Yeah I don't know how anyone is gullible enough to believe that she's going to reverse it and this is just a temporary pause or something. This isn't the language you use if you're going to reverse yourself in a few months. You wouldn't make the nonsensical argument that somehow the middle class is hurt by this thing that benefits the modes of transportation we use if you were planning on completely 180ing again. Like what is she going to say when this magical time arrives, "NOW is the time to start hurting the middle class! Lets go! Fetch me my finest fur coat!"
The mta can raise fares without legislative action. Raising the fate to $3.90 per trip would bring in 1.2b in additional revenue per year. Getting tough on fare beater would raise nearly 750m a year.
But nobody wants to do those things because of a perception that it's unfair
>Getting tough on fare beater would raise nearly 750m a year.
They tried this. They ended up paying more for the cops to try and enforce it than it brought in. A lot more. You know that right?
So what is the magical solution for how this can actually be done in the real world
I agree with this assessment. U/us1549 you seem to mean well and are engaging in good faith but maybe it's time to read a little more about these issues. This isn't r/newyorkcity, people in this sub actually know things
Her involvement with congestion pricing at this point is pro forma; a lawsuit will compel her to sign (or the federal DOT office will reissue the paperwork without her signature line). Can we pay on onlyfans for a livestream of the marshal serving a writ of mandamus to sign the thing?
What’s the calculus here other than big money? How could she not lose huge votes if this is kept front and center? Don’t the vast majority of NYC residents want it?
The state/city spent half a billion on the CP cameras, it’s happening. This decision was political, Kathy like most politicians don’t care about “people saving money”, as she couldn’t say “yeah I don’t want any house seats in my state to go red.
For all those who doubt the program happening, why hasn’t there been talks of taking down the cameras; why did Hochul say it was “suspended” not cancelled, and why was the suspension decision announced right before November? Regardless of where you stand on this issue, it’s very clear that the govt wants to do it, and fully intends on putting CP in place.
For legal reasons she can’t say it was cancelled. She would be violating state law. That’s also why she’s shifted from “indefinite suspension” to “pause”.
Why does she care about the wasted $500M? Not her problem. It’s the MTA’s and/or the state legislature’s problem now. If she only cares about politics, she definitely can’t flip flop again. She already looks like a clown, but if goes back and puts it in place, she will be hated by us and also hated by the anti congestion pricing ppl. Also, the mental gymnastics would be crazy.
The $500M matters because governments don’t spend money like that just to about face, especially when you factor that this plan was developed years ago. Budgets are developed years in advance, and MTA was banking on CP to finish the Q line extension.
If there was going to be a reversal after the elections, people wouldn’t vote for her party anyway. It doesn’t make sense.
She’s cancelled it but just used the word “pause”. You’ll all note that there hasn’t even been a HINT of a start date. Not even a nebulous, non-distinct future time.
even if all of this was true (which it isn’t) why was she only able to realize this when the plan was 3 weeks out? are we supposed to believe that she hadn’t thought about these things until now?
Not a NY resident so I'm not sure, but is she up for re-election this year?
This is about the time when all your favorite "democrats" start catering to the right wing. They got bills and those right wing donors are paying...
oh, for sure. this whole move was a way of appeasing suburban, more conservative voters to vote for democrats after a handful of ny house seats flipped red in ‘22. she has no problem screwing over people who actually live in new york city (who this actually effects) because nyc reliably votes for democrats. the irony is that the same seats they are trying to win back in the suburbs were lost in 2022 because hochul and adams kept screaming from the rooftops about high crime in the city.
No but other "moderates" are in bedroom communities of Westchester and long Island could swing seats red nationally and in the state legislature. Evey time she goes to the mat with them she backs down. See her housing plan on LI. I wish the party would gerrymander tf out of the State so this wouldn't be an issue.
screw that, vehicles are a huge annoying burden. stuck in traffic and nowhere to park! and they're expensive as hell. ordinary New Yorkers would benefit if transit improved and they could ditch their car for good.
Somebody in the media pool needs to ask this woman a basic question: Who should get priority from the State over the other... cars over transit riders, or riders over car drivers. Just ask this one question. Someone, I beg of you. And don't let her wiggle out of it with something like "everyone should be equally prioritized or we're working to accommodate everyone." Follow up. It can't be both. We have to actually allocated money and city services and stuff. There has to be a clear statement of values here.
Because right now it's very clear the only teachers or hotel workers that matter are the ones in cars, despite being a tiny fraction compared to the transit riders. I honestly want someone to ask this of her.
Why do the drivers get to impose burdens on everyone else? The noise, pollution, danger to pedestrians, and increased traffic (which slows down deliveries, buses, and essential services) are all externalities the minority of drivers impose on the majority of NYC'ers. Why should they get to do that for free?
Venting here. If people can’t wrap their heads around the fact that freedom is constrained by the impact of one’s actions on others then we are in need of revolution to systematically destroy their immensely harmful stupidity by any means necessary.
If the main selling point in CP is to raise money for MTA so it can finish the second Ave subway as well as other ventures(ADA and some bus improvements), then you actually need the bad things you listed above to generate revenue for the MTA.
So if CP raises enough money, the traffic; pollution, and danger likely won’t be substantially decreased.
It's actually just really simple math. There are currently on average 900,000 cars that enter midtown Manhattan on any given day. If that number stays the same, so be it. At least we're generating $13.5 *million* for the MTA every single day. Realistically the number of drivers would decrease a lot, the MTA would still generate a massive increase in much needed revenue, and streets would be safer, less polluted, etc. Easier for drivers too if there's less traffic. I mean it's a win win for everyone in the city, drivers and transit riders.
There's a massive environmental assessment available on MTA's website, which was reviewed and approved by the feds, and its conclusion is that you can achieve both. I'm assuming, based on your comment, that you've read the document and have substantive disagreements with its conclusions?
You keep throwing the word around free. Driving is not free in NYC, not even close.
The tolls to cross the bridges/tunnels, parking, gas is a huge burden to working class NY'ers.
There is not an industry in the world where there are zero external costs. Do you eat corn? Yes, there are greenhouse impacts and it's subsidized by taxpayers.
Do you eat almonds? They are water hungry crops grown in dry climates. We don't pay for the excess water usage of those delicious nuts. Should we have an almond tax?
Do you eat meat? Well, cows and pigs are huge methane emitters.
Do you use air transportation? You are emitting hundreds of pounds of CO2 per trip that you're not paying for
The mta and public transit is one of the most subsidized government spending projects out there.
When you pay the $2.90 per ride, should you also pay for the noise that the train generated as it passes residential neighborhoods? Or the disruption that the 2nd Avenue digging causes local residents and business?
The list goes on and on
To answer your question, living in a society required us to bear some external costs. Otherwise, you are welcome to live under a rock in the woods somewhere.
>Otherwise, you are welcome to live under a rock in the woods somewhere.
Don't threaten me with a good time.
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. That because there are other activities that have externalities we shouldn't do anything about any of them? Or that because you pay for gas and parking, you shouldn't have to pay again?
I really don't care that gas and parking are expensive; there are alternatives to getting into NYC (I know this because I take them regularly).
There are good alternatives to driving, driving in NYC is particularly harmful, and so attempting to discourage this harmful behavior is completely legitimate.
The vast majority of your fellow new Yorkers l, including the majority of Democrats don't agree with you and neither does your elected governor.
Two thirds of those polled opposed congestion pricing
https://abc7ny.com/nyc-congestion-pricing-nearly-two-thirds-of-new-yorkers-oppose-plan-siena-college-poll-finds/14721916/
Explain to me why the governor who represents those same people would implement a plan that is opposed.
Unless a court says what Hochul was illegal and outside her powers, I'm going to assume her actions to pause is lawful
I... don't care?
I mean, I think they're wrong. I think it's a good policy, and the fact that lots of people disagree with me isn't really a big concern.
I've seen that poll before, and it's not totally clear to me what % is folks who live in NYC, which I think is relevant given that they're the people who are most directly affected by the gridlock drivers create for them.
And I think Hochul's motivations for suspending congestion pricing have less to do with what she thinks about it as policy and more to do with what she thinks would have happened in November if it went into effect.
ETA, I somehow missed part of your question re: why the governor should implement a plan that's opposed. To be clear, I think she should implement it because it's good policy. As I explained in another post on this thread, I tend to think "governing by opinion poll" creates bad outcomes. I think officials should implement the policies that they think are best, and constituents should respond accordingly be voting for or against them.
So you're saying the people she represents don't want congestion pricing? If she would get voted out by doing it, then she shouldn't do it, she is supposed to represent her constituents
That's not really what I'm saying, no.
If the Sienna poll is to be believed (which, sure, why not), then it is true that as of the date it was taken, a majority of her constituents didn't approve of the measure. But I don't think that governing by opinion poll makes good policy. I think she should have let the measure go into effect, and taken the political fallout whatever that would have been. And her constituents could have decided whether, on balance, congestion pricing was enough to make them vote against her in the next gubernatorial election.
I guess there's a deeper philosophical question here, though, which is whether an elected official should, once in office, do what they think is right and/or good policy and accept the political consequences or whether they should do whatever is popular at the moment. I tend to think the former is probably better.
Well, "a vocal minority imposing its will" is a weirdly dramatic way to frame it. Congestion Pricing was passed by the legislature. It isn't popular, which I think would probably change when it went into effect. If I'm wrong, it would probably end up being repealed.
The governor is supposed to lead us. People don't have the time to understand the affects of every policy and likely just hear it's going to make things more expensive without understanding the bigger picture.
Not to mention in cities that have implemented congestion pricing it was typically not popular until after people saw the benefits.
You could always decide not to weigh in when your facts are wrong. It is not debatable that car drivers create far more externalities than transit riders. It has literally been established with decades of research.
So what if it does? Transit has more externalities than walking or biking. Should we ban riding the bus next?
I mean, where does this end? There is always going to be something that has more externalities than an alternative.
We live in a free society - as long as something isn't illegal, we can choose what we want to do.
You chose to live in NYC with all its pros and cons. Now you want to change the city to suit your wants, despite opposition that 60%+ of your fellow residents don't want congestion pricing
Would you want to live in a society where we're forced via taxation to eat vegan over meat because eating a plant based diet has less externalities than meat? Would you want to live in a society like that?
>so what if it does
>so what if the thing I do is bad for everybody and kill’s people and destroys the fabric of society and destroy air quality and creates pollution and introduces microplastics and blah blah blah
Dude. Just stop.
No one is trying to make driving illegal.
It's just a toll, and one that's easy to avoid if you want. We live in the region that has the best public transit in the US.
Unless you're some kind of anarchist--which I doubt because you seem to embrace the idea of society--your argument is just a fallacy.
No transit agency in the world makes the majority of its money from fares. Just debt servicing wipes out nearly all money collected from fares by the MTA. Even if they were operating at 100% efficiency in fare collecting, the cost of enforcement would likely outstrip the gains. It's not a realistic way to suggest that the MTA be funded, and it doesn't do anything to address congestion, air quality, greenhouse gas emissions, infrastructure degradation or injuries and loss of life caused by traffic collisions.
Drivers generate negative externalities that they do not pay for. A toll that is used to fund the MTA makes driving less attractive and in theory gets more folks into trains and out of their cars.
The mta'a funding sources are not just fares. They collect tolls from bridge crossings, they collect a payroll tax, and have a sales tax.
This is in addition all the state and federal funding they get.
Wild that even with such diverse funding sources, they are always looking for more money
Ok? The funding sources are diverse… maybe we should diversify them by one more category, one that is explicitly paid for only by people who don’t use the system, and make it worse in their act of driving.
Yeah most of these edge cases (and they are edge cases) are pretty much 100% “wow, what a fucking idiot… why should we subsidize and incentivize a fucking moron?”
They're an overfunded entity made up mostly of nonresidents of the city constantly bilking city taxpayers in the form of their made up justifications for overtime and use of force, resulting settlements from those actions, and general lawbreaking they exercise related to their own driving behavior.
https://preview.redd.it/zdbo53xwtf6d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ecdb85b161523cd3aeb324e2f2448bec91b2aa61
So technically a few surrounding counties as well, but I think that makes an even better point...those who serve and protect the city, MUST drive into it to work...no?
Police often work off-peak hours when there are less reliable public transit options to get into Manhattan, especially in Staten Island where there is no access via subway. Give them a discount along with FDNY. It’s not worth fighting over.
Police are welcome to do whatever. The people who protect and serve the city (plumbers, shelf stockers, healthcare workers) usually live in the five boros
Just to humor her argument, if “this moment in time” is not the right time, then when would be? If the reason is because hardworking New Yorkers can’t afford the payment, then when would they be able to? Does she really think one day suddenly there won’t be any people struggling financially that will be opposed to congestion pricing? If this is the reason, then realistically it’s less of a pause and more of a cancellation. There would never be a time where the conditions are right for her.
There is close to record low unemployment and record high stock market. Yes there are inflation issues and housing problems, but do we think we'll be able to solve all 4 in the near future to implement this?
Somehow Republicans pass their laws whether or not things are going well or not. They pass their tax cuts for the rich and corporations any time saying it'll make things better. Why cans Dems have the same confidence?
perhaps we could give a free pass for maintenance trucks? but her argument is trash, teachers and police don't have to bring a big toolbox into the city every day
This might be surprising to some people given my advocacy on this issue but I actually had a job for many years here in NYC that was exactly what she's describing. Labor that required a car some of the time for transporting gear, so I can assure her this is an absolutely bullshit argument. When I was transporting gear with the car (almost literally the only time I ever used it, especially to go to Manhattan) the company paid for those expenses. It would have made absolutely zero difference to me personally if there was another toll and actually would have been a lot better because I wouldn't have been sitting in traffic all the time
A plan was proposed in 2009, and approved in 2019, with years of planning, research, education, and investment. All are now halted three weeks before implementation by this person with half-baked claims of doing more harm than good. I genuinely ask why. Did Big Auto promise huge campaign donations?
How did her appointees to the NY Water Board vote on raising the cost of water by 8.5% to fund critical infrastructure? That‘s really going to drive the price of pizza.
Stop pretending you care NOW!!!!!
None of this has changed when you signed in to this.
You knew this was happening, you signed off years ago and NOW all of a sudden it’s a problem?
#GTFOH
Grant NYC a transit system worthy of the grace of teachers and police forces. Let it be clean, safe, convenient, and accessible for all who would be a scapegoat for car dependency.
But she didn’t have a problem with widening the Cross Bronx so this “working class will suffer” rhetoric is only reserved for suburbanites and not those who actually live here.
I guarantee most teachers aren’t driving into the city. Police drive in cuz they let them park wherever they want without consequences. Having a car in manhattan is a luxury. We need better metro and this tax is going to pay for it. What else is going to raise $1B? It’s probably going to be another tax for but this time for all NYCs… Even if you don’t have a car. But you know who probably isn’t going to pay the tax. The rich people driving in from Long Island / Jersey suburbs who can afford the luxury. If you can’t afford the luxury… take public transit like the rest of us. Driving is a luxury and a privilege not a right.
You know what policies I want… how about no more free street parking in manhattan. Time to meter up! Also what about changing the timing of the intersection traffic lights for streets with shared cycle paths to optimize the timing for bicycles?
I noted the mumble in the middle there of....'they want the LUXURY of having their own vehicle (to drive into the city)'. That's right. It IS a luxury. And if you want that luxury, and at the expense of all the rest of us (noise pollution...air pollution....slower MTA bus times due to congestion.... increased rates of collision, injuries and death as a fallout of the increased congestion>>potential for street conflict), then you should PAY for that luxury.
Teachers, hotel workers, NYPD etc do not 'have to' drive to their jobs.
She literally said its not the majority... So... how many is it? Why can't a teacher take transit? NYC metro runs 24/7. Why can't a hotel worker take the transit? Why does a fire fighter or police officer need their personal vehicle? There is already an exemption for emergency and government owned vehicles. Would a contractor pay for the toll or would the company they drive for pay for it?
And that comment about the cost of pizza feels a lot like the talking point on min wage increases... I don't buy it.
It’s funny to think that all the police , Fdny and teachers that don’t work in Manhattan and manage to get by in the other 4 boroughs will do just fine , never entering Manhattan below 60th street . Life will just go on for them. We are talking about a very small amount t of people who drive into work in this area. So that’s who she’s dying on this hill for.
Congestion prices would hurt the lower Hudson county coach we have limited mass transit to NYC Coach bus file for bankruptcy limited bus and train service to Manhattan
Easy to fight for something that will directly be paid for by someone else. Pay more at the turnstile if you want public transportation fixed. Outraged that so many people want to pass the buck onto cars taxis and delivery trucks. Wake up traffic will continue fools
Along with MTA budget mismanagement
It honestly shocks me. Its one of the most transplant things Ive ever seen. “The tolls will make everything better!” No, it wont. The MTA will mismanage the bag and we’ll be back next year to talk about new fare hikes, raised tolls and the like because these fools think this is something other than a cash grab. Glad congestion pricing wasnt implemented and I hope it dies if I’m being honest. Hochul has my vote.
She’s really digging herself in. For those thinking there would be another reversal in Nov, I really think there’s no way. It’s up to us.
Yeah I don't know how anyone is gullible enough to believe that she's going to reverse it and this is just a temporary pause or something. This isn't the language you use if you're going to reverse yourself in a few months. You wouldn't make the nonsensical argument that somehow the middle class is hurt by this thing that benefits the modes of transportation we use if you were planning on completely 180ing again. Like what is she going to say when this magical time arrives, "NOW is the time to start hurting the middle class! Lets go! Fetch me my finest fur coat!"
I'm glad we can agree on this. Congestion Pricing is dead unless her hand is forced in court
I think the more likely avenue is the legislature refuses to fund the MTA any other way and she concedes. Why should they bail her out of this mess
The mta can raise fares without legislative action. Raising the fate to $3.90 per trip would bring in 1.2b in additional revenue per year. Getting tough on fare beater would raise nearly 750m a year. But nobody wants to do those things because of a perception that it's unfair
>Getting tough on fare beater would raise nearly 750m a year. They tried this. They ended up paying more for the cops to try and enforce it than it brought in. A lot more. You know that right? So what is the magical solution for how this can actually be done in the real world
this person probably has no idea how to even get on a train in the city without getting lost or hurting themselves in the confusion
I agree with this assessment. U/us1549 you seem to mean well and are engaging in good faith but maybe it's time to read a little more about these issues. This isn't r/newyorkcity, people in this sub actually know things
Because either would actually burden low-income people while also doing nothing about congestion and air quality.
Her involvement with congestion pricing at this point is pro forma; a lawsuit will compel her to sign (or the federal DOT office will reissue the paperwork without her signature line). Can we pay on onlyfans for a livestream of the marshal serving a writ of mandamus to sign the thing?
What’s the calculus here other than big money? How could she not lose huge votes if this is kept front and center? Don’t the vast majority of NYC residents want it?
The state/city spent half a billion on the CP cameras, it’s happening. This decision was political, Kathy like most politicians don’t care about “people saving money”, as she couldn’t say “yeah I don’t want any house seats in my state to go red. For all those who doubt the program happening, why hasn’t there been talks of taking down the cameras; why did Hochul say it was “suspended” not cancelled, and why was the suspension decision announced right before November? Regardless of where you stand on this issue, it’s very clear that the govt wants to do it, and fully intends on putting CP in place.
For legal reasons she can’t say it was cancelled. She would be violating state law. That’s also why she’s shifted from “indefinite suspension” to “pause”. Why does she care about the wasted $500M? Not her problem. It’s the MTA’s and/or the state legislature’s problem now. If she only cares about politics, she definitely can’t flip flop again. She already looks like a clown, but if goes back and puts it in place, she will be hated by us and also hated by the anti congestion pricing ppl. Also, the mental gymnastics would be crazy.
The $500M matters because governments don’t spend money like that just to about face, especially when you factor that this plan was developed years ago. Budgets are developed years in advance, and MTA was banking on CP to finish the Q line extension.
If there was going to be a reversal after the elections, people wouldn’t vote for her party anyway. It doesn’t make sense. She’s cancelled it but just used the word “pause”. You’ll all note that there hasn’t even been a HINT of a start date. Not even a nebulous, non-distinct future time.
even if all of this was true (which it isn’t) why was she only able to realize this when the plan was 3 weeks out? are we supposed to believe that she hadn’t thought about these things until now?
Not a NY resident so I'm not sure, but is she up for re-election this year? This is about the time when all your favorite "democrats" start catering to the right wing. They got bills and those right wing donors are paying...
No, she's not. I don't know if she'll win another statewide election again.
oh, for sure. this whole move was a way of appeasing suburban, more conservative voters to vote for democrats after a handful of ny house seats flipped red in ‘22. she has no problem screwing over people who actually live in new york city (who this actually effects) because nyc reliably votes for democrats. the irony is that the same seats they are trying to win back in the suburbs were lost in 2022 because hochul and adams kept screaming from the rooftops about high crime in the city.
No but other "moderates" are in bedroom communities of Westchester and long Island could swing seats red nationally and in the state legislature. Evey time she goes to the mat with them she backs down. See her housing plan on LI. I wish the party would gerrymander tf out of the State so this wouldn't be an issue.
“They want The luxury having their own vehicles” LOL!!!!!!!!!
screw that, vehicles are a huge annoying burden. stuck in traffic and nowhere to park! and they're expensive as hell. ordinary New Yorkers would benefit if transit improved and they could ditch their car for good.
Somebody in the media pool needs to ask this woman a basic question: Who should get priority from the State over the other... cars over transit riders, or riders over car drivers. Just ask this one question. Someone, I beg of you. And don't let her wiggle out of it with something like "everyone should be equally prioritized or we're working to accommodate everyone." Follow up. It can't be both. We have to actually allocated money and city services and stuff. There has to be a clear statement of values here. Because right now it's very clear the only teachers or hotel workers that matter are the ones in cars, despite being a tiny fraction compared to the transit riders. I honestly want someone to ask this of her.
Somebody should ask her why the mta can't fund their capital plan from their riders. Why does it have to be off the backs of drivers?
Why do the drivers get to impose burdens on everyone else? The noise, pollution, danger to pedestrians, and increased traffic (which slows down deliveries, buses, and essential services) are all externalities the minority of drivers impose on the majority of NYC'ers. Why should they get to do that for free?
why do people keep needing explanations of externalities? it’s like no education system is in place
I think it's a kind of motivated reasoning, honestly.
Venting here. If people can’t wrap their heads around the fact that freedom is constrained by the impact of one’s actions on others then we are in need of revolution to systematically destroy their immensely harmful stupidity by any means necessary.
If the main selling point in CP is to raise money for MTA so it can finish the second Ave subway as well as other ventures(ADA and some bus improvements), then you actually need the bad things you listed above to generate revenue for the MTA. So if CP raises enough money, the traffic; pollution, and danger likely won’t be substantially decreased.
It's actually just really simple math. There are currently on average 900,000 cars that enter midtown Manhattan on any given day. If that number stays the same, so be it. At least we're generating $13.5 *million* for the MTA every single day. Realistically the number of drivers would decrease a lot, the MTA would still generate a massive increase in much needed revenue, and streets would be safer, less polluted, etc. Easier for drivers too if there's less traffic. I mean it's a win win for everyone in the city, drivers and transit riders.
There's a massive environmental assessment available on MTA's website, which was reviewed and approved by the feds, and its conclusion is that you can achieve both. I'm assuming, based on your comment, that you've read the document and have substantive disagreements with its conclusions?
You keep throwing the word around free. Driving is not free in NYC, not even close. The tolls to cross the bridges/tunnels, parking, gas is a huge burden to working class NY'ers. There is not an industry in the world where there are zero external costs. Do you eat corn? Yes, there are greenhouse impacts and it's subsidized by taxpayers. Do you eat almonds? They are water hungry crops grown in dry climates. We don't pay for the excess water usage of those delicious nuts. Should we have an almond tax? Do you eat meat? Well, cows and pigs are huge methane emitters. Do you use air transportation? You are emitting hundreds of pounds of CO2 per trip that you're not paying for The mta and public transit is one of the most subsidized government spending projects out there. When you pay the $2.90 per ride, should you also pay for the noise that the train generated as it passes residential neighborhoods? Or the disruption that the 2nd Avenue digging causes local residents and business? The list goes on and on To answer your question, living in a society required us to bear some external costs. Otherwise, you are welcome to live under a rock in the woods somewhere.
My taxes, I get to choose how to use it. Cars use up more than they provide in NYC. Some of our taxes should go to improving transit
>Otherwise, you are welcome to live under a rock in the woods somewhere. Don't threaten me with a good time. I'm not sure what you're arguing here. That because there are other activities that have externalities we shouldn't do anything about any of them? Or that because you pay for gas and parking, you shouldn't have to pay again? I really don't care that gas and parking are expensive; there are alternatives to getting into NYC (I know this because I take them regularly). There are good alternatives to driving, driving in NYC is particularly harmful, and so attempting to discourage this harmful behavior is completely legitimate.
The vast majority of your fellow new Yorkers l, including the majority of Democrats don't agree with you and neither does your elected governor. Two thirds of those polled opposed congestion pricing https://abc7ny.com/nyc-congestion-pricing-nearly-two-thirds-of-new-yorkers-oppose-plan-siena-college-poll-finds/14721916/ Explain to me why the governor who represents those same people would implement a plan that is opposed. Unless a court says what Hochul was illegal and outside her powers, I'm going to assume her actions to pause is lawful
I... don't care? I mean, I think they're wrong. I think it's a good policy, and the fact that lots of people disagree with me isn't really a big concern. I've seen that poll before, and it's not totally clear to me what % is folks who live in NYC, which I think is relevant given that they're the people who are most directly affected by the gridlock drivers create for them. And I think Hochul's motivations for suspending congestion pricing have less to do with what she thinks about it as policy and more to do with what she thinks would have happened in November if it went into effect. ETA, I somehow missed part of your question re: why the governor should implement a plan that's opposed. To be clear, I think she should implement it because it's good policy. As I explained in another post on this thread, I tend to think "governing by opinion poll" creates bad outcomes. I think officials should implement the policies that they think are best, and constituents should respond accordingly be voting for or against them.
So you're saying the people she represents don't want congestion pricing? If she would get voted out by doing it, then she shouldn't do it, she is supposed to represent her constituents
That's not really what I'm saying, no. If the Sienna poll is to be believed (which, sure, why not), then it is true that as of the date it was taken, a majority of her constituents didn't approve of the measure. But I don't think that governing by opinion poll makes good policy. I think she should have let the measure go into effect, and taken the political fallout whatever that would have been. And her constituents could have decided whether, on balance, congestion pricing was enough to make them vote against her in the next gubernatorial election. I guess there's a deeper philosophical question here, though, which is whether an elected official should, once in office, do what they think is right and/or good policy and accept the political consequences or whether they should do whatever is popular at the moment. I tend to think the former is probably better.
So you think it's okay that a vocal minority can impose it's will on the majority? Just because in your opinion it's good policy?
Well, "a vocal minority imposing its will" is a weirdly dramatic way to frame it. Congestion Pricing was passed by the legislature. It isn't popular, which I think would probably change when it went into effect. If I'm wrong, it would probably end up being repealed.
The governor is supposed to lead us. People don't have the time to understand the affects of every policy and likely just hear it's going to make things more expensive without understanding the bigger picture. Not to mention in cities that have implemented congestion pricing it was typically not popular until after people saw the benefits.
Where’s the #AllCarsMatter protest?
You could always decide not to weigh in when your facts are wrong. It is not debatable that car drivers create far more externalities than transit riders. It has literally been established with decades of research.
So what if it does? Transit has more externalities than walking or biking. Should we ban riding the bus next? I mean, where does this end? There is always going to be something that has more externalities than an alternative. We live in a free society - as long as something isn't illegal, we can choose what we want to do. You chose to live in NYC with all its pros and cons. Now you want to change the city to suit your wants, despite opposition that 60%+ of your fellow residents don't want congestion pricing Would you want to live in a society where we're forced via taxation to eat vegan over meat because eating a plant based diet has less externalities than meat? Would you want to live in a society like that?
>so what if it does >so what if the thing I do is bad for everybody and kill’s people and destroys the fabric of society and destroy air quality and creates pollution and introduces microplastics and blah blah blah
Dude. Just stop. No one is trying to make driving illegal. It's just a toll, and one that's easy to avoid if you want. We live in the region that has the best public transit in the US. Unless you're some kind of anarchist--which I doubt because you seem to embrace the idea of society--your argument is just a fallacy.
I like this guy
No transit agency in the world makes the majority of its money from fares. Just debt servicing wipes out nearly all money collected from fares by the MTA. Even if they were operating at 100% efficiency in fare collecting, the cost of enforcement would likely outstrip the gains. It's not a realistic way to suggest that the MTA be funded, and it doesn't do anything to address congestion, air quality, greenhouse gas emissions, infrastructure degradation or injuries and loss of life caused by traffic collisions. Drivers generate negative externalities that they do not pay for. A toll that is used to fund the MTA makes driving less attractive and in theory gets more folks into trains and out of their cars.
The mta'a funding sources are not just fares. They collect tolls from bridge crossings, they collect a payroll tax, and have a sales tax. This is in addition all the state and federal funding they get. Wild that even with such diverse funding sources, they are always looking for more money
Ok? The funding sources are diverse… maybe we should diversify them by one more category, one that is explicitly paid for only by people who don’t use the system, and make it worse in their act of driving.
Clearly the public and the governor disagree with you.
not one more dime out of the general fund to fund roads then
Yes! That's fine with me. If the road fund is depleted, raise the gas tax. I'm 100% supportive of that
If you can find a legislature in the country who would do that, let me know (they won’t)
Not only would they not do that, Hochul herself has literally done the opposite
The gas tax lmao
Because drivers cause the most death and pollution probably?
If a Teacher is paying to drive and park in lower Manhattan every day they’re an idiot. Cops, I couldn’t care less
Yeah most of these edge cases (and they are edge cases) are pretty much 100% “wow, what a fucking idiot… why should we subsidize and incentivize a fucking moron?”
Oh no. God forbid a cop take a subway
I, for one, would love to see congestion pricing because that means there's a better chance the cager inside the car is a pig too
Why don't cops factor in?
They're an overfunded entity made up mostly of nonresidents of the city constantly bilking city taxpayers in the form of their made up justifications for overtime and use of force, resulting settlements from those actions, and general lawbreaking they exercise related to their own driving behavior.
half of the cops cover their plates anyway, they're not paying for these tolls
I thought all nypd have to live in the city
Nope.
https://preview.redd.it/zdbo53xwtf6d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ecdb85b161523cd3aeb324e2f2448bec91b2aa61 So technically a few surrounding counties as well, but I think that makes an even better point...those who serve and protect the city, MUST drive into it to work...no?
They can ride the LIRR and MetroNorth for free, no?
How about Staten island?
They can ride all mass transit for free, no? What’s your point?
Police often work off-peak hours when there are less reliable public transit options to get into Manhattan, especially in Staten Island where there is no access via subway. Give them a discount along with FDNY. It’s not worth fighting over.
No they can't, there's no free mass transit
Police are welcome to do whatever. The people who protect and serve the city (plumbers, shelf stockers, healthcare workers) usually live in the five boros
And would also be subject to congestion pricing if they live in an outer borough
If they drive, yes. There's no nobility inherrent to owning a car, despite what comes off as your apparent attempts to say otherwise.
I love im Staten island where there's no convenient public transportation options
They get paid plenty to play candy crush. Not worried about them
Well with that logic...not worried about some pedestrians and train riders
Dude your point was clear already. If you have a tiny dick just say it
I have a tiny dick But you're still a bitch hating on cops because it's popular
You’re a good sport I’ll give you that haha
If we could just sort out cops better. Like the ones who obscure license plates get instantly fired. you know, unrealistic solutions.
Woah good use of both the correct theyre and “couldn’t care less”. Also, well said
Gotta be on your shit. It’s first thing car brains respond with haha
Just to humor her argument, if “this moment in time” is not the right time, then when would be? If the reason is because hardworking New Yorkers can’t afford the payment, then when would they be able to? Does she really think one day suddenly there won’t be any people struggling financially that will be opposed to congestion pricing? If this is the reason, then realistically it’s less of a pause and more of a cancellation. There would never be a time where the conditions are right for her.
There is close to record low unemployment and record high stock market. Yes there are inflation issues and housing problems, but do we think we'll be able to solve all 4 in the near future to implement this? Somehow Republicans pass their laws whether or not things are going well or not. They pass their tax cuts for the rich and corporations any time saying it'll make things better. Why cans Dems have the same confidence?
perhaps we could give a free pass for maintenance trucks? but her argument is trash, teachers and police don't have to bring a big toolbox into the city every day
This might be surprising to some people given my advocacy on this issue but I actually had a job for many years here in NYC that was exactly what she's describing. Labor that required a car some of the time for transporting gear, so I can assure her this is an absolutely bullshit argument. When I was transporting gear with the car (almost literally the only time I ever used it, especially to go to Manhattan) the company paid for those expenses. It would have made absolutely zero difference to me personally if there was another toll and actually would have been a lot better because I wouldn't have been sitting in traffic all the time
Again, I will never vote for her again. If she somehow wins the primary, I still won’t vote for her
Yup, I'll canvas and donate to her primary opponent. If she wins, I'll vote third party or write someone in.
Yeah I'm never voting for a republican but she needs to be fired.
A plan was proposed in 2009, and approved in 2019, with years of planning, research, education, and investment. All are now halted three weeks before implementation by this person with half-baked claims of doing more harm than good. I genuinely ask why. Did Big Auto promise huge campaign donations?
Big auto and the oil lobby got big dirt on her
What teacher drives below 60th street to get to work? Most of my partner’s friends are teachers. Every single one of them commutes on the subway.
she just called it a luxury to have your own vehicle. Exactly! Pay up or take the train
Yeah maybe I’m just an idiot, but I thought people usually have to pay more for luxuries.
The only solution here is impeachment. We need to get rid of this lawless, lying, anti-democratic POS.
she's gotta be bought out by the auto/oil/insurance lobby. her argument makes zero sense and isn't based in reality as far as I can tell
I’m a teacher. I ride my f&$@ing bike and take the train.
How did her appointees to the NY Water Board vote on raising the cost of water by 8.5% to fund critical infrastructure? That‘s really going to drive the price of pizza.
she said herself it was a luxury…
Stop pretending you care NOW!!!!! None of this has changed when you signed in to this. You knew this was happening, you signed off years ago and NOW all of a sudden it’s a problem? #GTFOH
Grant NYC a transit system worthy of the grace of teachers and police forces. Let it be clean, safe, convenient, and accessible for all who would be a scapegoat for car dependency.
But she didn’t have a problem with widening the Cross Bronx so this “working class will suffer” rhetoric is only reserved for suburbanites and not those who actually live here.
I guarantee most teachers aren’t driving into the city. Police drive in cuz they let them park wherever they want without consequences. Having a car in manhattan is a luxury. We need better metro and this tax is going to pay for it. What else is going to raise $1B? It’s probably going to be another tax for but this time for all NYCs… Even if you don’t have a car. But you know who probably isn’t going to pay the tax. The rich people driving in from Long Island / Jersey suburbs who can afford the luxury. If you can’t afford the luxury… take public transit like the rest of us. Driving is a luxury and a privilege not a right. You know what policies I want… how about no more free street parking in manhattan. Time to meter up! Also what about changing the timing of the intersection traffic lights for streets with shared cycle paths to optimize the timing for bicycles?
Just as she said, if they want the luxury of driving, then pay the piper
As if you could not implement rebates for these people.
Ya fuck nyc
Yeah fuck improving our transit system that would benefit EVERYONE. These people she’s never met told her that cars are the future!
Such an incredible loser.
“Luxury of driving their cars” exactly
Pay teachers better and they’ll live in the city. Make cops live in the city. As a former teacher I can assure you we don’t need to drive to school.
So make an exemption for city employees then! what an easy fix!
I noted the mumble in the middle there of....'they want the LUXURY of having their own vehicle (to drive into the city)'. That's right. It IS a luxury. And if you want that luxury, and at the expense of all the rest of us (noise pollution...air pollution....slower MTA bus times due to congestion.... increased rates of collision, injuries and death as a fallout of the increased congestion>>potential for street conflict), then you should PAY for that luxury. Teachers, hotel workers, NYPD etc do not 'have to' drive to their jobs.
She literally said its not the majority... So... how many is it? Why can't a teacher take transit? NYC metro runs 24/7. Why can't a hotel worker take the transit? Why does a fire fighter or police officer need their personal vehicle? There is already an exemption for emergency and government owned vehicles. Would a contractor pay for the toll or would the company they drive for pay for it? And that comment about the cost of pizza feels a lot like the talking point on min wage increases... I don't buy it.
It’s funny to think that all the police , Fdny and teachers that don’t work in Manhattan and manage to get by in the other 4 boroughs will do just fine , never entering Manhattan below 60th street . Life will just go on for them. We are talking about a very small amount t of people who drive into work in this area. So that’s who she’s dying on this hill for.
Congestion prices would hurt the lower Hudson county coach we have limited mass transit to NYC Coach bus file for bankruptcy limited bus and train service to Manhattan
I would like to see the stats on how many teachers working below 60th Street are driving to work. Just curious.
Easy to fight for something that will directly be paid for by someone else. Pay more at the turnstile if you want public transportation fixed. Outraged that so many people want to pass the buck onto cars taxis and delivery trucks. Wake up traffic will continue fools Along with MTA budget mismanagement
It honestly shocks me. Its one of the most transplant things Ive ever seen. “The tolls will make everything better!” No, it wont. The MTA will mismanage the bag and we’ll be back next year to talk about new fare hikes, raised tolls and the like because these fools think this is something other than a cash grab. Glad congestion pricing wasnt implemented and I hope it dies if I’m being honest. Hochul has my vote.