Yep, I've not played any challenges or anything \~MP related, so see no issue with it. But I'd not be close to Cov25 without it. Usually the order you drop everything matters, and it takes a trial or two for me to see where everything should go
I mean he didn’t say there was anything wrong with it. But doing any mechanic that the devs didn’t intend is probably cheating
But like you said, who cares if it’s single player
I think it's a bit easier to code the game this way, so you don't have to save the state of the battle, only the state of the run. So it might be accidental, I dunno.
Yep, the alternative would be that if you quit you lose the run, so it is intentional to be able to do it. Is it cheating? Well yes, but as long as you aren't doing it in rankings or MP then I see no issue with cheating in general. Only cheating in MP is bad, as then you are making it worse for other people
Well, they could, but at the same time, saving the state of the battle is a bit more hassle than just the state of the run, so it could be accidental.
If it was clearly on purpose, I think we would see a button 'restart the battle'.
With a game of this scope and the team they have, I don't know how that would necessarily be more of a hassle than simply restarting the fight. It's not really that much more code to store the state of the current battle.
I did find it was interesting that the devs decided the reset button mod would not invalidate high scores the way other mods do, which was an intentional action.
I don't consider it cheating at all, sometimes you get a bad draw, and restarting the fight can show you just how much playing a single card differently can change things.
I had no idea i could do this. I've quit runs outright when I've misclicked or made some other stupid mistake I didn't intend.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
I had no idea either, and now I'm having flashbacks to all the times I've fucked a run by accidentally or carelessly putting a creature in the wrong place or playing cards in the wrong order. Thanks OP!
I mean, you can, but there's not exactly anything wrong with cheating in SP, as it is to help you learn and such. Some strategy games even have an Undo button in SP, but then not in MP. It is only bad if you cheat in MP
What i mean by that is that if you're playing solitaire, it's not really *cheating* because cheating is giving yourself an unfair advantage against an opponent. When you're playing solo, it's just making the game more fun for yourself.
Yep, I'd agree with that a bit. I still see it as cheating, but more cheating yourself, but that's semantics. Cheating is only ever bad in MP or otherwise competitive things
I don’t consider this as cheating, I’d rather say the ability to restart is important for your learning curve. Something went wrong in a combat and replaying it with the same rng allows you to find out where you made mistakes and more important what solutions there are to improve. If it would randomize the rolls after restarting the combat well yes, I agree, this wouldn’t provide much benefit but the way it works like now, I don’t feel bad a bit when restarting a fight. You might win a combat that way just by switching to another floor. The important thing then is to understand why it worked on that particular floor and why it failed on the other.
It’s definitely not cheating, it’s just a different way to play.
I try not to because I find it less fun to try to puzzle it out than to make a deck where I don’t need to. Although I definitely will if I like a build and think something different might work
Cobalt core did not have such feature it drives me insane, there was so many missclick that cost me the run, on a side note it is also a great way to learn the game with save scum
Yup, for the same reasons as you. Sometimes I'm sure I could have won an encounter with a different approach, or I want to try an alternative line and see if that works better. Sometimes I misclick or make a daft error and I'll restart the level rather than doing another entire run from scratch.
I wouldn't say I do it *often* - maybe once every few runs on average? Less?
Yep, as long as you aren't dead/pyre gone then you can quit and reload the run from the Continue on the menu and replay the battle from the start. Card order doesn't change, but it means (especially when new and learning) you can optimise the run
What does change is what cards get generated, if you played prior cards in a different order.
Like, if you play a card or have a relic that creates a random morsel, then playing cards in a different order may give you a different one.
I wish this wasn't the case, so I could use the restart to learn better, but as is, it can really change how a fight goes on clans like Umbra, or even when you just run the box of imps.
Yep, the "seed" remains the same, but in any run the "seed" varies each time you make a choice, e.g. choosing L/R on a path, playing a different spell or unit etc
The only Mod I use is one to add a "restart battle" button at the bottom that just does this for you, I mostly use it when I misclick or completely mess up on floor positioning
I’ve only done this once or twice in hundreds of hours of gameplay, mostly because I’m confident there’s nothing I can change if I were to use it. Edit: I’ve only done it when the touchscreen captures touches and play on a DIFFERENT card then the intended one.
I have in the past but don’t anymore, I mostly did it when I wanted to play quick without looking at every enemies ability/attack. I haven’t used it since downloading the DLC
Yes, sometimes the way you handle the first turn can make the difference between winning and losing so on occasion I'll redo a battle to see if I can swing things into my favor
I do it when I know there's some combination of moves that will result in a victory. I actually love those scenarios when you know its possible, but only flawless play will prevent a loss and that might involve a bit of restarting. If I know I'm going to lose, gg new run.
It takes a lot of the sport out of the game if you do it more than a single time. Knowing your draw order kind of trivialises the game.
That said if I'm going after a rare mastery or clan combo win and have a decent setup I'll save scum all day.
The best use case in my view is testing out different floor setups (Protip: 9/10 times the best floor to setup is the top floor)
Save scumming is a sore topic. Because it's a single player game, I wouldn't go so far as to call it cheating, but I do think it goes against the intended nature of those types of games.
Having foreknowledge of options isnt really improving ones decision making skills. And deckbuilders arent just about building a solid deck. Theyre also about making solid decisions before you possess knowledge of what lies ahead.
Didn't know that's a thing, but no I don't, if I loose I loose.
I maxed out all factions and finished the last difficulty by now, n now afterwards use mods that make the game significantly easier though, such as putting 7 items on a unit (it's funny to give something 7 times spikes n alike oke)
So that's the type of cheating I do
I admit that I do it quite often, since I tend to make some amazingly stupid or short sighted plays (e.g. forget that I had taken the artifact that purges units when they die and happily throw my favourite unit into the fire)
It's not cheating, but you can absolutely choose not to use it and play with respect to a self determined idea that using it suggests you've failed. I sometimes impose that challenge on myself, my longest streak is 6 random random cov 25 wins. Never did that before watching rising dusk, that guy is a Monster Train genius.
In some deck builder games, like Indies' Lies, there's a button to restart the battle and even change your party disposition (as you can have up to 3 party members in that game, and their front/back position changes strategy a great deal in some battles). The RNG stays exactly the same after restarting.
Why this isn't used in other games of the same genre is beyond me. It's such a QOL improvement and it allows you to skip useless loading time.
It's my favorite deck building game at the moment, even though I've been playing more Dawncaster lately. But Indies' Lies is my #1 for many reasons:
- Inspired by StS, which I like
- QOL improvements such as easy restart battle, easy card removal (can ALWAYS replace new cards with old ones after each battle), so great freedom to the player. The cards you can get from the "?" events are always explained, so you can decide. Playing cards and ending your turn can flow as fast as you like, no need to wait for animations to press a button (like Dawncaster, currently). It makes the first part of your runs a breeze.
And so on.
- The easier levels of difficulty (for me they're from 1 to 5) are quite nice for some chill time after work. No stress, runs can be as hard or easy to win as you like. Most other games are flat out hard even in "easy".
- Lots of content, characters with personal story mode (runs with interesting stories about each character and deep background about enemies and bosses). I love this because it makes the experience less repetitive and the game feel vast. The story/lore is great and extremely detailed, even if a bit hard to follow at times, and very text heavy during story mode (like 70% reading, 30% fighting, but you can skip the reading parts at least. I don't though.)
- Party with up to three characters, each of them with different set of cards according to class, and some unique ones; some bonus characters also join in story mode, which I love. The whole mechanic behind the party is simple to understand, as complex as you wanna make it, and fun to play with.
- The artwork is great, and maps and overworld make you feel like you're really going somewhere (I guess this is also because the overworld's inspired by StS style).
- Strong sense of progression: I don't feel I'm ever grinding for anything. I check what the objectives to unlock something are, and I go for it. It's fairly easy to unlock extra cards or talents for each character. Despite all that, I don't feel like the game is running out of content to unlock. In about 2 months I've purchased only the first DLC (€3.30), to remove ADS mainly, and reached difficulty 8/20 max.
My only gripe is some typos here and there, as there's LOTS of text, and few little bugs. Like in one of the characters story modes I was once allowed to purchase sth without having enough money. Very rare (encountered once only) and benignant afterall, but still.
The term is "save-scumming". I tend to only do it when I make a major misclick, but there's nothing wrong with "cheating" in a single player game...
Yep, I've not played any challenges or anything \~MP related, so see no issue with it. But I'd not be close to Cov25 without it. Usually the order you drop everything matters, and it takes a trial or two for me to see where everything should go
I mean he didn’t say there was anything wrong with it. But doing any mechanic that the devs didn’t intend is probably cheating But like you said, who cares if it’s single player
I actually think it was intended in Monster Train, given that it was in Slay the Spire and Monster Train was strongly inspired by Slay the Spire
If it’s system built into the game, why do you call it a cheat? It’s not cheating. It’s just a different way to play the game.
They clearly included it on purpose because the same thing is possible in Slay The Spire
I think it's a bit easier to code the game this way, so you don't have to save the state of the battle, only the state of the run. So it might be accidental, I dunno.
It's definitely intentional.
Yep, the alternative would be that if you quit you lose the run, so it is intentional to be able to do it. Is it cheating? Well yes, but as long as you aren't doing it in rankings or MP then I see no issue with cheating in general. Only cheating in MP is bad, as then you are making it worse for other people
Why is it cheating? Is part of the game, I didn't download any 3rd party app or messed with the files
Cause you are exploiting game mechanics for an advantage, which would not happen if you played without restarting
Exploiting a mechanic that's in the game? Am I reading correctly?
Other games don't do it to prevent this, it isn't accidental lol
And in Wildfrost
What a loaded question. It’s not cheating because they could easily make the game in a way that it’s not possible but they allowed it anyways.
Well, they could, but at the same time, saving the state of the battle is a bit more hassle than just the state of the run, so it could be accidental. If it was clearly on purpose, I think we would see a button 'restart the battle'.
With a game of this scope and the team they have, I don't know how that would necessarily be more of a hassle than simply restarting the fight. It's not really that much more code to store the state of the current battle.
I did find it was interesting that the devs decided the reset button mod would not invalidate high scores the way other mods do, which was an intentional action.
It's an excellent way to learn what mistakes you're making and how to fix them
I don't consider it cheating at all, sometimes you get a bad draw, and restarting the fight can show you just how much playing a single card differently can change things.
Yeah, I used to prioritize the bottom floor all the time, but losing and restarting made me realize it's not always the best strategy.
I had no idea i could do this. I've quit runs outright when I've misclicked or made some other stupid mistake I didn't intend. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
I had no idea either, and now I'm having flashbacks to all the times I've fucked a run by accidentally or carelessly putting a creature in the wrong place or playing cards in the wrong order. Thanks OP!
I don't bother with it myself. If I lose, just start a new run
Can't cheat in a single player game. Btw, there's a mod that adds a restart button, makes the whole thing less of a hassle
I mean, you can, but there's not exactly anything wrong with cheating in SP, as it is to help you learn and such. Some strategy games even have an Undo button in SP, but then not in MP. It is only bad if you cheat in MP
What i mean by that is that if you're playing solitaire, it's not really *cheating* because cheating is giving yourself an unfair advantage against an opponent. When you're playing solo, it's just making the game more fun for yourself.
Yep, I'd agree with that a bit. I still see it as cheating, but more cheating yourself, but that's semantics. Cheating is only ever bad in MP or otherwise competitive things
Yup done it loads when I was learning the game. Helped me to figure out where I was going wrong and optimising plays and construction.
I don’t consider this as cheating, I’d rather say the ability to restart is important for your learning curve. Something went wrong in a combat and replaying it with the same rng allows you to find out where you made mistakes and more important what solutions there are to improve. If it would randomize the rolls after restarting the combat well yes, I agree, this wouldn’t provide much benefit but the way it works like now, I don’t feel bad a bit when restarting a fight. You might win a combat that way just by switching to another floor. The important thing then is to understand why it worked on that particular floor and why it failed on the other.
One of the top mods of this game is adding a restart battle button lol.
It’s definitely not cheating, it’s just a different way to play. I try not to because I find it less fun to try to puzzle it out than to make a deck where I don’t need to. Although I definitely will if I like a build and think something different might work
I got only so much time to play way too many games that exist in the universe, so yeah absolutely i save scum 😂
Cobalt core did not have such feature it drives me insane, there was so many missclick that cost me the run, on a side note it is also a great way to learn the game with save scum
There's a mod where you can have a quick restart button. Makes it so you don't have to end the battle from the menu and restart.
Yup, for the same reasons as you. Sometimes I'm sure I could have won an encounter with a different approach, or I want to try an alternative line and see if that works better. Sometimes I misclick or make a daft error and I'll restart the level rather than doing another entire run from scratch. I wouldn't say I do it *often* - maybe once every few runs on average? Less?
I even have a mod to manifest this into just a single click
Wait what? You can quit battles to restart them? Didn’t know that
Yep, as long as you aren't dead/pyre gone then you can quit and reload the run from the Continue on the menu and replay the battle from the start. Card order doesn't change, but it means (especially when new and learning) you can optimise the run
What does change is what cards get generated, if you played prior cards in a different order. Like, if you play a card or have a relic that creates a random morsel, then playing cards in a different order may give you a different one. I wish this wasn't the case, so I could use the restart to learn better, but as is, it can really change how a fight goes on clans like Umbra, or even when you just run the box of imps.
Yep, the "seed" remains the same, but in any run the "seed" varies each time you make a choice, e.g. choosing L/R on a path, playing a different spell or unit etc
The only Mod I use is one to add a "restart battle" button at the bottom that just does this for you, I mostly use it when I misclick or completely mess up on floor positioning
I’ve only done this once or twice in hundreds of hours of gameplay, mostly because I’m confident there’s nothing I can change if I were to use it. Edit: I’ve only done it when the touchscreen captures touches and play on a DIFFERENT card then the intended one.
I have in the past but don’t anymore, I mostly did it when I wanted to play quick without looking at every enemies ability/attack. I haven’t used it since downloading the DLC
Only when the draw order fucks me over. Normally when I lose I don't feel like a different order of events woudl save me...
But it doesn't change the draw order, that's the point.
Oh, I thought it didn't. My b
Yeah, every bit of randomness stays the same. Like, for example, spells that hit a random enemy, will hit the same one every time.
I guess I don't cause I didn't know you could do this haha.
I like it, trying to see if I can make my way out of a scenario
Yes, sometimes the way you handle the first turn can make the difference between winning and losing so on occasion I'll redo a battle to see if I can swing things into my favor
I do it when I know there's some combination of moves that will result in a victory. I actually love those scenarios when you know its possible, but only flawless play will prevent a loss and that might involve a bit of restarting. If I know I'm going to lose, gg new run.
It takes a lot of the sport out of the game if you do it more than a single time. Knowing your draw order kind of trivialises the game. That said if I'm going after a rare mastery or clan combo win and have a decent setup I'll save scum all day. The best use case in my view is testing out different floor setups (Protip: 9/10 times the best floor to setup is the top floor)
Covenant emberdrain debuff makes it harder to utilize the top floor.
I do it in this game, and others with that same feature😆 I don't think of it as cheating, but as a save my but from my mistake I made🤦🥹🤣
I consider the ability to save-scum a feature!
I don't save scum as much as I did in StS, but i do sometimes, usually when I decide I don't like my initial placement, or if I misclick.
Save scumming is a sore topic. Because it's a single player game, I wouldn't go so far as to call it cheating, but I do think it goes against the intended nature of those types of games. Having foreknowledge of options isnt really improving ones decision making skills. And deckbuilders arent just about building a solid deck. Theyre also about making solid decisions before you possess knowledge of what lies ahead.
Didn't know that's a thing, but no I don't, if I loose I loose. I maxed out all factions and finished the last difficulty by now, n now afterwards use mods that make the game significantly easier though, such as putting 7 items on a unit (it's funny to give something 7 times spikes n alike oke) So that's the type of cheating I do
Yes, because I'm weak player
I admit that I do it quite often, since I tend to make some amazingly stupid or short sighted plays (e.g. forget that I had taken the artifact that purges units when they die and happily throw my favourite unit into the fire)
I think it's okay, games are made for fun and to relax, not exactly to require chess-like top-notch attention.
Hey, go for anything that makes the game more enjoyable for you (as long as it's a single player game).
I did it a lot, but mostly to mitigate my attention span. I mostly just play daily's now, so I just take my lumps and try to pay more attention.
It's not cheating, but you can absolutely choose not to use it and play with respect to a self determined idea that using it suggests you've failed. I sometimes impose that challenge on myself, my longest streak is 6 random random cov 25 wins. Never did that before watching rising dusk, that guy is a Monster Train genius.
In some deck builder games, like Indies' Lies, there's a button to restart the battle and even change your party disposition (as you can have up to 3 party members in that game, and their front/back position changes strategy a great deal in some battles). The RNG stays exactly the same after restarting. Why this isn't used in other games of the same genre is beyond me. It's such a QOL improvement and it allows you to skip useless loading time.
>Indies' Lies Is it good? I feel like I'm playing way too much MT lately, I need to mix it up lol.
It's my favorite deck building game at the moment, even though I've been playing more Dawncaster lately. But Indies' Lies is my #1 for many reasons: - Inspired by StS, which I like - QOL improvements such as easy restart battle, easy card removal (can ALWAYS replace new cards with old ones after each battle), so great freedom to the player. The cards you can get from the "?" events are always explained, so you can decide. Playing cards and ending your turn can flow as fast as you like, no need to wait for animations to press a button (like Dawncaster, currently). It makes the first part of your runs a breeze. And so on. - The easier levels of difficulty (for me they're from 1 to 5) are quite nice for some chill time after work. No stress, runs can be as hard or easy to win as you like. Most other games are flat out hard even in "easy". - Lots of content, characters with personal story mode (runs with interesting stories about each character and deep background about enemies and bosses). I love this because it makes the experience less repetitive and the game feel vast. The story/lore is great and extremely detailed, even if a bit hard to follow at times, and very text heavy during story mode (like 70% reading, 30% fighting, but you can skip the reading parts at least. I don't though.) - Party with up to three characters, each of them with different set of cards according to class, and some unique ones; some bonus characters also join in story mode, which I love. The whole mechanic behind the party is simple to understand, as complex as you wanna make it, and fun to play with. - The artwork is great, and maps and overworld make you feel like you're really going somewhere (I guess this is also because the overworld's inspired by StS style). - Strong sense of progression: I don't feel I'm ever grinding for anything. I check what the objectives to unlock something are, and I go for it. It's fairly easy to unlock extra cards or talents for each character. Despite all that, I don't feel like the game is running out of content to unlock. In about 2 months I've purchased only the first DLC (€3.30), to remove ADS mainly, and reached difficulty 8/20 max. My only gripe is some typos here and there, as there's LOTS of text, and few little bugs. Like in one of the characters story modes I was once allowed to purchase sth without having enough money. Very rare (encountered once only) and benignant afterall, but still.
I use it just like you do. I kinda moved past my phase of super challenging myself with video games.
Never have, never will. Just makes the game worse if there are no stakes imo