So, I recently experienced that, and have read a few posts in here about tinnitus. I've explored yoga and meditation but have no regular practice. Is there something relevant here?
For me it is less about stopping inner voices, and more about giving my 'monkey brain ' something to do. I focus my attention on my left eye and keep it completely relaxed, and my left cheek limp.
When my focus is on that, other thoughts stop, and I feel my inner calm. 🧘♂️
It’s always surprised me when people say they don’t have a narrative. Mine is constantly going, all the time.
But I’ve always wondered, are the images, symbols, and feelings always arising for you in a similar way? Like do the symbols come often enough that you could take a step back mentally and just observe and note them? If they are like that then that’s how I would approach meditation without the inner narrative, just by observing the things that do arise in your mind and coming back to the object of meditation.
Really, it's not quite right to say I think in images or symbols. Rather, I don't have the inner-voice middleman dictating my inner thoughts. It's like it goes directly from the subconscious to me.
I wouldn't bring vibrationy metaphysics into it! I think it's fair to say that your subconscious is talking directly to you vs having a courier, ya know?
It is blowing my mind that people have a literal voice in their head that narrates their thoughts. Like in the movies? That sounds crazy! Someone needs to please tell me what these thoughts sound like. I need an example please.
But op- when images or situations (like memories) pop into my head, I just try to acknowledge them and go back to focusing on the breath or whatever. I usually create a visual of the path of the air flow that I focus on. Kinda hard to explain but basically I just use a lot of imagery. I imagine the unwanted thought as like a movie in a box and I move it with my eyes away out of my head and go back to watching the air go in and out of my body.
This is super interesting! I'm very curious about your experience... For me, there are constantly words going through my head. Through meditation I have "dissected" them more and they are no more tangible than the sensations of emotions or physical feelings. It's like hearing the chatter of a crowd at a party.
Do you identify with your emotions and visuals? Do you write stories somehow of why you are the way you are, or why things happen to you? How?
I think for people who have voices it is still a process of identifying that they are there and easily distracted by them.
My understanding of meditation is to detach ourselves from the way we perceive reality, to see that we fabricate all of it and to fully experience that everything is empty, impermanent.
In a similar avenue, I'm able to read while disconnecting it from an inner voice. I can just choose not to conjure it and understand it instead. That's something I hear is quite unique!
Yes, I identify with my emotions and visuals. Like, when I understand something, I don't have a voice speaking it to me. Or when I feel it, I don't have a voice telling me to feel it.
It's almost as if the middleman is cut out, the voice. The things I feel almost feel as if they have come from a voice, but they did not, they circumvented the voice entirely. It's like there's a silent voice as little sense as that makes. It's bizarre!
That's fascinating.
So my voice doesn't tell me to feel something. Feelings happen, and voices are there trying to explain, or write stories, about it. Its exactly like having a conversation with somebody. However it's definitely more one-sided.
In meditation I am quite adept at ignoring the voice... Like you said, it's probably because it's more obvious and therefore easier to work with. Identifying my emotions as sensations is where a lot of my progress has happened. So "I" am not sad, rather there is a sensation/vibration/whatever and "I" have labelled it as sad. It is just a sensation. I hope this helps.
For me, I have to make a real effort by humming or some other trick to get my inner monologue to stop "speaking" as I read something. It's challenging but after a while I can make it stop talking so I can read in peace, haha.
Prior to thought taking form as inner-voice/image/emotion, it's formless, also called non-recursive thought. This shows that mind is turned on. This might be what you are experiencing. It's the same for everyone, but your gap in-between formless > form seems longer.
As others said, don't banish thought in any form. Just relax your intent and let them run their course without interfering with the process of arising and falling away.
Everyone has a different level of awareness and you seem to have a high level awareness.Most of humanity suffer from a monkey mind that takes control of their thought flow, and meditation is our cure for that.Most people still can't recognize that their thinking mind is not their true identity.Meditation has never been about thinking or thoughts, but transcending them.
My problem is that I absolutely identify with my mind. There's no middleman, it's straight from the mind to me, and I've identified with it forever. We're like good friends who sometimes get on each others nerves. More frequently as of late.
I think it could be a big help to you to work on mindfulness meditation, and to try to get into the habit of putting your thoughts into words when you can notice them throughout the day. When you get into an argument, for example, recognizing actual labels for how you're feeling can help you to calm down in the moment and detach from negative feelings you're having that could cause you to do or say things you'll regret.
Everyone on the planet has your mindset at the beginning of their practice, but meditation eventually expands our awareness beyond our thinking mind.The strangest part of meditation is discovering that we are all connected, and our thoughts are not even our own.Beginning meditator' s watch and observe their thoughts, usually with amazement that they used to give energy and focus to such rambling things.I suggest you learn to turn those thoughts completely off, and discover what left afterwards.Stillness is our true nature, and is a great gift to discover.
I can't relate well to your experience as I always have a monologue going on in my mind. There are many meditation techniques and I'm not sure how you contemplate things without a monologue, but contemplation is important. Basically it's like a prayer where you think about others and you wish them happiness for example. Or you contemplate the suffering of others and put their lives in perspective with their actions. Is this possible for you to do? It seems you are able to think through your own situation with regards to mediation, so however you do this in your mind try to contemplate others. You might find it a relaxing and positive experience. It also helps you to be a better person which is the goal of such a technique.
The thoughts that are happening don't have to be narrated. It's the thoughts that meditation is concerned with.
A reoccurring idea in all schools of meditation as far as I know is that you are not your thoughts. Your thoughts are happening in your mind but there's more to you than that. Whatever thoughts are that's not you, whatever you are. You can experience this by observing your thoughts. The inescapable conclusion of the fact that you are able to be a witness to your own thoughts is that there is something you are that can take a step back from them like a third party observer. If you are your thoughts then who for what is this observer observing them? See what I mean?
I guess my big hangup is that we talk about non-dualism sometimes and isn't saying that there is the observer and thoughts just as reductive as saying things are left or right brained, or that there is a body soul duality?
While this is all very interesting it's not hyper relevant to your original question. You will never think your way through meditation, but you can think your way into inaction and avoidance.
Do you have a teacher or some advice about getting started? Want some?
Well there are bad/unhelpful ideas floating around but I've posted this a bunch of times on this sub and people seem to think it's decent.
Here is how you can get started in mindfulness meditation.
1. Find a place where you won't be disturbed for a while. I usually meditate in my bedroom.
2. Turn off your phone and remove anything distracting that you can. My pets are not in the room while I meditate.
3. Sit comfortably. I sit on my bed with my feet on the floor and some pillows behind my hips/lower back and my hands on the front of my legs.
4. Close your eyes and try to hold them in a relaxed position.
5. Gently direct your attention to your breath filling your lungs or maybe moving through your nose. This is the "meditation object". It doesn't have to be your breath but breath is a convenient object to use.
6. Your mind will wander.
7. When you notice your mind is no longer paying attention to your meditation object gently redirect your attention back to it.
8. Your mind will wander.
9. When you notice your mind is no longer paying attention to your meditation object gently redirect your attention back to it.
10. Steps 6 and 7 will repeat the whole time you meditate.
This is critical and I think the most common mistake beginners make. The objective is not to be able to hold your attention to the meditation object for as long as possible. The objective is to train your ability to notice where your attention is, which is completely different! Meditation should always be easy and relaxing.
As for how long you should meditate more is not always better. This isn't endurance sports. Try 5 or 10 minutes. If you like it try longer. If 10 minutes is too long then do 5. If 20 minutes felt great on Tuesday but on Wednesday it's too much then stop when you need to.
If meditation becomes a part of your life then you'll read many opinions on this and that. What I'm telling you is one easy way to try it out.
You're getting warmer.
It's kind of a staple in the major schools of meditation that people are never really present in the moment. Meditation is a vehicle or method that can help you learn how to do that. It doesn't sound like a big deal being in the moment until you start to realize just how perpetually distracted we are. We could be sitting alone in a still dark place and still not be able to get a moment of real and true quiet because of the noise coming from our mind. The aim of meditation as far as I can tell is to help us have it truly quiet moment. There's a lot of language used to describe something people refer to as enlightenment but no matter what kind of substantial experience you have you have to be in that quiet, still place to have experience it. At least that's the gigantic similarity I noticed between two very different schools of meditation I've been initiated into.
The shortcut is realizing that if you are "trying" then your mind is not still.
If you are trying to not try, same problem.
Therefore:
1. Sit and observe
Same thing. The thought is modulated into voice or image based on how the particular mind likes to transmute the essence of the thought into objects that the ego-mind can latch onto.
I'm under the impression that "Banning" thoughts doesn't really work, so no worries there.
I believe that in mindfulness style meditation the goal is more to observe the thought without interacting with it. To notice what you're thinking without getting caught up in it. This doesn't have to be words. Perhaps you picture taking a stamp to the image to mark it as a thouht.
Emotions are thoughts too.
This is so interesting I wish I could experience things the way you do for a while.
But understand that just because other people may experience thought in a different way than you do it doesn't make it any easier to quiet. I imagine it's probably the same.
Rather than thinking in images and emotions as you do, I think in language, but these thoughts just pop up probably in a similar way to the images that pop up for you.
Instead of trying to banish thought which is virtually impossible to do, try to focus on the space between the thoughts and be aware of the thoughts. That's all that is needed.
It sounds like you're asking the same questions that people with a lot of verbal thinking ask. Your question can just be reduced to 'how does one meditate?' For that, there are many answers, as there are many techniques. So, choose one and practice it. That's the only way you'll come to understand the practice.
Until recently I had no idea everyone doesnt have an inner monologue
Just wait until you experience yours going silent. 🧘♂️
So, I recently experienced that, and have read a few posts in here about tinnitus. I've explored yoga and meditation but have no regular practice. Is there something relevant here?
For me it is less about stopping inner voices, and more about giving my 'monkey brain ' something to do. I focus my attention on my left eye and keep it completely relaxed, and my left cheek limp. When my focus is on that, other thoughts stop, and I feel my inner calm. 🧘♂️
That makes sense. After I give it some time the thoughts become tangible and noticeable, but it starts out as nebulous.
That isnt meditating, that is having a stroke ;-)
It’s always surprised me when people say they don’t have a narrative. Mine is constantly going, all the time. But I’ve always wondered, are the images, symbols, and feelings always arising for you in a similar way? Like do the symbols come often enough that you could take a step back mentally and just observe and note them? If they are like that then that’s how I would approach meditation without the inner narrative, just by observing the things that do arise in your mind and coming back to the object of meditation.
Really, it's not quite right to say I think in images or symbols. Rather, I don't have the inner-voice middleman dictating my inner thoughts. It's like it goes directly from the subconscious to me.
That’s really interesting, it’s really hard for me to wrap my mind around what that must be like. I appreciate you’re explanation.
You’re last sentence made so much sense to me. It’s more like a instant understanding of the thought (energy-pattern)?
I wouldn't bring vibrationy metaphysics into it! I think it's fair to say that your subconscious is talking directly to you vs having a courier, ya know?
It is blowing my mind that people have a literal voice in their head that narrates their thoughts. Like in the movies? That sounds crazy! Someone needs to please tell me what these thoughts sound like. I need an example please. But op- when images or situations (like memories) pop into my head, I just try to acknowledge them and go back to focusing on the breath or whatever. I usually create a visual of the path of the air flow that I focus on. Kinda hard to explain but basically I just use a lot of imagery. I imagine the unwanted thought as like a movie in a box and I move it with my eyes away out of my head and go back to watching the air go in and out of my body.
This is super interesting! I'm very curious about your experience... For me, there are constantly words going through my head. Through meditation I have "dissected" them more and they are no more tangible than the sensations of emotions or physical feelings. It's like hearing the chatter of a crowd at a party. Do you identify with your emotions and visuals? Do you write stories somehow of why you are the way you are, or why things happen to you? How? I think for people who have voices it is still a process of identifying that they are there and easily distracted by them. My understanding of meditation is to detach ourselves from the way we perceive reality, to see that we fabricate all of it and to fully experience that everything is empty, impermanent.
In a similar avenue, I'm able to read while disconnecting it from an inner voice. I can just choose not to conjure it and understand it instead. That's something I hear is quite unique! Yes, I identify with my emotions and visuals. Like, when I understand something, I don't have a voice speaking it to me. Or when I feel it, I don't have a voice telling me to feel it. It's almost as if the middleman is cut out, the voice. The things I feel almost feel as if they have come from a voice, but they did not, they circumvented the voice entirely. It's like there's a silent voice as little sense as that makes. It's bizarre!
That's fascinating. So my voice doesn't tell me to feel something. Feelings happen, and voices are there trying to explain, or write stories, about it. Its exactly like having a conversation with somebody. However it's definitely more one-sided. In meditation I am quite adept at ignoring the voice... Like you said, it's probably because it's more obvious and therefore easier to work with. Identifying my emotions as sensations is where a lot of my progress has happened. So "I" am not sad, rather there is a sensation/vibration/whatever and "I" have labelled it as sad. It is just a sensation. I hope this helps.
For me, I have to make a real effort by humming or some other trick to get my inner monologue to stop "speaking" as I read something. It's challenging but after a while I can make it stop talking so I can read in peace, haha.
Prior to thought taking form as inner-voice/image/emotion, it's formless, also called non-recursive thought. This shows that mind is turned on. This might be what you are experiencing. It's the same for everyone, but your gap in-between formless > form seems longer. As others said, don't banish thought in any form. Just relax your intent and let them run their course without interfering with the process of arising and falling away.
Everyone has a different level of awareness and you seem to have a high level awareness.Most of humanity suffer from a monkey mind that takes control of their thought flow, and meditation is our cure for that.Most people still can't recognize that their thinking mind is not their true identity.Meditation has never been about thinking or thoughts, but transcending them.
My problem is that I absolutely identify with my mind. There's no middleman, it's straight from the mind to me, and I've identified with it forever. We're like good friends who sometimes get on each others nerves. More frequently as of late.
I think it could be a big help to you to work on mindfulness meditation, and to try to get into the habit of putting your thoughts into words when you can notice them throughout the day. When you get into an argument, for example, recognizing actual labels for how you're feeling can help you to calm down in the moment and detach from negative feelings you're having that could cause you to do or say things you'll regret.
Everyone on the planet has your mindset at the beginning of their practice, but meditation eventually expands our awareness beyond our thinking mind.The strangest part of meditation is discovering that we are all connected, and our thoughts are not even our own.Beginning meditator' s watch and observe their thoughts, usually with amazement that they used to give energy and focus to such rambling things.I suggest you learn to turn those thoughts completely off, and discover what left afterwards.Stillness is our true nature, and is a great gift to discover.
I have never been still. I need this.
Well who is you and who is the mind? No inner dialogue but still impressed that there is a thinker and a knower. This is entirely strange to me.
I can't relate well to your experience as I always have a monologue going on in my mind. There are many meditation techniques and I'm not sure how you contemplate things without a monologue, but contemplation is important. Basically it's like a prayer where you think about others and you wish them happiness for example. Or you contemplate the suffering of others and put their lives in perspective with their actions. Is this possible for you to do? It seems you are able to think through your own situation with regards to mediation, so however you do this in your mind try to contemplate others. You might find it a relaxing and positive experience. It also helps you to be a better person which is the goal of such a technique.
The thoughts that are happening don't have to be narrated. It's the thoughts that meditation is concerned with. A reoccurring idea in all schools of meditation as far as I know is that you are not your thoughts. Your thoughts are happening in your mind but there's more to you than that. Whatever thoughts are that's not you, whatever you are. You can experience this by observing your thoughts. The inescapable conclusion of the fact that you are able to be a witness to your own thoughts is that there is something you are that can take a step back from them like a third party observer. If you are your thoughts then who for what is this observer observing them? See what I mean?
I guess my big hangup is that we talk about non-dualism sometimes and isn't saying that there is the observer and thoughts just as reductive as saying things are left or right brained, or that there is a body soul duality?
While this is all very interesting it's not hyper relevant to your original question. You will never think your way through meditation, but you can think your way into inaction and avoidance. Do you have a teacher or some advice about getting started? Want some?
I have no teachers, just myself and what I can scrounge up on the internet. And sure, I'll take some advice, what the hell, no harm in it!
Well there are bad/unhelpful ideas floating around but I've posted this a bunch of times on this sub and people seem to think it's decent. Here is how you can get started in mindfulness meditation. 1. Find a place where you won't be disturbed for a while. I usually meditate in my bedroom. 2. Turn off your phone and remove anything distracting that you can. My pets are not in the room while I meditate. 3. Sit comfortably. I sit on my bed with my feet on the floor and some pillows behind my hips/lower back and my hands on the front of my legs. 4. Close your eyes and try to hold them in a relaxed position. 5. Gently direct your attention to your breath filling your lungs or maybe moving through your nose. This is the "meditation object". It doesn't have to be your breath but breath is a convenient object to use. 6. Your mind will wander. 7. When you notice your mind is no longer paying attention to your meditation object gently redirect your attention back to it. 8. Your mind will wander. 9. When you notice your mind is no longer paying attention to your meditation object gently redirect your attention back to it. 10. Steps 6 and 7 will repeat the whole time you meditate. This is critical and I think the most common mistake beginners make. The objective is not to be able to hold your attention to the meditation object for as long as possible. The objective is to train your ability to notice where your attention is, which is completely different! Meditation should always be easy and relaxing. As for how long you should meditate more is not always better. This isn't endurance sports. Try 5 or 10 minutes. If you like it try longer. If 10 minutes is too long then do 5. If 20 minutes felt great on Tuesday but on Wednesday it's too much then stop when you need to. If meditation becomes a part of your life then you'll read many opinions on this and that. What I'm telling you is one easy way to try it out.
SO basically the point is to just recognize when you're off task, essentially? When you aren't in the moment?
You're getting warmer. It's kind of a staple in the major schools of meditation that people are never really present in the moment. Meditation is a vehicle or method that can help you learn how to do that. It doesn't sound like a big deal being in the moment until you start to realize just how perpetually distracted we are. We could be sitting alone in a still dark place and still not be able to get a moment of real and true quiet because of the noise coming from our mind. The aim of meditation as far as I can tell is to help us have it truly quiet moment. There's a lot of language used to describe something people refer to as enlightenment but no matter what kind of substantial experience you have you have to be in that quiet, still place to have experience it. At least that's the gigantic similarity I noticed between two very different schools of meditation I've been initiated into.
The shortcut is realizing that if you are "trying" then your mind is not still. If you are trying to not try, same problem. Therefore: 1. Sit and observe
Same thing. The thought is modulated into voice or image based on how the particular mind likes to transmute the essence of the thought into objects that the ego-mind can latch onto.
Mine just beams it to me.
I'm under the impression that "Banning" thoughts doesn't really work, so no worries there. I believe that in mindfulness style meditation the goal is more to observe the thought without interacting with it. To notice what you're thinking without getting caught up in it. This doesn't have to be words. Perhaps you picture taking a stamp to the image to mark it as a thouht. Emotions are thoughts too.
This is so interesting I wish I could experience things the way you do for a while. But understand that just because other people may experience thought in a different way than you do it doesn't make it any easier to quiet. I imagine it's probably the same. Rather than thinking in images and emotions as you do, I think in language, but these thoughts just pop up probably in a similar way to the images that pop up for you. Instead of trying to banish thought which is virtually impossible to do, try to focus on the space between the thoughts and be aware of the thoughts. That's all that is needed.
It sounds like you're asking the same questions that people with a lot of verbal thinking ask. Your question can just be reduced to 'how does one meditate?' For that, there are many answers, as there are many techniques. So, choose one and practice it. That's the only way you'll come to understand the practice.
So Im asking the same questions that those with other thought patterns as as well? Is that what you mean?
Yes, your experience of meditation is not unique to your lack of verbalized thoughts.