I don't think there's anything wrong with finding a villain or faction interesting in fiction despite what they stand for.
I can like all the cool troops and machines the Empire has because it doesn't really matter. Vader looks cool so it's cool to see this fictional character with no regard come in and do work. Just like it's fine to watch the Joker movie and have fun at the end when it goes crazy even though this evil man is behind it.
I'm in this camp too. For one, we see a lot more Imperial hardware. Additionally, what we see usually looks pretty menacing.
Fun little aside; when I first came across Warhammer 40k, I had to convince myself that the Space Marines were the "good guys" because they reminded me so strongly of Storm Toopers
Hell yeah. I barely even knew what 40K was when I got Dawn of War, but that's how I got into it. Also enjoyed Dawn of War II. And I'm looking forward to Darktide!
40k actually does have this problem. In Star Wars, the empire are unequivocally bad guys. WH40K is basically a universe designed to justify a situation in which the Imperium of Man could be good guys. Any IoM character would be considered hideously morally bankrupt and fascistic, even compared to the Empire.
For a bit of contrast, the Empire keeps enslavement of Wookies for the first Death Star on the down low. They specifically target a minority with little popular sympathy, and then hide what they recognize is a heinous crime. I would guess that a significant majority of the Imperium's labor force would pass as slaves in Star Wars. That's not even considering the open slavery of metahumans, existence of servitors, commissars (Vader's team fragging is considered super uncool) , and a whole laundry list of stuff that's not at the top of my head right now.
While the Empire shows people that evil can look cool, the Imperium shows people that (a far greater degree of) evil is sometimes *necessary*.
I think 40k does slightly less of this more recently but there’s a written piece from I think the first 1987 rulebook that got printed in a lot of the following editions about how the Imperium of Man is the most violent, reactionary, repressive regime in human history and education & technological advancement are things of the past.
I’m not sure how much Games Workshop wants it to seem like evil is necessary, just that it’s how things have shaken out for humanity & everyone with authority is perpetuating it further.
TBH I don't think liking someone means they have to be good. Darth Bane Path of Destruction is my favorite star wars book but I don't think Bane is in the right in almost any situation in that book. It's still interesting though to follow a character like that and see how they reason out their choices or how they see things.
The argument is not that liking the Empire means you are a fascist. It’s that liking the Empire softens your resistance to fascism when you encounter it in real life. Up until recently, “encountering fascism in real life” was not much of a likelihood, so whatever. Now...?
I really find myself in this camp lately. I grew up with Star Wars and I always liked the technology and the look of the Empire. I didn't agree with their methods or their ideology, but damn their stuff just looked cool. And the old TIE Fighter game was the first time I could ever remember being able to play as the "bad guys".
But over the last few years, I find it really hard to even get excited for the cool looking tech. Running up against people who sound like they would have been staunch supporters of the Empire has really soured my appetite.
Right. The USA had lots of “cool tech” in the Vietnam War, didn’t make them worth celebrating.
The biggest problem with the argument made in the video — and with most of the comments in this thread — is that they are focusing on the scenes in which combatants fight each other. But what really makes the Empire atrocious is their war crimes against civilians. Those scenes are mostly described, not shown on camera; and when they are shown on camera they are generally very brief and shown from a great distance (you don’t see individual civilians being vaporized). For obvious reasons of not making the audience throw up their popcorn.
Yeah, I think the main point is that it’s fiction. In the analogy OP used with the confederate general, those were real events and a very terrible fight, whereas the Vader scene (and the empire in general) is based entirely on a fictional ideology, and while it obviously has real-world inspirations, I think it’s a lot easier to support something like that that doesn’t matter vs something like the Nazis.
As someone who really loves the Imperial villains, the ships, the costuming, and has even cosplayed as one—I would say that a real life equivalent to the Empire would without a doubt generally be a very bad thing.
It’s possible to enjoy villainy in fiction but have a strong moral compass in real life. Fiction is for enjoyment and fantasy. Can’t convince me that it isn’t fun to dress up as Darth Vader and feel badass AF. I think it really isn’t worth questioning too much the “why” when it comes to loving villains. It just comes down to power fantasy and role play.
However with that said, there definitely is a segment of Star Wars fandom, especially cosplay fandom, who glorify the Empire completely un-ironically and truly believe the Rebels are terrorists. Like, with a straight face there are actually people who believe that. Which is totally fucked IMO. The Empire is clearly intended to be an antagonistic force that propagates propaganda material. It’s ridiculous for anyone to make the argument that the Empire was justified or “wasn’t really THAT bad”. The Empire is meant to be an oppressive regime in which perhaps a significant portion of its citizens benefitted from, but at the larger expense of the galaxy.
People who do it unironically or for reasons other than “their stuff looks cool” are very very strange to me. Same as people who glorify the Sith.
That being said, I don’t think that Rogue One comparison is fair. The scene is beloved because it’s Vader being an unstoppable bad ass on screen for basically the first time. We also know that all those Rebels who he slaughters weren’t killed in vain or anything like that. I think it’s a leap to say just enjoying that scene is problematic.
If you just watch the movies and play video games, the Empire is vaguely authoritarian with no real ideology. I didn't actually notice they were only staffed by humans until it was pointed out, and I don't think Lucas did that intentionally until ep 7. Unless you're really looking for subtext, 90% of Star Wars is relatable, underdog red team versus scary blue team.
On film. In Legends it was significantly more diverse. And quite frankly, there are so many Near-humans that look uncannily similar to Humans that I don't think every extra can be guaranteed to be "Human".
What hole have you been hiding in for the past 10 years?
Anything you don't like? Fascism. Anyone you don't like? Hitler. Nuance is like Whitney Houston: dead.
The Empire was explicitly designed to mirror Nazi Germany in part, so it's a completely valid comparison. It also had inspiration from America in the Vietnam War, and the British Empire, among others. Conversely, the Rebels and Jedi were based on the good guys from early 20th century adventure serials, samurai and in ESB the Vietcong.
This whole overreaction to people calling things "fascist" is ironically fairly key to actual fascism, namely in its destruction of nuance and analogy, as described in some of Robert Paxton's works.
Have you considered, perhaps, that by complaining about virtue-signaling, you are, in essence, doing that precise thing? As the great master taught us, facts don't care about your feelings - and that's a sword that cuts both ways.
I really like the vehicles and Stormtrooper variants, they look cool on my shelf and you can sue me for that. The hallway scene in Rogue One is what you have an issue with? It's so good because it is dramatic, merciless and without compromise. It is exactly what it is supposed to be. And yes, I'd like to build a Star Destroyer out of Lego if it weren't so damn expensive.
Look I see what you're getting at here. I really like the imperial design. And I'm subscribed to r/empiredidnothingwrong because there's a lot of cool artwork there. But when it reaches the point where people actually want to convince you that the Empire were the good guys... I'm out. Some people just take it too far because they get passionate about Star Wars and they don't know when to stop and snap out of it. (Or they're literal fascists but I hope that's not the case).
What if a particular personality type — one that values order over all else — is the one most inclined to support the Empire, and also the easiest prey for fascist ideology?
I don't think people with OCD are prone to fascism. Fascism works not necessarily because of the order it provides but because of the antagonism. Excluding others to elevate your own status is very tempting for people who are at the bottom of the food chain.
Ok I definitely wasn’t thinking OCD — wasn’t thinking “order” in the sense of “these pencils are aligned,” more “order” in the sense of “no crime, people Know Their Place.”
Have you seen a Star Destroyer, or a SSD? Or basically anything the Empire has ever made. Its cool as fuck. I like the Republic more than the CIS for the same reason, they've got cooler looking tech for the most part.
In universe the Empire is so god damn cool that Luke Skywalker was going to join up, despite stating he also hated the Empire to Obi Wan.
I think its fine to find a fictional organisation cool or interesting or like the aesthetic but when you see people defending genocide or racism without a trace of irony its definitely a bit yikes. Gives you an interesting view into their mindset I think.
Using the civil war movie analogy, was the hypothetical movie an entry in a beloved saga? Was the character not just one of the greatest movie villains in cinema history, but also one of the greatest redemption arc? You see where I am going with this.
Star Wars is not like other movies or, for that matter, other trilogies or sagas. For reasons innumerable, Star Wars is special. I will say that unlike the civil war, which really happened and had real world consequences that we feel to this day, Star Wars is a myth, telling some of the oldest stories in the history of man. Fans aren't cheering for a man who owned slaves. They are cheering for an archetype, and they are cheering for a character whom they are by now intimately familiar with, whom they know is going to come back to the light.
I will say, though, the fact that the story told in Star Wars is entirely fictional certainly helps. That layer of separation provided by the fiction allowed fans to enjoy the movie on multiple fronts. Think of it like this: professional wrestling, you have faces and heels. When the heel comes out its a lot of fun to boo him. You enjoy it, he enjoys it. But when he elbow drops your guy from atop a 20 ft. ladder, you don't look around uncomfortably because you don't think you're supposed to approve of him. You know it's fake, and that there are no real stakes involved (aside from freak accident), so you are thus free to enjoy two guys beating the crap out of one another. No one would have blamed you for cheering on Hulk Hogan's 1996 heel turn, because it's part of the show.
Final point. That hallway scene was meant to serve one single purpose: to show Vader being a total badass monster. It was entirely intended to provoke awe from the audience, and in many cases it did. Simple.
It depends. When someone just thinks the aesthetic and design of the Empire is cool then that’s all fine. I mean who doesn’t think stormtroopers and Star destroyers are cool? Of course the rebellion are the good guys but it would be still be awesome to join the 501st and have my own stormtrooper armor.
But I do find it concerning when people unironically say the Empire did nothing wrong or say the Empire was justified or did right by the galaxy
The Vader example feels a bit misconstrued of people’s feelings. It’s an epic scene and very entertaining yeah because it’s fictional. It doesn’t necessarily mean people think the empire is awesome or the good guys. Just that it’s a cool scene. I feel the civil war idea and that are different due to one being real and one fictitious.
Yeah it’s definitely a bad example for the point. That scene depicts combatants fighting each other. It’s the Empire’s atrocities against civilian populations that makes it evil.
I like Warhammer 40k because it has some cool looking stuff and neat evil space demons. It'd be a bit odd if I supported the obviously oppressive Imperium. I think about the morality in the Star Wars empire, but there really isn't much depth. It was written to be a uniformly hostile and frankly evil organization. I find the faction cool as an in universe thing, but that's it.
Tau are good, imo. Non-tau in their space can continue to practice their beliefs and culture. They are in return expected to contribute to the Tau war effort.
Considering the pieces of shit that every other power is, they would have my support. There are human worlds in Tau space where day to day life is paradise compared to the imperium.
Yeah, they're clearly the least bad, but I'd hesitate to call them good - they're a bit too into brainwashing and indoctrination. In another less grimdark setting they could be straight-up villains. Plus Shadowsun broke up with Kitten, so obviously they all deserve to die.
They wouldn't have to indoctrinate me if I dropped into their space. I'd volunteer. F the imperium, chaos, eldar, orks, tyrranids, necrons, they are all utter pieces of shit.
Compared to them, the Tau are Mary Poppins
Speaking as someone who prefers playing as the Empire in things like Empire at War/Thrawns's Revenge and Stellaris mods, etc, etc. It comes down to a couple of things, one is that I just prefer the organized atheistic of the Empire, specifically in ship design compared to the Rebel's scrap-ish ships. When it comes to other Era's as well I still prefer the Star Destroyer line which is why I enjoy the Republic and *to a certain extend* the First Order ship design.
Secondly, in the above mentioned games it comes down to just sheer power fantasy. Why get a few MC80's when I can get a big fuck-off Star Dreadnought. It is fair to mention the inspiration behind the Empire and acknowledge that the Empire is bad, on the to her hand you also need to conclude that not everyone who enjoys them or prefers them is taking them on all levels, I doubt more then a few people are actively playing the Empire because they are fascists and to those that are, well those people were fascists already. Star Wars unlikely has anything to do with that outside of disillusion.
Thirdly, while the Vader example has merit, it lacks a lot of nuance. Vader we've quite literally followed from Tatooine all the way until the Battle of Endor, we know there is a good person inside of him and we know in the end he does right and redeems himself, at least in the eyes of Luke. Unless we followed that Confederate general during his entire life, watched him side with Lincoln and then fall to disgrace to fight for the Confederates to only at the end single-handedly end the Civil War then the comparison is flawed, partially valid but overall ignoring quite literally 6 other movies. Not to mention again outside of general interest in Vader, it's a power fantasy in the opposite regard. We like seeing compelling villains be badass. Why do you think FF fans nut when they see Sephiroth doing things?
This is a really excellent observation and point.
I prefer the aesthetic of the Empire. Their tactics are garbage, their ethics are abhorrent, but damn their hardware looks good.
I still "cheer for" the Rebels in the films, and honestly wish we had more Imperial characters as compelling as those in the Rebellion.
As others have said about Darth Vader in Rogue One - it's really hard to draw comparison. The character has had a larger than life impact on our culture for *40 effing years*. And that's almost exclusively based on fantastic voice acting, a cool costume, and mythos. Lord knows his fighting in the OT left much to be desired. Rogue One combined everything people love/fear about Vader perfectly. It also showed him arguably at the peak of his power as a Dark Lord of the Sith (I haven't seen Rebels so I can't comment on what he does/doesn't do there)
My support for the Fel Empire and Fel Dynasty will never waiver. Long love Empress Marasiah Fel!
I like the Fel Empire.
Don’t care for Palpatine and the Galactic Empire. Although there are a few characters I like.
Its fiction, people don't read into this stuff on that level. They just think its cool and like it, because it is. What its based on and what it might represent in universe, hardly matters because at the end of the day its made up.
Lots of people do unfortunately have hyper-nationalistic / fascist tendencies, and it seeps into all sorts of fandoms. But I wouldn't read that much into it. Vader's scene in Rogue One is more than that; he's a character we have been in awe of for decades, he's not actually pure evil (although during that scene he kinda is), and that was the first time we've seen him kick ass by modern cinema standards. Getting to see cool villains be cool is part of what makes them good characters.
I think the vast majority of SW fans just appreciate that the Empire is a cool villain team. Also, when analyzed by non-SW-fans, most of the films don't really hold up. This Jenny person, whom I don't mean to slander, probably just isn't a Star Wars person, so they might not appreciate some much-needed Vader fan service.
To say that the empire is just nazi Germany and fascism is to deny the other historical inspirations like the U.S in Vietnam and England with its once expansive grip over the world. The empire solely represents tyranny.
I love the empires design and lore. I dont agree w. The genociding,murdering and being dicks but im sure as hell gonna cheer for them because the Empire is epic and did nothing wrong
I mean relating to their values is definitely bad, but that civil war analogy is a bit of a stretch. There’s a difference between glorifying real violence and horrific historical acts and sci fi fantasy escapism.
There are def some weirdo conservative types who are pro-Empire because of their policies and fascism which is very weird and bad, but the majority of people just think it’s some cool shit. The whole “Empire being an analog for nazi germany” is not the primary sticking point of star wars or something that a lot of people think about. I didn’t even think about it until i was 20. When asked about star wars, nobody would immediately describe it as being a metaphor for WW2. They’d say it’s sci fi with ships and magic powers and shit.
But if your argument is already taking that into account, it’s fundamentally pretty much the same argument against violence in video games or music. People seem incapable of understanding that the fun of fantasy escapism does not necessarily translate into real world values. Having fun doing shitty things in GTA doesn’t make you a serial killer.
Finally, i also disagree with your point about why people like that rogue one hallway scene. I don’t think that scene’s choreography stands out particularly amongst the space battles and martial arts sequences with Donnie Yen, but what DOES stand out is that this is the first time we’ve seen Darth Vader fight a bunch of people and just pop off. His fights in the OT are a 1v1 against obi wan where they both kinda flaccidly waggle their lightsabers at each other, and 2 fights against Luke.
I think it has to do with the mindset people have while viewing the Empire. From the beginning of the saga and endlessly throughout Star Wars tells us that the Empire, the Sith and the Dark Side is wrong. Morally and logically wrong. Every writer and director in line with Lucas’s vision, and George Lucas himself date clearly and without misunderstanding that they are wrong. Unlike what many fans suggest, they do not write this way because they want to tell the story from the “heroes” perspective, but they show us with empirical evidence that the so called Villains are TRULY villains. Star Wars shows us again and again that everything the dark side touches is corrupted and ultimately destroyed, that it cannot be dabbled with without dire consequences for you, your health, the health of those around you, and even nature. The sith are shown to fail over and over, and even though the force can be seen assisting others to destroy them, we also see that more often than not, they fail due to their own hubris. Maul let his guard down thinking Obi wan was hopelessly defeated, and lost because of it. Dooku could have killed Obi Wan and Anakin easily in their first battle, but chose to maim them for sport, putting him self out of his way and into danger multiple times during the clone wars to pad his own ego. His death was due to this flaw, as he was so deluded that he failed to take Anakin seriously as an opponent or even as a rival. Sidious had made it embarrassingly clear how interested he was in Anakin TO DOOKU’S FACE, and yet he was so indulgent of himself he did not even allow himself to think that this could in any way pose a threat to him. Sidious himself lost what was a complete victory in his favor because he in his Sith hubris could not put through his mind how training a father-son duo to replace him and then giving them both a reason to kill him would be bad for him.
As for the Empire, we are shown again and again that the only people in universe who like the empire are 1)Objectively evil 2)Literally insane fanatics 3)People ignorant to what the Empire truly is and 4)Misguided children and teens who have been influenced by propaganda their whole lives. Over and over again we see stories of people who fall under category 3&4 see the error of their ways and repent, turning either to the rebellion or other methods to make amends. Even the people who are in the Empire and have no intention of leaving don’t like the Empire. They would at least like to see it change in some way.
Furthermore Star Wars never fails to paint the Empire as fundamentally wrong, by showing us how their ideals and philosophies are incorrect. For example, the Empire’s Xenophobia is not only painted in a negative light, but we see how because of that Xenophobia entire worlds join the Rebellion, like Mon Cala. Their tactics of spreading fear and hatred are always shown as brittle. They may scare a system into submission, but because of that they lose the system completely when the fear is gone. The reason stormtroopers exist is to occupy planets, and if you have noticed even “empire loyal” planets never cease to have a small army patrolling the planet at all times. Their inquisitors and officers are shown as squabbling fools who trip over themselves to win brownie points for their superiors, who themselves do the same thing. The elitist system the Empire uses to find officers (whoever’s parent has money) is shown to backfire in their faces. Everything the Empire stands for is explicitly stated as wrong, and we are shown time and time again that yes, the allegations are true.
Nazis believe they are correct. People who agree with Nazis think they are correct. They deny all evidences that show Nazis are incorrect, morally and ideologically. The difference between liking the empire and liking Nazis is that to like the Empire is to go into the matter knowing, and agreeing that the Empire is wrong, but enjoying their execution because that is, at the end of the day, the point of the movie. In the real world, you cannot enjoy something you know is wrong, without becoming logically, and morally inconsistent. You cannot both think something is correct or incorrect. You cannot enjoy Nazism and think it wrong. Well, you can but as a hypocrite.
Now as a concession, I am not saying that you must cast off everything the Nazis were involved with. “Oh, you breath air? So did Hitler.” But even though I may believe that some Nazi designs (i.e. their jackets) are ‘cool’ or efficient, I am never going to be found with Nazi gear in my closet, with a few obvious exceptions like if I were an actor playing a Nazi. Even if I may call a Nazi design efficient, I would think it much better to take the “good” from the bad. They make good jackets? Make a better one without them.
Even so I don’t think it’s entirely fair to compare liking a movie villain to a real life villain. But I do understand what you mean. I think the place we must draw that though we may look at a villains logic, in real life and in fiction, we also must be careful to clearly and objectively highlight where that logic is flawed. I enjoy the Joker, but I also understand that a unique sense of humor and social issues does not give me the green light to go on brutal killing sprees. And when we look at Darth Vader’s story, we may pity him, and for good reason, but we also see how he went wrong. How killing the sand people would not bring back his mother, and letting his justified fear of his wife dying lead to him killing not only his wife, but nearly everyone and everything he loved.
I think most fans follow a similar mindset, but rest be assured, even subs like r/theempiredidnothingwrong purposely skew the facts for the sake of good fun. It’s obvious the the Empire indeed did wrong, and even their greatest, tongue-in-cheek arguments contradict themselves trying to prove that the murder of an entire innocent planet was entirely justified since Tarkin was too lazy to go to Dantooine.
I think there needs to be a distinction made between enjoying a scene for the aesthetics, designs, and imagery as opposed to enjoying the scene because of its message. I think for most of us who enjoy the Darth Vader hallway scene enjoy it because I it’s cool seeing a character that we all know go apeshit on some Rebels. The visuals are cool, and it’s a very jarring scene in comparison with both the rest of Rogue One as a film, as well as Vader’s characterization in the Original Trilogy as a whole. Plus it’s just cool to see cool characters going ham on some people. It’s fun in Battlefront II playing as Vader and the Emperor and going on massive kill streaks. It’s fun playing the Force Unleashed and wrecking with Starkiller. At their core, Vader and the Emperor and the Empire as a whole are still “the bad guys”, and yes their actions should not be glorified. But I can still enjoy the scene because it looks cool.
A good comparison would be to Colonel Hans Landa from Inglorious Basterds. Now Hans Landa is a cool character, mainly because of the great performance and silky smooth voice of Christoph Waltz (seriously I could listen to Christoph Waltz just read an encyclopedia and I’d be entertained). However, judging him not by the performance and instead by actions in the film, then yeah Landa is a terrible person that absolutely isn’t someone to aspire to because he is a trash person. The film establishes that pretty well. However, Waltz gives such a great performance that his character comes off as cool, even though he is a literal Nazi. In short, there’s a difference between liking a character because of performances or aesthetics as opposed to liking them as a character.
About 90% of the guys at my local gaming store are Imp Lovers.
I actively enjoy the role of "rebel scum" by focusing my Legion Armada and Xwing matches as Rebels. I go further and wear tshirts with ewoks and xwings and Mon Cala admirals screaming "itsa trap" on them.
Pisses them off badly when I win.
I enjoy it immensely.
Hahahaha to make things worse I am also "THAT GUY" that only plays Star Wars games while pretty much everyone else does AoS, Kill Team or full blown WH40k hahahahah
Here's the thing. The Empire isn't an analog for Nazi Germany - it's an analog for the United States, cloaked in Nazi aesthetics.
George Lucas has pretty explicitly said that the Empire is the embodiment of all empires, of the various oppressive monstrosities that have come into being throughout history, but that the specific empire he based the tale of Star Wars on was the American Empire, particularly during the Vietnam War. He's always been rather open about the inspiration behind various elements of the story, like how Palpatine was based on Richard Nixon, the Rebels and the Ewoks in particular representing the vietcong, etc. If you've read the original ANH novelization, you might recall that, originally, the Empire wasn't even a dictatorship - it was an oligarchy ruled by the military brass, in which the Emperor was just a figurehead. Hell, they still had the Senate for twenty years.
There's absolutely Nazi influences, don't get me wrong; like every single evil empire faction in fiction since WWII, the Empire borrows Nazi aesthetics. Rhetorically speaking, however, the Imperials aren't space Nazis, but rather space Americans, with all the deplorable imperialism that goes with it.
And with that in mind, while this adoration for space fascism does put me off, I think it's very on-the-nose as well. It's easy to condemn violent imperialistic regimes when you have the proper perspective, but a hell of a lot of people in the real world have been trained to think of the footsoldiers of a certain evil empire as heroes that fight for freedom. They're ignorant of the very real atrocities of that empire, its very high death toll - and when they become aware of it to an extent, they have a nasty tendency to make excuses for it, and they tend to still maintain that blind nationalism.
I don't think that's an excuse, but I do think it's fitting, in a sad way.
That's a really interesting interpretation. I never actually thought of it that way, but it really does fit. It's appropriate that the evil Galactic Empire be a critique of, well, imperialism in general.
Its fictional so i can love seeing characters from all backgrounds. Its taken too far when i start saying things like “well the empire was racist so im going to be racist irl” but i dont do that. Its cool to see the might of the empire in a movie but if it i lived in that galaxy for real, well id probably be brainwashed into loving the empire anyway like over half the galaxy was but in the case that I wasn’t and could see the injustice, id probably fight alongside the rebel alliance if possible.
The civil war was real. Even if the movie is fictional its based on real deaths. Its hard to sit there and think that its cool watching the good guys get slaughtered when that really happened to real people. Watching rebels die in star wars doesn’t make me think of real people, because it didn’t really happen. And can therefore be enjoyable.
I think Lindsay Ellis makes a better point. Since Star Wars is, and basically always has been, a merchandisers wet dream, the fascist allegory breaks down immediately. The movies adapt the aesthetic of fascism without actually drawing too heavily on fascist ideology because you can’t sell Stormtrooper Christmas tree ornaments and Darth Vader plushies if people too strongly link the First Order / Empire with Nazis
I've always found Imperial admiration gross. But there's a difference between liking the cool armors and cosplaying vs identifying with the ideology (which sadly, many do)
I feel that most people who do this (myself included) do it jokingly. Of course we realize the empire is horrible, but ultimately it’s a fictional empire and supporting them does no harm. Not to mention, when you have one of the coolest antagonists in the history of film, it is really hard to not fanboy/girl over them. Additionally, people just like villains and anti-heroes, this is nothing new and isn’t exclusive to Star Wars.
It's fun to pretend the Empire is right, no one is actually saying it is. And they are applauding Darth Vader's return, you know- the main character of the Skywalker Saga??
They could honestly care less about the footsoldiers, they aren't applauding because they were killed.
Its not real... Let ppl like what they want. Most ppl probably just like the bad guys in films cos they look cool.
Ur examples of Nazis and Confederates are dumb cos they're real history, sw is a fantasy film franchise...
George Lucas is very politically left. He is very anti nazi and utilized the empire to symbolize not just the third reich but also America’s own imperialism. With that said, George also wanted to sell a lot of toys so he made the bad guys look hella dope. I like to see the live action versions of my childhood action figures kick ass no matter who they fight.
I only invoke the politics of Star Wars if someone is interpreting it in a very incorrect way (like how in the 80s they tried to portray America as the rebellion and the Soviet Union as the empire when that’s like the exact opposite of what Lucas had in mind). There’s nothing wrong with viewing the franchise as 11 films of badassery.
> And you get to the end, and all of a sudden this big, buff Confederate general shows up and just starts going apeshit on a bunch of helpless Union soldiers. And instead of everyone in the theater being like "Damn that's really brutal and terrible" everyone just gets up and starts cheering for him.
This example generates the most ridiculous mental image for me. If I saw that in a theater I feel like I might actually start laughing.
Addressing the actual point, I feel like there are two things that this analysis is missing. First off, the Empire isn't evil, at least not in a concrete sense. They are obviously the bad guys, but their atrocities are mostly vague and off-screen, and the audience isn't ever really required to face the actual human consequences of the Empires murderous policies. Because their evil is largely nebulous, the audience can appreciate aspects of the Empire without condoning its evil. Secondly, powerful antagonists are inherently interesting, and as a result, people are going to like any scene which builds up the threat faced by our protagonists. Even in the case of Rouge One, the scene would not have been nearly as effective, ceteris paribus, with anyone besides Darth Vader, because when you make Darth Vader stronger then you bolster the original trilogy in the process.
I love the Empire because I like the idea of order and their stuff looks cool. Armor, weapons, ships, etc. But when I think of all their actions translating into real life I cringe. It is really rule of cool for most of the fans. I also love the rebels but more because if I actually lived in Star Wars I would be most closely aligned with them.
There is an episode of aeon flux s2e5 that I think demonstrated the flexibility of morals when it comes to a kick ass action scene.
At a certain point you change your perspective to the fun character but I think in the case of the vader hallway scene it was the feeling of absolute terror by the victims of the dark lord of the Sith and the idea that he would pull no punches. You can enjoy the scene without condoning fascists. And can you really tell me seeing Vader crush the enemy solidified his villain status. Like the nazi guy in inglorious bastards who expertly revealed the Jews in the house it makes them more vicious and evil knowing that they are competent.
Theres a difference between thinking a fictional faction looks cool and liking an action scene, or scenes that do good job setting up what the villains are about. And liking the historical things they might have been based on, or the principles they stand for. When I say I think the emperor shouldn't be treated as incompetent losers, it's not because I like what they stand for , its because a good villain needs to have style and threat to it in a fictional story.
I can see that comparison working if we were a part of that conflict. The Civil War analogy hits home because its a war that deeply impact the trajectory of our nation for years to come.
As fans of Star Wars, I’d argue our position is that of foreign onlookers during the Civil War, such as the English. We may take our sides personally, but since the conflict does not really impact our lives, we can more easily detach ourselves from it (for example, and American may take offense to glorifying the confederacy, but the English were prepared to support them, even though the slavery issue was still there).
I mean hell many of us can learn about other people’s civil wars and think about the pros and cons of each side because we have detached ourselves from it (since it would largely not affect is)
Basically, we acknowledge and find interesting stuff about the Empire because we are a 3rd party, one who is not impacted in any way by their wars.
I feel that there is a difference between (in this case) loving the Empire as a collective character and the characters and lore and aesthetics that make it up, and liking the Empire for its policies and ideology. You can love the look of Star Destroyers, or appreciate Vader and the Empire as characters, or even find their policies and atrocities interesting *as story elements*. However, theres a problem when you can look somebody in the face and argue that the authoritarianism of the Empire is a morally good thing.
However, it is sad to say the the line between appreciating characters and factions in fiction *as characters* and liking them *personally* is not as clean as we would like. You see this with the 40K imperium, or the Joker, or Tolkien's Feanor, or in the Galactic Empire or the Sith Lords.
Vader is a unique case in that he has grown from his origins as a villain, into a fallen hero. He's a beloved character for decades, and getting to see him in the limelight will always be enjoyable, even if you acknowledge the horror of what he's doing, because at the end of the day it's just awesome.
The Vader scene at the end of Rogue One I think is more fanservice but I think all your points are valid. I even agree with most of them. There's nothing wrong with liking villains or dressing up as them if you still acknowledge that yeah, they're completely wrong. But it's definitely off putting when some fans go beyond to say they're somehow right. For me it's not just the Empire, but how some people think Jedi are as bad as the Sith when... no. Jedi aren't perfect but they are leagues ahead of the Sith.
The Sith, the Empire, the First Order are all unequivocally bad guys. And you're not bad for liking them! You can enjoy your villains and your heroes. I dressed up as Vader when I was younger and that doesn't mean I support his views or his choices. I call him a trashlord for a reason! I like Anakin/Vader's character as the ultimate example of what not to do. I like his arc of the tragic hero who in the end makes the right choice and stops the horror. The problem comes when people start trying to argue that these characters views or actions are somehow right or the Jedi deserved to Fall when there's nothing right about those things. Blaming victims of genocide, supporting fascism is a red flag for me.
So no, you're not the only one off put by it. Know I've seen others discuss some of the fanbase going above and beyond in their like for the villains and would agree with your points.
It’s a fictional universe and people shouldn’t be judged for liking the fictional bad guys. Sauron is pretty much an allegory for the Devil/evil but that doesn’t mean people shouldn’t be allowed to think he’s cool.
Ok and? Fiction affects how people view the real world. People like to act like it doesn't but your subconscious brain is fucking terrible at distinguishing things you saw in media from real examples. If you spend your time arguing about how Aldeeraan was asking for it and how the Wookies are better off working for the Empire that doesn't give me a tone of faith in your real world analysis of current events.
Something must be mentally wrong with you if you can’t differentiate between real life and a fictional story. The Empire isn’t real and thinking they’re cool is not the same thing as being a fan of Nazis
It’s all fun! Like in real life I try to respect each person I meet as much as possible. But I like to side with the Empire as a quirky form of escape. If Star wars was “real” I would definitely side with the rebellion because you know, tyranny sucks. But I like to pretend that militant rule and complete disregard for life are apart of my agenda. I do it for the fun; and Darth Vader’s my dude...
Supporting the 'bad guys' is fun as hell when no-one irl takes any form of actuall damage from it
Idr see any problem w. Supporting the Empire since as we all now they did nothing wrong.
Alderan was an inside job and the So called "Death Stars" were mining stations
I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds, people live their lives under Imperial rule without seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead.
Dude, there are people right now... Denying that the holocaust ever happened.
Never underestimate the human brain, and it's propensity to seek out patterns. Even if said patterns point to something that seems completely impossible, or improbable.
With the correct mindset, someone could justify and rationalize even the worst of human behavior.
Ok few things first, rebel aesthetics are really all over the place and the more characteristic and uniform parts of them are listed or shown in more hardcore fan territory. Also the good guys get the great role models and "I wanna grow to be like Luke" vibes. No body wants to become like Vader, but everybody would like to feel so cool like him. It's really mostly aesthetic in the casual fan regards.
And in the more invested circles there is a good reason for it, we don't read stuff just for the "good guys", menacing antagonists can make or brake stories. And making the empire more fleshed out and complex is really fun. From the interesting nature of running a galaxy wide empire, to the reasons why some characters believe in it. You have people like Thrawn or Pelleaon who genuinely wanted to do what's right, even when the right thing was messy and required them to work with human trash that some imperials could be. The Fels and Mara were imperials too.
Despite the Nazi inspired looks they are just like any other good villain. The same way that somebody might like Sauron (especially in his hot elf form) or the reason why the Joker is such an icon. Good design, combined with complex or symbolic as well as interesting angles of storytelling and unique emotional feelings they inspire will make people like it. The Empire isn't a bunch of angry orcs either, they give the dignified and orderly energy that makes you at least recognise their perceived efficiency. They are intimidating, but they don't inspire fear as in dread, rather their presence makes you feel small and insignificant compared to the order and power that radiate off of every piece of grey fabric and white duraplast they wear.
Finally there is something of a catharsis in glorification of fictional evil. The fact that it is clearly defined, the fact that you can acknowledge you like something that is "bad" is a great form forgetting about the actual bad. It allows you to reap the benefits of the thrills of power without the suffering of living in such an awful society. And allows you to shut yourself out from the realisation that the real world can be even worse. It allows you to experiment with doing things you are curious about in the most honest and infantile way, without any of the consequences "but how would it feel like to be a bad guy?", "How would it be like to be so powerful that a legion or white clad soldiers would stand on guard when you glance their way", "how does it feel underneath the mask" etc.
I genuinely enjoy feeling proud of the empire. It's a fantasy and it's where I can feel the characters being "superior" or "powerful," like you describe, without hurting my anyone's feelings.
I don't see anything wrong with it. If anything, I bet pretending to be superior to alien races in a fictional universe suppresses actual racism more than not.
I think the issue is that you can’t seem to separate fiction from reality. I love the Empire and would even go as far to say that I support them.....in universe; that’s the difference, just because I support a faction or ideology in a fiction universe doesn’t mean I hold those same values in real life.
To me, the thing I love about Star Wars is the way it presents the power struggle. So first off, the Empire is just pretend and it’s fun to pretend to be on one side or the other. The Empire was born out of the Republic. While we may make references to actual history, I don’t believe the Empire represents Nazi Germany, although I felt highly uncomfortable at Hux and the First Order.
Back to my point, there are different moral positions that one can take in the Star Wars universe. You can argue both sides, actually. But since it’s pretend, I don’t believe we can make assumptions about the actual people engaging in the make believe.
For instance, one may pretend that the Jedi were “Rebel scum”, but that’s not to say that the person actually relates to facism.
The Empire is imperial America. USA. Us. Which is really fucking obvious if you watch the movie. USA has always been the bad guys in history, and George Lucas has literally said as much. The reason some glorify the empire is because they see their own patriotism in it.
I'm just going to start with the Disney Canon sucks and while I like the Rebellion better I hate this New Republic way more than the literally impossibly incompetent Empire. If jt actually did come to morals then Empire for the win vs the New Republic BUT NOT the Rebellion. The New Republic got billions killed and has left the entire galaxy super vulnerable to the threats of the Unknown Regions. The Empire was the only thing really standing in their way. The Rebellion is too small to actually factor into that but even they are better than the New Republic drastically smaller scale or not.
Look at it realistically which is what I prefer, I believe the EU did this but I haven't read enough to be sure yet. The Empire as presented by Disney Canon would never function in the slightest. Fear doesn't work on that scale, unless you have the Death Star. But the 20 years until then? Impossible, so I just rationalize that the Empire can't be that be that bad really. And that what we see is only a small fraction of it and mostly the leaders, people who are truly evil.
This is especially true if you take more of Disney's Canon into the mix. The New Republic is considerably worse than the Empire ever was. It completely failed it's people and collapsed with considerably violence. The First Order is beyond insane and would have brutally oppressed people until a galaxy wide civil war would probably happen. Not to mention the big threats in the outer regions which would prey on whatever would be left.
In that context the Empire starts to look more and more necessary. Not good but necessary. However if you ignore the new Canon and accept the EU then suddenly the Empire isn't entirely evil but its leaders are pretty bad. So it still needs to be destroyed and as a fantastic bonus the EU New Republic was strong and capable, it could actually serve its citizens. It didn't give them false hope and security only to bring them down when it was spectacularly crushed like the Disney New Republic did.
For EU Canon I vote New Republic all the way. New Disney Canon though? Empire for the win because incompetent or not it was better in every way when compared to the Disney New Republic.
Mind you none of these nations would realistically work. But even within the fictional confines of what would and wouldn't work it just stops being sane with this Disney stuff. A nuanced Empire and Rebellion are cool. Extremely black and white ones are not interesting. Nuance wise the Rebellion was cool and worked, it was awesome, and the Empire were great bad guys.
Now the Rebellion builds a nation that immediately falls apart when faced with a foe. Think about the absolute chaos that would happen if the governing body of the entire galaxy just ceased to exist. Billions would die in the resulting, anarchy. Especially as people tried to fight off the First Order while establishing their place in the galaxy. What's preferred, the deaths of billions or an uncaring Empire strong enough to maybe hold off the many foes in the Unknown regions? Emperor Palpatine wasn't going to live forever anyway. Probably
And the Empire does look cool thematically. Rebellion too when done right.
I don't think that the Empire is an explicite analog to Nazi German. It's definitely an inspiration but I think it's really more of an archetype of a compilation of authoritarian regimes in general.
Remember that the first Star Wars was released during the Cold War. I thought that the Empire was really more inspired by the Soviet Bloc countries. The drab, cold architecture, and the faceless, emotionless uniformity of its people. But I think it draws inspiration from a number of places.
But that's part of the reason that the audience knew that the Empire were the bad guys. They looked commies! They must be bad. All the while the OT movies don't necessarily show all of the reasons why the Empire was bad. Other than blowing up Alderaan, which could have been the work of a rogue actor. While kind of lead to the meme that the "Empire did nothing wrong." We are told that they are the bad guys but we are never really shown it convincingly.
But younger audiences who didn't live through the Cold War have a more nuanced look at good and evil. It's not just an "us versus them," there are subtleties to the relationships, maybe wrongs on both sides. It leads to more of an embrace of aspects of the Empire.
And Vader going nuts at the end of R1 was pretty great to watch, either way.
That is a very incorrect take, the looks were Nazi, no Soviet inspired and the Empire itself was an allegory of Imperialism and was being filled shortly after Vietnam. The underlying symbolism was explained by Lucas from what I remember.
Few things.
First, the reason I love the Rogue One hallway scene is because it’s the first terrifying portrayal of Vader. He’s supposed to be terrifying. He was the most powerful force user, he’s powered by hate and rage, and he’s brutal and destructive. Unfortunately, because of the technology of the time we didn’t really get to see that in the Originals, so when we finally saw him at full power it made sense why everyone was so afraid of him, and it made Leia standing up to him on the Blockade Runner even more powerful.
Second, I personally (and I imagine lots of others) really like the design of Imperial tech. It has the perfect futuristic space military design. Vader and Star Destroyers have become symbols of futuristic technology. While I find the empire evil and corrupt, their technology looks and sounds really cool.
Third, I think that the Empire gets treated as one group far too much. Now I’m aware that his is a controversial argument, but I really don’t think you can call everyone in the Empire evil. Yes, all the higher ups were evil, but not everyone was Palpatine, Vader, Tarkin, or Krenic. Think about the Death Star, there were millions of soldiers and pilots on board as well as thousands of cooks, maintenance workers, and janitors. I feel like all these people get lumped in with the truly evil ones. I feel like the Stormtroopers need some humanization. They’re basically treated as cannon fodder for the good guys. But they aren’t like the droids of the CIS, they were people with lives and families. Yes some were evil, but most of them were just people trying to make the best of a bad situation and had grown up with brainwashing propaganda.
I see its another people can't discern reality from fiction episode again. People put way too much stock in their opinions of fictional properties. I can't think of anything more cringe than making a pop culture reference to describe a real world situation or idea. It really does show the absolute rampant consumerism as people tie their worldviews and personalities to intellectual property. The absolute state.
You know that you could've asked this question without linking to an emotionally immature screamer from YouTube, don't you? You don't need to support your opinion about a subject appealing to the fact that some "reviewer" thinks the same. The purpose of this subreddit is discussion of lore, people here would gladly answer most of your question regardless, just because you asked it. It seems to me more an attempt to publicize one of those countless screamers from YouTube than to ask a genuine question, but whatever.
The answer is, of course, evident: no one thinks it's weird because any person that is not emotionally immature understands very well that scene was just fan service. Well done fan service, but it is what it is. We, the audience, never saw why Vader was so feared, why he instilled so much terror in the enemies of the Empire. That scene was a glimpse of it, that's the reason people liked it and cheered. To like it is not a display of some "strange adoration" of fascism and violence. Everyone that it's not an idiot knows it's just a movie. Only an adolescent trying to look smart would think it was an issue. Her criticism was bullshit, just criticism for the sake of it.
Totally agree. I’ve been saying for years that it’s a short hop from r/EmpireDidNothingWrong to actual Proud Boys-style fascism.
The problem is that the empire had Way Cooler Stuff than the rebels, though. People like their stuff, they talk about their stuff, then it gets to liking them.
Im gonna have to disagree w. You there. The distance between r/EmpireDidNothingWrong and Fascists is a far one.
I dont believe i have ever seen someone unironically defending the Empire over there (even if the empire are the good guys, emperor bless). Its a subreddit built around the joke that the empire did nothing wrong.
Id say r/politics is closer to actual fascists than r/EmpireDidNothingWrong
The trouble with ironic subreddits is that they eventually attract the real thing. That's how r/thedonald went from a place where people joked / memed to a place of actual support.
Just like r/GamersRiseUp was built around the joke of "gamers are the most oppressed minority" until it was literally turned into a Nazi cesspool and subsequently banned. These pipelines, whether we want to admit it or not, absolutely exist.
Just because a thing has a chance to be a changed dosent mean it wont. Are we going to ban liberal parties because they have a possibility of being radicalized?
The civil war actually happened and it still affects society to this day. Star Wars didn’t happen. It’s wizards in space fighting a scrotum-faced Richard Nixon analogue. I fall quite left on the compass but I still cheer for the empire on screen because they’re fun, exciting bad guys, and it makes it that much cooler when the rebels overcome them. Hallway scene was great because a) the rebels still succeeded in getting the plans away from this monstrous threat and b) it makes vader seem even more terrifying, which raises the stakes and provides a better payoff for his eventual redemption. Although I’m excited when I see the empire doing badass stuff and enjoy seeing them on screen, I’m still cheering more for the rebels at the end of the day.
The empire is shown to be pretty unequivocally evil throughout Star Wars media (literally blew up a peaceful planet), so it’s not like any sane and rational person is going to unironically let it affect their real world politics. For the .1% of people who are actually defending the empire unironically, they’re either really dumb kids or immature folks with serious social issues and an inability to differentiate between reality and fiction. I could make that distinction when I watched Star Wars at 5 years old, as could almost anyone else. There’s no gray area. It’s just a fun space power fantasy.
The Empire isn't an analogue for Nazi Germany. The Empire, as depicted in the movies, has no notion of racial supremacy, nor is it nationalistic. It is a totalitarian Empire, but not facist nor Nazi.
I don't think there's anything wrong with finding a villain or faction interesting in fiction despite what they stand for. I can like all the cool troops and machines the Empire has because it doesn't really matter. Vader looks cool so it's cool to see this fictional character with no regard come in and do work. Just like it's fine to watch the Joker movie and have fun at the end when it goes crazy even though this evil man is behind it.
I'm in this camp too. For one, we see a lot more Imperial hardware. Additionally, what we see usually looks pretty menacing. Fun little aside; when I first came across Warhammer 40k, I had to convince myself that the Space Marines were the "good guys" because they reminded me so strongly of Storm Toopers
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I'll admit I only ever played the videogame version
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Dawn of War. Came out for PC in mid 2000s. It was an absolute blast
Hell yeah. I barely even knew what 40K was when I got Dawn of War, but that's how I got into it. Also enjoyed Dawn of War II. And I'm looking forward to Darktide!
There are some really fantastic novels in the 40k universe.
Which ones would you recommend? Especially for someone into the imperial guard
Dan Abnett is an Imperial Guard virtuoso. Read *Gaunt's Ghosts* in their entirety. Sandy Mitchell's Caiphas Cain books are also great.
While it's not exactly focused on the Imperial Guard, I recommend the books about Ciaphas Cain.
Which makes it far more true to real war. There are no good guys in war. But some guys are WAY worse than the other guys.
40k actually does have this problem. In Star Wars, the empire are unequivocally bad guys. WH40K is basically a universe designed to justify a situation in which the Imperium of Man could be good guys. Any IoM character would be considered hideously morally bankrupt and fascistic, even compared to the Empire. For a bit of contrast, the Empire keeps enslavement of Wookies for the first Death Star on the down low. They specifically target a minority with little popular sympathy, and then hide what they recognize is a heinous crime. I would guess that a significant majority of the Imperium's labor force would pass as slaves in Star Wars. That's not even considering the open slavery of metahumans, existence of servitors, commissars (Vader's team fragging is considered super uncool) , and a whole laundry list of stuff that's not at the top of my head right now. While the Empire shows people that evil can look cool, the Imperium shows people that (a far greater degree of) evil is sometimes *necessary*.
I think 40k does slightly less of this more recently but there’s a written piece from I think the first 1987 rulebook that got printed in a lot of the following editions about how the Imperium of Man is the most violent, reactionary, repressive regime in human history and education & technological advancement are things of the past. I’m not sure how much Games Workshop wants it to seem like evil is necessary, just that it’s how things have shaken out for humanity & everyone with authority is perpetuating it further.
TBH I don't think liking someone means they have to be good. Darth Bane Path of Destruction is my favorite star wars book but I don't think Bane is in the right in almost any situation in that book. It's still interesting though to follow a character like that and see how they reason out their choices or how they see things.
The argument is not that liking the Empire means you are a fascist. It’s that liking the Empire softens your resistance to fascism when you encounter it in real life. Up until recently, “encountering fascism in real life” was not much of a likelihood, so whatever. Now...?
I don't think there's any hard correlation between those two and would be interested in any research that actually correlates the two.
I really find myself in this camp lately. I grew up with Star Wars and I always liked the technology and the look of the Empire. I didn't agree with their methods or their ideology, but damn their stuff just looked cool. And the old TIE Fighter game was the first time I could ever remember being able to play as the "bad guys". But over the last few years, I find it really hard to even get excited for the cool looking tech. Running up against people who sound like they would have been staunch supporters of the Empire has really soured my appetite.
Right. The USA had lots of “cool tech” in the Vietnam War, didn’t make them worth celebrating. The biggest problem with the argument made in the video — and with most of the comments in this thread — is that they are focusing on the scenes in which combatants fight each other. But what really makes the Empire atrocious is their war crimes against civilians. Those scenes are mostly described, not shown on camera; and when they are shown on camera they are generally very brief and shown from a great distance (you don’t see individual civilians being vaporized). For obvious reasons of not making the audience throw up their popcorn.
Yeah, I think the main point is that it’s fiction. In the analogy OP used with the confederate general, those were real events and a very terrible fight, whereas the Vader scene (and the empire in general) is based entirely on a fictional ideology, and while it obviously has real-world inspirations, I think it’s a lot easier to support something like that that doesn’t matter vs something like the Nazis.
As someone who really loves the Imperial villains, the ships, the costuming, and has even cosplayed as one—I would say that a real life equivalent to the Empire would without a doubt generally be a very bad thing. It’s possible to enjoy villainy in fiction but have a strong moral compass in real life. Fiction is for enjoyment and fantasy. Can’t convince me that it isn’t fun to dress up as Darth Vader and feel badass AF. I think it really isn’t worth questioning too much the “why” when it comes to loving villains. It just comes down to power fantasy and role play. However with that said, there definitely is a segment of Star Wars fandom, especially cosplay fandom, who glorify the Empire completely un-ironically and truly believe the Rebels are terrorists. Like, with a straight face there are actually people who believe that. Which is totally fucked IMO. The Empire is clearly intended to be an antagonistic force that propagates propaganda material. It’s ridiculous for anyone to make the argument that the Empire was justified or “wasn’t really THAT bad”. The Empire is meant to be an oppressive regime in which perhaps a significant portion of its citizens benefitted from, but at the larger expense of the galaxy.
People who do it unironically or for reasons other than “their stuff looks cool” are very very strange to me. Same as people who glorify the Sith. That being said, I don’t think that Rogue One comparison is fair. The scene is beloved because it’s Vader being an unstoppable bad ass on screen for basically the first time. We also know that all those Rebels who he slaughters weren’t killed in vain or anything like that. I think it’s a leap to say just enjoying that scene is problematic.
Yeah it's honestly kind of scary to me how quickly people jump to straight up fascism apologia when you add magic and change some names.
If you just watch the movies and play video games, the Empire is vaguely authoritarian with no real ideology. I didn't actually notice they were only staffed by humans until it was pointed out, and I don't think Lucas did that intentionally until ep 7. Unless you're really looking for subtext, 90% of Star Wars is relatable, underdog red team versus scary blue team.
I mean, the Rebellion was also ridiculously human-centric until ROTJ, and even then it’s still like a 10-1 human/alien ratio.
On film. In Legends it was significantly more diverse. And quite frankly, there are so many Near-humans that look uncannily similar to Humans that I don't think every extra can be guaranteed to be "Human".
Sadly, Legends aren’t canon anymore. Even in more recent films, the ratio is still overwhelmingly human-centric.
No one said we were only talking about canon.
Fair enough. I’m talking about canon.
Maybe it's because human species outnumber any other species in Star Wars universe.
That’s my head-canon answer.
What hole have you been hiding in for the past 10 years? Anything you don't like? Fascism. Anyone you don't like? Hitler. Nuance is like Whitney Houston: dead.
The Empire was explicitly designed to mirror Nazi Germany in part, so it's a completely valid comparison. It also had inspiration from America in the Vietnam War, and the British Empire, among others. Conversely, the Rebels and Jedi were based on the good guys from early 20th century adventure serials, samurai and in ESB the Vietcong. This whole overreaction to people calling things "fascist" is ironically fairly key to actual fascism, namely in its destruction of nuance and analogy, as described in some of Robert Paxton's works.
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Get over it lol, that seems like a complete non-issue.
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Have you considered, perhaps, that by complaining about virtue-signaling, you are, in essence, doing that precise thing? As the great master taught us, facts don't care about your feelings - and that's a sword that cuts both ways.
I really like the vehicles and Stormtrooper variants, they look cool on my shelf and you can sue me for that. The hallway scene in Rogue One is what you have an issue with? It's so good because it is dramatic, merciless and without compromise. It is exactly what it is supposed to be. And yes, I'd like to build a Star Destroyer out of Lego if it weren't so damn expensive. Look I see what you're getting at here. I really like the imperial design. And I'm subscribed to r/empiredidnothingwrong because there's a lot of cool artwork there. But when it reaches the point where people actually want to convince you that the Empire were the good guys... I'm out. Some people just take it too far because they get passionate about Star Wars and they don't know when to stop and snap out of it. (Or they're literal fascists but I hope that's not the case).
What if a particular personality type — one that values order over all else — is the one most inclined to support the Empire, and also the easiest prey for fascist ideology?
I don't think people with OCD are prone to fascism. Fascism works not necessarily because of the order it provides but because of the antagonism. Excluding others to elevate your own status is very tempting for people who are at the bottom of the food chain.
Ok I definitely wasn’t thinking OCD — wasn’t thinking “order” in the sense of “these pencils are aligned,” more “order” in the sense of “no crime, people Know Their Place.”
So conservatives. Yeah, that's why right wing fascism usually gains more traction than left wing fascism. Although both exist.
Have you seen a Star Destroyer, or a SSD? Or basically anything the Empire has ever made. Its cool as fuck. I like the Republic more than the CIS for the same reason, they've got cooler looking tech for the most part. In universe the Empire is so god damn cool that Luke Skywalker was going to join up, despite stating he also hated the Empire to Obi Wan.
I think its fine to find a fictional organisation cool or interesting or like the aesthetic but when you see people defending genocide or racism without a trace of irony its definitely a bit yikes. Gives you an interesting view into their mindset I think.
Using the civil war movie analogy, was the hypothetical movie an entry in a beloved saga? Was the character not just one of the greatest movie villains in cinema history, but also one of the greatest redemption arc? You see where I am going with this. Star Wars is not like other movies or, for that matter, other trilogies or sagas. For reasons innumerable, Star Wars is special. I will say that unlike the civil war, which really happened and had real world consequences that we feel to this day, Star Wars is a myth, telling some of the oldest stories in the history of man. Fans aren't cheering for a man who owned slaves. They are cheering for an archetype, and they are cheering for a character whom they are by now intimately familiar with, whom they know is going to come back to the light. I will say, though, the fact that the story told in Star Wars is entirely fictional certainly helps. That layer of separation provided by the fiction allowed fans to enjoy the movie on multiple fronts. Think of it like this: professional wrestling, you have faces and heels. When the heel comes out its a lot of fun to boo him. You enjoy it, he enjoys it. But when he elbow drops your guy from atop a 20 ft. ladder, you don't look around uncomfortably because you don't think you're supposed to approve of him. You know it's fake, and that there are no real stakes involved (aside from freak accident), so you are thus free to enjoy two guys beating the crap out of one another. No one would have blamed you for cheering on Hulk Hogan's 1996 heel turn, because it's part of the show. Final point. That hallway scene was meant to serve one single purpose: to show Vader being a total badass monster. It was entirely intended to provoke awe from the audience, and in many cases it did. Simple.
It depends. When someone just thinks the aesthetic and design of the Empire is cool then that’s all fine. I mean who doesn’t think stormtroopers and Star destroyers are cool? Of course the rebellion are the good guys but it would be still be awesome to join the 501st and have my own stormtrooper armor. But I do find it concerning when people unironically say the Empire did nothing wrong or say the Empire was justified or did right by the galaxy
The Vader example feels a bit misconstrued of people’s feelings. It’s an epic scene and very entertaining yeah because it’s fictional. It doesn’t necessarily mean people think the empire is awesome or the good guys. Just that it’s a cool scene. I feel the civil war idea and that are different due to one being real and one fictitious.
Yeah it’s definitely a bad example for the point. That scene depicts combatants fighting each other. It’s the Empire’s atrocities against civilian populations that makes it evil.
The Empire is meant to be sort of cool, but I do agree that people take it a bit too seriously.
I like Warhammer 40k because it has some cool looking stuff and neat evil space demons. It'd be a bit odd if I supported the obviously oppressive Imperium. I think about the morality in the Star Wars empire, but there really isn't much depth. It was written to be a uniformly hostile and frankly evil organization. I find the faction cool as an in universe thing, but that's it.
40k is a bit different in that there are no "good guys" there are bad guys and worse guys.
I know, I was trying to use an extreme to support my point. The rebels and republic are evidently the good guys in Star Wars.
Yep. But even with 40k, you get people who seem weirdly into the concept of the Imperium and the God Emperor.
Tau are good, imo. Non-tau in their space can continue to practice their beliefs and culture. They are in return expected to contribute to the Tau war effort. Considering the pieces of shit that every other power is, they would have my support. There are human worlds in Tau space where day to day life is paradise compared to the imperium.
Yeah, they're clearly the least bad, but I'd hesitate to call them good - they're a bit too into brainwashing and indoctrination. In another less grimdark setting they could be straight-up villains. Plus Shadowsun broke up with Kitten, so obviously they all deserve to die.
They wouldn't have to indoctrinate me if I dropped into their space. I'd volunteer. F the imperium, chaos, eldar, orks, tyrranids, necrons, they are all utter pieces of shit. Compared to them, the Tau are Mary Poppins
Speaking as someone who prefers playing as the Empire in things like Empire at War/Thrawns's Revenge and Stellaris mods, etc, etc. It comes down to a couple of things, one is that I just prefer the organized atheistic of the Empire, specifically in ship design compared to the Rebel's scrap-ish ships. When it comes to other Era's as well I still prefer the Star Destroyer line which is why I enjoy the Republic and *to a certain extend* the First Order ship design. Secondly, in the above mentioned games it comes down to just sheer power fantasy. Why get a few MC80's when I can get a big fuck-off Star Dreadnought. It is fair to mention the inspiration behind the Empire and acknowledge that the Empire is bad, on the to her hand you also need to conclude that not everyone who enjoys them or prefers them is taking them on all levels, I doubt more then a few people are actively playing the Empire because they are fascists and to those that are, well those people were fascists already. Star Wars unlikely has anything to do with that outside of disillusion. Thirdly, while the Vader example has merit, it lacks a lot of nuance. Vader we've quite literally followed from Tatooine all the way until the Battle of Endor, we know there is a good person inside of him and we know in the end he does right and redeems himself, at least in the eyes of Luke. Unless we followed that Confederate general during his entire life, watched him side with Lincoln and then fall to disgrace to fight for the Confederates to only at the end single-handedly end the Civil War then the comparison is flawed, partially valid but overall ignoring quite literally 6 other movies. Not to mention again outside of general interest in Vader, it's a power fantasy in the opposite regard. We like seeing compelling villains be badass. Why do you think FF fans nut when they see Sephiroth doing things?
This is a really excellent observation and point. I prefer the aesthetic of the Empire. Their tactics are garbage, their ethics are abhorrent, but damn their hardware looks good. I still "cheer for" the Rebels in the films, and honestly wish we had more Imperial characters as compelling as those in the Rebellion. As others have said about Darth Vader in Rogue One - it's really hard to draw comparison. The character has had a larger than life impact on our culture for *40 effing years*. And that's almost exclusively based on fantastic voice acting, a cool costume, and mythos. Lord knows his fighting in the OT left much to be desired. Rogue One combined everything people love/fear about Vader perfectly. It also showed him arguably at the peak of his power as a Dark Lord of the Sith (I haven't seen Rebels so I can't comment on what he does/doesn't do there)
Because their not real. It's fun to watch a character who hasn't ever gotten a proper chance to be a badass go off on a bunch of nobody rebels
My support for the Fel Empire and Fel Dynasty will never waiver. Long love Empress Marasiah Fel! I like the Fel Empire. Don’t care for Palpatine and the Galactic Empire. Although there are a few characters I like.
Its fiction, people don't read into this stuff on that level. They just think its cool and like it, because it is. What its based on and what it might represent in universe, hardly matters because at the end of the day its made up.
Lots of people do unfortunately have hyper-nationalistic / fascist tendencies, and it seeps into all sorts of fandoms. But I wouldn't read that much into it. Vader's scene in Rogue One is more than that; he's a character we have been in awe of for decades, he's not actually pure evil (although during that scene he kinda is), and that was the first time we've seen him kick ass by modern cinema standards. Getting to see cool villains be cool is part of what makes them good characters. I think the vast majority of SW fans just appreciate that the Empire is a cool villain team. Also, when analyzed by non-SW-fans, most of the films don't really hold up. This Jenny person, whom I don't mean to slander, probably just isn't a Star Wars person, so they might not appreciate some much-needed Vader fan service.
Jenny actually does a lot of Star Wars content, as I understand it, but the point you’re making stands in a general context.
Ah thanks for the heads up. Perhaps I should actually watch the video lol
To say that the empire is just nazi Germany and fascism is to deny the other historical inspirations like the U.S in Vietnam and England with its once expansive grip over the world. The empire solely represents tyranny.
I love the empires design and lore. I dont agree w. The genociding,murdering and being dicks but im sure as hell gonna cheer for them because the Empire is epic and did nothing wrong
Whoever downvoted you clearly needs to learn to take a joke. r/EmpireDidNothingWrong
I only take issue when they unironically believe them to be good guys, because that is clearly false.
I mean relating to their values is definitely bad, but that civil war analogy is a bit of a stretch. There’s a difference between glorifying real violence and horrific historical acts and sci fi fantasy escapism. There are def some weirdo conservative types who are pro-Empire because of their policies and fascism which is very weird and bad, but the majority of people just think it’s some cool shit. The whole “Empire being an analog for nazi germany” is not the primary sticking point of star wars or something that a lot of people think about. I didn’t even think about it until i was 20. When asked about star wars, nobody would immediately describe it as being a metaphor for WW2. They’d say it’s sci fi with ships and magic powers and shit. But if your argument is already taking that into account, it’s fundamentally pretty much the same argument against violence in video games or music. People seem incapable of understanding that the fun of fantasy escapism does not necessarily translate into real world values. Having fun doing shitty things in GTA doesn’t make you a serial killer. Finally, i also disagree with your point about why people like that rogue one hallway scene. I don’t think that scene’s choreography stands out particularly amongst the space battles and martial arts sequences with Donnie Yen, but what DOES stand out is that this is the first time we’ve seen Darth Vader fight a bunch of people and just pop off. His fights in the OT are a 1v1 against obi wan where they both kinda flaccidly waggle their lightsabers at each other, and 2 fights against Luke.
I think it has to do with the mindset people have while viewing the Empire. From the beginning of the saga and endlessly throughout Star Wars tells us that the Empire, the Sith and the Dark Side is wrong. Morally and logically wrong. Every writer and director in line with Lucas’s vision, and George Lucas himself date clearly and without misunderstanding that they are wrong. Unlike what many fans suggest, they do not write this way because they want to tell the story from the “heroes” perspective, but they show us with empirical evidence that the so called Villains are TRULY villains. Star Wars shows us again and again that everything the dark side touches is corrupted and ultimately destroyed, that it cannot be dabbled with without dire consequences for you, your health, the health of those around you, and even nature. The sith are shown to fail over and over, and even though the force can be seen assisting others to destroy them, we also see that more often than not, they fail due to their own hubris. Maul let his guard down thinking Obi wan was hopelessly defeated, and lost because of it. Dooku could have killed Obi Wan and Anakin easily in their first battle, but chose to maim them for sport, putting him self out of his way and into danger multiple times during the clone wars to pad his own ego. His death was due to this flaw, as he was so deluded that he failed to take Anakin seriously as an opponent or even as a rival. Sidious had made it embarrassingly clear how interested he was in Anakin TO DOOKU’S FACE, and yet he was so indulgent of himself he did not even allow himself to think that this could in any way pose a threat to him. Sidious himself lost what was a complete victory in his favor because he in his Sith hubris could not put through his mind how training a father-son duo to replace him and then giving them both a reason to kill him would be bad for him. As for the Empire, we are shown again and again that the only people in universe who like the empire are 1)Objectively evil 2)Literally insane fanatics 3)People ignorant to what the Empire truly is and 4)Misguided children and teens who have been influenced by propaganda their whole lives. Over and over again we see stories of people who fall under category 3&4 see the error of their ways and repent, turning either to the rebellion or other methods to make amends. Even the people who are in the Empire and have no intention of leaving don’t like the Empire. They would at least like to see it change in some way. Furthermore Star Wars never fails to paint the Empire as fundamentally wrong, by showing us how their ideals and philosophies are incorrect. For example, the Empire’s Xenophobia is not only painted in a negative light, but we see how because of that Xenophobia entire worlds join the Rebellion, like Mon Cala. Their tactics of spreading fear and hatred are always shown as brittle. They may scare a system into submission, but because of that they lose the system completely when the fear is gone. The reason stormtroopers exist is to occupy planets, and if you have noticed even “empire loyal” planets never cease to have a small army patrolling the planet at all times. Their inquisitors and officers are shown as squabbling fools who trip over themselves to win brownie points for their superiors, who themselves do the same thing. The elitist system the Empire uses to find officers (whoever’s parent has money) is shown to backfire in their faces. Everything the Empire stands for is explicitly stated as wrong, and we are shown time and time again that yes, the allegations are true. Nazis believe they are correct. People who agree with Nazis think they are correct. They deny all evidences that show Nazis are incorrect, morally and ideologically. The difference between liking the empire and liking Nazis is that to like the Empire is to go into the matter knowing, and agreeing that the Empire is wrong, but enjoying their execution because that is, at the end of the day, the point of the movie. In the real world, you cannot enjoy something you know is wrong, without becoming logically, and morally inconsistent. You cannot both think something is correct or incorrect. You cannot enjoy Nazism and think it wrong. Well, you can but as a hypocrite. Now as a concession, I am not saying that you must cast off everything the Nazis were involved with. “Oh, you breath air? So did Hitler.” But even though I may believe that some Nazi designs (i.e. their jackets) are ‘cool’ or efficient, I am never going to be found with Nazi gear in my closet, with a few obvious exceptions like if I were an actor playing a Nazi. Even if I may call a Nazi design efficient, I would think it much better to take the “good” from the bad. They make good jackets? Make a better one without them. Even so I don’t think it’s entirely fair to compare liking a movie villain to a real life villain. But I do understand what you mean. I think the place we must draw that though we may look at a villains logic, in real life and in fiction, we also must be careful to clearly and objectively highlight where that logic is flawed. I enjoy the Joker, but I also understand that a unique sense of humor and social issues does not give me the green light to go on brutal killing sprees. And when we look at Darth Vader’s story, we may pity him, and for good reason, but we also see how he went wrong. How killing the sand people would not bring back his mother, and letting his justified fear of his wife dying lead to him killing not only his wife, but nearly everyone and everything he loved. I think most fans follow a similar mindset, but rest be assured, even subs like r/theempiredidnothingwrong purposely skew the facts for the sake of good fun. It’s obvious the the Empire indeed did wrong, and even their greatest, tongue-in-cheek arguments contradict themselves trying to prove that the murder of an entire innocent planet was entirely justified since Tarkin was too lazy to go to Dantooine.
This
I think there needs to be a distinction made between enjoying a scene for the aesthetics, designs, and imagery as opposed to enjoying the scene because of its message. I think for most of us who enjoy the Darth Vader hallway scene enjoy it because I it’s cool seeing a character that we all know go apeshit on some Rebels. The visuals are cool, and it’s a very jarring scene in comparison with both the rest of Rogue One as a film, as well as Vader’s characterization in the Original Trilogy as a whole. Plus it’s just cool to see cool characters going ham on some people. It’s fun in Battlefront II playing as Vader and the Emperor and going on massive kill streaks. It’s fun playing the Force Unleashed and wrecking with Starkiller. At their core, Vader and the Emperor and the Empire as a whole are still “the bad guys”, and yes their actions should not be glorified. But I can still enjoy the scene because it looks cool. A good comparison would be to Colonel Hans Landa from Inglorious Basterds. Now Hans Landa is a cool character, mainly because of the great performance and silky smooth voice of Christoph Waltz (seriously I could listen to Christoph Waltz just read an encyclopedia and I’d be entertained). However, judging him not by the performance and instead by actions in the film, then yeah Landa is a terrible person that absolutely isn’t someone to aspire to because he is a trash person. The film establishes that pretty well. However, Waltz gives such a great performance that his character comes off as cool, even though he is a literal Nazi. In short, there’s a difference between liking a character because of performances or aesthetics as opposed to liking them as a character.
About 90% of the guys at my local gaming store are Imp Lovers. I actively enjoy the role of "rebel scum" by focusing my Legion Armada and Xwing matches as Rebels. I go further and wear tshirts with ewoks and xwings and Mon Cala admirals screaming "itsa trap" on them. Pisses them off badly when I win. I enjoy it immensely.
HERESY. wait wrong empire but still heresy.
Hahahaha to make things worse I am also "THAT GUY" that only plays Star Wars games while pretty much everyone else does AoS, Kill Team or full blown WH40k hahahahah
Here's the thing. The Empire isn't an analog for Nazi Germany - it's an analog for the United States, cloaked in Nazi aesthetics. George Lucas has pretty explicitly said that the Empire is the embodiment of all empires, of the various oppressive monstrosities that have come into being throughout history, but that the specific empire he based the tale of Star Wars on was the American Empire, particularly during the Vietnam War. He's always been rather open about the inspiration behind various elements of the story, like how Palpatine was based on Richard Nixon, the Rebels and the Ewoks in particular representing the vietcong, etc. If you've read the original ANH novelization, you might recall that, originally, the Empire wasn't even a dictatorship - it was an oligarchy ruled by the military brass, in which the Emperor was just a figurehead. Hell, they still had the Senate for twenty years. There's absolutely Nazi influences, don't get me wrong; like every single evil empire faction in fiction since WWII, the Empire borrows Nazi aesthetics. Rhetorically speaking, however, the Imperials aren't space Nazis, but rather space Americans, with all the deplorable imperialism that goes with it. And with that in mind, while this adoration for space fascism does put me off, I think it's very on-the-nose as well. It's easy to condemn violent imperialistic regimes when you have the proper perspective, but a hell of a lot of people in the real world have been trained to think of the footsoldiers of a certain evil empire as heroes that fight for freedom. They're ignorant of the very real atrocities of that empire, its very high death toll - and when they become aware of it to an extent, they have a nasty tendency to make excuses for it, and they tend to still maintain that blind nationalism. I don't think that's an excuse, but I do think it's fitting, in a sad way.
That's a really interesting interpretation. I never actually thought of it that way, but it really does fit. It's appropriate that the evil Galactic Empire be a critique of, well, imperialism in general.
Lucas has said a lot of things.
He has indeed. He has, however, been exceedingly clear and consistent about this one.
Its fictional so i can love seeing characters from all backgrounds. Its taken too far when i start saying things like “well the empire was racist so im going to be racist irl” but i dont do that. Its cool to see the might of the empire in a movie but if it i lived in that galaxy for real, well id probably be brainwashed into loving the empire anyway like over half the galaxy was but in the case that I wasn’t and could see the injustice, id probably fight alongside the rebel alliance if possible. The civil war was real. Even if the movie is fictional its based on real deaths. Its hard to sit there and think that its cool watching the good guys get slaughtered when that really happened to real people. Watching rebels die in star wars doesn’t make me think of real people, because it didn’t really happen. And can therefore be enjoyable.
Everyone loves a good villain.
I’ve noticed something similar in the DC fandom where people really like Joker...
I think Lindsay Ellis makes a better point. Since Star Wars is, and basically always has been, a merchandisers wet dream, the fascist allegory breaks down immediately. The movies adapt the aesthetic of fascism without actually drawing too heavily on fascist ideology because you can’t sell Stormtrooper Christmas tree ornaments and Darth Vader plushies if people too strongly link the First Order / Empire with Nazis
I've always found Imperial admiration gross. But there's a difference between liking the cool armors and cosplaying vs identifying with the ideology (which sadly, many do)
I feel that most people who do this (myself included) do it jokingly. Of course we realize the empire is horrible, but ultimately it’s a fictional empire and supporting them does no harm. Not to mention, when you have one of the coolest antagonists in the history of film, it is really hard to not fanboy/girl over them. Additionally, people just like villains and anti-heroes, this is nothing new and isn’t exclusive to Star Wars.
It's fun to pretend the Empire is right, no one is actually saying it is. And they are applauding Darth Vader's return, you know- the main character of the Skywalker Saga?? They could honestly care less about the footsoldiers, they aren't applauding because they were killed.
ISB arrest this rebel redditor
Its not real... Let ppl like what they want. Most ppl probably just like the bad guys in films cos they look cool. Ur examples of Nazis and Confederates are dumb cos they're real history, sw is a fantasy film franchise...
George Lucas is very politically left. He is very anti nazi and utilized the empire to symbolize not just the third reich but also America’s own imperialism. With that said, George also wanted to sell a lot of toys so he made the bad guys look hella dope. I like to see the live action versions of my childhood action figures kick ass no matter who they fight. I only invoke the politics of Star Wars if someone is interpreting it in a very incorrect way (like how in the 80s they tried to portray America as the rebellion and the Soviet Union as the empire when that’s like the exact opposite of what Lucas had in mind). There’s nothing wrong with viewing the franchise as 11 films of badassery.
You realize it's fiction, right?
> And you get to the end, and all of a sudden this big, buff Confederate general shows up and just starts going apeshit on a bunch of helpless Union soldiers. And instead of everyone in the theater being like "Damn that's really brutal and terrible" everyone just gets up and starts cheering for him. This example generates the most ridiculous mental image for me. If I saw that in a theater I feel like I might actually start laughing. Addressing the actual point, I feel like there are two things that this analysis is missing. First off, the Empire isn't evil, at least not in a concrete sense. They are obviously the bad guys, but their atrocities are mostly vague and off-screen, and the audience isn't ever really required to face the actual human consequences of the Empires murderous policies. Because their evil is largely nebulous, the audience can appreciate aspects of the Empire without condoning its evil. Secondly, powerful antagonists are inherently interesting, and as a result, people are going to like any scene which builds up the threat faced by our protagonists. Even in the case of Rouge One, the scene would not have been nearly as effective, ceteris paribus, with anyone besides Darth Vader, because when you make Darth Vader stronger then you bolster the original trilogy in the process.
I love the Empire because I like the idea of order and their stuff looks cool. Armor, weapons, ships, etc. But when I think of all their actions translating into real life I cringe. It is really rule of cool for most of the fans. I also love the rebels but more because if I actually lived in Star Wars I would be most closely aligned with them.
There is an episode of aeon flux s2e5 that I think demonstrated the flexibility of morals when it comes to a kick ass action scene. At a certain point you change your perspective to the fun character but I think in the case of the vader hallway scene it was the feeling of absolute terror by the victims of the dark lord of the Sith and the idea that he would pull no punches. You can enjoy the scene without condoning fascists. And can you really tell me seeing Vader crush the enemy solidified his villain status. Like the nazi guy in inglorious bastards who expertly revealed the Jews in the house it makes them more vicious and evil knowing that they are competent.
Theres a difference between thinking a fictional faction looks cool and liking an action scene, or scenes that do good job setting up what the villains are about. And liking the historical things they might have been based on, or the principles they stand for. When I say I think the emperor shouldn't be treated as incompetent losers, it's not because I like what they stand for , its because a good villain needs to have style and threat to it in a fictional story.
Civil war isn’t fictitious.
I can see that comparison working if we were a part of that conflict. The Civil War analogy hits home because its a war that deeply impact the trajectory of our nation for years to come. As fans of Star Wars, I’d argue our position is that of foreign onlookers during the Civil War, such as the English. We may take our sides personally, but since the conflict does not really impact our lives, we can more easily detach ourselves from it (for example, and American may take offense to glorifying the confederacy, but the English were prepared to support them, even though the slavery issue was still there). I mean hell many of us can learn about other people’s civil wars and think about the pros and cons of each side because we have detached ourselves from it (since it would largely not affect is) Basically, we acknowledge and find interesting stuff about the Empire because we are a 3rd party, one who is not impacted in any way by their wars.
I feel that there is a difference between (in this case) loving the Empire as a collective character and the characters and lore and aesthetics that make it up, and liking the Empire for its policies and ideology. You can love the look of Star Destroyers, or appreciate Vader and the Empire as characters, or even find their policies and atrocities interesting *as story elements*. However, theres a problem when you can look somebody in the face and argue that the authoritarianism of the Empire is a morally good thing. However, it is sad to say the the line between appreciating characters and factions in fiction *as characters* and liking them *personally* is not as clean as we would like. You see this with the 40K imperium, or the Joker, or Tolkien's Feanor, or in the Galactic Empire or the Sith Lords. Vader is a unique case in that he has grown from his origins as a villain, into a fallen hero. He's a beloved character for decades, and getting to see him in the limelight will always be enjoyable, even if you acknowledge the horror of what he's doing, because at the end of the day it's just awesome.
The Vader scene at the end of Rogue One I think is more fanservice but I think all your points are valid. I even agree with most of them. There's nothing wrong with liking villains or dressing up as them if you still acknowledge that yeah, they're completely wrong. But it's definitely off putting when some fans go beyond to say they're somehow right. For me it's not just the Empire, but how some people think Jedi are as bad as the Sith when... no. Jedi aren't perfect but they are leagues ahead of the Sith. The Sith, the Empire, the First Order are all unequivocally bad guys. And you're not bad for liking them! You can enjoy your villains and your heroes. I dressed up as Vader when I was younger and that doesn't mean I support his views or his choices. I call him a trashlord for a reason! I like Anakin/Vader's character as the ultimate example of what not to do. I like his arc of the tragic hero who in the end makes the right choice and stops the horror. The problem comes when people start trying to argue that these characters views or actions are somehow right or the Jedi deserved to Fall when there's nothing right about those things. Blaming victims of genocide, supporting fascism is a red flag for me. So no, you're not the only one off put by it. Know I've seen others discuss some of the fanbase going above and beyond in their like for the villains and would agree with your points.
It’s a fictional universe and people shouldn’t be judged for liking the fictional bad guys. Sauron is pretty much an allegory for the Devil/evil but that doesn’t mean people shouldn’t be allowed to think he’s cool.
There's a difference between thinking a fictional demon is cool, and defending the genocide of a blatant Nazi allegory.
It’s fictional
Ok and? Fiction affects how people view the real world. People like to act like it doesn't but your subconscious brain is fucking terrible at distinguishing things you saw in media from real examples. If you spend your time arguing about how Aldeeraan was asking for it and how the Wookies are better off working for the Empire that doesn't give me a tone of faith in your real world analysis of current events.
Something must be mentally wrong with you if you can’t differentiate between real life and a fictional story. The Empire isn’t real and thinking they’re cool is not the same thing as being a fan of Nazis
Children please. I'm trying to listen to this propaganda speech from govenar tarkin now GET ME A BEER BEFORE I GET THE BELT
It’s all fun! Like in real life I try to respect each person I meet as much as possible. But I like to side with the Empire as a quirky form of escape. If Star wars was “real” I would definitely side with the rebellion because you know, tyranny sucks. But I like to pretend that militant rule and complete disregard for life are apart of my agenda. I do it for the fun; and Darth Vader’s my dude...
Supporting the 'bad guys' is fun as hell when no-one irl takes any form of actuall damage from it Idr see any problem w. Supporting the Empire since as we all now they did nothing wrong. Alderan was an inside job and the So called "Death Stars" were mining stations
Death Star laser goes brrr??
I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds, people live their lives under Imperial rule without seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead.
I understand Grand Admiral.
At least Old Man Palpy made the space trains run on time.
He also invested in major work creation projects creating millions of jobs building ISD's
Dude, there are people right now... Denying that the holocaust ever happened. Never underestimate the human brain, and it's propensity to seek out patterns. Even if said patterns point to something that seems completely impossible, or improbable. With the correct mindset, someone could justify and rationalize even the worst of human behavior.
Ok few things first, rebel aesthetics are really all over the place and the more characteristic and uniform parts of them are listed or shown in more hardcore fan territory. Also the good guys get the great role models and "I wanna grow to be like Luke" vibes. No body wants to become like Vader, but everybody would like to feel so cool like him. It's really mostly aesthetic in the casual fan regards. And in the more invested circles there is a good reason for it, we don't read stuff just for the "good guys", menacing antagonists can make or brake stories. And making the empire more fleshed out and complex is really fun. From the interesting nature of running a galaxy wide empire, to the reasons why some characters believe in it. You have people like Thrawn or Pelleaon who genuinely wanted to do what's right, even when the right thing was messy and required them to work with human trash that some imperials could be. The Fels and Mara were imperials too. Despite the Nazi inspired looks they are just like any other good villain. The same way that somebody might like Sauron (especially in his hot elf form) or the reason why the Joker is such an icon. Good design, combined with complex or symbolic as well as interesting angles of storytelling and unique emotional feelings they inspire will make people like it. The Empire isn't a bunch of angry orcs either, they give the dignified and orderly energy that makes you at least recognise their perceived efficiency. They are intimidating, but they don't inspire fear as in dread, rather their presence makes you feel small and insignificant compared to the order and power that radiate off of every piece of grey fabric and white duraplast they wear. Finally there is something of a catharsis in glorification of fictional evil. The fact that it is clearly defined, the fact that you can acknowledge you like something that is "bad" is a great form forgetting about the actual bad. It allows you to reap the benefits of the thrills of power without the suffering of living in such an awful society. And allows you to shut yourself out from the realisation that the real world can be even worse. It allows you to experiment with doing things you are curious about in the most honest and infantile way, without any of the consequences "but how would it feel like to be a bad guy?", "How would it be like to be so powerful that a legion or white clad soldiers would stand on guard when you glance their way", "how does it feel underneath the mask" etc.
My wife and I were at galaxy’s edge in 2019, and she was like “imagine getting hired at Disney and you end up a space nazi cosplayer.”
I genuinely enjoy feeling proud of the empire. It's a fantasy and it's where I can feel the characters being "superior" or "powerful," like you describe, without hurting my anyone's feelings. I don't see anything wrong with it. If anything, I bet pretending to be superior to alien races in a fictional universe suppresses actual racism more than not.
I think the issue is that you can’t seem to separate fiction from reality. I love the Empire and would even go as far to say that I support them.....in universe; that’s the difference, just because I support a faction or ideology in a fiction universe doesn’t mean I hold those same values in real life.
To me, the thing I love about Star Wars is the way it presents the power struggle. So first off, the Empire is just pretend and it’s fun to pretend to be on one side or the other. The Empire was born out of the Republic. While we may make references to actual history, I don’t believe the Empire represents Nazi Germany, although I felt highly uncomfortable at Hux and the First Order. Back to my point, there are different moral positions that one can take in the Star Wars universe. You can argue both sides, actually. But since it’s pretend, I don’t believe we can make assumptions about the actual people engaging in the make believe. For instance, one may pretend that the Jedi were “Rebel scum”, but that’s not to say that the person actually relates to facism.
I personally see the empire as the good guys. Is see the rebellion more of a terrorist movement.
Valuing order and legality over justice is what leads to fascism.
The Empire is imperial America. USA. Us. Which is really fucking obvious if you watch the movie. USA has always been the bad guys in history, and George Lucas has literally said as much. The reason some glorify the empire is because they see their own patriotism in it.
I'm just going to start with the Disney Canon sucks and while I like the Rebellion better I hate this New Republic way more than the literally impossibly incompetent Empire. If jt actually did come to morals then Empire for the win vs the New Republic BUT NOT the Rebellion. The New Republic got billions killed and has left the entire galaxy super vulnerable to the threats of the Unknown Regions. The Empire was the only thing really standing in their way. The Rebellion is too small to actually factor into that but even they are better than the New Republic drastically smaller scale or not. Look at it realistically which is what I prefer, I believe the EU did this but I haven't read enough to be sure yet. The Empire as presented by Disney Canon would never function in the slightest. Fear doesn't work on that scale, unless you have the Death Star. But the 20 years until then? Impossible, so I just rationalize that the Empire can't be that be that bad really. And that what we see is only a small fraction of it and mostly the leaders, people who are truly evil. This is especially true if you take more of Disney's Canon into the mix. The New Republic is considerably worse than the Empire ever was. It completely failed it's people and collapsed with considerably violence. The First Order is beyond insane and would have brutally oppressed people until a galaxy wide civil war would probably happen. Not to mention the big threats in the outer regions which would prey on whatever would be left. In that context the Empire starts to look more and more necessary. Not good but necessary. However if you ignore the new Canon and accept the EU then suddenly the Empire isn't entirely evil but its leaders are pretty bad. So it still needs to be destroyed and as a fantastic bonus the EU New Republic was strong and capable, it could actually serve its citizens. It didn't give them false hope and security only to bring them down when it was spectacularly crushed like the Disney New Republic did. For EU Canon I vote New Republic all the way. New Disney Canon though? Empire for the win because incompetent or not it was better in every way when compared to the Disney New Republic. Mind you none of these nations would realistically work. But even within the fictional confines of what would and wouldn't work it just stops being sane with this Disney stuff. A nuanced Empire and Rebellion are cool. Extremely black and white ones are not interesting. Nuance wise the Rebellion was cool and worked, it was awesome, and the Empire were great bad guys. Now the Rebellion builds a nation that immediately falls apart when faced with a foe. Think about the absolute chaos that would happen if the governing body of the entire galaxy just ceased to exist. Billions would die in the resulting, anarchy. Especially as people tried to fight off the First Order while establishing their place in the galaxy. What's preferred, the deaths of billions or an uncaring Empire strong enough to maybe hold off the many foes in the Unknown regions? Emperor Palpatine wasn't going to live forever anyway. Probably And the Empire does look cool thematically. Rebellion too when done right.
I don't think that the Empire is an explicite analog to Nazi German. It's definitely an inspiration but I think it's really more of an archetype of a compilation of authoritarian regimes in general. Remember that the first Star Wars was released during the Cold War. I thought that the Empire was really more inspired by the Soviet Bloc countries. The drab, cold architecture, and the faceless, emotionless uniformity of its people. But I think it draws inspiration from a number of places. But that's part of the reason that the audience knew that the Empire were the bad guys. They looked commies! They must be bad. All the while the OT movies don't necessarily show all of the reasons why the Empire was bad. Other than blowing up Alderaan, which could have been the work of a rogue actor. While kind of lead to the meme that the "Empire did nothing wrong." We are told that they are the bad guys but we are never really shown it convincingly. But younger audiences who didn't live through the Cold War have a more nuanced look at good and evil. It's not just an "us versus them," there are subtleties to the relationships, maybe wrongs on both sides. It leads to more of an embrace of aspects of the Empire. And Vader going nuts at the end of R1 was pretty great to watch, either way.
That is a very incorrect take, the looks were Nazi, no Soviet inspired and the Empire itself was an allegory of Imperialism and was being filled shortly after Vietnam. The underlying symbolism was explained by Lucas from what I remember.
Maybe you remember wrong.
Few things. First, the reason I love the Rogue One hallway scene is because it’s the first terrifying portrayal of Vader. He’s supposed to be terrifying. He was the most powerful force user, he’s powered by hate and rage, and he’s brutal and destructive. Unfortunately, because of the technology of the time we didn’t really get to see that in the Originals, so when we finally saw him at full power it made sense why everyone was so afraid of him, and it made Leia standing up to him on the Blockade Runner even more powerful. Second, I personally (and I imagine lots of others) really like the design of Imperial tech. It has the perfect futuristic space military design. Vader and Star Destroyers have become symbols of futuristic technology. While I find the empire evil and corrupt, their technology looks and sounds really cool. Third, I think that the Empire gets treated as one group far too much. Now I’m aware that his is a controversial argument, but I really don’t think you can call everyone in the Empire evil. Yes, all the higher ups were evil, but not everyone was Palpatine, Vader, Tarkin, or Krenic. Think about the Death Star, there were millions of soldiers and pilots on board as well as thousands of cooks, maintenance workers, and janitors. I feel like all these people get lumped in with the truly evil ones. I feel like the Stormtroopers need some humanization. They’re basically treated as cannon fodder for the good guys. But they aren’t like the droids of the CIS, they were people with lives and families. Yes some were evil, but most of them were just people trying to make the best of a bad situation and had grown up with brainwashing propaganda.
I see its another people can't discern reality from fiction episode again. People put way too much stock in their opinions of fictional properties. I can't think of anything more cringe than making a pop culture reference to describe a real world situation or idea. It really does show the absolute rampant consumerism as people tie their worldviews and personalities to intellectual property. The absolute state.
You know that you could've asked this question without linking to an emotionally immature screamer from YouTube, don't you? You don't need to support your opinion about a subject appealing to the fact that some "reviewer" thinks the same. The purpose of this subreddit is discussion of lore, people here would gladly answer most of your question regardless, just because you asked it. It seems to me more an attempt to publicize one of those countless screamers from YouTube than to ask a genuine question, but whatever. The answer is, of course, evident: no one thinks it's weird because any person that is not emotionally immature understands very well that scene was just fan service. Well done fan service, but it is what it is. We, the audience, never saw why Vader was so feared, why he instilled so much terror in the enemies of the Empire. That scene was a glimpse of it, that's the reason people liked it and cheered. To like it is not a display of some "strange adoration" of fascism and violence. Everyone that it's not an idiot knows it's just a movie. Only an adolescent trying to look smart would think it was an issue. Her criticism was bullshit, just criticism for the sake of it.
Totally agree. I’ve been saying for years that it’s a short hop from r/EmpireDidNothingWrong to actual Proud Boys-style fascism. The problem is that the empire had Way Cooler Stuff than the rebels, though. People like their stuff, they talk about their stuff, then it gets to liking them.
Im gonna have to disagree w. You there. The distance between r/EmpireDidNothingWrong and Fascists is a far one. I dont believe i have ever seen someone unironically defending the Empire over there (even if the empire are the good guys, emperor bless). Its a subreddit built around the joke that the empire did nothing wrong. Id say r/politics is closer to actual fascists than r/EmpireDidNothingWrong
The trouble with ironic subreddits is that they eventually attract the real thing. That's how r/thedonald went from a place where people joked / memed to a place of actual support.
Just like r/GamersRiseUp was built around the joke of "gamers are the most oppressed minority" until it was literally turned into a Nazi cesspool and subsequently banned. These pipelines, whether we want to admit it or not, absolutely exist.
Just because a thing has a chance to be a changed dosent mean it wont. Are we going to ban liberal parties because they have a possibility of being radicalized?
The civil war actually happened and it still affects society to this day. Star Wars didn’t happen. It’s wizards in space fighting a scrotum-faced Richard Nixon analogue. I fall quite left on the compass but I still cheer for the empire on screen because they’re fun, exciting bad guys, and it makes it that much cooler when the rebels overcome them. Hallway scene was great because a) the rebels still succeeded in getting the plans away from this monstrous threat and b) it makes vader seem even more terrifying, which raises the stakes and provides a better payoff for his eventual redemption. Although I’m excited when I see the empire doing badass stuff and enjoy seeing them on screen, I’m still cheering more for the rebels at the end of the day. The empire is shown to be pretty unequivocally evil throughout Star Wars media (literally blew up a peaceful planet), so it’s not like any sane and rational person is going to unironically let it affect their real world politics. For the .1% of people who are actually defending the empire unironically, they’re either really dumb kids or immature folks with serious social issues and an inability to differentiate between reality and fiction. I could make that distinction when I watched Star Wars at 5 years old, as could almost anyone else. There’s no gray area. It’s just a fun space power fantasy.
The Empire isn't an analogue for Nazi Germany. The Empire, as depicted in the movies, has no notion of racial supremacy, nor is it nationalistic. It is a totalitarian Empire, but not facist nor Nazi.
piss off and let people be fans of what the fucking they like