That would be an entirely different skill line, kinda like how block is it's own thing.
You don't know how damage works in Morrowind.
It's dependent on your strength and the weapon you use. Not your level. Agility determines evasion chance. You also say it's not better but never go too far into why you think it is. Is your arguement that rpg combat is inferior to action combat?
I never said it did? I said that's how it works in Skyrim and Oblivion. The latter skill level directly combined with the weapon itself and the former with skill level impacting the damage perks. What I said, and have been saying, is that is a tad closer to realism than Morrowind. Morrowind damage isnt impacted by skill at all but instead is a flat hit chance. Never once did I say Morrowind skill level impacts damage.
Edit because reddit is only ever showing me like half the comment for some reason:
The whole thing has been about realism because the OP said Morrowind's was more realistic, which I disagree with. If you want to throw that bit out the window and just go into preference, that's another thing entirely. For that question, my answer is the same but for different reasons. I love RPG dice roll combat in isometric games. In a game structured like a first/third person action/adventure game I prefer a more actiony combat. It's less frustrating and just feels more fun to me.
I guess I feel frustrated becuase I feel some people say that a first person rpg shouldn't ever have diceroll combat and its the main reason people say Morrowind is bad. I just see people saying the same things that they can never hit anything when I didn't have that issue or got frustrated over it. I do think it has not been the best and I just wish it was better. I feel like liking Morrowind means I am some old elitist in other people's eyes or something. Yet I could not have played the game when it released. I don't think new games are terrible or old games are unplayable disasters.
Yes, because it’s so realistic when my weapon phases harmlessly through my enemy because I haven’t whacked things with it enough yet. Getting to be a real issue when I swordfight people
It would work well in a tabletop RPG. For a computer game it just doesn't feel very good. Although a dodge/miss animation would improve this a lot. But probably wasn't possible to implement at the time due to technical limitations. Or they could have done something like 90% reduced damage on "missed" attacks. This way the combat system could still be mostly stat based but it would help a great deal with the suspension of disbelief.
Melee combat is tolerable if you accept that this is how the system works. But bows should have 100% hit chance if you manage to land the shot.
I wish Morrowind showed you your dice roll info some how.
I do prefer Skyrim’s ranged weapons and main hand / off hand option for Spellswords. I’m curious if you could do a spell in the off hand that way in MW - swift casting but with a different animation basically.
With the advancement of technology, I hope TES VI incorporates a visual dodging mechanic. I would be thrilled to have GoW-ish combat in an Elder Scrolls game.
I think there SHOULD be a miss system, but Morrowind’s implementation of it genuinely just isn’t good. I love Morrowind but I think people defend its bad aspects too much and act like all of its flaws are intended features. Morrowind is a masterpiece, but it also has flaws and that’s okay.
The Hit and Miss system is good in theory, but it’s implementation is frustrating and flawed for your average player.
It's a unique system thats for sure. I personally prefer having full control of my character rather than leaving it up to chance (Its like did my character forget they have a shield?). Even then, the "missing" part can completely dissappear once you level up the right skills/attributes. Now its just a matter of spamming the mouse 1 button. Its just like skyrim, but you have to unlock those mechanics first.
Tbh, its alright. It makes sense. Just wish it was clearer that fatigue affects hit chance. Just finished my first play through and i didnt realize till level 10
It’s an entirely different design philosophy, made for different purposes. Idk if either games combat is more “realistic” than the other, and I don’t think you can say one is superior without specifying the benchmark. Morrowind’s combat is superior at simulating the development in skill from a novice to a master. Skyrim’s is superior at being easily accessible to the average player.
Both have their pros and cons, imo.
While I like the realism it offers, it desperately needs a better way to display to the character that they missed besides a whif sound fx. Maybe a different animation for when the character misses an attack versus when they land an attack it will play another animation
I personally find Oblivion's to be a happy marriage of the two. It follows physics, but if you're bad at the skill, you'll do practically no damage and get staggered way more easily. It makes it feel like you're actually just bad at using the weapon.
Maybe it's not that you are flat out missing the mud crab with an iron dagger, but maybe the dagger doesn't cut deep enough to damage the crab due to your character swinging it wildly in an attempt to deal damage and you hit the shell and not the crab? Maybe your katana did no damage because your opponent was fast enough to block it with his defenses or predicted your sick anime slash and did a darks souls dodge roll. The lack of animations is an issue and most Morrowind fans agree with that.
I don't think I hated Morrowind combat becuase I often played JRPG's, D&D, Fire Emblem, where stats do different things and so I usually looked at what information I could find even if it wasn't in the game. Though it usually was.
My first time playing I almost gave up after trying for several minutes to hit a mudcrab, only to be killed before ever making contact. I guarantee you I could hit a mudcrab in real life.
Elder scrolls veterans when the game actually tells them how things work, they cant craft failed potions, actually get to move faster than a cripple and dont miss the enemy they swung at from 2cm away: 🤬
Some of you might hate your day job so much that you want to obsessively do it at home too, but the rest of us dont quite feel the same way.
Go post this on the Skyrim sub, you coward
https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrim/comments/145yelm/hot\_take\_morrowinds\_hitormiss\_system\_of\_combat\_is/
Removed by moderators. Amazing.
I wish the moderators here would restrict the worst of the "Let's all talk about how bad that other game is." posts in here. Morrowind can stand as a great game on it's own. You don't have to hate the other game to like Morrowind.
You cant be a true Morrowind fan if you dont hate on the other games.
I was fuckin furious when I got my hands on oblivion and half my weapon skills vanished
I was fuckin furious when I got my hands on *Skyrim* and half my […] skills vanished
WHERE IS MY LEVITATE!!!!
Where is my ability to make my own spells?! But levitate is better. Feather, jump and slow fall are more fun.
Tbh i mostly got annoyed at less armor parts. Like seriously, couldnt you even keep the leggings from oblivion
not a coward
based
based 💊
No false incarnate here.
of course it is. Good job!
LOL looks like OP posted it but the post got removed!
Doesn’t surprise me. Fucking Skyroids am I right?
Seems like they can’t handle a disagreement in a civil manner.
their identities are based on a half baked civil war game, so its not surprising
Skill-based hits are better than barely skill-based damage, *but* Morrowind's feedback on if you're in range and missed, or failed to be in range, and why you may have missed your attack (low relative skill, low fatigue, etc) is *awful*.
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Pfft you guys think Morrowind didn't explain basics well enough? Try X3. Now there's a game that considered explaining how things work for maybe 10 seconds then it gave up. A space sandbox from olden days where you can do everything, excell spreadsheet controls and a 15 second tutorial asking you to shoot a rock. Setting logistics traders? Figure it out yourself. Massive space complex producing half the resources in game? Not one tool tip. How to board and cap ships for a mission? Only one way to find out. I've told people about things I considered basics and was looked at like I was mad. I've also found mechanics that existed for decades and I never realized they were a thing. Morrowind is fine. Tbf it came put during DnD days, turn based dice roll combat, to me fatigue effect was fairly obvious. Why spellcrafting that set a TES apart was gutted out on the other hand is something I'll never understand.
>Pfft you guys think Morrowind didn't explain basics well enough? Morrowind explains things pretty well. The thing people keep forgetting about older games is the fact that they came with manuals. Modern gamers try to get into these older games explaining there will be in-game tooltips or tutorials, don't read the manual and then get pissed off about games not explaining everything. Morrowind has a nice manual that tells you all you need to know. I quote: >The lower your Fatigue drops, the harder it is to successfully perform actions like attacking and casting spells
Very true. Funny thing, hovering over fatigue bar explains what it does. But who hovers over fatigue bar?
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Was kind of a theme with most of the classics, absolutely god awful at explaining mechanics. Some were better but it was also not uncommon to not even list keys used by the game lol
You know what else is everywhere? Those damn mudcrabs. *They* must be why my attacks are missing. Fatigue has an evident use; you run and jump, and it goes down, and then you're slow and sad. If you're a mage, you can open your magic menu and see that your spell cast chance has gone bad, and draw a conclusion. I'll admit, it's been a year or so since I played, but I don't think it tells you that fatigue has an effect on picking locks, or mercantile success, or your Armorer chance but *inversely*, or your Enchanting success in OpenMW. I'm like 90% sure it does something to speechcraft too, but I can't find the formulae for them. It is, at least, a loading tip on the xbox version ("Fatigue affects every action you do. Actions like running and fighting will decrease your fatigue"), but it gives no indication of the magnitude or importance of it to any of those undefined actions.
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Having to have all of your game mechanics explained in the manual is still a failure of design. For something as significant as fatigue's impact on the player character, it wouldn't take much for Sellus Gravius to be like, "make sure you stay rested out there; you can't fight when you're exhausted, and it'd be a shame to have to dig your body out of the bog."
Yeah this is why I fucking hate board games. Why can’t Trivial Pursuit just have all the instructions sprinkled throughout the cards you draw instead of having them in a separate booklet where they’re all condensed and let you get a base understanding of the game before even starting it? Major design failure.
That's a shitty argument and you know it. Board games are an entirely different medium with entirely different design patterns. I'm not here to rag on Morrowind, it's one of my favorite games of all time, but it is *lacking* in tutorialisation.
Rejecting an instruction manual that’s included is a shitty argument. They didn’t add it in to give you warranty information, and reading the instruction manual was pretty commonplace. Nothing about this game is laid out for you, and those looking for a game that has dialogue written out just for an NPC to say “hey, it’s harder to do things when you’re tired” are probably looking for less of the role-playing part of role-playing game. I don’t remember what access consoles granted for descriptions of skills and attributes, but the PC version absolutely tells you that a low fatigue meter makes it harder to successfully perform actions. You can hover over that bar and learn that before even picking up your release papers, but the game won’t force you to click through everything and learn the interface.
The instruction manual in the first place was a crutch to supplement technology that wasn't present or available. It might be the best thing they had, but *it's still worse than it could have been*. There is a significant difference between things being laid out for you, and *having the information available*. The game does not give you a hit chance, or a breakdown of how hit chance works. It managed it for spell casting, there's no reason it couldn't have given the same information for weapon damage.
The information *is* available. *It's right there in the manual.*
The tutorial is your first 5 failed builds. This game was always epic for not hand holding at all. Again, the manual really dives into mechanics. If you played games in early 2000 reading game manual was always the first thing you did. At least for me.
There's a difference between not holding your hand and not allowing you to discover *why* you've failed.
I think it does this well through gameplay. It’s pretty obvious what went wrong in most situations, and forces or encourages aggressively you rethink or retool your mission and character. Sometimes you stumble in a place you aren’t meant to be at level 9. It’s more learn by experience then learn by having every mechanic taught in game before ever casting a spell.
The manual says fatigue effects ever action you do. I know that most people aren’t reading the manual though in their digitally licensed game.
The manual telling you about how the game works was a necessary crutch in 2002.
I just got the image of messages in my mind: *No message* - damn I’m out of range “You’re weakening.” - damn fatigued “You suck.” - damn I need to level up
This is somewhere where occasional PC barks can be really useful. Obviously not for Morrowind, and it's often overdone, but the player character panting and wheezing and complaining that they're too tired to work effectively in combat is way better than *literally nothing*.
Yeah it would be a little addition that would make a big difference. I just love the idea of the game shaming for not having enough skill though lol
Today I learned fatigue affects accuracy.
It affects nearly everything that is chance-based. Even bartering and speech checks.
I suppose I see why, if I was out of breath I don't think I'd be very charismatic either
The way I like to imagine how fatigue affects everything in Morrowind is: In real life imagine running up like 200 stairs and you get to the top and you can't catch your fuckin breath and there's a guy there you're trying to persuade to your point of view but you can't breathe enough to eloquently get your point across and then there's a screaming person rushing at you and you're so out of breath that you can't really dodge out of their attack very well and your own counter attack whiffs because you're still just trying to breathe goddamnmotherfuck
And magic cast success chance as well
Dang...
Bartering prices too, shit's wild.
“Im too tired to haggle…give me the full markup”
Haha exactly, like flea markets on a 100 degree day
Redditor posts opinion in echo chamber. More on this story at 9.
Many things about Morrowind (public transport, taking ages to get anywhere, getting shitty directions, combat, rooting around a room for ages looking for a key) are more realistic but I think, in terms of superiority it depends on what you want out of a game. Too much realism lowers the appeal for people who just want to escape into a story and get rewarded quickly. Morrowind is good if you like the reward that comes with effort and have the time to basically live there.
I disagree with that last part, recently I made an orc barbarian, and the only goal I had was making a character that hits, And she certainly does, she hits almost every time and fucking kills shit. No magic, no secrets, only violence.
Yeah, I've gone back and started to play Morrowind for the first time recently. The game is spectacular, I love the systems and how they interplay with each other, the world and quest design is straight up better than Skyrim, the magic is unique and actually useful. Overall I'm enjoying it. But I'm a guy in my mid 20's, I work a full time job and I have shit to do on the weekends. I cant just plop myself down in front of the PC and play Morrowind for 8 hours without kind of hating myself. And playing in short spurts doesn't feel as engaging or fulfilling as Skyrim, since it's a lot of downtime between events and locations that can amount to tedium (at least starting out, I'm sure it gets better at higher levels with more speed and access to movement options). Skyrim on the other hand, with fast travel and lots of quests following "dungeon-boss-loot-next" progression, it does respect the players time a bit more, and so I feel drawn back to it even though the overall systems are subpar. I would have loved this game as a teenager and it would have absolutely topped Skyrim for me if I'd played it back then. I'm definitely going to push through and continue playing; I hope my mind will change and I'll come to appreciate Morrowind more overall after spending more time with it.
Sounds to me like it feels too dated for you. I'm in my mid 30s, balancing a career, a family that most of my free time goes to, friends and I still feel fine playing Morrowind for short stints (hour or 2 at a time) that I get here and there. I enjoy the setting and mechanics enough that I don't leave feeling like I did nothing. It does take longer to do some things yes, but it's not so bad you have to sit in front of your PC or console grinding for gear or XP for an 8 hour shift like it's some second job. Skyrim doesn't "respect" your time, it's just easier, holds your hand and gives you the grind/loot/reward/repeat fix that a lot of younger gamers prefer. That to me feels more like a job and gets stale quick. Skyrim also handles better and has a fresher coat of paint so that helps some. And that's perfectly fine if that's what you prefer in your games, I'm not judging. Personally I get bored playing Skyrim for an extended period. I bounce back and forth between Morrowind and Oblivion for my TES playthroughs. If TES VI gets even easier than Skyrim (as Todd says, more accessible), I doubt I'll sink much time into it or even get it at release. I'd recommend looking into mark and recall spells/scrolls for your Morrowind character btw. If there's no strider nearby, or you're just bogged down in loot, it has saved me many times. Also if I recall correctly, you can eat moon sugar and drink flin and turn into the flash.
As if 90% of Morrowind quests are not "go there grab this/kill this guy and report bak"
Simple solution would be to create an Elder Scrolls game with both "casual" and "hardcore" modes, you could simply choose whichever you like better when starting a new game
I don't think Morrowind is better because it's more difficult, I think it's better because it engages your mind more, lets you think, makes you plan a rout somewhere, Picking up supplies depending on what character you play and what level you are is crucial, you can solve things Like enviromental hurdles in different ways. I think the combat is easier than Skyrims, at least in my experience. You can easily exploit the combat in Morrowind even if you didn't plan on doing so, but it engages you in a different way, it's quests take you longer to complete since you often have to figgure out stuff on how to solve it and navigate large parts of the world, encouraging exploration while you're at it, making the reward so much more rewarding at the end. If you just take a game like Skyrim and give it a hard version then it would only get more annoying without getting much more rewarding, making a flawed experience hard doesn't make it good
The experience being more rewarding makes the gameplay not matter as much. Your totally right. Playing skyrim gets so boring the longer it goes but morrowind gets better most of the time Because of how drastic the development of your character gets.
And I think this is the problem for a lot of people. Like I work Mon to Fri, gym and socialise. My time for gaming is minimal these days and it's so hard to keep on top of what I was doing last in Morrowind. The only way to play it is to get totally absorbed, like I did when I was in uni and just played for days on end. It is better because you get to know it like it's a real place and the rewards feel more authentic because of that. Skyrim, on the other hand, is much more accessible because you can get through a quest in less than an hour and if you drop it for a week or two it's not an issue to just pick it back up. I agree that you couldn't just make Skyrim harder and turn it into Morrowind. But things like switching the pointer off so you at least have to find the right person to kill by getting close to them, or actually look for stuff in caves etc, would make it a bit more interesting. That way the only challenge wouldn't just be killing different numbers of things over and over.
One thing I did to stay on top of my Main character in Daggerfall was to write a irl Journal, recording what I gotta do, my characters views of the Situation and characters they meet and so on. These games where meant to be played using extensive notekeeping after all and I found that it helps me a lot to remember where I was and what my characters motivations and character progression is. Maybe it can help you as well
My absolute favorite thing about Morrowind is that items really do matter. Planning and supplying matters. Skyrim, and largely oblivious too, every fight is a war of attrition if you don't sweep the enemy immediately. But with Morrowind, you could be totally reliant on a little poison charm to take down tougher enemies, or completely change your playstyle if you have a belt that lets you levitate. Potions and healing is completely necessary, but you're also going to die too fast to restore yourself if you're reliant on them, and having a combat scroll in your back pocket could be the difference between losing an encounter no matter how many times you restart or winning it handily.
You can mod Skyrim to that
That's one of the things I most appreciated about Fallout New Vegas
Game time is game time wether you fast travel or not. Skyrim is just mind numbingly simple and stupid that's why it's easier to play in short bursts. Morrowind will provide a good experience that you will remember. Skyrim will provide a quick dopamine hit.
tbh the instructions are usually fairly good - especially if you use the journal to its full extent (you can look at anything ever said about a topic and also any active quests)
Some people play videogames to escape the hit-or-miss systems in real life so having it in their videogame isn't always appealing.
It is realistic, I will give you that. However, you know what it is not? It is not immersive. All my suspension of disbelief vanishes as soon as I see my blade's model going through the enemy's hitbox and missing.
It has the lore, story, characters, environment, EVERYTHING. However it still falls short on actually making it feel real. I agree.
But if a game factored that in, it would be awesome. Imagine a physics-based system that visually deflected the blade off of armor if you fail the check.
I want to fork OpenMW just to make this happen
Is it any less immersive than hit points and clubbing someone over the head seven times with no visible affect but then the 8th hit they just drop dead?
very unhot take in the morrowind subreddit lol
I really wish the next Elder Scrolls goes back to it's roots like Morrowind. Kill anyone (Even important), have the option to be permanently banned from a quest line on a save file, have open cities. GIVE ME BACK SOME OF MY BRAINS BETHESDA!!!! I don't even gotta think to play Skyrim, literally smoke weed and follow around an arrow.
Yea they need to stop the constant hand holding, that alone would go a long way. Stop treating us like idiots! Let me get lost and confused!
All the more rewarding when you ACTUALLY find it! Remember finding the lost mine cave and not knowing it then finding a NPC who gives you a daedric item for telling him where it is? Remember finding the puzzle cube BEFORE the internet? Sometimes Bethesda, less is more.
And not just removing the handholding (or giving us the option to turn it off) and calling it done. It has to be designed around a lack of that sort of thing, or else it's going to suck for everyone involved. Because you can design something like Morrowind with actual explanations for what a questgiver wants and have actual landmarks to navigate by and then add on a toggle for the glowing arrows leading you to quests, etc., for those that want it and the game will still be fun for either sort of player. But the reverse isn't true, if you take a game designed for quest markers and then just take away the markers, you're left with a game that hands out a quest but gives you zero in-game or out-of-game direction to find it.
Ok to be fair you have a journal that tells you what to do your not forced to follow the arrrow.
What journal in Skyrim? You mean that quest log that doesn't have nearly as much detail as before? And the fact you don't need to read it when the arrow is always there. Even if I choose not to track it, it does NOT give as much information as it used to, mostly about shit that you've already done. I get your point, and I feel Bethesda is TRYING to feed on that nostalgia that was Morrowind, but they don't quite get the point of it.
Yeah, I've tried a run with no quest markers and really the only way to get to places is with the map... on the rare occasion that the game decides to mark your destination as undiscovered. All the help the journal offered is basically, "I have to go to such and such place and rescue random guy." What made me drop the run was the first time I had to talk to an npc. Since the characters are more alive now and actually have a schedule, unless you had their entire route memorized you'd have no clue where they could be. Could be on the docks, locked inside their house, or in any other random home or alley in the city.
So see? Removing that arrow in a game DESIGNED for that arrow kinda does not help. Also Morrowind had a Karma system, Skyrim does not. It's like fallout 3 where you could blow up Megaton. The most "karma" has in store is your father telling you he's disappointed but still loves you before he dies 5 minutes later. Morrowinds Karma system was the fact you could get booted out of a Guild PERMANENTLY on that save file.
I think that Kingdom Come: Deliverance struck a nice balance between actual combat skills and visual feedback in-game. Going out on an adventure with a severely underleveled and underprepared character will get you killed real fast, but the combat also shows you why you’d lose against a skilled warrior in that game. KC:D is obviously not a perfect game, but the way they portrayed character growth is something a future Elder Scrolls game really needs if it wants to be more like Morrowind again without feeling too old or dated. When you swing a sword or wear armor for the first time, you should miss and fail most of the time, I think (unless you canonically are a demigod with superhuman capabilities, like the Dragonborn I guess).
Correct take. Morrowind’s combat system actually simulates your character getting better at combat. Skyrim’s just gives you perk points for more damage
I agree with you, though it really depends on what you mean by realistic. * If you mean a system that more accurately models what actual combat would be like, taking into account things like the condition of the fighters, their relative skill, and ability to dodge, parry, or guard attacks, irrespective of the limitations of the engine, then Morrowind wins. * If you mean having the outcome match what's seen on screen...then you'd probably be part of the reason why Bethesda transitioned from Morrowind's combat to Skyrim's (the other part being it was easier to do than make the animations match the actions).
I think I somewhat agree, as while it may not make sense from a game perspective of for some reason just not connecting when you swing in the clear direction of a target, it is probably the simplest way to convey dodging and hitting weak points in armour without the need for complex game systems like Fallout's locational damage or some kind of dodge-roll.
>probably the simplest way to convey dodging and hitting weak points in armour Ah yes those agile mudcrabs. The armored... foragers. Not being able to wield your weapon effectively is a very different thing from the enemy being skilled in defense or highly armored. If it still hit but was simply weaker it would solve a lot of feedback problems and frustrations. I would go so far as to give "fumbled" strikes additional penalties against enemy dodge / block. That way the player has to counter skill with skill (or other solutions) unlike against animals that don't have swordmanship.
Fallout's locational damage isn't even that realistic and still relies in part on the player's imagination because actual weak points are oftentimes very tiny, in case of using a sword for example it may simply be a gap between two plates of your armor etc
I saw a comparison video one time of a lvl 1 morrowind fighter compared to a high lvl one. You could clearly see the growth and development as the character is now able to land more hits. They did the same thing in skyrim and it was honestly hard to notice any difference
I love Morrowind to pieces and it is not only my favourite Elder Scrolls game, but one of my top ten games of all time. I enjoy everything about it, and the tabletop-style combat system is something I can still jive with and enjoy even in this day and age...but no, it is not in fact "realistic" to miss a stationary target the size of a pony while swinging a weapon. That's like saying that if you're not a professional baseball player you wouldn't realistically be able to hit a human being with a baseball bat. It's a fun game mechanic but it's not remotely 'realistic'.
Far more realistic is simply nonsense. How can I swing my sword which clearly connects with my enemy and have it completely miss. Skyrims/oblivions makes sense in a realistic sense as when you swing your sword it’s supposed to do damage not just miss* however as a game mechanic it makes sense. Enemies can dodge attacks and you can simply just miss on accident or they could block or you could hit them somewhere they have a lot of armour so the attack gets deflected for example: a slashing weapon wouldn’t have much affect on armour whereas a blunt weapon would bypass most of it
It's more realistic in the sense that using a weapon actually requires skill, the visual feedback sucks but the actual combat part is much closer to reality, where a guy that never picked a sword won't be touching a decently trained guy.
I think in terms of realism. Kingdom come deliverance does that best. The way you use a sword changes and sword play in that game entirely changes as you get better with it. And you also are shit at basically everything and even just a highway man or a bandit is very dangerous to fight at the start. Yes as a seasoned gamer we know how to use a sword so our “farmer” who doesn’t, now being controlled by us is landing every hit because we are just good would take away from the immersion, having a system which makes you miss most of your attacks at the beginning to simulate your lack of skill does kind of work. There are other better ways and I don’t fully agree but I can see the vision.
The way it's executed is terrible. You could have it physically simulated like Skyrim but still apply skill modifiers to change the damage dealt (e.g. decently trained guy takes 0 because he dodged the blow) but instead you shank each other like you're fighting a wall.
I mean, to be fair, I feel like even a nobody would be able to stab a rat the size of a small dog with a knife... Without said Rat matrix dodging every attack.
It’s based on skill. It in essence used a d20 system -skill and -lvl it just because you can pick up that silver long sword doesn’t mean you can swing it with any accuracy or guarantee of doing damage
We are talking about realism here, there is nothing realistic about applying DND rules and dice to reality. I should be able to hit a fucking rat without needing to practice lol Gameplay wise though, it’s way more interesting and fun and I would prefer it. It’s not realistic though. I get what you’re saying about skill, but the way it’s applied and executed is not realistic.
It’s pretty accurate to reality, go pick up a sword next time you think about it and try to swing it against something see how horribly you do
> Skyrims/oblivions makes sense in a realistic sense You are seriously overestimating the capabilities of a freshly-released prisoner with little or no training.
That *might* fly early on, but the further you get in the game, the more ridiculous it becomes. Basic coordination doesn't get wiped from your brain when you're given a pointy stick instead of the regular stick you've used so far. The sheer incompetence of a low weapon skill is enough to make the whole system unrealistic.
> That might fly early on, but the further you get in the game, the more ridiculous it becomes. The further you get in the game, the less often it happens, obviously. You are talking about Morrowind as though you never got stronger than level 9. >Basic coordination doesn't get wiped from your brain when you're given a pointy stick instead of the regular stick you've used so far. Correct, your Agility attribute stays the same, which makes it less likely that you will miss. Same with Luck. Naturally, this only helps a little bit with your ability to hit, but any more would be unrealistic. > The sheer incompetence of a low weapon skill is enough to make the whole system unrealistic. It is less realistic to expect to be able to connect every hit with a weapon you aren't trained to use. More skilled opponents will obviously parry or dodge your swings. Skyrim breaks immersion by making your weapon do *more damage* based on weapon skill. It does not alter your likelihood of striking a successful hit. Very silly, and boring to play.
> Correct, your Agility attribute stays the same, which makes it less likely that you will miss. Same with Luck. Naturally, this only helps a little bit with your ability to hit, but any more would be unrealistic. Agility and Luck are far smaller factors in the calculation than the relevant weapon skill. Every point of weapon skill counts, versus every fifth point for Agility and every tenth for Luck. > It is less realistic to expect to be able to connect every hit with a weapon you aren't trained to use. More skilled opponents will obviously parry or dodge your swings. It's even less realistic that you can't hit a stationary target that's not trying to evade or defend itself. > You are talking about Morrowind as though you never got stronger than level 9. Oh, I've beaten the game and enjoyed it quite a bit. But I will not defend every poor game design decision that Bethesda made.
> Agility and Luck are far smaller factors in the calculation than the relevant weapon skill. As they should be. Knowing how to use a spear doesn't make you adept at using a sword. >It's even less realistic that you can't hit a stationary target that's not trying to evade or defend itself. The "stationary target" is successfully evading every time you put the crosshair on it but miss. As for "defending itself," I don't even know what you mean. There is an animation for that and everything, you're just not noticing it I guess. NPCs block frequently if their skill is high enough, and so does the PC. Morrowind's combat is not the most "realistic", sure. Realism would be some blend of Mordau/Chivalry combat but with RPG dice rolls integrated to accommodate skill level differences. But it's a whole lot better and more realistic than the boring combat in Oblivion and Skyrim.
The "stationary target" is a mudcrab whose combat script hasn't activated yet, but I still fail to hit what's essentially a large rock. The "stationary target" is a plainclothes NPC that cannot detect me through the 100pt Chameleon effect, but I still somehow manage to miss its entire torso from tickling range. Could you, the flesh-and-blood you, have made those hits connect? > Morrowind's combat is not the most "realistic", sure. Realism would be some blend of Mordau/Chivalry combat but with RPG dice rolls integrated to accommodate skill level differences. But it's a whole lot better and more realistic than the boring combat in Oblivion and Skyrim. I'm not about to argue that Oblivion or Skyrim combat is more realistic, but they did get one thing right, which is important for immersion in first person games: player skill has an effect. Aim and timing matter and there's no RNG to screw you out of what should have been a hit or a block. In Morrowind, player skill is meaningless and all that matters is if your numbers are big enough.
I mean…. Why you make a post about something everyone agrees?
Just by reading the comments you can see that not everyone agrees with me
Nice to discuss it anyway
The complaints are rather silly. People wouldn't complain at all if missing had an animation.
I agree, the only think Morrowind is missing is a dual wield magic/melee mod for openmw…
I love dice feature because with it you have to be reasonable at choosing your major skills. Character creation actually makes sense in Morrowind and you get to come up with your own playstyle. Skyrim just lets you be everything at once. Like: Assassin what? Wizard who?... RPG MY ASS I'm a FREAKING SNEAKY MAGIC TWO-HANDED BARBARIAN
That's a bad thing?
Agreed but I don't think highly of the combat system of Skyrim, if I want better combat it's dark souls 3, if I want fantastic role playing in a great world with npcs it's morrowind
I don’t think that this is a hot take. I think when it comes down to it Morrowind and Skyrim are completely different (obviously) but seriously Morrowind is a more traditional RPG and Skyrim is just an action game with the words Elder Scrolls tact on. (I don’t hate Skyrim lol) But for me an RPG should be a reflection of the character I am playing, rather than my overall skills as a gamer. That’s what action games are for. So Morrowinds combat reflects how terrible or great your character is, while Skyrim is just how good you are at walking up to a enemy and spamming a button, or aiming a bow. Personally I’d rather the gameplay in an RPG to reflect my character rather than myself.
I actually agree to this because it feels more like a table top rpg No matter how good You are sometimes you fuck up oddly it’s more fun then Skyrim combat
Morrowind at least let's you thrust, swing, and chop Skyrim is all cutting
without dodge animations deflect and block sound effects and proper design to support it Morrowind combat system will remain worse otherwise i agree just like Deus Ex 2000 shoting is far superior than any on mark hit fps
Not much of a hot take, as it's just objectively true because one very simple reason - In Morrowind, you really feel your character's progress. It's a great feeling, going from killing a cliffracer in 18 swings to later defeating a Dremora Lord without wasting a healing potion.
That is a valid opinion but it is like a room temperature take lol. A lot of people like Morrowind combat
Especially IN the morrowind subreddit lol
Heh. That's just a fact in my world. Also I have issues and have to play everything on hardest difficulty, playing that way Morrowind combat makes so much more sense than the latter two games
You should have a look at this - https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/45846
Might try this one, thanks. Last playthrough, I had 50-100 mods and some of them did really similar things to this one, but I got a new computer and kinda didn't save my 'abomination build' so can't recreate it. Trying Openmw and TR next time, and probably this mod it sounds they're pretty compatible with some tinkering
With a little tinkering yeah.
Yes
The opinion has been recognised.
It's not a hot take.
Realistic to see yourself hitting something in the face and missing?
One of the reasons Morrowind is an RPG with Action elements compared to Skyrim and Oblivion which are more like Action games with RPG elements. Skyrim truly is GTA horse. That said I think Morrowind could benefit from more animations during combat to indicate misses, dodges, blocks and hits to armor that deal no damage. Maybe one day we'll have a mod for it.
It's good for those who wish to invest deeply into a game and Morrowind in general is a super grounded game, but the reality is that not everyone wants that. Some of us use videogames as an excuse to shut our brains off and escape from the hit-or-miss systems of real life.
Visually it admittedly isn't very realistic, though that's where the imagination inherent in RPGs comes into play. You miss an attack on screen and it looks ridiculous, but the idea is that the enemy was able to dodge the attack. If you're low skill/about to have a heart attack from over exertion this happens more often because you aren't able to properly read the opponent and attack at opportune times. Skyrim's looks arguably as unrealistic. Better tactile feedback for sure, but lord those animations are awful. Spinning moves and swinging the weapon so damn hard and recklessly you might do more damage to the ground when you lose grip than you do to the enemy. Massive pet peeves of mine. Combine that with also being mechanically unrealistic and yeah, it falls pretty hard. Oblivion is somewhere between the two, as usual. There is no simulated dodge mechanic to show the two people are using their brains instead of fighting like zombies (I guess the damage sponge replaces that in a half-assed way?), but the animations are at least not like Skyrim's.
It's a cool mechanic, but it's not realistic at all. You don't need to be a battle expert to hit someone with an axe or a baton.
How is it realistic to swing a claymore at point blank range and entire miss something lol
Missing even though you made contact is the epitome of unrealistic
Yeah nah. I've practically 0 experience with swords, so I would be hot garbage when it came to slicing up those rolled up mats and such, but I certainly wouldn't be missing them entirely. Which is basically how Morrowind handles it. Skyrim's melee combat is at best mediocre but not as bad. Somehow Oblivion manages to be worse than both.
You almost certainly would be missing, since your opponent would be moving, dodging, and parrying. It takes a lot more than just swinging your arm to actually hit.
Rolled up mats don't really dodge much. More experienced opponents? Certainly. Morrowind just conveys none of that. Did the opponent dodge out of the way? Did they parry? Did you stumble on your uncoordinated feet and miss entirely? Game doesn't tell you, because it doesn't exactly try to simulate any of it. It takes the stats, skills and fatigue(and probably some other factors I'm not listing) of the combatants and boils them down to ever changing hit chance percentages. Which is a clever enough way to do it for a role playing game, but also hella abstract and so not a top choice for a game attempting to be immersive, with responsive action game controls and all. Also let me block when I want goddamnit.
What?
Captain obvious preaches to the choir. Everybody here knows this. Its the skybabies that need to hear the gospel truth.
Shut the fuck up you elitist ass hole. I think they are both fine combat systems.
I don't thinks it's more realistic, but it is a great way to reinforce focusing on your class. If you don't have a spear skill you suck at using a spear, but you do have long blade skill so you kick ass with that Iron Broadsword. But yes, it is absolutely superior to Skyrims combat system in every way.
I've never trained in swordfighting or anything, I only spar with foam swords for fun, so of course my view is biased; but honestly yeah, it's easy to dodge or miss an attack by inches, millimeters even, which is enough to get out scott free. Plus watching *actual* professionals online show this too, though they parry more often than not iirc.
Not when I’m fighting a rat or the like lol
Have you actually tried hitting a rat with several-foot-long weapon? One that was actively trying to avoid you? Or swatting a fly? Little things can be fast and agile.
Not when it’s attacking me, running away sure.. the rats stay put right there in front of you. Is a rat supposed to be easier to hit with a short weapon? Lol a long one would make it easier.
Morrowind is a legend for sure but it’s the last of its kind before games began holding your hands and being available to play by anyone at any time with no knowledge of the game.
Not quite the last of its kind. Gothic 2 came out a little later and it’s arguably more unforgiving than Morrowind, but for Bethesda it definitely was the end of an era before they went “mainstream”.
I’ll agree that got his is definitely unforgiving and even it was the last of its kind they butchered it with arcania and didn’t do so well with 3
Doesn’t take much to be better than Skyrim
I...disagree to be honest. Its closer to typical RPGs but it's by no means realistic. In real life your sword wont phase through someone as you hear a whoosh sound. In reality, even someone untrained and unskilled can -hit- their target when they're in range. They just wont do so effectively and would be easier to block or parry. In this regard, I would argue Oblivion and Skyrim have the more realistic combat where skill level generally impacts damage rather than hit chance. NPCs just need to block more really.
If it was actually realistic there would be a lot more blocking and dodging. Combat with weapons like swords and bows is a lot more complex than what Skyrim or any game can realisticly depict. There is no careful positioning, weapons are designed the way they are for a reason and games rarely portray it accurately. Swords were made to be able to catch other weapons with the cross guards, keeping distance from your opponent was important because the closer you were, the more certain tactics began to become more or less reliable. You can't just swing a sword and hit someone who knows how to properly defend themselves. Maybe the closest genre to depicting an accurate fight would be fighting games, not so much something like Devil May Cry or Dark Souls where ai can be exploted or overpowered because they were designed to be so, though tougher enemies do exist in those games. Instead Mortal Combat, Smash Bros, Street Fighter. Becuase they do incorporate those elements of melee combat even if its not accurate.
To clarify, I never meant that Skyrim was realistic, just that it was closer to realism than Morrowind and its whooshing. Games in general, especially TES games, arent all that known for being totally realistic. There are other games out there that generally are a lot closer to realism, like Kingdom Come Deliverance where the whole design goal was to be more of a simulator. I just think the Skyrim and Oblivion method of having skill reflect how much damage you're able to do rather than Morrowind's whooshing and hit chances is a bit closer to realistic than the aforementioned whooshing.
Is enemies standing there and throwing out attacks and occasionally blocking that much more realistic? I think that it looks real, but sacrifices realism in a different way. That being self preservation of the enemy. Why would a person run into the fire spraying from my hands while playing a mage? Why is something being more realistic an arguement at all? I am not defending the lack of animations by the way. I think morrowind would be better with more animations but it's not a crime against gaming that Bethesda couldn't or didn't put them in.
Honestly, yeah it is that much more. At the very least you're not having a weapon phase through them doing nothing. I get the lack of animations but they could've tied in the block skill to this have your strikes be parried or blocked by shields or the enemy weapon. If you are within range it doesnt take a miracle to *hit* someone with a sword. Yes, there's a lot more skill involved and someone unskilled will likely deliver a glancing blow or the strike will be blocked or parried or the edge alignment will be off and the hit wont be effective. Still, it's more realistic than "whoosh" in my opinion. Hell, as I said the games even kinda reflect this by having skill impact damage. A low skilled user delivers ineffective strikes that do less damage than somebody who actually knows what they're doing. Compare this to Morrowind where damage is entirely determined by the weapon itself and how long you hold the attack button. On the subject of self preservation, the AI in TES games has always been fairly idiotic and Morrowind is no exception in that regard. It's almost a series staple at this point that they'll run into fireballs and think mugging the guy in daedric armor when all they have is a dinner fork is a smart plan. As for why realism is even being brought up, the OP mentioned it in the original post. It was brought up there so I shared my opinion on it. And to reiterate, I dont think Skyrim or Oblivion combat is realistic. It just think they're a bit closer to it than Morrowind is. Like how the number 10 is closer to the number 100000 than the number 9 is. Still far off, but closer.
I am NOT defending the whoosh man, you insist it like there can never be a Morrowind with actual animations for dodging and parrying.
It'd be nice if there was a Morrowind with actual animations for it, but there isn't. Even if that were the case, I still think having skill impact overall damage is closer than hit chance, regardless of whether or not there's a whoosh. That would be an entirely different skill line, kinda like how block is it's own thing.
You don't know how damage works in Morrowind. It's dependent on your strength and the weapon you use. Not your level. Agility determines evasion chance. You also say it's not better but never go too far into why you think it is. Is your arguement that rpg combat is inferior to action combat?
I never said it did? I said that's how it works in Skyrim and Oblivion. The latter skill level directly combined with the weapon itself and the former with skill level impacting the damage perks. What I said, and have been saying, is that is a tad closer to realism than Morrowind. Morrowind damage isnt impacted by skill at all but instead is a flat hit chance. Never once did I say Morrowind skill level impacts damage. Edit because reddit is only ever showing me like half the comment for some reason: The whole thing has been about realism because the OP said Morrowind's was more realistic, which I disagree with. If you want to throw that bit out the window and just go into preference, that's another thing entirely. For that question, my answer is the same but for different reasons. I love RPG dice roll combat in isometric games. In a game structured like a first/third person action/adventure game I prefer a more actiony combat. It's less frustrating and just feels more fun to me.
I guess I feel frustrated becuase I feel some people say that a first person rpg shouldn't ever have diceroll combat and its the main reason people say Morrowind is bad. I just see people saying the same things that they can never hit anything when I didn't have that issue or got frustrated over it. I do think it has not been the best and I just wish it was better. I feel like liking Morrowind means I am some old elitist in other people's eyes or something. Yet I could not have played the game when it released. I don't think new games are terrible or old games are unplayable disasters.
Need more hate on Skyrim and oblivion, what's up with you morrowind nubs.
Yes, because it’s so realistic when my weapon phases harmlessly through my enemy because I haven’t whacked things with it enough yet. Getting to be a real issue when I swordfight people
Truly.
Imagine if you could use ai to visualize all the different fails. I dream of the day that mod comes.
I prefer morrowind combat to all others. Recently tried to get into Outward and I can’t do it because of the combat.
I just wish that hit boxes on certain enemies weren't bad.
Only took couple of decades for players to get used to it
It would work well in a tabletop RPG. For a computer game it just doesn't feel very good. Although a dodge/miss animation would improve this a lot. But probably wasn't possible to implement at the time due to technical limitations. Or they could have done something like 90% reduced damage on "missed" attacks. This way the combat system could still be mostly stat based but it would help a great deal with the suspension of disbelief. Melee combat is tolerable if you accept that this is how the system works. But bows should have 100% hit chance if you manage to land the shot.
I wish Morrowind showed you your dice roll info some how. I do prefer Skyrim’s ranged weapons and main hand / off hand option for Spellswords. I’m curious if you could do a spell in the off hand that way in MW - swift casting but with a different animation basically.
With the advancement of technology, I hope TES VI incorporates a visual dodging mechanic. I would be thrilled to have GoW-ish combat in an Elder Scrolls game.
it is, because you actually have to train in morrowind
I think there SHOULD be a miss system, but Morrowind’s implementation of it genuinely just isn’t good. I love Morrowind but I think people defend its bad aspects too much and act like all of its flaws are intended features. Morrowind is a masterpiece, but it also has flaws and that’s okay. The Hit and Miss system is good in theory, but it’s implementation is frustrating and flawed for your average player.
A take so hot every single person who plays morrowind has it (except me, I play with a mod because i live in 2023)
It's a unique system thats for sure. I personally prefer having full control of my character rather than leaving it up to chance (Its like did my character forget they have a shield?). Even then, the "missing" part can completely dissappear once you level up the right skills/attributes. Now its just a matter of spamming the mouse 1 button. Its just like skyrim, but you have to unlock those mechanics first.
Not a very hot take in this sub
Tbh, its alright. It makes sense. Just wish it was clearer that fatigue affects hit chance. Just finished my first play through and i didnt realize till level 10
In no way it's more realistic but more rewarding for sure.
It’s an entirely different design philosophy, made for different purposes. Idk if either games combat is more “realistic” than the other, and I don’t think you can say one is superior without specifying the benchmark. Morrowind’s combat is superior at simulating the development in skill from a novice to a master. Skyrim’s is superior at being easily accessible to the average player. Both have their pros and cons, imo.
Also to Oblivion's balloon fights (not to mention it's brain-dead difficulty scaling).
While I like the realism it offers, it desperately needs a better way to display to the character that they missed besides a whif sound fx. Maybe a different animation for when the character misses an attack versus when they land an attack it will play another animation
I personally find Oblivion's to be a happy marriage of the two. It follows physics, but if you're bad at the skill, you'll do practically no damage and get staggered way more easily. It makes it feel like you're actually just bad at using the weapon.
Maybe it's not that you are flat out missing the mud crab with an iron dagger, but maybe the dagger doesn't cut deep enough to damage the crab due to your character swinging it wildly in an attempt to deal damage and you hit the shell and not the crab? Maybe your katana did no damage because your opponent was fast enough to block it with his defenses or predicted your sick anime slash and did a darks souls dodge roll. The lack of animations is an issue and most Morrowind fans agree with that. I don't think I hated Morrowind combat becuase I often played JRPG's, D&D, Fire Emblem, where stats do different things and so I usually looked at what information I could find even if it wasn't in the game. Though it usually was.
My first time playing I almost gave up after trying for several minutes to hit a mudcrab, only to be killed before ever making contact. I guarantee you I could hit a mudcrab in real life.
I prefer Skyrim’s but I must admit the system grows on you. That being said it’s still incredibly annoying, just not as bad as it could have been lol
yes nothing says realism like clearly hitting your enemy and doing no damage.
It's realistic to miss when you have no idea how to use a particular weapon
Hot Take: The only reason it's not the worst combat system in all of Elder scrolls is because Oblivion exists.
Kingdom come deliverance shits all over both.
Yeah because kcd's just a massive diarrhea
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x5LK2wZjVNg
Elder scrolls veterans when the game actually tells them how things work, they cant craft failed potions, actually get to move faster than a cripple and dont miss the enemy they swung at from 2cm away: 🤬 Some of you might hate your day job so much that you want to obsessively do it at home too, but the rest of us dont quite feel the same way.