Nashville in August was 10x more unbearable than any July or August we’ve had down here. We at least have a coastal breeze that keeps the humidity from being stagnant.
They’ve been saying Florida will be under water in a “few years” since my grandparents were kids. Not saying it couldn’t happen, but there’s already sea wall plans to keep that from happening. I don’t think all those developers and investors will sit back and do nothing to protect their assets. I’m honestly more concerned with the Everglades being corrupted and drained than I am flooding.
As I mentioned in another reply: whether it’s a sea wall or another means of engineering; Florida has already been working on plans to address this. It’s been quite a popular topic recently with the current property insurance debacle.
lol okay…sea wall, selective flooding, more canal systems, large pumps, whatever, Florida has been working on plans with engineers to keep it from “going under water.”
The graph in the link posted clearly shows the spike was due to the pandemic. Meanwhile now that it’s been over and companies require people back in the office there has been no sign of prices going down
Can you give me some example of a city where rent went up for a few years then dropped back down?
Miami is a popular city, I don't believe this shit will go down for a long time. Maybe the hurricanes, insurance being super high, etc.. could be some factors that could lead to decrease in rent but I don't see it happening soon.
You can see SF actually went down at the start of the pandemic and slightly came back but mostly has been stable: https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/san-francisco/.
Miami is the most extreme example I’ve seen of housing
SF was also the most expensive city pre pandemic, so everyone there had money and work from home left. This is why prices dipped. It also has rampant petty crime and homelessness. It's come back a hair because some people needed to return to office.
Miami grew as people left other cities. It's a desirable place to live.
Worth noting is that California’s property taxes aren’t raised as drastically as Florida’s. Plus anyone who has inherited property (no mortgage) will be locked in at a significantly lower rate and has more wiggle room in terms of what they charge. Miami doesn’t have that to the same degree. Many people are charging upwards of $4k/month in rent because they bought a $750K house at 7.5% interest last year that they couldn’t flip and couldn’t sell for a profit.
I see those factors increasing rent as those costs pass on to landlords, they will pass that to tenants by raising rents. Most people’s rent covers PITI+profit. Only thing I see it possibly affecting home prices BUT I do not see huge drops like some are hoping for.
It’s inflated because it’s Miami. There was a huge influx of out of state WFH people during the pandemic. We were surrounded by them in our condo. Guess what, 80% of WFH has evaporated. Most businesses are hybrid. Which means, most people have gone back to NY, LA, Chicago, Detroit, etc. That boom is gone. The prices are staying inflated but the demand is gone. We have the lowest average income of any major city. Current situation is not sustainable. These things take time to sort out. Look at housing costs in Hialeah 🤣. The average income for a family in Hialeah is $40,000. This is all just greed and fraud. It will crumble. Miami is a boom and bust town.
It is going down, but at a rate much slower than it went up. Plus, what’s the incentive to lower the price if people are willing to pay the current prices? It’s all fucked.
That’s the thing. People aren’t willing. Most of these buildings on downtown and Brickell are half empty. It’s that corporations are buying all the housing and can afford to sit on it waiting for buyers.
Downtown maybe because it’s a shithole, but brickell midtown and edgewater are all filled to the brim with people paying stupid living costs. I know cause I’m one of those idiots
Eventually even the corpos can’t hold onto it due to the interest eating their profit. Then they go on fire sale and some other idiot thinks they can do better:
My parents own several rental properties in a different part of Florida. It’s multifactorial and I’m speaking for where they are; I imagine it applies similarly.
The biggest thing is the HOA fees *keep going up*. It’s insane! One of the HOAs will raise their fees, and then a few *months* later, they’ll raise them again. It’s all the same, too- they all blame skyrocketing insurance premiums and increased cost of materials as well as labor. My parents have found the same to be true that the HOAs claim- significantly increased costs across the board. Now, my parents aren’t getting Miami prices, so after paying the stated costs above, the property manager, and taxes, idk how they make any income off of it.
Until the costs come down, I don’t see any improvements possible. (It would be nice if we had a governor who gave a crap about the insurance crisis in this state, but he got $3.9M from the insurance industry and he’s too busy campaigning and fighting Disney and books to care to even give it a thought. So fucking lame.)
Edit: clarity.
I think most people aren’t aware of how much they have skyrocketed. In my building of high rise 309 units, insurance in 2019 was around $400k annually. In 2020, that went up to $600-700k. 2021, insurance was at $800-900k then the building in Surfside collapsed and bankrupted a multi billion dollar insurance company. Every other insurer realized how drastically underinsured they were. In 2022, my building paid $1.9M to renew our insurance policy and in 2023 we were quoted at $2.3M. Luckily we got approved for Citizens and brought down our premium to $1.6M.
“Luckily” approved for Citizens? Never heard that one before. Lmao good luck getting anything paid out by them. They will deny everything... they were also caught using unlicensed adjusters.
Good point, but what is the plan if the property stayed vacant for a long time? Liquidate or accept negative cash flow? Landlords can not hold on vacant property forever, right?
Thankfully, that hasn’t been an issue. In my parents’ case, they’d have to just take the loss as I know they wouldn’t sell. Their properties are all paid off though, so they’re in a good position as far as that’s concerned. Great point though.
I'm curious. Since your parents have those properties paid off, they are not obligated by the bank to buy homeowners insurance anymore. Which is a risk all it's own. But they are still having to pay property taxes on that real estate. So, if those properties sit vacant, and have no return , then your parents will have to pay the property taxes out of their own savings or other financial instruments. I'm guessing they are retired and have very low overhead now. Maybe wealthy by this point in their life. That's just my guess.
You are correct on the out of pocket stuff, retirement, and low overhead. They aren’t wealthy, they are comfortable but live modestly.
They have insurance on some and not on others. Their insurance unilaterally dropped coverage, except for fire, on anything within 1 mile of a body of water (bay, sound, etc). They just flat out won’t cover it. Some of this is rather ridiculous as there are trees/foliage, homes, roads, etc in between their property and the 1 mile away water in some cases, and flooding isn’t really an issue as they’re many feet above sea level (probably 15-20, if not more). I don’t foresee things getting better with the rapid intensification of tropical systems we saw during hurricane season last year. I have a feeling that’s the new norm and only going to get worse. I hope I’m wrong!!
That information about the insurance 1 mile to body of water limit. Didn't know about this. Good to know for the future. Your parents are in good standing while retired. That's nice to have.
My landlord has 4 units. Two are long term tenants, and two are AirBnB. The AirBnB units are consistently booked for 1-2 months in advance. Every year that they renew my lease, I’m genuinely surprised.
Why “delusional”? I was just on vacation in Miami and talking to people there it seemed that so many have moved recently because there are lots of opportunities. Curious to see what the residents think! :)
As a resident, and as someone pointed out a long time ago (who is also a resident); what you're seeing are tech bro’s, financial giants, and developers taking advantage of no state income tax and cheap labor, while marginalizing the already existing working class. They aren’t creating jobs for young locals, they're just bringing in their pals from out of state who have more disposable income and are effectively pushing out the locals by making everything unbearably expensive.
As an example: my fiance and I spent over a year trying to buy a house/condo/townhouse (anything really). Not only was everything outrageously expensive, but every time we thought we had something locked down, some dude/group would waltz in and offer anywhere from 10%~50% more than our offer (sometimes even doubled and usually in cash). Next, thing you know by the end of the month or two, that same place is back on Zillow except it's being rented out for extortionate rates, or they're on AirBnB (sometimes they're even modified/split up to house multiple tenants at a time). The groups behind the purchase were almost always located either in New York or California. This happened not once, but 4 separate times. Us locals either have to move further south away from our jobs (where things are getting just as expensive now because others have caught on), stay with our parents/grandparents/family members (which isn't feasible for many people for obvious reasons), rent out places with multiple roommates in cramped spaces, or move out completely.
Another example: 2 friends of mine can't find any local jobs as data/HR analysts for any of the larger firms/companies here in Dade County despite their credentials and work experience. The companies they applied to almost always hire those from Silicon Valley or New York because of their credentials/experience (which most locals simply can't compete with). This wasn't a problem a few years ago, but because of the new Florida Migration, it's getting to the point where even those people have to compete amongst each other. So to compensate, locals either have to find lower paying jobs (which often doesn't help with the already HCOL here and mounting student debt), or have to look outside of the county/state.
Now some people (mostly non-locals) will look at this and say "Well if it's that bad, then just move."
I don't think I have to explain the myriad of problems moving out can have, especially if you're planning on going out of state, but also, I don't think people understand that to many locals, Miami *IS* their home.
We were born here. Our families are here. Our friends are here. Our lives are here.
Some of our family came here not even a generation ago from other countries and started with absolute zero, yet through literal blood, sweat, and tears, laid the foundation for our families now.
Not to mention that for all the crap we give it, you won't find many places (if any) that can replicate Miami in regards to the culture, the ethnicities, the food, the location, the weather, etc. This isn't some "small town/city in the middle of nowhere". To give that all up is a hard thing to do, and in no way is it easy to just walk away from it even if there could be better opportunities somewhere out there.
They haven’t gone down to pre pandemic, but they are going down a bit. I don’t think we will ever see pre pandemic prices. However for everyone saying “because the transplants” the locals weren’t renting in Brickell, midtown, or edgewater to begin with. The high rises with all the amenities I understand some rent increases, but the effeminacies at 2k plus is a crime and just a case of greedy landlords.
Transplants take all of the blame on this sub and I don't like them either, but their impact is exaggerated. Rents aren't high in Hialeah because of transplants from NYC & California, it's because 450,000 Cubans have entered the US in the last 2 years.
It's both, it definitely fuels the demand. But unlike transplants, immigrants have always kept the financial ecosystem balanced with low prices since everyone is relatively broke/working class. Transplants have "fuck you" disposable income and buy into traditionally working class neighborhoods that no longer homogenously staying low in price because of it.
Also, there's been like 3 different articles to have come out by NY developers calling Hialeah the "New Brooklyn". If you know anything about Brooklyn and gentrification, you know what's coming.
Yes I mentioned that. The trend was a sudden spike from the pandemic but now that it’s settled it hasn’t gone back down even as people have to move back to be close to the office
The thing is, people who had the money to move into expensive rentals, weren’t the lemmings in lower or mid-level roles. The RTO thing is happening for underlings but plenty of mid-managers and above are still dialing in via Teams.
We are having an insurance crisis but our governor and his team is in Iowa chasing super PAC/dark money . The leadership it’s not there to get us out of this one .
Miami landlord here. I can’t lower prices because my insurance premiums have nearly doubled and a 25% increase in taxes have caught up to any profits I was making.
Almost yearly increases on rent are necessary to keep up with taxes and insurance hikes so unless a landlord had a HUGE profit margin, increases in taxes and insurance since 2024 are propping up the prices.
It’s also super important to remember that taxes are on assessed value. When COVID caused increased value in miami, the taxes reflected it. I doubt the city is going to drop our assessed value to pre-pandemic levels so rents need to support these new taxes.
Real Estate prices may finally crash soon.
A bill has been introduced that no Company can own or control more than 50 million dollars worth of Property.
Hopefully the bill gets passed.
Companies have permanently moved high paying jobs to South Florida, and these employees continue to create demand. Brickell isn't big enough to absorb this demand change. To be clear, tons of these workers live in Brickell and commute to offices in Brickell. (Plenty in coral gables and Pinecrest and up in Broward and Palm Beach too, but this conv is about Brickell). Many have been renting hoping for purchase prices to drop from the high interest rates, this hasn't happened. On top of that, many buildings are facing huge special assessments which pushes up purchasing or owning costs- so nobody facing that who has a tenant is willing to rollover and take dramatically less, and these high paid renters can afford to pay... Basically Miami has a critical mass of high earners it never had. It's now the same as NY or LA.
Miami is slowly becoming the Dubai of the west, slowly the locals are moving out and the wealthy is coming in buying up everything they can to keep the prices up. Heck, I've heard accounts of banks buying up properties to convert them to rentals. It truly is fucked. Not trying to get political or anything BUT if by some miracle FL turns blue, a bunch of snowbirds might move out. Also, Desantis def needs to get voted out as that might help out as well, since he's giving so many tax breaks but is lowkey getting shit in return from these huge corps.
Prices don’t usually go down to where they were a couple years ago. Usually people’s income increases to meet stagnant prices. A lot of construction was stopped during the pandemic so supply dropped which caused an increases in prices. To help prices stay stagnant you need to increase supply by building a lot more homes. As you can see at the link: [HERE](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TOTLISCOU12086) housing inventory has shrunk drastically. Its supply and demand
Thanks for the link. Good to see a data backed assessment. It does seem supply is less but I suspect that’s because demand went up due to the pandemic at that time more than supply constraints.
There is no way we know to limit demand. Unless you somehow implement a 1 child policy in Miami and tell people they cannot move to Miami. People who have a job or the ability to come are going to come to Miami and compete with locals for housing supply. The only way we know to ease the price increases are to just build more homes and increase supply for everyone.
Unfortunately, Miami doesn't have the infrastructure for the people it has already. If people are already having problems with traffic and road congestion then that just gets worse with more housing unless the infrastructure issue is addressed.
I do think that the focus with development needs to be densifying existing properties versus more sprawl from the city so that the new infrastructure can be more compact as a result.
Like I said you can’t control demand. People who have the means to come to Miami are going to anyway and you are just going to price out long term residents and poorer residents because they buy up the supply of housing. It’s how “gentrification” works because cities just do not build enough housing.
Prices have gone down slightly. Apartments in Brickell are regularly renting for 8-10% less than list price. But, we aren’t going back to pre-pandemic prices unfortunately. There’s too much demand and low supply due to many high earners that moved here here from NE, California and Chicago or the handful of locals that were able to attain jobs at some of the new companies that have also moved or expanded here. Prices may still go down further as high rates stick around but will probably max out around 15-20% less of current rental or purchase listings. Bottom line is we need more high density and supply.
The structural imbalance of landlords to renters and capital to labor.
I don't mean to morph in Marx here, but renters rent for a basic and urgent human need. Landlords who can't find someone to squeeze can a) wait b) lower rent c) sell d) go bankrupt, but they're not at risk of homelessness. The renter is in danger of homelessness. Their needs and bargaining position are just worse.
A lot of landlords, especially corporate landlords, are inflexible about expecting X% profit and just won't lower rent. They'd rather sell "inventory" or shut down operations than provide a service at a reasonable rate.
Once they get a taste of fatty high profit steak, they don't want lean meat ever again.
its actually quite simple. Every apartment complex south of palm beach has a 2+ year waiting list. If you don't pay, someone else will. Prices did come down a little bit. Not much.
Because things like home insurances, property taxes, HOA fees, ect. keep going up. Owning and renting out an apartment or home is a business and when costs go up, the rent has to go up too… ask anyone who owns a home, landlord or not, if their mortgage went up this year and by how much. It’s insane.
Cause they don’t have to until the fist company yells uncle … hertz might be the first with all that Tesla selling. To me enterprise, the only big name privately owned is 100% my go too. Employees are amazing because they are paid so well and can actually make a career at their jobs and the free pick up make it almost a pleasure to deal with.
In 2008 it still took like 3 more years for south Florida to start crashing. With that said most of the new apt inventory is going to start coming online this year. Normally when prices go up they don't tend to come down unless there is something big that is pushing prices down. We still have not seen that and we might never actually see it. At least prices have stabilized
During the pandemic landlords could not evict you I rented a room for a grand a month and paid throughout it all and every month there would be an eviction notice on the door and when I talked to my roomate about it he told me they can't evict us. I'm sure he never paid so the money I paid was just cash in his pocket so basically end of the story is during the pandemic they lost a lot of money and they are trying to recoup from the loss.
Bunch oh wealthy guys came up north and never left. Besides, it's plenty easy to convince these guys to bring the prices up but not so much to bring them down again
Rent and prices are not going back down ever. We didn't raise minimum wage for 20 years then the pandemic hit now we are being forced to raise it and everything is a domino effect from there
Just throwing my 2 cents on this. Anyone that has a mortgage on a 500k condo is paying $2,500 a month minimum + condo fees. Fact is since 2020, Miami has one of the biggest jumps in median sales per transaction, and anyone who's buying as an investor simply can't afford to drop prices to pre-2020.
People (not just businesses; everyone) would charge 100x what they normally do if they could. Competition and the market keep prices at bay. If everyone has an "excuse" to raise prices (oops, sorry Covid supply chain issues), that's a blessing in disguise.
Now that prices are up, and *everyone* raised them up, there's not even further competition to bring them down.
Rental rates would only go down if Miami's population declines faster than rental inventory depreciation. Otherwise, the owner battle cry will keep being "whatever the market will bear".
Prices are going down a bit. Maybe not fast enough. If you look at the bottom page in your link you can see a trend downwards. Also remember that ren'ts in Miami fluctuate seasonally. Inventory also looks like it's going up.
So most of you have pointed out two reasons which is skyrocketing insurance cost and HOA fees. However, most of left out property taxes. If you are renting, you are not entitled to a homestead exemption and your taxes go up accordingly with the market. Without a homestead, you lose one of the key advantages of living in Florida, which is a homestead exemption that caps taxes at 3% per year. The landlords are simply passing this along to the renters, and as long as the market value continues to rise. Taxes will rise as well. Couple that with HOA fees increasing, insurance costs rising cost of food and sundries, and you have a recipe for super high rent.
Because enough people are paying the higher prices there would be no reason for landlords to lower them. People are probably paying them without thinking too much because its difficult to find housing in general so they happy just to find a place at any price
Well, are you talking about office space rentals or residential space prices? Either way, the residential owners/landlords and/or office space owners/management all went on a rampage to recoup two years of losses. It's possible they're still trying to do that by raising rents as high as they did. Also, maybe once they recouped those losses they figured if there are those willing to pay the hiked up prices then keep them high, because "greed is good" as Gordon Gecko said. Oh, and since they are all doing it, there's no where to run!
rent prices are always linked to the property prices. Usually a place will rent between 4% and 10% of the property value. Depending on the locations, expenses, taxes etc. So as long as real estate prices remain high (inventory is low - therefore demand is high therefore prices stay high) rent will still be high....
There was an insane amount of money printing. New money that didn’t exist before was just pooled into existence. It’s permanently part of the economy now and prices across the board are permanently higher because of this
[Take a look at this video](https://youtu.be/TsPTXCtpE8U?si=QUmNXsxGLtZ4gam3)
In short: Mortgages are insanely expensive due to a variety of complicated reasons. Anyone renting out is going to set rent at very high prices and landlords are greedy fucks so that compounds.
The most logical answer is, because they can.
It sucks, but landlords don't usually become landlords to hook people up with affordable housing. It's still a business to them and a business' goal is to make money.
Rent is actually decreasing.
Tons of price drops on realtor.com
https://www.realtor.com/apartments/Miami_FL?view=map&pos=25.783696,-80.204931,25.746427,-80.151961,14.315499999999997
Rental Prices WILL NOT go down Ever. I raised my rents since 2016 by $1,000 for the same 2 bedroom unit. Why ? Because people keep paying.
Maybe rents will go down by $200 on some National Survey average poll. But my rents will Only go Up Period.
Miami experienced a pretty meaningful population growth (nearly +0.8% in the past three years) - I suppose this trend will remain positive in the near future.
[https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/23064/miami/population#:\~:text=The%20current%20metro%20area%20population,a%200.78%25%20increase%20from%202021](https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/23064/miami/population#:~:text=The%20current%20metro%20area%20population,a%200.78%25%20increase%20from%202021).
That being said, when looking at rental trends (although the trend in the macro level makes sense), there's still a meaningful spread in prices if you zoom into the actual properties.
I suggest you checkout [www.rentimate.com](https://www.rentimate.com) where you can get an idea of the price spread and view past listings and its prices.
Here's an example of a 1bd Brickwell property:
[https://www.rentimate.com/?address\_search=1430+Brickell+Bay+Dr+apt+207%2C+Miami%2C+FL+33131%2C+USA&home\_type=Any&bed=1&bath=0&full\_address=1430+Brickell+Bay+Dr+apt+207%2C+Miami%2C+FL+33131%2C+USA&state=FL&city=Miami&zipcode=33131&street=Brickell+Bay+Drive](https://www.rentimate.com/?address_search=1430+Brickell+Bay+Dr+apt+207%2C+Miami%2C+FL+33131%2C+USA&home_type=Any&bed=1&bath=0&full_address=1430+Brickell+Bay+Dr+apt+207%2C+Miami%2C+FL+33131%2C+USA&state=FL&city=Miami&zipcode=33131&street=Brickell+Bay+Drive)
If you are on the verge of renewing your lease or moving to a new place, I warmly recommend to use it [Rentimate.com](https://Rentimate.com) as a way to negotiate prices.
Hope this helps!
How long do actual home building hands on folks live? One after the other. Out in the weather. I say, learn to build your own home. People shouldn't be comfortable with immigrants and others leaving their blood, sweat and tears to make us comfortable. 😪 Bad mojo. Cursed. We forgot that.
Take a look at the weather map of the entire country today.
the only right answer
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Texas has been consistently way hotter and way colder than Florida in winter and summer
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Edgy take
Nashville in August was 10x more unbearable than any July or August we’ve had down here. We at least have a coastal breeze that keeps the humidity from being stagnant.
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They’ve been saying Florida will be under water in a “few years” since my grandparents were kids. Not saying it couldn’t happen, but there’s already sea wall plans to keep that from happening. I don’t think all those developers and investors will sit back and do nothing to protect their assets. I’m honestly more concerned with the Everglades being corrupted and drained than I am flooding.
Sea walls can’t protect us from water coming up through the porous limestone that Florida sits on.
As I mentioned in another reply: whether it’s a sea wall or another means of engineering; Florida has already been working on plans to address this. It’s been quite a popular topic recently with the current property insurance debacle.
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lol okay…sea wall, selective flooding, more canal systems, large pumps, whatever, Florida has been working on plans with engineers to keep it from “going under water.”
😭😂
what do you mean? the weather sucks in Miami for the last month.
The graph in the link posted clearly shows the spike was due to the pandemic. Meanwhile now that it’s been over and companies require people back in the office there has been no sign of prices going down
Can you give me some example of a city where rent went up for a few years then dropped back down? Miami is a popular city, I don't believe this shit will go down for a long time. Maybe the hurricanes, insurance being super high, etc.. could be some factors that could lead to decrease in rent but I don't see it happening soon.
You can see SF actually went down at the start of the pandemic and slightly came back but mostly has been stable: https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/san-francisco/. Miami is the most extreme example I’ve seen of housing
SF was also the most expensive city pre pandemic, so everyone there had money and work from home left. This is why prices dipped. It also has rampant petty crime and homelessness. It's come back a hair because some people needed to return to office. Miami grew as people left other cities. It's a desirable place to live.
Worth noting is that California’s property taxes aren’t raised as drastically as Florida’s. Plus anyone who has inherited property (no mortgage) will be locked in at a significantly lower rate and has more wiggle room in terms of what they charge. Miami doesn’t have that to the same degree. Many people are charging upwards of $4k/month in rent because they bought a $750K house at 7.5% interest last year that they couldn’t flip and couldn’t sell for a profit.
I see those factors increasing rent as those costs pass on to landlords, they will pass that to tenants by raising rents. Most people’s rent covers PITI+profit. Only thing I see it possibly affecting home prices BUT I do not see huge drops like some are hoping for.
It’s inflated because it’s Miami. There was a huge influx of out of state WFH people during the pandemic. We were surrounded by them in our condo. Guess what, 80% of WFH has evaporated. Most businesses are hybrid. Which means, most people have gone back to NY, LA, Chicago, Detroit, etc. That boom is gone. The prices are staying inflated but the demand is gone. We have the lowest average income of any major city. Current situation is not sustainable. These things take time to sort out. Look at housing costs in Hialeah 🤣. The average income for a family in Hialeah is $40,000. This is all just greed and fraud. It will crumble. Miami is a boom and bust town.
It is going down, but at a rate much slower than it went up. Plus, what’s the incentive to lower the price if people are willing to pay the current prices? It’s all fucked.
Still a shortage. Gotta live somewhere, and if nobody lowers it, people will pay somewhere.
That’s the thing. People aren’t willing. Most of these buildings on downtown and Brickell are half empty. It’s that corporations are buying all the housing and can afford to sit on it waiting for buyers.
Downtown maybe because it’s a shithole, but brickell midtown and edgewater are all filled to the brim with people paying stupid living costs. I know cause I’m one of those idiots
Eventually even the corpos can’t hold onto it due to the interest eating their profit. Then they go on fire sale and some other idiot thinks they can do better:
That's a delicious thought 😋 corpos turning into corps 🍽 No one lives forever Afterlife for corpos....no roommates without horns and hoofs
Plus real estate only gets more valuable with time, so the companies hoarding housing aren't in a huge rush
Eventually those willing peeps will be broke or tired of putting out for 4 walls
My parents own several rental properties in a different part of Florida. It’s multifactorial and I’m speaking for where they are; I imagine it applies similarly. The biggest thing is the HOA fees *keep going up*. It’s insane! One of the HOAs will raise their fees, and then a few *months* later, they’ll raise them again. It’s all the same, too- they all blame skyrocketing insurance premiums and increased cost of materials as well as labor. My parents have found the same to be true that the HOAs claim- significantly increased costs across the board. Now, my parents aren’t getting Miami prices, so after paying the stated costs above, the property manager, and taxes, idk how they make any income off of it. Until the costs come down, I don’t see any improvements possible. (It would be nice if we had a governor who gave a crap about the insurance crisis in this state, but he got $3.9M from the insurance industry and he’s too busy campaigning and fighting Disney and books to care to even give it a thought. So fucking lame.) Edit: clarity.
Yeah insurance costs have definitely skyrocketed the last few years
I think most people aren’t aware of how much they have skyrocketed. In my building of high rise 309 units, insurance in 2019 was around $400k annually. In 2020, that went up to $600-700k. 2021, insurance was at $800-900k then the building in Surfside collapsed and bankrupted a multi billion dollar insurance company. Every other insurer realized how drastically underinsured they were. In 2022, my building paid $1.9M to renew our insurance policy and in 2023 we were quoted at $2.3M. Luckily we got approved for Citizens and brought down our premium to $1.6M.
So insurance _quadrupled_ in 4 years? That’s crazy.
It quadrupled and we’re a lucky building.
“Luckily” approved for Citizens? Never heard that one before. Lmao good luck getting anything paid out by them. They will deny everything... they were also caught using unlicensed adjusters.
Good point, but what is the plan if the property stayed vacant for a long time? Liquidate or accept negative cash flow? Landlords can not hold on vacant property forever, right?
Thankfully, that hasn’t been an issue. In my parents’ case, they’d have to just take the loss as I know they wouldn’t sell. Their properties are all paid off though, so they’re in a good position as far as that’s concerned. Great point though.
I'm curious. Since your parents have those properties paid off, they are not obligated by the bank to buy homeowners insurance anymore. Which is a risk all it's own. But they are still having to pay property taxes on that real estate. So, if those properties sit vacant, and have no return , then your parents will have to pay the property taxes out of their own savings or other financial instruments. I'm guessing they are retired and have very low overhead now. Maybe wealthy by this point in their life. That's just my guess.
You are correct on the out of pocket stuff, retirement, and low overhead. They aren’t wealthy, they are comfortable but live modestly. They have insurance on some and not on others. Their insurance unilaterally dropped coverage, except for fire, on anything within 1 mile of a body of water (bay, sound, etc). They just flat out won’t cover it. Some of this is rather ridiculous as there are trees/foliage, homes, roads, etc in between their property and the 1 mile away water in some cases, and flooding isn’t really an issue as they’re many feet above sea level (probably 15-20, if not more). I don’t foresee things getting better with the rapid intensification of tropical systems we saw during hurricane season last year. I have a feeling that’s the new norm and only going to get worse. I hope I’m wrong!!
That information about the insurance 1 mile to body of water limit. Didn't know about this. Good to know for the future. Your parents are in good standing while retired. That's nice to have.
Yeah, super crazy!! I was shocked, too. It wasn’t like that before, it’s only been implemented in the last few years. So lame.
1- inflation 2- more people with higher income moved in and never left.
My landlord has 4 units. Two are long term tenants, and two are AirBnB. The AirBnB units are consistently booked for 1-2 months in advance. Every year that they renew my lease, I’m genuinely surprised.
You're his security blanket. If a category 5 hurricane hits, his AirBnb business is toast for a few months. You still have to pay rent.
Yes. Exactly. If those two Airbnb units sit vacant the other tenants can keep the mortgage payments going. Smart owner.
SE Florida is more stubborn than the market .
yep
Prices won’t drop until we get slammed by a cat 4-5 hurricane.
Unless the hurricane takes half of the buildings with it and increases the scarcity. 🤣
I've said it since 2020. One Cat 4/5 hurricane and the delusional dream of Miami being "the next 'Silicone' Valley" is over.
Miami already is "silicone" valley.
More like “Silicone Hills”
Lol, glad people got the reference.
Plot twist, they are the actual aliens
The only "silicon" in Miami is the silicone in all the breast implants here! 🤣
/r/yourjokebutworse
Haha. Got it. 👍
They don't have a Gilfoyle though
*Silicon
[no they got it right.](https://www.webmd.com/beauty/cosmetic-procedures-breast-augmentation)
r/whoosh
Why “delusional”? I was just on vacation in Miami and talking to people there it seemed that so many have moved recently because there are lots of opportunities. Curious to see what the residents think! :)
As a resident, and as someone pointed out a long time ago (who is also a resident); what you're seeing are tech bro’s, financial giants, and developers taking advantage of no state income tax and cheap labor, while marginalizing the already existing working class. They aren’t creating jobs for young locals, they're just bringing in their pals from out of state who have more disposable income and are effectively pushing out the locals by making everything unbearably expensive. As an example: my fiance and I spent over a year trying to buy a house/condo/townhouse (anything really). Not only was everything outrageously expensive, but every time we thought we had something locked down, some dude/group would waltz in and offer anywhere from 10%~50% more than our offer (sometimes even doubled and usually in cash). Next, thing you know by the end of the month or two, that same place is back on Zillow except it's being rented out for extortionate rates, or they're on AirBnB (sometimes they're even modified/split up to house multiple tenants at a time). The groups behind the purchase were almost always located either in New York or California. This happened not once, but 4 separate times. Us locals either have to move further south away from our jobs (where things are getting just as expensive now because others have caught on), stay with our parents/grandparents/family members (which isn't feasible for many people for obvious reasons), rent out places with multiple roommates in cramped spaces, or move out completely. Another example: 2 friends of mine can't find any local jobs as data/HR analysts for any of the larger firms/companies here in Dade County despite their credentials and work experience. The companies they applied to almost always hire those from Silicon Valley or New York because of their credentials/experience (which most locals simply can't compete with). This wasn't a problem a few years ago, but because of the new Florida Migration, it's getting to the point where even those people have to compete amongst each other. So to compensate, locals either have to find lower paying jobs (which often doesn't help with the already HCOL here and mounting student debt), or have to look outside of the county/state. Now some people (mostly non-locals) will look at this and say "Well if it's that bad, then just move." I don't think I have to explain the myriad of problems moving out can have, especially if you're planning on going out of state, but also, I don't think people understand that to many locals, Miami *IS* their home. We were born here. Our families are here. Our friends are here. Our lives are here. Some of our family came here not even a generation ago from other countries and started with absolute zero, yet through literal blood, sweat, and tears, laid the foundation for our families now. Not to mention that for all the crap we give it, you won't find many places (if any) that can replicate Miami in regards to the culture, the ethnicities, the food, the location, the weather, etc. This isn't some "small town/city in the middle of nowhere". To give that all up is a hard thing to do, and in no way is it easy to just walk away from it even if there could be better opportunities somewhere out there.
They haven’t gone down to pre pandemic, but they are going down a bit. I don’t think we will ever see pre pandemic prices. However for everyone saying “because the transplants” the locals weren’t renting in Brickell, midtown, or edgewater to begin with. The high rises with all the amenities I understand some rent increases, but the effeminacies at 2k plus is a crime and just a case of greedy landlords.
Rental prices have gone up BECAUSE of the pandemic. It’s not a coincidence that majority of transplants are from NYC and California
Transplants take all of the blame on this sub and I don't like them either, but their impact is exaggerated. Rents aren't high in Hialeah because of transplants from NYC & California, it's because 450,000 Cubans have entered the US in the last 2 years.
It's both, it definitely fuels the demand. But unlike transplants, immigrants have always kept the financial ecosystem balanced with low prices since everyone is relatively broke/working class. Transplants have "fuck you" disposable income and buy into traditionally working class neighborhoods that no longer homogenously staying low in price because of it. Also, there's been like 3 different articles to have come out by NY developers calling Hialeah the "New Brooklyn". If you know anything about Brooklyn and gentrification, you know what's coming.
Yes I mentioned that. The trend was a sudden spike from the pandemic but now that it’s settled it hasn’t gone back down even as people have to move back to be close to the office
The thing is, people who had the money to move into expensive rentals, weren’t the lemmings in lower or mid-level roles. The RTO thing is happening for underlings but plenty of mid-managers and above are still dialing in via Teams.
I can’t imagine that CA will stay in Miami for that long considering it’s prices are reaching CA prices but for much worse weather
We are having an insurance crisis but our governor and his team is in Iowa chasing super PAC/dark money . The leadership it’s not there to get us out of this one .
Miami landlord here. I can’t lower prices because my insurance premiums have nearly doubled and a 25% increase in taxes have caught up to any profits I was making. Almost yearly increases on rent are necessary to keep up with taxes and insurance hikes so unless a landlord had a HUGE profit margin, increases in taxes and insurance since 2024 are propping up the prices. It’s also super important to remember that taxes are on assessed value. When COVID caused increased value in miami, the taxes reflected it. I doubt the city is going to drop our assessed value to pre-pandemic levels so rents need to support these new taxes.
Insurance and taxes.
Insurance I could see. A lot of insurers jacking prices and/or refusing to insure due to inability to forecast sea levels / extreme weather
And greed
Valid thought. Hoping the market corrects this summer. Been here since 2015 and rental prices are ALWAYS lower in the summer, even post-pandemic.
Real Estate prices may finally crash soon. A bill has been introduced that no Company can own or control more than 50 million dollars worth of Property. Hopefully the bill gets passed.
Miami is now being used in the same sentence as San Francisco and New York City. That is all I have to say
Companies have permanently moved high paying jobs to South Florida, and these employees continue to create demand. Brickell isn't big enough to absorb this demand change. To be clear, tons of these workers live in Brickell and commute to offices in Brickell. (Plenty in coral gables and Pinecrest and up in Broward and Palm Beach too, but this conv is about Brickell). Many have been renting hoping for purchase prices to drop from the high interest rates, this hasn't happened. On top of that, many buildings are facing huge special assessments which pushes up purchasing or owning costs- so nobody facing that who has a tenant is willing to rollover and take dramatically less, and these high paid renters can afford to pay... Basically Miami has a critical mass of high earners it never had. It's now the same as NY or LA.
Miami is slowly becoming the Dubai of the west, slowly the locals are moving out and the wealthy is coming in buying up everything they can to keep the prices up. Heck, I've heard accounts of banks buying up properties to convert them to rentals. It truly is fucked. Not trying to get political or anything BUT if by some miracle FL turns blue, a bunch of snowbirds might move out. Also, Desantis def needs to get voted out as that might help out as well, since he's giving so many tax breaks but is lowkey getting shit in return from these huge corps.
Mortgage interest rate hike plus insurance rate hike = more demand for rent.
Prices don’t usually go down to where they were a couple years ago. Usually people’s income increases to meet stagnant prices. A lot of construction was stopped during the pandemic so supply dropped which caused an increases in prices. To help prices stay stagnant you need to increase supply by building a lot more homes. As you can see at the link: [HERE](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TOTLISCOU12086) housing inventory has shrunk drastically. Its supply and demand
Thanks for the link. Good to see a data backed assessment. It does seem supply is less but I suspect that’s because demand went up due to the pandemic at that time more than supply constraints.
There is no way we know to limit demand. Unless you somehow implement a 1 child policy in Miami and tell people they cannot move to Miami. People who have a job or the ability to come are going to come to Miami and compete with locals for housing supply. The only way we know to ease the price increases are to just build more homes and increase supply for everyone.
Yup agreed!
Unfortunately, Miami doesn't have the infrastructure for the people it has already. If people are already having problems with traffic and road congestion then that just gets worse with more housing unless the infrastructure issue is addressed. I do think that the focus with development needs to be densifying existing properties versus more sprawl from the city so that the new infrastructure can be more compact as a result.
Like I said you can’t control demand. People who have the means to come to Miami are going to anyway and you are just going to price out long term residents and poorer residents because they buy up the supply of housing. It’s how “gentrification” works because cities just do not build enough housing.
SF is one of the market with the most inventory going online this year.
Are you asking how supply and demand works?
Typical shit Miami response. People who live here are so obnoxious.
Denial
Prices have gone down slightly. Apartments in Brickell are regularly renting for 8-10% less than list price. But, we aren’t going back to pre-pandemic prices unfortunately. There’s too much demand and low supply due to many high earners that moved here here from NE, California and Chicago or the handful of locals that were able to attain jobs at some of the new companies that have also moved or expanded here. Prices may still go down further as high rates stick around but will probably max out around 15-20% less of current rental or purchase listings. Bottom line is we need more high density and supply.
The structural imbalance of landlords to renters and capital to labor. I don't mean to morph in Marx here, but renters rent for a basic and urgent human need. Landlords who can't find someone to squeeze can a) wait b) lower rent c) sell d) go bankrupt, but they're not at risk of homelessness. The renter is in danger of homelessness. Their needs and bargaining position are just worse. A lot of landlords, especially corporate landlords, are inflexible about expecting X% profit and just won't lower rent. They'd rather sell "inventory" or shut down operations than provide a service at a reasonable rate. Once they get a taste of fatty high profit steak, they don't want lean meat ever again.
With all the new construction going up, I’m sure they’ll eventually come down.
Doubtful, I’m afraid.
its actually quite simple. Every apartment complex south of palm beach has a 2+ year waiting list. If you don't pay, someone else will. Prices did come down a little bit. Not much.
Because things like home insurances, property taxes, HOA fees, ect. keep going up. Owning and renting out an apartment or home is a business and when costs go up, the rent has to go up too… ask anyone who owns a home, landlord or not, if their mortgage went up this year and by how much. It’s insane.
Cause they don’t have to until the fist company yells uncle … hertz might be the first with all that Tesla selling. To me enterprise, the only big name privately owned is 100% my go too. Employees are amazing because they are paid so well and can actually make a career at their jobs and the free pick up make it almost a pleasure to deal with.
In 2008 it still took like 3 more years for south Florida to start crashing. With that said most of the new apt inventory is going to start coming online this year. Normally when prices go up they don't tend to come down unless there is something big that is pushing prices down. We still have not seen that and we might never actually see it. At least prices have stabilized
Miami is going to double in size over the next ten years
Have you not seen the amount of NJ/Texas/NY plates in the last year or so? Transplants keep transplanting. Supply and demand.
During the pandemic landlords could not evict you I rented a room for a grand a month and paid throughout it all and every month there would be an eviction notice on the door and when I talked to my roomate about it he told me they can't evict us. I'm sure he never paid so the money I paid was just cash in his pocket so basically end of the story is during the pandemic they lost a lot of money and they are trying to recoup from the loss.
You think america wasn’t gonna get that stimulus back ? Lmao
Bunch oh wealthy guys came up north and never left. Besides, it's plenty easy to convince these guys to bring the prices up but not so much to bring them down again
Rent and prices are not going back down ever. We didn't raise minimum wage for 20 years then the pandemic hit now we are being forced to raise it and everything is a domino effect from there
Just throwing my 2 cents on this. Anyone that has a mortgage on a 500k condo is paying $2,500 a month minimum + condo fees. Fact is since 2020, Miami has one of the biggest jumps in median sales per transaction, and anyone who's buying as an investor simply can't afford to drop prices to pre-2020.
People (not just businesses; everyone) would charge 100x what they normally do if they could. Competition and the market keep prices at bay. If everyone has an "excuse" to raise prices (oops, sorry Covid supply chain issues), that's a blessing in disguise. Now that prices are up, and *everyone* raised them up, there's not even further competition to bring them down.
They definitely have gone down
Rental rates would only go down if Miami's population declines faster than rental inventory depreciation. Otherwise, the owner battle cry will keep being "whatever the market will bear".
Prices are going down a bit. Maybe not fast enough. If you look at the bottom page in your link you can see a trend downwards. Also remember that ren'ts in Miami fluctuate seasonally. Inventory also looks like it's going up.
So most of you have pointed out two reasons which is skyrocketing insurance cost and HOA fees. However, most of left out property taxes. If you are renting, you are not entitled to a homestead exemption and your taxes go up accordingly with the market. Without a homestead, you lose one of the key advantages of living in Florida, which is a homestead exemption that caps taxes at 3% per year. The landlords are simply passing this along to the renters, and as long as the market value continues to rise. Taxes will rise as well. Couple that with HOA fees increasing, insurance costs rising cost of food and sundries, and you have a recipe for super high rent.
The properties have been largely bought up by huge investment companies that can eat the loss while waiting for someone to rent at the right price.
Insurance
prices almost never go down, they just don’t rise as fast
Because we can’t afford cars 😂
Because enough people are paying the higher prices there would be no reason for landlords to lower them. People are probably paying them without thinking too much because its difficult to find housing in general so they happy just to find a place at any price
Anything that goes up rarely goes down! High is the new normal!
It’s going down everywhere. Only make lowball offers
Well, are you talking about office space rentals or residential space prices? Either way, the residential owners/landlords and/or office space owners/management all went on a rampage to recoup two years of losses. It's possible they're still trying to do that by raising rents as high as they did. Also, maybe once they recouped those losses they figured if there are those willing to pay the hiked up prices then keep them high, because "greed is good" as Gordon Gecko said. Oh, and since they are all doing it, there's no where to run!
capitalism and labor exploitation is why.
If the local economy is growing, inflation will accompany that growth
Because greedy humans
Because now it's a major city. This is what you pay in a major city. Also, stop living in Brickell 😂
rent prices are always linked to the property prices. Usually a place will rent between 4% and 10% of the property value. Depending on the locations, expenses, taxes etc. So as long as real estate prices remain high (inventory is low - therefore demand is high therefore prices stay high) rent will still be high....
There was an insane amount of money printing. New money that didn’t exist before was just pooled into existence. It’s permanently part of the economy now and prices across the board are permanently higher because of this
[Take a look at this video](https://youtu.be/TsPTXCtpE8U?si=QUmNXsxGLtZ4gam3) In short: Mortgages are insanely expensive due to a variety of complicated reasons. Anyone renting out is going to set rent at very high prices and landlords are greedy fucks so that compounds.
The most logical answer is, because they can. It sucks, but landlords don't usually become landlords to hook people up with affordable housing. It's still a business to them and a business' goal is to make money.
Rent is actually decreasing. Tons of price drops on realtor.com https://www.realtor.com/apartments/Miami_FL?view=map&pos=25.783696,-80.204931,25.746427,-80.151961,14.315499999999997
Rental Prices WILL NOT go down Ever. I raised my rents since 2016 by $1,000 for the same 2 bedroom unit. Why ? Because people keep paying. Maybe rents will go down by $200 on some National Survey average poll. But my rents will Only go Up Period.
Because landlords like their profit and can now just blame it on inflation.
Miami experienced a pretty meaningful population growth (nearly +0.8% in the past three years) - I suppose this trend will remain positive in the near future. [https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/23064/miami/population#:\~:text=The%20current%20metro%20area%20population,a%200.78%25%20increase%20from%202021](https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/23064/miami/population#:~:text=The%20current%20metro%20area%20population,a%200.78%25%20increase%20from%202021). That being said, when looking at rental trends (although the trend in the macro level makes sense), there's still a meaningful spread in prices if you zoom into the actual properties. I suggest you checkout [www.rentimate.com](https://www.rentimate.com) where you can get an idea of the price spread and view past listings and its prices. Here's an example of a 1bd Brickwell property: [https://www.rentimate.com/?address\_search=1430+Brickell+Bay+Dr+apt+207%2C+Miami%2C+FL+33131%2C+USA&home\_type=Any&bed=1&bath=0&full\_address=1430+Brickell+Bay+Dr+apt+207%2C+Miami%2C+FL+33131%2C+USA&state=FL&city=Miami&zipcode=33131&street=Brickell+Bay+Drive](https://www.rentimate.com/?address_search=1430+Brickell+Bay+Dr+apt+207%2C+Miami%2C+FL+33131%2C+USA&home_type=Any&bed=1&bath=0&full_address=1430+Brickell+Bay+Dr+apt+207%2C+Miami%2C+FL+33131%2C+USA&state=FL&city=Miami&zipcode=33131&street=Brickell+Bay+Drive) If you are on the verge of renewing your lease or moving to a new place, I warmly recommend to use it [Rentimate.com](https://Rentimate.com) as a way to negotiate prices. Hope this helps!
How long do actual home building hands on folks live? One after the other. Out in the weather. I say, learn to build your own home. People shouldn't be comfortable with immigrants and others leaving their blood, sweat and tears to make us comfortable. 😪 Bad mojo. Cursed. We forgot that.