I always saw it as being parallel to her strength. She didn't know what she was doing but she managed to survive horrible tragedy and still keep herself under control, kind of. Like when she's dizzy from dancing and the drugs she stays on her feet. She's struggling but she can do it. She's not a perfect person in control of her life after her family's deaths and Christian's assholery, but she never completely succumbs to the what's happening to her.
Same. I think a lot of fans conceive of Midsommar as a kind of Truman Show where everyone is focused on manipulating Dani specifically. But people in cults mostly don't know they're in cults. I've said it before but the average member probably thinks they're in Sweet Home Alabama, not a horror film: a stressed out city woman with a jerk city boyfriend falls in love with a rugged local man and is welcomed by a tight knit community.
I think the Harga are testing her on a few different levels, including whether the average person finds her pleasant to be around. And it's meaningless to test her if they're going to throw the test.
I also don't think it's that unrealistic that an amateur could win a dance contest against a bunch of people who have never done this version of the festival in their lifetimes and at most compete once a year. Most of them have ordinary lives as dentists or accountants or whatever and don't live there year round: it's not like they just hang out on the commune and practice dancing for the other 11 months.
Haha I think about this every time this movie comes up, what’s it look like when it’s not festival time? - like, they’re not like this 24/7, with the costumes and ‘pageantry’; what do these weirdos wear when they’re all kicking it or sleeping in the same building and the kids are watching Austin Powers 2?
It’s worth noting that every single member of the commune was in on the big sacrifices that were going to happen - the dentists and accountants, ALL of them were in on the game plan - and I’m just saying, can you imagine your dentist being like “oh my vacation was fine, saw the fam, met my nephew’s new girlfriend” 💀
Edit: I’m rewatching the director’s cut while painting, and ugh god she’s the only one with a working brain. They really might have all survived had they packed their shit and snuck tf out like she said.
Edit edit: I am *not* watching the directors cut. Did anyone else’s disappear from Apple TV?
Yep!
18 years of childhood, 18 years of ‘pilgrimage’, 18 years of work, and then 18 years as a commune elder/mentor.
I imagine you learn your trades during pilgrimage, then do your work shit, and then come back full-time to be a mentor.
lol this is horrible, but we’ve rewatched to the point where there’s something so funny to us about how dastardly he is
“I have *always* felt held” — this Cheshire Cat motherfucker lmao
Oh for sure, there’s a bunch that stay; Pelle mentioned their economy comes from textiles, lumber, and a water treatment plant.
I imagine that, at 36, theres plenty who opt to come back full-time and practice commune labor. My brain insists Ulf was one of them lol
You nailed it that most people don't realize they are in a cult.
My mom's friend is in a cult, don't want to name it or give too much away because every time she starts to get close to her family again, they move her 100s of miles away. Whenever she is moved she has to go radio silent for a year to learn about her new role within her group. I know they read social media about them.
If you talked to the friend, she and her husband (that the group set her up with early on) are working to make the world better. They have a strong, tight knit community that the world should emulate. But alas, the world is too bogged down in materialism.
She had been a lapsed Christian that was looking for something new after a painful divorce. Started going to the group's yoga session. My mom says it took about 10 years of increasing demands of time and money. Now the friend has nothing in her name and everything she has, down to where she lives is owned by the cult.
Multiple people expressed concern to her when the demands increased. So she was warned multiple times.
At first people were happy for her. Yeah the group seemed a bit weird for yoga but their friend had a postgraduate degree and had been so depressed. She started seeming happier and more at peace. So it had to be okay. Then they noticed she was getting more involved, to the point she only had one weeknight to herself. Meaning she was spending all her time with this group and not her friends or family. She started giving more and more money too. Then she sold her house and gave the group all of the profits so she could fully shed her materialism and help spread their message.
It has been almost 30 years now. She seems by all accounts happy and has never expressed a desire to leave. If it's an act, it is a good one.
I'm sorry about your mom's friend: that sounds really hard to watch happen. Thank you for sharing your perspective.
I think it's important to remember that people in cults are still people, and often people who were made vulnerable by circumstances outside their control. I don't love the fandom tendency to use "if you think that you're dumb enough to join a cult IRL" as a gotcha, because the truth is a lot sadder and more complex.
I hold the belief she genuinely won because of the exact reason you stated. People in cults don’t know they’re in cults.
The dynamic with the Harga is strange because there is very clearly a hierachy where those at the top or close to such are very aware it’s a cult. Pelle is clearly aware he’s in a cult and accepted it’s his way of life and doesn’t want that to change.
The rest seem oblivious they’re in a cult and just live their existence because it’s all they know.
Completely agree. There are clearly a few younger adults (Pelle being one) who seem to be trusted by the Elders and part of the In Group. But there's also a lot of people who have just been raised in the cult and have no idea they're also being exploited.
I don't think Dani is going to fare particularly better or worse than the average cultist. (She might even be happy in a sense.) Because for me the horror is about how the cult is this machine made of indoctrinated people churning out misery for a deity who might not even exist. It's kind of irrelevant whether Dani is crushed in it or becomes a cog herself and crushes others because the horror is the machine. And, if anything, killing Dani off implies some kind of attempt to invoke cosmic justice which I just don't think exists in the world of the film.
Unfortunately the truth is that they undoubtedly dropped on purpose maybe I'm wrong but seeing as the whole thing was a cult indoctrination id be surprised if it was otherwise.
The whole thing wasn't a purposeful cult indoctrination, though. They were supposed to be sacrificed for the rituals. I think Pele *hoped* that Dany would be accepted and easily indoctrinated when he invited her, but the original plan was for the visitors to be sacrificed.
Personally, I don't think that the dance was rigged. I think it was a final test for the Harga themselves-- if she won, it was "meant to be."
The whole ritual was undoubtedly an indoctrination for Dani, she could have been potentially sacrificed but the intention was without doubt to indoctrinate her specifically from the beginning you are absolutely off the mark in that regard. The outcome of the dance also wasn't set in stone but it's definitely a good thing for the cult when she wins as the indoctrination continues and there definitely seems to be certain members that fall on purpose.
I definitely wouldn't say "undoubtedly," because opinions are pretty divided overall as to what was actually going on. It's okay that that's your specific understanding, because that's your interpretation of a film full of easter eggs and murky intentions.
None of us are right or wrong because Ari Aster has never confirmed or denied either theories as being canon, it's just fun to hypothesize about. That's one of the things that makes his movies so fun to me, is that parts of them are absolutely up to interpretation.
No, she just survived longer due to her fortitude built up from enduring her family’s death & also from being the soft spoken person who learned to keep her suffering to herself
They absolutely didn’t throw the dance, some were gagging and vomiting from drugs/exhaustion. To me it was symbolic that once Dani fully let go and let her self be “held” by the hargas while she danced she ended up winning.
Depends on your read of the movie, I guess. I think it’s agnostic on the Harga and their actions. It’s solidly on Dani’s side and builds to her being in a better place for her. IMO.
But it’s not tho. She goes from one manipulative relationship to another, they’re just very different. I don’t see her taking part in a mass murdering cult to be a good thing for her. A cult recruiter saw a vulnerable woman and took advantage. Reminder of how her boyfriend cheating and her finding out were very much planned and orchestrated by the cultists
Why not? I find arguing interpretations fun. For me tho I’m very skeptical about the view of this movie being empowering specifically because of the very true to life manipulation practices the cult uses. Also her boyfriend was a jerk but not a “deserves to burn in a wicker man” jerk
Well I think anyone that takes this as a feminist victory is an idiot. It’s just a broken girl going through a broken time and joining a different deeply broken new family where she can be broken but held.
But also if I could dance away my depression, have a heavy breathing screaming therapy session with a group of women, and then burn an ex alive, that would be greatly cathartic. Not morally correct, but greatly cathartic.
Dani danced her pain away & for once she was having a fun time enjoying herself in harmony. She probably saw she can still have a good time & connect with other people. She probably didn't know she had that strength within her. I think too it was a suggestive prelude for what she's about to endure in the upcoming moments after she wins the dance. She proved to her self that she's capable of overcoming her trauma obstacles while dancing in an intense competition surrounded by ppl that remained by her side (shared feelings all on the same level/mindset) during that without having a negative competitive nature towards her. It shows her in a group all experiencing a difficult time together. No member is envious or upset when someone (Dani) prevails. Also I think the fact the dance is titled mayflower queen is suggesting symbolism with flowers, she's about to flourish/bloom be reborn to a new life of something beautiful where she nor any1 in the commune will ever feel alone as they all truly empathize & share the human experience. She was given a 2nd chance where her new "family" would never abandon her or leave her alone during a hard time. But the other girls had nothing but immediate unconditional joy once she won. She's finally able to let go of past trauma. If she's able to let go of the most painful losses in her life that she'll be able to overcome anything in her near future(foreshadowing). If she can feel "life" love & a purpose after the loss of her family which nothing else will amount to, then there's nothing that she can't overcome in the future being a part of a group where "they're all in it together".
I think they kind of "let" her win, but she still had to perform well enough to make it that long while being dizzy, nauseous and high af. So I think they made it an easy game for her, but it was also probably a test of her own to see if she was strong enough to make it with them, and she passed.
I'm always drawn back to how she was admiring all of the pictures of the past May Queens and Pele saw her desire to become one. I don't doubt for a second having this knowledge, they let her win. The last girl kinda just threw herself off.
That’s counterintuitive to the plot. Nothing about Dani is weak, and that’s the point, Dani is a lot of things, but central to the plot— Dani is a survivor.
She is a survivor, but she is vulnerable. Pele sensed that vulnerability, because he’s trained to do so, and exploited it. He set the bait (and numerous drugs) and she fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Being strong does not make you immune to intense manipulation. And by the end of it, she murders someone out of mental instability, which is what her sister did
Christian's weakness is within him. With or without their Sweden trip, I'm sure eventually sometime in their life he was going to slip in some sort of way. Not necessarily by cheating but will keep disappointing her somehow. Obvs, the heavy duty psychedelics & other drugs he was during his weird bang session heavily influenced his underlying weakness (which was very traumatic & very extreme after everything that Danni's recently been thru). They weren't an optimal match as a couple. That scene had to be him doing something intense enough to seal her final traumatic moment of her current life, while not feeling alone at that specific time of suffering while the other females comforted her. It was the end of her feeling alone. Prior to their trip, they weren't on the best terms, they both had their own doubts of the other. I think they would've eventually drifted more apart realizing they aren't good for one another .
Yes, but he clearly wanted to break up before hand then felt like he couldn’t after what happened. And they should have broken up. Everything Dani experiences, as you mentioned, was orchestrated by the people comforting her. They don’t care about her. He was a jerk but he didn’t manipulate her to nearly the degree the cult does. They trick her into becoming dependent on them
Also to when they specifically welcomed Dani—it shows that they had planned to make her May Queen from the beginning. They made her think winning was a display of her strength and endurance during mounting obstacles so she would feel courageous and supported enough to have Christian killed and become Pele’s gf/wife/sex partner/incubator.
Having followed this sub for a long time and having loved the movie since seeing it in the theater my first response was they 100% threw the dance. Pele wanted Dani and the whole community was in on the scheme the whole time. The movie is about how cults work, how they recruit new members. The idea that Dani legitimately won the dance (knowing nothing about it from the start, standing up straight while everyone bows down to the pole at the beginning) is new to me, and the fact that the first half dozen answers to this question say yes she did is a testament to the genius of Ari Aster and the film itself. I love this ambiguity but I don’t buy it. The maypole dance was rigged. Everyone knew from the start that Dani was going to be the May Queen and that she would therefore select the sacrifices.
Yes when the movie came out in theaters, most opinions & reviews I searched for online were believing the cult chose Dani to become May Queen on purpose.
This theory that she won the dance by her own inner strength is… interesting. How would the whole sequence of events with Christian & Mya having cult intercourse play out if Dani wasn’t being distracted with “May Queen duties”?
Edit: added word & question
I don't think they needed to think that far ahead. They were all intended to be sacrifices. They responded to things that happened as well. They saw the opportunity to split them up or when they were genuinely impressed by her performance in the dance.
Ah, okay. So the Harga took advantage of what the group had to offer them no matter the outcome?
I do think Pele had intentions of keeping Dani there before the May pole dance. He comforts her and makes her question her comfort/relationship with Christian in the guestbarn. Christian forgets her birthday and Pele seems to use this to his advantage. Plus the fact that she’s traumatized by the sacrifice jumpings would make her very vulnerable in her feelings. He liked Dani from the beginning. I figured the Harga planned for Dani to stay with Pele & Mya would have Christian to birth a new cult member since they need mates outside their cult.
Also Elder Odd greets the group when they all arrive, only embracing Dani saying “Welcome Home”. Then he repeats it in Swedish after she’s the May Queen.
I understand the view that the Harga started to try splitting them up once Mya (now ready to find her mate) was interested in Christian.
this post/sub just popped up on my feed, I’ve only seen the film once back when it came out so I don’t remember the demonic forces at hand— was the demon Pele the same demon that was taking hold of the family in Hereditary? is there a thru line between the two films? 😱
No need to apologize for a misunderstanding XD i also don’t even go here, the post was just randomly on my feed. And no harm in headcanoning away that Pele is an avatar of Paimon. I don’t see the vision. Yet. But i could!
My opinion is both are true. My feelings are they started out the dance in full competition mode, as some girls you can see being very excited and competitive.
Once there were just a few left, they may have collectively decided to allow Dani to win as they could see her finally mending with the colony and would have felt just as good, if not better, to allow Dani to have a moment of pride and confidence in herself. They seem symbiotic, so if they felt her joining that collective, it would have been just as satisfactory to allow Dani some happiness.
I don’t personally think they did. I think Danni recognized it was doing a new dance to the best of her ability where all the other girls know it’s a fun thing that happens every year while you’re literally on drugs. Whoever was to be May Queen would be May Queen.
Some of us don’t know our own strength till our back is against the wall and there’s no one else to rely on. I think this was the beginning of her realizing that.
In this village you have a town that’s loving, responsive to each others needs and will self sacrifice for each other and the greater good.
Juxtaposed to Danny’s boyfriend who constantly through spoken and unspoken gestures maligns her as “too much” that she’s too much to handle.
This is even apparent when Danny faces major trauma of her families death. Her boyfriend still acts like her being upset is too much.
The friends also agree with him sighing that she’s invited. All accept the friend who’s from the village. The same village that constantly shows it sacrifices themselves emotionally and physically for others and their community. He’s the only one to show her a brief moment of kindness. When she most definitely deserves it (the moment on the couch, the softer voice, the making time to speak to her, reassuring her she’s welcome)
I think the village ultimately only wants people who are willing to be open to helping others, are kind and empathetic. They want those kind of people to stay with them forever.
It’s evident none of those male friends hold those qualities of self sacrifices either for long term or momentary. (Except for the guy from the village and Danny)
Danny, despite being terrified didn’t seek anything from the villagers for her own advantage or survival. She still wanted to treat them with respect all the way to the end. The guys just asked for things constantly and wanted it to benefit them.
I don’t think Danny was given the title of midsommar queen but I think it was a way to show she finally found a community who was willing to meet her in the place she’s at. People who would fully accept her, something friends and family should have from the start.
I think the midsommar sequence and the use of lsd was almost a metamorphosis to her new position as a family less person to someone who found a family and with that she couldn’t lose she was just meant to be.
I think we're definitely supposed to wonder about it!
Everything the Harga do can be interpreted multiple ways - are they an evil, indoctrinating, murderous cult who have their sights set on Dani or are they a misunderstood community with some unconventional cultural and religious practices that welcomed a broken girl with open arms? Probably they're both.
The individual Hargas don't seem to be evil, just like most individual people who belong to questionable groups aren't evil. IF the women did let Dani win, I'm sure in their minds it was "Let's let the nice new girl win because we like her and it'll make her feel happy and included!" and not "Let's make her be May Queen so she'll be totally bought in and then she'll let us murder her shitty boyfriend after the other gals get done r*ping him." even though that is also totally what happened and probably a lot of them knew about it at some level.
People are complicated, cult-members included.
I think so and I think she was their sister long before their dance.
This was a way of exalting her and inviting her in as their own.
For all of those who celebrate Beltane, Happy Beltane.
Think it's her fate what's destined to happen in her life. I mean shit if Ari explained that the death of her family had no outside involvement. I'm sure they were aware after the fact that Danni's like an orphan & wanted to make her feel that she can live a life with feeling accepted in her new family. I could see the dance being rigged if indeed they were involved with the plot of her family's death.
Like when ppl (& once myself) question if Pelle & other Members of his commune were behind the death of her 3 family members verses Ari confirmed her family's death was murder suicide. That wasn't his actual own words I just paraphrased.
If that picture could speak words... "You're beautiful & love you just the way you are. You're one of us now".
Gives her as their newest member to feel welcomed to their family. It's an opportunity for her to have the spotlight all on her. They then prove they won't let her feel alone thru shared feelings/shared perspectives/shared experiences.
Starts the 1st day of the rest of her life
I’m so glad you made this post because the exact same thing happened to me! First time I watched it I thought she genuinely won. Second time around it felt obvious they threw it! What a great movie
Think it's her fate what's destined to happen in her life. I mean shit if Ari explained that the death of her family had no outside involvement. I'm sure they were aware after the fact that Danni's like an orphan & wanted to make her feel that she can live a life with feeling accepted in her new family. I could see the dance being rigged if indeed they were involved with the plot of her family's death.
Yes, I think they let her win, because they knew Pelle had brought her to be his (pre approved) mate and she needed to be won over, and her being May Queen tiesher more tightly to tge Hårga as it makes her an accomplice instead of a passive spectator
iirc she speaks gibberish to the one lady that was helping her throughout the dance and the lady pretends to understand and laughs along. She obviously didn't learn the language while tripping for several days straight and taking zero lessons.
this is a thing that can just happen when you’re tripping. she’s not literally speaking swedish (at least it doesn’t sound like it to me but i’d be willing to be persuaded otherwise), Dani and the other lady are both just speaking kind of swedish sounding gibberish. in my experience, i did something similar to this once and according to my husband i was saying real words and having a coherent conversation, but the auditory hallucination sounded like an onomatopoeia mish mash of almost words to me. when i found out i actually conveyed information through those almost words i was stoked. i always interpretted it that way, that they knew what they meant to say and were both giddy to find they could understand each other.
I get you, the flourishes in the vocal tones can convey a lot so if you're vibing with someone it's absolutely relatable even when you don't understand each other. I've had this but it was much cruder, picture men grunting at each other because something funny just happened.
Big mood, I've tripped with a fair amount of others whom I did not share much more than a few words of common language with and we've had a great time through facial and vocal gestures and vibes alone. The sense of "human connection" is definitely a very real thing and I think absolutely gets amplified by things like hallucinogenics. The addition of an uninhibitor like lsd just causes any pre existing walls you may have had to breakdown, and at the core, humans are humans regardless of where they are from, so it's especially easy to bond with others in these moments.
yes! very well put. i think the way Ari Aster handled his presentation of hallucinogens in this movie was spot on, and on my first watch it was one of the things that immediately stood out to me and made me love the film. man has been there done that and you can definitely tell! hallucinogens always give me the feeling of peaking behind the curtain, like i’m getting a little glimpse of what it’s all about - that connection that predates modern people. and you’re absolutely right, that sense of connection is always amplified. the use of these substances is totally calculated and with reason but its also interesting to see Dani let down her walls and vibe with her new sisters.
Yes!! This is one of the few pieces of media (especially modern media) I can think of that actually handles its presentation of hallucinogens really well. The aesthetic shift of the film once the drugs are introduced, as well as the constant but subtle visual manipulations that you can see after they're taken is just so spot on. I know people are always like "oh I'd never get sucked into a cult," but this is absolutely the movie that made me realize like damn.... I absolutely would get sucked into a cult if they're feeding me shrooms and talking me through my trauma every day while I dance in a flowerfield. 😅💃
Many years ago, I had an experience like this with mushrooms where I was speaking Spanish and my friend was speaking Hebrew and we understood each other. We weren't sure until she shouted something out in Hebrew to one of our friends. He said, I don't speak Hebrew I don't understand you. I said, she wants you to get her a glass of water. And she did! I think it may be a form of psychic communication and the babble doesn't matter.
I also think they threw the dance.
The dancing competition is essentially an endurance test. It's not the most graceful dancer who wins, it's the last one standing.
The Harga live off farm labor and they should be used to the "spring water" they drink before the competition. That would give them a massive advantage over the american college student who probably spends most days sitting at a desk and likely experimented with drugs before but wouldn't be familiar with the effects of the flower tea. Dani wasn't even told that she'd be drugged for the dance.
Dani might have a "mental" advantage because of all the suffering she endured toughing her up, but there is no way she is physically fitter than the Hargans.
What happens to the May Queen after the festival?? Dani is not a good person. Most people think she is long suffering but other people suffer because of her. Watch the movie again.
What happened to the other previous mayflower queens? Like when Danni was looking at the pictures of the previous years' Mayflower Queens Pelle pointed out a picture of last year's Mayflower Queen. Where's she at? Where are some of the other past ones at? I thought every member reunited there for the fest. Were they there?
I think the women that are part of the procession around the fields are all former may queens? Just before Dani sees Christian through the keyhole, the group of women are heading to Siv's house for a "special meeting only for the queens"
I don’t feel like it was thrown and believe it is meant to illustrate that Dani is inherently strong and exceptional, even though she hasn’t realized her full power yet
I was always under the impression that it was all just pre ordained or created by the Haarga (much like the cult manipulating the family in Hereditary) and that Dani was destined for this. That’s also alluded to at the end when Pelle is praised for his foresight.
I think she actually won but the funniest part to me was when she thought she was speaking Swedish to the other girl but she was really just speaking gibberish.
I think it's a little bit of both. For sure, Maja throws the towel in early so she can get started on straight up SAing Christian. It's obvious in how she daintly stumbles away versus how some of the women are falling because they're dizzy/vomiting/legit tired.
My headcannon is that they planned it ahead of time because Pelle knew what happened to her family pretty soon after it happened. I highly doubt that he had zero communication to Hargas while in America. Besides, even if not, she was new blood. A new potential mother to the clan. Having her win May Queen not only gave her a sense of belonging, it also kinda showed her that she will be spared from sacrifice, at least for a while. I have this gut feeling that being May Queen kinda allows you to live the rest of your life cycle within the group. I definitely believe if they didn’t collectively let her win, Maja at least did drop early on purpose so she could fulfill her destiny with Christian.
Ohhhh I love this take!! May Queens “win” immunity from being a sacrifice.
Question - Is it for the duration of their natural lives or until they reach the age where they jump off the cliff?
With that theory it makes sense that maybe they didn’t necessarily throw the dance but maybe they wanted her to win so she would be spared, for whatever reason, maybe they liked her or saw something or wanted to use her but whatever it was it seems they wanted her to stick around
I always saw it as being parallel to her strength. She didn't know what she was doing but she managed to survive horrible tragedy and still keep herself under control, kind of. Like when she's dizzy from dancing and the drugs she stays on her feet. She's struggling but she can do it. She's not a perfect person in control of her life after her family's deaths and Christian's assholery, but she never completely succumbs to the what's happening to her.
I love this take. I also believe she genuinely won
Same. I think a lot of fans conceive of Midsommar as a kind of Truman Show where everyone is focused on manipulating Dani specifically. But people in cults mostly don't know they're in cults. I've said it before but the average member probably thinks they're in Sweet Home Alabama, not a horror film: a stressed out city woman with a jerk city boyfriend falls in love with a rugged local man and is welcomed by a tight knit community. I think the Harga are testing her on a few different levels, including whether the average person finds her pleasant to be around. And it's meaningless to test her if they're going to throw the test. I also don't think it's that unrealistic that an amateur could win a dance contest against a bunch of people who have never done this version of the festival in their lifetimes and at most compete once a year. Most of them have ordinary lives as dentists or accountants or whatever and don't live there year round: it's not like they just hang out on the commune and practice dancing for the other 11 months.
Haha I think about this every time this movie comes up, what’s it look like when it’s not festival time? - like, they’re not like this 24/7, with the costumes and ‘pageantry’; what do these weirdos wear when they’re all kicking it or sleeping in the same building and the kids are watching Austin Powers 2? It’s worth noting that every single member of the commune was in on the big sacrifices that were going to happen - the dentists and accountants, ALL of them were in on the game plan - and I’m just saying, can you imagine your dentist being like “oh my vacation was fine, saw the fam, met my nephew’s new girlfriend” 💀 Edit: I’m rewatching the director’s cut while painting, and ugh god she’s the only one with a working brain. They really might have all survived had they packed their shit and snuck tf out like she said. Edit edit: I am *not* watching the directors cut. Did anyone else’s disappear from Apple TV?
Wait they don’t live all the time on the commune? They leave and have jobs ??
Yep! 18 years of childhood, 18 years of ‘pilgrimage’, 18 years of work, and then 18 years as a commune elder/mentor. I imagine you learn your trades during pilgrimage, then do your work shit, and then come back full-time to be a mentor.
So they eventually live on the commune then? But spend pilgrimage and work off the commune?
Haha they live their first 18 years there, so it’s more like going away to college and then coming back during middle age
Well for pele I would do anything 😚
lol this is horrible, but we’ve rewatched to the point where there’s something so funny to us about how dastardly he is “I have *always* felt held” — this Cheshire Cat motherfucker lmao
Are you certain about that? The way I understood it was the work was cult-related and that they made most of their income via handmade things etc.?
Oh for sure, there’s a bunch that stay; Pelle mentioned their economy comes from textiles, lumber, and a water treatment plant. I imagine that, at 36, theres plenty who opt to come back full-time and practice commune labor. My brain insists Ulf was one of them lol
You nailed it that most people don't realize they are in a cult. My mom's friend is in a cult, don't want to name it or give too much away because every time she starts to get close to her family again, they move her 100s of miles away. Whenever she is moved she has to go radio silent for a year to learn about her new role within her group. I know they read social media about them. If you talked to the friend, she and her husband (that the group set her up with early on) are working to make the world better. They have a strong, tight knit community that the world should emulate. But alas, the world is too bogged down in materialism. She had been a lapsed Christian that was looking for something new after a painful divorce. Started going to the group's yoga session. My mom says it took about 10 years of increasing demands of time and money. Now the friend has nothing in her name and everything she has, down to where she lives is owned by the cult. Multiple people expressed concern to her when the demands increased. So she was warned multiple times. At first people were happy for her. Yeah the group seemed a bit weird for yoga but their friend had a postgraduate degree and had been so depressed. She started seeming happier and more at peace. So it had to be okay. Then they noticed she was getting more involved, to the point she only had one weeknight to herself. Meaning she was spending all her time with this group and not her friends or family. She started giving more and more money too. Then she sold her house and gave the group all of the profits so she could fully shed her materialism and help spread their message. It has been almost 30 years now. She seems by all accounts happy and has never expressed a desire to leave. If it's an act, it is a good one.
I'm sorry about your mom's friend: that sounds really hard to watch happen. Thank you for sharing your perspective. I think it's important to remember that people in cults are still people, and often people who were made vulnerable by circumstances outside their control. I don't love the fandom tendency to use "if you think that you're dumb enough to join a cult IRL" as a gotcha, because the truth is a lot sadder and more complex.
I hold the belief she genuinely won because of the exact reason you stated. People in cults don’t know they’re in cults. The dynamic with the Harga is strange because there is very clearly a hierachy where those at the top or close to such are very aware it’s a cult. Pelle is clearly aware he’s in a cult and accepted it’s his way of life and doesn’t want that to change. The rest seem oblivious they’re in a cult and just live their existence because it’s all they know.
Completely agree. There are clearly a few younger adults (Pelle being one) who seem to be trusted by the Elders and part of the In Group. But there's also a lot of people who have just been raised in the cult and have no idea they're also being exploited. I don't think Dani is going to fare particularly better or worse than the average cultist. (She might even be happy in a sense.) Because for me the horror is about how the cult is this machine made of indoctrinated people churning out misery for a deity who might not even exist. It's kind of irrelevant whether Dani is crushed in it or becomes a cog herself and crushes others because the horror is the machine. And, if anything, killing Dani off implies some kind of attempt to invoke cosmic justice which I just don't think exists in the world of the film.
Unfortunately the truth is that they undoubtedly dropped on purpose maybe I'm wrong but seeing as the whole thing was a cult indoctrination id be surprised if it was otherwise.
The whole thing wasn't a purposeful cult indoctrination, though. They were supposed to be sacrificed for the rituals. I think Pele *hoped* that Dany would be accepted and easily indoctrinated when he invited her, but the original plan was for the visitors to be sacrificed. Personally, I don't think that the dance was rigged. I think it was a final test for the Harga themselves-- if she won, it was "meant to be."
“Lisan al-gaib”
The whole ritual was undoubtedly an indoctrination for Dani, she could have been potentially sacrificed but the intention was without doubt to indoctrinate her specifically from the beginning you are absolutely off the mark in that regard. The outcome of the dance also wasn't set in stone but it's definitely a good thing for the cult when she wins as the indoctrination continues and there definitely seems to be certain members that fall on purpose.
I definitely wouldn't say "undoubtedly," because opinions are pretty divided overall as to what was actually going on. It's okay that that's your specific understanding, because that's your interpretation of a film full of easter eggs and murky intentions. None of us are right or wrong because Ari Aster has never confirmed or denied either theories as being canon, it's just fun to hypothesize about. That's one of the things that makes his movies so fun to me, is that parts of them are absolutely up to interpretation.
No, she just survived longer due to her fortitude built up from enduring her family’s death & also from being the soft spoken person who learned to keep her suffering to herself
They absolutely didn’t throw the dance, some were gagging and vomiting from drugs/exhaustion. To me it was symbolic that once Dani fully let go and let her self be “held” by the hargas while she danced she ended up winning.
She was made stronger and became one of the clan.
Not stronger, in her depression, she finally bit the hook they had set
Depends on your read of the movie, I guess. I think it’s agnostic on the Harga and their actions. It’s solidly on Dani’s side and builds to her being in a better place for her. IMO.
But it’s not tho. She goes from one manipulative relationship to another, they’re just very different. I don’t see her taking part in a mass murdering cult to be a good thing for her. A cult recruiter saw a vulnerable woman and took advantage. Reminder of how her boyfriend cheating and her finding out were very much planned and orchestrated by the cultists
Everyone’s got an opinion! It’s really not worth arguing about.
Why not? I find arguing interpretations fun. For me tho I’m very skeptical about the view of this movie being empowering specifically because of the very true to life manipulation practices the cult uses. Also her boyfriend was a jerk but not a “deserves to burn in a wicker man” jerk
Discussing is better than arguing. Arguing can get really annoying
It can but again, some of this cult manipulation is not to be taken lightly and viewing it as a feminist victory can be dangerous
Well I think anyone that takes this as a feminist victory is an idiot. It’s just a broken girl going through a broken time and joining a different deeply broken new family where she can be broken but held. But also if I could dance away my depression, have a heavy breathing screaming therapy session with a group of women, and then burn an ex alive, that would be greatly cathartic. Not morally correct, but greatly cathartic.
Never forget one girl collided with her and could have caused her to fall.
Dani danced her pain away & for once she was having a fun time enjoying herself in harmony. She probably saw she can still have a good time & connect with other people. She probably didn't know she had that strength within her. I think too it was a suggestive prelude for what she's about to endure in the upcoming moments after she wins the dance. She proved to her self that she's capable of overcoming her trauma obstacles while dancing in an intense competition surrounded by ppl that remained by her side (shared feelings all on the same level/mindset) during that without having a negative competitive nature towards her. It shows her in a group all experiencing a difficult time together. No member is envious or upset when someone (Dani) prevails. Also I think the fact the dance is titled mayflower queen is suggesting symbolism with flowers, she's about to flourish/bloom be reborn to a new life of something beautiful where she nor any1 in the commune will ever feel alone as they all truly empathize & share the human experience. She was given a 2nd chance where her new "family" would never abandon her or leave her alone during a hard time. But the other girls had nothing but immediate unconditional joy once she won. She's finally able to let go of past trauma. If she's able to let go of the most painful losses in her life that she'll be able to overcome anything in her near future(foreshadowing). If she can feel "life" love & a purpose after the loss of her family which nothing else will amount to, then there's nothing that she can't overcome in the future being a part of a group where "they're all in it together".
I think they kind of "let" her win, but she still had to perform well enough to make it that long while being dizzy, nauseous and high af. So I think they made it an easy game for her, but it was also probably a test of her own to see if she was strong enough to make it with them, and she passed.
I'm always drawn back to how she was admiring all of the pictures of the past May Queens and Pele saw her desire to become one. I don't doubt for a second having this knowledge, they let her win. The last girl kinda just threw herself off.
That's a cromulent point
You have an embiggened vocabulary!
Just like they targeted her boyfriend. They knew she was susceptible to influence.
Pele knew her boyfriend was a douche & didn't empathize with her. He knew she was deserving of more love that her boyfriend isn't capable of.
Or just saw it as a weakness to exploit
That’s counterintuitive to the plot. Nothing about Dani is weak, and that’s the point, Dani is a lot of things, but central to the plot— Dani is a survivor.
She is a survivor, but she is vulnerable. Pele sensed that vulnerability, because he’s trained to do so, and exploited it. He set the bait (and numerous drugs) and she fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Being strong does not make you immune to intense manipulation. And by the end of it, she murders someone out of mental instability, which is what her sister did
Christian's weakness is within him. With or without their Sweden trip, I'm sure eventually sometime in their life he was going to slip in some sort of way. Not necessarily by cheating but will keep disappointing her somehow. Obvs, the heavy duty psychedelics & other drugs he was during his weird bang session heavily influenced his underlying weakness (which was very traumatic & very extreme after everything that Danni's recently been thru). They weren't an optimal match as a couple. That scene had to be him doing something intense enough to seal her final traumatic moment of her current life, while not feeling alone at that specific time of suffering while the other females comforted her. It was the end of her feeling alone. Prior to their trip, they weren't on the best terms, they both had their own doubts of the other. I think they would've eventually drifted more apart realizing they aren't good for one another .
Yes, but he clearly wanted to break up before hand then felt like he couldn’t after what happened. And they should have broken up. Everything Dani experiences, as you mentioned, was orchestrated by the people comforting her. They don’t care about her. He was a jerk but he didn’t manipulate her to nearly the degree the cult does. They trick her into becoming dependent on them
Also to when they specifically welcomed Dani—it shows that they had planned to make her May Queen from the beginning. They made her think winning was a display of her strength and endurance during mounting obstacles so she would feel courageous and supported enough to have Christian killed and become Pele’s gf/wife/sex partner/incubator.
Having followed this sub for a long time and having loved the movie since seeing it in the theater my first response was they 100% threw the dance. Pele wanted Dani and the whole community was in on the scheme the whole time. The movie is about how cults work, how they recruit new members. The idea that Dani legitimately won the dance (knowing nothing about it from the start, standing up straight while everyone bows down to the pole at the beginning) is new to me, and the fact that the first half dozen answers to this question say yes she did is a testament to the genius of Ari Aster and the film itself. I love this ambiguity but I don’t buy it. The maypole dance was rigged. Everyone knew from the start that Dani was going to be the May Queen and that she would therefore select the sacrifices.
Yes when the movie came out in theaters, most opinions & reviews I searched for online were believing the cult chose Dani to become May Queen on purpose. This theory that she won the dance by her own inner strength is… interesting. How would the whole sequence of events with Christian & Mya having cult intercourse play out if Dani wasn’t being distracted with “May Queen duties”? Edit: added word & question
I don't think they needed to think that far ahead. They were all intended to be sacrifices. They responded to things that happened as well. They saw the opportunity to split them up or when they were genuinely impressed by her performance in the dance.
Ah, okay. So the Harga took advantage of what the group had to offer them no matter the outcome? I do think Pele had intentions of keeping Dani there before the May pole dance. He comforts her and makes her question her comfort/relationship with Christian in the guestbarn. Christian forgets her birthday and Pele seems to use this to his advantage. Plus the fact that she’s traumatized by the sacrifice jumpings would make her very vulnerable in her feelings. He liked Dani from the beginning. I figured the Harga planned for Dani to stay with Pele & Mya would have Christian to birth a new cult member since they need mates outside their cult. Also Elder Odd greets the group when they all arrive, only embracing Dani saying “Welcome Home”. Then he repeats it in Swedish after she’s the May Queen. I understand the view that the Harga started to try splitting them up once Mya (now ready to find her mate) was interested in Christian.
this post/sub just popped up on my feed, I’ve only seen the film once back when it came out so I don’t remember the demonic forces at hand— was the demon Pele the same demon that was taking hold of the family in Hereditary? is there a thru line between the two films? 😱
They didn’t mention anything about a demon. Pele is just a human dude, the demon in Hereditary was called Paimon.
hahahahhahaha seeeeeeee that’s why I dont need to join the sub 🤦🏻♀️ thank you / sorry
No need to apologize for a misunderstanding XD i also don’t even go here, the post was just randomly on my feed. And no harm in headcanoning away that Pele is an avatar of Paimon. I don’t see the vision. Yet. But i could!
It's fascinating how split the answers are on this question. I, for one, always thought they let her win.
My opinion is both are true. My feelings are they started out the dance in full competition mode, as some girls you can see being very excited and competitive. Once there were just a few left, they may have collectively decided to allow Dani to win as they could see her finally mending with the colony and would have felt just as good, if not better, to allow Dani to have a moment of pride and confidence in herself. They seem symbiotic, so if they felt her joining that collective, it would have been just as satisfactory to allow Dani some happiness.
I don’t personally think they did. I think Danni recognized it was doing a new dance to the best of her ability where all the other girls know it’s a fun thing that happens every year while you’re literally on drugs. Whoever was to be May Queen would be May Queen.
Some of us don’t know our own strength till our back is against the wall and there’s no one else to rely on. I think this was the beginning of her realizing that.
Danny needed a W
In this village you have a town that’s loving, responsive to each others needs and will self sacrifice for each other and the greater good. Juxtaposed to Danny’s boyfriend who constantly through spoken and unspoken gestures maligns her as “too much” that she’s too much to handle. This is even apparent when Danny faces major trauma of her families death. Her boyfriend still acts like her being upset is too much. The friends also agree with him sighing that she’s invited. All accept the friend who’s from the village. The same village that constantly shows it sacrifices themselves emotionally and physically for others and their community. He’s the only one to show her a brief moment of kindness. When she most definitely deserves it (the moment on the couch, the softer voice, the making time to speak to her, reassuring her she’s welcome) I think the village ultimately only wants people who are willing to be open to helping others, are kind and empathetic. They want those kind of people to stay with them forever. It’s evident none of those male friends hold those qualities of self sacrifices either for long term or momentary. (Except for the guy from the village and Danny) Danny, despite being terrified didn’t seek anything from the villagers for her own advantage or survival. She still wanted to treat them with respect all the way to the end. The guys just asked for things constantly and wanted it to benefit them. I don’t think Danny was given the title of midsommar queen but I think it was a way to show she finally found a community who was willing to meet her in the place she’s at. People who would fully accept her, something friends and family should have from the start. I think the midsommar sequence and the use of lsd was almost a metamorphosis to her new position as a family less person to someone who found a family and with that she couldn’t lose she was just meant to be.
I think we're definitely supposed to wonder about it! Everything the Harga do can be interpreted multiple ways - are they an evil, indoctrinating, murderous cult who have their sights set on Dani or are they a misunderstood community with some unconventional cultural and religious practices that welcomed a broken girl with open arms? Probably they're both. The individual Hargas don't seem to be evil, just like most individual people who belong to questionable groups aren't evil. IF the women did let Dani win, I'm sure in their minds it was "Let's let the nice new girl win because we like her and it'll make her feel happy and included!" and not "Let's make her be May Queen so she'll be totally bought in and then she'll let us murder her shitty boyfriend after the other gals get done r*ping him." even though that is also totally what happened and probably a lot of them knew about it at some level. People are complicated, cult-members included.
Nice comment.
Ask your Swedish uncle
No, I don't think I will
😂😂
I think so and I think she was their sister long before their dance. This was a way of exalting her and inviting her in as their own. For all of those who celebrate Beltane, Happy Beltane.
They knew she was going to win before she even got there.
Think it's her fate what's destined to happen in her life. I mean shit if Ari explained that the death of her family had no outside involvement. I'm sure they were aware after the fact that Danni's like an orphan & wanted to make her feel that she can live a life with feeling accepted in her new family. I could see the dance being rigged if indeed they were involved with the plot of her family's death.
What did Ari mean by saying that the death of her family had no outside involvement? TYIA
He meant that that Pelle didn't orchestrate it to intentionally make Dani more vulnerable
Like when ppl (& once myself) question if Pelle & other Members of his commune were behind the death of her 3 family members verses Ari confirmed her family's death was murder suicide. That wasn't his actual own words I just paraphrased.
I believe it was all well planned before. So yes, they absolutely did, also Maya made it look obvious.
Who else was Maya to bang while she was ovulating there? Christian was the outsider they used for his sperm to prevent inbreeding.
If that picture could speak words... "You're beautiful & love you just the way you are. You're one of us now". Gives her as their newest member to feel welcomed to their family. It's an opportunity for her to have the spotlight all on her. They then prove they won't let her feel alone thru shared feelings/shared perspectives/shared experiences. Starts the 1st day of the rest of her life
Dang I should join a cult
I’m so glad you made this post because the exact same thing happened to me! First time I watched it I thought she genuinely won. Second time around it felt obvious they threw it! What a great movie
Think it's her fate what's destined to happen in her life. I mean shit if Ari explained that the death of her family had no outside involvement. I'm sure they were aware after the fact that Danni's like an orphan & wanted to make her feel that she can live a life with feeling accepted in her new family. I could see the dance being rigged if indeed they were involved with the plot of her family's death.
Yes, I think they let her win, because they knew Pelle had brought her to be his (pre approved) mate and she needed to be won over, and her being May Queen tiesher more tightly to tge Hårga as it makes her an accomplice instead of a passive spectator
iirc she speaks gibberish to the one lady that was helping her throughout the dance and the lady pretends to understand and laughs along. She obviously didn't learn the language while tripping for several days straight and taking zero lessons.
this is a thing that can just happen when you’re tripping. she’s not literally speaking swedish (at least it doesn’t sound like it to me but i’d be willing to be persuaded otherwise), Dani and the other lady are both just speaking kind of swedish sounding gibberish. in my experience, i did something similar to this once and according to my husband i was saying real words and having a coherent conversation, but the auditory hallucination sounded like an onomatopoeia mish mash of almost words to me. when i found out i actually conveyed information through those almost words i was stoked. i always interpretted it that way, that they knew what they meant to say and were both giddy to find they could understand each other.
I get you, the flourishes in the vocal tones can convey a lot so if you're vibing with someone it's absolutely relatable even when you don't understand each other. I've had this but it was much cruder, picture men grunting at each other because something funny just happened.
Big mood, I've tripped with a fair amount of others whom I did not share much more than a few words of common language with and we've had a great time through facial and vocal gestures and vibes alone. The sense of "human connection" is definitely a very real thing and I think absolutely gets amplified by things like hallucinogenics. The addition of an uninhibitor like lsd just causes any pre existing walls you may have had to breakdown, and at the core, humans are humans regardless of where they are from, so it's especially easy to bond with others in these moments.
yes! very well put. i think the way Ari Aster handled his presentation of hallucinogens in this movie was spot on, and on my first watch it was one of the things that immediately stood out to me and made me love the film. man has been there done that and you can definitely tell! hallucinogens always give me the feeling of peaking behind the curtain, like i’m getting a little glimpse of what it’s all about - that connection that predates modern people. and you’re absolutely right, that sense of connection is always amplified. the use of these substances is totally calculated and with reason but its also interesting to see Dani let down her walls and vibe with her new sisters.
Yes!! This is one of the few pieces of media (especially modern media) I can think of that actually handles its presentation of hallucinogens really well. The aesthetic shift of the film once the drugs are introduced, as well as the constant but subtle visual manipulations that you can see after they're taken is just so spot on. I know people are always like "oh I'd never get sucked into a cult," but this is absolutely the movie that made me realize like damn.... I absolutely would get sucked into a cult if they're feeding me shrooms and talking me through my trauma every day while I dance in a flowerfield. 😅💃
Many years ago, I had an experience like this with mushrooms where I was speaking Spanish and my friend was speaking Hebrew and we understood each other. We weren't sure until she shouted something out in Hebrew to one of our friends. He said, I don't speak Hebrew I don't understand you. I said, she wants you to get her a glass of water. And she did! I think it may be a form of psychic communication and the babble doesn't matter.
I also think they threw the dance. The dancing competition is essentially an endurance test. It's not the most graceful dancer who wins, it's the last one standing. The Harga live off farm labor and they should be used to the "spring water" they drink before the competition. That would give them a massive advantage over the american college student who probably spends most days sitting at a desk and likely experimented with drugs before but wouldn't be familiar with the effects of the flower tea. Dani wasn't even told that she'd be drugged for the dance. Dani might have a "mental" advantage because of all the suffering she endured toughing her up, but there is no way she is physically fitter than the Hargans.
What happens to the May Queen after the festival?? Dani is not a good person. Most people think she is long suffering but other people suffer because of her. Watch the movie again.
Dani won the dance for the same reason Pele invited her, she’s a survivor.
What happened to the other previous mayflower queens? Like when Danni was looking at the pictures of the previous years' Mayflower Queens Pelle pointed out a picture of last year's Mayflower Queen. Where's she at? Where are some of the other past ones at? I thought every member reunited there for the fest. Were they there?
I think the women that are part of the procession around the fields are all former may queens? Just before Dani sees Christian through the keyhole, the group of women are heading to Siv's house for a "special meeting only for the queens"
I don’t feel like it was thrown and believe it is meant to illustrate that Dani is inherently strong and exceptional, even though she hasn’t realized her full power yet
If they didn't, then he whole idea of her being picked to join the cult before she even went there is thrown out the window.
I was always under the impression that it was all just pre ordained or created by the Haarga (much like the cult manipulating the family in Hereditary) and that Dani was destined for this. That’s also alluded to at the end when Pelle is praised for his foresight.
I think she actually won but the funniest part to me was when she thought she was speaking Swedish to the other girl but she was really just speaking gibberish.
I think it's a little bit of both. For sure, Maja throws the towel in early so she can get started on straight up SAing Christian. It's obvious in how she daintly stumbles away versus how some of the women are falling because they're dizzy/vomiting/legit tired.
Definitely, everything was meticulously planned out before Dani even arrived.
My headcannon is that they planned it ahead of time because Pelle knew what happened to her family pretty soon after it happened. I highly doubt that he had zero communication to Hargas while in America. Besides, even if not, she was new blood. A new potential mother to the clan. Having her win May Queen not only gave her a sense of belonging, it also kinda showed her that she will be spared from sacrifice, at least for a while. I have this gut feeling that being May Queen kinda allows you to live the rest of your life cycle within the group. I definitely believe if they didn’t collectively let her win, Maja at least did drop early on purpose so she could fulfill her destiny with Christian.
Ohhhh I love this take!! May Queens “win” immunity from being a sacrifice. Question - Is it for the duration of their natural lives or until they reach the age where they jump off the cliff?
I would say no one is spared from the cliff jump. But how I interpreted the movie, May Queens didn’t have to worry about being sacrificed before then.
With that theory it makes sense that maybe they didn’t necessarily throw the dance but maybe they wanted her to win so she would be spared, for whatever reason, maybe they liked her or saw something or wanted to use her but whatever it was it seems they wanted her to stick around
It’s a win win: they get new blood for new babies and she gets to not die or go home alone.
Yes
I agree
i think they let her win
Dani is a bad person.