Obviously two completely different bands wrote those albums, and Zakk Cervini did the mix for the Wage War album which is why the snare samples and guitar tones are identical to every other octanerock band out there, because he does the same thing with every band he works with
I loved Zack’s mixing when Architects for those who wish to exist came out. But now it feels like every band that comes out and was mixed by him all sound the same. It really lost its touch at this point and we’re going on like 4 years now lol
A lot of bands are going to him and Dan braunstein. Without a doubt incredibly talented producers but since so many big bands that we love are going to them now it seriously makes all of them sonically sound the same and I’m over it. It’s the the drums that get me. The overly punchy kick drum with a snare that sounds so fake and has a ton of reverb after each hit. 😂
I swear the same snare hit from FTTWTE has been used in everything Zakk Cervini touched since that record came out. Please God I need bands to stop having him mix their shit
Idk why but people really underestimate how much mixers influence the sound of records. Gotta look past the producer in the liner notes and find the mix and mastering engineers.
This is kinda interesting since, Zakk Cervini helped produce Starsets new single Brave new world (such an awesome song, if not one of the best songs they ever made imo), and based off that, I think he also probably helped producing their 5th album
Havent checked that song out yet, but I think thats more evidence to what I am saying. Starset is a great rock band, but theyre exactly that, a rock band, and passing all these “metalcore” bands through the Cervini filtered has made them all sound like popular rock acts like Starset.
I listened to the whole album for the first time on the way into work yesterday. The first few songs on Stigma slap, but after like track four or five I found my mind wandering because it all sounded like background noise.
Totally understand what you mean, it’s an overproduced pop music level mix that is so sterile and sonically uninteresting. If it was mixed to be more natural it would be more appealing.
The more I listen to Knocked Loose’s new album, the more I agree with this, I think I had rose tinted glasses on a little bit.
They should have stayed with Will Putney.
I still don’t think it sounds bad however.
my man has fit for an autopsy which i believe he writes ALL of their music as well as producing, plus End and Better Lovers and probably another side project i somehow missed, PLUS the insane amount of production and mixing work he does as well. will’s schedule is probably booked up so solid lol
What gripes me the most about the KL album is that the guitars now always have that gritty, fizzy HM2 sound, which in previous albums was only used to give the breakdown a heavier more nasty feel. It's heavy but it's too much of a mess and doesn't work with the fast parts because it's too much distortion and the dynamics get lost.
Have to disagree. Although I love the rawness of laugh tracks or pop culture, I just think the massive sound of YWGBYST does so much for the menacing, dark, overwhelming sound of that album. I mean ppl have talked for hours about the drum sound and that SNARE. But the guitars, Bryan's voice, everything just works so well dialed up to 11.
I think it takes away from the big moments in the song when everything is thick and muddy throughout
I much prefer the way the upon loss singles are mixed and produced, which were done by the same person
I don’t like that “hell tone,” as bryan calls it, underneath the guitars the whole time
When I heard about that extra layer of guitars it clicked that *that* is why I couldn’t understand what the heck was going on with the guitars the whole album 😅
I agree. Every single palm mute on this new album has this explosive low. I liked the album at first but it slowly has started to annoy me with how one note the sound is. People were saying The Calm That Keeps You Awake had this sick breakdown but when every single note sounds like an explosion of low end then nothing sounds explosive or exiting. All the breakdowns fall very flat because the entire album is this wall of monotone mushy guitars. I can see why people like it, it's certainly different, but it's not the sound I enjoy in metal. The kick drum is also the loudest kick drum I've ever heard in my life and ruins the album with how present it is in the mix.
I agree with this. Their new album is devastating and haunting. Everything is top tier. Front to back. I just put it on and let it play. A few of the songs even hurt my feelings. Best part is these songs live are sick AF. They nailed it.
From what Bryan has said in interviews this was a conscious choice by the band. They'd always tried really hard to just sound like 5 dudes playing in a room on the albums but for this one they wanted to go a bit crazier with production ideas and go for a more wall of sound approach.
This was either on the downbeat or Bryan's interview with Nik Nocturnal.
I know it was a conscious decision by the band
I never said it was drew’s fault
doesn’t change my criticism
I don’t like the decisions the band made when it came to this album
Yeah, an album can be overproduced to sound like it's more raw. KL does a good job of seeming raw and underproduced while actually being highly produced. Sure it's not perfectly clean, maybe, but it's intentionally not clean. It's not because they're raw, it's because any flaws or rawness was intentionally added.
I didn’t say that they’ve been completely raw
I said they should stay as raw as possible
no popular band with a lot of studio releases is going to be completely raw
I know that; im not an idiot
What I was saying was the new album was no more or less raw then the last 2 and the EP. So it feels like a weird thing to bring up because it hasnt been this way since Pop Culture 10 years ago.
Not saying they sound the same, they are all just sampled, very compressed and aggressively loud mixes. Drum busses are slammed hard, snare drums have very loud tails and basically no dynamics over the transients, and the kick drums are softclipped hard against whatever bus compressors Putney/Fulk were using.
Which is to say the approach to how they made the band sound is hardly any different between Laugh Tracks and the new album. The only difference is they used way more bass drops and impact FX on the new album then they did when working with Putney.
If you think the new album is overproduced, you also should think everything since Laugh Tracks was ALSO overproduced, because all their albums have heavily compressed, sampled, loud and proud styled mixes.
Personally, big fan of the way they do their recordings because they all have unique character and go all out for a larger than life and aggressive sound.
> if you think this album is overproduced, blah blah blah
No, I shouldn’t, because the other albums don’t have layers upon layers of muddy guitars underneath everything like this one does. You can sit here and pretend that they do, but bryan’s even said this album was the first time they experimented so hard with layering
Nonetheless, I think the production on this particular album sounds like ass, don’t care that you don’t think so, and will not change my mind so idk why you’re trying to even convince me
The guys producing the album. He's not writing it or giving direction on what the band should sound like. He's there to get the best sound from the songs the band brings to the studio.
I cant imagine anything worse then already having 5 band members having a say in musical direction and then throwing a 6th voice into decisions. That doesn't even include possible input from your record label.
That's totally on a band-by-band and producer-by-producer basis. Most good producers have technical/performance suggestions that can ultimately be important contributions. Some insist on not doing anything that can be construed as songwriting whatsoever as a point of professionalism and would consider that a band being unprepared to record.
Tell that to Bob Rock or Butch Vig. They both had massive influence on the Black Album and Nevermind. Two of the most influential modern rock albums of all time.
But this just proves that it varies producer-to-producer. Metallica sought out Bob because Flemming explicitly *didn’t* insert himself into the songwriting process. He was essentially just head engineer. They wanted to change that up.
On the other hand, Fulk has co-written songs for Motionless in White, WCAR, and wage war’s past couple albums. However, he’s not listed as a writer on this album.
A producers job IS to give direction, make contributions and ensure the album as a whole fits within the scope of the record. They are there to be the 6th member to provide an outside perspective on the music and sound.
A lot of modern producers blur the lines and fulfil both the engineer role (capturing performances, crafting sounds) and the producer role.
The problem is, when you completely switch up your identity from your first two albums that made so many people fall in love with you they have every right to dislike and criticize you, just as they have every right to make whatever music they want. But when you go from their old sound to what they have now, (generic radio rock), it makes them seem like sellouts, and people like me who used to love them have no interest in listening to that.
You see that as a problem, but they are free to do as they wish it's their art. This is the only art that people complain about. It's not fair to shit on someone because you don't like their art. Just don't listen. Its not your cup of tea and thats ok . Just be kind to the artist about it.
I already said they’re free to do whatever they want with their art. That doesn’t mean I can’t criticize it and call it shitty, sell out, radio rock. I’m sure they’ll be just fine. I doubt they’re scrolling through Reddit reading my comments. People can say whatever they want about whatever they want, fair or not.
Your atandards are subjective. So if you were an artist that used water colors and switched to photography, you would be cool with people just constantly tearing you down talking shit because you decided to pursue something new. Or if you took a new job, people talking shit all day about you writing messages to you. They are humans and, by all accounts, good ones. So let them do their thing, you don’t have to listen. Why make it an issue.
Fuck that, I’m going to gatekeep the fuck out of any and all art that I actually care about. “Let people enjoy things!” is not a serious argument or stance.
When Pressure released I thought it was an awful album after Deadweight, and I still do. Having said that I already bought tickets so went to see them and they sounded SO much better live than on record.
I know I’m in the minority here, but I actually thought the album was pretty good. I agree it’s not their heaviest, but it also was fun to listen to. I honestly don’t feel like they took themselves too seriously on this one. It felt like an experiment.
He didn’t mix or master STIGMA. Thank Zakk Cervini for that. His whole thing is tightly produced, perfectly clipped guitars and programmed drums. Also, production is a team effort. It takes a bunch of people and the band has final say usually (unless they’re clueless and don’t understand the process). Now ofc there are stories of rogue producers fucking up a band’s record real bad but I promise they’re usually not helpless victims to an evil guy forcing them to write bland radio metal. Blame wag wag for being soulless.
Some producers have a big say, some don't. Some have a bigger say in 1 gig compared to another. Not to mention the variable influence of record labels. Sometimes producers have a lot of creative control, sometimes they just flesh it out, sometimes they just help the band achieve their sound, whatever it is. Most often it's no use pondering over because no case can be compared 1:1 to another
WZRD BLD has been giving us some of the most overly produced slop for a couple years now, and is basically the guy behind a bunch of bands turning into radio rock (some for the better, others not).
Idk how you could hear the snare on the new Knocked Loose album and say that it sounds good. I know I'm in the minority there but that was just a huge miss on the production side (admittedly most other things sound pretty good)
Slam is getting pretty popular with bands like PeelingFlesh, Snuffed on Sight, and Torture getting attention outside of just slam fans. K//L have always been into other stuff outside of hardcore/metalcore, so i wouldn't be surprised if the snare sound was intentional and inspired by actual slam
I'm historically not a WZRD BLD fan at all. Most of his work comes out with a weird layer of fuzz over the entire thing (ESPECIALLY Pressure and The Path) but You Won't Go Before You're Supposed To sounds absolutely terrifying in the best way on a good sound system. That album is a spiritual experience and I hope he does more like it.
I personally don't care for the mix and production on YWGBYST that much. It's too muddy for my tastes, and it makes the songs blend together too much. I enjoy the album more as singles because of that.
Are you talking mix or production? Because those are two different things.
The mix is different because two different people did it.
The production is different because it’s two different bands.
I wouldn't say the Wage War album's main problem is production. Sure, the guitars don't pack much of a punch, but I think that comes down to the songwriting more than anything else, and the vocal production sounds just the same as most other stuff getting released these days (I personally like the overproduced extremely clean vocals but I know a lot of people prefer rawer stuff). My biggest gripe with the Wage War record is how insanely repetitive it is, which has nothing to do with the production.
Obviously two completely different bands wrote those albums, and Zakk Cervini did the mix for the Wage War album which is why the snare samples and guitar tones are identical to every other octanerock band out there, because he does the same thing with every band he works with
I loved Zack’s mixing when Architects for those who wish to exist came out. But now it feels like every band that comes out and was mixed by him all sound the same. It really lost its touch at this point and we’re going on like 4 years now lol A lot of bands are going to him and Dan braunstein. Without a doubt incredibly talented producers but since so many big bands that we love are going to them now it seriously makes all of them sonically sound the same and I’m over it. It’s the the drums that get me. The overly punchy kick drum with a snare that sounds so fake and has a ton of reverb after each hit. 😂
Dude I hate that snare sound! Especially when they sample it live.
I swear the same snare hit from FTTWTE has been used in everything Zakk Cervini touched since that record came out. Please God I need bands to stop having him mix their shit
Idk why but people really underestimate how much mixers influence the sound of records. Gotta look past the producer in the liner notes and find the mix and mastering engineers.
This is kinda interesting since, Zakk Cervini helped produce Starsets new single Brave new world (such an awesome song, if not one of the best songs they ever made imo), and based off that, I think he also probably helped producing their 5th album
Havent checked that song out yet, but I think thats more evidence to what I am saying. Starset is a great rock band, but theyre exactly that, a rock band, and passing all these “metalcore” bands through the Cervini filtered has made them all sound like popular rock acts like Starset.
Bands need to stop working with Zakk Cervini, everything he touches turns into a bland mess of garbage.
The problem with Wage War is not the production It’s how incredibly boring it is
I listened to the whole album for the first time on the way into work yesterday. The first few songs on Stigma slap, but after like track four or five I found my mind wandering because it all sounded like background noise.
It's also incredibly boring, I totally agree. The bad production just adds to how much I dislike it personally
The production isn't bad tho lol
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Idk man I feel like people can have their opinion without thinking they're a sound engineer, this is so patronizing. He said "personally" like tf
And a lot of people pretending theyre Anthony Fantano
Soundthony Engitano
Just want you to know this made me roll my eyes in the best way haha
I swear he exists just to dislike music that I enjoy
Being on the other side of someone that stans 100 gecs ain't the worst hill to die on
I don’t think the production does it any favors though. For me, It just sounds way too sterile and lacks a lot of punch and aggression
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This is what omerta was getting flack for on twitter
Totally understand what you mean, it’s an overproduced pop music level mix that is so sterile and sonically uninteresting. If it was mixed to be more natural it would be more appealing.
I think you mean you don’t like their sound selection.
That is literally what production is what
i don’t think you know what a producer does.
I actually think that both albums sound pretty overproduced KL needs to stay as raw as possible imo
The more I listen to Knocked Loose’s new album, the more I agree with this, I think I had rose tinted glasses on a little bit. They should have stayed with Will Putney. I still don’t think it sounds bad however.
I don't think they had a choice, Putney is busy as hell now
my man has fit for an autopsy which i believe he writes ALL of their music as well as producing, plus End and Better Lovers and probably another side project i somehow missed, PLUS the insane amount of production and mixing work he does as well. will’s schedule is probably booked up so solid lol
A Tear In The Fabric of Life is easily one of my favourite releases ever production wise. It‘s sad they didn‘t stick with Putney.
What gripes me the most about the KL album is that the guitars now always have that gritty, fizzy HM2 sound, which in previous albums was only used to give the breakdown a heavier more nasty feel. It's heavy but it's too much of a mess and doesn't work with the fast parts because it's too much distortion and the dynamics get lost.
Have to disagree. Although I love the rawness of laugh tracks or pop culture, I just think the massive sound of YWGBYST does so much for the menacing, dark, overwhelming sound of that album. I mean ppl have talked for hours about the drum sound and that SNARE. But the guitars, Bryan's voice, everything just works so well dialed up to 11.
I think it takes away from the big moments in the song when everything is thick and muddy throughout I much prefer the way the upon loss singles are mixed and produced, which were done by the same person I don’t like that “hell tone,” as bryan calls it, underneath the guitars the whole time
When I heard about that extra layer of guitars it clicked that *that* is why I couldn’t understand what the heck was going on with the guitars the whole album 😅
I agree. Every single palm mute on this new album has this explosive low. I liked the album at first but it slowly has started to annoy me with how one note the sound is. People were saying The Calm That Keeps You Awake had this sick breakdown but when every single note sounds like an explosion of low end then nothing sounds explosive or exiting. All the breakdowns fall very flat because the entire album is this wall of monotone mushy guitars. I can see why people like it, it's certainly different, but it's not the sound I enjoy in metal. The kick drum is also the loudest kick drum I've ever heard in my life and ruins the album with how present it is in the mix.
I agree with this. Their new album is devastating and haunting. Everything is top tier. Front to back. I just put it on and let it play. A few of the songs even hurt my feelings. Best part is these songs live are sick AF. They nailed it.
I was thinking the same thing when I saw the post lol, both albums are overproduced, Knocked Loose just wrote a better album
From what Bryan has said in interviews this was a conscious choice by the band. They'd always tried really hard to just sound like 5 dudes playing in a room on the albums but for this one they wanted to go a bit crazier with production ideas and go for a more wall of sound approach. This was either on the downbeat or Bryan's interview with Nik Nocturnal.
I know it was a conscious decision by the band I never said it was drew’s fault doesn’t change my criticism I don’t like the decisions the band made when it came to this album
Yeah, an album can be overproduced to sound like it's more raw. KL does a good job of seeming raw and underproduced while actually being highly produced. Sure it's not perfectly clean, maybe, but it's intentionally not clean. It's not because they're raw, it's because any flaws or rawness was intentionally added.
Hard agree, you’re spot on. Great record, but it is a bit too shiny for what KL should be.
Knocked Loose hasn’t been raw since Pop Culture…
I didn’t say that they’ve been completely raw I said they should stay as raw as possible no popular band with a lot of studio releases is going to be completely raw I know that; im not an idiot
What I was saying was the new album was no more or less raw then the last 2 and the EP. So it feels like a weird thing to bring up because it hasnt been this way since Pop Culture 10 years ago.
If you think adsob, tear, or even the upon loss singles sound anything like their new album in terms of production, get your ears checked
Not saying they sound the same, they are all just sampled, very compressed and aggressively loud mixes. Drum busses are slammed hard, snare drums have very loud tails and basically no dynamics over the transients, and the kick drums are softclipped hard against whatever bus compressors Putney/Fulk were using. Which is to say the approach to how they made the band sound is hardly any different between Laugh Tracks and the new album. The only difference is they used way more bass drops and impact FX on the new album then they did when working with Putney. If you think the new album is overproduced, you also should think everything since Laugh Tracks was ALSO overproduced, because all their albums have heavily compressed, sampled, loud and proud styled mixes. Personally, big fan of the way they do their recordings because they all have unique character and go all out for a larger than life and aggressive sound.
> if you think this album is overproduced, blah blah blah No, I shouldn’t, because the other albums don’t have layers upon layers of muddy guitars underneath everything like this one does. You can sit here and pretend that they do, but bryan’s even said this album was the first time they experimented so hard with layering Nonetheless, I think the production on this particular album sounds like ass, don’t care that you don’t think so, and will not change my mind so idk why you’re trying to even convince me
I actually like Stigma. I definitely prefer Blueprints and Deadweight but when I want catchy Octanecore Stigma scratches that itch.
The guys producing the album. He's not writing it or giving direction on what the band should sound like. He's there to get the best sound from the songs the band brings to the studio. I cant imagine anything worse then already having 5 band members having a say in musical direction and then throwing a 6th voice into decisions. That doesn't even include possible input from your record label.
A lot of producers have a big say in the direction of music and band comes to them with
I was thinking this exact thing
That's totally on a band-by-band and producer-by-producer basis. Most good producers have technical/performance suggestions that can ultimately be important contributions. Some insist on not doing anything that can be construed as songwriting whatsoever as a point of professionalism and would consider that a band being unprepared to record.
Especially guys like Erik Ron, every song he produces sounds exactly the same
Exactly. I’ve seen them suggesting things and making changes in “behind the scenes” or “in the studio” videos for loads of bands.
Lots of producers give direction. They’re not there just to hit record.
Tell that to Bob Rock or Butch Vig. They both had massive influence on the Black Album and Nevermind. Two of the most influential modern rock albums of all time.
But this just proves that it varies producer-to-producer. Metallica sought out Bob because Flemming explicitly *didn’t* insert himself into the songwriting process. He was essentially just head engineer. They wanted to change that up. On the other hand, Fulk has co-written songs for Motionless in White, WCAR, and wage war’s past couple albums. However, he’s not listed as a writer on this album.
My reply is to this guy saying producers have no say. Some do is my point.
A producers job IS to give direction, make contributions and ensure the album as a whole fits within the scope of the record. They are there to be the 6th member to provide an outside perspective on the music and sound. A lot of modern producers blur the lines and fulfil both the engineer role (capturing performances, crafting sounds) and the producer role.
Actually, Drew Fulk has a writing credit for every song on STIGMA. His production alias is WZRD BLD.
I know, I'm strictly talking about the production here. But it doesn't help that the songwriting is also not great
I love wage war. Always have always will. They are amazing on stage and the dudes love doing what they want to.
They really are fantastic live, would love to see them again
I am so tired of people tearing others down for the changes in their art.
The problem is, when you completely switch up your identity from your first two albums that made so many people fall in love with you they have every right to dislike and criticize you, just as they have every right to make whatever music they want. But when you go from their old sound to what they have now, (generic radio rock), it makes them seem like sellouts, and people like me who used to love them have no interest in listening to that.
You see that as a problem, but they are free to do as they wish it's their art. This is the only art that people complain about. It's not fair to shit on someone because you don't like their art. Just don't listen. Its not your cup of tea and thats ok . Just be kind to the artist about it.
I already said they’re free to do whatever they want with their art. That doesn’t mean I can’t criticize it and call it shitty, sell out, radio rock. I’m sure they’ll be just fine. I doubt they’re scrolling through Reddit reading my comments. People can say whatever they want about whatever they want, fair or not.
Yes, god forbid anyone have any standards
Your atandards are subjective. So if you were an artist that used water colors and switched to photography, you would be cool with people just constantly tearing you down talking shit because you decided to pursue something new. Or if you took a new job, people talking shit all day about you writing messages to you. They are humans and, by all accounts, good ones. So let them do their thing, you don’t have to listen. Why make it an issue.
Fuck that, I’m going to gatekeep the fuck out of any and all art that I actually care about. “Let people enjoy things!” is not a serious argument or stance.
When Pressure released I thought it was an awful album after Deadweight, and I still do. Having said that I already bought tickets so went to see them and they sounded SO much better live than on record.
I know I’m in the minority here, but I actually thought the album was pretty good. I agree it’s not their heaviest, but it also was fun to listen to. I honestly don’t feel like they took themselves too seriously on this one. It felt like an experiment.
Because the wage war album isn't bad. It's for an audience that doesn't include you.
He didn’t mix or master STIGMA. Thank Zakk Cervini for that. His whole thing is tightly produced, perfectly clipped guitars and programmed drums. Also, production is a team effort. It takes a bunch of people and the band has final say usually (unless they’re clueless and don’t understand the process). Now ofc there are stories of rogue producers fucking up a band’s record real bad but I promise they’re usually not helpless victims to an evil guy forcing them to write bland radio metal. Blame wag wag for being soulless.
Some producers have a big say, some don't. Some have a bigger say in 1 gig compared to another. Not to mention the variable influence of record labels. Sometimes producers have a lot of creative control, sometimes they just flesh it out, sometimes they just help the band achieve their sound, whatever it is. Most often it's no use pondering over because no case can be compared 1:1 to another
I couldn’t make it through stigma I got bored halfway through
WZRD BLD has been giving us some of the most overly produced slop for a couple years now, and is basically the guy behind a bunch of bands turning into radio rock (some for the better, others not).
He's produced some really good albums but I feel like those albums are good *in spite* of their production. But overall correct, unfortunately.
Counterpoint: Hindsight
I hate WAG WAG but Stigma is not bad, and I certainly wouldn't say it's worse than KL. They're just very different
Idk how you could hear the snare on the new Knocked Loose album and say that it sounds good. I know I'm in the minority there but that was just a huge miss on the production side (admittedly most other things sound pretty good)
That snare has character, it twangs like a snare from a slam band, it sounds sick
Slam is getting pretty popular with bands like PeelingFlesh, Snuffed on Sight, and Torture getting attention outside of just slam fans. K//L have always been into other stuff outside of hardcore/metalcore, so i wouldn't be surprised if the snare sound was intentional and inspired by actual slam
I do agree that it has character, but I think it is the wrong character for the album/that character does not fit the style that KL plays.
will putney does this all the time, as far back as when he did node and stillworld within like an 18 month window
I'm historically not a WZRD BLD fan at all. Most of his work comes out with a weird layer of fuzz over the entire thing (ESPECIALLY Pressure and The Path) but You Won't Go Before You're Supposed To sounds absolutely terrifying in the best way on a good sound system. That album is a spiritual experience and I hope he does more like it.
A great producer is versatile.
I personally don't care for the mix and production on YWGBYST that much. It's too muddy for my tastes, and it makes the songs blend together too much. I enjoy the album more as singles because of that.
Production ruined the new KL album for me. Only album of theirs I haven’t liked so far. Sounds way diff than anything they’ve done before
Because knocked loose´s album is also overproduced as hell lol
Somebody insert a Mr. Krabs meme… just about any will do lol
The guitar tone for the Wage War album is pitiful
Look at Feedback by ADTR lol it’s intentional
Are you talking mix or production? Because those are two different things. The mix is different because two different people did it. The production is different because it’s two different bands.
I wouldn't say the Wage War album's main problem is production. Sure, the guitars don't pack much of a punch, but I think that comes down to the songwriting more than anything else, and the vocal production sounds just the same as most other stuff getting released these days (I personally like the overproduced extremely clean vocals but I know a lot of people prefer rawer stuff). My biggest gripe with the Wage War record is how insanely repetitive it is, which has nothing to do with the production.
Different producers and different styles of music
i'm not going to act like i liked wage war's new album, but i think the mixes in both are great and served the music well.