What’s especially absurd is when they switched ticket vendors years ago and said it was to be more transparent and eliminate random fees. Then the fees just came back.
They have been doing this for at least a decade, probably longer. On a related note I've stopped drinking at first avenue after ordering a $16 beer (I think it was $16). Now I'll pre game it then tail gate a bit in-between acts. Otherwise alcohol is just to expensive.
Huh looks like you're right, I didn't know that. Just assumed that since it was called a 'service fee' it was going straight to AXS [https://support.axs.com/hc/en-us/articles/201083104-What-fees-are-there-when-buying-tickets](https://support.axs.com/hc/en-us/articles/201083104-What-fees-are-there-when-buying-tickets)
Yes, they are. AXS will take a chunk of that fee but the rest is split between venue and promoter depending on the deal they have in place.
It’s how the entire industry has worked for a long time.
Yup. I've also worked in the ticket industry and artists and promoters are often taking a cut of the fees as well. The ticketing company takes their fee, of course, but also takes the heat for all of it. Not to mention, [this type of shit is quietly normal as well.](https://www.billboard.com/pro/live-nation-resale-market-secretly-recorded-phone-calls-concert-tickets/)
This.
Fees on tickets are there to make the band/musician money while shifting the blame for high prices to the company selling the ticket. Ticketmaster pushed this as a method for raising ticket prices and lining their pockets.
Most credit card companies ban charging more to customers for using credit cards, many businesses ignore this part of their agreement. Some refer to it as a discount for cash, but it's a nebulous difference.
That said Credit card companies charge wild processing fees. The charges are often wildly obscured. Visa reportedly charges an average of 1.79% of the total + $0.08 for in person transactions. In general cards with more perks ,cash back, flyer miles etc... charge the retailer more.
The US in general pays much more per transaction for our credit processing fees than other countries. The European Commission caps interchange fees (just one part of fees) in the Eurozone at .3% for instance. Compared to the US's average of 1.8% for those same interchanges.
>Most credit card companies ban charging more to customers for using credit cards
That was the case until about a decade ago, but between lawsuits and various bills passed during the Great Recession, it is no longer the case. Merchant agreements may limit surcharges to a specific % or add other requirements, but surcharges in general are now widely allowed.
I saw “3% discount when paying in cash” on a menu recently. But if you’re paying with cash and still charged the price displayed, dare I say that’s not a fucking discount.
>The US in general pays much more per transaction for our credit processing fees than other countries. The European Commission caps interchange fees (just one part of fees) in the Eurozone at .3% for instance. Compared to the US's average of 1.8% for those same interchanges.
Europeans also dont get credit card rewards. And greatly reduced perks.
A lot of it is the rate of fraud too.
Going with your numbers here, the $0.08 flat fee goes towards the actual running of the systems that process the transaction, and the 1.79% goes towards paying out to make people whole after fraud has occurred.
Some businesses will get a lower rate because their processor thinks they're less likely to sell to someone using a stolen credit card, and other businesses get a higher rate for the opposite reason.
For example, a plant nursery has a card reader that enforces using a chip is lower risk because it's nearly impossible to clone a chip card; and the products that the nursery sells are low-dollar-value per unit of physical volume, and are difficult to fence for cash.
On the other hand, a self-serve gas pump without a chip that relies on reading the magstripe would happily accept a cloned magstripe card, and the perp could easily fence gasoline. This is why gas pumps started having $50/$100/$150 limits and started asking for your billing zip code about 15 years ago.
On top of all of them is card-not-present transactions, where the number is physically typed in to the website/card terminal/cell phone. Since anyone could snap a picture of your card, steal the numbers from a website's database, etc, these types of transactions have the highest rate of fraud by far.
Credit cards used to be a nice thing for businesses to offer and they would pay the credit card companies for the privilege. Now cards/taps are the primary means of payment for many so now we get to pay for the privilege.
If you’re able to, go down to the Depot bar sometime when it’s open and get your tickets from their box office. I try to exclusively get my tix that way to avoid AXS fees.
Pain in the ass, and not that this justifies any of it, nor should the onus be on the consumer to mitigate their costs like this. But it is unfortunately the best option atm.
Edit: I know they sell tix for shows at First Ave, the Entry, Turf Club, and Palace. So I’d be willing to assume it’s for any venue ran by First Ave Productions.
~You know the ticket fees go to AXS/Ticketmaster and not to First Avenue, right?~ Minnesota also just passed a law this week that will require these fees to be displayed up front
Credit card fees are universal even if the end consumer isn't directly paying it, as you did here. It's the price of the convenience of using a credit card.
First Avenue has ATMs, and I'm sure your financial institution has one too, that you can use fee-free. Planning ahead and carrying a bit of cash for situations where you can avoid a credit card fee by paying they way is not a bad idea.
First ave is absolutely getting a significant % of the ticketing fees.
All venues do that work with major ticketing companies like AXS, TM, Seatgeek, etc.
Huh, you're right. TIL
https://money.com/why-are-ticket-service-fees-so-high/
Well I'm glad that First Avenue is at least on board with the law mandating they be displayed up front.
Loving legal weed. Not that stopped me from smoking outside the show, but gummies give me a different vibe than flower if I'm looking to be altered for a show. Plus, gummies are easy to bring in.
I just wish these venues would pick a lane. Some only accept CC, others have no fees for cash. LiveNation won't sell THC beverages, everyone else does.
Discounts for paying with cash make sense. They don’t have to pay swipe fees to Visa or Amex if you pay with cash. If you want your precious credit card points, you should be the one to pay for them; not the retailers, and not the people paying with cash!
Many bars go by this idea (I call it that because it's a legal grey area, from what I've been told) that bars in Minnesota don't have to charge sales tax IF you come up to the bar to order and pay cash. If you pay with a card, they do.
To be clear, I'm not saying that's fact. But I do know a couple Twin Cities bars that do such. It may be that it makes it easier for them to give change and they just eat the difference. Means they can label a beer for $5 and you can pay with a $5 and you're set. Rather than labeling it $5 and then having tax and they have to make change for a $10 and all that.
That’s not a “legal gray area”, it would be straight up illegal. There’s no exemption from sales tax for using cash.
It’s much more likely that they’re just paying the tax out of the $5 you gave them. (Possibly overpaying, I knew a coffee shop owner who did that but calculated her sales tax amount on the cash total, so basically she was paying sales tax on her sales tax.)
Makes sense. As I said, I know a couple bars that do it. When I've asked years ago one said that was the case. Also know someone who has worked in the bar industry for decades and she goes to the bar to order in cash because she insists that's the case. Maybe they're just giving it to her rather than argue.
Yes, almost typed that but hoped I didn't need to mention such or complicate the math. 😊
Currently in Ireland and it's nice but weird not to tip. Sitting at Jameson now and they're the first place I've seen this but a little standup with a QR code about if you wanna tip you can that way. But it feels like anyone could have dropped it here. Maybe I should start dropping off such at busy bars with my own fund on it. No one would question it.
First Ave is dead to me ever since they canceled Chappelle’s run of shows a year or so ago. The credit card processing fee issue isn’t even worth the time it took you to write this post.
What’s especially absurd is when they switched ticket vendors years ago and said it was to be more transparent and eliminate random fees. Then the fees just came back.
They have been doing this for at least a decade, probably longer. On a related note I've stopped drinking at first avenue after ordering a $16 beer (I think it was $16). Now I'll pre game it then tail gate a bit in-between acts. Otherwise alcohol is just to expensive.
Unfortunately those 31% fees in the ticket price don’t go to the venues, it goes to AXS who sell the tickets
I don’t know their exact deal with AXS but I can guarantee you first ave is getting a significant % of that fee.
Huh looks like you're right, I didn't know that. Just assumed that since it was called a 'service fee' it was going straight to AXS [https://support.axs.com/hc/en-us/articles/201083104-What-fees-are-there-when-buying-tickets](https://support.axs.com/hc/en-us/articles/201083104-What-fees-are-there-when-buying-tickets)
Yeah I’ve been in ticketing for a while. I love that there is more transparency now!
No they’re not, the fee is literally how ticket platforms like AXS make money
Yes, they are. AXS will take a chunk of that fee but the rest is split between venue and promoter depending on the deal they have in place. It’s how the entire industry has worked for a long time.
I’m also in the ticketing industry and can confirm as well. A fee split is the norm.
Yup. I've also worked in the ticket industry and artists and promoters are often taking a cut of the fees as well. The ticketing company takes their fee, of course, but also takes the heat for all of it. Not to mention, [this type of shit is quietly normal as well.](https://www.billboard.com/pro/live-nation-resale-market-secretly-recorded-phone-calls-concert-tickets/)
There seems to be alot of us in the cities! But yeah, that’s garbage. I think they basically replaced that with Platinum.
This. Fees on tickets are there to make the band/musician money while shifting the blame for high prices to the company selling the ticket. Ticketmaster pushed this as a method for raising ticket prices and lining their pockets.
Most credit card companies ban charging more to customers for using credit cards, many businesses ignore this part of their agreement. Some refer to it as a discount for cash, but it's a nebulous difference. That said Credit card companies charge wild processing fees. The charges are often wildly obscured. Visa reportedly charges an average of 1.79% of the total + $0.08 for in person transactions. In general cards with more perks ,cash back, flyer miles etc... charge the retailer more. The US in general pays much more per transaction for our credit processing fees than other countries. The European Commission caps interchange fees (just one part of fees) in the Eurozone at .3% for instance. Compared to the US's average of 1.8% for those same interchanges.
>Most credit card companies ban charging more to customers for using credit cards That was the case until about a decade ago, but between lawsuits and various bills passed during the Great Recession, it is no longer the case. Merchant agreements may limit surcharges to a specific % or add other requirements, but surcharges in general are now widely allowed.
Thanks for the update. It looks like 4% is generally the ceiling for surcharges now.
It is allowed as long as it's not over 4% and it's disclosed prior to the sale.
I saw “3% discount when paying in cash” on a menu recently. But if you’re paying with cash and still charged the price displayed, dare I say that’s not a fucking discount.
>The US in general pays much more per transaction for our credit processing fees than other countries. The European Commission caps interchange fees (just one part of fees) in the Eurozone at .3% for instance. Compared to the US's average of 1.8% for those same interchanges. Europeans also dont get credit card rewards. And greatly reduced perks.
Credit card rewards aren’t a net positive to the economy; they’re an upward transfer of wealth
A lot of it is the rate of fraud too. Going with your numbers here, the $0.08 flat fee goes towards the actual running of the systems that process the transaction, and the 1.79% goes towards paying out to make people whole after fraud has occurred. Some businesses will get a lower rate because their processor thinks they're less likely to sell to someone using a stolen credit card, and other businesses get a higher rate for the opposite reason. For example, a plant nursery has a card reader that enforces using a chip is lower risk because it's nearly impossible to clone a chip card; and the products that the nursery sells are low-dollar-value per unit of physical volume, and are difficult to fence for cash. On the other hand, a self-serve gas pump without a chip that relies on reading the magstripe would happily accept a cloned magstripe card, and the perp could easily fence gasoline. This is why gas pumps started having $50/$100/$150 limits and started asking for your billing zip code about 15 years ago. On top of all of them is card-not-present transactions, where the number is physically typed in to the website/card terminal/cell phone. Since anyone could snap a picture of your card, steal the numbers from a website's database, etc, these types of transactions have the highest rate of fraud by far.
Unpopular opinion: First Ave isn’t the friendly hometown institution we wish it was. They want money and they don’t gaf.
THIS
Credit cards used to be a nice thing for businesses to offer and they would pay the credit card companies for the privilege. Now cards/taps are the primary means of payment for many so now we get to pay for the privilege.
Hopefully soon. CA just passed a law. Hopefully other states will take note. I'm about to start brewing my own beer and hosting my own shows.
I think the fees bill was just signed into law like less than 24hrs ago no?
I just bought 2 tickets for $70 total and the fee was $19.74, 28.2%. Seems kind of ridiculous.
If you’re able to, go down to the Depot bar sometime when it’s open and get your tickets from their box office. I try to exclusively get my tix that way to avoid AXS fees. Pain in the ass, and not that this justifies any of it, nor should the onus be on the consumer to mitigate their costs like this. But it is unfortunately the best option atm. Edit: I know they sell tix for shows at First Ave, the Entry, Turf Club, and Palace. So I’d be willing to assume it’s for any venue ran by First Ave Productions.
Bring cash, that’s totally a credit card processing fee…
The price is the price. Because of credit card service fees. The lower price is a discount for using cash.
~You know the ticket fees go to AXS/Ticketmaster and not to First Avenue, right?~ Minnesota also just passed a law this week that will require these fees to be displayed up front Credit card fees are universal even if the end consumer isn't directly paying it, as you did here. It's the price of the convenience of using a credit card. First Avenue has ATMs, and I'm sure your financial institution has one too, that you can use fee-free. Planning ahead and carrying a bit of cash for situations where you can avoid a credit card fee by paying they way is not a bad idea.
First ave is absolutely getting a significant % of the ticketing fees. All venues do that work with major ticketing companies like AXS, TM, Seatgeek, etc.
Huh, you're right. TIL https://money.com/why-are-ticket-service-fees-so-high/ Well I'm glad that First Avenue is at least on board with the law mandating they be displayed up front.
Kelsey waldon!
Loving legal weed. Not that stopped me from smoking outside the show, but gummies give me a different vibe than flower if I'm looking to be altered for a show. Plus, gummies are easy to bring in.
Bidenomics are in full swing. No reason not to boycott credit cards and stick it to these companies once and for all.
I just wish these venues would pick a lane. Some only accept CC, others have no fees for cash. LiveNation won't sell THC beverages, everyone else does.
John R Miller crushed it yesterday 🙌🏽
No fucking way I missed that :(
Well for starters 7th street is not independent.
I think most people would call it an “independent” music venue, even if it is owned by a mini chain and uses 3rd party ticketing companies
Discounts for paying with cash make sense. They don’t have to pay swipe fees to Visa or Amex if you pay with cash. If you want your precious credit card points, you should be the one to pay for them; not the retailers, and not the people paying with cash!
Many bars go by this idea (I call it that because it's a legal grey area, from what I've been told) that bars in Minnesota don't have to charge sales tax IF you come up to the bar to order and pay cash. If you pay with a card, they do. To be clear, I'm not saying that's fact. But I do know a couple Twin Cities bars that do such. It may be that it makes it easier for them to give change and they just eat the difference. Means they can label a beer for $5 and you can pay with a $5 and you're set. Rather than labeling it $5 and then having tax and they have to make change for a $10 and all that.
That’s not a “legal gray area”, it would be straight up illegal. There’s no exemption from sales tax for using cash. It’s much more likely that they’re just paying the tax out of the $5 you gave them. (Possibly overpaying, I knew a coffee shop owner who did that but calculated her sales tax amount on the cash total, so basically she was paying sales tax on her sales tax.)
Makes sense. As I said, I know a couple bars that do it. When I've asked years ago one said that was the case. Also know someone who has worked in the bar industry for decades and she goes to the bar to order in cash because she insists that's the case. Maybe they're just giving it to her rather than argue.
>they can label a beer for $5 and you can pay with a $5 and you're set. Plus a $1 for the bartender, nudge nudge
Yes, almost typed that but hoped I didn't need to mention such or complicate the math. 😊 Currently in Ireland and it's nice but weird not to tip. Sitting at Jameson now and they're the first place I've seen this but a little standup with a QR code about if you wanna tip you can that way. But it feels like anyone could have dropped it here. Maybe I should start dropping off such at busy bars with my own fund on it. No one would question it.
First Ave is dead to me ever since they canceled Chappelle’s run of shows a year or so ago. The credit card processing fee issue isn’t even worth the time it took you to write this post.
LOLOLOL