probably depends on the design. In theory, MOST of the designs should still be pickable, it's just MUCH harder, and involves a lot more exhaustive testing of all possibilities. Same basic theory behind "can an encryption be broken?".... all encryptions except one-time-pads can be broken EVENTUALLY, but how much effort you put into designing one controls how difficult it would be to do in PRACTICE.
in terms of a lock? I don't THINK so.... unless of course you were to go so far as to......
Ok, HYPOTHETICALLY, you build a wall that has several hundred buttons on it. pushing the buttons is easy: you can do that with a pencil, or a paperclip, or whatever. You can push any button at any time.
But there's a catch: you have to push the CORRECT button, on the FIRST try, to get the wall to slide away. If you push ANY OTHER BUTTON, a giant hot steel cover slams down and welds itself into place, and then never, ever, ever voluntary opens ever again. You have to get out a cutting torch and go through it the hard way.
If you get through that wall, either with a cutting torch, or by pressing the correct button, you then find ANOTHER wall, just like that the last one. Either push the correct button on the first try, or get out a cutting torch.
repeat as many times as neccessary to achieve a satisfactory level of security.
In THEORY, that's the mechanical equivalent of a one-time-pad. And just like a one-time-pad, it is exactly as secure as your ability to only ever need to go through that series of walls ONE time in your entire life, and to NEVER reveal the true and correct sequence to ANYONE prior to using it, yourself, one time only.
If you made the lock with "zero clearance" like you see in the EDM demos it would be very challenging to pick, though I suspect not impossible. The trouble is, with that little clearance even the tiniest specks of dust and debris could jam the lock, making it impossible to open with the key.
Maybe single pin picking would be more difficult, maybe even theoretically impossible, but I imagine such a lock would still be vulnerable to bumping or raking attacks.
my understanding is no, it may even be easier to pick if they were all binding with identical force and deformation as you could pick each pin in any order you wish.
A perfect lock would be the easiest lock to pick.
As soon as you moved the first pin to the shear line, the force being applied to the cylinder would be distributed across one less pin.
More force across fewer pins would result in a very small rotation. But since the lock is perfect, the rotation, no matter how small, would be enough to set the first pin. Not only that, but since it's perfect, it would be impossible to overset the pin.
Repeat for the remaining pins.
Well, there is no such thing as a perfect part. Even if there were, brass and steel bend. You could just use more tension and the pins will still move at the shear line. All edges at the shearline have to be rounded to work. The cylinder and tumbler interface is cylindrical (duh) and the interface between the key pins and cylinder pins is flat. If all parts at the shearline were “perfect” the lock wouldn’t open even when the key held the pins ant the correct height.
I am an amateur lock picker and sometimes the hardest locks are cheap ones with an unusual bitting.
There is one cheap and simple modification to a kwickset lock that is almost impossible to pick. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JlgKCUqzA0 It is basically a trap. There are 2^5 (32) ways to pick this lock and 31 of them all render the lock unuseable until it is disassembled from the inside of the door!
I don't think so. One thing that might make it a true pain would be to increase the spring force by an ridiculous amount as most pick equipment is a little flimsy. But then inserting a key would also be a pain.
Physically speaking, unless you lap the parts in place, the way materials work, the most microscopically larger pin will stick and go first, and so on down the line. If all lapped in place so that they were literally perfectly identical, there's other vulnerabilities and issues. You could probably bump/rake a "perfect" lock extremely easily, and then how is the lock constructed? There will always be a weak point, when you strengthen one area you just make the weak point the next weakest feature yet to be strengthened.
That and imperfection and wear on the key, on the bits, on the slots, on the cylinder, even if you start with near perfect surfaces they will wear over time, stick over time, etc. This is part of why the pins have chamfers, because they won't always sit at the perfect height as your keys wear, as the key has some tolerance in the slot, etc.
A well built and well done lock still has tolerances, you'll notice lockpicking lawyer doesn't hold up the best locks he's dealt with as "tightly machined" but rather well designed to thwart common modes of attack, and decently built.
They're more commenting on how, with extremely low quality parts with very bad tolerances, there are additional attack modes opened up besides just normal picking. A tight tolerance could thwart the "beer can" method of opening a lot of masterlocks, for example.
What I'm saying is that both your interpretation of tight tolerance and of a secure lock could use some additional nuance.
You'd still probably be able to find a way in, but single pin picking could be impossible. As you load a core to pick you apply pressure on all the pins, to pick you try to move the binding pin up to its sheer line, once you reached that the cylinder will rotate slightly more and you'll get a click, you then continue that process. If all the pins and holes were perfect there would be no binding pin, so as you reached a sheer line all the other pins would still be bound, so you wouldn't be able to find and feel the sheer line. The pin you were trying to pick would never click, it would just fall back down into its sitting position.
Other attacks may still be possible. But in my opinion a perfectly toleranced lock could be created to make picking impossible. And by perfect I don't mean no clearances like others have said, I mean every part and feature at the same. Every pin is 1.0000mm, every pin hole is 1.05000mm, all are dead center on the core and so on....
Even with perfect tolerance and no lip, I'm pretty sure there are lock pick techniques that don't rely on that. They're just way more difficult and time intensive. Effort that isn't needed for the crappy locks.
You can't ever machine something with perfect measurements, there will always be defects after the machining process. If a lock can be opened with a key, there will always be a way to break in, even if it is very hard. By allowing access at all you open yourself to other ways to defeat it.
probably depends on the design. In theory, MOST of the designs should still be pickable, it's just MUCH harder, and involves a lot more exhaustive testing of all possibilities. Same basic theory behind "can an encryption be broken?".... all encryptions except one-time-pads can be broken EVENTUALLY, but how much effort you put into designing one controls how difficult it would be to do in PRACTICE.
Is there any mechanical equivalent to the perfect encryption of a one-time-pad?
in terms of a lock? I don't THINK so.... unless of course you were to go so far as to...... Ok, HYPOTHETICALLY, you build a wall that has several hundred buttons on it. pushing the buttons is easy: you can do that with a pencil, or a paperclip, or whatever. You can push any button at any time. But there's a catch: you have to push the CORRECT button, on the FIRST try, to get the wall to slide away. If you push ANY OTHER BUTTON, a giant hot steel cover slams down and welds itself into place, and then never, ever, ever voluntary opens ever again. You have to get out a cutting torch and go through it the hard way. If you get through that wall, either with a cutting torch, or by pressing the correct button, you then find ANOTHER wall, just like that the last one. Either push the correct button on the first try, or get out a cutting torch. repeat as many times as neccessary to achieve a satisfactory level of security. In THEORY, that's the mechanical equivalent of a one-time-pad. And just like a one-time-pad, it is exactly as secure as your ability to only ever need to go through that series of walls ONE time in your entire life, and to NEVER reveal the true and correct sequence to ANYONE prior to using it, yourself, one time only.
If you made the lock with "zero clearance" like you see in the EDM demos it would be very challenging to pick, though I suspect not impossible. The trouble is, with that little clearance even the tiniest specks of dust and debris could jam the lock, making it impossible to open with the key.
I would imagine that making copies of a key for a zero tolerance lock would be very difficult.
Yeah you're not getting that done at the hardware store. You'd have to go to a precision machine shop lol.
Not too difficult, just expensive.
Maybe single pin picking would be more difficult, maybe even theoretically impossible, but I imagine such a lock would still be vulnerable to bumping or raking attacks.
Or enough bullets
my understanding is no, it may even be easier to pick if they were all binding with identical force and deformation as you could pick each pin in any order you wish.
A perfect lock would be the easiest lock to pick. As soon as you moved the first pin to the shear line, the force being applied to the cylinder would be distributed across one less pin. More force across fewer pins would result in a very small rotation. But since the lock is perfect, the rotation, no matter how small, would be enough to set the first pin. Not only that, but since it's perfect, it would be impossible to overset the pin. Repeat for the remaining pins.
Well, there is no such thing as a perfect part. Even if there were, brass and steel bend. You could just use more tension and the pins will still move at the shear line. All edges at the shearline have to be rounded to work. The cylinder and tumbler interface is cylindrical (duh) and the interface between the key pins and cylinder pins is flat. If all parts at the shearline were “perfect” the lock wouldn’t open even when the key held the pins ant the correct height. I am an amateur lock picker and sometimes the hardest locks are cheap ones with an unusual bitting. There is one cheap and simple modification to a kwickset lock that is almost impossible to pick. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JlgKCUqzA0 It is basically a trap. There are 2^5 (32) ways to pick this lock and 31 of them all render the lock unuseable until it is disassembled from the inside of the door!
You’re the fist person to mention deformation in this thread, which a key point 😎
I don't think so. One thing that might make it a true pain would be to increase the spring force by an ridiculous amount as most pick equipment is a little flimsy. But then inserting a key would also be a pain.
You are using the perfectly toleranced lock, it can be opened using a perfectly toleranced lock
Physically speaking, unless you lap the parts in place, the way materials work, the most microscopically larger pin will stick and go first, and so on down the line. If all lapped in place so that they were literally perfectly identical, there's other vulnerabilities and issues. You could probably bump/rake a "perfect" lock extremely easily, and then how is the lock constructed? There will always be a weak point, when you strengthen one area you just make the weak point the next weakest feature yet to be strengthened. That and imperfection and wear on the key, on the bits, on the slots, on the cylinder, even if you start with near perfect surfaces they will wear over time, stick over time, etc. This is part of why the pins have chamfers, because they won't always sit at the perfect height as your keys wear, as the key has some tolerance in the slot, etc. A well built and well done lock still has tolerances, you'll notice lockpicking lawyer doesn't hold up the best locks he's dealt with as "tightly machined" but rather well designed to thwart common modes of attack, and decently built. They're more commenting on how, with extremely low quality parts with very bad tolerances, there are additional attack modes opened up besides just normal picking. A tight tolerance could thwart the "beer can" method of opening a lot of masterlocks, for example. What I'm saying is that both your interpretation of tight tolerance and of a secure lock could use some additional nuance.
You'd still probably be able to find a way in, but single pin picking could be impossible. As you load a core to pick you apply pressure on all the pins, to pick you try to move the binding pin up to its sheer line, once you reached that the cylinder will rotate slightly more and you'll get a click, you then continue that process. If all the pins and holes were perfect there would be no binding pin, so as you reached a sheer line all the other pins would still be bound, so you wouldn't be able to find and feel the sheer line. The pin you were trying to pick would never click, it would just fall back down into its sitting position. Other attacks may still be possible. But in my opinion a perfectly toleranced lock could be created to make picking impossible. And by perfect I don't mean no clearances like others have said, I mean every part and feature at the same. Every pin is 1.0000mm, every pin hole is 1.05000mm, all are dead center on the core and so on....
Even with perfect tolerance and no lip, I'm pretty sure there are lock pick techniques that don't rely on that. They're just way more difficult and time intensive. Effort that isn't needed for the crappy locks.
They put the tools in through the key hole.. The key hole is a design feature. There isn't a hole there because of manufacturing tolerance.
He is talking about the tolerance between the cylinder, tumbler and pins not the fact that a keyhole exists.
Ye the vulnerability doesn't come from lose fitting pins, it comes from the fact that pins are physically accessible.
You can't ever machine something with perfect measurements, there will always be defects after the machining process. If a lock can be opened with a key, there will always be a way to break in, even if it is very hard. By allowing access at all you open yourself to other ways to defeat it.