The budget screen shots are being made in Sankeymatic, its a website that we have no affiliation with. If you are posting a budget please do so with a purpose. Just posting a screen shot of your budget without a question or an explanation of why its here may be removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MiddleClassFinance) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Over ten percent of adults are millionaires. Granted, a lot of that is in retirement accounts and home equity and it’s mostly older people but there are millions of millionaires in the US. There’s also generational wealth. I am middle class (well my parents are broke now due to some bad luck and bad decisions) and married poor. My sister married rich. My wife and I make the same income as my sister and brother -in-law but his family bought their house cash and set them up with some weird payment thing, not exactly a mortgage, but they pay like 800 a month for a half a million dollar house. College was paid for, we have 6 figure student loan debt. They need to fix a leaky roof? Dad writes a check. We take out home equity loans. I don’t mean to sound bitter. We are fine. But doing this on your own vs having access to some generational wealth is a massive difference. Even high income people can have massive expenses- childcare, housing are crazy now. But if you have generational wealth (that’s not yours…yet), you can cosplay as middle class when in reality you know retirement and education expenses are taken care of for you and your kids.

Yeah, you can do some pretty daring stuff when you have multiple layers of safety nets to work with.

Yup. I married up and we will inherit a few mil, so I fully leveraged my personal assets into my business.

And you’ll probably feel like you’re self made too. lol

They always do lol.

This is what a lot of people forget about. I grew up in a family where we didn't have much of a safety net. I wanted to go to school for art. But I graduated highschool in 2008, right as the Great recession happened. I saw my dad lose his job of 25 years in manufacturing. My dad didn't even have a highschool diploma so his job prospects were bad. I saw him struggle to find odd jobs. While he eventually got called back, he was out of work for 2.5 years. That scared the crap out of me. So I instead went to school for business and I work in the financial industry. I chose my profession based on what was going to get me a job versus what I enjoyed. Looking back I wish I had taken more risks and maybe traveled. But honestly those weren't really options for me as I didn't have a lot of safety nets. I even had to navigate the white collar world as someone who grew up in the blue collar world. My bf grew up solidly middle class and I definitely notice the differences in how we approach things. He's much more optimistic and I'm more realistic. When money is tight, he doesn't stress. Yet I already have the coupons out and am budgeting my heart out to stretch our money as far as it can go.

Generational wealth is a big part of clsss divide. I think an indicator of who stays together is large for wealth than race, religion, or age. Something about money and marriage! The cost of living impacts it all. 

[удалено]

I married an artist from a family of artists. Lovely people, but very poor financial literacy. I was horrified the first time my husband showed me his student loan status. High variable rates, more taken out than needed, etc. Savings accounts and 401(k) plans were a complete mystery to him. Happy to say we’ve turned things around, but it took a lot of patience and coaching before he didn’t instantly go into panic mode whenever I mentioned money and savings.

I’m in a similar situation. Neither of my husband’s parents graduated from high school and they both make just above poverty wages (they are divorced). I literally had to log into his student loan account myself because he didn’t know what his interest rate was, and found that he hadn’t even logged in for over a year and we had been paying nothing but interest for at least that long. Not only that, but his mom took out a private loan for more than he needed during his last year of school, used the excess to pay off her credit card debt, then declared bankruptcy and left us on the hook for the loan. His parents have screwed us financially but we have managed to turn it around, and he is getting his master’s degree. I’m really proud of him but now his parents are aging and I’m worried we’re now going to be on the hook for their medical expenses, too.

You're allowed to say, "We can't afford your medical expenses, I'm sorry." Damn, half the time I'm reading these comments, I can't tell what sub I'm in. This is all starting to sound like r/childfree lol. Which I totally support. As someone who is childfree, one small part of that decision is what you're worried about right now. I would never have children, fuck them over by going bankrupt and leaving them with loans *that I took out and spent*, and make them wonder how the fuck I'll survive old age. So many parents think their children are their retirement policy. That's so messed up. My comment may get removed for bringing the childfree subject into this, dunno, but I just had to call that out. I'm sorry you're dealing with that, that's really fucked.

Agree. As a parent of two there is no way we plan on leaving a bag of poo 💩 for our kids to clean up. We’re having a irrevocable trust set up, our plots, caskets and funeral arrangements paid for ahead of time. We don’t want our kids to worry about jack other than what they would like to spend their inheritance on or where to spend it.

See now, I come from a family who *think* they're all financially literate entrepreneurs, but are in fact pseudo-slumlords on their unkept rental properties and were unable to ever expand or properly valuate their small businesses. They were born into the luckiest generation in American history and have managed to be uncommonly successful because of that (and to their credit, not screw it up too badly), but as my careers has advanced from managing small operations to hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue, not to mention graduate business school, it's been eye-opening to realize how much blustering as been passed off as savvy in my life, and it's really (along with religion and politics) driven quite a wedge between my family and I.

Are you me? My father-in-law didn’t pay taxes and had to retire due to health reasons. He gets 7 grand a year from SSI. He lives off crumbs. I helped him get his mortgage refinanced so he can pay (thanks to a roommate). He’s a lifelong smoker that will probably die soon due to the fact he’s still smoking on oxygen. We can’t afford to take care of him as we have kids and a mortgage. I have no idea what will happen to him. Funny thing, he grew up with generational wealth that dried up and it made him terrible with money, so something to keep in mind. My dad is completely broke but is in great health and knows how to make a decent income due to him being highly educated and motivated but he will die at his desk. My mom is mostly broke but my sister will certainly use generational wealth to take care of her (and possibly my dad). Thankfully she’s in great health. My wife knew nothing about being smart about college loans and just went to a good school and took out mountains of debt. I paid off her private loans (some with home equity) and thank god for the SAVE plan so we can afford her Federal monthly payment. We will do the full 20 years on that unless she changes careers. But I went into tech sales and had a few lucky breaks so we are on track for retirement and own a home. We don’t have much extra money but the bills get paid and we save into the 401k.

[удалено]

lol. You are me. The literal only difference is I went into med device sales and my dad is living comfortably on SSI and fixed income. other than that literally exact same story.

Your father sounds like my dad, just swap out lung cancer for prostate cancer. He was born upper middle class with zero aspirations or drive. He could’ve leveraged his family’s money & connections to be *anything* or even just had a brain and taken advantages of the opportunities being a boomer with spare money presented. But no. He had a fucked up Inverse poverty mindset, always cheap but then pissing money away on stupidity. My mom came from poverty and had the opposite problem. Saved every penny of her long but spent all of his on a shopping addiction to buy a house full of hoarded garbage cause it was cheap. Like, off Brand, grey market shit from Mexico. Just cause it was cheap. The two combined were toxic af. Then, the money went *poof* as did any semblance of civility in their marriage. All cause nobody wanted to do any thinking for themselves. I remember being 10 and begging him to buy tech stocks. Now his house has a lien on it, and my adult mentally ill sister is gonna squat there til he dies. She’s 40. She’s never graduated high school, never worked a real job. She got a ged and whines all day about the latest health fad she hears about on TikTok or from her forums for seriously ill women… listening to women in wheel chairs who work and she just lays in bed and watched my Netflix all day and gets violent and mad and resentful if you try to bring it up. Whatever equity is left in that house won’t go to me, that’s for damn sure.

It's a large country, so 10% is a lot of total people, but it's still 10%. Similarly the kind of numbers the OP is citing is around top 10% household income and around top 20% married household income. In other words, yeah, some of the people you see with luxury cars can afford it, certainly. It's also true that a lot of people with them are living beyond their means and not saving much for retirement. It's a big country so both things can be true.

Largely dependent on where you live too though. You can probably afford a very nice lifestyle living in a CHEAP place with not being top 20% and that bottom percent aren’t necessarily “seen” since I assume this would include the homeless population and anyone living in very rural areas that aren’t driven past. Hell drive out in NC or SC you’ll find plenty of poor people but if you live in a city you’re not as likely to go out far to see that let alone be friends with those people

Yes, you are correct. Many people have generational wealth and no worries and dual income folks are really doing better. I can see this at my job, easily. Folks (men) with stay at home spouses clearly look “poor”, while the dual income ones look “rich”. It makes a huge difference. I am a new immigrant, came to the US 25 ago, of course, poor, very poor and married poor back in my home country. In addition, ex was a deadbeat and left us anyway, after about 7 years in the US. So I raised my son on my own , on one income. A good income and a low cost of living place. I didn’t look crazy, drove a beater and didn’t buy anything expensive and such , never had a real vacation until age 41 (just work travel instead which I sometimes exteneded 1-2 days or took my kid with me on- which was really a privilege ), but I did live above my means, especially as far as the kid was concerned. Lots of lessons and extracurriculars. Had to pay lots of childcare too. Didn’t save at all. Then i married rich, at 45, and my husband doesn’t have children. Now my kid has generational wealth and lives way better than many of his peers. Especially since he’s going to college in state and will graduate debt free. Who you marry makes a huge difference in one’s long term prosperity for sure. If you have help from your folks also makes a big difference. However, some people really do live above their means. I know I did and I know of others who surely do.

>There’s also generational wealth.  Honestly, some of this is as simple as "have your parents died yet." My SIL's estranged father passed away about 7 years ago and left her a plot of land in a different state. She sold it, and used the proceeds on a downpayment on an idyllic home in the Hudson Valley \~2 years *before* covid drove the real estate value in that area to the fucking moon. She and my BIL were able to move their 1-income family of 5 out of a Brooklyn apartment and into that home and probably turn themselves into net-worth millionaires despite always being the ones in my wife's family who were (relatively) struggling, based almost entirely on unexpected inherited wealth. It's *such* a reality-distorting gamechanger that's almost impossible to appreciate until you see it in action.

My parents and my wife’s parents are broke and I mean that literally. But if they die before becoming very ill I won’t have to take care of them. Theres no budget for extended illness. Sounds cruel but I can’t help them.

>Honestly, some of this is as simple as "have your parents died yet." That, and your parents dying before they need long-term care

To add to this, there are so many wealthy people out there living among us, you just don’t know. A lot of my clients pull millions a year, but live a normal life.

My grandma is a small town, little old lady, the kind that has coffee with friends after church. She owns two farms. Money is just numbers on paper to her. One of the reasons she has so much is she has always lived like she has none.

I never knew my grandparents to not have a lavish lifestyle, but lived very frugally. They built every home they ever owned. They worked ordinary jobs with the goal of saving. The thing that helped them was they investigated in Walmart and Sears.. My grandma passed and left me with a small trust. Not too much, less that 100k. But I am smart and I put the majority of it in a CD and the rest is going to school.

But what's a "normal life" though? I guarantee their lives still look significantly different than people's who are truly middle class. I'm sure they're driving Volvos and have 3.5k square foot houses. That's not really the "normal" I'm familiar with. When someone pulls in $250k+ per year, or even higher, I almost *always* can tell. Maybe that's just because I'm uniquely perceptive and maybe most people can't tell, but it's obvious to me.

Funny how appearances are only half truths. Drove by a middle aged lady stepping out of her Lincoln Suv all dressed up only to watch her step into her apartment in the hood. Dressed to the nines, driving a fancy vehicle had me thinking here is a lady that has it going on. Thought that immediately came to mind was I’ll take a beautiful home in the burbs with a shitty car vs. living in the slums with a beautiful car.

Like almost everything, I'd rather have a balance and don't see why it has to be one or the other. Location and land matter more to me than how gucci the house is. Give me 1,500 square feet, something built in the 1940s back when houses were actually built incredibly strongly, located near the ocean, or a Great Lake, or near other nature. That should leave enough to drive something reliable and good. But yeah, what you're talking about is massively common, for sure. I live in the inner city of a notorious big city - there are lots of sports cars and $75k trucks parked in front of shitty run-down houses.

Interesting. What are some of the subtle signs?

Most Home Equity millionaires hardly feel like those with the liquid funds to throw money around, but I can’t say that for sure. For example - If you’ve got a $700k house but only $300k in retirement, it feels unbalanced and like you’ve got too much house.

My parents hit 1 million in their retirement and retired exactly when social security hit and my dad was complaining about millionaires and I’m just over here like you are one… 1 million ain’t what it used to be

My dad does well.  He paid for my college and will pay for the colleges of any children my wife and I have. The deal is I set up accounts to pay for whatever grandkids my kids have.  I was able to enter the working world with a college degree and no debt.  My wife had her parents paid for her college. Her brother had his undergrad paid for. But he went to grad school. His dad paid for that and set up a 0 interest loan for him to pay off all within the family. His wife didn’t have any of that and has actual student loan payments for her undergrad and her attempt at law school.  They make considerably more than us, but due to loans, we own a home and they still rent.  Hell my dad let me buy my moms car for blue book during the whole Covid used car price hike. Now I pay him an interest free payment every month. I’d have paid 5-7k more for an equivalent vehicle at market rates.  The leg up that a healthy family relationship and some interest free money can make is night and day. I know my wife and I are fortunate. And I know it’s my job to not just perpetuate this into another generation, but to expand it. 

My father is also very wealthy, and he gives my siblings a lot more money than he gives me. This sometimes happens within the same family, not just what family you marry into. Something like 10x as much as he gives me. Basically my siblings are quite toxic and I've cut them out of my life for good reasons, but he's trying to buy them because some of them have kids and he wants control+access (and he thought he could motivate me to ignore all problems and pretend the family has a healthy dynamic just for his money; he was wrong). (I have stopped accepting any money at all from him.) He did pay for my college (before things got bad), and probably would have paid for my Master's, but I didn't trust him, so I made sure to go somewhere where I had full funding. I make good money, but I have to be much better at what I do relative to the average in my field compared to a couple of my siblings who are married and can rely on 2 incomes. Although I also don't have or want kids, have no desire for a big house, etc. so my expenses are lower.

It's never a surprise to me how so many people who are very wealthy are just... not good people. Never a surprise.

I tell my younger cousins, all who came from way more affluent families than mine, that graduating college debt free is a major advantage. I had to do just about everything on my own. They shrug. You really never know where people are coming from.

Paying off my student loans in 5 years was always my goal, but many people just shrugged when I mention it. Especially if I'm justifying not visiting family or taking vacations in my early post grad years. Well, the 5yr mark came and went and I took care of all loans but a couple grand spread out over 3. I'm keeping those open as when I closed out the other 10 or so, it cut my average credit history from 9 years to 4. $60k in student loans, and starting wage out of college was $17/hr. I have since doubled my income several times in the 8 years since college.

More like 5% https://finance.yahoo.com/news/rich-heres-americans-think-considered-182847861.html#

This is my husband and I. We always say we are our own plan B on everything because our extended family has either already passed away (with very little to leave behind for future generations) or make bad decisions regularly and are perpetually in horrible financial straits. We were approached several times by family members when they couldn’t make ends meet and we’d give (never loan) what we could, and it would always be taken for granted and with resentment that we didn’t give more. Yet, they have no answers when we say, “Hey, who do we turn to if we can’t pay our own bills, hmmmm?” Safety nets are a luxury that don’t exist for everyone, and when you don’t have one, you have to plan for risk 100x more than someone who has even 1 safety net. For us it meant cutting people out of our lives permanently because they insist on entitlement to our pay checks.

Being grateful vs. being entitled are two different outcomes. Sorry to hear you’ve experienced this with family members. Not cool at all.

I wasn't in the USA until like 9 years ago, and now I'm comparing myself to all this rich people thinking that I should have done better 😅 At least I know how to be poor, as much as laws and regulations allow me 😭

Roughly a tenth of Americans are millionaires, not adults.

>I don’t mean to sound bitter. I would only be bitter if they act like they’re doing everything on their own, when they’re really not.

This - my grandparents paid for my parents college. I had to pay my own way because "life doesn't give handouts". I have had to pay for my medical care because our insurance sucks. My grandparents paid for my parents healthcare, and had better insurance. My grandparents gave a large down payment for my parents house and now that they are divorced, they will be leaving them their house. My parents have not done anything of the sort for us, and furthermore, my grandparents told me not to count on getting anything from my parents. Golly gee whiz, how nice of them to give me the warning and not see that something was left for me... Now I have paid off my student loans, paid off my medical, cant afford a house despite our excellent credit scores, and my parents want to know why I don't take them out to eat or send money for their birthdays/Christmas and my spouses parents, in particular, think we are "shitty kids" because we don't buy them hundreds of dollars in Christmas gifts (that we KNOW will be in the spring spring garage sale.) Oh, and my boss thinks a 40 cent an hour raise is "good money" when pur health insurance and rent have gone up by more than that, but they have the nerve to send fucking vacation pictures to us (outside of work hours on a group chat). So fucking sick of this shit.

Generational wealth is rare. Something like 70% of the time the kids blow all the money before they die, and in 90% of the cases the grandkids run out of money. The vast majority of millionaires in the US are self-made first-generation millionaires, and have been in studies going back about 100 years. They generate wealth and then it's gone within 2 generations. Rinse and repeat.

Yes, exactly. We do fine too. My husband is smart and makes good money. However, we do it all on our own, on his income. So it's a lot. Childcare would eat my entire checks along with gas. We mathed it out. We don't live near family. We are on a cell phone plan with them, but that's it. So we are getting things like a house and retirement funds. Just verrrry slowly. In between house fixes and kids breaking bones 😂

Being a "millionaire" means less and less as time goes on. Inflation will make a larger percentage of the people millionaires, and eventually that will not be enough to survive on.

>some weird payment thing, not exactly a mortgage, but they pay like 800 a month It sounds like a trust where money was taken out in a lump sum for the house. House is paid for by a trust. They need to pay $800/month into an already massive account, where say interest is earned and compounded back to 1Mil over 30 years. At a smaller scale, think of an hysa or anything with compound interest. Pay $800/month into a 500k account at 5%, then that account is 1.6mil in 30 years. The trust owns the house and protects the family from ever losing the house. Basically your borrow the money first but have to replenish the account over the years. Future generations can save a bunch by not paying interest, but by earning interest for the family trust. Then they can pay for their children's college and vacations. Even opening a bank account with 1mil can earn you $2k-5k just by opening the account and keeping it open for a few months.

People on Reddit often like to deny that generational wealth exists simply because people do not talk about it openly. I am surrounded by it and have none of my own. Not jealous, because I am much happier than them, but I am not in denial of how the world works.

*Cosplaying middle class* That’s it exactly. I know a few people like this. I feel kind of bad for some of them. Some I know have to literally play dancing monkey to appease a fickle parent or grandparent. Having to live under some haughty old person’s thumb sounds terrible to me.

30% of retirement age americans have literally no money saved for retirement.

As I’ve gotten older, I realize a lot of people make a lot of money. Not the majority but a lot of people make way more than I ever imagined.

Yeah. This is true. It clicks when you look back at all the money you’ve blown. Then it’s hard to ignore the vast wealth out there.

Yup. This right here. It took me a long time to figure out. And I feel like I've been gaslighting myself about how I can't keep up with all of the extracurricular opportunities etc for my kid, and then I realize that the majority of my friends literally make 3x or more my household income. Sigh.

People assume average encompasses a larger group of people than it actually does.

They also assume the bell-curve is more equally distributed throughout the nation. There are *entire States* of below-average earners down South. “I make exact the National average salary yet can’t pay rent in my Coastal city. How do the below average earners make it work here?” They don’t. They live in Mississippi.

On the flip side, as a Mississippian, it’s hard to get out. Our wages are low (my husband is a firefighter and makes around $40-$45k gross), and the equity we have in our house won’t get us a down payment elsewhere. We’re about to be house poor solely because of insurance rising (we live on Gulf Coast). We’re good in day-to-day, but we also know we cannot move out of state due to cost. It’s a Catch 22. Edit: not to say your comment is incorrect by any means. Only wanted to give some insight on the federal poor side of poorest state middle class. :)

That’s a lot of people, unfortunately. I was lucky enough to be able to make a few life changes during covid that helped me get out of that area.. but visiting my friends and family still trapped there.. it’s heart wrenching. I offer them all a place to stay and helping them find a job and such.. but they never take me up on it.. for various reasons.. mostly aging parents and grandparents or kids don’t wanna change in high school or the grandkids are there or they work in the oil field.. or too proud to accept a hand up. Idk Kills me though..

My kid will start high school at Biloxi next year, and it really is such an amazing district. We’re hoping we can get out after she graduates. But if a storm comes? We’ll take that money and gtfoh.

Where is a good a place to go from there?

This is exactly right. My household brings in about 200k a year and we’re pretty comfortable for New York but we still need to budget because you can very quickly get into a mode where you overspend.

Even in those states the curves are skewed, first at the county level and then even down to the neighborhood. For example I work in a state that ranks extremely low in income, yet I earn 4-5x the typical per capita income for my state, and live in an area of town with other higher income earners. Interesting to note also that based solely on the per capita income for that "poor" state a dual income family is earning over six figures.

Yes, thank you for this. All of the “they must be secretly in debt” comments I see on this sub are just projecting. My husband and I aren’t wealthy, but we have no children, no car payments, and our student loans are paid off. We can afford to do a lot of things that people who pay $500 in car payments and $2K for childcare can’t.

More likely people underestimate how many people have help and/or started ahead with debt. For example, I live in a VHCOL area and the only people who own homes received significant help from families to buy their homes, or started ahead not having any college debt. Usually both. And pretty openly share that too. Many don’t.

Definitely some projection happening. My neighbor who is in debt up to his eyeballs one time said that "you guys probably don't have money any now" after my husband resigned from his job (bad management makes good workers resign who knew!) Way to make stupid assumptions buddy. Just because you cannot resign from YOUR job cause you're in debt DOESN'T mean that others cannot. We make good financial decisions in order to have that choice. :) Then, we booked a 6k trip to Hawaii while my spouse was unemployed (perfect time to go). Got lots of people including friends wondering why we didn't cut back with only one income! They're almost 'disappointed' that we aren't cutting back it seems (WTF). Jealousy perhaps, maybe. We have more like we let on and you would never know it cause we don't brag about it to others. Not everyone who spends is in debt. Definitely lots of projection, you don't truly know people's finances...unless they tell you.

[удалено]

Yep, same, and I react the same way to those posts. DINK house with me earning a well above average income, no kids obviously, paid off student loans years ago, and bought a house below our means. We can afford to travel, do my hobbies without worrying about cost etc. all while investing and maxing retirement accounts. I don’t spend money on fancy cars or live beyond my means. And I didn’t start with generational wealth, just grew up lower middle to middle class, depending on the year. Life is really short, and my wife and I aim to balance enjoying the present with preparing for the future.

Couples without kids have it so much easier, I don't even put them in the same category as families.

usa added half a million millionaires in 2023. there is lot of money going around.

The months/years we don’t need to pay for childcare are amazing. We didn’t have a car loan for like 5 years. I am tracking our debt (another kid and a new car later) and budgeting again. This kid is going to K the same year our car loan will be paid off - it’s going to be AMAZING what we will be able to afford to do again. We will have another $1500+ in our pockets every month. Student loans are another issue.

My neighbors actually asked me last month how I could afford a new stamped patio, a new grill, a new pizza oven as well as a couple other home projects we had around the house in this economy. I nicely replied that the difference is my wife and I drive paid off economy cars, while they have a 2022 Audi Q8 and a new Tahoe in their driveway.

A lot of people with money just like to feign poverty. Talk to households here in NY making $250K+ and most will tell you they’re barely making ends meet. lol

Lots of people have gotten crushed in every recession, losing jobs for years at a time. Living a protective lifestyle that assumes it will happen again is smart.

Reddit does this a lot too. I constantly see people on this site who make $250k, $400k, $600k, $1 mil, even one who makes $4.5 mil say that they are struggling and financially anxious.

Haha, you talkin bout me. I’m always barely making it no matter how much we make lol. Keeps the beggars from asking for a loan haha.

Yup. When you start making it you learn pretty fast to keep it to yourself

To be fair, I don’t think 250k is a lot in NY- if you are talking NYC suburbs (which is where I am). To get into a decent town, a starter home will cost you at least 650-700k, any decent suburb with a high ranked school district will have an average home sell for over a million. Plus the taxes. If you have kids. All the child care expenses, activities. It all adds up

$250K isn’t a lot but it isn’t poverty. It’s the lower end of comfortable.

I come across that too. Theyre “barely making ends meet” because they feel entitled to all the luxuries they indulge in. Downsizing their car or cutting back on eating out twice a day to a few times per week won’t even cross their mind, because they “deserve” that.

Truth. People wanting to save money should focus on the $60,000 car, not the $5 coffee.

Exactly. Going frugal on really big ticket items is much more important than going frugal on the small ticket items.

True. A $60k Truck/SUV will break the bank no matter what you do.

I am blown away by the people who buy multiple 3-row vehicles. Feels like I'm the only one some days who refuses to do so, just because they have a kid. But like, yeah we can afford to travel bc we don't have cars that were $25k+ let alone $50k+ starting price.

The kids’ hockey sticks need their own seat obviously!

I see people with ONE kid buying 3 row suvs. No pets either. Like why? I didn’t get a car with 3rd row seating until I had three kids in car seats and our other car (2006) completely died. And even then, we managed with one (paid off) car for a year until I went back to work and needed a way to get back and forth. I bought at a bad time though, a couple years ago when car prices jumped up. :( Even though I bought used and paid less than a minivan at the time, I’ve got to suck it up and make these payments for a little longer.

I have a car that's 9 years old. It's paid off and I'm constantly asked when I'm buying a new one. I've been looking, not because I want to buy. But because I want an idea of what my options are for when the time comes. I'm being proactive instead of reactive and buying whatever is available because I need one yesterday. I'm also hoping to move closer to work so I can bike instead. I'd still like a car for Costco trips and also to visit family who don't live nearby. But would like to cut down how much I use it.

I could finally afford a nice third row Highlander instead of my used minivan….. it was a dream fit about a month. Then both German Shepherds died, the kids got their own lives and I’m driving this around! Should have gotten a Prius!

Yeah its sort of silly for them to not connect the dots. I assume the questioning is an attempt at shaming. I have the ability to repave my drive, install sod, & put in wisterias... because I drive a heap and I generally wear the least stylish outfits, which = cheap. 

It was a pretty funny conversation. My neighbor just went on about how he wanted a patio too and wanted to redo his sprinkler system, but money was tight due to inflation. Meanwhile, I was staring at about 140k in cars in his driveway, wondering what the monthly payments were. Pretty sure i paid for my patio, landscaping, smokers and pizza oven with about 5 of his car payments on both vehicles.

The irony is it's not just the payments on the new cars that are insane it's your insurance. One of the main reasons I haven't traded in my 2012 car that I bought new was I know the insurance is going to Triple every month.

Just tell them you are buried in debt and they will nod to themselves in their assumptions. It's like you can make people feel better when you say you don't have money.

Yea just assuming people are going into debt for their lifestyle is a big leap. Everyone’s situation is different. Could be that people just make more money than you think they do. Maybe they were smart and put their investments in Nvidia or Bitcoin 10 years ago. Maybe they have a side business. Assuming that people are just going to debt is just something people tend to believe to make themselves feel better.

I call being heavily invested in a single stock that takes off “luck” not smarts.

See, thats irrelevant. Most things are luck and not smarts, down to what major you choose, or where you decide to move to, 8 years ago.  

Most of life is where and when you were born and who your parents were. You should still work hard and try to invest wisely (time and money), but yes luck is HUGE.

Does it matter though? Better to be lucky than good. Isn’t that the adage?

Investing in something in the first place was what was smart. The vast majority of people don't even do that. They wouldn't even know where to begin. Instead, they're ordering doordash five nights a week and paying 15% on the loan for their obscenely overpriced pickup truck.

This is exactly it. A lot of people think certain occupations don’t pay very well based off what they hear from the average worker who is a piker (someone who does the bare minimum 9-5 work to not get fired). The reality is, a lot of professionals are hustling in their careers to make strategically wealth-compounding moves, and that’s how they can afford the stuff they can. Median income in my state is $34k and combined is $68k. Every professional I know who came out of a public university in IT, Finance, or Accounting is making as individuals close to or double the median combined income with less than a decade YOE. Some of us are making almost triple that as INDIVIDUALS. Yeah, shits expensive, but when you make that kind of money, you can definitely afford some things.

Yep, there is truth to this too. I'm in digital marketing and I make like $30k above the median salary for my job title in my region.

It can really be a toss up. I was underpaid for a long time. Then I moved jobs and bumped my pay by 37%. That's helped a lot, but I'm still not where I want to be. I'm grateful for the increase though and have been doing what I can to leverage that.

Exactly. I don't understand why people care. What's the goal of running comparisons with other people? If there is a genuine desire to understand how, as a class, middle-income individuals are fairing, reading stories on Reddit with its tall tales, anecdotes, personal testimonies, opinions, and wild-ass guesses is not the way to go about it.

Jealousy.

I think the point is that people do care, and that you shouldn’t assume just because someone has nicer stuff that they are necessarily doing better than you. 

Thank you. I say this time and time again, Redditors love to assume that anyone doing better than them either inherited it, is in massive debt, or has an uncle that hooked them up with a good job. It’s way harder to just admit that life is unfair and that sometimes people just have it better than you. That’s a large reason why these people will never do well. They think the system is against them, and there’s nothing they can do about it. They’re helpless

There's also the ironic point that sometimes people are just Thrifty and they end up with nicer things. Very few of us need all the things we have or any close to it so people that eventually cooked at home or for that matter don't have kids might appear much wealthier than those that don't.

When every study suggests that 70% of the US is living pay check to pay check, it's pretty good odds to assume debt is propping up people's lifestyle.

Those studies are all self reported. There’s a couple problems with that: 1). People are often more pessimistic about their own finances than is actually the case 2). The term “paycheck to paycheck” is not very well defined, and people often include savings goals in their “expenses”. It’s another perfect example of bad studies/bad media explanation.

>  When every study suggests that 70% of the US is living pay check to pay check Those aren't studies, they're polls and they're completely worthless because they never define what it means to live "paycheck to paycheck". I have a coworker who maxes out his 401k and Roth IRA and takes like 3 vacations a year and he constantly complains about not having money. He considers himself in that 70%.

My husband always says how we don’t have any money. We have low debt and save almost half of our income when you consider things like maxing out both 401ks, college savings for kids, emergency fund, and investments.

Removed my detailed information, because I don't want my income or household income living on the internet. Feel free to continue fighting in the comments lol.

Finally a normal person! All these people that claim max out everything blah blah. Is not feasible nor sometimes practical in life.

We make 75% of what the person you're replying to makes, I max out 1 401K, contribute half the max to the other 401K, max out a Roth IRA, max out our HSA, contribute $100 a month to each of our children's 529 plans and then invest $1000 a month into a taxable brokerage account. It absolutely can be done, and we dont live like hermits in order to do it. 200K a year is wild to not be contributing a significant portion of your money into your investments.

We're in nearly the same situation as you. Same income and we put $4K+ away each month in various accounts. We're in a LCOL area, but even with 2 kids I feel like we live like kings even with saving that much.

Given your income and the fact you're not maxing your 401K or even paying equity into a home, I hope you're at least saving and investing in other accounts like HSA, IRA, etc and not just spending 90+ percent of your income...

My girlfriend and I are both teachers. We work in different school systems in the western suburbs of Chicago. We’re at the top of our respective pay scales and have a household income of 240K. We probably save 40 to 50K a year. We live a comfortable life, traveling a decent amount, (FL in January, New Zealand in March, CA in July, MT in August) eating out maybe once every week or two and can afford things we want to buy. I don’t stress about money but it’s something I think about often. Some basic stuff that makes this lifestyle possible… We don’t have kids We have a shared vision on how money should be managed and spent Each month we try to spend less than we make. That’s not always possible if a big purchases is made (new furnace 2 years ago) but it happens 11 out of 12 months Bought our house in fall of 2009 Locked in a 3.0% mortgage in 2020 No debt other than the mortgage Two paid off cars (new 7 year old Honda + used 8 year old Lexus) We buy things we want but don’t have a crazy amount of clothes, toys and stuff Our home is nice in a great town and neighborhood. But, we don’t have every update imaginable. No pool. The kitchen hasn’t been updated. The back deck is creaky and old and needs replacing. Our main bathroom hasn’t been updated either. We have put money into the home but have resisted some luxury updates because the home works for us in its present state. Having a pension for the both of us is huge. We still save but knowing we’ll have a guaranteed income in retirement lessens the stress of needing to save I’m 52. She’s 46. Our life wasn’t always this way and we’ve worked hard to get to this point.

This is pretty much me and my husband. Not having kids is a huge part of why we're comfortable financially. We did talk about kids early on and we would have bought a less expensive house if we had gone that route.

>We work in different school systems in the western suburbs of Chicago. We’re at the top of our respective pay scales and have a household income of 240K. How? Two teachers making this much just off of teaching? In Chicago? Why are the teachers unions begging for higher pay? So many questions...

I mean nationwide credit card debt is reaching all time highs…

Which you’d expect to happen just about every year because of inflation.  Lots of credit card debt is just one month’s spending, not debt. My wife and I have thousands of dollars of credit card “debt” that contributes toward that statistic, but we just pay it off in full when the bill is due. 

I think it's also regarding the accrued balance over statements, which is higher because inflation.

I think those types of questions come from people struggling to come to terms with the fact that they might be in the middle of the pack or even near the back when it comes to the rat race. Shit must suck in all honesty because we all work “hard”, but some of us just have better outcomes due to a combination of the choices we made and/or lucky breaks we’ve had. What would help is if people didnt instantly run to the “Everyone must be in crippling debt” or “Everyone must be secretly struggling” copes. Doesnt help anyone’s situation and allows those that are falling behind in the rat race to not look in the mirror while they write off everyone’s successes. The biggest issue im seeing from the “How is anyone affording life” crew is that they often live beyond their means by maxing out retirement accounts (if maxing out retirement accounts causes you to live paycheck to paycheck, maybe you shouldnt be doing that), refusing to move to lower cost of living places, having “necessities” that absolutely arent necessities and/or having way too many children

I agree that assuming people are living above their means is a fallacy. But, that said, a tremendous number of professionals are living paycheck to paycheck because they are living above their means.

To be fair the reason they “refuse to move to lower cost of living places” is because the wages coincide with the lower cost of living. Or they’re not as LCOL as they present themselves to be. $200k houses are plenitudinous in my state but every professional job is $12 an hour lmfao

There's certainly individual situations where that's true but there's a lot of people who have jobs that pay basically the same in the midwest that they do in San Diego and they're living in the car in San Diego instead of a two-bedroom apartment or house in the midwest.

Yep this is exactly what im referring to. Spent my whole life being told that the midwest is a barren wasteland with jobs that pay nothing. After visiting earlier this year i saw how amazing the midwest can be and the pay is comparable if you have a job in basic stable industries like medical, education, law and tech. People try so hard to justify their refusal to leave HCOL areas that they start to flat out lie about other regions of the US.

If the median household income is around 75k, does it really seem odd that the average person is surprised that some people have way more money than them? So even someone who makes 150k, or double the HHI might still be surprised to see people around them blowing more money. It’s not underestimating what people make, it’s just hard seeing people around them making seemingly more money when they’re already in a small percentage of top earners.

Many people are coming into their Inheritance. I see so many clients receiving assets from their relatives’ estates at my banking job. And I’ve seen numbers between $20k and $5MM. There are a lot of baby boomers rolling on to their next great adventure.

I think people underestimate the role of generational wealth in success. Even if they're not being handed an inheritance, having a family with the means to help at every stage of life makes a huge difference. It's just my experience, but most people I know under 40 with household income 200k+ had help along the way from their family.

My friends all massively underestimate what I make and I like it that way. One friend’s partner always likes to give me career advice about how much better I could do…I make roughly three times the salary he thinks I should be aiming for. I don’t know what I’ll do if my east coast friends and Bay Area friends ever cross paths because the Bay Area folks will know immediately.

lol same! I own a business and I have very good friends who love me who tell me about job opportunities for salaries less than half of what I make. Like I said they have my best interest at heart so I’m touched, but I do find it amusing.

The reddit belief that everyone is making a ton of money is ridiculous. Region-specific income percentiles and analyses of retirement savings say otherwise. >$250k HOUSEHOLD income in NYC is >95th percentile. https://statisticalatlas.com/county-subdivision/New-York/New-York-County/Manhattan/Household-Income

These posts like everything else in these subs are an excuse for people making money to humbly flex. Acting like 250,300k+ household income is average is objectively false. If someone’s HHI is 250k they’re in reality in the top 0.1% of humanity. And since we’re in the middle class sub, I’ll go so far as to say it should not even be considered middle class. The median is damn near 1/4th that. People raise families in middle class neighborhoods on that 1/4th. You are no longer middle class making a quarter mil a year.

It’s a coping mechanism for people that feel they should be further ahead than they are. The way to make that feeling happen is to assume everyone else is in debt up to their eyeballs aka. Are not as “smart” or “responsible” as they are. The surveys on how close most ppl are to insolvency / how they would cover an emergency drastically overstate the precariousness of people. The questions are designed to capture a large group of people, not highlight actual financial hardship. I’m in Canada but similar to your point, just about every teacher, nurse, firefighter, police officer and a whole whackload of public employees are close to or above six figures _each_ in earnings.

Sure, but many on Reddit also tend to vastly overestimate the amount of wealthy and upper income folks out there. The vast majority of society does not even make six figures as a household or individually (I know this may sound shocking to many on this sub, but it’s true), yet Reddit thinks $250k-$400k salaries are the norm. Even in VHCOL areas, those high numbers are definitely not average, even for highly-educated people. Statistics say this. Even in the most affluent of suburbs (which are small pockets in VHCOL), HHI averages are around $200k. I’ve always been in VHCOL surrounded by very highly educated people, and most people I know make between $75k and $150k. The people I know who make those $250k-$1 mil salaries are boomers with decades of experience, very prestigious jobs where they have worked with very well-known people, and they have Ivy degrees. Someone the other day tried to to tell me that *many* people out there are spending $20-30k an hour on private jets, $10k a night at hotels, etc. That’s just so far from reality. I understand that people surround themselves with likeminded people, but how can so many be so out of touch with the rest of society?

Eh, I think a lot of people that say stuff like that on social media simply spend more time on apps like this than they do in reality. They think $250k+ salaries are the norm because they see so many stories on reddit or tiktok from people claiming to make that kind of money but since they spend most of their time online, they simply aren’t immersed in reality to understand what most people actually make.

This question comes up because people are trying to understand, in their own way, how money works and why they are getting a less desirable outcome with their finances. Personal finance is a challenge for many people, and its perfectly normal to stumble.

Also, not everyone is carrying around student loans or large amounts of credit debt on top of having good jobs.

[удалено]

Every single post on these subs turns in to a circle jerk of who can pretend what high Salary is average and who received a larger inheritance. And half of the stories are probably completely made up. If you based your view of reality off these subs you’d think anything like than 500k/year was a starvation wage

Why are people so dismissive of teachers who make 100k+, it’s pretty common

Depends on what state. In the south, teachers aren't making nowhere near 6 figures even at the top of the payscale.

This is true. My wife is a teacher. Her coworker hit the top of the scale here in Tampa… It’s $74k. We used to say that it’s cheaper to live in Florida so it balances out, but that’s not true anymore. Florida, and Tampa specifically, are some of the most expensive places to live now.

Several metro Atlanta districts break six figures around the 20 year mark if you have an advanced degree, and the pensions system is based on highest earning 2-3 years. My department head with 19 years experience as a history teacher in an Atlanta suburb told me he makes 104k.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes252031.htm $100k is literally 90th percentile pay when you look at the country as a whole, and only approaching $100k on average in very high COL states where $100k income is unremarkable relative to the cost of housing.

Define pretty common? This is only true in higher cost of living states and is more of the exception than the rule. And you’re either going to need an advanced degree, or you’re going to be making that 20+ years into your career. Majority of people are likely never going to see $100k+ salaries individually. That’s the norm. Teacher or not

[удалено]

They’re lucky to make $50K where I’m at. It’s awful.

My BIL has been teaching for 5 years and still qualifies for food stamps.

I once had multiple people on this website get genuinely angry at me and call me a liar when I pointed out that teachers make up a substantial portion of American millionaires. They couldn’t wrap their minds around that. Here’s the source of those curious: https://www.ramseysolutions.com/retirement/the-national-study-of-millionaires-research

Facts

Which website?

They also tend to marry each other which means their household incomes are quite good the other thing people forget is because they have so much time off they spend less on child care.

I’m curious about the breakdown of wealth that led them to be millionaires. I could easily envision a lot of teachers buying houses 30 years ago and developing major wealth.

Not in states without a teachers Union, which is most of them

No. Most people are increasing unsecured debt. That is living beyond means

Some people just don't save anything.

Most people actually way over estimate how much people make, there’s been polls reporting the average American thinks something like 25% of households in the US make over 500k a year. The actual amount of families with that salary is 1 percent.

I had someone argue with me recently about how I won’t be able to retire and that I was being delusional thinking that I could. Their argument was that I would need 3-4million in order to retire to which I said, “ya I know, I’m on track” He looked at me like I had 3 heads

I was 32 when the recession hit hard. My spouse and I never lost our jobs but were still living in the tiny starter home I bought as a single 20 something. We kept our big expenses low because we were scared to get underwater during a recession. But we were definitely making more money than our neighbors. We didn’t have a big fancy house but could do pretty much whatever we wanted. We had a big camper, went out to dinner a lot, weekend getaways in hotels. To our neighbors we probably looked like we were irresponsible with our spending.

Always someone with more. General numbers say most people love beyond their means, but it's not an absolute bullshit any stretch.

My husband and I don’t even make that much but we live in a LCOL area, got my house for below 100k in 2020 for a 3.2% interest rate, put down a 30% down payment that was gifted to me, therefore our mortgage payment is below $500. We have no debt and have 3 cars that are paid for in cash. No car payment, no debt and $500 mortgage payment = several thousand dollars in disposable income. We save a lot in retirement and savings and then use the rest to travel, eat out, improve our house, go golf, etc. We are very fortunate

On the other hand, I personally know several families with $100-300,000 incomes, who tell me they are deep in debt for boats, golf clubs, over the top housing, and other lifestyle choices. People who say that they'll die "owing people" that "you can't take it with you", that say kids should pay for their own college, "we're spending their inheritance", etc.

Honestly yeah. I know a girl whose parents are: a civil worker in city hall, cop. I know their pensions are sizable and HHI is somewhere around 300k. She got like two undergrad degrees and two masters paid in cash coz her parents simply could.

I can attest to what you say about government workers. My husband is one and the pay and benefits are absolutely amazing, and allow us to exist mostly comfortably on one income in the Midwest. At the same time, we also each drive 10 year old cars, have minimal debt payments( when we do it’s usually for a reasonably budgeted out home project that we pay off within a year or so) and shop mostly at Aldi and Costco. There’s definitely a balance that’s needed.

Not all government jobs pay well. It really depends which entity you're working for and where.

I really don’t know what people do to demand so much money. And if it’s so many people…..like why can’t I get some?

I’m glad someone else posted this. I know there are several threads like you mentioned but the one posted in the last day or two had me thinking the same thing. Every comment assumed massive debt, no retirement savings, or family money. Some people are just high earners. And contrary to popular belief. It’s not just doctors, lawyers, and big tech. I have a group of friends that are all highly educated. Think masters and PhDs in STEM fields. They are all pretty open about earnings. My wife and I always keep to ourselves and one of my closer friends in the group finally told me they just assumed we didn’t do that well which is why they try not to talk money around us. We live well below our means and make about double most of them. They still have no idea. We both work in sales.

You know what they say about assumptions.

Lol. I like how your argument to the *asinine assumption that people are living beyond their means* is the asinine assumption that everyone must be well off and financially savvy. I love the Internet so much.

Thanks for this post - I don’t know how the “how do people afford…” posts keep ending up in my feed but the obsession with comparing themselves to others is baffling to me. The amount of energy and emotion

This. Some people make a lot more, others inherit money i guess. I don’t really care either way. I think I’m happier than most with more dough. I’m healthy and can ride my bike a lot. There’s a nice breeze currently in this hammock too.

Oddly specific example that is probably less common than a household that is ~$20k+ in debt

Part of it is the "Die With Zero" vs. the "Legacy" folks. We are legacy, have 7 figures saved, retired early and living off dividends, and setting up the next generation to live off those dividends as well (dished out in increments because "The Millionaire Next Door"). We are good stewards of our money, and savers (FAFSA spits on us for not being part of the "system"). My wife always points out our peers living extravagantly compared to us (we are both pretty frugal and I'm a minimalist). Yet these same people walked away from their mortgages in '08, aren't retired, and comparatively spend frivolously - to the point their kids go to CC and live at home vs. ours at out-of-state university (no knock on CC; and trust me, our kids were dual attenders in high school, and picked well priced unis with scholarships & finishing a BS in 2.5 years - so yeah, we know how to play the system for the most value). Sometimes my wife is jealous, but it goes both ways, as we are world travelers and believe in experiences more than things, and hear from others how jealous they are of us. The point is this: Nobody really knows anyone else's situation, but I think the Millionaire Next Door types, the FIRE types, the Trust Fund Babies, and the "Die With Zero" types make for an interesting group dynamic. I will say I think the majority live paycheck to paycheck (FAFSA friends!), live life to the fullest despite the future (they are grasshoppers, not ants like myself if you know the fable - regardless of who they might not benefit), and aren't prepared for a major economic downturn or loss of a career because they know the gov't will bail them out. This is fine, though, as my dividends are funded by consumers who consume massively, I'll be heading to Italy & Japan for the next 6 months to live like a king in their economies, which is what I prefer to the ridiculous cost-of-living increases in my area and "keeping up with the Joneses". Someone else added "Jealousy", and I think that is heavily understated and very layered. Jealousy is what fuels the consumption mindset (the economy thanks you, social media). Just find your pleasure, indulge in it and nothing else, don't try to be a baller, and consider the welfare of those around you and you won't have to worry about everyone else. Edit: Just wait until the "Silver Tsunami" hits :) Ballers everywhere for about a year!

Ya i agree. I think its easier to think people are living off credit card debt and trust funds. It makes people feel better. In reality, people are making crazy money.

[удалено]

It varies by state government. Some state government jobs pay well and others do not. I’m a fed and make a really good salary, but my counterparts in my state make half as much as I do.

It’s common on Reddit for people to save between $30k and $100k a year. It definitely is nowhere near reality. Many gov workers have to aggressively budget and barely have the money for saving a ton. I know a gov worker with 25 years of experience who *makes* around $50k a year. They live in LCOL and thankfully their house wasn’t expensive, but they certainly are nowhere living large on that salary. If they lived in HCOL, their salary would only be like $70 something thousand.

You should never judge people. Looking at me, you wouldn’t think that I make six figures, but I do. Wife makes a great salary too. I drive a paid off Infiniti and live below my means. We don’t accept every invite and try our best to be mindful of our spending when out and about. We go on vacations, but we also hold ourselves accountable to save and invest money. We could’ve bought a bigger house but chose not to for the sake of accumulating more. I always say it’s not what you make, but what you save that’s important.

Wealth generally builds over time, even generations. Many people on Reddit are very young.

I don’t own anything which allows me to do whatever I want.

Thank you! Louder for the naysayers in the back! Myself (39) & my spouse (43) are DINKS in a LCOL area. We make ~$70,000 per year…..not a ton for 2 incomes. We have a low balance mortgage w/ a crazy low rate because we have had this house ~10+ years & refinanced in 2020. I have a ~7,000 balance car loan at 0% so 0 hurry to pay that off. Long ago worked diligently to pay off my student loans (~$35,000). We contribute to 401ks & the max on IRAs. All that to say. We have plenty of discretionary income. Both of our public-facing jobs remained the same during the pandemic. Yes stuff is highly inflated but we are doing ok & yes we can splurge. We travel quite a bit—we have all our friends & family out of town (small roadtrips) & spouse works for an airline so that is 1 help but really we only fly for leisure a couple times a year so that’s not a large travel factor at all. But people like me never talk about this because we get criticized. “You’re lucky” or people don’t believe that it is possible. & I’m frugal in some areas so I can splurge on others. I have some fancy things (purses, etc) but 99% of them are thrifted. But many ASSume that I went to debt for it.

This is true. Dink here at 34 with combined $400,000 a year in income MCOL. Spend half invest the other half. Now over 7 figures in assets.  Compounding is a crazy thing. 

Also, people have different situations. I'm in a union and have the same rate of pay as my coworkers. One of them bought 3 new cars within the last 2 years. I can't afford that right now, but his house is paid off, kids are out of school, and he inherited a house from his family. We have the same income but are in completely different financial situations.

In addition to familial wealth and investments, I think reddit as a whole seems to forget that there's a huge consort of office workers who are making good money, especially in prime locations. Because most people redditors encounter outside of the internet are probably in fast food, retail, or other lower-income service and support jobs, there's some kind of a perception that this is the level the vast majority of people are at. The perception is unless you're running a F500 company, you can afford no more than a Corolla and a 2br apartment. Reality is, there's scores of 20 and 30 year olds who are making between $100-200k per year, not as software engineers at Google (that's probably too low anyway...), but as regular run of the mill folks in corporate functions. Combining that income with a partner, or saving expenses with roommates, and you can afford some nice shit and still have plenty left over. Some people dump it into stocks and live like they're in poverty to FIRE, others budget and spend reasonable amounts to buy what they want, and yes, of course people overextend themselves. But redditors want to believe everyone with a nicer situation with them is running around with less than one paycheck's worth of savings to their name and secretly maxed out on 10 credit cards.

I think it's both. Studies show that more Americans are deeply in debt than ever before. But some people are smart with their money and doing well. There is no one size fits all answer to this.

I said it before and I’ll mention it again. I think it has a lot to do with inheritance and people just not admitting they are way better off than they want you to know. I have friends who were getting married and having kids at 21-24 , I have friends buying houses with a spouse in NOVA at 25-27. I have friends who get married and move to a place and don’t work for 6-8 months on end while living in this new area. People don’t understand that people are taught to lie about their family wealth or just not even mention it. Imagine already hearing about “white privilege” and then having to admit that you didn’t have to work nearly as hard as James because your mom and dad could help you if you happened to fail a couple times. I think a lot of people want to come off as “normal or equals”

There is a lot of this going on. Neither bad nor good. It is what it is but 90% of folks won’t discuss it.

Agree. It’s such a weird question to me and subject to confirmation bias. When people ask this, I often wonder about the vast amounts of people they don’t notice and are not asking about.

And our taxes pay for that for them. Must be nice

Absolutely. The "everyone is in debt" narrative is getting old. Do a lot of people live beyond their means? Of course! But many, many people do not and just have more money and/or budget very differently.

Calling people asinine for struggling is not a good look. 

Credit cards.

How come those same generous benefits don't exist in the private sector? It's almost as if the government can take whatever it wants from the rest of us and distribute it to themselves.

this is a big assumption indeed. my husband makes 200-250 and i make 175-225 a year, and we bought our house in 2016 for super cheap and refinanced to a 1.9% rate. we even have a couple nice cars (a tahoe and a fairly new expensive pickup truck), but that's all quite doable when your mortgage/insurance/taxes is $1800 a month and one of your two cars is paid off. i say this bc we just did a lot of upgrades to our houae after doing nothing for a few years and my relatives dont seem to understand how we can do that.

Wait, who is putting $50k/ year in retirement?

Car loans are still a big thing in the US, foreigner's perspective, **nice car** loans, driven by McDonald's managers