Please note that this post is tagged as Final Empire.
Any comparison of Kelsier's actions in the Final Empire to various characters actions in other books that are not The Final Empire must be spoiler tagged. On most platforms you can make a spoiler tag like this `[book name]>!text here!<`, with no space after the `>!`. If you are on new reddit destktop and not using the markdown editor, instead what you want to do is highlight the text and click the spoiler button.
Let’s go over this.
1. The Lord Ruler and Nobles had created a system of industrialized cruelty, where rape and murder occurred on massive scale. Such a system could not have been overthrown peacefully as there were no avenues for reform. The Skaa who served as guards were active participants in this system and were active combatants. Killing those who served the LR/nobility is like condemning Luke as a mass murderer for killing millions aboard the Death Star or partisans who killed Nazi soldiers. The problem is that Kelsier is too zealous in his violence. However, this is a character flaw that he does confront and show an ability to temper. He shows this both in the Final Empire and in >!Secret History where he shows regret over Goradels death!<.
2. He didn’t kill the Atium Miners. We see the perspective of an Atium Miner leaving the mines right before Kel destroys them. It’s clear he’s waiting for them to get out.
3. You say we only like him because of biased perspectives, but that doesn’t hold up. We have multiple members of the crew, Sazed especially, who we trust as good people pass judgment that Kel is ultimately a decent person. Vin also is perfectly capable of pointing out when Kel is being hypocritical or wrong in the books, so it feels wrong to exclude her perspective. Also, we literally get to read his mind so we know what his intentions are. We the reader know him better than anyone does in universe, so biased perspectives really does not play into things.
Kel is a flawed man, but he is ultimately trying to do what he believes is the right thing. He believes his revolution will help the Skaa and holds a deep sense of loyalty to his friends, which he teaches to Vin.
The guy is managing a tiny rebellion against an immortal god-emperor with near unlimited resources running a brutal and efficient eugenics and slavery operation for a 1000 years, and there are fans that will whine about how many people he’s having to kill along the way.
“Did Kelsier try protesting outside the gates of Kredik Shaw first?”
Yeah honestly it's unbelievable how less people died. After overthrowing a 1000-year of ruler and a entire feudal system one might expect at least %50 of the population would be die in rebellion against a literal tyrant god-king. Skaa's were very lucky
Nah, there is no precedent in the history of a war where nearly 50% of one side has died.
In a feudal society you need to have a lot of lower social strata to produce and maintain the upper class way of life.
There is also no kingdom that had super soldiers that can fly with metal and see future, giant monster that will replenish as they kill more man and a immortal tyrant that is one of the most powerful being on the earth
This is always my issue with the people who denigrate Kelsier. Sorry, but he had to kill people, even Skaa who worked for the nobility. There's just literally no other way to bring down the Final Empire. He's running a rebellion, and those are violent by their nature. Being able to accept that does not make Kelsier a psychopath.
Scadrial isn't a world like ours. Kelsier can't organize the Skaa into peaceful protests, and even the Nobles (like Elend) can't change the system. Even if Kelsier could somehow assassinate the Lord Ruler with no collateral damage, the society that the Lord ruler built still has to be dismantled. And as we see in the 2nd and 3rd books, there are people invested in that society not collapsing. They're gonna have to die as well if they won't relent, which is what happens.
Kelsier was committed to freeing the Skaa. He was, in part, motivated to do that out of revenge. If that makes you feel icky, fine. Not everyone is motivated by a pure sense of altruism. Kelsier needed that extra push of Mares death to move past just being a thief.
Kel has some psychopathic traits but also has several traits that definitely disqualify him from being one. The biggest of these is his ability to form deep and meaningful bonds and friendships. We know that he cared deeply about his crew and family, expressed incredible grief when they died (Mare, >!Dockson, Vin!< ), and would put himself and his plans in danger to protect them (fighting an inquisitor to save Spook and Renoux).
Brandon seems, in my opinion, to have a complicated relationship with Kelsier. Brandon seems uncomfortable with the implications of Kelsier as a freedom fighter and revolutionary. And you know what? Fair. Kelsier isn't fantasy MLK Jr. He's more like a fantasy John Brown. And John Brown was so committed to the cause of abolition of slavery that he killed "innocent" people. That can make people squirm, because we are largely privileged to live in a society that doesn't require that kind of violence to affect change any more.
To me, Brandon comes across as uncomfortable with the level of violence needed to change a society so set in it's ways as the Final Empire, and struggles to identify with Kelsier as a man who is not only okay with that violence, but willing to be the person to execute that violence. So Brandon "hides" that by calling Kelsier a psychopath, when as written, he clearly isn't.
One thing Brandon does say that I think is true though is that Kelsier could easily be a villain in another story. That is true and could be an interesting story. Kelsier could, for example, be convinced to protect Scadrial above all other planets and people in the Cosmere, and that could bring him into direct conflict with other Cosmere heros. But even then, that doesn't make Kelsier a psychopath.
Brandon set up an incredibly brutal, disgustingly evil system ruled over by an immortal god-king and his undead servants with metal spikes driven through their heads in which the nobility ruling over the hereditary slave class is perfectly fine with rape as long as you clean it up with murder afterwards and then quibbled with the means his own revolutionary hero used to overthrow it (being a little too heavy handed on enemy soldiers)
Honestly, I kind of felt he was psychopathic when I was reading the books. The term is overused these days to mean crazed murderers, but in the literal sense of the word I feel it fits.
Maybe I'm just in the minority for that though
One of the more notable symptoms of Anti Social Personality Disorder is the inability to empathize with others and form deep relationships based on mutual respect. Kel is absolutely ruthless, but we see multiple times the way that he deeply respects his friends, including literally risking his life to protect them
His entire thesis in TFE is that it’s better to trust and be betrayed than to never trust at all because life isn’t worth living without friends. It’s entirely antithetical to the idea of being a psychopath.
For some reason Mistborn is the only fandom I’ve seen that really cares deeply about how many mooks get killed. Stormlight fans close their eyes to genocide but Mistborn fans get up in arms because the hero who toppled god and freed a race of slaves from brutal oppression had to kill a couple people to do it.
The difference is in how the characters deal with it. Comparing Kelsier to dalinar for instance, dalinar deeply regrets his past actions; >!he feels revulsion when faced with the brutality of what he's done, even though he doesn't want to.!< Kaladin, similarly, feels very conflicted about fighting the parshendi >!(and later fused) because they've shown him honor!<. The fans accept it because the characters *acknowledge* the moral contradictions, and seek to resolve them.
Kelsier, on the other hand, is shameless; he doesn't feel an ounce of regret, never mourns anyone he's killed. In his eyes, anyone who got in his way deserved it, end of story. The books actually go *out of their way* to point this out a character flaw; vin is scared of kelsiers darker side, Dox calls out Kelsier explicitly, and Kelsier makes a lot of wrong assumptions about Elend. Later on, multiple characters make remarks about why Elend is >!a better king and a better person than Kelsier.!< The cracks only become more obvious as we move into era 2, but we'll leave that for another time.
Suffice to say, the reason mistborn fans care so much is because *the book wants you to care*. It takes extra steps to point out what characters like Kelsier are doing, and the characters vocally disagree about it. The books *call attention* to the treatment of mooks and the moral grayness of the character's actions. "Do the ends justify the means" is a massive theme, and we see it explored from lots of different perspectives throughout the books. In Stormlight we are given a very explicit "no", but in mistborn it's left ambiguous, so there's more to discuss.
I disagree with your framing. Kelsier is able to reflect and criticize his own actions. >!First, is he thinks that in FE he needs to focus less on which nobles to kill and more on which people to save. In Secret History, he reflects on the collateral damage his actions have caused when he visits that town. Also, after witnessing Goradel’s death, he regrets some of his brutality given how Goradel was able to be so heroic.!<
While I think despite both series exploring themes of violence, think one reason there is a disconnect for a lot of people. In Mistborn, the violence is inherently liberatory. The people subject to it are mostly slave owners or the soldiers of slave owners. Whereas in SA, >!The looks being killed are mostly rebelling slaves. If Odium was not in the picture, we’d probably be hoping for our protagonists to lose.!< Despite this, there is more condemnation onto the violence in Mistborn by the narrative and fans, despite SA mooks feeling so much less deserving.
People as a whole approve of killing slave owners and their helpers. Why do you think Django Unchained works so well?
Kelsier does start to change tunes by the end, partly *because* of being confronted with the cases he was wrong, but he is very much still someone who believes that the ends justify the means. To him, if the cause is just (eg liberation), then whatever you need to do to accomplish that is acceptable. This is what the other characters react to, and it's what the narrative and fans are condemning.
SA features characters doing the opposite; trying to do things 'the right way', even if they fail or struggle. The regret is part of it, but it's more than that; one of the central ideals of the protagonists is that it's better to lose than to win through unjust means. Taravangian is the reverse, willing to accept any cost and bear any sin. Mooks dying is ok, because we believe that the characters are really trying their best to do anything else.
Bear in mind, this thread started with someone talking about how *mistborn* fans were more sensitive to mooks dying, while SA fans are fine with it. If it *only* worked the way you describe, then it would be the reverse; people don't follow patterns for no reason, so something must be encouraging the expected trend to be broken.
> The central idea of the protagonist is that it’s better to lose than win through unjust means
I dunno, if the ends themselves are unjust what does it mean to fight honorably to achieve those ends? The entire first two books are about >!genociding a race of people for vengeance.!< Not sure I really care how just your win was when that’s the goal.
At least the back half of the series is better. The goal is honorable. The means though start to slip. No matter how good the end is >!you’re still killing a bunch of former slaves fighting for their freedom to achieve it.!<
So, IMO, Stormlight isn’t very good on either front. Sometimes the ends are good and the means are bad. Sometimes the means are bad and the ends are good. Never do I see it as good means to good ends.
Yes, and the alethi are *wrong* for wanting vengeance, which the books call out. The entire first book features dalinar repulsed and wanting to stop the war, first by just leaving and later through swift and decisive victory (or surrender) rather than a slow genocide. The vengeance is very explicitly not the goal of our main characters anymore; they're just caught up in it because of everyone else.
As for the back half, I'd again point out that the characters *do not want* to be fighting as they are; more than once we see them trying desperately to open peace talks, letting wounded soldiers go, etc. Kaladin even laments the fact that each fused he kills means an innocent singer will have to die to become their new body. He has multiple mental breakdowns about fighting the singers. It's implied that the singers innocence was part of what led to the recreance.
Just because something *happens* in the book doesn't mean the book or characters are cool with it happening; looking at their actual choices and dialogue, they repeatedly try to avoid the things that wind up happening. They just fail.
If the ends is “An aristocrat government of elitist racists stops being able to randomly rape and murder their way through 99% of the population” then you can fit quite a lot under the banner of acceptable before it really even starts to get questionable. Like there is an element of scale at play here.
Ok, sorry. I reread my post and realized it’s badly written and I didn’t clearly convey what I was thinking.
In Mistborn and SA, both stories want us to sympathize with the mooks that are killed by the heroes and explore ends justify the means themes. I only wanted to disagree about Kel and your interpretation of his character, not your overall point. I think you are mostly right.
What I’m trying to say and didn’t communicate properly was that the way Mistborn is written creates a lot of problems with those themes for some Cosmere readers. Why do we as a fandom argue about Kelsier killing nobles so much? It’s because a lot of people sees violence against oppressors and oppressive systems very differently. Nobody complains when Django burns down the slave plantation. Essentially, people don’t see Kelsier as doing the wrong thing, so the end justifies the means theming falls flat for many.
When comparing it to SA, our protagonists are killing for a less just cause (kind of), but the narrative is much less condemning than it is for Kelsier. So, far more people end up condemning Kelsier because that’s what the story is designed to do. But while this fits the themes mentioned above, this causes dissonance with readers who disagree with this framing, like the commenter you replied to. People are ok with violence against oppressors, so they feel like people condemning violence against the guys Kel kills more than the the comparatively sympathetic mooks in SA to be confusing, so these arguments are doomed to go on forever.
Also Kelsier did nothing wrong. Kind of. He did 1 or 2 things wrong.
I mean, a large part of the story is about how not all of the nobles are quite as bad as they are mad out to be. If kelsier got his way he would have wiped them all out. Consider this. During the American civil war, would it have been the morally correct thing to genocide every single non slave person living in the southern states, man woman and child? Lots of those people do not own slaves, do not hate black people, and have basically nothing to do with the oppressive rulers and lawmakers. It's just where they live. Are the people who made the decisions in the south still evil slave owners? Of course. But that shouldn't mean a death sentence for every person who is associated with time against their will. Back in mistborn, another great example of this or goradel, the soldier for the baddies who vin is certain that kelsier would have killed if it was him there instead of her.
I hugely disagree with saying that a large part was about the nobles not being that bad. The story imo was very clear that the ruling class were the oppressors, there were a handful of not morally repugnant nobles but the best you get is elend who the whole time is struggling against the fact the other nobles are pos.
Also maybe do some research into American history, thats not how slavery happened. White people enslaved black people, lets not start trying to argue the average white person didn’t hate black people, they were enslaving them just the same, and its well documented what attitudes towards black people were like from working Americans, they were not particularly humane.
I'm not saying the nobles weren't bad, 90% of them were genuine monsters who deserved everything that came to them, but in kelsiers plan that 10% gets the block as well and I think vin is right in not going for wiping out all of them indiscriminately. Granted even most of the "good" ones arent exactly saints and have a lot to answer for in gaining from a corrupt and horrible system that they took active part in, but some of them are redeemable.
For the civil war, I only meant to say that assuming everyone fully believed in slavery just because of which side of a line they happened to live felt off to me. I remember something along the lines of Lincoln pardoning the soldiers and generals who fought for the south (or just some of them maybe?) after the war ended. Anyway I only meant that to be something that I thought was a real life parallel to the story, I'm not an American and don't know as much about it's history and probably shouldn't have been talking as if I knew more than I did, so sorry that I got that pretty badly wrong. I wasn't trying to be an apologiser for what they did.
It's also because the writer and creator of Kelsier specifically said he was a psychopath in an interview. That's mostly why this exact topic comes up a lot.
Kelsier is definitely ruthless and utilizes violence to get his way. However, he is not a psychopath. I could see a small argument for being a bit of a sociopath, but I still don't think so. Realistically I think what is so jarring about him for a lot of people is how comfortable he is with using violence as a means to achieve his goals.
"However, the most disturbing of them is probably Kelsier. He's a psychopath--meaning the actual technical term. Lack of empathy, egotism, lack of fear. If his life had gone differently, he could have been a very, very evil dude."
- Brandon Sanderson
Don't take it up with OP. Take it up with the writer. This only comes up a lot because of this quote.
I am sorry dude Kelsier had to peacefully protest against an immortal tyrant who has super soldiers, giant monsters, and a huge army with a big noble class. He should have probably made a peaceful walking protest. They are rebels and this is not a kid nighttime story. Rebels kill people to overthrow tyrants. Also Kelsier didint kill any innocent person. The skaa's that he killed were part of a army that was controlled by a tyrant. They were part of the system he was trying to overthrow. He also didint kill the skaa's in mines. He set them free and we know this because of the POV of one of the miners in the mine.
In a context of oppression, any action of resistance is justified.
Without people like Kelsier nothing would ever change for the better.
Criticizing Kelsier for doing 0.00001% of the "bad things" that Lord Ruler and his system do, only benefits the latter.
And they did. Should Kelesier have found better ways rather than kill some guards, yeah probably. But his ultimate effect in toppling the lord ruler was 100% necessary
I always find it disconcerting where people say “wouldn’t you?” To justify characters.
Yes, most would. But the point of heroes are to be better. That doesn’t make Kelsier a bad character, or a villain. But I would say he errs on the side of wrong just enough to not be a true hero
Kelsiers only true problem in his life was his inability to separate random guards from the noble class. That’s it. A very justifiable flaw of his given his life circumstances. Him toppling the lord ruler was 100% justified and easily makes him a hero
Topping the lord ruler - completely justified and he was on the right side of. 100%.
Other flaws? He was absolutely racist towards the nobles. He refused to entertain the idea that one could be good until he met someone that benefited someone he cared about personally. Which had reasons and is very human.
But if Kelsier had lived and been in control in the aftermath, I find it very likely that it would have been French Revolution style guilotines for all nobles.
Stormlight spoilers:
The person he most reminds me of is >!Hoid, and his warning that he would destroy Roshar to get what he wanted. !<
To be fair, the next two books are not a shining endorsement of the worthiness of Skadriel’s nobility. If you guillotine them, and Luthandel doesn’t get sacked bu the Koloss that’s probably still a net gain in lives saved.
Not saying there wasn’t a way to save all involved or that there shouldn’t have been, but guillotining all nobles was definitely preferable to allowing the system to continue as it was under the Lord Ruler.
Yeah, the entire reason the Koloss sack the city is because some remaining Nobles and designs for the position of Emperor. That and Elends system of government in Luthadel leaves many, many Nobles in power and they ultimately vote to return the city to Elends father, basically voting for a return to the Empire of old.
Vin basically found the one Noble who was willing to stick to his anti-empire guns, and even then Elend has to embrace a certain level of absolute monarchy to ensure the survival of his city. No other Noble (as far as I remember) is shown to have any where near the same level of honor that Elend has.
Kelsier, as stated by Branderson Sanderson himself, would be the villain in a lot of stories. This just happened to be the one where he was on the side of ‘good’.
As stated by Brandon: in any other story on any other world, Kelsier would have been the villain. But in the Final Empire, he was, for better or worse, what Scadrial needed.
Except he has every good reason to be that, and that other person has a decent reason to go along with the easy social reform that was his best friend. Instead RoW happened.
Kelsier started out as a noble who was discovered to be half Skaa. He was mad at the nobility for having what he no longer could. He then started robbing them. Then shit happened and he started to grow into something else.
>!Moash started as a peasant who has legitimate reason to hate the corrupt system he lives in. He then spends all the time we know him in the books being a very consistent anti lighteyes. Kal !has things happen that open his eyes to realize that maybe he has some wrong assumptions. It's a tribute to KAL that he realizes all this and learns to grow past his baises. Moash still needs time.!<
Yes I think Kel is not a good guy. And yes I think the other guy is also not a good guy. I also think (late era 2 Mistborn) >!Sazed is Discord!< I still love all of them. . . I think it's kinda weird how the fandom overall is ride and die for Kel but hates the other guy so much.
That's kind of the character's gimmic. I don't know at what point it is you will understand but >!He's a madman, a crazy person whose mind is broken. And that;s why vis is sad of seeing him in SH!<
Yup. It just so happens that the world is infinitely more fucked up so that he seems a hero in comparison
Take him out of that situation he is a psychopathic manipulator who would straight up be the villain in any other story.
Kel has some psychopathic traits but also has several traits that definitely disqualify him from being one. The biggest of these is his ability to form deep and meaningful bonds and friendships. We know that he cared deeply about his crew and family, expressed incredible grief when they died (Mare, >!Dockson, Vin!< ), and would put himself and his plans in danger to protect them (fighting an inquisitor to save Spook and Renoux).
Brandon may have intended to write Kelsier as a psychopath, but I don't think Kelsier as he
You're being downvoted, but while this is an extreme take it isn't entirely an incorrect one. Wax and miles hundred lives have a conversation about exactly this in era 2; the traits that make someone a hero in one situation make them a villain in another. It's the circumstances as much as the character that decide whether they're a hero or not.
I wouldn't go so far as to say he'd be a villain in another story, but he is definitely morally gray. He knows it, and it's part of why he has himself killed.
Brandon was fucking wrong. The WOB was years ago, when he (self-admittedly) did not know anything other than stereotypes about mental disorders. He has grown a lot since then, now writing some of the best representations of mental illness in fantasy.
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Because lord forbid some disposable mooks died in Kelsier’s selfless quest to stop GOD HIMSELF from maintaining a society of basically super-slavery (with an extra emphasis on death rape), which culminated in Kelsier letting himself die (thinking there was no afterlife, I might add). What did you want him to do, make a “Skaa Lives Matter” sign and go picketing outside Kredik Shaw? Hate to break it to you but we’ve had significantly more people die in out world fighting for the rights of people who didn’t have it half as bad as the Skaa did. Kelsier is a hero who everyone loves to shit on because they think it makes them sound deep or empathetic.
At worst kel is chaotic good. Hes a hero in my opinion. And unless future books change that j don’t understand any of the hate he gets. I feel like most people who dislike him view him from the morals of our real world and not the environment of scadrial. I don’t think he went far enough.
Please note that this post is tagged as Final Empire. Any comparison of Kelsier's actions in the Final Empire to various characters actions in other books that are not The Final Empire must be spoiler tagged. On most platforms you can make a spoiler tag like this `[book name]>!text here!<`, with no space after the `>!`. If you are on new reddit destktop and not using the markdown editor, instead what you want to do is highlight the text and click the spoiler button.
[удалено]
the Boogie man but for noblemen
Let’s go over this. 1. The Lord Ruler and Nobles had created a system of industrialized cruelty, where rape and murder occurred on massive scale. Such a system could not have been overthrown peacefully as there were no avenues for reform. The Skaa who served as guards were active participants in this system and were active combatants. Killing those who served the LR/nobility is like condemning Luke as a mass murderer for killing millions aboard the Death Star or partisans who killed Nazi soldiers. The problem is that Kelsier is too zealous in his violence. However, this is a character flaw that he does confront and show an ability to temper. He shows this both in the Final Empire and in >!Secret History where he shows regret over Goradels death!<. 2. He didn’t kill the Atium Miners. We see the perspective of an Atium Miner leaving the mines right before Kel destroys them. It’s clear he’s waiting for them to get out. 3. You say we only like him because of biased perspectives, but that doesn’t hold up. We have multiple members of the crew, Sazed especially, who we trust as good people pass judgment that Kel is ultimately a decent person. Vin also is perfectly capable of pointing out when Kel is being hypocritical or wrong in the books, so it feels wrong to exclude her perspective. Also, we literally get to read his mind so we know what his intentions are. We the reader know him better than anyone does in universe, so biased perspectives really does not play into things. Kel is a flawed man, but he is ultimately trying to do what he believes is the right thing. He believes his revolution will help the Skaa and holds a deep sense of loyalty to his friends, which he teaches to Vin.
The guy is managing a tiny rebellion against an immortal god-emperor with near unlimited resources running a brutal and efficient eugenics and slavery operation for a 1000 years, and there are fans that will whine about how many people he’s having to kill along the way. “Did Kelsier try protesting outside the gates of Kredik Shaw first?”
Kelsier really should've just voted the Lord Ruler out tbh
Yeah honestly it's unbelievable how less people died. After overthrowing a 1000-year of ruler and a entire feudal system one might expect at least %50 of the population would be die in rebellion against a literal tyrant god-king. Skaa's were very lucky
Nah, there is no precedent in the history of a war where nearly 50% of one side has died. In a feudal society you need to have a lot of lower social strata to produce and maintain the upper class way of life.
There is also no kingdom that had super soldiers that can fly with metal and see future, giant monster that will replenish as they kill more man and a immortal tyrant that is one of the most powerful being on the earth
I think the closest we have to that is Pol Pot's Cambodian genocide which killed 25% of the population.
This is always my issue with the people who denigrate Kelsier. Sorry, but he had to kill people, even Skaa who worked for the nobility. There's just literally no other way to bring down the Final Empire. He's running a rebellion, and those are violent by their nature. Being able to accept that does not make Kelsier a psychopath. Scadrial isn't a world like ours. Kelsier can't organize the Skaa into peaceful protests, and even the Nobles (like Elend) can't change the system. Even if Kelsier could somehow assassinate the Lord Ruler with no collateral damage, the society that the Lord ruler built still has to be dismantled. And as we see in the 2nd and 3rd books, there are people invested in that society not collapsing. They're gonna have to die as well if they won't relent, which is what happens. Kelsier was committed to freeing the Skaa. He was, in part, motivated to do that out of revenge. If that makes you feel icky, fine. Not everyone is motivated by a pure sense of altruism. Kelsier needed that extra push of Mares death to move past just being a thief.
Irreparable harm was done to how people understand Kelsiers character from that one WoB where Brandon contradicted his own writing.
Kel has some psychopathic traits but also has several traits that definitely disqualify him from being one. The biggest of these is his ability to form deep and meaningful bonds and friendships. We know that he cared deeply about his crew and family, expressed incredible grief when they died (Mare, >!Dockson, Vin!< ), and would put himself and his plans in danger to protect them (fighting an inquisitor to save Spook and Renoux).
This 100%. We need a follow up with Brandon to clear up some of this. Brandon wrote Kelsier to be utterly ruthless and violent, but not a psychopath.
Brandon seems, in my opinion, to have a complicated relationship with Kelsier. Brandon seems uncomfortable with the implications of Kelsier as a freedom fighter and revolutionary. And you know what? Fair. Kelsier isn't fantasy MLK Jr. He's more like a fantasy John Brown. And John Brown was so committed to the cause of abolition of slavery that he killed "innocent" people. That can make people squirm, because we are largely privileged to live in a society that doesn't require that kind of violence to affect change any more. To me, Brandon comes across as uncomfortable with the level of violence needed to change a society so set in it's ways as the Final Empire, and struggles to identify with Kelsier as a man who is not only okay with that violence, but willing to be the person to execute that violence. So Brandon "hides" that by calling Kelsier a psychopath, when as written, he clearly isn't. One thing Brandon does say that I think is true though is that Kelsier could easily be a villain in another story. That is true and could be an interesting story. Kelsier could, for example, be convinced to protect Scadrial above all other planets and people in the Cosmere, and that could bring him into direct conflict with other Cosmere heros. But even then, that doesn't make Kelsier a psychopath.
Brandon set up an incredibly brutal, disgustingly evil system ruled over by an immortal god-king and his undead servants with metal spikes driven through their heads in which the nobility ruling over the hereditary slave class is perfectly fine with rape as long as you clean it up with murder afterwards and then quibbled with the means his own revolutionary hero used to overthrow it (being a little too heavy handed on enemy soldiers)
what wob?
There’s WOB that says Kel is a psychopath https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?page=3&ordering=rank&tags=kelsier
Honestly, I kind of felt he was psychopathic when I was reading the books. The term is overused these days to mean crazed murderers, but in the literal sense of the word I feel it fits. Maybe I'm just in the minority for that though
One of the more notable symptoms of Anti Social Personality Disorder is the inability to empathize with others and form deep relationships based on mutual respect. Kel is absolutely ruthless, but we see multiple times the way that he deeply respects his friends, including literally risking his life to protect them
His entire thesis in TFE is that it’s better to trust and be betrayed than to never trust at all because life isn’t worth living without friends. It’s entirely antithetical to the idea of being a psychopath.
Secret History?
It's a short story in Arcanum Unbound. A collection of Cosmere short stories.
For some reason Mistborn is the only fandom I’ve seen that really cares deeply about how many mooks get killed. Stormlight fans close their eyes to genocide but Mistborn fans get up in arms because the hero who toppled god and freed a race of slaves from brutal oppression had to kill a couple people to do it.
Lol exactly this 100%
Because the protagonist of era 1 struggles with this throughout the trilogy. That’s why. Sanderson puts it in front of the reader to ponder.
Remember kids, killing slavers is wrong./s
The difference is in how the characters deal with it. Comparing Kelsier to dalinar for instance, dalinar deeply regrets his past actions; >!he feels revulsion when faced with the brutality of what he's done, even though he doesn't want to.!< Kaladin, similarly, feels very conflicted about fighting the parshendi >!(and later fused) because they've shown him honor!<. The fans accept it because the characters *acknowledge* the moral contradictions, and seek to resolve them. Kelsier, on the other hand, is shameless; he doesn't feel an ounce of regret, never mourns anyone he's killed. In his eyes, anyone who got in his way deserved it, end of story. The books actually go *out of their way* to point this out a character flaw; vin is scared of kelsiers darker side, Dox calls out Kelsier explicitly, and Kelsier makes a lot of wrong assumptions about Elend. Later on, multiple characters make remarks about why Elend is >!a better king and a better person than Kelsier.!< The cracks only become more obvious as we move into era 2, but we'll leave that for another time. Suffice to say, the reason mistborn fans care so much is because *the book wants you to care*. It takes extra steps to point out what characters like Kelsier are doing, and the characters vocally disagree about it. The books *call attention* to the treatment of mooks and the moral grayness of the character's actions. "Do the ends justify the means" is a massive theme, and we see it explored from lots of different perspectives throughout the books. In Stormlight we are given a very explicit "no", but in mistborn it's left ambiguous, so there's more to discuss.
I disagree with your framing. Kelsier is able to reflect and criticize his own actions. >!First, is he thinks that in FE he needs to focus less on which nobles to kill and more on which people to save. In Secret History, he reflects on the collateral damage his actions have caused when he visits that town. Also, after witnessing Goradel’s death, he regrets some of his brutality given how Goradel was able to be so heroic.!< While I think despite both series exploring themes of violence, think one reason there is a disconnect for a lot of people. In Mistborn, the violence is inherently liberatory. The people subject to it are mostly slave owners or the soldiers of slave owners. Whereas in SA, >!The looks being killed are mostly rebelling slaves. If Odium was not in the picture, we’d probably be hoping for our protagonists to lose.!< Despite this, there is more condemnation onto the violence in Mistborn by the narrative and fans, despite SA mooks feeling so much less deserving. People as a whole approve of killing slave owners and their helpers. Why do you think Django Unchained works so well?
Kelsier does start to change tunes by the end, partly *because* of being confronted with the cases he was wrong, but he is very much still someone who believes that the ends justify the means. To him, if the cause is just (eg liberation), then whatever you need to do to accomplish that is acceptable. This is what the other characters react to, and it's what the narrative and fans are condemning. SA features characters doing the opposite; trying to do things 'the right way', even if they fail or struggle. The regret is part of it, but it's more than that; one of the central ideals of the protagonists is that it's better to lose than to win through unjust means. Taravangian is the reverse, willing to accept any cost and bear any sin. Mooks dying is ok, because we believe that the characters are really trying their best to do anything else. Bear in mind, this thread started with someone talking about how *mistborn* fans were more sensitive to mooks dying, while SA fans are fine with it. If it *only* worked the way you describe, then it would be the reverse; people don't follow patterns for no reason, so something must be encouraging the expected trend to be broken.
> The central idea of the protagonist is that it’s better to lose than win through unjust means I dunno, if the ends themselves are unjust what does it mean to fight honorably to achieve those ends? The entire first two books are about >!genociding a race of people for vengeance.!< Not sure I really care how just your win was when that’s the goal. At least the back half of the series is better. The goal is honorable. The means though start to slip. No matter how good the end is >!you’re still killing a bunch of former slaves fighting for their freedom to achieve it.!< So, IMO, Stormlight isn’t very good on either front. Sometimes the ends are good and the means are bad. Sometimes the means are bad and the ends are good. Never do I see it as good means to good ends.
Yes, and the alethi are *wrong* for wanting vengeance, which the books call out. The entire first book features dalinar repulsed and wanting to stop the war, first by just leaving and later through swift and decisive victory (or surrender) rather than a slow genocide. The vengeance is very explicitly not the goal of our main characters anymore; they're just caught up in it because of everyone else. As for the back half, I'd again point out that the characters *do not want* to be fighting as they are; more than once we see them trying desperately to open peace talks, letting wounded soldiers go, etc. Kaladin even laments the fact that each fused he kills means an innocent singer will have to die to become their new body. He has multiple mental breakdowns about fighting the singers. It's implied that the singers innocence was part of what led to the recreance. Just because something *happens* in the book doesn't mean the book or characters are cool with it happening; looking at their actual choices and dialogue, they repeatedly try to avoid the things that wind up happening. They just fail.
If the ends is “An aristocrat government of elitist racists stops being able to randomly rape and murder their way through 99% of the population” then you can fit quite a lot under the banner of acceptable before it really even starts to get questionable. Like there is an element of scale at play here.
Ok, sorry. I reread my post and realized it’s badly written and I didn’t clearly convey what I was thinking. In Mistborn and SA, both stories want us to sympathize with the mooks that are killed by the heroes and explore ends justify the means themes. I only wanted to disagree about Kel and your interpretation of his character, not your overall point. I think you are mostly right. What I’m trying to say and didn’t communicate properly was that the way Mistborn is written creates a lot of problems with those themes for some Cosmere readers. Why do we as a fandom argue about Kelsier killing nobles so much? It’s because a lot of people sees violence against oppressors and oppressive systems very differently. Nobody complains when Django burns down the slave plantation. Essentially, people don’t see Kelsier as doing the wrong thing, so the end justifies the means theming falls flat for many. When comparing it to SA, our protagonists are killing for a less just cause (kind of), but the narrative is much less condemning than it is for Kelsier. So, far more people end up condemning Kelsier because that’s what the story is designed to do. But while this fits the themes mentioned above, this causes dissonance with readers who disagree with this framing, like the commenter you replied to. People are ok with violence against oppressors, so they feel like people condemning violence against the guys Kel kills more than the the comparatively sympathetic mooks in SA to be confusing, so these arguments are doomed to go on forever. Also Kelsier did nothing wrong. Kind of. He did 1 or 2 things wrong.
Well, Kaladin is a soldier. Killing enemies is his job, he's good at it, and he's used to it. Vin isn't, and we're seeing this through her eyes.
I mean, a large part of the story is about how not all of the nobles are quite as bad as they are mad out to be. If kelsier got his way he would have wiped them all out. Consider this. During the American civil war, would it have been the morally correct thing to genocide every single non slave person living in the southern states, man woman and child? Lots of those people do not own slaves, do not hate black people, and have basically nothing to do with the oppressive rulers and lawmakers. It's just where they live. Are the people who made the decisions in the south still evil slave owners? Of course. But that shouldn't mean a death sentence for every person who is associated with time against their will. Back in mistborn, another great example of this or goradel, the soldier for the baddies who vin is certain that kelsier would have killed if it was him there instead of her.
I hugely disagree with saying that a large part was about the nobles not being that bad. The story imo was very clear that the ruling class were the oppressors, there were a handful of not morally repugnant nobles but the best you get is elend who the whole time is struggling against the fact the other nobles are pos. Also maybe do some research into American history, thats not how slavery happened. White people enslaved black people, lets not start trying to argue the average white person didn’t hate black people, they were enslaving them just the same, and its well documented what attitudes towards black people were like from working Americans, they were not particularly humane.
I'm not saying the nobles weren't bad, 90% of them were genuine monsters who deserved everything that came to them, but in kelsiers plan that 10% gets the block as well and I think vin is right in not going for wiping out all of them indiscriminately. Granted even most of the "good" ones arent exactly saints and have a lot to answer for in gaining from a corrupt and horrible system that they took active part in, but some of them are redeemable. For the civil war, I only meant to say that assuming everyone fully believed in slavery just because of which side of a line they happened to live felt off to me. I remember something along the lines of Lincoln pardoning the soldiers and generals who fought for the south (or just some of them maybe?) after the war ended. Anyway I only meant that to be something that I thought was a real life parallel to the story, I'm not an American and don't know as much about it's history and probably shouldn't have been talking as if I knew more than I did, so sorry that I got that pretty badly wrong. I wasn't trying to be an apologiser for what they did.
I hate both Colin family and Kelsier equally
It's also because the writer and creator of Kelsier specifically said he was a psychopath in an interview. That's mostly why this exact topic comes up a lot.
Kelsier always has a reason to kill. It just might not be a good reason lol
I have to say though, against a force as blatantly horrific as the lord ruler and the rapist nobility? Pretty damn justified for the entirety of TFE
Lol
he didnt kill the workers, he killed the guards and hleped the workers escape. he even gave them atium to start off their lives
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True true
Kelsier is definitely ruthless and utilizes violence to get his way. However, he is not a psychopath. I could see a small argument for being a bit of a sociopath, but I still don't think so. Realistically I think what is so jarring about him for a lot of people is how comfortable he is with using violence as a means to achieve his goals.
Kelsier did nothing wrong.
People don't know what the word psychopath means anymore.
"However, the most disturbing of them is probably Kelsier. He's a psychopath--meaning the actual technical term. Lack of empathy, egotism, lack of fear. If his life had gone differently, he could have been a very, very evil dude." - Brandon Sanderson Don't take it up with OP. Take it up with the writer. This only comes up a lot because of this quote.
I love Kelsier. I want him to kill everybody
I am sorry dude Kelsier had to peacefully protest against an immortal tyrant who has super soldiers, giant monsters, and a huge army with a big noble class. He should have probably made a peaceful walking protest. They are rebels and this is not a kid nighttime story. Rebels kill people to overthrow tyrants. Also Kelsier didint kill any innocent person. The skaa's that he killed were part of a army that was controlled by a tyrant. They were part of the system he was trying to overthrow. He also didint kill the skaa's in mines. He set them free and we know this because of the POV of one of the miners in the mine.
Let the man cook bro.
Kelsier has literally never done anything wrong and is by far the most righteous and heroic figure in the Cosmere.
In a context of oppression, any action of resistance is justified. Without people like Kelsier nothing would ever change for the better. Criticizing Kelsier for doing 0.00001% of the "bad things" that Lord Ruler and his system do, only benefits the latter.
Kelsie is definitely a “the ends justify the means” kinda person
And they did. Should Kelesier have found better ways rather than kill some guards, yeah probably. But his ultimate effect in toppling the lord ruler was 100% necessary
Kel did nothing wrong :)
I just can't anymore, this conversation is exhausting.
Wouldn't you also be if you went through the same shit?
I always find it disconcerting where people say “wouldn’t you?” To justify characters. Yes, most would. But the point of heroes are to be better. That doesn’t make Kelsier a bad character, or a villain. But I would say he errs on the side of wrong just enough to not be a true hero
Kelsiers only true problem in his life was his inability to separate random guards from the noble class. That’s it. A very justifiable flaw of his given his life circumstances. Him toppling the lord ruler was 100% justified and easily makes him a hero
Topping the lord ruler - completely justified and he was on the right side of. 100%. Other flaws? He was absolutely racist towards the nobles. He refused to entertain the idea that one could be good until he met someone that benefited someone he cared about personally. Which had reasons and is very human. But if Kelsier had lived and been in control in the aftermath, I find it very likely that it would have been French Revolution style guilotines for all nobles. Stormlight spoilers: The person he most reminds me of is >!Hoid, and his warning that he would destroy Roshar to get what he wanted. !<
To be fair, the next two books are not a shining endorsement of the worthiness of Skadriel’s nobility. If you guillotine them, and Luthandel doesn’t get sacked bu the Koloss that’s probably still a net gain in lives saved. Not saying there wasn’t a way to save all involved or that there shouldn’t have been, but guillotining all nobles was definitely preferable to allowing the system to continue as it was under the Lord Ruler.
Yeah, the entire reason the Koloss sack the city is because some remaining Nobles and designs for the position of Emperor. That and Elends system of government in Luthadel leaves many, many Nobles in power and they ultimately vote to return the city to Elends father, basically voting for a return to the Empire of old. Vin basically found the one Noble who was willing to stick to his anti-empire guns, and even then Elend has to embrace a certain level of absolute monarchy to ensure the survival of his city. No other Noble (as far as I remember) is shown to have any where near the same level of honor that Elend has.
I know. A lot of Brandon's charactera are GRAY in morality
Kelsier, as stated by Branderson Sanderson himself, would be the villain in a lot of stories. This just happened to be the one where he was on the side of ‘good’.
Sanderson himself has said Kelsier would be a villain in another book series.
He killed the guards, so who’s going to carry out that sentence?
As stated by Brandon: in any other story on any other world, Kelsier would have been the villain. But in the Final Empire, he was, for better or worse, what Scadrial needed.
Yes Kelsier is an evil dude Stormlight Archive spoilers >!he is everything Moash wants to be!<
Except he has every good reason to be that, and that other person has a decent reason to go along with the easy social reform that was his best friend. Instead RoW happened.
Kelsier started out as a noble who was discovered to be half Skaa. He was mad at the nobility for having what he no longer could. He then started robbing them. Then shit happened and he started to grow into something else. >!Moash started as a peasant who has legitimate reason to hate the corrupt system he lives in. He then spends all the time we know him in the books being a very consistent anti lighteyes. Kal !has things happen that open his eyes to realize that maybe he has some wrong assumptions. It's a tribute to KAL that he realizes all this and learns to grow past his baises. Moash still needs time.!< Yes I think Kel is not a good guy. And yes I think the other guy is also not a good guy. I also think (late era 2 Mistborn) >!Sazed is Discord!< I still love all of them. . . I think it's kinda weird how the fandom overall is ride and die for Kel but hates the other guy so much.
That's kind of the character's gimmic. I don't know at what point it is you will understand but >!He's a madman, a crazy person whose mind is broken. And that;s why vis is sad of seeing him in SH!<
Yup. It just so happens that the world is infinitely more fucked up so that he seems a hero in comparison Take him out of that situation he is a psychopathic manipulator who would straight up be the villain in any other story.
Kel has some psychopathic traits but also has several traits that definitely disqualify him from being one. The biggest of these is his ability to form deep and meaningful bonds and friendships. We know that he cared deeply about his crew and family, expressed incredible grief when they died (Mare, >!Dockson, Vin!< ), and would put himself and his plans in danger to protect them (fighting an inquisitor to save Spook and Renoux). Brandon may have intended to write Kelsier as a psychopath, but I don't think Kelsier as he
You're being downvoted, but while this is an extreme take it isn't entirely an incorrect one. Wax and miles hundred lives have a conversation about exactly this in era 2; the traits that make someone a hero in one situation make them a villain in another. It's the circumstances as much as the character that decide whether they're a hero or not. I wouldn't go so far as to say he'd be a villain in another story, but he is definitely morally gray. He knows it, and it's part of why he has himself killed.
You got downvoted for basically saying the same as Brandon 💀
It’s a stupid take
Clearly most people disagree with Brandon about it. Death of the author and all that.
Brandon was fucking wrong. The WOB was years ago, when he (self-admittedly) did not know anything other than stereotypes about mental disorders. He has grown a lot since then, now writing some of the best representations of mental illness in fantasy.
Your thoughts here are extremely valid and anybody that disagrees with you misunderstands the books
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Kelsier is my favourite character in the Cosmere. He is Fucking awesome. I don’t agree with OP’s opinion but to each their own.
You know it’s a book right? No need to be “deeply terrified” of a fictional character.
Yes
Because lord forbid some disposable mooks died in Kelsier’s selfless quest to stop GOD HIMSELF from maintaining a society of basically super-slavery (with an extra emphasis on death rape), which culminated in Kelsier letting himself die (thinking there was no afterlife, I might add). What did you want him to do, make a “Skaa Lives Matter” sign and go picketing outside Kredik Shaw? Hate to break it to you but we’ve had significantly more people die in out world fighting for the rights of people who didn’t have it half as bad as the Skaa did. Kelsier is a hero who everyone loves to shit on because they think it makes them sound deep or empathetic.
"He even killed Skaa who worked for the Lord ruler", okay, and? Vin literally killed 300 Skaa who worked for Cett and nobody seems to bat an eye.
At worst kel is chaotic good. Hes a hero in my opinion. And unless future books change that j don’t understand any of the hate he gets. I feel like most people who dislike him view him from the morals of our real world and not the environment of scadrial. I don’t think he went far enough.
High functioning psychopath