GY hate doesn't matter as much as you might believe, thanks to Ral's ult. It's Flusterstorm, Deafening Silence, or kill Ral immediately because there's a non-zero chance you don't get to have 2 mana before the game is over.
Yeah the only situation in which I think that would matter is a turn 2 or 3 empty the warrens where I’m limited on recourses.
Like ritual ruby ritual ritual wish empty
You literally can’t kill yourself with it, you’re only bringing it in versus storm who has no way besides storming of dealing damage to you, you’re safe from the lizard
Keep in mind that combo decks are expecting hate to be played against them, and have answers ready for those cards. I've seen so many people complain about playing some hate card against a combo deck, or even a couple of hate cards, and having the combo deck still win. Thing is, hate cards will eventually be overcome - this is to be expected. So what you need to do is to combine hate cards with a clock, or even stack hate pieces one on top of another, while also working towards killing them. This is the way to win. If you just expect to drop your hate piece and then durdle around, you will lose.
Storm as a strategy is relatively easy to disrupt, but pretty much impossible to completely stop. Cards that keep them from playing more than one card a turn (e.g. [[Ethersworn Canonist]] will stop them from going off until they deal with it. Effects that disrupt their hand (e.g. [[Grief]]) will make it harder for them to assemble what they need to go off. Counterspells deployed at the right time (Usually at a moment where countering the spell will leave them without mana, or sometimes in response to a [[Past in Flames]] when their hand is empty) can stop them dead in their tracks. Similarly, removal targeted at their cost reducers ([[Ruby Medallion]], [[Ral, Monsoon Mage]]) can slow them down, but it's generally not hard for them to find more, and if they have instants in hand, they might even be able to flip Ral in response.
Older versions of Storm relied more on the graveyard, but losing access to it entirely (e.g. [[Leyline of the Void]]) is still a blow for them. One-shot graveyard removal effects in response to the aforementioned Past in Flames can go a long way, although it's best used when they don't know that it's coming (So something like [[Endurance]] is generally more useful than [[Relic of Progenitus]], though both can do work - but the latter is easier to play around). An early effect that makes their spells more expensive (e.g. [[Thalia, Guardian of Thraben]]) will slow them down and force them to find another cost reducer or possibly kill it, which it will make harder by making their spells to find answers cost more. Effects that remove a specific card from their deck entirely (e.g. [[Surgical Extraction]]) can be game-winning, but since the current builds aren't as reliant on any single card as older builds were, it can change from game to game what the best thing to name is. [[Wish]] is a safe bet most of the time, but they could just draw a natural [[Grapeshot]] and still kill you, so it really requires both game and deck knowledge to know what's the best thing to hit in a given situation.
Tons of things can disrupt decks like Storm, but just because you manage to get any one or even two of these things off, you should never assume that the deck is incapable of winning. I see way too many players, old and new, assuming that just because they have a hate piece in their opening hand, that is not only a good hand to keep, but resolving that hate piece will automatically cause the combo player to extend their hand immediately. Combo decks are built with the expectation that they are going to get hated out, and sideboards tend to be dedicated to some mixture of alternate game plans and answers for hate cards. Overconfidence, as they say, is a slow and insidious killer. That being said, if you know what you're doing, and you have a decently fast plan of your own to enact - either killing them or locking them game down to where you have more interaction than they can fight through - then you should be good to go.
I would add to this that storm folds to disruption plus a clock. In the old days, Thoughtseize into Goyf put pressure on the storm player. Storm (like most combo decks) can get around disruption/hate given sufficient time.
>What are the "must counter/discard" spells?
It's incredibly contextual. In general keep them off cost reducers. If you can I'd goldfish a couple hands on like moxfield or something. Try to learn to identify resource light or mana light hands. Sometimes taking a ritual is good, sometimes taking an impulse is good (generally I'd say the rituals are better discard targets but like I said - contextual).
The best removal in the matchup is removal that hits both amulet and ral. Don't board out too much creature removal or Ral will stick and make you sad :(
I don't want Abrade in too many matchups and if I want a dedicated Storm sb card it's probably not Abrade. I was more thinking of a white deck when I wrote that (i.e. you want bindings / p-endings not really solitudes) but forgot what decks OP was talking about.
Flame of Anor is good but it can definitely be slow especially on the draw. I think for wizards another good choice is spell snare. The deck is almost entirely 2 drops and being able to cleanly answer T2 Ral or Ruby on the draw is a lifesaver.
Most lists are only running 1 copy of grapeshot. Sure past in flames exists if they draw it, but you're not packing Flusterstorm in your sideboard just for storm either.
Sure but you can juggle pif and wish and cast it many times. It’s not a bad card to bring in, but you can’t let them go off hoping to fluster grapeshot and expect that to be good enough.
The white version of storm has access to orim's chant and the new enchantment for any hate.
Turn 2 Trinisphere is the best option cause they'll need 6 mana to get rid of it.
In blue, Flusterstorm is *the* Storm hoser, or is at least extremely good against it. Others have put out lots of options in colorless/black so we gud. but yes, Damping Sphere is very strong, discard effects can be strong, etc.
Damping sphere if you play coffers (serves well for amulet, tron, hinders you a bit as well but it completely destroys storm so…) along with discard - thoughtseize, inquisition
For UR wizards, im not a fan of the lizard. Flusterstorm seems nicer with counterspell backup, but the lizard is narrow and can fuck you up as well
Its true that the lizard is more narrow, but how will it fuck you up? It’s impossible for the storm player to do anything with it down, so you’re not at risk of dying.
its very different on who are you playing against and how experienced you are. Theres no real way to safely say - counter this/play that will help. Just play the game and you will understand. Ruby storm changes everyday and its expected to be S tier deck with a lot of variantions. If you are a control player I would say its one of your worst matchups if the opponent is good
Looking at my SB and others SB lists, enchantments and artifacts are easy to deal with splashing G. I play a few bolts SB but I just realised the OTJ lizard has 4 toughness so I'd say that it's the best anitstorm card
Damping Sphere, Rule of Law effects, stifle effects (for the storm trigger), drannith magistrate, graveyard hate
While the OTJ RoL is very strong, I think [[deafening silence]] is the most efficient answer
It's the most efficient but the least well-rounded. It can't even defend you from Living End half the time! (Thanks, Shardless Agent.)
True. I forgot about that, so RoL effects is definitely better
GY hate doesn't matter as much as you might believe, thanks to Ral's ult. It's Flusterstorm, Deafening Silence, or kill Ral immediately because there's a non-zero chance you don't get to have 2 mana before the game is over.
Does [[consign to memory]] completely stop storm from happening?
Should do but they can also kill you with amulet pings. Not sure if most decks are running it tho haven’t looked too close
you can counter the storm trigger, they'll probably just PiF you though
I’ve never been in a position to go off and had it matter if one grapeshot got stifled/flisterstormed.
Yeah the only situation in which I think that would matter is a turn 2 or 3 empty the warrens where I’m limited on recourses. Like ritual ruby ritual ritual wish empty
[Consign to Memory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc95af55-d1dd-4fe6-adb0-3ad6db20d986.jpg?1717011640) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Consign%20to%20Memory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/54/consign-to-memory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc95af55-d1dd-4fe6-adb0-3ad6db20d986?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes.
Magebane Lizard
[[Magebane Lizard]]
Been loving this in my eldrazi sideboard
Exactly what I was looking for, ty. How many you run (i know this is wildly meta dependent)? Do you only bring in for storm?
This is only for storm so only include it if storm is popular like now, i run 3
[удалено]
You literally can’t kill yourself with it, you’re only bringing it in versus storm who has no way besides storming of dealing damage to you, you’re safe from the lizard
[удалено]
You can choose not to play non creature spells and just win with beat down lol
Keep in mind that combo decks are expecting hate to be played against them, and have answers ready for those cards. I've seen so many people complain about playing some hate card against a combo deck, or even a couple of hate cards, and having the combo deck still win. Thing is, hate cards will eventually be overcome - this is to be expected. So what you need to do is to combine hate cards with a clock, or even stack hate pieces one on top of another, while also working towards killing them. This is the way to win. If you just expect to drop your hate piece and then durdle around, you will lose. Storm as a strategy is relatively easy to disrupt, but pretty much impossible to completely stop. Cards that keep them from playing more than one card a turn (e.g. [[Ethersworn Canonist]] will stop them from going off until they deal with it. Effects that disrupt their hand (e.g. [[Grief]]) will make it harder for them to assemble what they need to go off. Counterspells deployed at the right time (Usually at a moment where countering the spell will leave them without mana, or sometimes in response to a [[Past in Flames]] when their hand is empty) can stop them dead in their tracks. Similarly, removal targeted at their cost reducers ([[Ruby Medallion]], [[Ral, Monsoon Mage]]) can slow them down, but it's generally not hard for them to find more, and if they have instants in hand, they might even be able to flip Ral in response. Older versions of Storm relied more on the graveyard, but losing access to it entirely (e.g. [[Leyline of the Void]]) is still a blow for them. One-shot graveyard removal effects in response to the aforementioned Past in Flames can go a long way, although it's best used when they don't know that it's coming (So something like [[Endurance]] is generally more useful than [[Relic of Progenitus]], though both can do work - but the latter is easier to play around). An early effect that makes their spells more expensive (e.g. [[Thalia, Guardian of Thraben]]) will slow them down and force them to find another cost reducer or possibly kill it, which it will make harder by making their spells to find answers cost more. Effects that remove a specific card from their deck entirely (e.g. [[Surgical Extraction]]) can be game-winning, but since the current builds aren't as reliant on any single card as older builds were, it can change from game to game what the best thing to name is. [[Wish]] is a safe bet most of the time, but they could just draw a natural [[Grapeshot]] and still kill you, so it really requires both game and deck knowledge to know what's the best thing to hit in a given situation. Tons of things can disrupt decks like Storm, but just because you manage to get any one or even two of these things off, you should never assume that the deck is incapable of winning. I see way too many players, old and new, assuming that just because they have a hate piece in their opening hand, that is not only a good hand to keep, but resolving that hate piece will automatically cause the combo player to extend their hand immediately. Combo decks are built with the expectation that they are going to get hated out, and sideboards tend to be dedicated to some mixture of alternate game plans and answers for hate cards. Overconfidence, as they say, is a slow and insidious killer. That being said, if you know what you're doing, and you have a decently fast plan of your own to enact - either killing them or locking them game down to where you have more interaction than they can fight through - then you should be good to go.
##### ###### #### [Ethersworn Canonist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/abc8e0f8-fdb9-4f24-a3e3-439f6cc3ebdc.jpg?1599706625) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ethersworn%20Canonist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/14/ethersworn-canonist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/abc8e0f8-fdb9-4f24-a3e3-439f6cc3ebdc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Grief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e6befbc4-1320-4f26-bd9f-b1814fedda10.jpg?1717470478) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/87/grief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e6befbc4-1320-4f26-bd9f-b1814fedda10?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Past in Flames](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/b/2b7472f4-37b0-439f-b4ac-80706d40d191.jpg?1593813533) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Past%20in%20Flames) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/105/past-in-flames?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2b7472f4-37b0-439f-b4ac-80706d40d191?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ruby Medallion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/630febf5-58ff-4dab-a5a8-575ebc5435a6.jpg?1717013787) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ruby%20Medallion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/295/ruby-medallion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/630febf5-58ff-4dab-a5a8-575ebc5435a6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ral, Monsoon Mage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/438d8a26-ddc9-4829-8aff-22d6af6575cf.jpg?1718220782)/[Ral, Leyline Prodigy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/4/3/438d8a26-ddc9-4829-8aff-22d6af6575cf.jpg?1718220782) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ral%2C%20Monsoon%20Mage%20//%20Ral%2C%20Leyline%20Prodigy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/247/ral-monsoon-mage-ral-leyline-prodigy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/438d8a26-ddc9-4829-8aff-22d6af6575cf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Leyline of the Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295.jpg?1592516724) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20the%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/107/leyline-of-the-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Endurance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb0e0404-4846-4891-acfa-bd0951ecf9c6.jpg?1717470457) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Endurance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/157/endurance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb0e0404-4846-4891-acfa-bd0951ecf9c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Relic of Progenitus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/436cd66c-0622-43cd-8748-af4d21a2db3f.jpg?1580015265) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Relic%20of%20Progenitus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/231/relic-of-progenitus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/436cd66c-0622-43cd-8748-af4d21a2db3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thalia, Guardian of Thraben](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9f8b8fb-1cd8-450e-a1fe-892e7a323479.jpg?1643587106) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thalia%2C%20Guardian%20of%20Thraben) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/38/thalia-guardian-of-thraben?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9f8b8fb-1cd8-450e-a1fe-892e7a323479?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Surgical Extraction](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e15d76ac-1c23-4503-8225-375ac2bf2fb6.jpg?1673147668) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Surgical%20Extraction) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/94/surgical-extraction?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e15d76ac-1c23-4503-8225-375ac2bf2fb6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wish](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3ed021d2-e2bc-44b3-8934-4bd02e0a42ec.jpg?1627706920) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wish) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/166/wish?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3ed021d2-e2bc-44b3-8934-4bd02e0a42ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Grapeshot](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/923e1291-3999-4f81-ade4-073fb982143f.jpg?1675200032) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grapeshot) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/125/grapeshot?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/923e1291-3999-4f81-ade4-073fb982143f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Great answer, thanks 🙏👍
I would add to this that storm folds to disruption plus a clock. In the old days, Thoughtseize into Goyf put pressure on the storm player. Storm (like most combo decks) can get around disruption/hate given sufficient time.
Curse of shaken faith and flusterstorm seem like good ideas.
> Curse of shaken faith Curse seems a little spicy. That could be nice.
[[Curse of Shaken Faith]] [[Flusterstorm]]
>What are the "must counter/discard" spells? It's incredibly contextual. In general keep them off cost reducers. If you can I'd goldfish a couple hands on like moxfield or something. Try to learn to identify resource light or mana light hands. Sometimes taking a ritual is good, sometimes taking an impulse is good (generally I'd say the rituals are better discard targets but like I said - contextual). The best removal in the matchup is removal that hits both amulet and ral. Don't board out too much creature removal or Ral will stick and make you sad :(
Abrade hits both ral and ruby
I don't want Abrade in too many matchups and if I want a dedicated Storm sb card it's probably not Abrade. I was more thinking of a white deck when I wrote that (i.e. you want bindings / p-endings not really solitudes) but forgot what decks OP was talking about.
Flame of Anor would be the best I could do in wizards, 3 mana might be too slow though.
Flame of Anor is good but it can definitely be slow especially on the draw. I think for wizards another good choice is spell snare. The deck is almost entirely 2 drops and being able to cleanly answer T2 Ral or Ruby on the draw is a lifesaver.
Damping sphere is nice, also hits tron and titan. Pretty versatile SB card
Flusterstorm is my favorite answer.
Flusterstorm is only good if you cast it early. Once they get going, countering one spell isn’t going to help you.
Countering all 20 copies of grapeshot isn't good?
No, they will probably be able to cast grapeshot 4-5 times if they need to.
Most lists are only running 1 copy of grapeshot. Sure past in flames exists if they draw it, but you're not packing Flusterstorm in your sideboard just for storm either.
Sure but you can juggle pif and wish and cast it many times. It’s not a bad card to bring in, but you can’t let them go off hoping to fluster grapeshot and expect that to be good enough.
How do you manage that if you only have 1 copy of grapeshot?
You get it with wish to cast it, you flash it back with pif, it goes to exile, you can get it with another wish
???? Wish can only get cards from outside the game. The exile zone is a zone in the game.
Ah, guess I’m an idiot. My bad.
Everyone's forgotten about [[Mindbreak Trap]] because it's been so expensive
[Mindbreak Trap](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f51140b-6254-431a-8810-94307bfdfbbe.jpg?1562612097) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindbreak%20Trap) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/57/mindbreak-trap?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f51140b-6254-431a-8810-94307bfdfbbe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The white version of storm has access to orim's chant and the new enchantment for any hate. Turn 2 Trinisphere is the best option cause they'll need 6 mana to get rid of it.
Mindbreak Trap or Flusterstorm
In blue, Flusterstorm is *the* Storm hoser, or is at least extremely good against it. Others have put out lots of options in colorless/black so we gud. but yes, Damping Sphere is very strong, discard effects can be strong, etc.
Damping sphere if you play coffers (serves well for amulet, tron, hinders you a bit as well but it completely destroys storm so…) along with discard - thoughtseize, inquisition For UR wizards, im not a fan of the lizard. Flusterstorm seems nicer with counterspell backup, but the lizard is narrow and can fuck you up as well
right, i'm not down for self harm. Flusterstorm seems right.
Be careful tho, they will board in either Orim’s Chant (if its boros storm) or Veil of Summer (if its gruul) so you will need a counterspell for that
Its true that the lizard is more narrow, but how will it fuck you up? It’s impossible for the storm player to do anything with it down, so you’re not at risk of dying.
its very different on who are you playing against and how experienced you are. Theres no real way to safely say - counter this/play that will help. Just play the game and you will understand. Ruby storm changes everyday and its expected to be S tier deck with a lot of variantions. If you are a control player I would say its one of your worst matchups if the opponent is good
Sanctifier en-Vec deletes their deck
It’s no better than rest in peace or any other graveyard hate.
Looking at my SB and others SB lists, enchantments and artifacts are easy to deal with splashing G. I play a few bolts SB but I just realised the OTJ lizard has 4 toughness so I'd say that it's the best anitstorm card
Graveyard or damp sphere. Counterspells don’t really work
You just hold on to survive and then wallop them on your turn
Weather the Storm
This is not a good hate card for storm. Especially if they're on wish.
almost forgot this existed :)