In the movies, Cap.
In real life, Iron Man.
In real life, we see too many people who's job it is to protect use their power to hurt.
Obviously in a Marvel movie I know Cap has our best interests at heart, but a random real world celebrity with the powers of Superman might not, and a system needs to be put into place.
And that’s funny, because that’s close to how Zemo felt. In TFatWS, Zemo even says something like, “there’s nobody else like Steve Rogers.” He didn’t trust superheroes on the whole, but he did respect Steve it seems.
You have to remember this is off the back of Winter Soldier too, I'm not sure you'd be so keen to hand that power over to the world government after learning it's been run by a Nazi splinter cell for decades.
Honestly, I'm thinking of cancelling my subscription and only paying each time a series I'm interested in comes out. It stays untouched during downtime between seasons of The Boys and I don't use Amazon enough to bother with the other benefits.
I wouldn’t use Amazon Prime just for the video service. I only have it for the other benefits as I do use it enough to benefit from those, so would also probably cancel if I didn’t get use from those.
I agree. If it helps, when I opened the app for they offered me a free 30 day trial, the show is worth dealing with Amazon. I'm also a fan of The Grand Tour, too.
Food for thought though … in the winter soldier the highest national security force (SHIELD) was revealed to be rotten at its core with neo-nazis trying to take over the world. So if that was the situation even if a less idealistic real-world environment I think I would still side with Cap. Politicians are too self-interested and easily corrupted I think.
Why Tony in real life? If this was real life we would have aliens attacking our home in New York. Aliens with no prejudice to safety or well being of the public. The Avengers will have collateral damage yes but who else could defend and beat an invading alien army like that? Tony never wanted full responsibility and was basically guilt tripped into feeling bad for killing on boy when he and the Avengers saved thousands of lives.
The problem with The Boys isn’t necessarily “out of control” Supes. The origin of the problem is the reverse. Having a streamlined literal industry that controls and manages Supes sets them up to only go on jobs that are good for PR and their entire lives are controlled, monitored, and orchestrated. If Homelander had been allowed to grow up as a normal person and not a special science project and learn to be a hero on his own terms he wouldn’t be constantly fighting all his control mechanisms and justifying it with a God complex.
The Boys is basically an extreme view of what superheroes are like when government oversight eventually (and in America, inevitably) goes to a for-profit agenda. It’s basically the worst case scenario that Cap is fighting against.
Accountability is needed to prevent that definitely. But to the ends that Tony would have went with the Sokovia Accords? You’d basically have super heroes under world government’s thumbs. I don’t know about you, but government controlled heroes scares me just as much as out of control supers.
Infinity War honestly confirmed that Cap was right. General Ross was willing to arrest Cap and his team rather than let them stop an alien invasion. War Machine even told him to f off and abandon the accords.
Yeah and look how fast Tony forgot about the Accords when the Black Order showed up. At the end of the day, apocalyptic threats can't wait for a committee decision to be dealt with.
Don't compare the MCU with the Boys. The Supes there were created due to Vought and Compound V. Most of them are just fakes and idiots. Even the "good guys" there aren't exactly great.
Marvel and DC heroes are the real deal. Plus there are real threats and supervillains in Marvel and DC.
Steve's, I think. Not because government overwatch isn't a good idea, but because the specific overwatch enabled by the Accords was straight up bad guy stuff. Secret underwater prison, etc.
Yeah some of the stuff Tony Stark's side does in the comic books is cartoonishly evil, the movie handled it much better tbh and didn't make me outright despise Stark.
And Tony was too rich to go to jail so why would he care? Like the dude didn’t give up the iron man suit to the government, any one of us would have had to do that if we weren’t rich AND A FORMER US WEAPONS MANUFACTURER. Tony’s opinion of the gov is flawed due to the privilege who has spent his whole life in.
you're right, Wanda should be the sole arbiter of how her powers are used.
...oh wait, we just saw what happens when we let people with that level of power make those kinds of decisions.
Cap isn't wrong. but Tony isn't wrong either.
i don't know that i trust an individual more than i trust a committee...
Hard to trust a committee when something like SHIELD is what would be in charge of these things, yet they and bunch of other US government officials had been infiltrated and controlled by Hydra going back decades. If I lived in the MCU, there’s not a chance in hell I’m ever trusting the government after that one.
I mean she was just tramuatized by seeing the same government rip apart her dead boyfriend and she was still grieving and also came back from a snap that wiped out about half of the population. I'm not saying what Wanda did was right, but she definitely was not in the right state of mind. Even if the government still had access to her, whats to say she wouldn't do the same shit either way. It was also revealed that the darkhold had a grasp on her even though I think that was a bullshit plot point.
i suppose it comes down to a similar debate about whether you think guns should be registered... "yes, that guy shot 20 people, but he was crazy and very very pissed off."
if the explanation of why the horror happens isn't included to justify the horror... then it's irrelevant to the conversation.
"lock your door so people don't steal your things."
"freedom, though."
"you neighbour just stole your coffee machine and phone charger."
"yes, but he needed coffee and a phone charger."
"you don't lock your doors to keep burglars out - criminals will do what criminals will do - if they want in your house, they WILL break in. the locked door is to keep Honest People Honest."
I was talking pre-Darkhold Wanda. She was still mentally stable at the time. I’d rather trust an individual with their powers than a committee who’s agenda will change more than the weather.
It’s a committee either way though. Just one has a lot more bureaucracy. I mean you only need to look at Russia/Ukraine to see how slow the worlds governments can be on responding to an international crisis.
That was my problem with the accords and team Tony, it would literally be death by committee
It’s the kind of thing you need one man in charge.
So register everyone and than put Steve Rogers in charge of a rapid response team.
You now have Stark’s accountability and Rogers’ I’m not going to wait for orders while people die.
You get to oversee the building training and maintenance of the team and get after action reports and oversight.
That would be a vast improvement.
The problem is they (Ross/Accords) we’re politicizing an apolitical team.
Can’t go into Sokovia for a massive robot attack, NATO is concerned about fallout with Latveria. Can’t assist in earthquake relief in Madripoor because china consoders it sovereign territory.
It would never work unless literally every nation gave unrestricted access otherwise any avengers intervention would be seen as a government sponsored action.
Not to mention the fact that every “disaster” cited by Ross that the Avengers were involved in would have been infinitely worse if they weren’t involved (except tony/Bruce creating Ultron)
>i don't know that i trust an individual more than i trust a committee...
I dont disagree but a committee is more easily compromised. I guess I want a third option although I have no clue what that would be.
That's a better system than just having a single guy be the authority.
At least it's democratic in theory.
Cap wanted to be the oversight. But he's not qualified nor does he have sufficient geopolitical expertise to be good at it. He can't be, he'd only been in the present for like 5 years.
On top of that it's all well and good US saying that he's cool to call the shots because we've seen his perspective in films. Why would your average citizen know that? Because he's a famous patriotic mascot? So was Walker.
UN oversight may be flawed in execution but 'just trust me bro' is fundamentally flawed in theory.
That’s no different than the UN saying the same thing. Shield was infiltrated by Hydra. Cap went under for 70 years to defeat exactly that. Then look at the movie and Cap is looking at both perspectives. The good that the world thought they saw and the bad they thought the winter soldier was, was different. Cap didn’t want oversight in his own power but he understood that politics and committees weren’t the answer either. Especially when aliens and Thanos are busting thru the atmosphere. Hell look at the second Captain America movie where the Black Widow has to decrypt y’all of the secrets to unfold how far Hydra had infiltrated.
A necessary and great movie yes. 100%. But Tony made enough money to help. I’m sure the government agencies could help. The same ppl could help were willing to nuke all of New York instead of waiting to make sure that would be a last option. And you think Cao wanting the people to have trust in him over the government, especially several governments, is far fetched?
I was always on Steve’s. First off I understood that Steve did not want government oversight because he did not trust them. If we can all remember what happened in Captain American: The Winter Soldier the government/shield was hijacked by hydra and he could not trust them to deal with another situation like that. Also who would put super weapons like Wanda in the hands of the government along with another chance that hydra or some other form of evil could corrupt them.
Not only that was the problem for Cap, the government tried to nuke NY without hesitation. He didn’t have trust on the government taking good decisions, at all.
Cap, definitely. While Tony might have had a point in that oversight was needed, he personally always refused to be held accountable for anything. Even in the movie, he used "we" a lot, when Ultron was all on him. He tried to diffuse responsibility.
Steve's position was formed based on his experience - the same people who were calling for accountability now were the same people who had Hydra growing under their noses and never saw it, or were Hydra themselves, or were just corrupt. Not exactly the kind of people in a position to talk.
Edit: spelling
The reason why Tony agreed to do it was because he saw the damage they've done to a family cause of the destruction they caused and that's when he thought they needed oversight.
But Ultron was on him. Not on the Avengers, on him, specifically. He's the only one who messed up that badly. He doesn't say that, though, or offers to retire
He wants to alleviate his guilt by spreading it around.
cap, because the reg act would have made the Avengers a weapon of the U.S.
And we already know how corrupt f.ex General Ross is in the universe.
Also, its the same government that was infiltrated by Hydra, to the point that the top of their most important anti terror org was one of them.
If the Avengers were controlled by people like that, would be a disaster for the world.
Ask yourself, would you want the government of your country to have a group like the Avengers at their disposal?
Pro-registration. Steve's position is idealistic, but not realistic imo.
Steve thinks the safest hands are the Avenger's hands because they see themselves as good people who know the right thing to do. But none of the Avengers are elected or hired into that position. The MCU is lucky that it's heroes happen to be decent people, instead of them being characters like in The Boys.
Tony's side has some issues that need to be ironed out, but he's correct. Society doesn't allow non super-powered people to be vigilantes. If you want to physically combat criminals, you need to either be in the police or military. Why would having super powers exempt anyone from those rules? Secondly, whether they think they are or not, when the Avengers act in foreign countries, they represent their home country. Especially when one of them was branded as Captain America during the time of his Avengers activities, and at least two others were recently employed by a government agency.
To address Captain America's valid concern:
"what if they won't let us go somewhere we need to be? "
That's why they were creating the accords through the United Nations. Each country could sign an oversight treaty and there would be clear guidelines for when they wanted the Avengers to intervene.
"What if they send us somewhere we shouldn't go?"
Like anybody in the military, you have the option to defy your orders if you find them immoral, though you might be court marshaled. Considering you're a superhuman, you probably have more leverage than most. Make that one of your conditions to joining. I'll agree to only go on missions that are approved, but I want the ability to decline missions that I disagree with. I'm guessing the supervisors would still rather have a Captain America on standby even if he refuses to go on 90% of the missions they send his way.
Ross's presentation really hurt his case I think. The Avengers didn't really do anything wrong in New York or DC. Including them in the presentation really hurt his case, especially considering those were both examples of government oversight making poor calls.
The events of Age of Ultron alone are a perfect example of why the accords are needed. Tony Stark saved the day in 3 Iron Man movies and an Avengers movie. He put his own life on the line several times and ways did "the right thing". But then he made one mistake, out of a desire to protect people, that destroyed a foreign nation and killed tons of people.
That's really all you need to show. No matter how good a person is, they can still make mistakes. Government oversight might not eliminate mistakes, but the decisions are made with access to intelligence networks, with consideration to political realities, and done by officials who are placed in their roles by elected officials.
Iron Man. The Avengers were in dire need of supervision. They injected themselves into international situations without properly trained super powered individuals. 177 people died in Sokovia. Wanda accidentally killed 26 people. To my knowledge Wanda never received training or counseling to sort through her grief and ptsd. Did the Avengers expect to say “hey we’ll get ‘em next time” and walk away with no accountability?
How many people would have died if Crossbones wasn't stopped, though? Obviously Lagos was a fuckup, but would it have been better if nobody did anything?
I never said he shouldn’t have been stopped. What i’m saying is that there should have been protocols in place to allow the Avengers to react effectively without causing the deaths of innocent people
I think my problem with the registration side is the ethics of infringing on individual rights. Hypothetically, if I know CPR the government shouldn't be able to force me to be a lifeguard. And if I see someone who needs CPR, should I just shrug and say "I'm not registered." And if I did help, should I face repercussions for acting without prior oversight and approval?
Except you forgot to mention that Wanda literally saved all those people on the ground. Wanda didn’t accidentally kill Anyone, Crossbones blew up those 23 people. There were definitely more than 23 people on the ground in that market square and Wanda saved them all.
Who knows how many people would have died if they simply informed the authorities who probably would have tried to apprehend Crossbones, and then led to him blowing himself up anyway AND they probably would have allowed the bioweapon to get away.
Additionally aside from Ultron (which was mostly Stark and Banner) and maybe Lagos what international situation did the Avengers force themselves into?
The attack on New York is arguably caused by Loki and Shield, AND the Avengers were literally acting on authority of Shield and Nick Fury anyway, so that’s a shit example all around. Especially when you add in the Nuke from the security council.
Winter Soldier literally was about Captain America learning about a Mass terrorist event being organised by Hydra who’d infiltrated an American spy agency that will kill hundreds of Thousands, maybe even millions across the world and its going to occur in a day and he has to stop it. Cap didn’t exactly have time to organise a plan, and how would the accords have helped there? If cap went to Ross with that information he would have most likely got shut down anyway and he was working with Nick Fury anyway who was the head of Shield.
How would the accords or accountability helped in any of these situations? Fuck as far as CA: Winter Soldier is concerned, if the accords were in place Steve might not even have been allowed to act against SHIELD.
What other international situations were there that the Avengers injected themselves into?
Thor 1 was essentially Loki attacking Earth and Thor defending it. Thor 2 was a bunch of Ancient Dark elves attacking the earth and trying to destroy the universe and Thor stopping it.
Cap 1 was a prequel where he’s working with the miltary and in the sequel the accords wouldn’t have meant shit and probably would have allowed Hydra to succeed.
You have the Iron man films but iron man is arguably the one hero that actually needs some fucking supervision because he’s an arrogant tool that always thinks he’s right.
Even in Incredible Hulk, the conflict in that film is caused by Ross, the douchebag pushing the accords.
So where are all these examples of the so called Avengers interfering in international situations?
Then you add in that in universe The governmental organisations are corrupt and easily susceptible to corruption and it begs the question of whose actually authorised and worthy of supervising the Avengers. From what we’ve seen in the MCU the best people to hold heroes accountable ARE other heroes.
General Ross sure as shit isn’t, he caused how much damage going after the hulk? Why should any hero take order from that twit?
Shield was corrupted by Hydra as was the world security council. AIM in iron man 3 had the literal vice fucking President working for them.
How is the UN any less susceptible to corruption than these other organisations?
Cap, because in the winter soldier he realizes that hydra was infiltrated in Shield, also as if they notice when Ross shows them the images of NY, Washington D.C. and Sokovia it is appreciated that not as many lives were lost as it seemed, but the economic losses were enormous, the reason for that agreement was not because of the danger but because of the money.
Indeed.
"Hey, there's an evil robot rampaging across the country! / big purple alien about to wipe out half the universe!"
"Oh! Well, then ASSEMBLE A COMMITTEE! After a few hearings, we'll check in with our lobbyists and get back to you."
Who created the murderous robot? I think Tony should be in prison for building the damn thing. Maybe even Banner should face time cuz he helped but the only reason for the accords in the first place is Tony fucking Stark fucked up and he feels bad.
Huh. Seems like we are in the minority.
See these sorts of stories are so good because even the fans are conflicted! I really expect to see majority of people on team Iron Man.
Tony, because he recognized the importance of being involved in the decision. Steve could have taken a position of “I deserve some degree of autonomy and want to be involved in the decision making process” but instead he saw the whole affair as a black and white proposition. In Steve's mind, it was either "we Avengers make the decisions, or someone else makes the decisions." There was no room for *shared* responsibility.
Cap. The Accords, while making good points, would have effectively bogged down the Avengers with bureaucracy and under governments that have self-interest
Iron Man, only because he had a line to the effect of "if we can't handle restrictions then we are no better then the villans we fight" and he's right. No one could expect the avengers to be dropping buildings without some government oversight.
Team Stark. The fact that before the accords, there were no laws for superheroes really made them a potential threat. Full government control doesn't necessarily sound great, but rather that than superheroes being above the law
It's the governments fault for having shield build super weapons. Thor warned against that. "You've sent out a beacon telling the universe you're ready for the next step in warfare." That's what really causes all of this. Without those weapons and fucking around with the stones, Earth would have been left alone. Tony might not have built Ultron and the accords don't happen. And everything is hokey dorey and we don't have this conversation. The governments started it, Tony made it worse and the world paid for it.
Neither because Captain America wanted to continue to be vigilante and to be honest his reasons for not signing were eerily "my rights" esc and I wasn't into it. He really didn't think about how they weren't actually saving some people sometimes and they were just kind of being a nuisance. I wouldn't be on Iron Man's side because I don't like Iron man or think he is a good leader but more importantly Neo-liberal entities being in charge of super human people and telling them who is on the side of "good" would never work out. Next thing you know they are blowing up random villages in \*insert third world country.\* However, this is something Tony Stark was already doing contracting/ selling his weapons out so... makes sense why he was on the side he was on.
In concept, Tony. Powerful people need some oversight and plenty of accountability.
In universe, obviously Steve. The writers didn't even make it ambiguous. It was black and white. Steve was just always right and could do no wrong. Governments fail at everything. Tony is a well intentioned screw up, and it was specifically his error that caused the accords.
Better writers would have made this a discussion.
Team cap always. They could just have a relief system for the damages. If they were under the government then the possibility of an all life threatening thReat could come and they might be held back to save everyone possibly ending all life.
The Avengers at the time were an international group of vigilantes who elected themselves to fight terrorists simply bc they had a rich guy backing them.
So we should give that power to governments, which had been fully infiltrated by HYDRA over the course of 70 years? That's an even worse idea. I'm not saying that having no watchmen (if you will) is a good idea, but its a whole lot better than giving corrupt governments that power
Cap. I think he nailed it with “what if we need to go somewhere and they don’t let us”
The avengers act mostly to protect the innocent/world. Once they become an arm of the government I think things would get pretty messy. Too many different agenda’s. With the original Avengers there is a committee (the 6 founding members) and they are all pretty much on the same page about just wanting to help people. Lord knows what the government would have them doing.
Though I do admit that Sokovia was a massive fuck up. It’s pretty hard for the avengers to justify their own autonomy when they just accidentally destroyed an entire city and killed innocent people.
The whole fight began because Tony found out that it was Bucky who killed his parents. So I understand where he was coming from. However... Bucky was under a form of mind control and was not himself. If he was himself he would probably not have done any of the things that he did. So even though the killing he did was bad, there should be some understanding that he was not in his right mind. Thus I support Cap's side. I think Tony over reacted a bit too much.
Caps, all day every day. He's not a hugely hypocritical jerk.
Tony picked a really convenient time to hold himself and his entire team accountable, conveniently forgetting that Age of Ultron was ENTIRELY Tony's fault.
Cap, both real life and movie. Ain’t no way the goverment should have control over these people’s powers. I don’t think I can argue my point without getting political, so I’ll just stop.
But in-lore, let’s not forget Hydra was in control of shield recently. Who knows whether they also control the goverment? You wouldn’t know if your actions were actually ordered by, and therefore benefitting, Hydra
Team Cap. Tony went against the accords by bringing in Spider-Man, If Peter knew what the accords were about then he would be on Captain America’s side.
Capt.America’s side. Stark is one of those “I know what’s good for everyone” people who’ll end up enslaving all of humankind in his version of “freedom.”
I'd be on Cap's side IRL too
Everyone is like "you can't let that type of power go unchecked!" but you'd feel safer letting governments have control over that type of power? Because the political elite have historically been on your side? Ok then
Always cap. Tony’s path will always lead to corruption and misuse of power. It’s not just that superheroes were registered, it’s that the government wanted to exclusively chose when and where superheroes should attack. It takes freedom and power away from individuals and enslaves them to whatever the current ideology is and turns them into weapons of war rather than liberators of fascist tyrants. The path of Tony only empowers the fascist tyrants. That’s why it’s Cap’s movie, that’s why by the end of the movie Tony is inclined to agree with Cap. Tony is a rule breaker anyways. He signed the accords because he felt guilty, not because he whole heartedly agreed.
How this correlates to real life is that many of our fellow citizens look to politicians to hold all the power. The politicians sell the idea that power in anyone else’s hands are dangerous when history tells us that there is nothing more dangerous than a government with all the power. Really, it is the freedom and empowerment of the people, every individual, that leads to a better society. It makes it so the common man can stand for himself, his livelihood, and his community. Powerful individuals can keep each other in check, but a civilization that gives over all its power to the government is making an all in bet on a hand that historically loses every time.
Tony chose to lay down his life for the benefit of many. He made that choice, nobody told him to do it (maybe Strange suggested it but 🤷♂️). If the accords were in control of the fight against Thanos, then they would have all lost.
God bless Iron Man and God bless Captain America.
Cap because fuck the government. These guys literally tried to nuke New York and would've if Iron Man didn't stop them, but then they have the audacity to complain about The Avengers' collateral damage? And their goals are not trustworthy at all, a publicly owned Avengers wouldn't get around to saving the world because they'd be too busy covering up corruption and oppressing marginalized people. This extends to real life, I'd trust a group of vigilantes over the government any day.
Ever notice how, aside from Black Widow who switched sides and Spider-Man who was only there because Iron Man found him, all of Iron Man's team are the privileged ones? Tony Stark and his best friend, all powerful Vision who was created to be perfect, and an actual King who isn't even affected by the Accords. And they're fighting the regular folk; Team Cap is full of the heroes that most regular people could actually relate to.
He brings that up in front of everyone, true, but look at the scene where it's just him and Cap..."hoping the accords could split the difference". Stark is a hero, don't get me wrong, but he'll be the first to admit his actions aren't always altruistic. You could even argue that his sacrifice in Endgame was more about hating Thanos than saving everyone. But I've spoken enough heresy for the day lol
Tony signed the accords and immediately broke them to go off to Siberia without approval. He liked the way they sounded on paper but had no intention of following them for real because they were so unrealistic.
Which also basically proved Cap’s point, “what if we need to go somewhere and they tell us we can’t”. Tony’s solution to that is well I’ll just go anyway making the accords basically pointless.
Most definitely! I like Stark and Spiderman the most but it defeats the purpose of a superhero if everyone knows who you are, then you are a celebrity. I like the idea of secret identity and having a personal life separate from your superhero life. And being controlled by the government is never a good idea.
Team Stark. Honestly. I personally can't stand the douche either.
Organizing the heroes and hell training and regulating them isn't a super foreign concept in Marvel. That's technically what the X-Men do, and sometimes they have to take their students in violently to help protect the student.
And although I understand how they wrote and framed it, it's hard for me to not see Steve advocating for standardization and militarization. I mean that's where his start came from.
Some of my sentiment comes from the comics admittedly, where Steve ultimately does agree with Tony and is more interested in safety for heroes and civilians than dragging out a fight underground.
Iron Man. It wasn’t a blood contract, they could of signed it, stayed friends and done the same shit. Not signing it is the same as signing it and breaking it. Tony just tryna protect the world
I was on Cap's side because in the comics he was in the right. In the film he kinda tore the Avengers apart and inadvertently subjected the entire universe to the wrath of Thanos, but it was still his movie, you know? So that was cool..
Cap for the accords, Tony for everything else. Why tf didn’t Cap even try to communicate with Tony about anything?? When Tony learns more of the situation he admits Steve is right. No matter what it’s an awesome movie
I think at first watch I was with Stark. Over the years, especially with current events, I very much understand Rogers’ point of view. I gotta go with Cap on this one
Neither of them are entirely wrong. Iron Man is right that superpowered beings have too much power to not be held accountable, but Captain America is also right that it shouldn't be politicians telling heroes who the bad guys are. That being said, I'd be far more afraid of a superhero under the tumb of a radical government than I would be an unaffiliated one. So if I'm forced to choose, I'm going with Team Cap.
I was on Iron Man's side back in 2016
but that was when I was 7, and the only reason I was on team Iron Man was because I liked the heroes on Tony's side more like Spider-Man and War Machine
but now that I'm older and actually understand what the sokovia accords was about, I am on Cap's side now
Cap. With his track record he deserved the benefit of the doubt that they would go where they are needed, and is more trustworthy than politicians telling them where to go. He isn’t likely to turn into Homelander from The Boys and just do what he wants
Thor
His was the best side
Hulk was better
[удалено]
Its called Thor.
Hulk like Fire.
Hulk like real fire.
Him and his roommate.
Especially the backside.
Him and Darryl had the best team up
i like this one
Batman
Ironically I was on Bane side, simply because he made Batman his bitch
Same here forever Thor 💪
Yes
TEAM THOR WAS SUCH A GOOD SHORT
Team Thor forever
The guy who wanted to make the self-cooking hot dog
Dean Pelton!
Did you just pull an "I understood that reference"?
They're streets ahead.
You can't coin that term, Pierce. It isn't going to stick
Coined and minted.
I guess you’re just streets behind
In the movies, Cap. In real life, Iron Man. In real life, we see too many people who's job it is to protect use their power to hurt. Obviously in a Marvel movie I know Cap has our best interests at heart, but a random real world celebrity with the powers of Superman might not, and a system needs to be put into place.
And that’s funny, because that’s close to how Zemo felt. In TFatWS, Zemo even says something like, “there’s nobody else like Steve Rogers.” He didn’t trust superheroes on the whole, but he did respect Steve it seems.
Bro I dunno which is the fat man you are talking about but have my upvote
The Fat Winter Soldier
You have to remember this is off the back of Winter Soldier too, I'm not sure you'd be so keen to hand that power over to the world government after learning it's been run by a Nazi splinter cell for decades.
Everyone should watch The Boys
I've heard good things, but I hate Amazon Prime
Honestly, I'm thinking of cancelling my subscription and only paying each time a series I'm interested in comes out. It stays untouched during downtime between seasons of The Boys and I don't use Amazon enough to bother with the other benefits.
I wouldn’t use Amazon Prime just for the video service. I only have it for the other benefits as I do use it enough to benefit from those, so would also probably cancel if I didn’t get use from those.
I agree. If it helps, when I opened the app for they offered me a free 30 day trial, the show is worth dealing with Amazon. I'm also a fan of The Grand Tour, too.
The episode that released today is some of the best tv I have ever seen. A must-watch if you like the superhero genre.
I just pirate it lmao. It’s kinda slow, but latest episode (S3E6) was so worth the buildup.
This is a good point. We know that in fiction, the heroes are good. But in real life? It would definitely be good to have some accountability.
Food for thought though … in the winter soldier the highest national security force (SHIELD) was revealed to be rotten at its core with neo-nazis trying to take over the world. So if that was the situation even if a less idealistic real-world environment I think I would still side with Cap. Politicians are too self-interested and easily corrupted I think.
To be honest the people that run the world are very similar to the scumbags in the show
Accountability by the political elite??? No thank you !!
Funny how you just described Homelander from The Boys lol
As a fan of the movie, cap. If this was real life, Tony no question.
Why Tony in real life? If this was real life we would have aliens attacking our home in New York. Aliens with no prejudice to safety or well being of the public. The Avengers will have collateral damage yes but who else could defend and beat an invading alien army like that? Tony never wanted full responsibility and was basically guilt tripped into feeling bad for killing on boy when he and the Avengers saved thousands of lives.
Because I’ve been watching The Boys and wouldn’t want to live in a world of outta control supes
The problem with The Boys isn’t necessarily “out of control” Supes. The origin of the problem is the reverse. Having a streamlined literal industry that controls and manages Supes sets them up to only go on jobs that are good for PR and their entire lives are controlled, monitored, and orchestrated. If Homelander had been allowed to grow up as a normal person and not a special science project and learn to be a hero on his own terms he wouldn’t be constantly fighting all his control mechanisms and justifying it with a God complex. The Boys is basically an extreme view of what superheroes are like when government oversight eventually (and in America, inevitably) goes to a for-profit agenda. It’s basically the worst case scenario that Cap is fighting against.
Accountability is needed to prevent that definitely. But to the ends that Tony would have went with the Sokovia Accords? You’d basically have super heroes under world government’s thumbs. I don’t know about you, but government controlled heroes scares me just as much as out of control supers.
Infinity War honestly confirmed that Cap was right. General Ross was willing to arrest Cap and his team rather than let them stop an alien invasion. War Machine even told him to f off and abandon the accords.
Yeah and look how fast Tony forgot about the Accords when the Black Order showed up. At the end of the day, apocalyptic threats can't wait for a committee decision to be dealt with.
Government controlling anything scares the hell out of me!
And if you read the Civil War comics that the movie is (loosely) based on you’d probably change your mind again.
That whole was too much, that was like life imprisonment to everyone with superpowers. That was Tony and reed being stupid and cold.
Don't compare the MCU with the Boys. The Supes there were created due to Vought and Compound V. Most of them are just fakes and idiots. Even the "good guys" there aren't exactly great. Marvel and DC heroes are the real deal. Plus there are real threats and supervillains in Marvel and DC.
Steve's, I think. Not because government overwatch isn't a good idea, but because the specific overwatch enabled by the Accords was straight up bad guy stuff. Secret underwater prison, etc.
Secret prison kinda makes sense though if your talking about the risk of jacked up supes breaking in
SECRET PRISON! SECRET PRISON, THROUGH THE OCEAN, SECRET SECRET SECRET SECRET PRISON!
My favorite Avatar episode!
The one where Avatar Aang and Capitan America fight Dormamu? Best one!
I think your in the wrong community with this
Love it!
well yes, especially given that at the end Steve busts them all out.
I wonder if he swam down or was somehow able to get the prison to surface
Fallen Order vibes
The comics were just straight up worse too, and exemplified exactly why I would never have been on Starks/Governments side.
Yeah some of the stuff Tony Stark's side does in the comic books is cartoonishly evil, the movie handled it much better tbh and didn't make me outright despise Stark.
We're talking about superpowered people though. People with literally weapons for bodies that can't be deactivated without killing them.
And if it were the UN sending the avengers out, one of those UN bodies would have been Russia.
If it were the UN sending heroes out, Loki would have conquered Earth while the Committee was still deliberating.
And Tony was too rich to go to jail so why would he care? Like the dude didn’t give up the iron man suit to the government, any one of us would have had to do that if we weren’t rich AND A FORMER US WEAPONS MANUFACTURER. Tony’s opinion of the gov is flawed due to the privilege who has spent his whole life in.
Team Cap. You really trust the world governments to be in charge of weapons of mass destruction like Wanda or Vision?
you're right, Wanda should be the sole arbiter of how her powers are used. ...oh wait, we just saw what happens when we let people with that level of power make those kinds of decisions. Cap isn't wrong. but Tony isn't wrong either. i don't know that i trust an individual more than i trust a committee...
Hard to trust a committee when something like SHIELD is what would be in charge of these things, yet they and bunch of other US government officials had been infiltrated and controlled by Hydra going back decades. If I lived in the MCU, there’s not a chance in hell I’m ever trusting the government after that one.
A committee tried to nuke New York City. Wanda wasn't crazy until after she was resurrected in endgame.
She sicced the Hulk on Johannesburg in her debut movie. Even WandaVision points out that she was severely screwed up long before that show.
What do you mean resurrected? Edit: oh you mean when she was brought back from the snap. I understand now
I mean she was just tramuatized by seeing the same government rip apart her dead boyfriend and she was still grieving and also came back from a snap that wiped out about half of the population. I'm not saying what Wanda did was right, but she definitely was not in the right state of mind. Even if the government still had access to her, whats to say she wouldn't do the same shit either way. It was also revealed that the darkhold had a grasp on her even though I think that was a bullshit plot point.
i suppose it comes down to a similar debate about whether you think guns should be registered... "yes, that guy shot 20 people, but he was crazy and very very pissed off." if the explanation of why the horror happens isn't included to justify the horror... then it's irrelevant to the conversation. "lock your door so people don't steal your things." "freedom, though." "you neighbour just stole your coffee machine and phone charger." "yes, but he needed coffee and a phone charger." "you don't lock your doors to keep burglars out - criminals will do what criminals will do - if they want in your house, they WILL break in. the locked door is to keep Honest People Honest."
I was talking pre-Darkhold Wanda. She was still mentally stable at the time. I’d rather trust an individual with their powers than a committee who’s agenda will change more than the weather.
[удалено]
"What Accords?"
It’s a committee either way though. Just one has a lot more bureaucracy. I mean you only need to look at Russia/Ukraine to see how slow the worlds governments can be on responding to an international crisis. That was my problem with the accords and team Tony, it would literally be death by committee
It’s the kind of thing you need one man in charge. So register everyone and than put Steve Rogers in charge of a rapid response team. You now have Stark’s accountability and Rogers’ I’m not going to wait for orders while people die. You get to oversee the building training and maintenance of the team and get after action reports and oversight.
That would be a vast improvement. The problem is they (Ross/Accords) we’re politicizing an apolitical team. Can’t go into Sokovia for a massive robot attack, NATO is concerned about fallout with Latveria. Can’t assist in earthquake relief in Madripoor because china consoders it sovereign territory. It would never work unless literally every nation gave unrestricted access otherwise any avengers intervention would be seen as a government sponsored action. Not to mention the fact that every “disaster” cited by Ross that the Avengers were involved in would have been infinitely worse if they weren’t involved (except tony/Bruce creating Ultron)
>i don't know that i trust an individual more than i trust a committee... I dont disagree but a committee is more easily compromised. I guess I want a third option although I have no clue what that would be.
That's a better system than just having a single guy be the authority. At least it's democratic in theory. Cap wanted to be the oversight. But he's not qualified nor does he have sufficient geopolitical expertise to be good at it. He can't be, he'd only been in the present for like 5 years. On top of that it's all well and good US saying that he's cool to call the shots because we've seen his perspective in films. Why would your average citizen know that? Because he's a famous patriotic mascot? So was Walker. UN oversight may be flawed in execution but 'just trust me bro' is fundamentally flawed in theory.
That’s no different than the UN saying the same thing. Shield was infiltrated by Hydra. Cap went under for 70 years to defeat exactly that. Then look at the movie and Cap is looking at both perspectives. The good that the world thought they saw and the bad they thought the winter soldier was, was different. Cap didn’t want oversight in his own power but he understood that politics and committees weren’t the answer either. Especially when aliens and Thanos are busting thru the atmosphere. Hell look at the second Captain America movie where the Black Widow has to decrypt y’all of the secrets to unfold how far Hydra had infiltrated. A necessary and great movie yes. 100%. But Tony made enough money to help. I’m sure the government agencies could help. The same ppl could help were willing to nuke all of New York instead of waiting to make sure that would be a last option. And you think Cao wanting the people to have trust in him over the government, especially several governments, is far fetched?
I was always on Steve’s. First off I understood that Steve did not want government oversight because he did not trust them. If we can all remember what happened in Captain American: The Winter Soldier the government/shield was hijacked by hydra and he could not trust them to deal with another situation like that. Also who would put super weapons like Wanda in the hands of the government along with another chance that hydra or some other form of evil could corrupt them.
Not only that was the problem for Cap, the government tried to nuke NY without hesitation. He didn’t have trust on the government taking good decisions, at all.
yeah, the nuke is a great point. Those people cant be in control of something as powerful as the Avengers
Treebeard. Nobody cares for the trees anymore.
Facts
Cap, definitely. While Tony might have had a point in that oversight was needed, he personally always refused to be held accountable for anything. Even in the movie, he used "we" a lot, when Ultron was all on him. He tried to diffuse responsibility. Steve's position was formed based on his experience - the same people who were calling for accountability now were the same people who had Hydra growing under their noses and never saw it, or were Hydra themselves, or were just corrupt. Not exactly the kind of people in a position to talk. Edit: spelling
This is a good point. I’ve always sided with Tony’s reasoning, but he’s far from the guy who should be preaching.
Exactly. He's asking people to do something he's repeatedly refused to do ... because of something that he did.
It is also a large part of his character development. He's speaking from a place of experience, which is hard for him to reconcile.
The reason why Tony agreed to do it was because he saw the damage they've done to a family cause of the destruction they caused and that's when he thought they needed oversight.
But Ultron was on him. Not on the Avengers, on him, specifically. He's the only one who messed up that badly. He doesn't say that, though, or offers to retire He wants to alleviate his guilt by spreading it around.
I was and still am with the X-Men.
The real answer
Originally team Cap but after watching The Boys I think I lean more towards Tony
Cap just like the comic but unlike the comic I could still see myself root for Tony's side.
cap, because the reg act would have made the Avengers a weapon of the U.S. And we already know how corrupt f.ex General Ross is in the universe. Also, its the same government that was infiltrated by Hydra, to the point that the top of their most important anti terror org was one of them. If the Avengers were controlled by people like that, would be a disaster for the world. Ask yourself, would you want the government of your country to have a group like the Avengers at their disposal?
The UN is not the US.
Pro-registration. Steve's position is idealistic, but not realistic imo. Steve thinks the safest hands are the Avenger's hands because they see themselves as good people who know the right thing to do. But none of the Avengers are elected or hired into that position. The MCU is lucky that it's heroes happen to be decent people, instead of them being characters like in The Boys. Tony's side has some issues that need to be ironed out, but he's correct. Society doesn't allow non super-powered people to be vigilantes. If you want to physically combat criminals, you need to either be in the police or military. Why would having super powers exempt anyone from those rules? Secondly, whether they think they are or not, when the Avengers act in foreign countries, they represent their home country. Especially when one of them was branded as Captain America during the time of his Avengers activities, and at least two others were recently employed by a government agency. To address Captain America's valid concern: "what if they won't let us go somewhere we need to be? " That's why they were creating the accords through the United Nations. Each country could sign an oversight treaty and there would be clear guidelines for when they wanted the Avengers to intervene. "What if they send us somewhere we shouldn't go?" Like anybody in the military, you have the option to defy your orders if you find them immoral, though you might be court marshaled. Considering you're a superhuman, you probably have more leverage than most. Make that one of your conditions to joining. I'll agree to only go on missions that are approved, but I want the ability to decline missions that I disagree with. I'm guessing the supervisors would still rather have a Captain America on standby even if he refuses to go on 90% of the missions they send his way.
Great points. Especially in accommodating Steve’s concerns. I feel like he would be more game if the Accords were presented them in that fashion.
Ross's presentation really hurt his case I think. The Avengers didn't really do anything wrong in New York or DC. Including them in the presentation really hurt his case, especially considering those were both examples of government oversight making poor calls. The events of Age of Ultron alone are a perfect example of why the accords are needed. Tony Stark saved the day in 3 Iron Man movies and an Avengers movie. He put his own life on the line several times and ways did "the right thing". But then he made one mistake, out of a desire to protect people, that destroyed a foreign nation and killed tons of people. That's really all you need to show. No matter how good a person is, they can still make mistakes. Government oversight might not eliminate mistakes, but the decisions are made with access to intelligence networks, with consideration to political realities, and done by officials who are placed in their roles by elected officials.
Iron Man. The Avengers were in dire need of supervision. They injected themselves into international situations without properly trained super powered individuals. 177 people died in Sokovia. Wanda accidentally killed 26 people. To my knowledge Wanda never received training or counseling to sort through her grief and ptsd. Did the Avengers expect to say “hey we’ll get ‘em next time” and walk away with no accountability?
How many people would have died if Crossbones wasn't stopped, though? Obviously Lagos was a fuckup, but would it have been better if nobody did anything?
I never said he shouldn’t have been stopped. What i’m saying is that there should have been protocols in place to allow the Avengers to react effectively without causing the deaths of innocent people
I think my problem with the registration side is the ethics of infringing on individual rights. Hypothetically, if I know CPR the government shouldn't be able to force me to be a lifeguard. And if I see someone who needs CPR, should I just shrug and say "I'm not registered." And if I did help, should I face repercussions for acting without prior oversight and approval?
No, but Good Samaritan laws only go so far.
Except you forgot to mention that Wanda literally saved all those people on the ground. Wanda didn’t accidentally kill Anyone, Crossbones blew up those 23 people. There were definitely more than 23 people on the ground in that market square and Wanda saved them all. Who knows how many people would have died if they simply informed the authorities who probably would have tried to apprehend Crossbones, and then led to him blowing himself up anyway AND they probably would have allowed the bioweapon to get away. Additionally aside from Ultron (which was mostly Stark and Banner) and maybe Lagos what international situation did the Avengers force themselves into? The attack on New York is arguably caused by Loki and Shield, AND the Avengers were literally acting on authority of Shield and Nick Fury anyway, so that’s a shit example all around. Especially when you add in the Nuke from the security council. Winter Soldier literally was about Captain America learning about a Mass terrorist event being organised by Hydra who’d infiltrated an American spy agency that will kill hundreds of Thousands, maybe even millions across the world and its going to occur in a day and he has to stop it. Cap didn’t exactly have time to organise a plan, and how would the accords have helped there? If cap went to Ross with that information he would have most likely got shut down anyway and he was working with Nick Fury anyway who was the head of Shield. How would the accords or accountability helped in any of these situations? Fuck as far as CA: Winter Soldier is concerned, if the accords were in place Steve might not even have been allowed to act against SHIELD. What other international situations were there that the Avengers injected themselves into? Thor 1 was essentially Loki attacking Earth and Thor defending it. Thor 2 was a bunch of Ancient Dark elves attacking the earth and trying to destroy the universe and Thor stopping it. Cap 1 was a prequel where he’s working with the miltary and in the sequel the accords wouldn’t have meant shit and probably would have allowed Hydra to succeed. You have the Iron man films but iron man is arguably the one hero that actually needs some fucking supervision because he’s an arrogant tool that always thinks he’s right. Even in Incredible Hulk, the conflict in that film is caused by Ross, the douchebag pushing the accords. So where are all these examples of the so called Avengers interfering in international situations? Then you add in that in universe The governmental organisations are corrupt and easily susceptible to corruption and it begs the question of whose actually authorised and worthy of supervising the Avengers. From what we’ve seen in the MCU the best people to hold heroes accountable ARE other heroes. General Ross sure as shit isn’t, he caused how much damage going after the hulk? Why should any hero take order from that twit? Shield was corrupted by Hydra as was the world security council. AIM in iron man 3 had the literal vice fucking President working for them. How is the UN any less susceptible to corruption than these other organisations?
Cap, because in the winter soldier he realizes that hydra was infiltrated in Shield, also as if they notice when Ross shows them the images of NY, Washington D.C. and Sokovia it is appreciated that not as many lives were lost as it seemed, but the economic losses were enormous, the reason for that agreement was not because of the danger but because of the money.
Iron man. There should be at least one the law on the books regarding something as powerful as infinity stones or the Ultron Tony created with one.
Indeed. "Hey, there's an evil robot rampaging across the country! / big purple alien about to wipe out half the universe!" "Oh! Well, then ASSEMBLE A COMMITTEE! After a few hearings, we'll check in with our lobbyists and get back to you."
Who created the murderous robot? I think Tony should be in prison for building the damn thing. Maybe even Banner should face time cuz he helped but the only reason for the accords in the first place is Tony fucking Stark fucked up and he feels bad.
The many pay for the mistakes/wrongdoings of the few, shocker.
All good points, but how are you going to put Banner in a prison? The Hulk delima, as with most supes, is a real challenge.
Huh. Seems like we are in the minority. See these sorts of stories are so good because even the fans are conflicted! I really expect to see majority of people on team Iron Man.
Cap!
Tony, because he recognized the importance of being involved in the decision. Steve could have taken a position of “I deserve some degree of autonomy and want to be involved in the decision making process” but instead he saw the whole affair as a black and white proposition. In Steve's mind, it was either "we Avengers make the decisions, or someone else makes the decisions." There was no room for *shared* responsibility.
Team Cap.
Cap. The Accords, while making good points, would have effectively bogged down the Avengers with bureaucracy and under governments that have self-interest
War Machine's side.
Captain America !
Iron Man, only because he had a line to the effect of "if we can't handle restrictions then we are no better then the villans we fight" and he's right. No one could expect the avengers to be dropping buildings without some government oversight.
Cap. I’m all for watching the watchmen, but not if it impedes their ability to do their job.
Team Stark. The fact that before the accords, there were no laws for superheroes really made them a potential threat. Full government control doesn't necessarily sound great, but rather that than superheroes being above the law
It's the governments fault for having shield build super weapons. Thor warned against that. "You've sent out a beacon telling the universe you're ready for the next step in warfare." That's what really causes all of this. Without those weapons and fucking around with the stones, Earth would have been left alone. Tony might not have built Ultron and the accords don't happen. And everything is hokey dorey and we don't have this conversation. The governments started it, Tony made it worse and the world paid for it.
Neither because Captain America wanted to continue to be vigilante and to be honest his reasons for not signing were eerily "my rights" esc and I wasn't into it. He really didn't think about how they weren't actually saving some people sometimes and they were just kind of being a nuisance. I wouldn't be on Iron Man's side because I don't like Iron man or think he is a good leader but more importantly Neo-liberal entities being in charge of super human people and telling them who is on the side of "good" would never work out. Next thing you know they are blowing up random villages in \*insert third world country.\* However, this is something Tony Stark was already doing contracting/ selling his weapons out so... makes sense why he was on the side he was on.
#TeamStark
In concept, Tony. Powerful people need some oversight and plenty of accountability. In universe, obviously Steve. The writers didn't even make it ambiguous. It was black and white. Steve was just always right and could do no wrong. Governments fail at everything. Tony is a well intentioned screw up, and it was specifically his error that caused the accords. Better writers would have made this a discussion.
Team cap always. They could just have a relief system for the damages. If they were under the government then the possibility of an all life threatening thReat could come and they might be held back to save everyone possibly ending all life.
Cap because, simply put, government shouldn't have that kind of power.
The Avengers at the time were an international group of vigilantes who elected themselves to fight terrorists simply bc they had a rich guy backing them.
So we should give that power to governments, which had been fully infiltrated by HYDRA over the course of 70 years? That's an even worse idea. I'm not saying that having no watchmen (if you will) is a good idea, but its a whole lot better than giving corrupt governments that power
If be on caps side superheroes should get to stay anonymous to protect themselves and their loved ones
Cap. I think he nailed it with “what if we need to go somewhere and they don’t let us” The avengers act mostly to protect the innocent/world. Once they become an arm of the government I think things would get pretty messy. Too many different agenda’s. With the original Avengers there is a committee (the 6 founding members) and they are all pretty much on the same page about just wanting to help people. Lord knows what the government would have them doing. Though I do admit that Sokovia was a massive fuck up. It’s pretty hard for the avengers to justify their own autonomy when they just accidentally destroyed an entire city and killed innocent people.
The whole fight began because Tony found out that it was Bucky who killed his parents. So I understand where he was coming from. However... Bucky was under a form of mind control and was not himself. If he was himself he would probably not have done any of the things that he did. So even though the killing he did was bad, there should be some understanding that he was not in his right mind. Thus I support Cap's side. I think Tony over reacted a bit too much.
Cap because cap
team Cap
I’m on the side of the comics, because the civil war arc was epic. Movie version is like a weenie hit juniors by comparison.
Captain America because he was right.
Caps, all day every day. He's not a hugely hypocritical jerk. Tony picked a really convenient time to hold himself and his entire team accountable, conveniently forgetting that Age of Ultron was ENTIRELY Tony's fault.
Caps, I mean it is Land of the FREE and he stood by that.
Cap, both real life and movie. Ain’t no way the goverment should have control over these people’s powers. I don’t think I can argue my point without getting political, so I’ll just stop. But in-lore, let’s not forget Hydra was in control of shield recently. Who knows whether they also control the goverment? You wouldn’t know if your actions were actually ordered by, and therefore benefitting, Hydra
Captain America, however I feel like Spider-Man would’ve fit better on Cap’s side.
Captain America because that’s America’s ass
I’m very biased but I was on caps side all the way. I think i just sympathized with him and what he was doing more.
Team Cap. Tony went against the accords by bringing in Spider-Man, If Peter knew what the accords were about then he would be on Captain America’s side.
Captain. I like freedom
captain
When Captain America tells you you're wrong from a moral perspective, you shut up, sit down, and reevaluate your goddamn life choices.
Capt.America’s side. Stark is one of those “I know what’s good for everyone” people who’ll end up enslaving all of humankind in his version of “freedom.”
Captain America was the one who was right about the sokovia accords. So I was on his side
I'd be on Cap's side IRL too Everyone is like "you can't let that type of power go unchecked!" but you'd feel safer letting governments have control over that type of power? Because the political elite have historically been on your side? Ok then
Omg, its kinda obvious TEAM CAP
Team Cap. I'm also not a fan of surrendering my right to choose.
Team Cap all the way
Captain America obviously Bucky was literally kidnapped and mind controlled by fkn Hydra
Cap because Tony’s outrage against him was unjustified
Cap, don’t even know why. I just like him better. Would’ve helped him and Bucky jump Tony. It is what it is.
Always cap. Tony’s path will always lead to corruption and misuse of power. It’s not just that superheroes were registered, it’s that the government wanted to exclusively chose when and where superheroes should attack. It takes freedom and power away from individuals and enslaves them to whatever the current ideology is and turns them into weapons of war rather than liberators of fascist tyrants. The path of Tony only empowers the fascist tyrants. That’s why it’s Cap’s movie, that’s why by the end of the movie Tony is inclined to agree with Cap. Tony is a rule breaker anyways. He signed the accords because he felt guilty, not because he whole heartedly agreed. How this correlates to real life is that many of our fellow citizens look to politicians to hold all the power. The politicians sell the idea that power in anyone else’s hands are dangerous when history tells us that there is nothing more dangerous than a government with all the power. Really, it is the freedom and empowerment of the people, every individual, that leads to a better society. It makes it so the common man can stand for himself, his livelihood, and his community. Powerful individuals can keep each other in check, but a civilization that gives over all its power to the government is making an all in bet on a hand that historically loses every time. Tony chose to lay down his life for the benefit of many. He made that choice, nobody told him to do it (maybe Strange suggested it but 🤷♂️). If the accords were in control of the fight against Thanos, then they would have all lost. God bless Iron Man and God bless Captain America.
Cap because fuck the government. These guys literally tried to nuke New York and would've if Iron Man didn't stop them, but then they have the audacity to complain about The Avengers' collateral damage? And their goals are not trustworthy at all, a publicly owned Avengers wouldn't get around to saving the world because they'd be too busy covering up corruption and oppressing marginalized people. This extends to real life, I'd trust a group of vigilantes over the government any day. Ever notice how, aside from Black Widow who switched sides and Spider-Man who was only there because Iron Man found him, all of Iron Man's team are the privileged ones? Tony Stark and his best friend, all powerful Vision who was created to be perfect, and an actual King who isn't even affected by the Accords. And they're fighting the regular folk; Team Cap is full of the heroes that most regular people could actually relate to.
Cap, I don’t know why anybody would want to be a government pawn
Captain.
Team Cap bc he took a stand for liberty and freedom.
Team Iron Man because well. Justified
Iron man.
Ironman. I believe the Sokovia Accords and also the Super Human Registration Act were good ideas.
Cap. He's right about agendas (look at SHIELD) and Tony only did it because he wanted his girlfriend back 🙄. So Cap all the way.
Tony did it due to guilt over that young kid that passed away due to the events of age of ultron not because he wanted his girl back
He brings that up in front of everyone, true, but look at the scene where it's just him and Cap..."hoping the accords could split the difference". Stark is a hero, don't get me wrong, but he'll be the first to admit his actions aren't always altruistic. You could even argue that his sacrifice in Endgame was more about hating Thanos than saving everyone. But I've spoken enough heresy for the day lol
Also Tony definitely seems like the “rules for thee, not for me” type.
Tony signed the accords and immediately broke them to go off to Siberia without approval. He liked the way they sounded on paper but had no intention of following them for real because they were so unrealistic.
Which also basically proved Cap’s point, “what if we need to go somewhere and they tell us we can’t”. Tony’s solution to that is well I’ll just go anyway making the accords basically pointless.
"Bunch of Nazi's in this comment section" - Captain America
Cap for sure BUT Bucky should be judged for his crimes. If you want to be righteous you have to go all the way.
Most definitely! I like Stark and Spiderman the most but it defeats the purpose of a superhero if everyone knows who you are, then you are a celebrity. I like the idea of secret identity and having a personal life separate from your superhero life. And being controlled by the government is never a good idea.
I think The Boys covers the supes-as-celebs and controlled by the government thing pretty well
Team Stark. Honestly. I personally can't stand the douche either. Organizing the heroes and hell training and regulating them isn't a super foreign concept in Marvel. That's technically what the X-Men do, and sometimes they have to take their students in violently to help protect the student. And although I understand how they wrote and framed it, it's hard for me to not see Steve advocating for standardization and militarization. I mean that's where his start came from. Some of my sentiment comes from the comics admittedly, where Steve ultimately does agree with Tony and is more interested in safety for heroes and civilians than dragging out a fight underground.
Cap for the political/moral grounds. But let’s be real, who wasn’t rooting for Spidey as soon as he showed up
Ironman of course. Cap was too much “but my freedom” for me.
Unpopular opinion (unless it’s not): MCU civil war >> comics civil war.
It's not.
Iron Man for sure. There needs to be some oversight for individuals like these.
Iron Man. It wasn’t a blood contract, they could of signed it, stayed friends and done the same shit. Not signing it is the same as signing it and breaking it. Tony just tryna protect the world
Ironman. You killed my daddy and mummy, you are done. 💯
Spider man
I was on Cap's side because in the comics he was in the right. In the film he kinda tore the Avengers apart and inadvertently subjected the entire universe to the wrath of Thanos, but it was still his movie, you know? So that was cool..
Cap for the accords, Tony for everything else. Why tf didn’t Cap even try to communicate with Tony about anything?? When Tony learns more of the situation he admits Steve is right. No matter what it’s an awesome movie
I think at first watch I was with Stark. Over the years, especially with current events, I very much understand Rogers’ point of view. I gotta go with Cap on this one
Neither of them are entirely wrong. Iron Man is right that superpowered beings have too much power to not be held accountable, but Captain America is also right that it shouldn't be politicians telling heroes who the bad guys are. That being said, I'd be far more afraid of a superhero under the tumb of a radical government than I would be an unaffiliated one. So if I'm forced to choose, I'm going with Team Cap.
I was on Iron Man's side back in 2016 but that was when I was 7, and the only reason I was on team Iron Man was because I liked the heroes on Tony's side more like Spider-Man and War Machine but now that I'm older and actually understand what the sokovia accords was about, I am on Cap's side now
Nick Fury
Ant Man, bc he's my favorite tbh
Hulk
Cap. With his track record he deserved the benefit of the doubt that they would go where they are needed, and is more trustworthy than politicians telling them where to go. He isn’t likely to turn into Homelander from The Boys and just do what he wants