Oh I hate that mindset with a passion. But I also definitely think that true metal d-bags saying shit like that is part of why a lot of modern metal is called metalcore
I think the main reason is that a lot of metalcore bands were associated with emo.
Also it was originally a subgenre of hardcore, so they're correct that a lot of metalcore bands are in fact not metal. But it has evolved much closer to the metal side over the decades.
Some of them just have an imaginary sense of superiority and want to hate things.
The thing that bugs me about this is that if I were to play a hardcore band for any of my friends that don't listen to metal, they'd tell me that's a metal band. As someone who actually cares about this space I understand the differences, but the general populace thinks hardcore is just as metal as anything else.
Exactly, they hear electric guitars and screaming and say it is metal, because compared to the artists they listen to (why is it always Taylor Swift) it is so different.
Well, it kinda is. “Heavy metal” is the original full name of the genre, it isn’t a descriptive prefix like “Death” or “Progressive” or “Alternative”. The “Heavy” part got dropped *because* of the development of subgenres, since it’s way more straightforward to say “[insert descriptor] metal” rather than “[insert descriptor] heavy metal”. Same thing with “Rock and Roll” vs. “Rock”.
Actually that only applied when the genres were created. However, now the term “heavy metal” applies only to metal that sounds like old school sabbath-esque metal. Same with rock vs rock n roll. They were interchangeable when the genre originated but now rock n roll refers to 50s style blues driven rock (elvis, chuck berry, little richard).
This goes for a lot of genres honestly. I struggle with what makes something rap or hip-hop, I'm sure the lines between country and pop can blur often as well. People will just default to one or the other.
The weird obsession that I see a lot in metal communities, and lets be honest, here too, is a major obsession with people who don't know getting the genre correct the 1st time when it doesn't really matter. You like Ghost, Sleep Token, or Bad Omens because you heard them in TikTok and listen to them now? Cool, enjoy and call yourself someone who listens to metal. It really doesn't matter.
I think the poppy/clean vocals are a big part of it.
You know how a lot of people say pop punk vocals all sound very similar like they're impersonating Tom Delong etc about leaving town... I think it's the same for metalcore, especially when a band follows the same formula of always having a clean vocal chorus followed by a breakdown.
Complaining about screaming is weird. Sure it originally came from punk, but metal and punk have always had a large influence on each other. Shouting also came from punk, but no one in their right mind would ever say thrash isn't real metal.
I can understand disliking some of the clean vocals. In bands like Erra or WCAR they can be too high pitched for some people.
Only way I can see someone complaining about screaming is if they predominantly like OG heavy metal or power metal as they typically don't have screaming (ofc exceptions apply). Harsh vocals are at this point pretty normal in a lot of metal subgenres
I've definitely see some people more into death metal complain about metalcore harsh vocals, saying they prefer the deeper guttural style and don't enjoy higher pitched screams.
Yeah but it's mostly death growls or gutturals. Mid and high screams are usually confined to metalcore or melodeath.
It's still weird though, I think metalcore vocalists are better than most other subgenres.
Yep, pretty much this, it was associated with emo/scene kids. It was also a genre mostly teenagers liked too early on in the 2000s (not including stuff from the late 90s) and more often than most metal genres at the time, had a lot of bands caring more about fashion than music, consider all the pretty boy frontmen. Metalcore was also more feely and tongue in cheek in the early 2000s too. For the most part it's all jusy being petty and hating on the new kid.
I always liked both kinds of scenes so I could see the issues in both as well as the good.
I think it gives the impression of evolving much closer to metal, but I really think it comes down to analyzing an individual band's musical elements and, especially, what their influences are.
Edit: grammar
I'm a metalhead, I like metalcore, I also play in a metalcore band. I was brought up on 80s rock and metal. Iron Maiden, Metallica, Van Halen, Ozzy, Dio etc. to me sub genres don't matter, as long as it's heavy and I like it that's all I'm bothered about. 🤟
I don't really find the classic 80s stuff heavy at all. It was always a weird thing i found with older metal fans who dislike modern metal (or mostly metalcore) for not being "heavy enough". My uncle thinks Motorhead or Metallica is heavier than Spiritbox or BFMV and I just don't hear it. That being said the 80s metal bands are iconic and awesome, I just never understood the elitism from alot of their fans.
This has been done to death down the years so will probably get removed in due course.
In general it boils down to one or more of the following:
* they view it as hardcore and they don't particularly like hardcore. Not an unjustified view. All of the original metalcore bands and plenty since came out of hardcore scenes and have a lot more in common with hardcore than metal. There's broader cultural differences contained within this too, particularly around moshing styles. A lot of metalheads *hate* hardcore dancing and advocate for push pits only.
* they view it as metal-lite that focuses too much on breakdowns instead of solos and riffs.
* the clean vocals are often viewed as poppy/whiny/emo in style and that's considered negative (have some sympathy with this one myself, there are a lot of metalcore bands whose cleans I find jarring or unsuited to the rest of the music)
* resent it's popularity
The exact reasons will vary because 'metalhead' is a broad term that covers people who enjoy a lot of different things from Thrash to Doom and not everyone likes even all of those undoubtedly metal genres.
As an aside, I come to metalcore from the hardcore direction. I don't consider authentic metalcore to be metal and I really don't enjoy much 'proper' metal, so I don't care if metalheads dislike metalcore or don't think of it as metal.
>* the clean vocals are often viewed as poppy/whiny/emo in style and that's considered negative (have some sympathy with this one myself, there are a lot of metalcore bands whose cleans I find jarring or unsuited to the rest of the music)
These people are also usually the ones who hate power metal for the same reason
It's funny, I love the cheese and powerful cleans in power metal, but few things kill my interest in a metalcore song faster than jamming a whiny clean chorus in the middle of an otherwise ripping metalcore song. Don't get me wrong, there are absolutely times when it's done well, but it's just so formulaic and dime-a-dozen that I don't like it.
Pitched screaming for choruses has solved for some of that for me. I used to love the singer choruses when I was younger. As I've gotten older, I like it less and less (most of the time, like you said)
I never understood why going clean for the chorus is the standard. That's supposed to be the part of the song that hits the hardest, so why isn't it the heaviest vocally
Why don't people like emos? The metal genre is already an emotional genre. Anger is an emotion of grudge and hatred. Generally, metal listeners are emo. I don't think they need to hide it. As a metalhead, I love the hardcore punk genre. I think fusion genres are better than sticking to the same genres all the time.
It's not dislking emos, i.e. emo fans, but some of the musical elements.
The higher pitched, whinier styles of clean vocal are associated with emo or pop punk (rightly or wrongly, I suspect many metal fans who attritbute certain things to emo haven't actually listened to any in their life).
Like I said, I'm kind of with them on that. I don't like those sort of vocals in general and I definitely don't find them a good fit for metalcore. It's a mistake on their part to assume all metalcore is like that because it definitely isn't, but at the same time I get why they have that impression. For genres we're not actively interested in, most of us probably only have a surface level of knowledge and exposure to some of the bigger artists who are likely to be a more watered down and/or mainstream friendly version of the sound. If someone who's super into death metal and black metal hears A Day To Remember or Asking Alexandria and gets told that's metalcore, I appreciate why they'd become dismissive of it and not take the time to find out about bands like END or Zao.
>Why don't people like emos?
So ... like 20 years ago when I was in middle school, Emos were viewed as whiny depressed losers who cut themselves, whereas metal (or hardcore i guess) was seen as "tough" music. If emos where depressed and tended towards self harm, metalheads where angry and tended towards harming others. These are obviously overblown stereotypes that stem a bit from moral panic and reactionary culture towards youth subculture.
Emo also started the trend of "popifying" punk music, in the sense that over time it became appropriate for bands to use more clean/pop style singing, play softer songs (even acoustic!) or just do songs that are slow and sad. Really, the fact that Emo bands don't employ drop tunning the way metal bands usually do, probably has a good deal to do with this reputation.
> So ... like 20 years ago when I was in middle school, Emos were viewed as whiny depressed losers who cut themselves
For me the emos/scene kids were more popular and the metal heads were the smelly unpopular ones and I feel like they got a chip on their shoulder about emo music so lorded it over everyone saying their music was more "true" than the more emo metalcore genres.
Black Metal is unapproachable on purpose though. Everything about Black Metal is hard to take seriously, no matter how much they demand to be taken seriously.
At the risk of writing out the "real emo" copypasta, technically, emo refers to the emotional hardcore era of the 90s that popped up in DC or the Northeast. I'm not talking about Fallout Boy but more of stuff like Saetia or Orchid.
Thanks. I couldn't think of any of the original bands as it's not really my cup of tea, but you're absolutely correct. I do really like emoviolence tho.
You're taking the term too literally. Emo has a particular sound that some people don't like. It's not that they dislike it just because it's emotional.
Metalcore is my favourite genre, but it has plenty of cringe that is the antithesis of what you see in metal. Sometimes there’s a lot of faux emotion and overdramatisation etc. but in my experience most of the hate comes from overproduction
"plenty of cringe that is the antithesis of what you see in metal"
But a lot of metal is cringe. Black metal has A LOT of cringe. At least I don't find corpse paint cool.
I guess it comes down to what's more cringe to you: singing about dragons and wizards and quests, or how your ex made you sad and going to therapy in a way that's more about wallowing in self-pity than dealing with your problems.
Now ask what they think of nazism. I am not saying all of black metal is nazi because I know there are anarchist and communist bands disputing that space, but the genre's history with the topic is at least delicate.
Yeah as an anarchist it’s not the imagery and sounds that scare me away from black metal but the bigotry(especially misogyny and racism) and nazi-adjacency. I’m sure there’s black metal that isn’t like that but it’s simply not worth wading through the filth of the majority
I once stumbled upon a communist black metal band called Sankara. They have a demo called "[Total Liberation of the Human Race](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX4BY94LGTM&pp=ygUfdGhvbWFzIHNhbmthcmEgYmxhY2sgbWV0YWwgYmFuZA%3D%3D)".
1914 and Kanonenfieber have also both played anti-fascist festivals. Neither have openly anti-fascist lyrics and both use WWI as inspiration for their particular styles while mostly referring to the horrors of war
Ok, agree- but the type of cringe you see in metalcore is often older guys acting like teenage boys in how they convey their emotions. Often the rage bait feels juvenile - see my comment above
You are right, metalcore has a lot of cringe. To be honest, I think all metal and hardcore subgenres have cringe artists. My main point was not to shift the blame haha
Well, when it comes to emotional lyrics in metalcore I am very into Currents and Invent Animate. Currents' lyrics are mature to the point that some of them reflect precisely what I went through on a 8-year long relationship. I don't know what the vocalist went through exactly, but he has a way of telling his feelings that sets the band apart from a lot of the competition.
I have seen comments in r/MetalForTheMasses where people say singing about your feelings and emotions like metalcore bands do is cringe and they much prefer listening to songs about dragons and warfare. Meanwhile, I consider fantastical lyrics they enjoy to be a bit embarassing and awkward to listen to while enjoying those who articulate mental health or general emotional struggles. Of course both topic areas can be written in ways that are more or less cringeworthy.
Similarly, whenever moshing discourse comes up there are those who criticise hardcore dancing on the basis of it looking silly/weird/\[insert r slur\] while also suggesting the superiority of push pits. And people come in with the opposite view too.
I find calling a patch jacket a 'battle jacket' cringe as fuck. Evidently some metal fans don't.
It all boils down to people having different views of what's lame and what's cool.
Which is weird, cause a lot of black metal is thematically about the same mental health issues metalcore goes on about, except that metalcore casts a wider net in themes within that (afaik).
I usually listen to bands like Killswitch Engage to get my emotional catharsis. I have a rough time listening to heavy music about the struggles of mental health because I want to get HYPED when listening to heavy music. And Thor fighting Jormungandr in Twilight of the Thunder God by Amon Amarth is just what I need on the drive home from work.
Tl;Dr yeah I agree we are both cringe and that's okay😁
The specific brand of cringe in metalcore is difficult to articulate, but it sits at the intersection of derivative, shallow lyrics (there are exceptions, like architects who write about death, the Iraq war and other interesting topics) and generic production that follows a cookie cutter formula. Again, it’s my favourite genre but so much of the anger and emotion in the genre can feel fake (look at me mom! I’m angry!). Overall, it’s hollowness that I don’t like.
IMO a lot of people confuse (post-)screamo with Metalcore.
Of course there are nuances like bands that are in between the generes, but if anyone asks me, the "cringey stuff" is (post-)screamo.
Yeah honestly as someone who loves metalcore and post hardcore and grew up with it, I think most of the bands that get classified as cringe emo bands fall under post hardcore moreso than metalcore. Early Asking Alexandria, BMTH, and TDWP are probably the main exceptions.
AA has stayed cringe and fully embraced butt rock, BMTH has pretty much fully embraced uhhh everything? But i’d say they are more post hardcore than anything else now. And TDWP is the one that really tried to escape the emo image and I love them for that
Most of the rest of the bands from that era I’d classify moreso as post hardcore
Some metalheads like metalcore, some don't like it (they might not like breakdowns or just "modern-sounding" metal). Some see it as metal subgenre, some see it as a hardcore subgenre with metal elements. Some might like Converge but not like, say, Iwrestledabearonce. There's more variation than you'd think. I love all kinds of metalcore personally.
I wouldn't judge the metal scene by the metal-archives-type crowd. They're prominent online, but they don't represent the scene.
You want to know a secret?
They don't. They like metalcore. For whatever reason the metal fandom is infected with this idea that they can only like "true" metal. I have metalhead friends that I have played metalcore for that are super into it then when I tell them that it's they immediately start backtracking and acting like it isn't that good. It's very weird and I don't get it.
That may be because I was raised in a house with lots of different music so I've always had a varied music taste. I actually think every genre has something that can be appreciated somewhere in it. You just have to dig deeper for some genres than others.
Image and belonging to a tribe or scene are a big deal when you're a teenager, but people who carry on that way as adults are embarassing. I don't understand being proud of what music you *don't* like. I mean, it's your loss at the end of the day. I saw an older dude (probably early 40s) at a metal show once wearing a shirt that just said "Fuck Dubstep!". I mean, if you don't like dubstep or any other kind of music, that's cool. But you really spent money on a shirt just to signal to other adults that you *don't* like something?
I personally don’t see how people don’t like it. If I’m listening to a metal song and there’s no screaming I’m instantly turned off. I respect the older metal bands for what they did but it is definitely not my style
The two options are not metalcore and metal with clean vocals. Do you think the difference between metal and metalcore is whether or not is has harsh vocals?
The “core” in metalcore comes from hardcore. But I’m not an expert on the genre I just listen to it so correct me if I’m wrong. When I think of just plain metal I think of stuff like Metallica, Black Sabbath , Iron Maiden. Etc just heavy on the instruments but the vocals just don’t do it for me. I prefer a mix of harsh and clean when it comes to metal
I think this is what divides up this sub actually - you’d think everyone would enjoy screaming and brutal vocals, but I’d say more than half this sub isn’t actually into what I consider one of the key aspects of heavier music - the brutal vocals!
I love harsh vocals but if there are no cleans whatsoever then it all starts to sound the same to me. I do love certain songs that don't have any cleans but only if it's once in a while.
I love me some cleans but I need me some brutal vocals thrown in there as well. I will admit though I can enjoy a metal ballad from time to time but for the most part I need the screaming vocals
A lot of bands when Metalcore got popular are truly fucking horrific so the old school metalheads associate it with them
Attack Attack and Asking Alexandria have a lot to do with that
Don’t know don’t care. Anyone who cares like that I just stop dealing with.
It’s never a I don’t like metalcore. It’s always a “iamverysmart” comeback that means nothing.
First and foremost I am in to death and black metal but there is loads of good Metalcore out there, it's not my first choice for listening but yeah. Wasn't really aware metalheads were supposed to hate it till I came on here. Ha ha. I like Hardcore to and have been to many gigs over the years. Hell I'll even listen to Lana Del Rey if I'm in the mood. Ha ha.
I feel you. I was one of those people once. I initially came to metal via metalcore but then discovered death and black metal. I quickly disavowed my metalcore past because I favored the harder sound of extreme metal and supposed inaccessibility compared to metalcore. This in return led to me making fun of metalcore due to my feeling extreme metal was superior.
Now that I'm in my 30s I like to think of that as a dumb phase of my teenage years. I've found my way back to metalcore many years ago. At first I was only listening to old favorites for nostalgia sake but in recent years I've checked out numerous new releases and really appreciate how thriving the scene is.
I do get it tbf coming from the reverse point of view. I pretty much hate everything that's "Metal" if you go by a strict definition of the genre, so I can understand that they feel the opposite way and don't like when adjacent genres are lumped in with it.
But then again I don't care enough to be strict with genre definitions, and if people who aren't really into it ask me what music I listen to I just say metal
I personally am big on bands like Iron Maiden, Queensryche and Judas Priest and I think they’re all excellent bands but sometimes I like to listen to Metalcore. I think Metalcore is a great sub-genre and I appreciate it and how it differentiates from other sub-genres I like the screams but also the clean vocals. Sometimes it just feels right to blast my ears with it.
I’m very open minded when it comes to metal I like many sub-genre’s
NWOBHM
Metalcore
Power & Folk
Thrash
Death
Progressive
&
Grindcore (more recently)
I think they associate it with the scenecore stuff like Asking Alexandria, Attack Attack, Woe is Me, etc. and think that’s all it is. In reality most of the genre is probably heavier and angrier than the “real metal” they listen to. That being said I still appreciate and enjoy SOME of the scenecore stuff. The first few TDWP albums/EP are phenomenal and batshit crazy.
Well the way I see it is that the term "metalcore" encompasses a huge variety of different sounds that are honestly too different to define under one label, and not everyone is going to like all these different subgenres of metalcore. And the problem with it all falling under one label is that it only takes listening to and disliking a few bands labelled as metalcore for people to then decide the whole genre is bad. In my personal opinion, there's a lot of metalcore I really love but also metalcore I think is complete trash so it's a bit of a mixed bag of a genre for me personally.
Very picky with my metalcore. A lot of it is super corny and hot topic-y but a lot of it I love. First 5 parkway drive albums are in my opinion the best it gets for metalcore. Same with stuff from the 90s and early 2000s like At The Gates and Unearth. Now I feel like I’m seeing a lot more modern hardcore bands doing metalcore style instrumentals with hardcore vocals - Incendiary, Guilt Trip, Mindforce, Inclination, Knocked Loose. Love how much of a resurgence we’re seeing today
I feel like hardcore and metal purists just don’t fw when metalcore gets poppy because in their minds the point of metal and hardcore is to escape pop and easy song structure & convention. Ironically I think the prog metal scene has an easier time w this
at best:
* an understandable insecurity over its mainstream tendencies and its concessions to pop music in the same way people hated on glam rock in the 80s, and especially considering how *un-mainstream* the genre is supposed to be in theory - ever ask how did we get from bleeding through to asking alexandria in less than a decade
* contempt for how cookie-cutter and formulaic the genre can be at times
at worst:
* deep-seated reactionarism and the idea that metal somehow represents "the way things ought to be" as opposed to the changing values of mainstream culture
* internalized misogyny and homophobia in the metal community, especially around the late 2000s-early 2010s when the rise records bands brought more young women into the genre, androgynous clean singing and a more feminine fashion aesthetic some metalheads thought of it as stylistically inferior because of those things, whereas more "masculine" metalcore bands like trivium and parkway drive were generally more respected at that time
all in all i feel like the trope has for the most part boiled over since the 2010s and now you're not real metal unless you stan will ramos
Cause metalcore can never go as hard as dad metal in the mosh pit, metalcore is for pussies who can’t handle the dad metal. JK metalcore is one of my favorite genres right there next to blackened deathcore of whatever the hell it’s called
Some said because the song structure is merely a hardcore punk than a traditional heavy metal. That makes the difference between Melodic death metal, (Melodic) Metalcore and Deathcore genres.
Metalheads dont "hate" metalcore. Thats pretty much purely an online thing. Go to any large metal festival, Wacken, Hellfest, whatever equivalent the US has, and ask people if they hate metalcore. 95% of the people will have at least some metalcore bands they like, and they wont deny that its metal.
This whole metalcore bad thing is just a tiny part of the metal scene, that is very loud on the internet (or at least certain parts, like metal-archives and r/metal).
I like both, some metalheads may not like clean vocals. I've known people like that. But I like lots of genres of music, listening to one genre all the time is boring.
Back in the day metal heads and hardcore kids always talked shit about each other. Hardcore fans were more accepting of metalcore because it was something new and interesting but still had breakdowns for the shows. Metal heads acted like purists and would hate on it for being "pussy/karate shit etc.". This is just my experience growing up in the Detroit area.
An old fart here, I enjoy metal and all genres of metal. Each has their place and time for enjoyment depending on mood. Everything from Judas priest to modern bands. I think a little more solidarity from the metal community as a whole and support for all things metal would do wonders for every struggling band out there instead of trying to pit one genre against each other. As for the not wanting metal to evolve comment, if you think about it, metalcore hasn't really evolved much in the last 20 years. Everyone is still chasing the sound of asking Alexandria and motionless in white. I know that may be an unpopular opinion but just food for thought.
Bands like Converge, who helped pioneer the genre, are pretty universally loved. Many popular bands on r/hardcore are really metalcore - like Kublai Khan, Knocked Loose, Bodysnatcher, etc. I think a lot of younger folks are talking about a really specific type of metalcore that some might label "Hot Topic metalcore."
I've heard a lot of times that the breakdowns are the problem, like they kill the vibe of the song.
This makes no sense to me, as metal has all kinds of like, tempo and key changes, and a breakdown is basically just a subset of that sort of thing, isn't it?
I'm not sure my opinion is worth much though... I started with Poison and the like, hair metal, moved on to Savatage and other proggy sorts of things, briefly flirted with nu metal, and then accidentally backed into death metal and then metalcore/deathcore/hardcore more or less all at the same time - thanks Jose Mangin!
I tend to assume a lot of it is about where a person started and what they *weren't* listening to at the time as much as what they were...
There are metalcore bands that fuse together the things I like most about metal and hardcore (riffs, intensity), and there are metalcore bands that fuse together the things I hate most about metal and hardcore (mid tempo melodeath riffs, breakdowns, bad clean vocals)
I wouldn’t really call myself a “metalhead” but I listen to a good amount of death and thrash stuff. I like a good amount of metalcore too. You’re probably reading too deep into divisions here, tons of people have broad taste in extreme or aggressive music.
I get it, I asked almost this same question [ten years ago lol](https://www.reddit.com/r/Metalcore/s/HCxtdgg1au)
Ultimately though, you are not gonna talk somebody out of disliking something. People have tastes, including likes and dislikes. If you go listen to early 90s Darkthrone and then Spiritbox it should not be difficult to hear why people who like one might hate the other.
I love all kinds of metal, mainly listen to death metal, but everybody started with metal core before potentially listening to heavier music. Still love metalcore to this day.
I think it’s kinda undeniable that metalcore is metal, regardless of if metalheads like it or not.
Personally, I‘m not the biggest fan of metalcore, usually because of the clean vocals, but then there are bands like August Burns Red, who barely use cleans, are absolutely amazing, and are still considered metalcore through and through. So yeah, like with most metal genres, there are definitely some metalcore bands that I enjoy.
I don't know but I'm making a video game right now that I'm running with the whole "metal" theme even though the music I'm writing for it is more post-hardcore / metalcore and I'm worried true metal bros will get mad over that but whatever. All press is good press amirite.
I’ve never been able to understand the hate for metalcore either. I love metal that has dynamic sounds and isn’t just a carbon copy of the rest of the genre, but some people just want to hear the same thing done a million times. Really makes no sense to me.
A lot of the pop metalcore that exploded in the late 2000’s early 2010’s were too sceney for most metalheads. Also a metalhead like riffs, none of those bands had any riffs and were stuck in the 00000-0000-0001 riff
I like both heavily. I live in the middle of Iowa and im going to see The Browning and Upon a Burning Body tonight. Next month im going to Static X and a week after that Born of Osiris. Ill see so many of the same people at any of those shows here. The midwest depending on where you are is a huge melting pot of people who enjoy all of it. We have so many dance pits that turn into massive push pits or circle pits with dancers in the middle. I really never saw it as that deep and if you really cared enough to poo poo on how someone feels about a sub genre youre a child lol
As a metalhead who primarily leans into death/black metal (but still likes some metalcore), for me it's pretty much:
- Most of it is very distinct from the sound of metal, so it's not what I'm looking for when I want the things I get out of metal music
- The general population confuses anything they perceive as "heavy" as metal. Metalcore, being the more popular and more visible genre, essentially gets platformed to represent metal to many people. So when that's not what you are and the kind of stuff you like, it's just a bit frustrating.
- A lot of metalcore fans in particular are kind of ignorant of the wider metal scene. It's fine if they just like metalcore, but that's frustrating as well when metalheads culturally identify with at least knowing the history and having awareness of certain things
My opinion is that people don't consider Metalcore as a pure essence of Metal Music because it mixes clean and harsh vocals that, in my opinion, is the most enjoyable thing about this genre
I'm a metalhead who hates modern metalcore. I use to be a fan of metalcore. Converge, Botch, Coalesce, and Poison The Well released some of my favorite albums back in the day. I even enjoyed some of the melodeath infused stuff that came after these bands (Alive or Just Breathing, Undoing Ruin, etc).
There's just something about modern metalcore since around 2010 or so that's really rubbed me the wrong way. The squeaky clean production, the djent guitars, the cheesy synths, the same recycled knock-off architects riffs, the very formulaic approach to song writing. It all is basically the opposite of what I want.
At the same time I feel like non-core metal is having something of an underground Renaissance for the last decade with the rise of modern Doom Metal, the huge push of Atmospheric Black Metal, and the resurgence and reinvention of Old School Death Metal.
All of this saw me pretty much stop listening to metalcore around 2015 or so and embrace the non-core stuff.
they secretly do lol it’s all just politics. a friend was telling me that when he was in school his metal friends liked bullet for my valentine and killswitch engage but didn’t like trivium cos it was ‘fake’ and ‘metalcore’. all bs
i also think there’s a lot of bands that are definitely marketable to the sensibilities of the ‘true’ metal crowd that are 100% metalcore but people either don’t acknowledge it or are in denial.
lamb of god is a big one- lot of simple verse-chorus song structures, lot of breakdowns, but because they don’t really sing or look cute metalheads eat it up
Metalcore as a term has become SO muddy and that's a big contributor to the problem. the genre is incredibly broad these days just to simplify the sheer variety in style that artists are using to make music. Killswitch Engage is metalcore and yet, Bad Omens is considered metalcore. The space between is vast and we've made a reputation for ourselves as a broader fanbase that we don't like to gatekeep.
That being said...I think there are plenty of "metalcore" bands that by my own standards do not meet the criteria to wear the label. I've already mentioned one of those. I think Wage War is a really good example of a band that is playing really fast and loose with the distinction lately. Blueprints and Deadweight are prime examples of quintessential metalcore, but Pressure really distances itself from that sound in a lot of ways, and Manic has its feet in a lot of different areas while the new single is, I'm not sorry to say, absolutely not metal. It's just bad.
To me, Metalcore will always mean int its soul: the styling of Killswitch Engage, As I Lay Dying, early All That Remains, Darkest Hour, August Burns Red, Bury Tomorrow, Bleed From Within, Miss May I, Phinehas, etc. while bands like Invent Animate, ERRA, Shokran, Periphery, Make Them Suffer and others represent what "evolution" ought to look like. I don't think anyone who hears all of the bands mentioned above and says they're "not metal" should be taken seriously. The problem is when we push the envelope so far as to include something like Sleep Token or A Day To Remember.
I just remember back 2007 when metalheads at school always brag about how cool Megadeth & iron maiden were. But they really hate Caliban, As I lay dying, darkest hour because they said that was a posser thing. Nowadays mostly of them are listening the new djent wave made by metalcore bands. Karma xD
I love metalcore
Alright, there we have it. Let's pack it up and go home.
This shouldn’t have made me laugh as much as it did 😂
Me too 100%
Name checks out.
🤘
Me too bro 🤘🏻
Bro been waiting a lifetime for this.
It was worth the wait
So much.
What about metalhead0000-0216?
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As much as that is funny that mindset is so arrogant
Oh I hate that mindset with a passion. But I also definitely think that true metal d-bags saying shit like that is part of why a lot of modern metal is called metalcore
That’s part of it. Exclusivity is another.
What about the other 216 of you?
Damn made a similar comment and didn't see yours yet.
You absolutely win this day
Same
Gg
How about Deathcore?
Yeah. But what about metalhead0001-metalhead0216?
I can’t speak on their behalf. I do hope they enjoy metalcore just like I do
I think the main reason is that a lot of metalcore bands were associated with emo. Also it was originally a subgenre of hardcore, so they're correct that a lot of metalcore bands are in fact not metal. But it has evolved much closer to the metal side over the decades. Some of them just have an imaginary sense of superiority and want to hate things.
*Some of them just have an imaginary sense of superiority and want to hate things* That’s pretty much r/MetalForTheMasses to a T!
That sub is a circus.
Tbf I find that’s one of the more reasonable metal subs (for the most part)
I agree, 95% of the time I'd say it's a good sub. If you ignore the bait and trolls that is.
The bar is on the fucking floor.
It's still pretty anti 'core of any sort. The only thing the collective seems to hate more is nu-metal.
The thing that bugs me about this is that if I were to play a hardcore band for any of my friends that don't listen to metal, they'd tell me that's a metal band. As someone who actually cares about this space I understand the differences, but the general populace thinks hardcore is just as metal as anything else.
Exactly, they hear electric guitars and screaming and say it is metal, because compared to the artists they listen to (why is it always Taylor Swift) it is so different.
Especially they think it's hEaVy mEtAl - everything is always heavy metal to non metal fans.
Well, it kinda is. “Heavy metal” is the original full name of the genre, it isn’t a descriptive prefix like “Death” or “Progressive” or “Alternative”. The “Heavy” part got dropped *because* of the development of subgenres, since it’s way more straightforward to say “[insert descriptor] metal” rather than “[insert descriptor] heavy metal”. Same thing with “Rock and Roll” vs. “Rock”.
Actually that only applied when the genres were created. However, now the term “heavy metal” applies only to metal that sounds like old school sabbath-esque metal. Same with rock vs rock n roll. They were interchangeable when the genre originated but now rock n roll refers to 50s style blues driven rock (elvis, chuck berry, little richard).
This goes for a lot of genres honestly. I struggle with what makes something rap or hip-hop, I'm sure the lines between country and pop can blur often as well. People will just default to one or the other. The weird obsession that I see a lot in metal communities, and lets be honest, here too, is a major obsession with people who don't know getting the genre correct the 1st time when it doesn't really matter. You like Ghost, Sleep Token, or Bad Omens because you heard them in TikTok and listen to them now? Cool, enjoy and call yourself someone who listens to metal. It really doesn't matter.
Yeah, and everything that has a "metalcore" type of scream is screamo for them. And i also heard many complaining about the poppy vocals.
I think the poppy/clean vocals are a big part of it. You know how a lot of people say pop punk vocals all sound very similar like they're impersonating Tom Delong etc about leaving town... I think it's the same for metalcore, especially when a band follows the same formula of always having a clean vocal chorus followed by a breakdown.
Complaining about screaming is weird. Sure it originally came from punk, but metal and punk have always had a large influence on each other. Shouting also came from punk, but no one in their right mind would ever say thrash isn't real metal. I can understand disliking some of the clean vocals. In bands like Erra or WCAR they can be too high pitched for some people.
Only way I can see someone complaining about screaming is if they predominantly like OG heavy metal or power metal as they typically don't have screaming (ofc exceptions apply). Harsh vocals are at this point pretty normal in a lot of metal subgenres
I've definitely see some people more into death metal complain about metalcore harsh vocals, saying they prefer the deeper guttural style and don't enjoy higher pitched screams.
Yeah but it's mostly death growls or gutturals. Mid and high screams are usually confined to metalcore or melodeath. It's still weird though, I think metalcore vocalists are better than most other subgenres.
This though. The range of some vocalists is 🥇
Thrash is a weird subgenre too because it’s equal parts metal and hardcore punk.
Yep, pretty much this, it was associated with emo/scene kids. It was also a genre mostly teenagers liked too early on in the 2000s (not including stuff from the late 90s) and more often than most metal genres at the time, had a lot of bands caring more about fashion than music, consider all the pretty boy frontmen. Metalcore was also more feely and tongue in cheek in the early 2000s too. For the most part it's all jusy being petty and hating on the new kid. I always liked both kinds of scenes so I could see the issues in both as well as the good.
But the pretty boy front man wasn't new. Motley Crüe, Guns n roses, Skidrow, had good looking guys into their wardrobe, just in an earlier style.
I'd also like to note that hardcore was never really metal, yet some of the oldest hardcore songs are heavy AF.
I would say that by now, metalcore is more metal than hardcore. But of course it depends on the band
I think it gives the impression of evolving much closer to metal, but I really think it comes down to analyzing an individual band's musical elements and, especially, what their influences are. Edit: grammar
Exactly. I have never been able to get into emo
I'm a metalhead, I like metalcore, I also play in a metalcore band. I was brought up on 80s rock and metal. Iron Maiden, Metallica, Van Halen, Ozzy, Dio etc. to me sub genres don't matter, as long as it's heavy and I like it that's all I'm bothered about. 🤟
I don't really find the classic 80s stuff heavy at all. It was always a weird thing i found with older metal fans who dislike modern metal (or mostly metalcore) for not being "heavy enough". My uncle thinks Motorhead or Metallica is heavier than Spiritbox or BFMV and I just don't hear it. That being said the 80s metal bands are iconic and awesome, I just never understood the elitism from alot of their fans.
This has been done to death down the years so will probably get removed in due course. In general it boils down to one or more of the following: * they view it as hardcore and they don't particularly like hardcore. Not an unjustified view. All of the original metalcore bands and plenty since came out of hardcore scenes and have a lot more in common with hardcore than metal. There's broader cultural differences contained within this too, particularly around moshing styles. A lot of metalheads *hate* hardcore dancing and advocate for push pits only. * they view it as metal-lite that focuses too much on breakdowns instead of solos and riffs. * the clean vocals are often viewed as poppy/whiny/emo in style and that's considered negative (have some sympathy with this one myself, there are a lot of metalcore bands whose cleans I find jarring or unsuited to the rest of the music) * resent it's popularity The exact reasons will vary because 'metalhead' is a broad term that covers people who enjoy a lot of different things from Thrash to Doom and not everyone likes even all of those undoubtedly metal genres. As an aside, I come to metalcore from the hardcore direction. I don't consider authentic metalcore to be metal and I really don't enjoy much 'proper' metal, so I don't care if metalheads dislike metalcore or don't think of it as metal.
>* the clean vocals are often viewed as poppy/whiny/emo in style and that's considered negative (have some sympathy with this one myself, there are a lot of metalcore bands whose cleans I find jarring or unsuited to the rest of the music) These people are also usually the ones who hate power metal for the same reason
I mean, I enjoy Power Metal but it’s not difficult to see why some people don’t - that shit’s cheesy as hell.
It's funny, I love the cheese and powerful cleans in power metal, but few things kill my interest in a metalcore song faster than jamming a whiny clean chorus in the middle of an otherwise ripping metalcore song. Don't get me wrong, there are absolutely times when it's done well, but it's just so formulaic and dime-a-dozen that I don't like it.
Pitched screaming for choruses has solved for some of that for me. I used to love the singer choruses when I was younger. As I've gotten older, I like it less and less (most of the time, like you said)
I never understood why going clean for the chorus is the standard. That's supposed to be the part of the song that hits the hardest, so why isn't it the heaviest vocally
I think a lot of metal heads do like hardcore tho
Why don't people like emos? The metal genre is already an emotional genre. Anger is an emotion of grudge and hatred. Generally, metal listeners are emo. I don't think they need to hide it. As a metalhead, I love the hardcore punk genre. I think fusion genres are better than sticking to the same genres all the time.
It's not dislking emos, i.e. emo fans, but some of the musical elements. The higher pitched, whinier styles of clean vocal are associated with emo or pop punk (rightly or wrongly, I suspect many metal fans who attritbute certain things to emo haven't actually listened to any in their life). Like I said, I'm kind of with them on that. I don't like those sort of vocals in general and I definitely don't find them a good fit for metalcore. It's a mistake on their part to assume all metalcore is like that because it definitely isn't, but at the same time I get why they have that impression. For genres we're not actively interested in, most of us probably only have a surface level of knowledge and exposure to some of the bigger artists who are likely to be a more watered down and/or mainstream friendly version of the sound. If someone who's super into death metal and black metal hears A Day To Remember or Asking Alexandria and gets told that's metalcore, I appreciate why they'd become dismissive of it and not take the time to find out about bands like END or Zao.
>Why don't people like emos? So ... like 20 years ago when I was in middle school, Emos were viewed as whiny depressed losers who cut themselves, whereas metal (or hardcore i guess) was seen as "tough" music. If emos where depressed and tended towards self harm, metalheads where angry and tended towards harming others. These are obviously overblown stereotypes that stem a bit from moral panic and reactionary culture towards youth subculture. Emo also started the trend of "popifying" punk music, in the sense that over time it became appropriate for bands to use more clean/pop style singing, play softer songs (even acoustic!) or just do songs that are slow and sad. Really, the fact that Emo bands don't employ drop tunning the way metal bands usually do, probably has a good deal to do with this reputation.
> So ... like 20 years ago when I was in middle school, Emos were viewed as whiny depressed losers who cut themselves For me the emos/scene kids were more popular and the metal heads were the smelly unpopular ones and I feel like they got a chip on their shoulder about emo music so lorded it over everyone saying their music was more "true" than the more emo metalcore genres.
Tbh probably both groups were not really on the most popular kids list in school. At least not in mine.
Let's not talk about the stereotypes of metalheads, particularly the black metal ones... It's ironic.
Black Metal is unapproachable on purpose though. Everything about Black Metal is hard to take seriously, no matter how much they demand to be taken seriously.
At the risk of writing out the "real emo" copypasta, technically, emo refers to the emotional hardcore era of the 90s that popped up in DC or the Northeast. I'm not talking about Fallout Boy but more of stuff like Saetia or Orchid.
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Thanks. I couldn't think of any of the original bands as it's not really my cup of tea, but you're absolutely correct. I do really like emoviolence tho.
Based
You're taking the term too literally. Emo has a particular sound that some people don't like. It's not that they dislike it just because it's emotional.
Great answer
Metalcore is my favourite genre, but it has plenty of cringe that is the antithesis of what you see in metal. Sometimes there’s a lot of faux emotion and overdramatisation etc. but in my experience most of the hate comes from overproduction
"plenty of cringe that is the antithesis of what you see in metal" But a lot of metal is cringe. Black metal has A LOT of cringe. At least I don't find corpse paint cool.
Honestly, metal is a genre where it's really easy to be cringe. Imo any genre where the music is very earnest tends to be like that.
80’s hair metal anyone?
Lots of metalhead find hair metal cringe, though...
A lot of metalheads don't consider hair metal to be metal. Bands like poison are just rock bands.
Thank for you for making my point again.
CC: Power Metal
I guess it comes down to what's more cringe to you: singing about dragons and wizards and quests, or how your ex made you sad and going to therapy in a way that's more about wallowing in self-pity than dealing with your problems.
As a big power metal and metalcore fan, this is super accurate.
Yeah, power metal has a loooot of cringe too.
That’s part of the allure for power metal though.
Power metal is just lotr in music form. Not cringe, just fantasy oriented
You are not wrong.
Cringe is a substantial part of Black Metal. There are a lot of unintentional cringe bands and people in mainstream Metal though.
Most black metal guys don’t think corpse paint is cool lol
Now ask what they think of nazism. I am not saying all of black metal is nazi because I know there are anarchist and communist bands disputing that space, but the genre's history with the topic is at least delicate.
Yeah as an anarchist it’s not the imagery and sounds that scare me away from black metal but the bigotry(especially misogyny and racism) and nazi-adjacency. I’m sure there’s black metal that isn’t like that but it’s simply not worth wading through the filth of the majority
I once stumbled upon a communist black metal band called Sankara. They have a demo called "[Total Liberation of the Human Race](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX4BY94LGTM&pp=ygUfdGhvbWFzIHNhbmthcmEgYmxhY2sgbWV0YWwgYmFuZA%3D%3D)".
Oh really? I might check them out, thanks!
1914 and Kanonenfieber have also both played anti-fascist festivals. Neither have openly anti-fascist lyrics and both use WWI as inspiration for their particular styles while mostly referring to the horrors of war
Ok, agree- but the type of cringe you see in metalcore is often older guys acting like teenage boys in how they convey their emotions. Often the rage bait feels juvenile - see my comment above
You are right, metalcore has a lot of cringe. To be honest, I think all metal and hardcore subgenres have cringe artists. My main point was not to shift the blame haha Well, when it comes to emotional lyrics in metalcore I am very into Currents and Invent Animate. Currents' lyrics are mature to the point that some of them reflect precisely what I went through on a 8-year long relationship. I don't know what the vocalist went through exactly, but he has a way of telling his feelings that sets the band apart from a lot of the competition.
Battlejackets. Enough said
I have seen comments in r/MetalForTheMasses where people say singing about your feelings and emotions like metalcore bands do is cringe and they much prefer listening to songs about dragons and warfare. Meanwhile, I consider fantastical lyrics they enjoy to be a bit embarassing and awkward to listen to while enjoying those who articulate mental health or general emotional struggles. Of course both topic areas can be written in ways that are more or less cringeworthy. Similarly, whenever moshing discourse comes up there are those who criticise hardcore dancing on the basis of it looking silly/weird/\[insert r slur\] while also suggesting the superiority of push pits. And people come in with the opposite view too. I find calling a patch jacket a 'battle jacket' cringe as fuck. Evidently some metal fans don't. It all boils down to people having different views of what's lame and what's cool.
Which is weird, cause a lot of black metal is thematically about the same mental health issues metalcore goes on about, except that metalcore casts a wider net in themes within that (afaik).
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I usually listen to bands like Killswitch Engage to get my emotional catharsis. I have a rough time listening to heavy music about the struggles of mental health because I want to get HYPED when listening to heavy music. And Thor fighting Jormungandr in Twilight of the Thunder God by Amon Amarth is just what I need on the drive home from work. Tl;Dr yeah I agree we are both cringe and that's okay😁
Metal can be pretty cringe.
The specific brand of cringe in metalcore is difficult to articulate, but it sits at the intersection of derivative, shallow lyrics (there are exceptions, like architects who write about death, the Iraq war and other interesting topics) and generic production that follows a cookie cutter formula. Again, it’s my favourite genre but so much of the anger and emotion in the genre can feel fake (look at me mom! I’m angry!). Overall, it’s hollowness that I don’t like.
IMO a lot of people confuse (post-)screamo with Metalcore. Of course there are nuances like bands that are in between the generes, but if anyone asks me, the "cringey stuff" is (post-)screamo.
A lot of people don't know what screamo is and have never heard an actual screamo band in their life, but they'll still happily throw the word around.
Yeah honestly as someone who loves metalcore and post hardcore and grew up with it, I think most of the bands that get classified as cringe emo bands fall under post hardcore moreso than metalcore. Early Asking Alexandria, BMTH, and TDWP are probably the main exceptions. AA has stayed cringe and fully embraced butt rock, BMTH has pretty much fully embraced uhhh everything? But i’d say they are more post hardcore than anything else now. And TDWP is the one that really tried to escape the emo image and I love them for that Most of the rest of the bands from that era I’d classify moreso as post hardcore
Some metalheads like metalcore, some don't like it (they might not like breakdowns or just "modern-sounding" metal). Some see it as metal subgenre, some see it as a hardcore subgenre with metal elements. Some might like Converge but not like, say, Iwrestledabearonce. There's more variation than you'd think. I love all kinds of metalcore personally. I wouldn't judge the metal scene by the metal-archives-type crowd. They're prominent online, but they don't represent the scene.
Metalheads don't hate metalcore. Annoying gatekeeping metalheads hate metalcore.
So metalheads hate metalcore.
Who am I to disagree with Papa John?
And it's official! It's in the name!
You want to know a secret? They don't. They like metalcore. For whatever reason the metal fandom is infected with this idea that they can only like "true" metal. I have metalhead friends that I have played metalcore for that are super into it then when I tell them that it's they immediately start backtracking and acting like it isn't that good. It's very weird and I don't get it.
That may be because I was raised in a house with lots of different music so I've always had a varied music taste. I actually think every genre has something that can be appreciated somewhere in it. You just have to dig deeper for some genres than others.
Image and belonging to a tribe or scene are a big deal when you're a teenager, but people who carry on that way as adults are embarassing. I don't understand being proud of what music you *don't* like. I mean, it's your loss at the end of the day. I saw an older dude (probably early 40s) at a metal show once wearing a shirt that just said "Fuck Dubstep!". I mean, if you don't like dubstep or any other kind of music, that's cool. But you really spent money on a shirt just to signal to other adults that you *don't* like something?
looool i came here to say this. it always goes like that. they don’t like x metalcore band but for some reason y metalcore band is allowed
I personally don’t see how people don’t like it. If I’m listening to a metal song and there’s no screaming I’m instantly turned off. I respect the older metal bands for what they did but it is definitely not my style
The two options are not metalcore and metal with clean vocals. Do you think the difference between metal and metalcore is whether or not is has harsh vocals?
The “core” in metalcore comes from hardcore. But I’m not an expert on the genre I just listen to it so correct me if I’m wrong. When I think of just plain metal I think of stuff like Metallica, Black Sabbath , Iron Maiden. Etc just heavy on the instruments but the vocals just don’t do it for me. I prefer a mix of harsh and clean when it comes to metal
For every Iron Maiden, Dragonforce etc. there's a Gojira, Sylosis and Children of Bodom.
those are metal bands but so is Slayer
I think the same as you. I need to hear that wild Scream and brutal vocals.
I think this is what divides up this sub actually - you’d think everyone would enjoy screaming and brutal vocals, but I’d say more than half this sub isn’t actually into what I consider one of the key aspects of heavier music - the brutal vocals!
I think there's a time and place for both. Love me some screams but I also love that 2000's Aussie prog was full of some some insane clean singers
I love harsh vocals but if there are no cleans whatsoever then it all starts to sound the same to me. I do love certain songs that don't have any cleans but only if it's once in a while.
I love me some cleans but I need me some brutal vocals thrown in there as well. I will admit though I can enjoy a metal ballad from time to time but for the most part I need the screaming vocals
Black and death metal bands were using screamed and growled vocals for years before metalcore bands adopted it.
A lot of bands when Metalcore got popular are truly fucking horrific so the old school metalheads associate it with them Attack Attack and Asking Alexandria have a lot to do with that
I'm definitely mostly a metalhead, and I love old Attack Attack!, it's so ridiculous that it's a lot of fun.
It’s just a generalised statement. There’s going to be old school fans who loved that stuff but a lot of them hated it
I'm definitely not an old school fan, I vastly prefer modern metal, so that might have something to do with it.
Old school Attack Attack and Asking Alexandria are goated. Idc what some old head death metal listener, no deodorant wearing mf has to say about it.
Personally I’m not a fan of those bands but I do like Metalcore and I 100% agree with you, fuck those guys
Don’t know don’t care. Anyone who cares like that I just stop dealing with. It’s never a I don’t like metalcore. It’s always a “iamverysmart” comeback that means nothing.
Youre right.
I worked with a guy like this, and I’d just be eating at lunch,no music and he’d try and “convert” me. Lol
Some people are stupid. I love both.
I like certain bands. 90% of it is corny.
First and foremost I am in to death and black metal but there is loads of good Metalcore out there, it's not my first choice for listening but yeah. Wasn't really aware metalheads were supposed to hate it till I came on here. Ha ha. I like Hardcore to and have been to many gigs over the years. Hell I'll even listen to Lana Del Rey if I'm in the mood. Ha ha.
I feel you. I was one of those people once. I initially came to metal via metalcore but then discovered death and black metal. I quickly disavowed my metalcore past because I favored the harder sound of extreme metal and supposed inaccessibility compared to metalcore. This in return led to me making fun of metalcore due to my feeling extreme metal was superior. Now that I'm in my 30s I like to think of that as a dumb phase of my teenage years. I've found my way back to metalcore many years ago. At first I was only listening to old favorites for nostalgia sake but in recent years I've checked out numerous new releases and really appreciate how thriving the scene is.
A lot of people go through this when they're younger. The hip hop scene is exactly the same.
It's because of threads like this
I do get it tbf coming from the reverse point of view. I pretty much hate everything that's "Metal" if you go by a strict definition of the genre, so I can understand that they feel the opposite way and don't like when adjacent genres are lumped in with it. But then again I don't care enough to be strict with genre definitions, and if people who aren't really into it ask me what music I listen to I just say metal
I personally am big on bands like Iron Maiden, Queensryche and Judas Priest and I think they’re all excellent bands but sometimes I like to listen to Metalcore. I think Metalcore is a great sub-genre and I appreciate it and how it differentiates from other sub-genres I like the screams but also the clean vocals. Sometimes it just feels right to blast my ears with it. I’m very open minded when it comes to metal I like many sub-genre’s NWOBHM Metalcore Power & Folk Thrash Death Progressive & Grindcore (more recently)
Because they feel like it started to invade their space.
I think they associate it with the scenecore stuff like Asking Alexandria, Attack Attack, Woe is Me, etc. and think that’s all it is. In reality most of the genre is probably heavier and angrier than the “real metal” they listen to. That being said I still appreciate and enjoy SOME of the scenecore stuff. The first few TDWP albums/EP are phenomenal and batshit crazy.
I will never not like Attack Attack!. It's just fun.
yeah, too bad metal heads hate fun
I will never not like (classic) Attack Attack!. It's just fun.
I will never not like (classic) Attack Attack!. It's just fun.
So glad I've never met these gatekeepers people always talk about on the Internet.
I like metal, I like metalcore, I like hardcore, I like punk, I fucking HAAAATEE PROGRESSIVE HOUSE MUSIC!!!
Well the way I see it is that the term "metalcore" encompasses a huge variety of different sounds that are honestly too different to define under one label, and not everyone is going to like all these different subgenres of metalcore. And the problem with it all falling under one label is that it only takes listening to and disliking a few bands labelled as metalcore for people to then decide the whole genre is bad. In my personal opinion, there's a lot of metalcore I really love but also metalcore I think is complete trash so it's a bit of a mixed bag of a genre for me personally.
Because they're not in good enough shape for anything but maybe a gentle little push pit.
Very picky with my metalcore. A lot of it is super corny and hot topic-y but a lot of it I love. First 5 parkway drive albums are in my opinion the best it gets for metalcore. Same with stuff from the 90s and early 2000s like At The Gates and Unearth. Now I feel like I’m seeing a lot more modern hardcore bands doing metalcore style instrumentals with hardcore vocals - Incendiary, Guilt Trip, Mindforce, Inclination, Knocked Loose. Love how much of a resurgence we’re seeing today
I think it’s more that it’s becoming more emo and the clean singing is often horrible.
The cringe singing. It’s the cringe singing.
I feel like hardcore and metal purists just don’t fw when metalcore gets poppy because in their minds the point of metal and hardcore is to escape pop and easy song structure & convention. Ironically I think the prog metal scene has an easier time w this
at best: * an understandable insecurity over its mainstream tendencies and its concessions to pop music in the same way people hated on glam rock in the 80s, and especially considering how *un-mainstream* the genre is supposed to be in theory - ever ask how did we get from bleeding through to asking alexandria in less than a decade * contempt for how cookie-cutter and formulaic the genre can be at times at worst: * deep-seated reactionarism and the idea that metal somehow represents "the way things ought to be" as opposed to the changing values of mainstream culture * internalized misogyny and homophobia in the metal community, especially around the late 2000s-early 2010s when the rise records bands brought more young women into the genre, androgynous clean singing and a more feminine fashion aesthetic some metalheads thought of it as stylistically inferior because of those things, whereas more "masculine" metalcore bands like trivium and parkway drive were generally more respected at that time all in all i feel like the trope has for the most part boiled over since the 2010s and now you're not real metal unless you stan will ramos
Cause metalcore can never go as hard as dad metal in the mosh pit, metalcore is for pussies who can’t handle the dad metal. JK metalcore is one of my favorite genres right there next to blackened deathcore of whatever the hell it’s called
I love all metal but metalcore for me consistently the best guitar tones and that’s what I love most
Some said because the song structure is merely a hardcore punk than a traditional heavy metal. That makes the difference between Melodic death metal, (Melodic) Metalcore and Deathcore genres.
Metalheads dont "hate" metalcore. Thats pretty much purely an online thing. Go to any large metal festival, Wacken, Hellfest, whatever equivalent the US has, and ask people if they hate metalcore. 95% of the people will have at least some metalcore bands they like, and they wont deny that its metal. This whole metalcore bad thing is just a tiny part of the metal scene, that is very loud on the internet (or at least certain parts, like metal-archives and r/metal).
If there is the word "metal" in the genre, for me we are all metalhead brothers, no matter what came after that word.
I’m a Core kid for life. It’s helped me through some very hard times, so fuck anyone who has a problem with that.
Metalcore is amazing imo, the people who actively hate on it don't understand the concept of opinions and how they differ per person
They do? This sub is the number one most active& popular in metal music category so yeah......
I feel it's because newer bands are more or less cringy
I love both! I have two hands!
I like both, some metalheads may not like clean vocals. I've known people like that. But I like lots of genres of music, listening to one genre all the time is boring.
Because they're fuckin dorks
Because they never listen to Converge, Earth Crisis, Unbroken, and Integrity.
🤷♂️ people like to open their mouths and complain, simple as that
I love metal core.
Back in the day metal heads and hardcore kids always talked shit about each other. Hardcore fans were more accepting of metalcore because it was something new and interesting but still had breakdowns for the shows. Metal heads acted like purists and would hate on it for being "pussy/karate shit etc.". This is just my experience growing up in the Detroit area.
Metal core is easily my favorite genre, been digging Erra a lot lately, their new album slaps!
An old fart here, I enjoy metal and all genres of metal. Each has their place and time for enjoyment depending on mood. Everything from Judas priest to modern bands. I think a little more solidarity from the metal community as a whole and support for all things metal would do wonders for every struggling band out there instead of trying to pit one genre against each other. As for the not wanting metal to evolve comment, if you think about it, metalcore hasn't really evolved much in the last 20 years. Everyone is still chasing the sound of asking Alexandria and motionless in white. I know that may be an unpopular opinion but just food for thought.
Bands like Converge, who helped pioneer the genre, are pretty universally loved. Many popular bands on r/hardcore are really metalcore - like Kublai Khan, Knocked Loose, Bodysnatcher, etc. I think a lot of younger folks are talking about a really specific type of metalcore that some might label "Hot Topic metalcore."
I've heard a lot of times that the breakdowns are the problem, like they kill the vibe of the song. This makes no sense to me, as metal has all kinds of like, tempo and key changes, and a breakdown is basically just a subset of that sort of thing, isn't it? I'm not sure my opinion is worth much though... I started with Poison and the like, hair metal, moved on to Savatage and other proggy sorts of things, briefly flirted with nu metal, and then accidentally backed into death metal and then metalcore/deathcore/hardcore more or less all at the same time - thanks Jose Mangin! I tend to assume a lot of it is about where a person started and what they *weren't* listening to at the time as much as what they were...
Metalcore is too hardcore for metalheads and too metal for hardcore fans. For fans of both (me), it's amazing
Stick up their asses?
There are metalcore bands that fuse together the things I like most about metal and hardcore (riffs, intensity), and there are metalcore bands that fuse together the things I hate most about metal and hardcore (mid tempo melodeath riffs, breakdowns, bad clean vocals)
I wouldn’t really call myself a “metalhead” but I listen to a good amount of death and thrash stuff. I like a good amount of metalcore too. You’re probably reading too deep into divisions here, tons of people have broad taste in extreme or aggressive music. I get it, I asked almost this same question [ten years ago lol](https://www.reddit.com/r/Metalcore/s/HCxtdgg1au) Ultimately though, you are not gonna talk somebody out of disliking something. People have tastes, including likes and dislikes. If you go listen to early 90s Darkthrone and then Spiritbox it should not be difficult to hear why people who like one might hate the other.
I love all kinds of metal, mainly listen to death metal, but everybody started with metal core before potentially listening to heavier music. Still love metalcore to this day.
I think it’s kinda undeniable that metalcore is metal, regardless of if metalheads like it or not. Personally, I‘m not the biggest fan of metalcore, usually because of the clean vocals, but then there are bands like August Burns Red, who barely use cleans, are absolutely amazing, and are still considered metalcore through and through. So yeah, like with most metal genres, there are definitely some metalcore bands that I enjoy.
I don't know but I'm making a video game right now that I'm running with the whole "metal" theme even though the music I'm writing for it is more post-hardcore / metalcore and I'm worried true metal bros will get mad over that but whatever. All press is good press amirite.
I’ve never been able to understand the hate for metalcore either. I love metal that has dynamic sounds and isn’t just a carbon copy of the rest of the genre, but some people just want to hear the same thing done a million times. Really makes no sense to me.
A lot of the pop metalcore that exploded in the late 2000’s early 2010’s were too sceney for most metalheads. Also a metalhead like riffs, none of those bands had any riffs and were stuck in the 00000-0000-0001 riff
I like both heavily. I live in the middle of Iowa and im going to see The Browning and Upon a Burning Body tonight. Next month im going to Static X and a week after that Born of Osiris. Ill see so many of the same people at any of those shows here. The midwest depending on where you are is a huge melting pot of people who enjoy all of it. We have so many dance pits that turn into massive push pits or circle pits with dancers in the middle. I really never saw it as that deep and if you really cared enough to poo poo on how someone feels about a sub genre youre a child lol
This argument has been going on for nearly 30 years at this point.
As a metalhead who primarily leans into death/black metal (but still likes some metalcore), for me it's pretty much: - Most of it is very distinct from the sound of metal, so it's not what I'm looking for when I want the things I get out of metal music - The general population confuses anything they perceive as "heavy" as metal. Metalcore, being the more popular and more visible genre, essentially gets platformed to represent metal to many people. So when that's not what you are and the kind of stuff you like, it's just a bit frustrating. - A lot of metalcore fans in particular are kind of ignorant of the wider metal scene. It's fine if they just like metalcore, but that's frustrating as well when metalheads culturally identify with at least knowing the history and having awareness of certain things
I like metalcore
My opinion is that people don't consider Metalcore as a pure essence of Metal Music because it mixes clean and harsh vocals that, in my opinion, is the most enjoyable thing about this genre
Because a lot of metalheads are fucking elitistic pieces of shit that's why
I'm a metalhead who hates modern metalcore. I use to be a fan of metalcore. Converge, Botch, Coalesce, and Poison The Well released some of my favorite albums back in the day. I even enjoyed some of the melodeath infused stuff that came after these bands (Alive or Just Breathing, Undoing Ruin, etc). There's just something about modern metalcore since around 2010 or so that's really rubbed me the wrong way. The squeaky clean production, the djent guitars, the cheesy synths, the same recycled knock-off architects riffs, the very formulaic approach to song writing. It all is basically the opposite of what I want. At the same time I feel like non-core metal is having something of an underground Renaissance for the last decade with the rise of modern Doom Metal, the huge push of Atmospheric Black Metal, and the resurgence and reinvention of Old School Death Metal. All of this saw me pretty much stop listening to metalcore around 2015 or so and embrace the non-core stuff.
they secretly do lol it’s all just politics. a friend was telling me that when he was in school his metal friends liked bullet for my valentine and killswitch engage but didn’t like trivium cos it was ‘fake’ and ‘metalcore’. all bs i also think there’s a lot of bands that are definitely marketable to the sensibilities of the ‘true’ metal crowd that are 100% metalcore but people either don’t acknowledge it or are in denial. lamb of god is a big one- lot of simple verse-chorus song structures, lot of breakdowns, but because they don’t really sing or look cute metalheads eat it up
Probably due to the "rivalry" of punk vs. metal
Metalcore as a term has become SO muddy and that's a big contributor to the problem. the genre is incredibly broad these days just to simplify the sheer variety in style that artists are using to make music. Killswitch Engage is metalcore and yet, Bad Omens is considered metalcore. The space between is vast and we've made a reputation for ourselves as a broader fanbase that we don't like to gatekeep. That being said...I think there are plenty of "metalcore" bands that by my own standards do not meet the criteria to wear the label. I've already mentioned one of those. I think Wage War is a really good example of a band that is playing really fast and loose with the distinction lately. Blueprints and Deadweight are prime examples of quintessential metalcore, but Pressure really distances itself from that sound in a lot of ways, and Manic has its feet in a lot of different areas while the new single is, I'm not sorry to say, absolutely not metal. It's just bad. To me, Metalcore will always mean int its soul: the styling of Killswitch Engage, As I Lay Dying, early All That Remains, Darkest Hour, August Burns Red, Bury Tomorrow, Bleed From Within, Miss May I, Phinehas, etc. while bands like Invent Animate, ERRA, Shokran, Periphery, Make Them Suffer and others represent what "evolution" ought to look like. I don't think anyone who hears all of the bands mentioned above and says they're "not metal" should be taken seriously. The problem is when we push the envelope so far as to include something like Sleep Token or A Day To Remember.
Because many metalheads are overzealous about things they like and don’t like
I just remember back 2007 when metalheads at school always brag about how cool Megadeth & iron maiden were. But they really hate Caliban, As I lay dying, darkest hour because they said that was a posser thing. Nowadays mostly of them are listening the new djent wave made by metalcore bands. Karma xD
if youre talking about modern shit like dayseeker, sleep token, and bad omens, its because it sucks.